PDA

View Full Version : The Unions are full bore now in Wisconsin..



INTIMADATOR2007
02-18-2011, 10:24 PM
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/145033-wisconsin-gov-gop-emboldened-by-protests-

Is asking to pay up to 17% of benefits worth all this . And of course our president has to throw his 2 cents in saying it's an all out assault on Unions ..

pr0phet
02-18-2011, 10:48 PM
What side do you guys want to hear? I work and attend UWSP and I have gotten quite a bit of info on everything LOL.

Depending on who you talk to you get a different answer. I have heard all of the following and then some. I do believe these all have merit as well.

#1)This is Scott Walker attacking those who didn't support him(Emergency workers and officers of the law are exempt from this bill - They both supported Scott Walker)
#2)The state is in a 3.6 billion dollar deficit(This number has been tossed around extensively. This is the most common number.
#3)Wisconsin was set to have a surplus at the end of this fiscal year.(This one upsets me more then anything. These numbers came from a "non partisan" group on a neutral website. Walker spent 141 million in 5 days with a projected surplus of 126 million by the end of the year.
#4)Teachers are overpaid(Depends on where you look. I heard one report on a republican station that said Milwaukee schools average 100k for a starting salary. I can give you 95 other schools who average under 50k for starting salaries. Hell, only a handful of people at UWSP make 6 figures with our chancellor making 200k)
#5)The other big point that is rather upsetting. Walker is URGING this bill through ASAP. The strike by the democrats is fair for the one and only reason that it gives this bill some time in the spot light.

I can go on and on, but this is a good starting point.

sanfran22
02-18-2011, 10:56 PM
I don't think Public employees should be unionized personally. They are paid with tax payers $$$ and should not have sweetheart deals. I heard on the radio today people complaining that we need to think about our children ect, ect.
Really? What does this have to do with the education of our children? The left is nuts with this union crap. These unions do nothing but strongarm the states for perks and job security while the education in the public schools keeps slipping.
If the lefty union hacks really cared about the kids, they would see that school choice and teacher merits would probably be a good thing. Instead they are just concerned at being paid 50-75k per year with benefits until everyone is broke.....
Just my .02 ;)

pr0phet
02-18-2011, 11:47 PM
My sister is going to school to become a teacher. I can tell you that staying in this state is now out the window for her. After spending 5 years in college, what kind of starting salary are you expecting her to get?

When you say 50-75k do you mean with benefits? Everybody makes 50-75k with their benefits package. I can tell you that in this state, over half of these teachers don't enter with a 50k salary.

I will also be the first to admit, everybody needs to make concessions in a time like this. But what is being proposed here is rather excessive.

INTIMADATOR2007
02-18-2011, 11:50 PM
Another thing I don't like about this is ...

http://www.barackobama.com/images/feature/11/02/15-workers_rights.jpg
The Democratic National Committee's (http://topics.politico.com/index.cfm/topic/dnc) Organizing for America arm -- the remnant of the 2008 Obama campaign -- is playing an active role in organizing protests against Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker's attempt to strip most public employees of collective bargaining rights.


If this is really about the local teachers why does Obama's Goons get involed .The turnout would not be half of what it is if the DNC goons weren't BUSED in and givin a free lunch and bus ride ..

pr0phet
02-19-2011, 12:08 AM
I agree, this is a local issue. The estimated crew for this weekend is going to be 40-50K compared to the 7500-15k that has shown up all ready.

INTIMADATOR2007
02-19-2011, 12:41 AM
Some of the folks in the crowd in Wisconsin ..
Below

INTIMADATOR2007
02-19-2011, 12:43 AM
some of the folks in the crowd in wisconsin..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1LeqQbf4Rs&feature=player_embedded

sanfran22
02-19-2011, 09:02 AM
My sister is going to school to become a teacher. I can tell you that staying in this state is now out the window for her. After spending 5 years in college, what kind of starting salary are you expecting her to get?

When you say 50-75k do you mean with benefits? Everybody makes 50-75k with their benefits package. I can tell you that in this state, over half of these teachers don't enter with a 50k salary.

I will also be the first to admit, everybody needs to make concessions in a time like this. But what is being proposed here is rather excessive.
I come from a family of teachers on both sides and have just one question....Was she forced to choose this profession? My sister did not start with a 50k salary, but had it after 4 or 5 years. I am not a teacher and I didn't start with a 50 k salary as well....Also, no one is talking about taking away any salary, they are asking for them to chip in on their benefits. I pay thousands for my health coverage every year.
I'll leave with one more thought, when I was growing up, teaching was a public service that you did because you were compelled to make a difference in peoples lives. When did that change?

sanfran22
02-19-2011, 09:04 AM
Another thing I don't like about this is ...

http://www.barackobama.com/images/feature/11/02/15-workers_rights.jpg
The Democratic National Committee's (http://topics.politico.com/index.cfm/topic/dnc) Organizing for America arm -- the remnant of the 2008 Obama campaign -- is playing an active role in organizing protests against Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker's attempt to strip most public employees of collective bargaining rights.


If this is really about the local teachers why does Obama's Goons get involed .The turnout would not be half of what it is if the DNC goons weren't BUSED in and givin a free lunch and bus ride ..
Lol, don't be fooled., it's not about local anything. Just show show much unions are controlling the White House.....

Theodor Madison
02-19-2011, 10:36 AM
I think unions tend to protect even the bad employees. I Believe there should be drug test and should not be on paid leave until their judgment. There is no reason we should be paying for a portion of their pensions. Many state retired employees tend to get rehired after they leave and still get paid twice. Called double dipping. There are many people in need of jobs. Now is the the time to either negotiate or privatize some jobs out.

Government is getting way to big

pr0phet
02-19-2011, 02:01 PM
I come from a family of teachers on both sides and have just one question....Was she forced to choose this profession? My sister did not start with a 50k salary, but had it after 4 or 5 years. I am not a teacher and I didn't start with a 50 k salary as well....Also, no one is talking about taking away any salary, they are asking for them to chip in on their benefits. I pay thousands for my health coverage every year.
I'll leave with one more thought, when I was growing up, teaching was a public service that you did because you were compelled to make a difference in peoples lives. When did that change?


I can't speak for everybody. But yeah. My sister is doing this because she loves working with young kids. Maybe your area gets quicker raises then I do. I actually have a website that shows salaries for our state but the experience is flawed(I checked this on my school and I know its wrong). I would be happy to post this if anybody wants to find out what for themselves. Be warned, I will fight back on the "experience" comments because they are incorrectly listed on this website. The one thing I don't understand on the quoted post is how her choice of profession should matter. Nobody forces you to do anything. But when you go to school for 5 years, you shouldn't be asked to start at <40k wages. Hell, I went to school for two years and I had an offer for a computer programming job that started at 40k. Granted this was in a higher cost of living area(Deerfield, IL a suburb of Chicago).

In this market everybody has been forced to take cut backs and these people shouldn't be any different. But they state is asking for way too much at an exorbitant pace.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on the bold part. The comparison can be made to daily life. If you were given a weeks worth of food with every paycheck, but then you were forced to pay xx percent towards that food. What other ways do expect those costs to be covered? That cost will come out of their salary.

pr0phet
02-19-2011, 02:05 PM
Some of the folks in the crowd in Wisconsin ..
Below


I don't need to quote the video..... What a bunch of *******. I sure hope that lady just works in Wisconsin and doesn't live here. If they get actually want to do something that was successful in Egypt, well our state will be set back years similar to Egypt.

pr0phet
02-19-2011, 02:13 PM
For those wondering why people outside WI is coming to support the cause.. You got your wish for support to maintain these changes

Yahoo article (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110219/pl_nm/us_wisconsin_protests)
"But the potential for confrontation emerged when the conservative Tea Party movement(Text different due to copy and paste) (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110219/pl_nm/us_wisconsin_protests#) which supports deep budget cuts, announced it would hold a rally supporting the Republicans at the Capitol on Saturday."

