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View Full Version : The bible - fact or fiction???



pantherfan82
04-22-2011, 08:01 PM
First before i start this thread I wanna make sure nobody is going to come in here and start, cussing, talking crazy, calling names, etc. please follow the rules and lets respect each other opinions. im look for good healthy opinions and conversations on these topics.

I would call myself a skeptic, non beleiver, etc. etc. I have thought a lot about different parts of the bible and still have some things that are odd, unexplained or don’t make sense. Im going to post my thoughts, questions, thinking on the bible here for others to comment and discuss.

pantherfan82
04-22-2011, 08:13 PM
IS THERE FREE WILL OR DOES GOD KNOW EVERYTHING. My logic tells me it cant be both ways. If there is free will that implies that you always have a choice and you decide your destiny and that until you make a choice nobody knew what that choice was going to be. If god knows everything then he knows what you do before you do it. To me that implies there isnt a choice. So which is it? Free will or god knows everything? Seems like it cant be both ways.
GOD HAS A PLAN FOR EVERYBODY (GOES ALONG WITH GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING) – if god has a plan for everybody and when you are born knows what yours is. Knows what you are going to do etc etc. This causes me to think 2 different things. One when god puts you on this earth he already knows whether you are going to believe in him and ask for forgiveness. So he puts the non beleivers here knowing from day one that they arent going to believe in him and send them to hell? Also when people like hitler was born god knew hey that guy is gonna grow up and be responsible for killing a bunch of jewish people. Why would god do things like this? Am I missing something here? And if god has a plan for you then when people pray what are they really praying for? If god has your plan already made will praying make him change his mind? Like if enough people had prayed would holucost not of happened? These are all questions in my head.

sanfran22
04-22-2011, 08:44 PM
A quick question to you. If God knows the outcome how does that affect free will? Just because He knows whats going to happen doesn't mean you didn't have a choice in the matter....Therefore you can have both.

pantherfan82
04-22-2011, 08:57 PM
A quick question to you. If God knows the outcome how does that affect free will? Just because He knows whats going to happen doesn't mean you didn't have a choice in the matter....Therefore you can have both.

If he knows before you make the choice then was it really a choice?

pantherfan82
04-22-2011, 09:05 PM
Free will would mean you haven't made a choice yet so the future wasn't known yet. So does that mean god would've a psychic?

habsheaven
04-22-2011, 09:53 PM
Pure FICTION!!

duane1969
04-23-2011, 12:10 AM
The Bible is both fact and fiction.

There are parts that are undeniable fact. Jerusalem really exists. The river Jordan relally exists. There really were pharoahs. Etc.

On the flip side, there are many things that happenb in the Bibel that are neither provable or logical. Thus fiction.

Arguing aspects of religion such as free will vs. predetermination is kind of moot. We clearly do what we want. Or do we? LOL

gatorboymike
04-23-2011, 03:04 AM
Sometimes Christians argue that if the Bible is archaeologically accurate, it must be theologically accurate. In other words, "The Bible says this city and this person existed, and we know from history and archaeology that that kingdom and that person actually did exist, so then it must also be right when it says there is a god and Jesus is his son." This is the very definition of a non-sequitur. It's like if I told you I went to McDonalds for lunch and then I was kidnapped by aliens, and I show you my McDonalds receipt, and claim that proves I was kidnapped by aliens.

PDawson21
04-23-2011, 03:12 AM
Well, im going to chime in. Im studying to be a youth pastor. Gods sovreign will and our free will work together in ways we dont understand. I do think he is omnisciene but I think we have free will to a certain extent. I think Jesus Chris died on the cross and rose on the third day. Your free will comes into whether you place your faith in Jesus/God. The Death on the Cross was sufficient for all, but efficient for some(who choose). I beleive in the Trinity, God, Son, Holy Spirit. Just my two cents, going to stop for now.

habsheaven
04-23-2011, 09:16 AM
The Bible is both fact and fiction.

There are parts that are undeniable fact. Jerusalem really exists. The river Jordan relally exists. There really were pharoahs. Etc.

On the flip side, there are many things that happenb in the Bibel that are neither provable or logical. Thus fiction.

Arguing aspects of religion such as free will vs. predetermination is kind of moot. We clearly do what we want. Or do we? LOL

Duane you are right, there is both fact and fiction in the Bible. That can also be said for the latest John Grisham novel. :whistle:

pghin08
04-23-2011, 06:27 PM
The Bible is both fact and fiction.

There are parts that are undeniable fact. Jerusalem really exists. The river Jordan relally exists. There really were pharoahs. Etc.

On the flip side, there are many things that happenb in the Bibel that are neither provable or logical. Thus fiction.

Arguing aspects of religion such as free will vs. predetermination is kind of moot. We clearly do what we want. Or do we? LOL

I heart this post.

duane1969
04-23-2011, 09:57 PM
Duane you are right, there is both fact and fiction in the Bible. That can also be said for the latest John Grisham novel. :whistle:

No arguement from me.

My .02 is that every religious text, be it a Quran, Holy Bible or Torah, has challengable aspects. All ancient religious texts are written from someone's perspective and influenced by their opinion and underlying motivation. Questioning the reality or legitimacy of one specific religion just shows that there is a hidden agenda.

theonedru
04-24-2011, 02:04 AM
The Bible is written and interpreted by man for man to go along with mans editing of it it is a far cry from what it is intended and this more fiction than fact

Bluedogcards
04-24-2011, 04:48 AM
If he knows before you make the choice then was it really a choice?


Even if God knows the choise, you as a person still has to choose, so both way, just a thought

AUTaxMan
04-24-2011, 01:55 PM
IS THERE FREE WILL OR DOES GOD KNOW EVERYTHING. My logic tells me it cant be both ways. If there is free will that implies that you always have a choice and you decide your destiny and that until you make a choice nobody knew what that choice was going to be. If god knows everything then he knows what you do before you do it. To me that implies there isnt a choice. So which is it? Free will or god knows everything? Seems like it cant be both ways.

God knows everything. There is also free will. God knows the outcomes of every possible choice you will and won't make. Just because He knows the possible outcomes does not mean that you do not have the free will to make those choices. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive.


GOD HAS A PLAN FOR EVERYBODY (GOES ALONG WITH GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING) – if god has a plan for everybody and when you are born knows what yours is. Knows what you are going to do etc etc. This causes me to think 2 different things. One when god puts you on this earth he already knows whether you are going to believe in him and ask for forgiveness. So he puts the non beleivers here knowing from day one that they arent going to believe in him and send them to hell? Also when people like hitler was born god knew hey that guy is gonna grow up and be responsible for killing a bunch of jewish people. Why would god do things like this? Am I missing something here? And if god has a plan for you then when people pray what are they really praying for? If god has your plan already made will praying make him change his mind? Like if enough people had prayed would holucost not of happened? These are all questions in my head.

I understand your questions here, and they are some that many non-belivers have (and that many believers ought to examine). God has a master plan for mankind that we cannot even begin to comprehend. He also has a plan for each of our lives that ends in salvation if we choose to follow that path. However, he has given us the free will to decide which paths to take. It is up to us to decide whether or not we want to seek out His plan to prosper us, to give us a hope and a future.

Bad things like the holocaust happen because God gives us free will. He is not the great puppet master who dictates each and every decision we make. He can use our foibles, however, to further his master plan.

I know this won't answer all of your questions, but it will get the discussion going.

habsheaven
04-24-2011, 07:13 PM
Here's a question I have. If God has a "master plan" and a believer believes that He has a "master plan", why do so many of those believers pray for "results" rather than just pray for "strength and guidance"?

pantherfan82
04-24-2011, 07:38 PM
Here's a question I have. If God has a "master plan" and a believer believes that He has a "master plan", why do so many of those believers pray for "results" rather than just pray for "strength and guidance"?

Ive had this same thought because if God has a plan can praying actually change anything for you?

AUTaxMan
04-24-2011, 08:09 PM
Here's a question I have. If God has a "master plan" and a believer believes that He has a "master plan", why do so many of those believers pray for "results" rather than just pray for "strength and guidance"?

The Bible tells us to pray for results and that God will bless us with results. The Bible also tells us to pray for strength and guidance. Prayer is about humbling yourself before God and communicating with him--acknowledging that He is in control of all things. He rewards all those who are faithful to Him. Sometimes with results. Sometimes not. One thing prayer will do is bring you closer to Him and His will for you.

duane1969
04-24-2011, 08:37 PM
Here's a question I have. If God has a "master plan" and a believer believes that He has a "master plan", why do so many of those believers pray for "results" rather than just pray for "strength and guidance"?

As someone who was raised in the Baptist church I can atest to the fact that prayer for strength and guidance is common place. Praying for wants/needs is human nature just like buying a lottery ticket or a raffle ticket for a chance to win a car. Because God has a master plan does not mean he takes away our desire for things.

Also, what you guys are arguing is called predestination. Not many Christians that I have known in my life believe that every single thing in our lives is pre-planned and laid out.

AUTaxMan
04-24-2011, 09:05 PM
As someone who was raised in the Baptist church I can atest to the fact that prayer for strength and guidance is common place. Praying for wants/needs is human nature just like buying a lottery ticket or a raffle ticket for a chance to win a car. Because God has a master plan does not mean he takes away our desire for things.

Also, what you guys are arguing is called predestination. Not many Christians that I have known in my life believe that every single thing in our lives is pre-planned and laid out.

Calvinists do.

ensbergcollector
04-24-2011, 11:02 PM
i will try and catch up. first of all, I am a youth minister so obviously I have a certain belief. However, I think I am pretty open minded, I will try and answer what I can but I am willing to say I don't know when I don't.

God exists outside of time. Meaning, he knows what has happened as well as what will happen. His knowing what I will do a week from now, does not mean that I don't choose what I will do.

I do think people should pray more often for strength as well as peace with what happens. There is evidence in scripture (for those that believe it) of God changing his mind based on the appeal of Moses. Therefore, it is not outside the realm for people to pray hoping to effect God's decision.

brandonbarnett
04-25-2011, 08:25 AM
The Bible is written and interpreted by man for man to go along with mans editing of it it is a far cry from what it is intended and this more fiction than fact


This is how I tend to go with it, there are to many books changed by man or omitted by man because the content is risky and what not.....I do believe in God I do believe Jesus died for me, but I don't believe the Bible is 100% truth or proof.......

brandonbarnett
04-25-2011, 08:28 AM
The Bible tells us to pray for results and that God will bless us with results. The Bible also tells us to pray for strength and guidance. Prayer is about humbling yourself before God and communicating with him--acknowledging that He is in control of all things. He rewards all those who are faithful to Him. Sometimes with results. Sometimes not. One thing prayer will do is bring you closer to Him and His will for you.

Just like the Old saying God hears all prayers but sometimes the answer is NO........

AUTaxMan
04-25-2011, 09:54 AM
This is how I tend to go with it, there are to many books changed by man or omitted by man because the content is risky and what not.....I do believe in God I do believe Jesus died for me, but I don't believe the Bible is 100% truth or proof.......

2 Timothy 3:16 says that all scripture is God-breathed, meaning that the writer of each of the scriptures was inspired by God when the books were written. I also take this to mean that the vetting process of what became and did not become biblical canon was also guided by the hand of God. Thus, though each of the books of the Bible has a human voice and tone to it, it is in fact the word of God.

Star_Cards
04-25-2011, 09:59 AM
No arguement from me.

My .02 is that every religious text, be it a Quran, Holy Bible or Torah, has challengable aspects. All ancient religious texts are written from someone's perspective and influenced by their opinion and underlying motivation. Questioning the reality or legitimacy of one specific religion just shows that there is a hidden agenda.

For me I find the reason I question religion with people is because many people want to use it to create legislation. I agree 100% with your posts that there are tangible and intangible aspects to any religion, but when one religious majority wants to use the intangible aspects to create laws for everyone to follow, no matter their beliefs, that is when I find it legitimate to question. If an individual wants to choose to believe something that can't be proven or not that is up to them and their choice.

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 10:07 AM
2 Timothy 3:16 says that all scripture is God-breathed, meaning that the writer of each of the scriptures was inspired by God when the books were written. I also take this to mean that the vetting process of what became and did not become biblical canon was also guided by the hand of God. Thus, though each of the books of the Bible has a human voice and tone to it, it is in fact the word of God.

So in essence, what you are saying is; a passage written by a man, says that all scripture is God-breathed. Interesting concept.

Here my advice to you based on that logic; beware the liar that tells you he never lies.:whistle:

AUTaxMan
04-25-2011, 10:17 AM
So in essence, what you are saying is; a passage written by a man, says that all scripture is God-breathed. Interesting concept.

Here my advice to you based on that logic; beware the liar that tells you he never lies.:whistle:

Is your position that nothing written in the Bible is divinely inspired, or just the parts that support your arguments?

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 10:54 AM
Is your position that nothing written in the Bible is divinely inspired, or just the parts that support your arguments?

My position on the BIBLE, and for that matter EVERY RELIGION on the planet, is that they have been created by MAN, for MAN and are in the best interest of MAN and nothing else.

AUTaxMan
04-25-2011, 11:20 AM
My position on the BIBLE, and for that matter EVERY RELIGION on the planet, is that they have been created by MAN, for MAN and are in the best interest of MAN and nothing else.

Are you an atheist?

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 11:38 AM
Are you an atheist?

I am a Realist.

sanfran22
04-25-2011, 11:41 AM
2 Timothy 3:16 says that all scripture is God-breathed, meaning that the writer of each of the scriptures was inspired by God when the books were written. I also take this to mean that the vetting process of what became and did not become biblical canon was also guided by the hand of God. Thus, though each of the books of the Bible has a human voice and tone to it, it is in fact the word of God.
+1. The infallible word of God....end of story.

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 11:45 AM
+1. The infallible word of God....end of story.

epilogue - written by a man :confused0024:

TitansFan
04-25-2011, 11:51 AM
epilogue - written by a man :confused0024:

What does the word Heaven mean to you?

sanfran22
04-25-2011, 11:53 AM
epilogue - written by a man :confused0024:
Written by God through man......:kiss:

AUTaxMan
04-25-2011, 11:53 AM
I am a Realist.

What does that mean?

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 12:03 PM
What does the word Heaven mean to you?

Good question. To me, it is a metaphoric "state of mind".

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 12:05 PM
Written by God through man......:kiss:

Says a man. BTW, God would not approve of where that kiss is leading.:sign0020:

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 12:07 PM
What does that mean?

It means, I do not believe in labels. FWIW, I was brought up as an Anglican.

AUTaxMan
04-25-2011, 12:09 PM
It means, I do not believe in labels. FWIW, I was brought up as an Anglican.

What do you mean you do not believe in labels?

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 12:26 PM
What do you mean you do not believe in labels?

What I mean is that there are too many different labels in the world used to categorize one's beliefs or non-beliefs. I choose (or did God choose it for me) not to categorized as anything but ME.

AUTaxMan
04-25-2011, 12:46 PM
What I mean is that there are too many different labels in the world used to categorize one's beliefs or non-beliefs. I choose (or did God choose it for me) not to categorized as anything but ME.

Then let's disregard the labels. What do you believe about God?

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 01:08 PM
Then let's disregard the labels. What do you believe about God?

Nothing. There isn't a single FACT to prove the existence of a God (your's or anyone else's).

AUTaxMan
04-25-2011, 01:16 PM
Nothing. There isn't a single FACT to prove the existence of a God (your's or anyone else's).

What would it take for you to believe in God's existence?

theonedru
04-25-2011, 01:23 PM
Nothing. There isn't a single FACT to prove the existence of a God (your's or anyone else's).

And yet there are no hard facts that can disprove the existence of a god either.

brandonbarnett
04-25-2011, 01:30 PM
2 Timothy 3:16 says that all scripture is God-breathed, meaning that the writer of each of the scriptures was inspired by God when the books were written. I also take this to mean that the vetting process of what became and did not become biblical canon was also guided by the hand of God. Thus, though each of the books of the Bible has a human voice and tone to it, it is in fact the word of God.

"Inspired" by is way different than written by....I mean I could write a vision I had and say it was inspired by God, but that doesn't make it truth...and I just maintain way to much time had passed between the death of Christ and King James version of the Bible....

AUTaxMan
04-25-2011, 01:36 PM
"Inspired" by is way different than written by....I mean I could write a vision I had and say it was inspired by God, but that doesn't make it truth...and I just maintain way to much time had passed between the death of Christ and King James version of the Bible....

You are correct. The original Greek word "theopneustos" used in the verse is a compound word made from the words "theos" (God) and "pneustos" (wind, spirit, or breath). Literally, theopneustos means God-breathed. In order words, the scriptures are the very breath of God. By their very nature, because of God's perfection, they are truth. To limit the interpretation to "inspired by," you lose much of the essence of the original text.

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 01:46 PM
And yet there are no hard facts that can disprove the existence of a god either.

No there isn't. But I do not need hard facts to prove a negative.

If I tell you I can't fly, I assume you will believe me without requesting proof. If I tell you I can fly, you will insist on seeing me do it. Yet you will not use the same standard on this subject.:confused0024:

AUTaxMan
04-25-2011, 01:47 PM
No there isn't. But I do not need hard facts to prove a negative.

If I tell you I can't fly, I assume you will believe me without requesting proof. If I tell you I can fly, you will insist on seeing me do it. Yet you will not use the same standard on this subject.:confused0024:

Yeah, I'm not a fan of this argument, because you can't prove a negative. That's why I didn't bring it up.

PDawson21
04-25-2011, 01:55 PM
For the people who don't believe the bible is infallible, how were you created? Big Bang Theory? Monkeys? How or who do you think created the amazing world around you? The way things work so perfectly together, etc.

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 01:59 PM
What would it take for you to believe in God's existence?

The only thing I need to believe in is MYSELF and the PEOPLE I put my faith in.

What would it take for you to believe in Allah's existence?

AUTaxMan
04-25-2011, 02:02 PM
The only thing I need to believe in is MYSELF and the PEOPLE I put my faith in.

What would it take for you to believe in Allah's existence?

You didn't answer my question. I didn't ask what you do believe or what you need to believe. I asked what it would take for you to believe in God.

And as a Christian, I do believe in Allah's existence.

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 02:08 PM
For the people who don't believe the bible is infallible, how were you created? Big Bang Theory? Monkeys? How or who do you think created the amazing world around you? The way things work so perfectly together, etc.

For people that do, who created God? I will continue to believe what science tells me. For you, I suggest you spend some time researching "monkeys". You may be surprised by what you learn.

Have you seen the world we live in? "Perfect" would not be an adjective I would use to describe the world. "Perfect" has not turned out too well for many peoples over the years.

PDawson21
04-25-2011, 02:13 PM
The world itself is perfect. The people in the world are not. That's why the world in your sense isn't perfect.

