PDA

View Full Version : How are we not talking about what's going on in Egypt?



pghin08
02-03-2011, 11:30 AM
This has taken way to long to start. Some talking points:

1. Who do you side with? Mubarak supporters (would love to hear your defense, if you have one) or protestors?

2. What do you think this means for the US? Given that Egypt has been our steadiest ally in the middle east for the better part of 3 decades, how should we play our cards in this one? I'm pretty sure that Egypt is the second largest recipient of US aid.

3. Do you think the Muslim Brotherhood group could eventually rise to power in Egypt? If so, how does the Democratic movement in Egypt proceed?

4. If a new democracy comes to be in Egypt, how do we then look at the Bush presidency? I've been thinking about it myself, and even as a staunch Bush critic, he might have been right. He said all along that if we could get a democracy working in Iraq, countries in the middle east would possibly follow suit.

5. If Egypt ousts Mubarek (forcibly removes him, not just keeping him out of the next "election"), who's next in the middle east? Is Ahmedinijad unpopular enough with the youth of Iran that we could see something similar?


If you have other things, let 'er rip. I personally think we're seeing the most globally significant event of this century happening in Tunisia/Egypt/Jordan/Yemen and the sorts.

duane1969
02-03-2011, 12:11 PM
1. Don't care either way. They just need to resolve it without violence and affecting the international community.

2. Ever heard of Israel? I have never seen Egypt as a true ally. They profit from oil...that is where their allegiance lies.

3. If they do then it is just one more Middle East country with a bleak future.

4. Bush will never get credit for being right about anything. Obama will be praised if things in Egypt turn into a democracy even tho he hasn't done anything to influence it.

5. Iran and Egypt are vastly different IMO. Iran is too much of a police state for that to happen. Just like Saddam Hussein I think Ahmedinijad would quietly have a few hundred thousand people eliminated and the problem would be squelched. He will not relinquish power without mass genocide of the opposition on his way out.

Star_Cards
02-03-2011, 12:18 PM
I don't know too much about the situation, but it seems like 30 years in power for one person is way too much. I'm not sure about the percentages of the population that want this guy out, but it seems like there's a need for a change in power. Obviously it would be good if the person that steps in is willing to be an ally to the US well as others, but I don't think we should really make a play to place someone or even back someone.

I actually can see something like this happening in Iraq in the next decade. It would take people that are truly willing to give up everything for the freedom of the country, but definitely can see it happening.

pghin08
02-03-2011, 01:13 PM
1. Don't care either way. They just need to resolve it without violence and affecting the international community.

2. Ever heard of Israel? I have never seen Egypt as a true ally. They profit from oil...that is where their allegiance lies.

3. If they do then it is just one more Middle East country with a bleak future.

4. Bush will never get credit for being right about anything. Obama will be praised if things in Egypt turn into a democracy even tho he hasn't done anything to influence it.

5. Iran and Egypt are vastly different IMO. Iran is too much of a police state for that to happen. Just like Saddam Hussein I think Ahmedinijad would quietly have a few hundred thousand people eliminated and the problem would be squelched. He will not relinquish power without mass genocide of the opposition on his way out.


1. This can't be done without affecting the international community. Not at this point.

2. You're right. The only reason we give Egypt as much as we do is because their basically Israel's lone "friend" out there.

3. Yup.

4. I don't think that's the case. You know me, I don't exactly sing Bush's praises. But I would like to think that people are reasonable enough to notice that he had a lot to do with this. More so than Obama. He deserves credit when credit is due.

5. See, I don't think Iran and Egypt are wildly different. Both have EXTREMELY young populations (2/3 of Egyptians have never known another leader than Mubarek), and that younger population holds one thing to be of great importance: Money. Through our increasingly globalized world, countries that have previously been somewhat shut out from the western world are beginning to see exactly what our lives are like and what kinds of freedoms we enjoy. That's one of the reasons the movement in Egypt has become what it is. Granted, I'm with you on the fact that the two countries are different in their media. But Iranians aren't stupid, they see these things.

I agree about Ahmedinijad's likely behavior. Any revolutionary change brought about in Iran will be drawn-out and very painful for the Iranian people.

duane1969
02-03-2011, 04:29 PM
4. I don't think that's the case. You know me, I don't exactly sing Bush's praises. But I would like to think that people are reasonable enough to notice that he had a lot to do with this. More so than Obama. He deserves credit when credit is due.