I should also mention that nobody in the media knows the ramification of not getting this passed. Originally the estimated layoffs started at 6k jobs. Then it got as high as 12-15k estimated layoffs and now this article states 10k in layoffs.

sanfran22
02-19-2011, 06:02 PM
I can't speak for everybody. But yeah. My sister is doing this because she loves working with young kids. Maybe your area gets quicker raises then I do. I actually have a website that shows salaries for our state but the experience is flawed(I checked this on my school and I know its wrong). I would be happy to post this if anybody wants to find out what for themselves. Be warned, I will fight back on the "experience" comments because they are incorrectly listed on this website. The one thing I don't understand on the quoted post is how her choice of profession should matter. Nobody forces you to do anything. But when you go to school for 5 years, you shouldn't be asked to start at <40k wages. Hell, I went to school for two years and I had an offer for a computer programming job that started at 40k. Granted this was in a higher cost of living area(Deerfield, IL a suburb of Chicago).

In this market everybody has been forced to take cut backs and these people shouldn't be any different. But they state is asking for way too much at an exorbitant pace.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on the bold part. The comparison can be made to daily life. If you were given a weeks worth of food with every paycheck, but then you were forced to pay xx percent towards that food. What other ways do expect those costs to be covered? That cost will come out of their salary.
What should you be "asked" to start at? That's the mentality I just don't agree with. If you don't like it, look somewhere else or find a different profession. As stated before, it is a choice as to what you do with your life. There are no gaurentees and the should be a whole lot less when you chose to be in the public sector..... Last time I checked, 40,000ish is not poverty....

pr0phet
02-19-2011, 09:00 PM
Fair enough. I can respect that point of view. I have just one last question for you then. I would like to think I am in a typical situation that isn't out of line financially.

I am on pace to borrow 30-40k(my first year was 10k) to graduate from a state university. I have minimal financial aid from the family and rely totally on my financial aid to pay bills and tuition.
If I graduate with that figure in mind of 30-40k in debt. What would be your fair wage to earn as a college graduate?

And yes, I did get a job down here. I work 20-25 hours a week. Basically when I have the time to work and not do homework. So I am doing all I can here.

OnePimpTiger
02-19-2011, 10:42 PM
http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/opinion-zone/2011/02/wisconsin-s-comedy-errors-underscores-america-s-entitlement-tragedy

A good article about the situation.

tutall
02-19-2011, 10:51 PM
Fair enough. I can respect that point of view. I have just one last question for you then. I would like to think I am in a typical situation that isn't out of line financially.

I am on pace to borrow 30-40k(my first year was 10k) to graduate from a state university. I have minimal financial aid from the family and rely totally on my financial aid to pay bills and tuition.
If I graduate with that figure in mind of 30-40k in debt. What would be your fair wage to earn as a college graduate?

And yes, I did get a job down here. I work 20-25 hours a week. Basically when I have the time to work and not do homework. So I am doing all I can here.

Your fair wage would be the going rate in that area at that time due to supply and demand principles... I dont like paying anyone more than what I would have to pay to get something done. You can call me check but if you want to work for 50K per year and someone else that has the same qualifications as you will do it for 40 I would hope the going rate would be 40K per year. You are only worth what it takes to replace you. That is why pro athletes make big money and service workers dont make jack. It would be pretty simple to replace a teller at a bank but more difficult to replace a licensed banker.... It would be simple to replace a counter worker at a facst food restaurant but a little tougher to replace a manager... The manager makes more.... It isnt about what someone should start at and if you dont like the pay look for a job with better pay.

The one thing I do agree with however is public unions... I know someone said public employees should not be unionized but that would be setting up issues with elections. Can you imagine an entire police force being democratic while there is a dem as the sherriff and when a repub gets elected he can put in who he wants.... Same with all government employees.... They need some protections I just hate how the power gets abused sometimes.

duane1969
02-19-2011, 11:03 PM
I think it is a tad funny that they start out at $50k or higher and complain over paying $20 or $30 more a month for benefits. A starting teacher here in WV gets just under $31k and health care benefits run around $150 a month for a single person, $350 for a family. So after health benefits, taxes, etc. a single person takes home about $950 every two weeks. A teacher needs close to 20 years in to hit $50k.

sanfran22
02-20-2011, 12:03 AM
http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/opinion-zone/2011/02/wisconsin-s-comedy-errors-underscores-america-s-entitlement-tragedy

A good article about the situation.
That was a good article, sad but true....The taxpayer gravy train needs to be addressed....

sanfran22
02-20-2011, 12:07 AM
Fair enough. I can respect that point of view. I have just one last question for you then. I would like to think I am in a typical situation that isn't out of line financially.

I am on pace to borrow 30-40k(my first year was 10k) to graduate from a state university. I have minimal financial aid from the family and rely totally on my financial aid to pay bills and tuition.
If I graduate with that figure in mind of 30-40k in debt. What would be your fair wage to earn as a college graduate?

And yes, I did get a job down here. I work 20-25 hours a week. Basically when I have the time to work and not do homework. So I am doing all I can here.
I also went to a state university. I actually was going for education and switched it to business...
I am still paying on the loans I had and I have a job that pays me what they think I am worth.
You should only be "worth" what the going rate and your skills dictate.
If your private company wants to pay you 5x what i make for the same job, so be it. it's their choice (and they may be out of business fast) We don't have the choice to put underperforming teachers and schools out of business very often....We as taxpayers don't have any choices when the unions work these sweetheart deals and the schools keep complaining that they have no money so we need to pass a trillion levys each year.
School choice is the only way to go. Competiton will sort out the good and bad....

pr0phet
02-20-2011, 03:06 AM
I think it is a tad funny that they start out at $50k or higher and complain over paying $20 or $30 more a month for benefits. A starting teacher here in WV gets just under $31k and health care benefits run around $150 a month for a single person, $350 for a family. So after health benefits, taxes, etc. a single person takes home about $950 every two weeks. A teacher needs close to 20 years in to hit $50k.

Actually these numbers are between a 5 and 10&#37; cut in pay. Not just 20-30$ a month. I can guarantee you if it was 20-30$ a month you would ONLY hear about the union issues. Most staff at my college will have around 8%. The people I have talked to are going to lose 3500-6k in wages. I deleted the e-mail that showed how much an average 8% cut will actually cost the state. If anybody wants to see this I will try to get it back on Monday.

And using your guys logic the state ranking around mid level for average teacher salary is perfectly acceptable because they are at or above averages of the nation according to this govt website (http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/states/) This site takes some fidgeting, but there are numbers right there for a quick over view.




The one thing I do agree with however is public unions... I know someone said public employees should not be unionized but that would be setting up issues with elections. Can you imagine an entire police force being democratic while there is a dem as the sherriff and when a repub gets elected he can put in who he wants.... Same with all government employees.... They need some protections I just hate how the power gets abused sometimes.
You know its funny you mention this Mitch. NOBODY is mentioning the attack that Walker really has for all of this. I only say this because this bill excludes all police officers, fire fighters and state troopers. All unions who SUPPORTED Walker. Where is the fairness in making this cut across the board.