As far as existence of God, there is faith. Believing in what you cannot see. Jesus walked the earth. For. 32 years. Do you believe Jesus was a real person? And on another note, do you fear death? Just wondering.

AUTaxMan
04-25-2011, 02:13 PM
For people that do, who created God? I will continue to believe what science tells me. For you, I suggest you spend some time researching "monkeys". You may be surprised by what you learn.

Have you seen the world we live in? "Perfect" would not be an adjective I would use to describe the world. "Perfect" has not turned out too well for many peoples over the years.

God was not created. He is, always has been, and always will be.

Why do you place so much faith in science?

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 02:14 PM
You didn't answer my question. I didn't ask what you do believe or what you need to believe. I asked what it would take for you to believe in God.

And as a Christian, I do believe in Allah's existence.

Okay. Seriously, I would have to lose all my sense of reason and reality.

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 02:26 PM
The world itself is perfect. The people in the world are not. That's why the world in your sense isn't perfect.

As far as existence of God, there is faith. Believing in what you cannot see. Jesus walked the earth. For. 32 years. Do you believe Jesus was a real person? And on another note, do you fear death? Just wondering.

I do not believe in ANYTHING that I cannot SEE. I have no reason not to believe Jesus walked the Earth. I have a problem believing he was conceived "supernaturally". I also have a problem believing he was resurrected. What would it take for you to believe either of those events happened to someone today?

Do I fear death? Not really anymore. I had a hard time accepting it when I was 12-13 years old. Then I grew up.

PDawson21
04-25-2011, 02:29 PM
Read my post a minute ago and please answer.

Also thse:
Since you think the bible has errors. Doesn't science also have errors? What makes science more believable? Humans make mistakes, you make numbers say anything you want them too. What is so much better about it?

The world is perfect. The people in it are not. Agree? So the "world is perfect". The people in it make it not perfect. Separate the two.

What about Miracles that bend around the natural laws of science? Are they illusions? Is science wrong somehow? Explanation.

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 02:30 PM
God was not created. He is, always has been, and always will be.

Why do you place so much faith in science?

You state that like it is a fact. How in the heck do you KNOW that?

I have faith in what can be PROVEN, whether it's science or otherwise.

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 02:41 PM
Read my post a minute ago and please answer.

Answered just before you posted this. Don't be so impatient.


Also thse:
Since you think the bible has errors. Doesn't science also have errors? What makes science more believable? Humans make mistakes, you make numbers say anything you want them too. What is so much better about it?

The world is perfect. The people in it are not. Agree? So the "world is perfect". The people in it make it not perfect. Separate the two.

What about Miracles that bend around the natural laws of science? Are they illusions? Is science wrong somehow? Explanation.

Hmmm.. where to start?

I didn't say the Bible has errors. I believe I said it was FICTION. Yes science has errors and they are constantly being corrected as more becomes known about the relevant subject matter.

No, the world is not perfect. There is nothing perfect about a natural disaster that kills 100,000's of people (tsunami).

Miracles fall into a few categories. The unexplained and the misreported by "people". But hey, if it's GOOD and can't be explained, let's attribute it to a benevolent God. It will help offset those darn tsunamis.

AUTaxMan
04-25-2011, 02:43 PM
You state that like it is a fact. How in the heck do you KNOW that?

I have faith in what can be PROVEN, whether it's science or otherwise.

I cannot independently verify that statement. I "know" it to be true because I have faith in that and other facts upon which my religion is based. The Christian religion cannot exist without faith in the unprovable.

What do you believe about the creation of the universe? The method of creation has yet to be proven. Your statement suggests that you don't have a position on the creation of the universe, because it cannot be proven one way or the other.

I am enjoying this discussion with you, by the way. Thanks for keeping it rational.

Star_Cards
04-25-2011, 02:49 PM
For the people who don't believe the bible is infallible, how were you created? Big Bang Theory? Monkeys? How or who do you think created the amazing world around you? The way things work so perfectly together, etc.

as far as my belief of how I am here evolution sounds much more plausible than that of humans just being plopped down on day or that of the world that we know being created in 7 days. Of course there is no 100% proof of humans evolving from a single celled organism, but the story of god created the world in seven days just isn't true. There are animals that existed and were extinct millions of years before humans have been around. I'm not anything close to a scientist but I believe that things can be carbon dated fairly accurately.

Evolution is something that exists for sure and there are many instances of it within the animal kingdom. Now I go recognize that it's not as extreme as a complex human evolving from a single celled organism, but when we can see it over a short spam of time it's plausible for me to make that leap that it could happen over millions or even billions of years.

It is true that nature is beautiful, but to me that doesn't mean it was instantly created by some sort of higher power.

duane1969
04-25-2011, 02:52 PM
And yet there are no hard facts that can disprove the existence of a god either.

Dang it! Beat me to it.


No there isn't. But I do not need hard facts to prove a negative.

If I tell you I can't fly, I assume you will believe me without requesting proof. If I tell you I can fly, you will insist on seeing me do it. Yet you will not use the same standard on this subject.:confused0024:

By the same measure, if you tell me that you can fly and I do not ask you to prove it then there exist no proof that you can not fly either.


For people that do, who created God? I will continue to believe what science tells me. For you, I suggest you spend some time researching "monkeys". You may be surprised by what you learn.

Have you seen the world we live in? "Perfect" would not be an adjective I would use to describe the world. "Perfect" has not turned out too well for many peoples over the years.

The world being perfect and peoples lives being perfect are two different things. If not for man's involvement then the planet Earth would be a glorious place. Animals would not have to contend with highways, oil spills and suburban sprawl if not for man. The Earth would not experience air pollution, litter, landfills and deforestation without man. Man's free will has perverted the perfection. Don't get the two confused.

PDawson21
04-25-2011, 02:52 PM
You say let's attribute it to a benevolent God. So you agree that God exist?

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 02:57 PM
I cannot independently verify that statement. I "know" it to be true because I have faith in that and other facts upon which my religion is based. The Christian religion cannot exist without faith in the unprovable.

What do you believe about the creation of the universe? The method of creation has yet to be proven. Your statement suggests that you don't have a position on the creation of the universe, because it cannot be proven one way or the other.

I am enjoying this discussion with you, by the way. Thanks for keeping it rational.

I do not have a position as of yet on how the universe came to exist. I doubt I ever will, and I am okay with that. Afterall, it really isn't all that important. I am however open to ALL possibilities, but I am not going to believe anyone who tells me to have FAITH and just believe, especially after the track record religion has had over the years. No disrespect but, I think that is just foolish.

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 02:59 PM
You say let's attribute it to a benevolent God. So you agree that God exist?


Yeah, that's it. Where's the darn "sarcasm" emoticon when you need it?

AUTaxMan
04-25-2011, 03:02 PM
I do not have a position as of yet on how the universe came to exist. I doubt I ever will, and I am okay with that. Afterall, it really isn't all that important. I am however open to ALL possibilities, but I am not going to believe anyone who tells me to have FAITH and just believe, especially after the track record religion has had over the years. No disrespect but, I think that is just foolish.

Does it not take faith to believe what science tells you?

Please elaborate on the track record comment. What exactly do you mean?

Also, what is foolish, faith in the unknown in general, or faith based on the track record of religion?

PDawson21
04-25-2011, 03:08 PM
Yeah, that's it. Where's the darn "sarcasm" emoticon when you need it?

If you don't think there is one, say so. But to your comment earlier, it seems to lead me to believe you think there is a God but your not sure what to believe.


As to the evolution comment above, yes, I think there is some truth to humans adapting to our culture in a sense. Different weather, sun conditions, immunities, etc but I believe God created us as human beings. Also there are some "gap theories" that could explain your thought of 7 days. Some Christian scholars say that God's 7 days aren't our literal 7 days. Etc. Read up on it.

AUTaxMan
04-25-2011, 03:09 PM
If you don't think there is one, say so. But to your comment earlier, it seems to lead me to believe you think there is a God but your not sure what to believe.


As to the evolution comment above, yes, I think there is some truth to humans adapting to our culture in a sense. Different weather, sun conditions, immunities, etc but I believe God created us as human beings. Also there are some "gap theories" that could explain your thought of 7 days. Some Christian scholars say that God's 7 days aren't our literal 7 days. Etc. Read up on it.

Most Christians I know don't believe in a literal seven day creation.

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 03:11 PM
By the same measure, if you tell me that you can fly and I do not ask you to prove it then there exist no proof that you can not fly either.

Depends on what you measure as proof. The fact that no one else has been able to fly should be proof enough in my inability to do it.



The world being perfect and peoples lives being perfect are two different things. If not for man's involvement then the planet Earth would be a glorious place. Animals would not have to contend with highways, oil spills and suburban sprawl if not for man. The Earth would not experience air pollution, litter, landfills and deforestation without man. Man's free will has perverted the perfection. Don't get the two confused.

Tell me what is perfect about meteors pounding the Earth and wiping out species. What role did Man play in that? How about the tsunami in Indonesia a few years ago? What role did Man play in that? How about the Earthquakes in Haiti and Japan? Perfect world, I think not!!

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 03:16 PM
If you don't think there is one, say so. But to your comment earlier, it seems to lead me to believe you think there is a God but your not sure what to believe.


As to the evolution comment above, yes, I think there is some truth to humans adapting to our culture in a sense. Different weather, sun conditions, immunities, etc but I believe God created us as human beings. Also there are some "gap theories" that could explain your thought of 7 days. Some Christian scholars say that God's 7 days aren't our literal 7 days. Etc. Read up on it.

Do you also believe "God" (I will put it quotation marks for you from now on) created Woman from Man?

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 03:18 PM
Most Christians I know don't believe in a literal seven day creation.

Have you asked them why they don't?

Star_Cards
04-25-2011, 03:19 PM
I do not have a position as of yet on how the universe came to exist. I doubt I ever will, and I am okay with that. Afterall, it really isn't all that important. I am however open to ALL possibilities, but I am not going to believe anyone who tells me to have FAITH and just believe, especially after the track record religion has had over the years. No disrespect but, I think that is just foolish.

wishes this was my answer. :)

AUTaxMan
04-25-2011, 03:25 PM
Have you asked them why they don't?

Not recently.

Star_Cards
04-25-2011, 03:30 PM
If you don't think there is one, say so. But to your comment earlier, it seems to lead me to believe you think there is a God but your not sure what to believe.


As to the evolution comment above, yes, I think there is some truth to humans adapting to our culture in a sense. Different weather, sun conditions, immunities, etc but I believe God created us as human beings. Also there are some "gap theories" that could explain your thought of 7 days. Some Christian scholars say that God's 7 days aren't our literal 7 days. Etc. Read up on it.

There are also a lot of christians (not sure if they're scholars) that think dinosaurs roamed the earth with man. That's the issue. I find some people (not particularly in this thread) want the bible to be the end all be all and then other times they say there are gap theories that say it really wasn't so and that it was just a story.

I honestly don't have issue with anyone thinking they were created by a god. I just don't want to be legislated by rules of a religion.

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 03:31 PM
Does it not take faith to believe what science tells you?

Please elaborate on the track record comment. What exactly do you mean?

Also, what is foolish, faith in the unknown in general, or faith based on the track record of religion?

For short periods of time, belief in new scientific discoveries is required but science always keeps moving forward. You only have to look at the advancements in medicine to see science at work.

Religion's track record from day one has been to dominate and persecute women and non-believers.

Faith in a concept that is thousands of years old yet still provides no FACTUAL evidence of it's existence is foolish. A logical person would choose to be non-commital to the concept until proof is provided.

Star_Cards
04-25-2011, 03:32 PM
Most Christians I know don't believe in a literal seven day creation.

What is the most believed method if the seven day creation isn't widely believed?

AUTaxMan
04-25-2011, 03:36 PM
What is the most believed method if the seven day creation isn't widely believed?

I don't know.

Star_Cards
04-25-2011, 03:37 PM
I don't know.

okay, what is yours'?

DunkingDurant35
04-25-2011, 03:39 PM
Religion's track record from day one has been to dominate and persecute women and non-believers.

This argument holds as much weight as when believers say Stalin's non-belief caused him to endorse the death of millions - in other words, none. Regardless of religion, or lack thereof, there are going to be humans who dominate and persecute anyone different from them, whether it be race, different political beliefs, sexual orientation, etc. There are ALL KINDS of people who follow their religion quietly and don't persecute others who believe differently. I'm a female believer engaged to an agnostic, BTW; I don't feel "persecuted" and neither does he (in fact, we really like each other :sign0020:).

AUTaxMan
04-25-2011, 03:43 PM
For short periods of time, belief in new scientific discoveries is required but science always keeps moving forward. You only have to look at the advancements in medicine to see science at work.


People have put decades of belief in accepting theories such as the big bang, evolution, and relativity as scientific fact.



Religion's track record from day one has been to dominate and persecute women and non-believers.


That may be true in many cases, but that doesn't make it right, and it is certainly not a practice that Jesus would have condoned. It is unfair to categorize the Christian religion as one that generally persecutes non-believers because of the bad acts of a relative few.



Faith in a concept that is thousands of years old yet still provides no FACTUAL evidence of it's existence is foolish. A logical person would choose to be non-commital to the concept until proof is provided.

A logical person would not assume that all things can be proven scientifically.

AUTaxMan
04-25-2011, 03:51 PM
okay, what is yours'?

Simply stated, God created the universe out of nothing over a period of millions of years, and God created man.

brandonbarnett
04-25-2011, 03:53 PM
Do you also believe "God" (I will put it quotation marks for you from now on) created Woman from Man?


Yes, but not as the first intended woman....I believe God created Lilith first with her own free will, and she would not give to the demands of Adam, which let her be cast out of Eden in which God made Eve using Adam......and yeah it does seem far fetched, and could totally be wrong but its what I believe.......

Star_Cards
04-25-2011, 03:53 PM
Simply stated, God created the universe out of nothing over a period of millions of years, and God created man.

Do you personally believe the adam and eve story as how man was started?

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 03:54 PM
This argument holds as much weight as when believers say Stalin's non-belief caused him to endorse the death of millions - in other words, none. Regardless of religion, or lack thereof, there are going to be humans who dominate and persecute anyone different from them, whether it be race, different political beliefs, sexual orientation, etc. There are ALL KINDS of people who follow their religion quietly and don't persecute others who believe differently. I'm a female believer engaged to an agnostic, BTW; I don't feel "persecuted" and neither does he (in fact, we really like each other :sign0020:).
I disagree. When are we going to see the first female Pope. Why is it God created Man first and then created woman "for" man afterwards? If that isn't the "Old Boys Network", I do not know what is.

DunkingDurant35
04-25-2011, 03:59 PM
When are we going to see the first woman president? When are we going to see men stop making fun of women's sports with loads of snide, arrogant comments? When are people going to stop assuming I like shoes and Twilight just because I'm a woman? When are we going to see women treated decently in nations where there is no organized religion but vague nature and idol worship? Sorry, but inherent sexism is all over the place even when religion as commonly defined is completely absent from the picture. It's not limited to religion no matter how much you try to stretch it.

Star_Cards
04-25-2011, 04:03 PM
This argument holds as much weight as when believers say Stalin's non-belief caused him to endorse the death of millions - in other words, none. Regardless of religion, or lack thereof, there are going to be humans who dominate and persecute anyone different from them, whether it be race, different political beliefs, sexual orientation, etc. There are ALL KINDS of people who follow their religion quietly and don't persecute others who believe differently. I'm a female believer engaged to an agnostic, BTW; I don't feel "persecuted" and neither does he (in fact, we really like each other :sign0020:).

I don't think he's saying that there aren't other ways that people would dominate or persecute outside of religion... of course there are, but religion has quite a few towards outsiders and within their own religion. I find it odd that someone would believe a religion if that organization itself has ways to limit people within.

AUTaxMan
04-25-2011, 04:14 PM
Do you personally believe the adam and eve story as how man was started?

I do. I struggled with that one for a long time, but that is what I believe.

DunkingDurant35
04-25-2011, 04:23 PM
Every organization has limits within if we're going to be that general. Eve coming from Adam doesn't make her inferior any more than a baby coming from a mother makes the baby inferior. As for church positions, so? There are positions where you have to reach a certain age to do, or obtain a certain amount of college education to attain, etc. Does any of that mean that people who aren't of that particular status are all inferior or that they are being persecuted against? No. BTW, it's very annoying as woman to see guys insist to me that I believe something that is allegedly degrading to me. I wouldn't believe something that I felt was degrading to me, and I resent being told this; I've made that decision myself.

Star_Cards
04-25-2011, 04:33 PM
Every organization has limits within if we're going to be that general. Eve coming from Adam doesn't make her inferior any more than a baby coming from a mother makes the baby inferior. As for church positions, so? There are positions where you have to reach a certain age to do, or obtain a certain amount of college education to attain, etc. Does any of that mean that people who aren't of that particular status are all inferior or that they are being persecuted against? No. BTW, it's very annoying as woman to see guys insist to me that I believe something that is allegedly degrading to me. I wouldn't believe something that I felt was degrading to me, and I resent being told this; I've made that decision myself.

I feel that I would think it degraded me if I were a women and followed the religion. That's to say that you have to. It's up to each person to decide if something offends them or not. I would hope that no one one would follow something if they thought it was degrading. Obviously you don't have issue with it so that's all that matter for yourself.

I don't have issue with limits or goals being placed, but to have a hard fast rule that a specific sex can't be something is a bit odd to be if that person passes the needed guidelines (educational, age or what have you.)

I never say eve as being inferior when hearing the story myself, but I can see where people read into that.

dmj19842002
04-25-2011, 05:01 PM
have you ever heard the lords prayer? In my opinion the reasons why these believers who pray for results that are in there favor is because they are human. The bible is about faith, it shows through history how in times of tribulations there's a stronger power that brings those people through, either it being by acts or by miracles. It's up to us to have faith and believe that there are reasons why things happen.


Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory. for ever and ever. Amen



Here's a question I have. If God has a "master plan" and a believer believes that He has a "master plan", why do so many of those believers pray for "results" rather than just pray for "strength and guidance"?

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 06:22 PM
When are we going to see the first woman president? When are we going to see men stop making fun of women's sports with loads of snide, arrogant comments? When are people going to stop assuming I like shoes and Twilight just because I'm a woman? When are we going to see women treated decently in nations where there is no organized religion but vague nature and idol worship? Sorry, but inherent sexism is all over the place even when religion as commonly defined is completely absent from the picture. It's not limited to religion no matter how much you try to stretch it.

I am not trying to stretch anything. I am talking about Religion and it's treatment of women as stated in the holy books of each. If women should get treated equally anywhere, it should be in Religion.

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 06:30 PM
Every organization has limits within if we're going to be that general. Eve coming from Adam doesn't make her inferior any more than a baby coming from a mother makes the baby inferior. As for church positions, so? There are positions where you have to reach a certain age to do, or obtain a certain amount of college education to attain, etc. Does any of that mean that people who aren't of that particular status are all inferior or that they are being persecuted against? No. BTW, it's very annoying as woman to see guys insist to me that I believe something that is allegedly degrading to me. I wouldn't believe something that I felt was degrading to me, and I resent being told this; I've made that decision myself.