5. See, I don't think Iran and Egypt are wildly different. Both have EXTREMELY young populations (2/3 of Egyptians have never known another leader than Mubarek), and that younger population holds one thing to be of great importance: Money. Through our increasingly globalized world, countries that have previously been somewhat shut out from the western world are beginning to see exactly what our lives are like and what kinds of freedoms we enjoy. That's one of the reasons the movement in Egypt has become what it is. Granted, I'm with you on the fact that the two countries are different in their media. But Iranians aren't stupid, they see these things.

I agree about Ahmedinijad's likely behavior. Any revolutionary change brought about in Iran will be drawn-out and very painful for the Iranian people.

4.) The current media praises Obama for the slightest of successes and blames Bush for Obama's every failure and shortcoming. Any steps towards a democracy in Egypt will be credited to Obama (if any US politican). The only word you will hear of Bush will be on FoxNews which will be ignored and discounted as partisan attempts to steal the glory from Obama.

The current media is so pro-left right now that they can't even turn right when their GPS tells them to. Expecting them to point out that Bush predicted/suggested this is out of the question in their minds.

5) I think where Iran and Egypt differ is outside influence. Iran controls everything. Except for some short-wave radios that broadcast into Iran and a smattering of satellite TV, Iranians only know what the government lets them know. There is a good chance that most Iranians don't know the full scope of what is going on in Egypt right now. The Iranian government blocks access to websites about politics, religions (other than the aproved religion), human rights...they even block YouTube and Facebook.

My point is this. If you put a puppy in a box and keep him there while he grows up then he never learns that there is a sun and wind and dirt and grass. All he knows is the box. Ahmadinejad and his predecessors have kept Iran in a box for decades.

pghin08
02-03-2011, 06:39 PM
4.) The current media praises Obama for the slightest of successes and blames Bush for Obama's every failure and shortcoming. Any steps towards a democracy in Egypt will be credited to Obama (if any US politican). The only word you will hear of Bush will be on FoxNews which will be ignored and discounted as partisan attempts to steal the glory from Obama.

The current media is so pro-left right now that they can't even turn right when their GPS tells them to. Expecting them to point out that Bush predicted/suggested this is out of the question in their minds.

5) I think where Iran and Egypt differ is outside influence. Iran controls everything. Except for some short-wave radios that broadcast into Iran and a smattering of satellite TV, Iranians only know what the government lets them know. There is a good chance that most Iranians don't know the full scope of what is going on in Egypt right now. The Iranian government blocks access to websites about politics, religions (other than the aproved religion), human rights...they even block YouTube and Facebook.

My point is this. If you put a puppy in a box and keep him there while he grows up then he never learns that there is a sun and wind and dirt and grass. All he knows is the box. Ahmadinejad and his predecessors have kept Iran in a box for decades.


4) You and I are just going to disagree on this. But did you see CNN's coverage of the SOTU? They LAMBASTED Obama. Fox News had far more favorable coverage. Two years ago? Yeah, I'd buy that. Obama was new and fresh and his approval rating was through the roof. But most things I see (aside from fairly even-keeled coverage for the last month) are very critical of Obama.

5) I agree. But that can't last forever. Just like it didn't last forever in China and other places. In order for that to happen, the inner forces (Iranian government) need to be more powerful than the outer forces (internet/western society). That's just unsustainable. It's impossible to think that aspects of western society haven't leaked into Iran. And it's like having a crack in your car windshield. The longer it exists, the wider it gets, until finally you're shoveling snow off your dashboard.

sanfran22
02-03-2011, 07:08 PM
4) You and I are just going to disagree on this. But did you see CNN's coverage of the SOTU? They LAMBASTED Obama. Fox News had far more favorable coverage. Two years ago? Yeah, I'd buy that. Obama was new and fresh and his approval rating was through the roof. But most things I see (aside from fairly even-keeled coverage for the last month) are very critical of Obama.

5) I agree. But that can't last forever. Just like it didn't last forever in China and other places. In order for that to happen, the inner forces (Iranian government) need to be more powerful than the outer forces (internet/western society). That's just unsustainable. It's impossible to think that aspects of western society haven't leaked into Iran. And it's like having a crack in your car windshield. The longer it exists, the wider it gets, until finally you're shoveling snow off your dashboard.