I put bold in the above section because this is a huge thing that people are forgetting and/or not getting to read because of the media manipulation. And if this isn't that big of deal for everybody. How many of you guys can truly say that they will reduce their salary by even 5%. Nobody wants to take a step back in their careers.

~~~~~~~
Second edit... Our biannual budget is going to be posted very soon. It was delayed to March 1st and should be around that time when its available to the public. How much do you want to bet these cuts are not over.

tutall
02-20-2011, 10:59 AM
One thing I can see from that graph is a higher cost per student which could somewhat be in line with the govs cuts. One thing I dont like though is comparing states to states and run a "national average" That only comes into account if you also adjust it for cost of living adjustments. For instance, in my area my salary is a pretty good one and above the local average. If I made what I make in chicago i cant afford a street corner to put my refrigerator box.

11chaos
02-21-2011, 06:25 AM
Stop the Afghanistan boondogle and we will have enough money to take care of our own people

limitedplay50
02-21-2011, 06:51 AM
Here is where I will start and where this most likely conclude.
How many union members showed up Wed, Thurs, Fri when they should have been at work.
Now how many supporters showed up on Saturday?
The regular has to go to work and pay his/her taxes so the unions can call off sick. The regular working man is paying for them to protest, are you kidding me?
Its just not right, most working men and women would take the deal these people are being offered.

pghin08
02-21-2011, 12:51 PM
Stop the Afghanistan boondogle and we will have enough money to take care of our own people

Boom city. Couldn't agree more.

dherm360
02-21-2011, 01:12 PM
First of all, Walker created this "financial Crisis" in January when he immediately took a surplus and cut taxes for corporations saying "business is open in Wisconsin" and tax cuts for people making over 250000. Well he had to find someone to pay for it.
Also as someone mentioned it would be a pay cut for each employee at an average of 4000.00
One thing I found interesting is they polled 40 random people working in the private sector. Not one had ever applied for a government position saying they could make more in the private sector doing similar work. It doesnt affect them, so they are in favor of this. As long as it doesnt affect you, it is the greatest thing ever.
I voted for Walker but he is taking the wrong approach, I dont know anyone that isnt in favor or paying some into the pension program, and as for health insurance, I am paying more through the county then he is asking, so should I get a decrease in my health insurance premiums?? Its the collective bargaining issue that bothers me. 5 weeks on the job, and the first thing he did as Govenor was to give himself more power through legislation.

If this passes in Wisconsin, every other state will follow

ffman
02-21-2011, 03:40 PM
I think it is a tad funny that they start out at $50k or higher and complain over paying $20 or $30 more a month for benefits. A starting teacher here in WV gets just under $31k and health care benefits run around $150 a month for a single person, $350 for a family. So after health benefits, taxes, etc. a single person takes home about $950 every two weeks. A teacher needs close to 20 years in to hit $50k.

If I remember correctly, the unions and teachers weren't complaining about what they will have to pay - they were complaining about the loss of the CBA.

Here's a very interesting article about Gov. Walker and his claims:

And, for those who refute the source, it also contains a link to a Fiscal Bureau page that verifies its info.

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html

pr0phet
02-21-2011, 04:38 PM
No link available.

Around here its about 50-50 for the staff. Some are upset over the loss of wages. They are dependent on these wages and to take them away is upsetting for many. Others are upset about the CBA loss.

ffman
02-21-2011, 05:23 PM
No link available.

Around here its about 50-50 for the staff. Some are upset over the loss of wages. They are dependent on these wages and to take them away is upsetting for many. Others are upset about the CBA loss.

Thanks, dunno how I forgot that.

limitedplay50
02-21-2011, 05:28 PM
If they arent back to work then they should be fired.
Why am I paying taxes for these people to protest? I have to go to work and they get to march?

pr0phet
02-22-2011, 01:27 PM
For those of you who are upset that people outside Wisconsin are fighting to keep unions

A Utah based firm starting the recall process of 8 WI senate Democrats (http://rhinelanderdailynews.com/articles/2011/02/22/ap-state-wi/wi_wisconsin_budget_recall.txt)

This has to be the biggest slap in the face when it comes to outside involvement.

DunkingDurant35
02-22-2011, 03:32 PM
Its just not right, most working men and women would take the deal these people are being offered.

Yes - I sure would! As someone who expects to get certified to teach in 2012, I would gladly take a $40k job with some pension and 12.6&#37; health care costs! These teachers and others are mad because the proposal is slashing the pension in half and doubling the health care costs, but considering that people in the private sector get NO pension, and most have to pay MORE than 12.6% for health, I think these people protest too much. As for collective bargaining, they can still do that for salaries, so it's not like everything CBA-related is being thrown out the window.

If this comes to Missouri, and the teachers start taking days off to protest, I think I'll just take a big sign to the protests that reads, "I'LL TAKE THE TEACHING JOB YOU DON'T WANT"

pr0phet
02-22-2011, 03:57 PM
Come to WI Khendra. Odds are, there will be a ton of openings in the UW system of education for next school year.

dherm360
02-22-2011, 05:27 PM
Yes - I sure would! As someone who expects to get certified to teach in 2012, I would gladly take a $40k job with some pension and 12.6% health care costs! These teachers and others are mad because the proposal is slashing the pension in half and doubling the health care costs, but considering that people in the private sector get NO pension, and most have to pay MORE than 12.6% for health, I think these people protest too much. As for collective bargaining, they can still do that for salaries, so it's not like everything CBA-related is being thrown out the window.

If this comes to Missouri, and the teachers start taking days off to protest, I think I'll just take a big sign to the protests that reads, "I'LL TAKE THE TEACHING JOB YOU DON'T WANT"

by the time you are certified to teach in 2012, the pension will be higher and insurance will be 20 percent. If collective bargain is eliminated salaries will stay stagnant for several years and that 40000 a year job wont look so sweet to you. I just saw the Detroit is eliminating half of their schools and making class sizes 60 plus per class. Good luck with that

DunkingDurant35
02-22-2011, 07:46 PM
40k won't look great? Um, the most I've ever made in a year is 20k annualized. Trust me, any teaching position looks GREAT to me right now. One man's trash is another person's gold.

sanfran22
02-22-2011, 09:02 PM
40k won't look great? Um, the most I've ever made in a year is 20k annualized. Trust me, any teaching position looks GREAT to me right now. One man's trash is another person's gold.
Agreed....If everyone protesting in WI were fired or quit, there would be a line to the state line for those jobs......

dherm360
02-22-2011, 09:11 PM
they are all teachers for the most part, people would be standing in line, but are they qualified? I'm not in education, but most people do not know what being a teacher entails and the hours outside of the classroom, at least for the quality educators.

I voted for Walker and am in favor of much of what he is doing, because things need to change not only in WI but every state but there are way to many people calling into radio stations and posting on these type of boards that make ignorant posts that do not have all the facts.

DunkingDurant35
02-22-2011, 09:32 PM
they are all teachers for the most part, people would be standing in line, but are they qualified? I'm not in education, but most people do not know what being a teacher entails and the hours outside of the classroom, at least for the quality educators.

Well, I AM in education, and I DO know what being a teacher entails. The criteria have been explained well in my classes.


I voted for Walker and am in favor of much of what he is doing, because things need to change not only in WI but every state but there are way to many people calling into radio stations and posting on these type of boards that make ignorant posts that do not have all the facts."way to" many people? The correct construction is "way too" many people. I learned the difference between "to" and "too" in 4th grade; it's too bad most teachers don't take the time to explain the difference between the two anymore. :winking0071: The word "to" is a preposition; the word "too" means either an excess of something - which you want in your context - or "also," in some other contexts.