The fact that you do not find it degrading is your choice. No one is telling you how you should feel about it. I am stating how I feel about it. And comparing "limits" of organizations to a "limit" that is contigent on what sex you are is "stretching". Forget the Adam and Eve metaphor, how often does the Bible refer to women as property? Where did the idea of refusing women the right to vote come from?

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 06:35 PM
Not sure what this has to do with the Lord's Prayer. When I hear/read the Lord's prayer, I interpret it as people praying for strength and guidance which I have no problem with.



have you ever heard the lords prayer? In my opinion the reasons why these believers who pray for results that are in there favor is because they are human. The bible is about faith, it shows through history how in times of tribulations there's a stronger power that brings those people through, either it being by acts or by miracles. It's up to us to have faith and believe that there are reasons why things happen.


Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdom come,
thy will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory. for ever and ever. Amen

sanfran22
04-25-2011, 06:51 PM
The fact that you do not find it degrading is your choice. No one is telling you how you should feel about it. I am stating how I feel about it. And comparing "limits" of organizations to a "limit" that is contigent on what sex you are is "stretching". Forget the Adam and Eve metaphor, how often does the Bible refer to women as property? Where did the idea of refusing women the right to vote come from?
How often does it refer to women as property?

AUTaxMan
04-25-2011, 06:53 PM
How often does it refer to women as property?

And where is this found in Jesus' teachings?

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 07:33 PM
How often does it refer to women as property?

How about right here?

Exodus 20:17 lists the last of the Ten Commandments: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ™™™, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."

Sure looks like a piece of property to me.

And how many times is irrelevant. It is after all God's words and to treat women as property ONCE is once too many times.

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 07:36 PM
And where is this found in Jesus' teachings?

I have no idea. I am speaking about organized religion not just Jesus' teachings.

AUTaxMan
04-25-2011, 07:37 PM
How about right here?

Exodus 20:17 lists the last of the Ten Commandments: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ™™™, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."

Sure looks like a piece of property to me.

That's a REAL stretch.

sanfran22
04-25-2011, 07:41 PM
How about right here?

Exodus 20:17 lists the last of the Ten Commandments: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ™™™, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."

Sure looks like a piece of property to me.
Maybe you are taking it out of context? possibly?? Maybe it's saying you shouldn't desire something that is not attainable? When one gets married they become one. The wife is the husbands and the husband is the wives.
Also in the same Ten commandments it says to honor thy father and mother. Why honor the mother if she were simply property?
Show me "how often" the Bible refers to women as property. Taking 1 verse out of context doesn't do anything...
SHow me something Jesus said about this as well. There is a difference in the old and new testament as well. That's another topic though.

Tradinpaint
04-25-2011, 07:54 PM
Can i pitch in? All i have to say is that im a Baptist, King James only, God believing person. There is no allah, no other god, but God. He is the Almighty, and the Bible is more than fact, its our guide to live by.

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 07:56 PM
That's a REAL stretch.

Can you explain how it is a STRETCH. Is she not listed amongst the property of the neighbour? It sure sounds to me like she is being equated to the rest of his chattels. Funny how legal standing for women throughout the centuries mirrors my interpretation of this commandment and not yours. Let's hear your explanation.

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 07:59 PM
Maybe you are taking it out of context? possibly?? Maybe it's saying you shouldn't desire something that is not attainable? When one gets married they become one. The wife is the husbands and the husband is the wives.
Also in the same Ten commandments it says to honor thy father and mother. Why honor the mother if she were simply property?
Show me "how often" the Bible refers to women as property. Taking 1 verse out of context doesn't do anything...
SHow me something Jesus said about this as well. There is a difference in the old and new testament as well. That's another topic though.


Really? Out of Context? I don't see it.

Old or New? I thought the commandments were the "word of God"?

Tradinpaint
04-25-2011, 07:59 PM
the Bible says that the man and woman become one...so if there is any property to it, both of them would be property

PDawson21
04-25-2011, 08:09 PM
How about right here?

Exodus 20:17 lists the last of the Ten Commandments: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ™™™, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."

Sure looks like a piece of property to me.

And how many times is irrelevant. It is after all God's words and to treat women as property ONCE is once too many times.

I do believe it is a stretch. The tenth commandment is: Thou shall not covet. The rest are examples.

Men and Women are equal in worth but have differing roles.

Also in Ephesians 5:
21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[b (http://www.sportscardforum.com/#fen-NIV-29331b)] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”[c (http://www.sportscardforum.com/#fen-NIV-29336c)] 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 08:10 PM
the Bible says that the man and woman become one...so if there is any property to it, both of them would be property

And what does Genesis 3:16 say about it?

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 08:12 PM
I do believe it is a stretch. The tenth commandment is: Thou shall not covet. The rest are examples.

Men and Women are equal in worth but have differing roles.

Also in Ephesians 5:
21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[b (http://www.sportscardforum.com/#fen-NIV-29331b)] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”[c (http://www.sportscardforum.com/#fen-NIV-29336c)] 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Where is the part about the husband submitting to his wife and respecting her?

PDawson21
04-25-2011, 08:17 PM
Where is the part about the husband submitting to his wife and respecting her?

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[b (http://www.sportscardforum.com/#fen-NIV-29331b)] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”[c (http://www.sportscardforum.com/#fen-NIV-29336c)] 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

PDawson21
04-25-2011, 08:21 PM
The act of submission would be giving up your own body for your wife just as Christ gave his life on the cross. The husband has to take care of his wife by providing. That being said, humans are equal (male and female) but they have differing roles.

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 08:30 PM
The act of submission would be giving up your own body for your wife just as Christ gave his life on the cross. The husband has to take care of his wife by providing. That being said, humans are equal (male and female) but they have differing roles.

So what you are saying is that it clearly states the wife's role to submit but we have to interpret the husband's submission.

How about Genesis 3:16

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

What is your interpretation of this?

PDawson21
04-25-2011, 08:35 PM
Has to do with creation story, in particular because she did not ask advice of her husband about eating the fruit, but did it of herself, without talking about it as one flesh and tempted him to do the same.

brandonbarnett
04-25-2011, 08:36 PM
Not to be rude, but isn't this whole thread about if you believe the Bible as fact or fiction, not making other board members go on the offensive and defend there beliefs??

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 08:46 PM
Has to do with creation story, in particular because she did not ask advice of her husband about eating the fruit, but did it of herself, without talking about it as one flesh and tempted him to do the same.

So you are saying, because she did not ask for his advice, she now has to follow his rule? Why does she need to ask Adam for advice if she is equal to him?

PDawson21
04-25-2011, 08:51 PM
Men are the head of the household. It says that. Humans are equal in worth, they have differing roles. What's so hard to understand about that? Just because the husband is the head of the household doesnt mean his life is worth more than hers.

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 08:53 PM
Not to be rude, but isn't this whole thread about if you believe the Bible as fact or fiction, not making other board members go on the offensive and defend there beliefs??

Yes, one of my reasons for my not believing the Bible as fact is religion's depiction and treatment of women. I am not making anyone do anything. And I do not see anyone on the "offensive". They all seem to be taking a "defensive" position. My contention is that the Bible is not God's word, for a God would not elevate MEN to such an obvious level above women. A God, would also not condone slavery. Only MEN in power would condone these elements and in doing so try to pass them of as the "word of God".

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 08:58 PM
Men are the head of the household. It says that. Humans are equal in worth, they have differing roles. What's so hard to understand about that? Just because the husband is the head of the household doesnt mean his life is worth more than hers.

Why are men the head of the household?

Can you re-type that again in BOLD? I have to show this to my wife. She ain't gonna like it but if it's God's word I'm going to have to get her to start acting like the good Catholic girl she was raised.:party0053:

DunkingDurant35
04-25-2011, 09:14 PM
The fact that you do not find it degrading is your choice. No one is telling you how you should feel about it. I am stating how I feel about it. And comparing "limits" of organizations to a "limit" that is contigent on what sex you are is "stretching". Forget the Adam and Eve metaphor, how often does the Bible refer to women as property? Where did the idea of refusing women the right to vote come from?

I'm not sure which verse(s) you're referring to re: "property." If I recall correctly, there may be some in the OT, which I believe had many laws that were specific to the time, place, and biases of a very ancient culture and need not be followed today (Jesus talking about turning the other cheek instead of giving an eye for an eye in the NT is one such example), but I'm not aware of any in the NT. As for refusing the right to vote, where is this in the Bible? I've never heard of any example of this in either the OT or NT; heck, even in the OT, we have a woman who served as a judge (Deborah), which is a heck of a lot of a bigger privilege than voting in some type of election.

PDawson21
04-25-2011, 09:19 PM
Why are men the head of the household?

Can you re-type that again in BOLD? I have to show this to my wife. She ain't gonna like it but if it's God's word I'm going to have to get her to start acting like the good Catholic girl she was raised.:party0053:

But the woman is the neck :winking0071:

Heres the best way to explain it!

Household:

Chirst
Husband-Wife

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 09:32 PM
I'm not sure which verse(s) you're referring to re: "property." If I recall correctly, there may be some in the OT, which I believe had many laws that were specific to the time, place, and biases of a very ancient culture and need not be followed today (Jesus talking about turning the other cheek instead of giving an eye for an eye in the NT is one such example), but I'm not aware of any in the NT. As for refusing the right to vote, where is this in the Bible? I've never heard of any example of this in either the OT or NT; heck, even in the OT, we have a woman who served as a judge (Deborah), which is a heck of a lot of a bigger privilege than voting in some type of election.

So the Old testament is not the "word of God"? Is that what you are saying?

sanfran22
04-25-2011, 09:35 PM
So the Old testament is not the "word of God"? Is that what you are saying?
Noooooo......things changed when Jesus was sent. That's the quick, simplified version.

DunkingDurant35
04-25-2011, 09:37 PM
All right, I caught up on the other replies since I got back on the forum tonight. I see the property verse reference is the OT, which doesn't surprise me; I don't believe there are any in the NT. Christians aren't bound to the myriad of OT laws, and that's been expressed many times. As for the head of the household/ruling stuff, like many things in the Bible, it is symbolic no matter how much both some non-believers and believers want to make it literal. The marriage is compared to the relationship Christ had to the church in the NT - it doesn't mean the man can go around beating up his wife or any such nonsense like that just because he rules the household. If that were so, why are there verses where Paul and Peter talk about wives and non-believing husbands? I mean, c'mon, if the husbands were to rule with an abusive iron fist like some people would want you to believe, then why are wives allowed to have non-believing husbands? In that strict kind of mentality, the husband would be allowed to beat his wife into non-believing submission, right? Well, obviously that's not the case - read 1 Peter 3 and 1 Corinthians 7. Those verses are good for Christians as well because many people take Paul's "unequally yoked" verse out of context too and think that verse means believers should never marry non-believers when the Bible clearly has examples of such marriages.

sanfran22 - Yep, exactly. The Word of God covers a long span of time even when some of the laws way back when became mandatory no longer.

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 09:43 PM
All right, I caught up on the other replies since I got back on the forum tonight. I see the property verse reference is the OT, which doesn't surprise me; I don't believe there are any in the NT. Christians aren't bound to the myriad of OT laws, and that's been expressed many times. As for the head of the household/ruling stuff, like many things in the Bible, it is symbolic no matter how much both some non-believers and believers want to make it literal. The marriage is compared to the relationship Christ had to the church in the NT - it doesn't mean the man can go around beating up his wife or any such nonsense like that just because he rules the household. If that were so, why are there verses where Paul and Peter talk about wives and non-believing husbands? I mean, c'mon, if the husbands were to rule with an abusive iron fist like some people would want you to believe, then why are wives allowed to have non-believing husbands? In that strict kind of mentality, the husband would be allowed to beat his wife into non-believing submission, right? Well, obviously that's not the case - read 1 Peter 3 and 1 Corinthians 7. Those verses are good for Christians as well because many people take Paul's "unequally yoked" verse out of context too and think that verse means believers should never marry non-believers when the Bible clearly has examples of such marriages.

sanfran22 - Yep, exactly. The Word of God covers a long span of time even when some of the laws way back when became mandatory no longer.

Can I get a one-word answer? Is the Old Testament the "word of God"?

PDawson21
04-25-2011, 09:49 PM
Yes, but it is the Old Covenant. We are under the New Coveant.

DunkingDurant35
04-25-2011, 09:51 PM
Yes, and I already answered it such: "The Word of God covers a long span of time even when some of the laws way back when became mandatory no longer." It's not one word, but I don't need to submit to your desires for such because my answer is the same.

tutall
04-25-2011, 09:51 PM
A couple posts I would like to address



I honestly don't have issue with anyone thinking they were created by a god. I just don't want to be legislated by rules of a religion.

You have mentioned this a few times but what exactly are you talking about? I mean... Anything you could put into that catergory I am positive there are non-believers who feel the same way... Just so happens it is a part of christianity... I am a believer and I would have a problem declaring an official religion of a state, or declaring believing a certain way legal/illegal, but most things I see related to this would be issues such as abortion and gay rights, both of which there are many people who have nothing to do with religion against both of them....




How about right here?

Exodus 20:17 lists the last of the Ten Commandments: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ™™™, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."

Sure looks like a piece of property to me.

Give me a break man.... How many times is the womans husband mentioned... it is saying to not covet someone elses spouse in general... but you can believe what you want to about it.

What blows my mind is whenever a believer is talking it is always pushed aside simply because there is no proof yet in the 1600's the earth. according to Science, was flat... It is really not a good argument either way as we are very very far from knowing how the earth was created... Believe it or not I am much in line with what Habs has been saying... I am a very logical thinker and it is tough to wrap my mind around what the bible teaches but I also think to just dismiss it like he does is a little short sighted...

In short... Can you get a one word answer on the OT being the word of god.... Sure.. You can say whatever you want.... fact of the matter is the entire bible is a collection of stories, facts, opinions, letters, first hand accounts, prophecies, psalms, and biographies.... They were all inspired by god, used by god to teach, and used by the prophets to show god....

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 09:56 PM
Yes, and I already answered it such: "The Word of God covers a long span of time even when some of the laws way back when became mandatory no longer." It's not one word, but I don't need to submit to your desires for such because my answer is the same.

So at one time God's word condoned men owning women and men owning slaves. How could a GOD ever condone such things?

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 09:59 PM
A couple posts I would like to address



You have mentioned this a few times but what exactly are you talking about? I mean... Anything you could put into that catergory I am positive there are non-believers who feel the same way... Just so happens it is a part of christianity... I am a believer and I would have a problem declaring an official religion of a state, or declaring believing a certain way legal/illegal, but most things I see related to this would be issues such as abortion and gay rights, both of which there are many people who have nothing to do with religion against both of them....




Give me a break man.... How many times is the womans husband mentioned... it is saying to not covet someone elses spouse in general... but you can believe what you want to about it.

What blows my mind is whenever a believer is talking it is always pushed aside simply because there is no proof yet in the 1600's the earth. according to Science, was flat... It is really not a good argument either way as we are very very far from knowing how the earth was created... Believe it or not I am much in line with what Habs has been saying... I am a very logical thinker and it is tough to wrap my mind around what the bible teaches but I also think to just dismiss it like he does is a little short sighted...

In short... Can you get a one word answer on the OT being the word of god.... Sure.. You can say whatever you want.... fact of the matter is the entire bible is a collection of stories, facts, opinions, letters, first hand accounts, prophecies, psalms, and biographies.... They were all inspired by god, used by god to teach, and used by the prophets to show god....

Where did you get this FACT from? You might want to look at this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth

Why do you think I am "just dismissing it"? I am trying to understand it.

PDawson21
04-25-2011, 10:02 PM
alot of people used to think the world was flat...hence so space travel or telescopes to see any different

DunkingDurant35
04-25-2011, 10:16 PM
So at one time God's word condoned men owning women and men owning slaves. How could a GOD ever condone such things?

Perhaps because people at that time would not have submitted to anything else. Perhaps Jesus had to come to mellow out a lot of people? There could be many reasons; I don't know for sure. However, I do know that people can be stubborn and demand things are stated in a certain way, like with one word or something when another type of response doesn't suit their needs even though the question was obviously answered (btw, my agnostic fiance has never demanded that I state things in one exact word or else; by a similar token, how could a woman-affirming MAN ever demand such things? I can answer in any way I like, and btw, I haven't demanded you answer in exactly one fashion or another; if you believe a response is best suited for one word or a more detailed answer, that is your choice and I'm not going to insist you "do it my way or the highway")

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 10:17 PM
alot of people used to think the world was flat...hence so space travel or telescopes to see any different

Do you really think human kind had to leave the Earth or invent telescopes in order to figure this out? Nevermind. Don't answer, it's to off-topic.

habsheaven
04-25-2011, 10:28 PM
Perhaps because people at that time would not have submitted to anything else. Perhaps Jesus had to come to mellow out a lot of people? There could be many reasons; I don't know for sure. However, I do know that people can be stubborn and demand things are stated in a certain way, like with one word or something when another type of response doesn't suit their needs even though the question was obviously answered (btw, my agnostic fiance has never demanded that I state things in one exact word or else; by a similar token, how could a woman-affirming MAN ever demand such things? I can answer in any way I like, and btw, I haven't demanded you answer in exactly one fashion or another; if you believe a response is best suited for one word or a more detailed answer, that is your choice and I'm not going to insist you "do it my way or the highway")

I never demanded anything, and I certainly didn't imply "OR ELSE". I asked you a simple question and your answer was anything but simple. You might want to go back and read it. (suggestion, not a demand)

You are obviously missing my point. Apparently your GOD, changes his mind based on what His imperfect creation's desire. That's a new take on it. But you are free to believe what you want. I would rather believe (if there was a God) that some of the authors of the Old Testament added their own contributions to the writing to suit their needs. Hence making some of it FICTION. Oh look, the point of the thread!!!

DunkingDurant35
04-25-2011, 11:00 PM
I never demanded anything, and I certainly didn't imply "OR ELSE". I asked you a simple question and your answer was anything but simple. You might want to go back and read it. (suggestion, not a demand)

I answered your 8:32 question in ONE sentence in my second paragraph of that 8:37 post; it doesn't get much simpler than ONE sentence. Can't you tell that most of the more complex part of my post at 8:37 CST, particularly the first paragraph, was also addressing other ground I missed when I was doing other things and had to be away from the forum for a few hours? There were many other replies since my previous posts in the thread, including some other statements you made about the exact nature of marriage, property, etc., so I covered all that, too.

Wow. Did you seriously think that first paragraph was all in response to your 8:32 post only and not other posts? Before asking someone to go back and read something, perhaps you should do so first yourself when you've clearly missed the different contexts of my two paragraphs.