My question would be what did CNN blast Obama about? That would speak volumes......
My quick take on this subject, this is a pretty big deal that very easily could lead to a third world war. Isreal would be surrounded by radical Islam if the brotherhood take control. If that happens, we would most certainly be forced to decide how close our alliance with Isreal really is. i just hope it doesn't happen with Obama in office. But I believe it is going to happen regardless. Most likely in the next 5-10 yrs or so.

pghin08
02-03-2011, 07:32 PM
My question would be what did CNN blast Obama about? That would speak volumes......
My quick take on this subject, this is a pretty big deal that very easily could lead to a third world war. Isreal would be surrounded by radical Islam if the brotherhood take control. If that happens, we would most certainly be forced to decide how close our alliance with Isreal really is. i just hope it doesn't happen with Obama in office. But I believe it is going to happen regardless. Most likely in the next 5-10 yrs or so.

I think the exact opposite will happen. The movements going on in the Middle East, in the long-term, I think will be beneficial to the US. Just like ol' W said.

sanfran22
02-03-2011, 08:51 PM
I think the exact opposite will happen. The movements going on in the Middle East, in the long-term, I think will be beneficial to the US. Just like ol' W said.
I don't know man, I'm very suspect. Those movements brought us ahmadjinidad, hamas, hezbollah ect........I'm not sure these folks grasp the concept of freedom.

pghin08
02-03-2011, 09:28 PM
I don't know man, I'm very suspect. Those movements brought us ahmadjinidad, hamas, hezbollah ect........I'm not sure these folks grasp the concept of freedom.

This is Egypt though. They're a far more refined country (okay, well, Cairo and Alexandria are) and the leader they're dealing with isn't a murderous dictator. I think this has a lot of potential. But hey, all we can do from here is watch.

theonedru
02-04-2011, 03:41 AM
I look at it everyday and see brave souls who are willing to give their lives so that their families and fellow countrymen can know true freedom from the regime that terrorizes them. We can look at this and learn alot about what true love, respect and honor really is.

limitedplay50
02-04-2011, 04:14 AM
This isnt about a revolution. Its about the US being in a bubble for now.
QE has destabilzed the US currency abroad, thus Egypt being a large recipient of US aid now is basically importing inflation from us.
The people were allready poor now they are worse.

Im pretty sure this is not what Bush refered to as a "velvet revoltion"
this looks pretty bad.

pwaldo
02-05-2011, 07:40 PM
I look at it everyday and see brave souls who are willing to give their lives so that their families and fellow countrymen can know true freedom from the regime that terrorizes them. We can look at this and learn alot about what true love, respect and honor really is.

Do you really think that they will get a better regime? They have a secular government that will probably be replaced with a moderate to extreme religious one where they will have even LESS freedom. If that is what they want then so be it but don't tell me you can't stand a dictator because he is so "awful" and then want to bring in rules where people are put in prison for holding hands in public or where a rape victim is stoned to death.

theonedru
02-06-2011, 02:53 AM
Way to show love and support for your fellow man people, and we wonder why people hate America so much. Seriously I just get totally disgusted sometimes when people open their blow holes and say the most ignorant things. There are people dying over the chance to over throw this guy and maybe have a better life and all people can do is just post here ridiculing them. I hope someday you have to walk int their shoes maybe then you will have a little more love and compassion for humanity.

pwaldo
02-06-2011, 04:23 PM
Way to show love and support for your fellow man people, and we wonder why people hate America so much. Seriously I just get totally disgusted sometimes when people open their blow holes and say the most ignorant things. There are people dying over the chance to over throw this guy and maybe have a better life and all people can do is just post here ridiculing them. I hope someday you have to walk int their shoes maybe then you will have a little more love and compassion for humanity.

Wishing and getting something are two different things. Do you honestly think it will get better for them? Me saying no isn't ridiculing them it is reality. A new government isn't going to solve their problems and it will probably make them worse. I'd love for it to improve for them and everyone around the world but just because I want global peace doesn't mean it is going to happen.

theonedru
02-06-2011, 10:41 PM
Wishing and getting something are two different things. Do you honestly think it will get better for them? Me saying no isn't ridiculing them it is reality. A new government isn't going to solve their problems and it will probably make them worse. I'd love for it to improve for them and everyone around the world but just because I want global peace doesn't mean it is going to happen.

They live in a dictatorship and things cant get much worse hence change will most likely equate improvement as the gov't has seen that the people have had enough and are willing to stand up and die for what they believe. I chose to think in a positive light as there is enough negativity and death to be had. We but have to look at South Africa, it took only 1 man to change S.A for the better (and no I am not talking about Mandela).

duane1969
02-07-2011, 01:12 PM
They live in a dictatorship and things cant get much worse hence change will most likely equate improvement as the gov't has seen that the people have had enough and are willing to stand up and die for what they believe. I chose to think in a positive light as there is enough negativity and death to be had. We but have to look at South Africa, it took only 1 man to change S.A for the better (and no I am not talking about Mandela).