Anyway, to address sanfran22's post, I think the youth feel it especially because we don't have the luxury the Boomers and Gen Xers had back in their day when any college degree could prepare people for a plethora of jobs. I'm 26 with a B.A. in English (c um laude 3.75+ GPA graduate) and one year in graduate studies (3.75 GPA there also), but I quickly found out in 2008 and 2009 how little my degree meant in today's world. Not only was I unprepared for the sheer amount of multi-tasking and software experience most clerical jobs require (neither skill was taught to me in college), but my degree alone wasn't valued much, high achievement and all. Nothing humbles a person so quickly as failing in the "real world" because the Ivory Tower things you learned in college just aren't applicable to the jobs available to you. The Boomers and Xers love to whine about how today's youth are "lazier," but they never had to deal with both a massive unemployment rate and a society where a college degree means about as much as a high school degree did in THEIR day! Newsflash, Boomers and Xers: MOST PEOPLE DON'T ENJOY BEING UNEMPLOYED. I'm a rather straight-laced, boring, reserved, over-achieving, bookish nerd, not some welfare drain who smokes crack all day. If you don't believe me, I have some large essays for you to read, and some other document files proving my achievements.

Anyway, rant aside, going back to graduate school was the best decision I made in 2010. I found out I can get a Master of Arts in Teaching (secondary English emphasis) to add to my Bachelor of Arts in English. The certification is the same as Bachelor of Secondary Ed majors, but this degree looks more impressive to potential educational employers because of the Master's advantage. I'm willing to take on whatever additional educational certification I need to make this job work. I know I can outread, outspell, and outwrite most people, so I'm going to make as much use of these "outmoded" skills as I can. If that means teaching to a bunch of disinterested middle or high schoolers at a "mere" 40k salary with 20&#37; health benefits and less of a pension, so be it.

duane1969
02-22-2011, 09:44 PM
I think the funny part in all of this is that what they are trying to push thru in Wis. already exists in other areas and works just fine.

For one, I know that Virginia has no teacher union and they cannot stike over contracts. Yet Virginia ranks 21st in starting salary, has seen a 26&#37; salary increase over the last 10 years and Virginia consistently ranks in the top 10% of the country in quality of education.

Wisconsin, with their unions and right to strike, ranks 49th in starting salary and has gotten a 21.5% salary increase over the last 10 years. Seems to me that being a unionized state isn't helping much.

DunkingDurant35
02-22-2011, 09:54 PM
I think the funny part in all of this is that what they are trying to push thru in Wis. already exists in other areas and works just fine.

For one, I know that Virginia has no teacher union and they cannot stike over contracts. Yet Virginia ranks 21st in starting salary, has seen a 26&#37; salary increase over the last 10 years and Virginia consistently ranks in the top 10% of the country in quality of education.

Wisconsin, with their unions and right to strike, ranks 49th in starting salary and has gotten a 21.5% salary increase over the last 10 years. Seems to me that being a unionized state isn't helping much.

Yes!

I just got a booklet last week from the Missouri NEA titled Professional Rights & Responsibilities, and it was eye-opening to learn that Missouri teachers had NO collective bargaining rights until 2007. A direct quote from page 3:

"Article I, Section 29 of the Missouri Constitution says 'employees shall have the right to bargain collectively through representatives of their own choosing.' On May 29, 2007, the Missouri Supreme Court decided that this provision of the Missouri Constitution applies to public employees. This decision overturned a 60-year-old Missouri Supreme Court case that interpreted that language as excluding public employees (such as employees of a school district). Therefore, public employees in Missouri now have the right to choose an exclusive bargaining representative and to engage in collective bargaining."

My goodness - you wonder how all those teachers survived before. :rolleyes:

dherm360
02-22-2011, 10:10 PM
"way to" many people? The correct construction is "way too" many people. I learned the difference between "to" and "too" in 4th grade; it's too bad most teachers don't take the time to explain the difference between the two anymore. :winking0071: The word "to" is a preposition; the word "too" means either an excess of something - which you want in your context - or "also," in some other contexts.

It was a typo but thanks for the lesson, you will be a great teacher.

DunkingDurant35
02-22-2011, 10:12 PM
That's fair enough; I believe you. I just felt your post about the ignorant posts here may have been applied to me, so I felt it necessary to defend myself and expound upon some things that have been posted previously.

dherm360
02-22-2011, 10:16 PM
It was not, I referred to radio and message boards, for instance, the Wisconsin newspapers have the news story and then you can post a comment relating to the story. I can relate to what you were posting too, two posts ago.

DunkingDurant35
02-22-2011, 10:19 PM
It was not, I referred to radio and message boards, for instance, the Wisconsin newspapers have the news story and then you can post a comment relating to the story. I can relate to what you were posting too, two posts ago.

My fault - I presumed the message boards reference pertained to this one specifically. Anyway, excellent job on the writing above! :cheer2:

INTIMADATOR2007
02-22-2011, 11:33 PM
Are the teachers in WI really looking out for the students ?
From the results they are getting it sure doesn't look like it .
If they were payed on performance they wouldn't have a job !

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/two-thirds-wisconsin-public-school-8th-g


In the National Assessment of Educational Progress tests administered by the U.S. Department of Education in 2009—the latest year available (http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=2010458)—only 32 percent of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders earned a “proficient” rating while another 2 percent earned an “advanced” rating. The other 66 percent of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders earned ratings below “proficient,” including 44 percent who earned a rating of “basic” and 22 percent who earned a rating of “below basic.”

sanfran22
02-22-2011, 11:39 PM
Are the teachers in MI really looking out for the students ?
From the results they are getting it sure doesn't look like it .
If they were payed on performance they wouldn't have a job !

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/two-thirds-wisconsin-public-school-8th-g


In the National Assessment of Educational Progress tests administered by the U.S. Department of Education in 2009—the latest year available (http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=2010458)—only 32 percent of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders earned a “proficient” rating while another 2 percent earned an “advanced” rating. The other 66 percent of Wisconsin public-school eighth graders earned ratings below “proficient,” including 44 percent who earned a rating of “basic” and 22 percent who earned a rating of “below basic.”

You mean WI? On a side note, if any of these teachers had anything to do with these students protesting they should be fired. They do not need to lobby kids to do their work.

INTIMADATOR2007
02-23-2011, 08:25 AM
You mean WI? On a side note, if any of these teachers had anything to do with these students protesting they should be fired. They do not need to lobby kids to do their work.
Yep WI..lol. , I would think that commiting fraud with fake Dr. excuses should get em' fired also . And the Drs. should be repremanded for writing those Fake notes . I wonder if the parents like there kids being used on something they may or may not be for or against ,If my kid was out protesting for a cause that I didn't support I would be upset about that also .

Star_Cards
02-23-2011, 11:04 AM
I don't know all of the exact details and how much they are being asked to pay for their health care costs, but there are a lot of people in the private sector that have been asked to do this for years now. My company started doing this about 4 years ago. They changed health plans to ones that covered a little less and started increasing our premiums a little bit each year. They also froze raises last year for people who made over $50K. Although we had a better year last year than expected and they gave those people a 2% raise at the end of the year. Private sector companies have to do this and I think government "companies" should be no different. Just because a government has the backing of tax dollars to get their funds doesn't mean it's an open bank and they can just raise taxes whenever they want to cover these sorts of things. Seems like what they are asking is fairly reasonable... maybe if they didn't have their current union dues they'd have the extra funds to pay for the healthcare increase.

ffman
02-23-2011, 12:34 PM
And I still forgot the link. Maybe this time it will post.

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html

sanfran22
02-23-2011, 12:49 PM
And I still forgot the link. Maybe this time it will post.

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html
Do we really need to read this crap? I don't feel like picking the whole thing apart but here's a few tidbits...