AUTaxMan
04-25-2011, 11:06 PM
I never demanded anything, and I certainly didn't imply "OR ELSE". I asked you a simple question and your answer was anything but simple. You might want to go back and read it. (suggestion, not a demand)

You are obviously missing my point. Apparently your GOD, changes his mind based on what His imperfect creation's desire. That's a new take on it. But you are free to believe what you want. I would rather believe (if there was a God) that some of the authors of the Old Testament added their own contributions to the writing to suit their needs. Hence making some of it FICTION. Oh look, the point of the thread!!!

God did not change His mind based on man's desire. God and Moses made a covenant at Sinai, a covenant which God fulfilled and man did not. There was nothing wrong with the old covenant. Man's failure to live up to it was the problem. Because of God's grace, he designed a new covenant to fulfill his original promises and replace the old legalistic view of what it took to have a personal relationship with Him. In doing so, God took the form of man (Jesus) to bring to man the new covenant.

Aikman_TheGreat
04-26-2011, 02:36 AM
Here's a question I have. If God has a "master plan" and a believer believes that He has a "master plan", why do so many of those believers pray for "results" rather than just pray for "strength and guidance"?

Because we make a mistake in asking for "results", when really we need to pray for just what you said; strength, guidance, and also understanding in his will.

Aikman_TheGreat
04-26-2011, 02:38 AM
As someone who was raised in the Baptist church I can atest to the fact that prayer for strength and guidance is common place. Praying for wants/needs is human nature just like buying a lottery ticket or a raffle ticket for a chance to win a car. Because God has a master plan does not mean he takes away our desire for things.



I agree with that

habsheaven
04-26-2011, 07:59 AM
I answered your 8:32 question in ONE sentence in my second paragraph of that 8:37 post; it doesn't get much simpler than ONE sentence. Can't you tell that most of the more complex part of my post at 8:37 CST, particularly the first paragraph, was also addressing other ground I missed when I was doing other things and had to be away from the forum for a few hours? There were many other replies since my previous posts in the thread, including some other statements you made about the exact nature of marriage, property, etc., so I covered all that, too.

Wow. Did you seriously think that first paragraph was all in response to your 8:32 post only and not other posts? Before asking someone to go back and read something, perhaps you should do so first yourself when you've clearly missed the different contexts of my two paragraphs.

I did read it. Your second paragraph is directed at SanFran22, not me. And with reference to that, saying the "Word of God" spans a great period of time does not answer my question. Yes or No, would have answered my question.

habsheaven
04-26-2011, 08:24 AM
God did not change His mind based on man's desire. God and Moses made a covenant at Sinai, a covenant which God fulfilled and man did not. There was nothing wrong with the old covenant. Man's failure to live up to it was the problem. Because of God's grace, he designed a new covenant to fulfill his original promises and replace the old legalistic view of what it took to have a personal relationship with Him. In doing so, God took the form of man (Jesus) to bring to man the new covenant.

Is this the "word of God"?

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

Theodor Madison
04-26-2011, 08:45 AM
The question one should ask themselves is what is my purpose of existence? Does my life really mean nothing? No one really knows the truth until the truth is revealed to him.

AUTaxMan
04-26-2011, 09:06 AM
Is this the "word of God"?

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

Yes. It is from the Bible. It is the word of God. However, those words (like most everything written) must be read within their context.

habsheaven
04-26-2011, 09:15 AM
Yes. It is from the Bible. It is the word of God. However, those words (like most everything written) must be read within their context.

So how do you read that? I read it as God setting guidelines on how to purchase slaves. Why is there not a Commandment, Thou shall not enslave thy neighbor?

AUTaxMan
04-26-2011, 09:35 AM
So how do you read that? I read it as God setting guidelines on how to purchase slaves. Why is there not a Commandment, Thou shall not enslave thy neighbor?

That's exactly what He was doing. However, you have to think about the context in which those laws were established.

Here are some good sources on the issue:

http://www.comereason.org/soc_culture/soc060.asp

http://bible.org/seriespage/taking-interest-your-neighbor-leviticus-2535-55

duane1969
04-26-2011, 09:44 AM
Have you asked them why they don't?

I don't need to. The Bible clearly explains it.

“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” II Peter 3: 8


For short periods of time, belief in new scientific discoveries is required but science always keeps moving forward. You only have to look at the advancements in medicine to see science at work.

Religion's track record from day one has been to dominate and persecute women and non-believers.

Faith in a concept that is thousands of years old yet still provides no FACTUAL evidence of it's existence is foolish. A logical person would choose to be non-commital to the concept until proof is provided.

So science is infallible and religion is a hoax? You need to spend a little time reading up on your proven science. Science is largely based on theories supported by other theories. Science is nothing more than theories and opinions followed up by a valiant attempt to prove those theories and opinions. All you have to do to find the weakness in science is Google the terms piltdown man or Archaeoraptor to see just how flawed science is. Even recent events concerning scientist getting caught fudging global warming reports is proof enough that science is hardly fact over fiction.

Look at science's major positions...

Big Bang Theory - absolutely NOTHING to support it, yet it is widely accepted as fact in the scientific community.
Evolution - full of holes and hoaxes yet it is the only explaination that science has for our existence.

Take a look back through history at some of the great scientific positions...the Earth is flat, static universe, phrenology, expanding earth, spontaneous generation...all proven wrong.

So much for the factual science being more reliable than the made-up Bible.


I disagree. When are we going to see the first female Pope. Why is it God created Man first and then created woman "for" man afterwards? If that isn't the "Old Boys Network", I do not know what is.

As most people with a basic knowledge of the Bible do, you are misinterpreting it. It says that God created animals to be a companion for man but man was still unhappy, so God created woman from man as a COMPANION to man, not as property.


How about right here?

Exodus 20:17 lists the last of the Ten Commandments: "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ™™™, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's."

Sure looks like a piece of property to me.

And how many times is irrelevant. It is after all God's words and to treat women as property ONCE is once too many times.

I am sure it does seeing as you are being as biased as you possibly can be and looking at it from your own agenda's point of view. Nowhere does it say that man owns his wife. That is simply your interpretation which is blatantly biased.

Star_Cards
04-26-2011, 10:51 AM
Not to speak for Habs, but I don't think he ever said that science is infallible. I myself don;t think this. I know there are flaws with science, but that's how things are found out. Coming up with an idea and testing it to see if it's plausible. It's a trial and error type of thing.

As far as the big bang theory goes... I have no idea if it is the way it happened. Could be could not be. I guess for me the answer really isn't that important. It would be great if one day we could say 100% how it all happened, but it will always be a mystery. However, I'm certainly not basing my system of beliefs off of it or speaking of it like it is known fact like people do with the bible. It's a theory, plain and simple. I look at Creationism as a theory as well. For me, it's much less plausible that man was magically created by a single being in the heavens.

I think for me science is completely different from religion, because science seems to be more open minded and is willing to admit that they are theories and new facts could be brought into play that will update thoughts and ideas. Science is not as personal to people as religion is. Your example about the earth being flat is perfect. Once it was proven that it was in fact round, things were revised to include this new knowledge. To me most science has a basis in fact and logical thinking to create theories or even answer questions no matter if they have flaws in the thinking or not.

habsheaven
04-26-2011, 10:51 AM
I don't need to. The Bible clearly explains it.

“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” II Peter 3: 8

This CLEARLY explains what? That 1 day = 1,000 years? Perhaps the CLEAR explanation is that it is a FABLE? Can you now give me the conversion rate for someone living to be over 900 years old? I am sure your explanation of that is just as crystal clear.


So science is infallible and religion is a hoax? You need to spend a little time reading up on your proven science. Science is largely based on theories supported by other theories. Science is nothing more than theories and opinions followed up by a valiant attempt to prove those theories and opinions. All you have to do to find the weakness in science is Google the terms piltdown man or Archaeoraptor to see just how flawed science is. Even recent events concerning scientist getting caught fudging global warming reports is proof enough that science is hardly fact over fiction.

Look at science's major positions...

Big Bang Theory - absolutely NOTHING to support it, yet it is widely accepted as fact in the scientific community.
Evolution - full of holes and hoaxes yet it is the only explaination that science has for our existence.

Take a look back through history at some of the great scientific positions...the Earth is flat, static universe, phrenology, expanding earth, spontaneous generation...all proven wrong.

So much for the factual science being more reliable than the made-up Bible.

I never said science was infallible. And how do you supposed we proved all these "scientific positions" wrong? That's right, further advances in SCIENCE. I don't recall God sending anyone a vision pointing out the Earth was round.



As most people with a basic knowledge of the Bible do, you are misinterpreting it. It says that God created animals to be a companion for man but man was still unhappy, so God created woman from man as a COMPANION to man, not as property.

Read what you just wrote. First He created animals to be a companion to man, then He created woman to be a companion to man. Do you not see the problem with that terminology. It doesn't take a biased opinion to see the implication of this. It takes a biased opinion to ignore it. If He meant it to represent women as being different from animals, He would have said so.




I am sure it does seeing as you are being as biased as you possibly can be and looking at it from your own agenda's point of view. Nowhere does it say that man owns his wife. That is simply your interpretation which is blatantly biased.

The commandment CLEARLY groups his wife in with a bunch of his other possessions. Are you telling me that it doesn't state he owns his ox or his donkey too? 500 years ago, we would not be having this discussion. We would both be interpreting it the same way. Only society's distaste for it now leads many to shy away from the true meaning.

DunkingDurant35
04-26-2011, 10:56 AM
I did read it. Your second paragraph is directed at SanFran22, not me. And with reference to that, saying the "Word of God" spans a great period of time does not answer my question. Yes or No, would have answered my question.

You sure do nit-pick, don't you? :rolleyes: I was agreeing with sanfran22 because he replied to you about that also and agreed it was the Word of God. It's on the same topic. It was a simple reply. It was one sentence.

Anyway, since you are going to continue to be ridiculous about this and act as though one sentence is not simple enough, I think now is a good time to bow out of the topic. I have plenty of other agnostic friends who don't expect me to be a monosyllabic plastic doll.

habsheaven
04-26-2011, 11:01 AM
You sure do nit-pick, don't you? :rolleyes: I was agreeing with sanfran22 because he replied to you about that also and agreed it was the Word of God. It's on the same topic. It was a simple reply. It was one sentence.

Anyway, since you are going to continue to be ridiculous about this and act as though one sentence is not simple enough, I think now is a good time to bow out of the topic. I have plenty of other agnostic friends who don't expect me to be a monosyllabic plastic doll.

It's not nit-picking. It's asking for a clear concise answer. Saying the "word of God" spans many years was a nice way of avoiding a direct answer. Please bow out of the topic, your answers are anything but answers anyway.

AUTaxMan
04-26-2011, 11:25 AM
Read what you just wrote. First He created animals to be a companion to man, then He created woman to be a companion to man. Do you not see the problem with that terminology. It doesn't take a biased opinion to see the implication of this. It takes a biased opinion to ignore it. If He meant it to represent women as being different from animals, He would have said so.

Habs, this is asinine. You may want to read the Bible as somehow treating women like animals to prove your point, but you are simply wrong. There are many of stories in the Bible about the greatness of women and how women are to be loved and respect by men.

The fact that you choose to ignore these in order to prove your point indicates that you are no longer willing to engage in rational, reasoned debate.

duane1969
04-26-2011, 11:34 AM
Read what you just wrote. First He created animals to be a companion to man, then He created woman to be a companion to man. Do you not see the problem with that terminology. It doesn't take a biased opinion to see the implication of this. It takes a biased opinion to ignore it. If He meant it to represent women as being different from animals, He would have said so.


I didn't realize that calling someone a companion meant that you owned them and they were subservient to you. My honest opinion is that you are nit-picking and have diverted away from logical conversation.

I am unaware of any Christian religion that teaches that women are property or owned. I think you have your religions mixed up. It is Islam that considers women to be little more than cattle.

duane1969
04-26-2011, 11:38 AM
Not to speak for Habs, but I don't think he ever said that science is infallible. I myself don;t think this. I know there are flaws with science, but that's how things are found out. Coming up with an idea and testing it to see if it's plausible. It's a trial and error type of thing.

As far as the big bang theory goes... I have no idea if it is the way it happened. Could be could not be. I guess for me the answer really isn't that important. It would be great if one day we could say 100% how it all happened, but it will always be a mystery. However, I'm certainly not basing my system of beliefs off of it or speaking of it like it is known fact like people do with the bible. It's a theory, plain and simple. I look at Creationism as a theory as well. For me, it's much less plausible that man was magically created by a single being in the heavens.

I think for me science is completely different from religion, because science seems to be more open minded and is willing to admit that they are theories and new facts could be brought into play that will update thoughts and ideas. Science is not as personal to people as religion is. Your example about the earth being flat is perfect. Once it was proven that it was in fact round, things were revised to include this new knowledge. To me most science has a basis in fact and logical thinking to create theories or even answer questions no matter if they have flaws in the thinking or not.

I used the term infallible loosely. The point was that science (which habs clearly bases his positions on) is not perfect and using science to discount religion is a weak position to take since science is not all that "infallible" itself.

I too see religion and science as entirely different things but some people feel the need to argue that one is wrong based on the beliefs, theories or findings of the other. I see that as faulty.

habsheaven
04-26-2011, 11:45 AM
Habs, this is asinine. You may want to read the Bible as somehow treating women like animals to prove your point, but you are simply wrong. There are many of stories in the Bible about the greatness of women and how women are to be loved and respect by men.

The fact that you choose to ignore these in order to prove your point indicates that you are no longer willing to engage in rational, reasoned debate.

I am not saying the Bible is treating women like animals. I am saying there are many places in religious texts that CLEARLY do not give women the same standing as man. Loving and respecting a woman is a far cry from considering her an equal.

Please address the commandment. Thou shalt not covet. Why is the commandment directed at the husband? Why is the term "spouse" (or something similar) not used? That is hardly an assinine question.

habsheaven
04-26-2011, 11:47 AM
I used the term infallible loosely. The point was that science (which habs clearly bases his positions on) is not perfect and using science to discount religion is a weak position to take since science is not all that "infallible" itself.

I too see religion and science as entirely different things but some people feel the need to argue that one is wrong based on the beliefs, theories or findings of the other. I see that as faulty.

I do not have a POSITION. I clearly stated that earlier.

AUTaxMan
04-26-2011, 12:01 PM
I am not saying the Bible is treating women like animals. I am saying there are many places in religious texts that CLEARLY do not give women the same standing as man. Loving and respecting a woman is a far cry from considering her an equal.

Please address the commandment. Thou shalt not covet. Why is the commandment directed at the husband? Why is the term "spouse" (or something similar) not used? That is hardly an asinine question.

My understanding was that in society at the time, from a legal perspective, wives were generally viewed as the property of the husband, and that wives had no marital rights. Around the world, many women still do not have all of the legal rights as men, and they didn't in the U.S. until the 20th century.

Star_Cards
04-26-2011, 12:11 PM
I used the term infallible loosely. The point was that science (which habs clearly bases his positions on) is not perfect and using science to discount religion is a weak position to take since science is not all that "infallible" itself.

I too see religion and science as entirely different things but some people feel the need to argue that one is wrong based on the beliefs, theories or findings of the other. I see that as faulty.

I'll still take science over faith.

AUTaxMan
04-26-2011, 12:13 PM
I'll still take science over faith.

Does reliance on science not require faith? Either way, you are relying on faith. You are merely choosing faith in man over faith in God.

sanfran22
04-26-2011, 12:19 PM
Does reliance on science not require faith? Either way, you are relying on faith. You are merely choosing faith in man over faith in God.
Exactly.......

habsheaven
04-26-2011, 12:25 PM
My understanding was that in society at the time, from a legal perspective, wives were generally viewed as the property of the husband, and that wives had no marital rights. Around the world, many women still do not have all of the legal rights as men, and they didn't in the U.S. until the 20th century.

I agree. That is why I contend that the Bible is not the "word of God", it is the words of MEN.

AUTaxMan
04-26-2011, 12:27 PM
I agree. That is why I contend that the Bible is not the "word of God", it is the words of MEN.

You contend that the Bible is not the word of God because it contains language that was applicable to society at the time?

habsheaven
04-26-2011, 12:29 PM
Does reliance on science not require faith? Either way, you are relying on faith. You are merely choosing faith in man over faith in God.

Yes, with science you are relying on faith until further testing can prove your hypothesis. Whereas with religion, you are forever denying science so that you can continue to rely on your faith in God. There is a big difference in the two.

habsheaven
04-26-2011, 12:34 PM
You contend that the Bible is not the word of God because it contains language that was applicable to society at the time?

No, it is not the word of God because it contains "attitudes" that were applicable to the time? Does not God transcend time and space? Are not his words the TRUTH? If so, they should not reflect attitudes of an imperfect society.

Star_Cards
04-26-2011, 12:45 PM
Does reliance on science not require faith? Either way, you are relying on faith. You are merely choosing faith in man over faith in God.

Not all science is faith. If I let go of a ball as I sit at my computer it will drop to the ground. I don't trust that it will drop. I know that it will drop 100% of the time. It's not blind faith in a book that one thinks men wrote through a link to a creator.

Again, everyone is left to believe what they would like. My major issue with religion is that people want to use it to govern everyone regardless of belief.

GiantsSB42Champs
04-26-2011, 12:50 PM
false no reason to even go further.

AUTaxMan
04-26-2011, 12:52 PM
No, it is not the word of God because it contains "attitudes" that were applicable to the time? Does not God transcend time and space? Are not his words the TRUTH? If so, they should not reflect attitudes of an imperfect society.

Of course the Bible has a human voice. It was written by men who were guided by the Holy Spirit. "First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." 2 Peter 1:20-21.

One author put it like this: "To assure verbal precision God, in communicating his revelation, must be verbally precise, and inspiration must extend to the very words. This does not mean that God dictated every word. Rather his Spirit so pervaded the mind of the human writer that he chose out of his own vocabulary and experience precisely those words, thoughts and expressions that conveyed God's message with precision. In this sense the words of the human authors of Scripture can be viewed as the word of God."

habsheaven
04-26-2011, 01:11 PM
Of course the Bible has a human voice. It was written by men who were guided by the Holy Spirit. "First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." 2 Peter 1:20-21.

One author put it like this: "To assure verbal precision God, in communicating his revelation, must be verbally precise, and inspiration must extend to the very words. This does not mean that God dictated every word. Rather his Spirit so pervaded the mind of the human writer that he chose out of his own vocabulary and experience precisely those words, thoughts and expressions that conveyed God's message with precision. In this sense the words of the human authors of Scripture can be viewed as the word of God."

Okay, so how does that explain all the passage condoning slavery? Is this God's message?

AUTaxMan
04-26-2011, 01:27 PM
Okay, so how does that explain all the passage condoning slavery? Is this God's message?