I, for one, get tired of the double standard that exist. If we get involved in Middle East issues then we are a bunch of elitist Americans that need to mind our own business. If we take a step back and say "It's not our problem" then we are calous and uncaring for our fellow humans.

Make up your mind.

duwal
02-07-2011, 03:18 PM
Way to show love and support for your fellow man people, and we wonder why people hate America so much. Seriously I just get totally disgusted sometimes when people open their blow holes and say the most ignorant things. There are people dying over the chance to over throw this guy and maybe have a better life and all people can do is just post here ridiculing them. I hope someday you have to walk int their shoes maybe then you will have a little more love and compassion for humanity.


I'm sorry, but if it was on the other foot that country and many other would care a lot less about America and say 'not our worries'

theonedru
02-09-2011, 05:56 AM
I'm sorry, but if it was on the other foot that country and many other would care a lot less about America and say 'not our worries'

Forget borders, forget religions and focus on the fact that there are humans dying for the right for a better life. What is so hard to comprehend about this for people in this country

limitedplay50
02-09-2011, 05:59 AM
Forget borders, forget religions and focus on the fact that there are humans dying for the right for a better life. What is so hard to comprehend about this for people in this country



Protesting never works. It always fails.
All that is going to come of this is they will end up with something worse, probably much worse.
Nobody is gonna step except probably the CIA backdoor style.

theonedru
02-09-2011, 12:52 PM
Protesting never works. It always fails.
All that is going to come of this is they will end up with something worse, probably much worse.
Nobody is gonna step except probably the CIA backdoor style.

It took one mans love for his country to free South Africa, So yes protesting does and can work, Be positive

sanfran22
02-09-2011, 12:55 PM
It took one mans love for his country to free South Africa, So yes protesting does and can work, Be positive
I don't know man, South Africa and a muslim stronghold are a bit different....going by the past, the muslim countries have been a tough sell. I'd rather not have the muslim brotherhood in egypt at any cost. It would be a bad thing for all.

pghin08
02-10-2011, 12:45 PM
Looks like Mubarek will step down tonight.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704132204576136101983949120.html?m od=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories

duwal
02-10-2011, 08:18 PM
Looks like Mubarek will step down tonight.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704132204576136101983949120.html?m od=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories



not really stepping down, he's still going to be the President and he merely "says" he's going to delegate power to the VP. Still it means things are going to get worse

pghin08
02-10-2011, 08:57 PM
not really stepping down, he's still going to be the President and he merely "says" he's going to delegate power to the VP. Still it means things are going to get worse

Yup, they certainly botched that. This is going to get really bad, I think.

INTIMADATOR2007
02-10-2011, 10:06 PM
I find it interesting that over here we have our tea parties and we get ridiculed and demeaned ,called racists and every other name in the books , They do the same thing in eygpt with violence and our president applaudes them ?

I am proud of the eygptians for standing up to there dictators ..However it does look like things are going to get worse in eygpt before they get better.

pr0phet
02-11-2011, 02:29 PM
not really stepping down, he's still going to be the President and he merely "says" he's going to delegate power to the VP. Still it means things are going to get worse


It didn't last long. Mubarik is now stepping down fully

Aikman_TheGreat
02-13-2011, 04:16 AM
I find it interesting that over here we have our tea parties and we get ridiculed and demeaned ,called racists and every other name in the books , They do the same thing in eygpt with violence and our president applaudes them ?

I am proud of the eygptians for standing up to there dictators ..However it does look like things are going to get worse in eygpt before they get better.

Interesting point, a lot to think about.

Then again, we also live in a country where if you don't agree with someone you obviously hate their party, sex, and race, instead of just disagreeing with one certain topic. We also live in a country where if one out of 50,000 commits violoence, obviously the other 499,999 are also being violent.

sanfran22
02-16-2011, 10:39 PM
Interesting point, a lot to think about.

Then again, we also live in a country where if you don't agree with someone you obviously hate their party, sex, and race, instead of just disagreeing with one certain topic. We also live in a country where if one out of 50,000 commits violoence, obviously the other 499,999 are also being violent.
Well said. It also seems there are a few forces behind this "revolution" that may be a bit shady.
While I would wish freedom on the entire world, and Mubarek seems like a theif. I would tell the Egyptians to be careful what they wish for and think the whole process out.