Despite shortfalls in revenue following the economic downturn that hit its peak with the Bush-era stock market collapse
Nice to see the blame Bush is back.I wondered how long that would take......lol
2. Pay for schemes that redirect state tax dollars to wealthy individuals and corporate interests that have been sources of campaign funding for Walker’s fellow Republicans and special-interest campaigns on their behalf. As Madison’s Democratic state Rep. Brett Hulsey notes, the governor and legislators aligned with him have over the past month given away special-interest favors to every lobby group that came asking, creating zero jobs in the process “but increasing the deficit by more than $100 million.”

Name some if this is true. What was it for? Who did it go to. Why are they so vague??

“• $48 million for private health savings accounts, which primarily benefit the wealthy. A study from the federal Governmental Accountability Office showed the average adjusted gross income of HSA participants was $139,000 and nearly half of HSA participants reported withdrawing nothing from their HSA, evidence that it is serving as a tax shelter for wealthy participants.
I had a HSA. I didn't make 140,000 and it was better then the current plan I have. Also, how ids it a tax shelter? If you take money out for anything but medical you get taxed and penalized. How is it any different then me getting Insurance taken out of my pretax check? Actually, it would be worse if you used the funds....

Nice to see the idiot who wrote this article is well informed......:sign0020:

ffman
02-23-2011, 02:30 PM
Did you even look at the link within the article?

And the author never blamed it on Bush - it was a "Bush-era" stock market collapse, was it not? Just as 9/11 happened during the "Bush-era" - but that doesn't mean 9/11 was his fault.

sanfran22
02-23-2011, 02:34 PM
Did you even look at the link within the article?

And the author never blamed it on Bush - it was a "Bush-era" stock market collapse, was it not? Just as 9/11 happened during the "Bush-era" - but that doesn't mean 9/11 was his fault.
Yes and there was also the biggest wall street gains ever. You never hear about that. It was a shot at Bush, weather you want to admit or not.

ffman
02-23-2011, 02:37 PM
Yes and there was also the biggest wall street gains ever. You never hear about that. It was a shot at Bush, weather you want to admit or not.

No, it was not. The author was mentioning the stock market collapse (Wall Street gains were not relevant in the discussion) - which occurred during the BUSH era.


But, you failed to recognize the important points - Wisconsin was due for a surplus prior to Walker being elected. His bills for special-interest groups helped create this budget "problem" - which he is targeting unions to rectify.

sanfran22
02-23-2011, 02:39 PM
No, it was not. The author was mentioning the stock market collapse (Wall Street gains were not relevant in the discussion) - which occurred during the BUSH era.


But, you failed to recognize the important points - Wisconsin was due for a surplus prior to Walker being elected. His bills for special-interest groups helped create this budget "problem" - which he is targeting unions to rectify.
Believe what you will......:sign0020:
He managed to ruin the budget in just over a month?

ffman
02-23-2011, 02:40 PM
Believe what you will......:sign0020:

Again, did you even read the Fiscal Bureau link that verified the claims in the article?

sanfran22
02-23-2011, 04:35 PM
Again, did you even read the Fiscal Bureau link that verified the claims in the article?
Yeah,
I see estimations, calculation errors, corporate tax revenue is increasing,and the state being caught previously moving funds from untouchable accounts to general funds....just to name a few things.
Did you read past the first chart?

jlzinck
02-24-2011, 11:59 AM
“It is impossible to bargain collectively with the government.”
- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Who knew FDR was a "Tea Bagging Nazi Repubturd":sign0020:

sanfran22
02-24-2011, 03:38 PM
“It is impossible to bargain collectively with the government.”
- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Who knew FDR was a "Tea Bagging Nazi Repubturd":sign0020:
Lol...yeah, I'm no fan of FDR but he was right on public unions.

Star_Cards
02-24-2011, 04:51 PM
I don't have a completely formed opinion on this as far as the collective bargaining thing. So if a union can't collective bargain then there's not really any power to the union, right?

In the past I've been on the side of things that unions really aren't needed these days like they were. There are some examples of unions that help cripple businesses and end up losing jobs in the long run (i.e. some of the auto companies). At the same time I'm sure there are unions that actually help workers be able to earn fair wages while maintaining a viable company that can continue to provide jobs. I guess I'm curious what other people think about the need for unions. Unions are typically pretty polarizing between families that have union jobs and ones that aren't. To me I think there are many types of industry that get along without unions so why do others need them. Do other unionized industry actually influence non union industry? If we had no unions anymore would companies take more advantage? I'd love to see what people think in general.

pr0phet
02-25-2011, 10:24 AM
That is what you are going to start seeing in big business now. Previously unionized jobs are going to have lower starting salaries while the costs of items around them continue to go up.

For those who are bashing the dems for leaving the state. Look like our Assembly tried to do a prime filibuster but it was overridden with a quick open/close vote on the floor

Article can be seen here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110225/ap_on_re_us/us_wisconsin_budget_unions)



Debate had gone on for 60 hours and 15 Democrats were still waiting to speak when the vote started around 1 a.m. Friday. Speaker Pro Tem Bill Kramer, R-Waukesha, opened the roll and closed it within seconds.
Democrats looked around, bewildered. Only 13 of the 38 Democratic members managed to vote in time.


If that isn't enough proof that the only true filibuster is to leave the state, I don't know what is.

Star_Cards
02-25-2011, 10:28 AM
personally I think the fillibuster is complete garbage and both of these tactics shouldn't be used.

pr0phet
02-25-2011, 10:51 AM
On the pure argument alone that the state constitution is flawed because there is no way of expressing your disagreement with the new bills. My previous post was made to show that they have found a way to express their disinterest by leaving. I don't fully agree with it, but it proves to be the only way of conducting a filibuster

sanfran22
02-25-2011, 10:56 AM
That is what you are going to start seeing in big business now. Previously unionized jobs are going to have lower starting salaries while the costs of items around them continue to go up.

For those who are bashing the dems for leaving the state. Look like our Assembly tried to do a prime filibuster but it was overridden with a quick open/close vote on the floor

Article can be seen here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110225/ap_on_re_us/us_wisconsin_budget_unions)




If that isn't enough proof that the only true filibuster is to leave the state, I don't know what is.
I guess the repubs should have ran from Washington when the healthcare bill was rammed through?

Star_Cards
02-25-2011, 11:51 AM
my issue with this or the fillibuster is that both sides should be able to compromise and work out something. I'm sick of each side wanting their way or no way. I get a lot of it is posturing and is part of the negotiations in itself, but they sure do seem to waste a lot of time and tax payer money.

I'd be willing to bet that repubs will start to use this tactic if the opportunity arises.

sanfran22
02-25-2011, 04:28 PM
my issue with this or the fillibuster is that both sides should be able to compromise and work out something. I'm sick of each side wanting their way or no way. I get a lot of it is posturing and is part of the negotiations in itself, but they sure do seem to waste a lot of time and tax payer money.

I'd be willing to bet that repubs will start to use this tactic if the opportunity arises.
Didn't they have the chance federally? They didn't run. They voted and then tried a fillibuster I believe.

Star_Cards
02-26-2011, 01:09 AM
just saying historically both sides do the same stuff and complain when the other does it. maybe i'm skeptical but sort of hard not to be these days. a fillibuster in my mind is just about the same thing.

sanfran22
02-26-2011, 10:28 AM
just saying historically both sides do the same stuff and complain when the other does it. maybe i'm skeptical but sort of hard not to be these days. a fillibuster in my mind is just about the same thing.
I agree with being skeptical, but I don't think they are the same. One put their vote on record and then tried to stop it from happening. The other turned chicken and ran and hid. I hope they all get recalled....

pr0phet
03-01-2011, 11:07 AM
Not to change the subject. But I hope any state who thinks this is right keeps an eye out on our budget that comes out today. Walker has made intentions to cut school by nearly 10&#37;. In an economy where schools continue to shut down because funding is extremely limited, your talking more away from the education of the children. He also threatens that if the democrats don't get back to the senate soon people will lose jobs. Well guess what, if your cutting school funding by 10%, your going to be cutting jobs too.