You must have missed the two links I posted earlier explaining those passages in their context.

gatorboymike
04-26-2011, 02:36 PM
To attempt to say that science and religion are the same is either pure ignorance or pure madness. They could not possibly be more different.

Religionists often try to discredit scientific theories such as evolution by saying "oh, that's JUST a theory," attempting to imply that it's nothing but a wacky guess that some old man thought up in the middle of the night after 13 cups of coffee. Then they say that people have FAITH in these, as if we were all just sitting around twiddling our thumbs until we heard this wacky guess, and then we all said "Hey, that sounds good to me! Starting now I just believe that for no reason, with all my heart! I mean, look at that guy, he has a lab coat on, so he must be right!"

What a steaming pile of wretched, abject nonsense and lies. You've just described RELIGION, not SCIENCE, buddy boy, only swap out "vision" for "theory" and "robe and collar" for "lab coat." Religion works by someone claiming to have had a divine visitation, a magical vision, a supernatural infusion of otherwise unobtainable knowledge, or just "I feel it in my heart," whatever that means. Then the seething masses listen to this individual and decide to take him at his word, without question and without evidence, because the madness he's bleating through his frothy teeth makes them feel important and better about themselves and better than everyone else and not responsible for their actions and entitled to things no one could ever possibly be entitled to. That's how religion works.

A scientific theory isn't a guess. It's a comprehensive model formulated to explain how an observable process occurs, which is supported by mountains of facts and explains how they are all interrelated. Of course they can be revised or overturned altogether, but you know what causes that? Somebody comes up with a better theory. No clergyman, cleric or apologist has ever overturned anything in science. Other scientists, working with more accurate information and more sophisticated equipment, overturn theories.

And here's the most important distinctions of all between science and religion: Science is observable and demonstrable, and religion is faith-based. If you want an explanation for why some idea is accepted by the scientific community, you can actually go and find out what the evidence is and what the reasoning is. And if you doubt somebody's claims, you can go and test them yourself. In religion, you have to rely on blind faith. No evidence, no questions, just sit down, shut up and believe every word of it, or else the devil is gonna getcha. You just have to take somebody's word for it, because they're much godlier than you, and in touch with divine wisdom that a lowly sinner like you is unworthy of.

Science is evidenciary, and self-correcting. Religion is dogmatic and authoritarian. Scientists don't get famous by agreeing with each other. They get famous by proving each other wrong. If one scientist makes a mistake in an experiment or uses flawed reasoning in a theory, others can and will figure out where, why and how he's wrong. Creationists and religious fanatics often imply that there's some kind of conspiracy surrounding theories like evolution. They obviously know nothing about how the scientific process works or what the scientific community is like. The guy who could overturn the theory of evolution or the big bang theory would become THE GUY. And because religious fanatics take such issue with theories like those, you can bet that those theories have been subjected the most scrutiny of all. So far, nobody has ever been able to shoot them down. And if you're going to say that some cleric or apologist has been able to, and science just can't admit that it's wrong...or if you're going to say that there's no evidence for those theories in the first place (like, ahem, CERTAIN PEOPLE did, a few posts back)...then you are either woefully ignorant about the subject, or you're just a liar.

AUTaxMan
04-26-2011, 02:47 PM
Why are you so angry?

mrveggieman
04-26-2011, 02:58 PM
Welcome to the question that we will never get an answer until the end of time. As far as the Bible being fact or fiction no one hear can say for a fact weather it is or is not. Just like no one can say the Quron, The Egyptian Book of the Dead, The Hindu Texts, or any other sacred book is or is not 100% for sure the word of God or not the word of God. The bottom line is to worship God in a manner that works the best for you. At the end God (or whatever name you call him) if you believe in him will determine what and who is right and who and what is wrong so it is not neccessary to get man's approval for your walk with God.

Star_Cards
04-26-2011, 02:58 PM
well said GBM.

gatorboymike
04-26-2011, 03:08 PM
Why are you so angry?

Because you and your comrades are methodically working to tear down the things I value and equate them with the raving lunatics squirming around on church floors babbling nonsense words at the ceiling.

Because you and your comrades are methodically working to subvert the government and the military.

Because you and your comrades are methodically working to turn the public educational system into a brainwashing/recruitment machine for your religion.

Because you and your comrades do terrible things to me and people like me on a regular basis.

Because you and your comrades demand undue respect, deference, consideration and acceptance while offering the exact opposite to everyone else.

But at this moment, because you and your comrades just ignore everything you don't want to hear with the excuse that "Oh, he's angry, that means I don't have to listen to anything he says, woo hoo!"

AUTaxMan
04-26-2011, 03:13 PM
Because you and your comrades are methodically working to tear down the things I value and equate them with the raving lunatics squirming around on church floors babbling nonsense words at the ceiling.

False.


Because you and your comrades are methodically working to subvert the government and the military.

False.


Because you and your comrades are methodically working to turn the public educational system into a brainwashing/recruitment machine for your religion.

False.


Because you and your comrades do terrible things to me and people like me on a regular basis.

False.


Because you and your comrades demand undue respect, deference, consideration and acceptance while offering the exact opposite to everyone else.

False.


But at this moment, because you and your comrades just ignore everything you don't want to hear with the excuse that "Oh, he's angry, that means I don't have to listen to anything he says, woo hoo!"

False.

You cannot support a single one of those statements with anything I have written in this thread. I would be happy to engage you in a logical discussion of any of your above allegations, however.

gatorboymike
04-26-2011, 03:15 PM
And you didn't respond to anything I said in my longer post. A single sentence about me being angry, trying to divert the discussion. Red herring fallacy. You might as well have responded with nothing but "ur stuped lol."

AUTaxMan
04-26-2011, 03:17 PM
And you didn't respond to anything I said in my longer post. A single sentence about me being angry, trying to divert the discussion. Red herring fallacy. You might as well have responded with nothing but "ur stuped lol."

It was a simple question. I meant no offense by it. Would you like me to respond to your statement?

gatorboymike
04-26-2011, 03:19 PM
If you wish. I felt like expressing myself in regard to some of the things said earlier in the topic. If you want to respond to that, go ahead. But I'm not going to diverge into me being angry or any other diversion.

habsheaven
04-26-2011, 03:23 PM
You must have missed the two links I posted earlier explaining those passages in their context.

I did miss them. Just read the first.

The first link speaks about the treatment of “countrymen” and the protections that should be provided to them. I can understand that. And it sounds reasonable, but it does not address the passages in Leviticus 25:44 "And as for your male and female slaves whom you may have-from the nations that are around you, from them you may buy male and female slaves."

I will try to read the second tonight and comment further.

AUTaxMan
04-26-2011, 03:43 PM
GBM,

First of all, your tone is very defensive. I am not going to debate you analysis of the scientific process, because it is generally accurate. I have great respect and appreciation for science, and I believe that there is a happy medium where science and religion can co-exist. It requires both sides of the aisle to show a little humility and acknowledge that the other does have a place in this world.

For example, science has all but proven that the world wasn't created in 3 or 4 days, as biblical literalists would have us believe, but that also doesn't mean that since the Bible uses the term "days" to describe creation (to me, an obvious, but because the world wasn't created in six literal days, that the Bible is fallible (i.e., God is allowed to use figures of speech and illustrations too).

On the other hand, science must admit that there are things that simply cannot be proven and that the most reasonable explanation must be the work of a higher being. For example, the big bang. It had to start with something. What created the something from nothing?

I have merely been attempting to illustrate that reliance on scientific theories as our foundation of knowledge of certain things requires no little bit of faith in certain circumstances. I have neither stated nor implied that scientists are a bunch of wackos.

You have to admit that science has become a religion to many. Many people blindly accept what this or that scientific mind (or group of minds) hypothesizes as gospel (pun intended). I am not saying that you are one of these people, but it is a fact.

I take offense to your assertion that no questions are asked with respect to religion and faith, and I especially take offense to your projection on me that I think that I am better than you in any aspect. I never said nor implied that. Also, there are millions of books debating the nuances of Christian theology and faith. We don't sit down and shut up. We discuss, debate, reflect, and share. I certainly am no more guilty of trivializing science than you are of religion.

I also am saddened that you see religion as dogmatic and authoritarian. My wish would be for you to see it as freeing and uplifting.

gatorboymike
04-26-2011, 04:22 PM
GBM,

First of all, your tone is very defensive. I am not going to debate you analysis of the scientific process, because it is generally accurate. I have great respect and appreciation for science, and I believe that there is a happy medium where science and religion can co-exist. It requires both sides of the aisle to show a little humility and acknowledge that the other does have a place in this world.

There are scientists who still follow some religion or other. Not having access to their inner thoughts, I don't know how they do it. I don't know how one can claim adherence to doctrines that go against all the work they do in their profession, on both intellectual and visceral grounds. I suppose you could say science and religion can coexist in places where we really don't know what's going on, such as the origin of the universe, where it's a "your guess is as good as mine" situation. The problem is, religion has a track record of not showing much humility or tolerance in those situations.


For example, science has all but proven that the world wasn't created in 3 or 4 days, as biblical literalists would have us believe, but that also doesn't mean that since the Bible uses the term "days" to describe creation (to me, an obvious, but because the world wasn't created in six literal days, that the Bible is fallible (i.e., God is allowed to use figures of speech and illustrations too).

Well, you deserve credit for admitting that. The problem is, there are literalists out there with a political agenda and a vast base of donors.


On the other hand, science must admit that there are things that simply cannot be proven and that the most reasonable explanation must be the work of a higher being. For example, the big bang. It had to start with something. What created the something from nothing?

If you actually read up on the theory, it does NOT say something came from nothing. That's a strawman argument, and anyone who says that's what the theory does say is either ignorant or lying. It doesn't say anything about where the matter in the universe came from or how the event was initiated. It says you can only get back as far as a tiny fraction of time after time t=0, beyond which the physical laws of the universe were fundamentally different from how they have been ever since, and we simply don't know what happened. Some people have hypotheses about that, but we just don't know yet. But it's not the most reasonable explanation to assume there's a higher being. That's an argument from ignorance. That's saying "I can't think of any other way it could have happened, so it must have happened this way." Well, I'm sorry but that's just not a good argument. When you don't know something, the only honest thing to say is that you don't know. Sure, you can guess, but that's all it is: a guess. And as per the previous paragraph, your guess is as good as anyone else's. The problem is, religion wants to say that its guess is some kind of supernatural wisdom from a supernatural being revealed through supernatural means, which we poor primates are just too stupid to ever understand and therefore we should accept without question. You can't do that in science.


I have merely been attempting to illustrate that reliance on scientific theories as our foundation of knowledge of certain things requires no little bit of faith in certain circumstances. I have neither stated nor implied that scientists are a bunch of wackos.

You have to admit that science has become a religion to many. Many people blindly accept what this or that scientific mind (or group of minds) hypothesizes as gospel (pun intended). I am not saying that you are one of these people, but it is a fact.

Well, then those people are doing it wrong. Ask any actual scientist, not some lulu on the internet, and they'll tell you that everything in science is tentative. In other words, "This is the best explanation we have at this time." An ironic twist of history is that the big bang theory was actually given its name by its most vocal opponent, Sir Fred Hoyle. He was a brilliant man, but he was also, unfortunately, a scientific dogmatist. He was a passionate adherent of steady state theory, which has been abandoned.

None of us can be experts on everything. Most of us lack the education and even the capacity to be experts in any field of science. So we do have to rely on experts to figure out things we can't figure out for ourselves. If you want to call that faith, go ahead. But I don't, and the reason why not is because of the religious connotations and denotations of that word. Religionists use the word faith to mean an amalgamation of confidence, hope and trust. But faith is supposed to be blind, and trust is evidenciary. I don't have faith that what any one scientist says is absolute truth. I have trust that the scientific community as a whole will produce more accurate information over time. The difference is unjustified trust vs. justified trust, and this trust is justified because science has a track record of doing just that. Religionists like to imply that any situation in which you have less than 100% certainty, you have 100% faith, exactly as much, of exactly the same type as they have in their god. Well, that is absolutely wrong. There is no such thing as 100% certaintly in science, but neither is there 100% faith.


I take offense to your assertion that no questions are asked with respect to religion and faith, and I especially take offense to your projection on me that I think that I am better than you in any aspect. I never said nor implied that. Also, there are millions of books debating the nuances of Christian theology and faith. We don't sit down and shut up. We discuss, debate, reflect, and share. I certainly am no more guilty of trivializing science than you are of religion.

I also am saddened that you see religion as dogmatic and authoritarian. My wish would be for you to see it as freeing and uplifting.

Well then I apologize if those things I said don't apply to you personally. But they do apply to most of the religionists I've known personally and most of the religious leaders who I've heard from. As for seeing it as dogmatic and authoritarian, that's probably an outside vs. inside deal. I'm sure religionists feel free and uplifted, but I don't see them that way. I think they've just chained their minds to the first idea that feels freeing and uplifting without really caring if it's true or not. People who don't care if their beliefs reflect reality or not are dangerous and intellectually dishonest. They're obligated to deny reality when reality doesn't mesh with their preferred beliefs, and that's why I find religion imprisoning.

jdawg
04-26-2011, 04:35 PM
its a story written by a bunch of gullible misguided people...I personally find it ridiculous to give the creation of everything to a person or thing that cant be proven to exist...even harder to believe when it can all be explained by science that we can prove

sanfran22
04-26-2011, 06:58 PM
Because you and your comrades are methodically working to tear down the things I value and equate them with the raving lunatics squirming around on church floors babbling nonsense words at the ceiling.

Because you and your comrades are methodically working to subvert the government and the military.

Because you and your comrades are methodically working to turn the public educational system into a brainwashing/recruitment machine for your religion.

Because you and your comrades do terrible things to me and people like me on a regular basis.

Because you and your comrades demand undue respect, deference, consideration and acceptance while offering the exact opposite to everyone else.

But at this moment, because you and your comrades just ignore everything you don't want to hear with the excuse that "Oh, he's angry, that means I don't have to listen to anything he says, woo hoo!"
Hmmmm, alot of that sounds like the "progressive" agenda.:scared0012:

sanfran22
04-26-2011, 07:01 PM
its a story written by a bunch of gullible misguided people...I personally find it ridiculous to give the creation of everything to a person or thing that cant be proven to exist...even harder to believe when it can all be explained by science that we can prove
Really? Prove to me a rock is 20 billion years old.....Carbon dating, really?

gatorboymike
04-26-2011, 08:26 PM
Really? Prove to me a rock is 20 billion years old.....Carbon dating, really?

This is what happens when you let Kent Hovind do your thinking for you.

sanfran22
04-26-2011, 08:58 PM
Because you and your comrades are methodically working to tear down the things I value and equate them with the raving lunatics squirming around on church floors babbling nonsense words at the ceiling.

Because you and your comrades are methodically working to subvert the government and the military.

Because you and your comrades are methodically working to turn the public educational system into a brainwashing/recruitment machine for your religion.

Because you and your comrades do terrible things to me and people like me on a regular basis.

Because you and your comrades demand undue respect, deference, consideration and acceptance while offering the exact opposite to everyone else.

But at this moment, because you and your comrades just ignore everything you don't want to hear with the excuse that "Oh, he's angry, that means I don't have to listen to anything he says, woo hoo!"
And this is what happens when you let ignorance and anger think for you.....Thanks for coming to the conversation though.....

mrveggieman
04-27-2011, 09:45 AM
This is an interesting discussion. Please continue.

Star_Cards
04-27-2011, 10:13 AM
On the other hand, science must admit that there are things that simply cannot be proven and that the most reasonable explanation must be the work of a higher being. For example, the big bang. It had to start with something. What created the something from nothing?

I couldn't disagree more with this statement. If something can't be proven, a higher being isn't anything close to the first thing that I jump to as a reasonable possibility. I actually see jumping to the conclusion that a higher being is responsible to help people understand why unexplained happenings occur is a a bit of a cop out. It's easy to say "My dad died, because it was God's plan." or "That tornado didn't take my house by the grace of God". Sure it's a coping mechanism, but it's out there in my opinion.

As far as the Big Bang Theory, (great show by the way lol) people that think it's a plausible theory don't run out and base their belief system off of that, or at least I don't and the other friends that I know that question religion don't. Most people that I know that think the BBT is plausible are definitely open minded enough to know that it could have easily been some other way. It's like the Kennedy assassination, we'll never know what happened but it's interesting to talk about from time to time. Most people I run across that think God created everything think so because the bible says it's so and because of that they think it's 100% so. Of course that's not to say everyone does. That sort of philosophy is just too easy for.


You have to admit that science has become a religion to many. Many people blindly accept what this or that scientific mind (or group of minds) hypothesizes as gospel (pun intended). I am not saying that you are one of these people, but it is a fact.

For me science is not a religion. I don't obsess over how things were created or worship the big bang theory or follow the teachings of any famous scientist. I can only speak for me, but science makes the most sense and can present me with concrete evidence or well thought out theories about how things happen or happened. If I can see things working for myself, I lean towards that rather than to some mysterious higher power. Directing me to a book that was created by unknown men does nothing for me. I have no reference of their motives for creating such a book. I see the bible as a story book, a story book with some valuable lessons, but a story book with no way of knowing who created the text. I definitely don't view it as a complete guide to how everyone should live. I believe for the most part religion was/is created for people of power to control the masses. "Do this or God will punish you." type of stuff. Yes some of the bible rules are good rules, but that doesn't mean they all are. I also don't think that people of faith are mindless drones, but when it comes to certain aspects some are and can be. I know that people that live their life by the teachings of a religion don't want to hear that and are probably greatly offended that I think so little of their religion, but those are my feelings I have from my experiences so far in life. That's not to say that nothing good has come from religion and that's not to say that I think having religion is wrong. It is an issue for me when some people want to force others to do things by their religious rules and there are a lot of people out there these days that feel that their religion should be the way that our laws should be written. To me that is wrong.


I take offense to your assertion that no questions are asked with respect to religion and faith, and I especially take offense to your projection on me that I think that I am better than you in any aspect. I never said nor implied that. Also, there are millions of books debating the nuances of Christian theology and faith. We don't sit down and shut up. We discuss, debate, reflect, and share. I certainly am no more guilty of trivializing science than you are of religion.

I agree with you that you, specifically, have not said anything to state that you are better than any of us that don't believe, but speaking for me, there are a lot of religious types out there that do. For example, there are many so called christian leaders out there that make homosexuals feel like they are less than them or that the way the are makes God hate them. I'm quite open minded and know that these people that feel this way does not mean everyone that is christian or any religion feels this way, but a lot of people within the faith do and it helps promote prejudices in my opinion. It also causes a lot of people a lot of hurt being told that how they feel is evil or wrong.

mrveggieman
04-27-2011, 10:32 AM
Hey guys I'm not trying to promote any particular religion or belief but I think that when you get a chance you should google Proof for the existance of God by Rene Descartes. LMK if you do so and what your thoughts and opinions are of it.