sanfran22
03-01-2011, 11:12 AM
Not to change the subject. But I hope any state who thinks this is right keeps an eye out on our budget that comes out today. Walker has made intentions to cut school by nearly 10%. In an economy where schools continue to shut down because funding is extremely limited, your talking more away from the education of the children. He also threatens that if the democrats don't get back to the senate soon people will lose jobs. Well guess what, if your cutting school funding by 10%, your going to be cutting jobs too.
Money doesn't solve any of the schools problems... They keep throwing money at problems and how does that turn out?
How do you know that people will lose jobs? Maybe sports will be pay to play? Extra activities will be cut, ect. I'd cut spending more then that personally. Public education sucks.

pr0phet
03-01-2011, 01:38 PM
Im sorry you feel that way about your public education. I had a school which provided great education for our area. <br />
<br />
As far as losing jobs go.. Here is just a start. This is for my region and...

tutall
03-01-2011, 10:13 PM
There is a ton of waste in public education. First off the amount of paper that is wasted in a school setting each year and the costs for books is ridiculous. Honestly, of the books you used in school how often did you take them home and study? All of those can be found online and would save schools a ton of money. It just takes a little outside thinking but saying the number of teachers jobs it is going to cost is a better way of insighting a little fear in people. What if instead it was going to mean a simple change in a few things. What if instead of going to school 5 days a week kids went 4 days for just an extra hour a day. I just hate when cutting money automatically means cutting teachers but when there is a surplus they dont add teachers... they add programs which for some reason never get cut when the money dries up

INTIMADATOR2007
03-09-2011, 11:12 PM
Looks like the unions lose out , I wonder if we will see Obama in his tennis shoes marching with the unions . He said he would ..
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/09/wisconsin-republicans-plan-pass-budget-democrats-sources-say/

pr0phet
03-10-2011, 01:19 AM
Im honestly confused by this. With the Democrats showing no initiative to come back, why wasn't it done sooner?

Early estimates are for 150k-200k people in Madison this weekend. That will be interesting.

INTIMADATOR2007
03-10-2011, 10:30 PM
A nice litle email to the GOP in wisconsin , I challenge someone to show a tea party anywhere in the country that has acted like these union goons , and most of em' are from out of the state of wisconsin ,none of em' in the videos I've seen storming the capital even look old enough to be in a union . The police have to put a stop to this !


http://www.theblaze.com/stories/you-will-die-read-the-shocking-e-mail-sent-to-wis-gop-senators/

pr0phet
03-11-2011, 02:09 AM
Your honestly shocked by the idea of people sending out death threats!!! People were sending out death threats to Jim Joyce after he blew a call in against Galaraga last year. I'm not shocked in the least bit that this occurred

duane1969
03-11-2011, 12:05 PM
Let me address a couple of things that you mentioned. I also should mention that I am in education. <br />
<br />
1) Paper waste - I agree, there is a lot of paper waste. There is also a lot of effort to be...

pr0phet
03-17-2011, 12:08 PM
While people continue to believe that this bill didn't cut jobs. I am going to post results from the bill.

Cradon Schools looking to cut positions based off of cuts in financial aid (http://www.wjfw.com/stories.html?sku=20110316172650)

Stevens Point loses 61 full time positions within the school (http://www.waow.com/Global/story.asp?S=14267469)

Granted most of the teachers in Stevens Point would still have a job, there is no way to predict how much job loss could occur. There was an addition 2.2 full time positions cut from the budget as a result of this bill.

dherm360
03-17-2011, 06:45 PM
"Wisconsin Open for Business"

A company in Green Bay is packing up, losing 70 jobs, stating the tax credits meant nothing in the decision to move to Indiania

Williy@anker
03-18-2011, 03:47 PM
While people continue to believe that this bill didn't cut jobs. I am going to post results from the bill.

Cradon Schools looking to cut positions based off of cuts in financial aid (http://www.wjfw.com/stories.html?sku=20110316172650)

Stevens Point loses 61 full time positions within the school (http://www.waow.com/Global/story.asp?S=14267469)

Granted most of the teachers in Stevens Point would still have a job, there is no way to predict how much job loss could occur. There was an addition 2.2 full time positions cut from the budget as a result of this bill.


Now is it really the fault of this bill that teachers are going to be laid off. As you may recall late last summer right befroe the new school year Congress held special votes and passed a bill of 26 billion dollars to prevent schools from having to lay off any teachers.
Well now those funds are gone and the lay offs have just been passed down the road another year.
If anything most states are in even worse financial shape for the upcoming year than last year. Add that in with the loss of 26 billion in special federal funding and you are gong to see many states cutting back in education funding and many teachers getting laid off.
Same thing is happening over here in Michigan the proposed budget has major cuts in education spending.

duane1969
03-18-2011, 08:16 PM
Now is it really the fault of this bill that teachers are going to be laid off. As you may recall late last summer right befroe the new school year Congress held special votes and passed a bill of 26 billion dollars to prevent schools from having to lay off any teachers.
Well now those funds are gone and the lay offs have just been passed down the road another year.
If anything most states are in even worse financial shape for the upcoming year than last year. Add that in with the loss of 26 billion in special federal funding and you are gong to see many states cutting back in education funding and many teachers getting laid off.
Same thing is happening over here in Michigan the proposed budget has major cuts in education spending.

Actually a large chunk of that money was used to hire new teachers. Here in our school district there was an influx of new jobs thanks to that funding. Now that the funding is gone all of those people are being sent packing. So technically it is not a layoff, it is just a return to the previous employment numbers. However, those with an agenda wish to ignore that little fact and spin it as a layoff.

Williy@anker
03-18-2011, 08:50 PM
Actually a large chunk of that money was used to hire new teachers. Here in our school district there was an influx of new jobs thanks to that funding. Now that the funding is gone all of those people are being sent packing. So technically it is not a layoff, it is just a return to the previous employment numbers. However, those with an agenda wish to ignore that little fact and spin it as a layoff.


Yes that is correct, the money was supposed to be used in order to avoid any layoffs and as you said many districts saw the money as their own little piggy bank for new hires, who knows why.

the fact is all they did was push the funding crunch back a year.

dherm360
03-18-2011, 09:22 PM
Yeah, a new marketing company is relocating to Wisconsin due to the tax cuts. Here is the catch, its bringing a hundred jobs, but only half have to be offered to Wisconsin residents. The company also gets 500000 for relocating and no taxes corporate or personal for the first two years.

dherm360
03-18-2011, 09:24 PM
Also Walker closed two Juvenile dentention centers (jails) laying off 300 state workers citing a decrease in juvenile crime.

pr0phet
03-18-2011, 09:37 PM
How much of that money reached the small schools. That would be my question.

INTIMADATOR2007
03-18-2011, 10:07 PM
Here in Gerogia we are closing hundreds of schools and are cutting way back on alot of state workers and it's not Scott Walkers fault . The states are BROKE cuts have to be made just like in the private sectors when a company doesnt make money people have to go It sucks but its life . The unions have done there damage to the states now it's time for them to suffer the conciqenses also . What will the union people do if there is NO MONEY for there pay packages still demand it ? It's like getting blood from a turnip its just not going to happen ..

duane1969
03-18-2011, 11:37 PM
Also Walker closed two Juvenile dentention centers (jails) laying off 300 state workers citing a decrease in juvenile crime.

Makes sense to me. If there is no juvenile offenders in the facilities then why pay salaries to keep them open? Assuming an average salary of $30k then that saves the state $9 million.

sanfran22
03-18-2011, 11:41 PM
This thread says a whole lot about some peoples mindsets..... It's kinda sad.

tylermckinzie
03-19-2011, 01:21 AM
The thing is that people draw erroneous conclusions when you try to compare public schools with private sector. For someone in education, let me turn the tables around for a moment. You own a large...

sanfran22
03-19-2011, 09:24 AM
That must be a local rule. My sis is a public school teacher and doesn't live near her school. Also, check out the wages of private vs public teachers. Here, they are not close.