AUTaxMan
04-27-2011, 10:33 AM
If I can see things working for myself, I lean towards that rather than to some mysterious higher power. Directing me to a book that was created by unknown men does nothing for me. I have no reference of their motives for creating such a book. I see the bible as a story book, a story book with some valuable lessons, but a story book with no way of knowing who created the text. I definitely don't view it as a complete guide to how everyone should live. I believe for the most part religion was/is created for people of power to control the masses. "Do this or God will punish you." type of stuff. Yes some of the bible rules are good rules, but that doesn't mean they all are. I also don't think that people of faith are mindless drones, but when it comes to certain aspects some are and can be. I know that people that live their life by the teachings of a religion don't want to hear that and are probably greatly offended that I think so little of their religion, but those are my feelings I have from my experiences so far in life. That's not to say that nothing good has come from religion and that's not to say that I think having religion is wrong. It is an issue for me when some people want to force others to do things by their religious rules and there are a lot of people out there these days that feel that their religion should be the way that our laws should be written. To me that is wrong.

I don't want to be dismissive of what you have said, because you make some good points, and I wouldn't mind delving into certain of these issues at some point in the future. However, in the interest of time (some of us do actually have to work), I'd like to return to topic.

You see the Bible as a story book with some valuable lessons but nothing more. What is the basis of that belief?

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 10:34 AM
Star Cards - very well said.

I have another question that I would be curious to see the opinions of the believers on.

Will I be spending eternity in that "hot" place?

Star_Cards
04-27-2011, 10:36 AM
And this is what happens when you let ignorance and anger think for you.....Thanks for coming to the conversation though.....

I thought that Gators last post was very well written and wasn't angry at all. I don't know gator at all except from his posts, but his last post was quite well written and level headed in my opinion. It sort of seems like you just want to poke him with a stick. He writes a well thought out post of his ideas and you call him angry and ignorant. Seems a bit ironic to me.

AUTaxMan
04-27-2011, 10:36 AM
Star Cards - very well said.

I have another question that I would be curious to see the opinions of the believers on.

Will I be spending eternity in that "hot" place?

I certainly hope not, but from a Christian perspective, if you have not accepted Jesus into your heart as your savior, then you will. Only God can be the judge of that, though.

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 10:48 AM
Hey guys I'm not trying to promote any particular religion or belief but I think that when you get a chance you should google Proof for the existance of God by Rene Descartes. LMK if you do so and what your thoughts and opinions are of it.

I just tried to read through it. Didn't see anything resembling "proof". Unless you want a proven cure for insomnia.

karnivore
04-27-2011, 10:51 AM
its a story written by a bunch of gullible misguided people...I personally find it ridiculous to give the creation of everything to a person or thing that cant be proven to exist...even harder to believe when it can all be explained by science that we can prove


How can science prove how the ACL was concieved? You mean to tell me that through evolution from a single celled organism that pieces of our body was intricately weaved to form it?

Can science explain Ethical Beliefs?

Even one of the most well known scientists even believe in a higher being

"I'm not an atheist (http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheist). I don't think I can call myself a pantheist (http://www.conservapedia.com/Pantheist). The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws."

Dudes name is Albert Einstein. Alot of other well-known scientists also believed in a higher being (Copernicus, Sir Francis Bacon, Isaac Newton, etc) If most of the leading people in your field believes someone started all of this, and every time you try to prove its fake and fail, why not try to help see why it is real?

Everyone has their beliefs, but if for roughly the last couple hundreds years that people have tried to disprove Christianity, and still haven't, you dont see this as a basis that it could actually be real?

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 10:52 AM
I certainly hope not, but from a Christian perspective, if you have not accepted Jesus into your heart as your savior, then you will. Only God can be the judge of that, though.

So you are saying, despite my not accepting Jesus, I still have a chance at going to Heaven. That's good to know.

karnivore
04-27-2011, 10:53 AM
Star Cards - very well said.

I have another question that I would be curious to see the opinions of the believers on.

Will I be spending eternity in that "hot" place?


It depends on which religion you would want to base it on, seeing as you don't believe in any (Not a insult, just seeing it as your saying your an Athiest)

Others believe in the reincarnation, but since you don't believe you might be something not worthy and be a bug or something? (Not too known in reincarnation)

But for my personal beliefs, if you don't believe Jesus died and rose again, for the most part most of the people will go to Hell. But it says in the Bible God judges accordingly, so who knows exactly the guidelines for non-believers?

AUTaxMan
04-27-2011, 10:54 AM
So you are saying, despite my not accepting Jesus, I still have a chance at going to Heaven. That's good to know.

No, you missed the point. Only God and you know whether you've accepted Jesus into your heart. I cannot make that assessment.

Star_Cards
04-27-2011, 10:57 AM
I don't want to be dismissive of what you have said, because you make some good points, and I wouldn't mind delving into certain of these issues at some point in the future. However, in the interest of time (some of us do actually have to work), I'd like to return to topic.

You see the Bible as a story book with some valuable lessons but nothing more. What is the basis of that belief?

I guess my basis, one that isn't by any means set in stone or complete, is because I simply don't believe there to be a book that was written by or through the words of a higher being. Although a bible with God's author photo on the back would be sweet :). I can't see the reality in that and when people tell me it was written by god or by man through the word of god himself I can't and don't believe that. I don't believe early man started with adam and eve and I don't think the bible or even books were around while early man roamed the earth. I'm no expert on the bible/christianity, but it's rather new in the scheme of the world goes from my understanding. If the world was created by god and it's typically seen as being billions of years old, why is the bible and christianity so new when compared to the years the earth has been around? That leaves me to believe that religion was created by man for whatever reason and not by god and presented to man.

I guess one would or could say that it's because that is the timing when jesus was sent to teach of christianity, but like much of religion nothing can really be explained with any sort of certainty. Maybe the problem is that in the past people of power have used christianity to try to control and heard people that I'm jaded.

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 10:58 AM
How can science prove how the ACL was concieved? You mean to tell me that through evolution from a single celled organism that pieces of our body was intricately weaved to form it?

Can science explain Ethical Beliefs?

Even one of the most well known scientists even believe in a higher being

"I'm not an atheist (http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheist). I don't think I can call myself a pantheist (http://www.conservapedia.com/Pantheist). The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws."

Dudes name is Albert Einstein. Alot of other well-known scientists also believed in a higher being (Copernicus, Sir Francis Bacon, Isaac Newton, etc) If most of the leading people in your field believes someone started all of this, and every time you try to prove its fake and fail, why not try to help see why it is real?

Everyone has their beliefs, but if for roughly the last couple hundreds years that people have tried to disprove Christianity, and still haven't, you dont see this as a basis that it could actually be real?

Where in that quote from Einstein do you see him saying he believes in a higher power? I read it as him admitting he doesn't know what to believe. and FWIW, I do not have any beliefs one way or the other. So not everyone has their beliefs.

sanfran22
04-27-2011, 11:00 AM
I thought that Gators last post was very well written and wasn't angry at all. I don't know gator at all except from his posts, but his last post was quite well written and level headed in my opinion. It sort of seems like you just want to poke him with a stick. He writes a well thought out post of his ideas and you call him angry and ignorant. Seems a bit ironic to me.
Really? Then you need to read alittle further on...

sanfran22
04-27-2011, 11:02 AM
So you are saying, despite my not accepting Jesus, I still have a chance at going to Heaven. That's good to know.
No, you have to accept Him. Only way........"I am the way, the Truth, and the Light. No one enters the kingdom except through Me.
Judging by you comments throughout this entire thread, you have not accepted. It is a matter between you and God. We are just here to "plant the seed" as it were.

karnivore
04-27-2011, 11:04 AM
"I'm not an atheist (http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheist). I don't think I can call myself a pantheist (http://www.conservapedia.com/Pantheist). The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws."

1.When he says he is not a Athiest, who don't believe in the existence of a Higher Power, then what is he?

2. Admitting that "someone must have written these books" to me seems like he is saying a higher being wrote the books, but we have no understanding of it.

3. So we can barely understand the laws, which means someone had to write them, right?

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 11:06 AM
No, you missed the point. Only God and you know whether you've accepted Jesus into your heart. I cannot make that assessment.

Okay, well you weren't very clear in your answer. Looked like there was a glimmer of hope, a "stay of execution" if you will. So if I do not accept Jesus in my heart, I am definitely going to HE double hockey sticks.

karnivore
04-27-2011, 11:06 AM
Where in that quote from Einstein do you see him saying he believes in a higher power? I read it as him admitting he doesn't know what to believe. and FWIW, I do not have any beliefs one way or the other. So not everyone has their beliefs.


Wouldnt that mean your belief is to not have beliefs? Conundrum!

BTW, I am not in no way saying that I have all the answers to these, just giving my personal beliefs. I enjoy getting to know others ways of thinking, so by no ways whatever I put on here be a insult to anyone else.

AUTaxMan
04-27-2011, 11:07 AM
Okay, well you weren't very clear in your answer. Looked like there was a glimmer of hope, a "stay of execution" if you will. So if I do not accept Jesus in my heart, I am definitely going to HE double hockey sticks.

That is correct. The good news is that you still have time. :)

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 11:13 AM
"I'm not an atheist (http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheist). I don't think I can call myself a pantheist (http://www.conservapedia.com/Pantheist). The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws."

1.When he says he is not a Athiest, who don't believe in the existence of a Higher Power, then what is he?

2. Admitting that "someone must have written these books" to me seems like he is saying a higher being wrote the books, but we have no understanding of it.

3. So we can barely understand the laws, which means someone had to write them, right?

No, it means he doesn't know what to believe. I see it as a timeline. The kid is plopped down on a timeline. He sees everything around him and knows something came before him, but he doesn't know where he is on the timeline or how he got there. The writer of the books could be an inch away on that timeline that stretches for a mile.

karnivore
04-27-2011, 11:16 AM
No, it means he doesn't know what to believe. I see it as a timeline. The kid is plopped down on a timeline. He sees everything around him and knows something came before him, but he doesn't know where he is on the timeline or how he got there. The writer of the books could be an inch away on that timeline that stretches for a mile.

I can see how you got your reasoning, but but don't understand the last sentence. The writer of the books is not a higher power? Confused a little haha.

But the way I see it. Mr. Albert says that there is a higher power that our minds can possibly not wrap around, but since the higher power lets violence and corruption ensue (which also brings compassion into the world) he see him as a God who has no say so on the world.

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 11:18 AM
It depends on which religion you would want to base it on, seeing as you don't believe in any (Not a insult, just seeing it as your saying your an Athiest)

Others believe in the reincarnation, but since you don't believe you might be something not worthy and be a bug or something? (Not too known in reincarnation)

But for my personal beliefs, if you don't believe Jesus died and rose again, for the most part most of the people will go to Hell. But it says in the Bible God judges accordingly, so who knows exactly the guidelines for non-believers?

I am not saying I am an Atheist. My position is this. I do not believe in religion. I am pretty sure that is much different from the definition of an Athiest. But based on your beliefs, I still have a chance of entering the pearly gates :)

Star_Cards
04-27-2011, 11:24 AM
How can science prove how the ACL was concieved? You mean to tell me that through evolution from a single celled organism that pieces of our body was intricately weaved to form it?

Can science explain Ethical Beliefs?

Even one of the most well known scientists even believe in a higher being

"I'm not an atheist (http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheist). I don't think I can call myself a pantheist (http://www.conservapedia.com/Pantheist). The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws."

Dudes name is Albert Einstein. Alot of other well-known scientists also believed in a higher being (Copernicus, Sir Francis Bacon, Isaac Newton, etc) If most of the leading people in your field believes someone started all of this, and every time you try to prove its fake and fail, why not try to help see why it is real?

Everyone has their beliefs, but if for roughly the last couple hundreds years that people have tried to disprove Christianity, and still haven't, you dont see this as a basis that it could actually be real?

Just because people don't know exactly everything about the world, solar system, and universe hardly means that christianity has been proven. No one tries to disprove christianity. I don't follow it but I know for a fact that christianity is real. I don't however think that a creator made everything. Explaining unexplainable events and/or things by saying "God did it." is hardly proof in my book.

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 11:26 AM
No, you have to accept Him. Only way........"I am the way, the Truth, and the Light. No one enters the kingdom except through Me.
Judging by you comments throughout this entire thread, you have not accepted. It is a matter between you and God. We are just here to "plant the seed" as it were.

But of course there are exceptions. Surely, a child that dies in the first few minutes or hours of life is going to Heaven. God would not subject such an innocent soul to damnation would He? How about the isolated tribal elder who has spent his entire life without a knowledge of Jesus? Surely, God would not condemn him?

Star_Cards
04-27-2011, 11:27 AM
It depends on which religion you would want to base it on, seeing as you don't believe in any (Not a insult, just seeing it as your saying your an Athiest)

Others believe in the reincarnation, but since you don't believe you might be something not worthy and be a bug or something? (Not too known in reincarnation)

But for my personal beliefs, if you don't believe Jesus died and rose again, for the most part most of the people will go to Hell. But it says in the Bible God judges accordingly, so who knows exactly the guidelines for non-believers?

by your beliefs, does a murderer that finds god in prison have a better chance to go to heaven than me, who lives my life as a productive member of society, but does not believe?

Star_Cards
04-27-2011, 11:29 AM
Really? Then you need to read alittle further on...

read what further? gators posts or your post that said he was angry and ignorant? You typically just say read this and read that in posts. I need more info to figure out what you want me to see that you think I'm overlooking.

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 11:32 AM
I can see how you got your reasoning, but but don't understand the last sentence. The writer of the books is not a higher power? Confused a little haha.

Of course the writer of the books is a higher power than the child, but is he the highest power?


But the way I see it. Mr. Albert says that there is a higher power that our minds can possibly not wrap around, but since the higher power lets violence and corruption ensue (which also brings compassion into the world) he see him as a God who has no say so on the world.

Where are you seeing this in the quotation you posted? I see nothing of that nature in his words.

Star_Cards
04-27-2011, 11:33 AM
"I'm not an atheist (http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheist). I don't think I can call myself a pantheist (http://www.conservapedia.com/Pantheist). The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws."

1.When he says he is not a Athiest, who don't believe in the existence of a Higher Power, then what is he?

2. Admitting that "someone must have written these books" to me seems like he is saying a higher being wrote the books, but we have no understanding of it.

3. So we can barely understand the laws, which means someone had to write them, right?

I think he's saying that he admits to not knowing for sure. I read it as he knows he's very intelligent but isn't narrow minded enough to think that he knows one way or the other. Saying "someone must have written these books" doesn't make me leap to the thought that he must have though someone not human must have written it. No one has ever said that no one wrote "the laws". The laws exist on paper for all to see so obviously they exist.

Star_Cards
04-27-2011, 11:35 AM
Okay, well you weren't very clear in your answer. Looked like there was a glimmer of hope, a "stay of execution" if you will. So if I do not accept Jesus in my heart, I am definitely going to HE double hockey sticks.

good thing you like hockey. I guess I should start watching. :sign0020:

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 11:39 AM
good thing you like hockey. I guess I should start watching. :sign0020:

No ice where I am going apparently:Cry:

Star_Cards
04-27-2011, 11:44 AM
Wouldnt that mean your belief is to not have beliefs? Conundrum!

BTW, I am not in no way saying that I have all the answers to these, just giving my personal beliefs. I enjoy getting to know others ways of thinking, so by no ways whatever I put on here be a insult to anyone else.

as an atheist I do have beliefs, just not ones of a higher power, and definitely not one that specifically defines how people should live and what they should do or eat or has an active role in the day to day lives of man. That's not to say that I don't have standards or ethics in which I live my life by. The word atheist has such a negative connotation. People are sometimes freaked out by the definition and sometimes seem to think that atheist means you are evil or have no structure in your life to live as a productive member of society.

AUTaxMan
04-27-2011, 11:47 AM
I guess my basis, one that isn't by any means set in stone or complete, is because I simply don't believe there to be a book that was written by or through the words of a higher being. Although a bible with God's author photo on the back would be sweet :). I can't see the reality in that and when people tell me it was written by god or by man through the word of god himself I can't and don't believe that. I don't believe early man started with adam and eve and I don't think the bible or even books were around while early man roamed the earth. I'm no expert on the bible/christianity, but it's rather new in the scheme of the world goes from my understanding. If the world was created by god and it's typically seen as being billions of years old, why is the bible and christianity so new when compared to the years the earth has been around? That leaves me to believe that religion was created by man for whatever reason and not by god and presented to man.

I guess one would or could say that it's because that is the timing when jesus was sent to teach of christianity, but like much of religion nothing can really be explained with any sort of certainty. Maybe the problem is that in the past people of power have used christianity to try to control and heard people that I'm jaded.

The creation story is a tough nut to crack, and there are a lot of different theories about it. Many take it literally. Some say that it is merely a story similar to the creation story of many ancient religions. Some say that you shouldn't look at that Bible as the history of the world but instead as the history of the Jewish bloodline, which began with Adam and Eve. Another common view, one which I share, is that though the earth is old, man is relatively young (6,000-15,000 years) and that Adam and Eve were the first humans. Accordingly, the religion and the Bible are also young.

You do sound jaded, and I understand why many people are turned off by the hypocrisy and unchristian acts of some Christians, but please do not base your view of Christianity on a relatively small number of us who aren't practicing what we say.

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 11:52 AM
The creation story is a tough nut to crack, and there are a lot of different theories about it. Many take it literally. Some say that it is merely a story similar to the creation story of many ancient religions. Some say that you shouldn't look at that Bible as the history of the world but instead as the history of the Jewish bloodline, which began with Adam and Eve. Another common view, one which I share, is that though the earth is old, man is relatively young (6,000-15,000 years) and that Adam and Eve were the first humans. Accordingly, the religion and the Bible are also young.

You do sound jaded, and I understand why many people are turned off by the hypocrisy and unchristian acts of some Christians, but please do not base your view of Christianity on a relatively small number of us who aren't practicing what we say.

Since we are on the topic. How many people did God "create"?

AUTaxMan
04-27-2011, 11:56 AM
Since we are on the topic. How many people did God "create"?

God created Adam from the dust and Eve from Adam.

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 12:10 PM
God created Adam from the dust and Eve from Adam.

I'm confused. Who did Cain or Abel marry? And where did they come from? And who was Lilith?

AUTaxMan
04-27-2011, 12:28 PM
I'm confused. Who did Cain or Abel marry? And where did they come from? And who was Lilith?

Cain married one of his sisters. The Bible does not tell us this directly, but it does tell us that Adam and Eve had multiple sons and daughters. "And the days of Adam after he had fathered Seth were eight hundred years. And he fathered sons and daughters." Gen. 5:4. According to the Jewish historian Josephus, "The number of Adam's children, as says the old tradition, was thirty-three sons and twenty-three daughters."

The Bible doesn't mention that Abel had any children. Remember, Cain killed him.

Lilith is/was a mythological woman/creature.

Star_Cards
04-27-2011, 12:32 PM
The creation story is a tough nut to crack, and there are a lot of different theories about it. Many take it literally. Some say that it is merely a story similar to the creation story of many ancient religions. Some say that you shouldn't look at that Bible as the history of the world but instead as the history of the Jewish bloodline, which began with Adam and Eve. Another common view, one which I share, is that though the earth is old, man is relatively young (6,000-15,000 years) and that Adam and Eve were the first humans. Accordingly, the religion and the Bible are also young.

You do sound jaded, and I understand why many people are turned off by the hypocrisy and unchristian acts of some Christians, but please do not base your view of Christianity on a relatively small number of us who aren't practicing what we say.

agreed, I don't have problems with people being religious. Ironically most of my really great friends have very strong christian views. I'm able to get along with people that have all sorts of different views. My main issues deal with trying to force christians views and beliefs on the country as a whole, which is always being tried and discussed.

Star_Cards
04-27-2011, 12:35 PM
God created Adam from the dust and Eve from Adam.

How do you explain all of the different races if god created two people everyone in the world are descendants of?

AUTaxMan
04-27-2011, 12:47 PM
How do you explain all of the different races if god created two people everyone in the world are descendants of?

Genesis 11:1-9 tells us that in the early days of history, all mankind spoke the same language. However, the people congregated and built a great city which was in direct opposition to God's expressed command to scatter and populate the earth. (Gen. 9:1). Because of their disobedience, God "confounded" their language and scattered them over all the earth. (Gen. 11:7—8). The scattering of these groups all over the earth, which created genetic isolation, is the real cause for the origin of modern races of people.

Here is the passage:

11:1 Now the whole earth had one language and the same words. 2 And as people migrated from the east, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. 3 And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks, and burn them thoroughly.” And they had brick for stone, and bitumen for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be dispersed over the face of the whole earth.” 5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of man had built. 6 And the Lord said, “Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. And nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another's speech.” 8 So the Lord dispersed them from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city. 9 Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the Lord confused ["Babel" sounds like the Hebrew for "confused"] the language of all the earth. And from there the Lord dispersed them over the face of all the earth.

Star_Cards
04-27-2011, 12:58 PM
Genesis 11:1-9 tells us that in the early days of history, all mankind spoke the same language. However, the people congregated and built a great city which was in direct opposition to God's expressed command to scatter and populate the earth. (Gen. 9:1). Because of their disobedience, God "confounded" their language and scattered them over all the earth. (Gen. 11:7—8). The scattering of these groups all over the earth, which created genetic isolation, is the real cause for the origin of modern races of people.

Here is the passage:

11:1 Now the whole earth had one language and the same words. 2 And as people migrated from the east, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. 3 And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks, and burn them thoroughly.” And they had brick for stone, and bitumen for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be dispersed over the face of the whole earth.” 5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of man had built. 6 And the Lord said, “Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. And nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another's speech.” 8 So the Lord dispersed them from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city. 9 Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the Lord confused ["Babel" sounds like the Hebrew for "confused"] the language of all the earth. And from there the Lord dispersed them over the face of all the earth.

hmm... interesting. I've never heard that before. Thanks for posting.

I guess this makes me wonder why if god would take action towards these people that went against his command, why wouldn't things like this happen now to people that are not obeying his commands. I know people will deem things these days as miracles, but nothing similar to moving people and changing their races isn't close to the things people have called miracles or acts of god these days. Usually people call natural disasters acts of god, but to me they are all explained by science.

oh, and I hope you don't take my questions as trying to be sarcastic or a smart alec.

sanfran22
04-27-2011, 01:23 PM
But of course there are exceptions. Surely, a child that dies in the first few minutes or hours of life is going to Heaven. God would not subject such an innocent soul to damnation would He? How about the isolated tribal elder who has spent his entire life without a knowledge of Jesus? Surely, God would not condemn him?
Yes, If you have not had a chance to hear the word, you will not be condemned...But I bet if you ask that tribal elder, he has heard. the children would be a different topic.

sanfran22
04-27-2011, 01:24 PM
I am not saying I am an Atheist. My position is this. I do not believe in religion. I am pretty sure that is much different from the definition of an Athiest. But based on your beliefs, I still have a chance of entering the pearly gates :)
Do you believe in God? Or just don't care?

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 01:44 PM
Genesis 11:1-9 tells us that in the early days of history, all mankind spoke the same language. However, the people congregated and built a great city which was in direct opposition to God's expressed command to scatter and populate the earth. (Gen. 9:1). Because of their disobedience, God "confounded" their language and scattered them over all the earth. (Gen. 11:7—8). The scattering of these groups all over the earth, which created genetic isolation, is the real cause for the origin of modern races of people.

Here is the passage:

11:1 Now the whole earth had one language and the same words. 2 And as people migrated from the east, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. 3 And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks, and burn them thoroughly.” And they had brick for stone, and bitumen for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be dispersed over the face of the whole earth.” 5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of man had built. 6 And the Lord said, “Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. And nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another's speech.” 8 So the Lord dispersed them from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city. 9 Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the Lord confused ["Babel" sounds like the Hebrew for "confused"] the language of all the earth. And from there the Lord dispersed them over the face of all the earth.

This is what bothers me. It is offered as "the real reason" without any evidence to support it. Wouldn't an intelligent person consider that all the research done and theories developed over the past hundred years offer a more reasonable, logical explanation for our diversity?

This is the case for so many outlandish claims in the Bible. The most obvious explanation for all of it is that it is NOT TRUE. Here's a list:

World created in 6 days!
World is only 6,000 years old!
Woman created from Man! (why not create her from scratch?)
The human race was propogated by incestual siblings!
Humans lived to be hundreds of years old!
Noah's Ark!
Jesus born through Immaculate Conception!
Jesus resurrected!

It goes on and on. There is a simple explanation! None of it is true!

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck ... IT'S a DUCK!!!!

But no, there are all these convoluted explanations accompanied by supposition only, that defy everything man has learned over the centuries.

And the most frustrating part is that believers can't even get their explainations and reasoning consistent. They are all over the board. Some believe this, some believe that. There's no rhyme or reason to it.

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 01:46 PM
Do you believe in God? Or just don't care?

I do not believe in your God.

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 01:50 PM
Yes, If you have not had a chance to hear the word, you will not be condemned...But I bet if you ask that tribal elder, he has heard. the children would be a different topic.

He may have heard of The Beatles, but don't be so sure about Jesus. Did that sound ridiculous? So did your comment.

I bet if I ask 100 believers this question. I would get a myriad of answers and many would be 100% certain THEY were right.

sanfran22
04-27-2011, 02:16 PM
I do not believe in your God.
Not my god...any God?

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 02:26 PM
Not my god...any God?

I simply do not know of any specific God/Creator's existence. What I do know, is that I do not believe there is any human being on this planet that DOES KNOW the answer.

AUTaxMan
04-27-2011, 02:48 PM
This is what bothers me. It is offered as "the real reason" without any evidence to support it. Wouldn't an intelligent person consider that all the research done and theories developed over the past hundred years offer a more reasonable, logical explanation for our diversity

I would love to hear these reasonable, logical explanations. I want to know upon which facts they are based and upon which assumptions they are based.

I don't like being called an idiot, which is what you are essentially doing. You begin with the assumption that there is no God. I assume that there is. There is ample evidence to support both positions. I am more convinced by the evidence supporting my position, and you are by yours. Your assumption is no more logical than mine.

Because my assumption is a logical one, it is also logical for me to rely on what the Bible says as historical truth until I am provided evidence disproving my assumption or my conclusions based on my assumption.

You have the audacity to act like we are the close-minded ones. We will at least entertain scientific theories and challenge their flaws. You won't even consider the possibility that God exists unless you see 100% definitive proof of His existence, yet you will make arguments and draw conclusions based on layers and layers of unproven assumptions. It takes LESS faith for me to believe what I believe than it would for me NOT to believe it and totally rely on science.

I am willing to entertain any argument and review any evidence you have to disprove my assumption that God exists, but I am not duty bound to be convinced by that evidence merely because others tell me I should be.

Star_Cards
04-27-2011, 02:59 PM
I would love to hear these reasonable, logical explanations. I want to know upon which facts they are based and upon which assumptions they are based.

I don't like being called an idiot, which is what you are essentially doing. You begin with the assumption that there is no God. I assume that there is. There is ample evidence to support both positions. I am more convinced by the evidence supporting my position, and you are by yours. Your assumption is no more logical than mine.

Because my assumption is a logical one, it is also logical for me to rely on what the Bible says as historical truth until I am provided evidence disproving my assumption or my conclusions based on my assumption.

You have the audacity to act like we are the close-minded ones. We will at least entertain scientific theories and challenge their flaws. You won't even consider the possibility that God exists unless you see 100% definitive proof of His existence, yet you will make arguments and draw conclusions based on layers and layers of unproven assumptions. It takes LESS faith for me to believe what I believe than it would for me NOT to believe it and totally rely on science.

I am willing to entertain any argument and review any evidence you have to disprove my assumption that God exists, but I am not duty bound to be convinced by that evidence merely because others tell me I should be.

What evidence is there that there is a god? I get that one can't 100% prove that there isn't a god, but I'm not aware of any proof that he exists. Any "proof" that I have heard is not proof at all but rather people just saying it is so because that's what they have been told at church by some other person or what they read in the bible.

AUTaxMan
04-27-2011, 03:11 PM
What evidence is there that there is a god? I get that one can't 100% prove that there isn't a god, but I'm not aware of any proof that he exists. Any "proof" that I have heard is not proof at all but rather people just saying it is so because that's what they have been told at church by some other person or what they read in the bible.

I'm saying it cannot be proven one way or the other, so neither assumption is more logical than the other.

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 03:21 PM
I would love to hear these reasonable, logical explanations. I want to know upon which facts they are based and upon which assumptions they are based.

How LOGICAL is what you posted about the matter? There are countless studies on racial diversion. Just google it.



I don't like being called an idiot, which is what you are essentially doing. You begin with the assumption that there is no God. I assume that there is. There is ample evidence to support both positions. I am more convinced by the evidence supporting my position, and you are by yours. Your assumption is no more logical than mine.

I contend that there is NO EVIDENCE to support either position. If you have EVIDENCE, what is it?



Because my assumption is a logical one, it is also logical for me to rely on what the Bible says as historical truth until I am provided evidence disproving my assumption or my conclusions based on my assumption.

See my comment above. Nothing logical about your assumption.



You have the audacity to act like we are the close-minded ones. We will at least entertain scientific theories and challenge their flaws. You won't even consider the possibility that God exists unless you see 100% definitive proof of His existence, yet you will make arguments and draw conclusions based on layers and layers of unproven assumptions. It takes LESS faith for me to believe what I believe than it would for me NOT to believe it and totally rely on science.

Yes, it is clear that you will do that. The close-mindedness comes from your inability to entertain and challenge the stories in the Bible. How can you deny that? You have already stated it is God's words so it MUST be the TRUTH.

After all my comments in this thread I would have thought you had a better understanding of my position. Please read my last response to sanfran22. My position cannot be much clearer than that.



I am willing to entertain any argument and review any evidence you have to disprove my assumption that God exists, but I am not duty bound to be convinced by that evidence merely because others tell me I should be.

Again, I will repeat! I have NO POSITION on whether your God exists or my God exists. My opposition is to RELIGION as a whole.

duane1969
04-27-2011, 03:21 PM
Sometimes Christians argue that if the Bible is archaeologically accurate, it must be theologically accurate. In other words, "The Bible says this city and this person existed, and we know from history and archaeology that that kingdom and that person actually did exist, so then it must also be right when it says there is a god and Jesus is his son." This is the very definition of a non-sequitur. It's like if I told you I went to McDonalds for lunch and then I was kidnapped by aliens, and I show you my McDonalds receipt, and claim that proves I was kidnapped by aliens.

That is not what I was saying. Someone said that the Bible is entirely or completely fake and that is fundamentally incorrect. Real people, places and occurences make it impossible to call the Bible a complete work of fiction.

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 03:24 PM
That is not what I was saying. Someone said that the Bible is entirely or completely fake and that is fundamentally incorrect. Real people, places and occurences make it impossible to call the Bible a complete work of fiction.

For the record, I do not think anyone that called the Bible fiction contends that it is all fiction.

AUTaxMan
04-27-2011, 03:31 PM
If there is no evidence to support either assumption, aren't they then equally valid or equally invalid?

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 03:33 PM
If there is no evidence to support either assumption, aren't they then equally valid or equally invalid?

They are both equally INVALID. Assumptions should not be made without any evidence to support them.

In my 44 years on this planet I haven't assumed either position. You have!

duane1969
04-27-2011, 03:36 PM
They are both equally INVALID. Assumptions should not be made without any evidence to support them.



So when you tell me that you can not fly I should not assume anything and require you to prove it to me???

Sorry, I couldn't resist :)

AUTaxMan
04-27-2011, 03:37 PM
They are both equally INVALID. Assumptions should not be made without any evidence to support them.

In my 44 years on this planet I haven't assumed either position. You have!

Are not historical accounts of actual events evidence? Aren't there 150 years of scientific study evidencing that man evolved and was not created? Is not carbon/radioactive dating evidence of the age of the earth and its living things?

What does "evidence" mean to you?

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 03:43 PM
So when you tell me that you can not fly I should not assume anything and require you to prove it to me???

Sorry, I couldn't resist :)

Nevermind. misread it. lol

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 03:45 PM
Are not historical accounts of actual events evidence? Aren't there 150 years of scientific study evidencing that man evolved and was not created? Is not carbon/radioactive dating evidence of the age of the earth and its living things?

What does "evidence" mean to you?

What does any of those things have to do with the existence of a God or Creator?

AUTaxMan
04-27-2011, 03:46 PM
What does any of those things have to do with the existence of a God or Creator?

Well, answer my last question - what would evidence of God involve?

mrveggieman
04-27-2011, 04:18 PM
Here's a question that I want to put out there. Anyone with an opinion feel free to chime in. Someone can believe the the Bible is the only true word of God. But how can you prove that the Quron, The Book of the Dead, Ancient Texts, and other sacred books are not also the true word of God. Please don't answer by saying "because the Bible says so" because all other holy books claim that their book is the only true book of God. BTW I am not here to prove or disprove a particular point of view I am only interested in seeing what people have to say. Thanks for your time.

AUTaxMan
04-27-2011, 04:40 PM
Here's a question that I want to put out there. Anyone with an opinion feel free to chime in. Someone can believe the the Bible is the only true word of God. But how can you prove that the Quron, The Book of the Dead, Ancient Texts, and other sacred books are not also the true word of God. Please don't answer by saying "because the Bible says so" because all other holy books claim that their book is the only true book of God. BTW I am not here to prove or disprove a particular point of view I am only interested in seeing what people have to say. Thanks for your time.

Like much of this discussion, it cannot be proven in the scientific or mathematical sense of the word. Each religion's answer to this question will presumably be guided by what that religion's writings say. Christians will say that only the Bible is the written word of God, and anything that is not part of the canon was rejected by God, because God guided the canonizing process of the Bible. Jude 1:3 says that the faith (that is, the Christian doctrine) had been "once for all delivered" to the saints (the members of the church). In other words, once the canon was closed, everything that came thereafter (or was written before and didn't make it in) is not true scripture.

That is the general Christian answer. I hope it satisfies you, but I can understand if it does not.

karnivore
04-27-2011, 04:43 PM
by your beliefs, does a murderer that finds god in prison have a better chance to go to heaven than me, who lives my life as a productive member of society, but does not believe?

My belief is that God shows judgement to each person, and in the Bible it talks about judging people accordingly, so I personally do not believe that people the likes of Ghandi and all are going to Hell. I believe that God will sort through it all and make the perfect judgement.


But of course there are exceptions. Surely, a child that dies in the first few minutes or hours of life is going to Heaven. God would not subject such an innocent soul to damnation would He? How about the isolated tribal elder who has spent his entire life without a knowledge of Jesus? Surely, God would not condemn him?

The first part of this, no he would not send a child like that to hell.

The tribal elder is a different story, because if we as Christians are to do what we are suppose to do and spread the Gospel, there wouldn't be any isolated people who don't know.


Of course the writer of the books is a higher power than the child, but is he the highest power?



Where are you seeing this in the quotation you posted? I see nothing of that nature in his words.

I thought our debate was on if Einstein thought there was a higher power? Theres a higher power then the Child (us), so he must believe in it right?


as an atheist I do have beliefs, just not ones of a higher power, and definitely not one that specifically defines how people should live and what they should do or eat or has an active role in the day to day lives of man. That's not to say that I don't have standards or ethics in which I live my life by. The word atheist has such a negative connotation. People are sometimes freaked out by the definition and sometimes seem to think that atheist means you are evil or have no structure in your life to live as a productive member of society.

Athiest to me is defined as not believing in a higher being, which you have every right to do. Which is why I argued that Einstein DOES believe in one, hence calling himself "Not a athiest"

I don't believe athiest is a bad word. One of my closest friends is a athiest, but he is a good person.



agreed, I don't have problems with people being religious. Ironically most of my really great friends have very strong christian views. I'm able to get along with people that have all sorts of different views. My main issues deal with trying to force christians views and beliefs on the country as a whole, which is always being tried and discussed.

And the worst part is the people that try to "force" it is the same people that have scandals and skeletons in the closet, or just flat out doesnt act like a Christian. It sucks because it turns alot of people away :/


hmm... interesting. I've never heard that before. Thanks for posting.

I guess this makes me wonder why if god would take action towards these people that went against his command, why wouldn't things like this happen now to people that are not obeying his commands. I know people will deem things these days as miracles, but nothing similar to moving people and changing their races isn't close to the things people have called miracles or acts of god these days. Usually people call natural disasters acts of god, but to me they are all explained by science.

oh, and I hope you don't take my questions as trying to be sarcastic or a smart alec.

Because in the Old Testament was when God had to show his judgement on the Sins of people. Once Jesus died for us, was when we didn't have to have action against us for our Sins.



This is what bothers me. It is offered as "the real reason" without any evidence to support it. Wouldn't an intelligent person consider that all the research done and theories developed over the past hundred years offer a more reasonable, logical explanation for our diversity?

This is the case for so many outlandish claims in the Bible. The most obvious explanation for all of it is that it is NOT TRUE. Here's a list:

World created in 6 days!
World is only 6,000 years old!
Woman created from Man! (why not create her from scratch?)
The human race was propogated by incestual siblings!
Humans lived to be hundreds of years old!
Noah's Ark!
Jesus born through Immaculate Conception!
Jesus resurrected!

It goes on and on. There is a simple explanation! None of it is true!

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck ... IT'S a DUCK!!!!

But no, there are all these convoluted explanations accompanied by supposition only, that defy everything man has learned over the centuries.