tylermckinzie
03-19-2011, 10:19 AM
That must be a local rule. My sis is a public school teacher and doesn't live near her school. Also, check out the wages of private vs public teachers. Here, they are not close.

Missed the point- talking about the students ("employees" being the ones who produce the "goods", i.e. test scores, measurements, etc.). Just addressing the nature of those who try to use a public sector vs. private sector argument. And those who try to argue money doesn't solve the problem by comparing salaries and achievements of public and private school teachers, well, in the words of Chad Ocho Cinco, "Child Please". Some people are willing to take less money to control who is in their classroom. Let me pick and choose the 25 kids I oversee and my classroom test scores will go up too as opposed to taking 32 who may or may not want to be there ;-)

tutall
03-19-2011, 05:44 PM
My biggest problem with the school argument, is basically the public are the owners in the discussion above not the administrators. My entire family is in education but I really dont know why there...

tylermckinzie
03-19-2011, 07:20 PM
The teachers know their product is not as good as what a private school offers and if money is the issue it no longer becomes an issue. My only complaint is will the government think they have a say in the matter once public funds are going to the private schools.

See, this is where I disagree. I find most students I take in from private schools are behind educationally. However, parents always seems to think their kids are smarter because the schools and the staff routinely tell them that while they are there. And those who like to use the private test scores as a measuring stick, again, let me reiterate, let me choose the kids I teach and my test scores would go up too.

Besides, if you start closing down public schools and sending the students to private schools, then the private schools lose the advantage they have- choice of students and smaller classes.

tutall
03-19-2011, 07:25 PM
The teachers know their product is not as good as what a private school offers and if money is the issue it no longer becomes an issue. My only complaint is will the government think they have a say in the matter once public funds are going to the private schools.

See, this is where I disagree. I find most students I take in from private schools are behind educationally. However, parents always seems to think their kids are smarter because the schools and the staff routinely tell them that while they are there. And those who like to use the private test scores as a measuring stick, again, let me reiterate, let me choose the kids I teach and my test scores would go up too.

Besides, if you start closing down public schools and sending the students to private schools, then the private schools lose the advantage they have- choice of students and smaller classes.

I would venture to guess test scores are higher because the parent is footing the bill for private school and the parent is making sure the student takes advantage of it. I dont think this is going to change it will just allow more students... Maybe I couldnt afford 10K per year to send them to private school but I could afford 4K which is the difference in the 6K the state spends on a childs education. If parents actually had a choice where to send the kids though, schools would have to straighten up or they would have no students. Peoples gravitate to quality so if the school you teach at is the best around you have nothing to worry about. If your school is underperforming, just like in business you run the risk of being shut down.

tylermckinzie
03-19-2011, 07:29 PM
I would venture to guess test scores are higher because the parent is footing the bill for private school and the parent is making sure the student takes advantage of it. I dont think this is going to change it will just allow more students... Maybe I couldnt afford 10K per year to send them to private school but I could afford 4K which is the difference in the 6K the state spends on a childs education. If parents actually had a choice where to send the kids though, schools would have to straighten up or they would have no students. Peoples gravitate to quality so if the school you teach at is the best around you have nothing to worry about. If your school is underperforming, just like in business you run the risk of being shut down.

Can definitely see your argument, but here's the doughnut hole part- what do you do with the kids who's parents can't afford the extra $4K but really want a strong education? Tell them too bad and they can stay at the $6K school with parents and kids who don't care because they can't afford it? It just seems that money can't be the only factor in someone's K-12 education.... that's what college is for ;-)

tutall
03-19-2011, 07:32 PM
Can definitely see your argument, but here's the doughnut hole part- what do you do with the kids who's parents can't afford the extra $4K but really want a strong education? Tell them too bad and they can stay at the $6K school with parents and kids who don't care because they can't afford it? It just seems that money can't be the only factor in someone's K-12 education.... that's what college is for ;-)

What about the person who wants a ferrari but has to settle for a ford tempo? It is the same thing... Everyone is created equal, the difference is what you choose to do with it.

tylermckinzie
03-19-2011, 07:36 PM
What about the person who wants a ferrari but has to settle for a ford tempo? It is the same thing... Everyone is created equal, the difference is what you choose to do with it.

With adults it's one thing- sure someone who drives a Ferrari has perks someone who drives a Tempo doesn't. But those differences in adults are one thing. When you start passing out opportunities based on social status in kindergarten, color me skeptical about being the land of opportunity.

tylermckinzie
03-19-2011, 07:40 PM
And trust me, I do see some validity in your arguments. I do not find the current system to be foolproof my any means, ask any teacher and they have ten suggestions on ways it can be improved. It's just measured in degrees, and I find the proposal to be a bit past my level of comfort ;-)

tutall
03-19-2011, 07:42 PM
With adults it's one thing- sure someone who drives a Ferrari has perks someone who drives a Tempo doesn't. But those differences in adults are one thing. When you start passing out opportunities based on social status in kindergarten, color me skeptical about being the land of opportunity.

Isnt that how it is now? I would venture to guess the area I am in is higher income than say... The South side of Fort Wayne which is close to me. People with higher income would probably move out of Fort Wayne to either a better part of town or to a surrouding community. Isnt that pretty much the same as sending a kid to another school? This just accomplishes it without moving. I think actually by not lettting this happen it decreases the chances to get out of the current situation. We are basically limiting someones education based on factors such as where the parent might work, what kind of housing they can afford, etc....

tylermckinzie
03-19-2011, 07:54 PM
No, the difference I see is when you discuss allowing those to apply their $6K public school fee towards a private education. True, it is $6K towards an education, but it's not like each parent ponied up the $6K, there were a lot of taxpayers who paid those taxes. Are you allowed to use it towards a denominational private school? Does that violate church and state? When I buy locally I know the quarter cent sales tax passed last year goes straight to the schools in my town- would I have voted differently if I knew that money would go to another suburbs school? Like I said, I see points in your argument, I just find the drawbacks to raise more questions than answers.

pr0phet
03-19-2011, 08:18 PM
Hey Mitch,

If your govt went strictly on the basis of withdrawing public school funds and moving them to private schools, isn't that discrimination? A lot of students can't go to private schools because they are unable to afford the tuition. If you offer grants for people to enroll in private schools, how private are they going to remain?

tutall
03-19-2011, 08:31 PM
To be honest with you I hate the fact the county can charge whatever they want in taxes for the school. The county/town I live in wants to build a new gym for the school and they are talking raising...

tutall
03-19-2011, 08:34 PM
Hey Mitch,

If your govt went strictly on the basis of withdrawing public school funds and moving them to private schools, isn't that discrimination? A lot of students can't go to private schools because they are unable to afford the tuition. If you offer grants for people to enroll in private schools, how private are they going to remain?

That is my worry also I think i posted in one of the first posts i made. As far as discrimination, those parents pay into the system just like everyone else. Why should I have to pay taxes to the school in my district if my child who is currently in school is not using them. As long as the money stays to going to getting a child a good education I really cannot see the drawback from a consumer standpoint. I want the best education possible for my students and I think if the consumer had an option it would force schools to get the best teachers possible not whoever has the most tenure as a teacher. If they arent getting the job done just like any other job they need to go.

dfr52
03-23-2011, 08:34 PM
That is my worry also I think i posted in one of the first posts i made. As far as discrimination, those parents pay into the system just like everyone else. Why should I have to pay taxes to the school in my district if my child who is currently in school is not using them. As long as the money stays to going to getting a child a good education I really cannot see the drawback from a consumer standpoint. I want the best education possible for my students and I think if the consumer had an option it would force schools to get the best teachers possible not whoever has the most tenure as a teacher. If they arent getting the job done just like any other job they need to go.

Its not that easy though. How do we determine who is actually "getting the job done"? State assessment scores are pretty much useless unless were are trying to identify students who have parents that are involved in their education, or come from more affluent homes.

tutall
03-23-2011, 08:38 PM
Its not that easy though. How do we determine who is actually "getting the job done"? State assessment scores are pretty much useless unless were are trying to identify students who have parents that are involved in their education, or come from more affluent homes.

Did you go to school? I think it is pretty obvious the teachers who got it and the teachers that were in the system to get the summers off and protection from the teachers union... It isnt rocket science here. Test scores dont tell the truth at all but a little observation and the administration taking ownership will get them a long ways. I had a teacher in high school who listed text books on ebay all day during class... he would write 5-6 geometry problems on the board, we would solve them (in groups usually as he didnt care) and play euchre the rest of the day... everyone knew this was going on and he would openly tell you this is what he was doing... But he had been there 20+ years and no one would touch him.... Why does he still have a job? In my job, if I dont do what is the best for the customer I get fired... It is that simple. They go off numbers, customer complaints, customer feedback, "secret shoppers, etc... I am sure a little observation and follow up will tell the administrators what they already know that some teachers just are not cut out to be teachers

jeeptrader
03-23-2011, 08:45 PM
Another thing I don't like about this is ...

http://www.barackobama.com/images/feature/11/02/15-workers_rights.jpg
The Democratic National Committee's (http://topics.politico.com/index.cfm/topic/dnc) Organizing for America arm -- the remnant of the 2008 Obama campaign -- is playing an active role in organizing protests against Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker's attempt to strip most public employees of collective bargaining rights.


If this is really about the local teachers why does Obama's Goons get involed .The turnout would not be half of what it is if the DNC goons weren't BUSED in and givin a free lunch and bus ride ..no different than the GOP trying to oust them:winking0071:

dfr52
03-25-2011, 09:46 AM
Did you go to school? I think it is pretty obvious the teachers who got it and the teachers that were in the system to get the summers off and protection from the teachers union... It isnt rocket science here. Test scores dont tell the truth at all but a little observation and the administration taking ownership will get them a long ways. I had a teacher in high school who listed text books on ebay all day during class... he would write 5-6 geometry problems on the board, we would solve them (in groups usually as he didnt care) and play euchre the rest of the day... everyone knew this was going on and he would openly tell you this is what he was doing... But he had been there 20+ years and no one would touch him.... Why does he still have a job? In my job, if I dont do what is the best for the customer I get fired... It is that simple. They go off numbers, customer complaints, customer feedback, "secret shoppers, etc... I am sure a little observation and follow up will tell the administrators what they already know that some teachers just are not cut out to be teachers

Its not rocket science but the person doing the evaluating should have an education degree.

I think you are on the right path but I don't believe anyone from w/in the district should do the evaluations. The evaluations should be conducted by a 3rd party who has no relationships or interest in the district. Far too often in education personal relationships or "connections" interfere with how teachers are selected for positions or evaluated by the administration.

I work as a substitute teacher and in my experiences I have found there to be very few poor teachers. Those who have managed to stick around are usually friends w/ the administration or have kept their jobs b/c the district have not felt like firing them. Tenure provides some job security but it doesn't protect a teacher from doing a lousy job. If an administrator chooses to document where a teacher is falling short, and the teacher doesn't follow the improvement plan, they can be removed. Administrator biases can cloud the evaluations so I believe a 3rd party outside of the district would help provide impartial information to the discussion.

Theodor Madison
03-25-2011, 10:24 AM
No one minds paying more taxes esp when it come to the education of our children. Trouble is that most taxes tend to be permanent and tend only to rise weather the inflation goes up and down. Another question is are we really getting what we pay for? Do the kids really learn?
Is it discrimination, to not fund schools that are failing. I would say no. Is is wise to have children if you can't afford them, esp uneducated children.?

dfr52
03-25-2011, 12:06 PM
No one minds paying more taxes esp when it come to the education of our children. Trouble is that most taxes tend to be permanent and tend only to rise weather the inflation goes up and down. Another question is are we really getting what we pay for? Do the kids really learn?
Is it discrimination, to not fund schools that are failing. I would say no. Is is wise to have children if you can't afford them, esp uneducated children.?

The most important factors in achieving successful learning are parental involvement and family attitude toward education. These are barriers that occur at home but are usually handled by teachers. Its not a matter of throwing more money at teachers but providing them w/ smaller classes and support staff to cover the gaps in parental involvement.

tutall
03-26-2011, 11:25 AM
Its not rocket science but the person doing the evaluating should have an education degree.

I think you are on the right path but I don't believe anyone from w/in the district should do the evaluations. The evaluations should be conducted by a 3rd party who has no relationships or interest in the district. Far too often in education personal relationships or "connections" interfere with how teachers are selected for positions or evaluated by the administration.

I work as a substitute teacher and in my experiences I have found there to be very few poor teachers. Those who have managed to stick around are usually friends w/ the administration or have kept their jobs b/c the district have not felt like firing them. Tenure provides some job security but it doesn't protect a teacher from doing a lousy job. If an administrator chooses to document where a teacher is falling short, and the teacher doesn't follow the improvement plan, they can be removed. Administrator biases can cloud the evaluations so I believe a 3rd party outside of the district would help provide impartial information to the discussion.

I would be fine with that... I wouldnt really care who is doing the observations and follow up but I really think it depends on which school you are at to decide how many teachers just dont care... I can think of a handfull just in my high school who only taught to be able to coach. I had a class that for a whole semester we did nothing but watch movies... and I am not talking educational documentaries, I am talking movies such as Waterboy, Airplane, Old School, etc...

pr0phet
10-14-2011, 10:34 PM
I know it has been discussed a while ago. Here is an AP report that proves Walker's changes to unions to "Save Money" were a bunch of hooplah

Nearly all schools in Wisconsin are getting less in aid (http://www.waow.com/story/15698394/nearly-all-wisconsin-schools-see-drop-in-aid)

More proof that Walker is full of it

sanfran22
10-15-2011, 12:11 PM
Did he ever say they wouldn't get less money? Maybe they are getting more then if things stayed the same? Maybe it would be 20&#37; cut instead of 10? You are going to have to cut regardless. Same thing is happening here.

OnePimpTiger
10-15-2011, 11:54 PM
I know it has been discussed a while ago. Here is an AP report that proves Walker's changes to unions to "Save Money" were a bunch of hooplah

Nearly all schools in Wisconsin are getting less in aid (http://www.waow.com/story/15698394/nearly-all-wisconsin-schools-see-drop-in-aid)

More proof that Walker is full of it

Actually that makes complete sense. The whole problem was there wasn't enough money. If he had fought the unions and then increased aid to nearly all districts, that would prove he was full of it. The fact that this happened is proof of the problem he is trying to fix. Imagine if the unions were getting more money...the cuts would be even bigger.