And the most frustrating part is that believers can't even get their explainations and reasoning consistent. They are all over the board. Some believe this, some believe that. There's no rhyme or reason to it.

Because different denominations believe different things. But as a whole for a Christian, you should believe on all of those things. But see what you don't talk about is the fact that there are things you just simply cannot explain, but some of those things you mentioned can be explained.

Woman was created for Man, so why create her from scratch when She was made just for him? Take a piece of the man, shows he is not whole by himself.

How else was humans created then? Wouldn't it have started by two people no matter what?

These next two I am going on memory, but if I need to I will look them up. But isn't it proven that the Life Expectancy keeps decling every 50ish years? So, then at the beginning people would have lived alot longer? And theres proof on mountain tops to suggest that the whole world was underwater at one point, so the Ark is highly plausible.

If Jesus didn't ressurect, why did people who was still alive when the New Testament came out debunk it? Some of the New Testament came out before70-76A.D., so why did Christianity not be disproved right from the get-go?


Here's a question that I want to put out there. Anyone with an opinion feel free to chime in. Someone can believe the the Bible is the only true word of God. But how can you prove that the Quron, The Book of the Dead, Ancient Texts, and other sacred books are not also the true word of God. Please don't answer by saying "because the Bible says so" because all other holy books claim that their book is the only true book of God. BTW I am not here to prove or disprove a particular point of view I am only interested in seeing what people have to say. Thanks for your time.

The Quran has contradictions that cant be explained, unlike the Bibles "contradictions". The Quran says that Jesus was a Prophet, but Jesus says in the Bible (written by his Apostles) about his divinity. So wouldn't that mean Jesus is lieing, and not a prophet?

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 04:59 PM
Well, answer my last question - what would evidence of God involve?

Thought about this on the drive home. She would have to reveal herself to the world. Then she would have to CREATE a new Mother Earth and place it next to us for all to see.

Shouldn't be too hard. Think of all the new recruits!

karnivore
04-27-2011, 05:06 PM
Thought about this on the drive home. She would have to reveal herself to the world. Then she would have to CREATE a new Mother Earth and place it next to us for all to see.

Shouldn't be too hard. Think of all the new recruits!


But if God shows himself to everyone that takes away free will.

gatorboymike
04-27-2011, 05:18 PM
Burden of proof shifting is one of the most common fallacies employed by religionists. "Can you prove there's no god? No? Well then I guess you're just an idiot and you need to shut up and agree with me, don't you?" In fact, half the time, that's the first thing out of their mouths. And it seems to me that "you can't prove me wrong" is the last, desperate attempt at defending one's position by an intellectually dishonest scoundrel who has nothing to support their position and they darn well know it.

To use a common example to illustrate how inane this is, take Bigfoot. Do you believe the claim that Bigfoot exists until it's proven false, or do you disbelieve it until it's proven true? If you ran into someone who believed in Bigfoot, and when you asked him how he knew there was a Bigfoot, and he said "Can you prove there's no Bigfoot?" would that in any way convince you that there was a Bigfoot? Or would you think to yourself that this guy isn't being very fair or mature?

It's impossible to prove something doesn't exist. In order to do that, you would have to know the entire contents of the entire universe, and know that the thing in question was not among them. And since no one possesses such knowledge, no one can do any such thing. You can prove something does exist, or you can fail to prove something does exist, but you can't prove something doesn't exist. Unless you're talking about something confined to a space that is searchable in its entirity. Staying with cryptozoology, the Loch Ness Monster, for example. People say there's an aquatic dinosaur living in this lake? Well, we've looked through the entire lake and never found any aquatic dinosaur. Of course, Loch Ness Monster apologists might just say Nessie lives outside of space and time...

It's not atheists' job to prove there is no god. It's theists' job to prove there is one. An assertion with no evidence to back it up is worthy of dismissal until such time as there is sufficiently convincing evidence to back it up. This will probably lead you to dismiss ideas which, despite being poorly supported, may happen to be true. But the point is that you have no reason to accept that they are true at the time. Once support is built up for them, then it's time to revise your position. That's how the scientific method works. The problem is that as the Abrahamic god is traditionally described, it is an unfalsifiable hypothesis. In other words, an idea specifically formulated so that nobody will ever be able to prove it wrong...so that people's inability to prove it wrong will somehow be construed as evidence of its truth by adherents. Of course, you know what else is an unfalsifiable hypothesis? The Matrix. "Hey, what if we're all stuck inside a computer program wired into our brains, which is so sophisticated that it mimics real life 100% and is impossible to identify as a computer program?" Can you PROVE we're NOT in the Matrix? No? Well then I guess we must be, mustn't we? Are you convinced? Surely not. So why are you convinced by "Hey, what if there's a supernatural being who created the universe and cares about the day-to-day goings-on in our lives, who uses his powers to keep himself and his actions completely undetectable?"

Theists are the ones who say "I'm 100%, absolutely certain that there is a god, and I know what his nature is, and I know what he wants, what he doesn't want, what he loves, what he hates, how he works, when he works, and what he's going to do in the future. I have complete, unwavering, ironclad, inassailable and permanent faith in this. There's absolutely nothing anyone can ever do or say, and absolutely nothing that can ever happen, to make me change my mind even the tineist bit about anything, in any part, in any way, for any reason, under any circumstances, at any time, ever, period, end of story." And because they recognize how intellectually dishonest that assertion is, they want to try to make atheists out to be exactly the same as they are, or even worse, claiming we say the exact same thing about there not being a god. Well, that's a lie, and a strawman argument. Atheists say, "We don't believe you." And to try to claim that "We don't believe you" is equivalent to "I have 100% faith that there is no god and I'll never change my mind or admit I'm wrong" is an absolute LIE. It's a diversionary ploy on the part of those who have nothing to support their position and they know it. And that's usually the second thing out of their mouths, right on the heels of "You can't prove there's no god."

P.S. - For those who say they do have evidence that there's a god, they can go ahead and state their claims. But I've heard a lot of such so-called evidences and all the ones I've ever heard, I've found to be lacking.

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 05:37 PM
I thought our debate was on if Einstein thought there was a higher power? Theres a higher power then the Child (us), so he must believe in it right?

Not so much whether he thought there was a higher power. It is only logical to make that assumption. My contention is he never says he thinks that higher power manifests itself as your God.



Because different denominations believe different things. But as a whole for a Christian, you should believe on all of those things. But see what you don't talk about is the fact that there are things you just simply cannot explain, but some of those things you mentioned can be explained.

I am talking about believers within the same denominations having differing explanations of various Bible passages.




Woman was created for Man, so why create her from scratch when She was made just for him? Take a piece of the man, shows he is not whole by himself.

Sounds like a reasonable assumption.



How else was humans created then? Wouldn't it have started by two people no matter what?

Not necessarily, but way above my pay grade. I just don't believe the justification for the obvious incestual relationships that God sanctioned. Would it not have been better to "create" more people in His image to avoid this?



These next two I am going on memory, but if I need to I will look them up. But isn't it proven that the Life Expectancy keeps decling every 50ish years? So, then at the beginning people would have lived alot longer? And theres proof on mountain tops to suggest that the whole world was underwater at one point, so the Ark is highly plausible.

No, life expectancy has been increasing. I believe the "party line" is that our current lifespans started after the Flood. I do not take issue with the occurrence of a flood. My issue is with the improbablity of a craft large enough to achieve what is claimed. I have heard the explanations on this as well, and they just aren't plausible.




If Jesus didn't ressurect, why did people who was still alive when the New Testament came out debunk it? Some of the New Testament came out before70-76A.D., so why did Christianity not be disproved right from the get-go?

As with all "history". I will explain it with an old adage, the author of which I do not know. "History is written by the victors" Who knows what opposition there was to it? Christianity obviously prevailed enough to carve out a following.

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 05:38 PM
But if God shows himself to everyone that takes away free will.

Can you explain that? I don't follow the correlation between the two.

AUTaxMan
04-27-2011, 05:41 PM
Burden of proof shifting is one of the most common fallacies employed by religionists. "Can you prove there's no god? No? Well then I guess you're just an idiot and you need to shut up and agree with me, don't you?" In fact, half the time, that's the first thing out of their mouths. And it seems to me that "you can't prove me wrong" is the last, desperate attempt at defending one's position by an intellectually dishonest scoundrel who has nothing to support their position and they darn well know it.

You are correct, but in this thread, we've already acknowledged that you cannot prove a negative. The question posed was if God's existence must be "proven" for you to accept it, what would constitute "evidence" to that end?

AUTaxMan
04-27-2011, 05:52 PM
Not so much whether he thought there was a higher power. It is only logical to make that assumption. My contention is he never says he thinks that higher power manifests itself as your God.

You are correct. I think that Einstein believed in a higher power, but not a personal God.



I am talking about believers within the same denominations having differing explanations of various Bible passages.

Chalk that up to the uneducated.


Not necessarily, but way above my pay grade. I just don't believe the justification for the obvious incestual relationships that God sanctioned. Would it not have been better to "create" more people in His image to avoid this?

I am no biblical scholar, but I am certain that there is an important answer to this question. I will have to do a little more research on it.


As with all "history". I will explain it with an old adage, the author of which I do not know. "History is written by the victors" Who knows what opposition there was to it? Christianity obviously prevailed enough to carve out a following.

The persecution of Christians in the early church is well-documented. I would certainly not call them victors in the sense of that expression.

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 06:04 PM
Chalk that up to the uneducated.

For the most part, yes. But there appear to be many educated believers with differing explanations. To put it bluntly, most of the uneducated believers don't give a damn about the questions I ponder.




I am no biblical scholar, but I am certain that there is an important answer to this question. I will have to do a little more research on it.

I would be interested in hearing the reasoning behind this. It may make perfect sense in it's own context.




The persecution of Christians in the early church is well-documented. I would certainly not call them victors in the sense of that expression.

I was thinking more about the "information" battle between Christianity and the Pagan? customs in claiming victors.

sanfran22
04-27-2011, 07:05 PM
Thought about this on the drive home. She would have to reveal herself to the world. Then she would have to CREATE a new Mother Earth and place it next to us for all to see.

Shouldn't be too hard. Think of all the new recruits!
Something along this line will happen in the no so distant future...HE will reveal Himself and will set off a whole lot off not so fun things. By that point though, it will be too late for those left behind.....

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 08:03 PM
Something along this line will happen in the no so distant future...HE will reveal Himself and will set off a whole lot off not so fun things. By that point though, it will be too late for those left behind.....

I think this group will include me. Where are the rest of you going? Roadtrip?

gatorboymike
04-27-2011, 09:02 PM
No, they're going to live up in the clouds with their wings and halos and white robes and harps and...oh, excuse me, "outside of space and time."

karnivore
04-27-2011, 09:23 PM
Can you explain that? I don't follow the correlation between the two.


The reason we are human is because we get to choose exactly what to do when to do it. If we know for a fact, 100% there is a God people will go against their free will to follow him, and in fact take out free will.


Not so much whether he thought there was a higher power. It is only logical to make that assumption. My contention is he never says he thinks that higher power manifests itself as your God.



I am talking about believers within the same denominations having differing explanations of various Bible passages.




Sounds like a reasonable assumption.



Not necessarily, but way above my pay grade. I just don't believe the justification for the obvious incestual relationships that God sanctioned. Would it not have been better to "create" more people in His image to avoid this?



No, life expectancy has been increasing. I believe the "party line" is that our current lifespans started after the Flood. I do not take issue with the occurrence of a flood. My issue is with the improbablity of a craft large enough to achieve what is claimed. I have heard the explanations on this as well, and they just aren't plausible.




As with all "history". I will explain it with an old adage, the author of which I do not know. "History is written by the victors" Who knows what opposition there was to it? Christianity obviously prevailed enough to carve out a following.

1. I never said Einstein followed my God. I just said he believed in a Higher Power.

2. Uneducated believers. Just because you call yourself a Christian and say the nice things doesn't mean you know what your talking about. Old foot in the mouth syndrome. (I do that sometimes too)

3. Thank ya :)

4. Well I really don't know Gods way of thinking. So I won't throw out a reason when I can't explain it.

5. He gave the exact demensions for the craft, and I don't know if anyone ever tried it, but it shouldn't have been too hard to recreate. Keep in mind alot of animals that exist now wasn't there back then, for example there wasn't poodles and cocker spaniel dogs, there was just one kind. So if the animals went down to the origin animals, it doesn't seem as outlandish.

6. But how was the Christians "victors" when they were hunted out and killed for their beliefs? The early christians took the ways of the Bible very strictly, so its not like they went out and murdered people. It wasn't until Constantine that being a Christian was considered a good thing. Also well-known historians of the time, Christian and Non-Christians alike, talked about Jesus and what was happening.

Thanks for the debate man, its fun to know others opinions!


Burden of proof shifting is one of the most common fallacies employed by religionists. "Can you prove there's no god? No? Well then I guess you're just an idiot and you need to shut up and agree with me, don't you?" In fact, half the time, that's the first thing out of their mouths. And it seems to me that "you can't prove me wrong" is the last, desperate attempt at defending one's position by an intellectually dishonest scoundrel who has nothing to support their position and they darn well know it.

To use a common example to illustrate how inane this is, take Bigfoot. Do you believe the claim that Bigfoot exists until it's proven false, or do you disbelieve it until it's proven true? If you ran into someone who believed in Bigfoot, and when you asked him how he knew there was a Bigfoot, and he said "Can you prove there's no Bigfoot?" would that in any way convince you that there was a Bigfoot? Or would you think to yourself that this guy isn't being very fair or mature?

It's impossible to prove something doesn't exist. In order to do that, you would have to know the entire contents of the entire universe, and know that the thing in question was not among them. And since no one possesses such knowledge, no one can do any such thing. You can prove something does exist, or you can fail to prove something does exist, but you can't prove something doesn't exist. Unless you're talking about something confined to a space that is searchable in its entirity. Staying with cryptozoology, the Loch Ness Monster, for example. People say there's an aquatic dinosaur living in this lake? Well, we've looked through the entire lake and never found any aquatic dinosaur. Of course, Loch Ness Monster apologists might just say Nessie lives outside of space and time...

It's not atheists' job to prove there is no god. It's theists' job to prove there is one. An assertion with no evidence to back it up is worthy of dismissal until such time as there is sufficiently convincing evidence to back it up. This will probably lead you to dismiss ideas which, despite being poorly supported, may happen to be true. But the point is that you have no reason to accept that they are true at the time. Once support is built up for them, then it's time to revise your position. That's how the scientific method works. The problem is that as the Abrahamic god is traditionally described, it is an unfalsifiable hypothesis. In other words, an idea specifically formulated so that nobody will ever be able to prove it wrong...so that people's inability to prove it wrong will somehow be construed as evidence of its truth by adherents. Of course, you know what else is an unfalsifiable hypothesis? The Matrix. "Hey, what if we're all stuck inside a computer program wired into our brains, which is so sophisticated that it mimics real life 100% and is impossible to identify as a computer program?" Can you PROVE we're NOT in the Matrix? No? Well then I guess we must be, mustn't we? Are you convinced? Surely not. So why are you convinced by "Hey, what if there's a supernatural being who created the universe and cares about the day-to-day goings-on in our lives, who uses his powers to keep himself and his actions completely undetectable?"

Theists are the ones who say "I'm 100%, absolutely certain that there is a god, and I know what his nature is, and I know what he wants, what he doesn't want, what he loves, what he hates, how he works, when he works, and what he's going to do in the future. I have complete, unwavering, ironclad, inassailable and permanent faith in this. There's absolutely nothing anyone can ever do or say, and absolutely nothing that can ever happen, to make me change my mind even the tineist bit about anything, in any part, in any way, for any reason, under any circumstances, at any time, ever, period, end of story." And because they recognize how intellectually dishonest that assertion is, they want to try to make atheists out to be exactly the same as they are, or even worse, claiming we say the exact same thing about there not being a god. Well, that's a lie, and a strawman argument. Atheists say, "We don't believe you." And to try to claim that "We don't believe you" is equivalent to "I have 100% faith that there is no god and I'll never change my mind or admit I'm wrong" is an absolute LIE. It's a diversionary ploy on the part of those who have nothing to support their position and they know it. And that's usually the second thing out of their mouths, right on the heels of "You can't prove there's no god."

P.S. - For those who say they do have evidence that there's a god, they can go ahead and state their claims. But I've heard a lot of such so-called evidences and all the ones I've ever heard, I've found to be lacking.

I can boil down your whole thing to one sentence. "I came across "Christians" and they didn't know much about their religion, so they got mad and started gettting defensive."

But why do we need to prove the existance of our God when their has never been something about the Bible debunked? If you wanna go against the "Head" of our religion (i.e. That Jesus/God doesn't exist), shouldn't you work your way up to that and try to disprove the smaller things?

AUTaxMan
04-27-2011, 09:38 PM
I think this group will include me. Where are the rest of you going? Roadtrip?

You may not agree with it, but don't be disrespectful.

tutall
04-27-2011, 09:48 PM
Not all science is faith. If I let go of a ball as I sit at my computer it will drop to the ground. I don't trust that it will drop. I know that it will drop 100% of the time. It's not blind faith in a book that one thinks men wrote through a link to a creator.

Again, everyone is left to believe what they would like. My major issue with religion is that people want to use it to govern everyone regardless of belief.

You keep saying that but I would like to know what you mean by it... I asked earlier but I am sure that post is buried by now....

mrveggieman
04-27-2011, 10:11 PM
Here's another question for you that anyone can chime in on. If you are muslim, jewish, or another religion I really want to hear what you think. Christians can answer too along with anyone else. Here's the situation. There is a guy who has raped, tourted and killed people. One day he wakes up and has a change of heart. He wants salvation. He dosen't really know anything about any particular religion but he does believe in a higher power and wants to find God. Someone tells him that he can find salvation at the top of the hill. On the way up there one of his victim's father sees him and shoots and kills him. My question is since the killer had every intention on getting salvation but died before he had the chance to recieve salvation, does he get into heaven?

karnivore
04-27-2011, 10:13 PM
Here's another question for you that anyone can chime in on. If you are muslim, jewish, or another religion I really want to hear what you think. Christians can answer too along with anyone else. Here's the situation. There is a guy who has raped, tourted and killed people. One day he wakes up and has a change of heart. He wants salvation. He dosen't really know anything about any particular religion but he does believe in a higher power and wants to find God. Someone tells him that he can find salvation at the top of the hill. On the way up there one of his victim's father sees him and shoots and kills him. My question is since the killer had ever intention on getting salvation but died before he had the chance to recieve salvation, does he get into heaven?

Most Christians believe that since he did not believe in his heart that Jesus died for him (yet), then no he does not make it to Heaven.

I personally cannot condemn anyone, so for me to say that person is, its not of my nature to say it :/

habsheaven
04-27-2011, 10:34 PM
You may not agree with it, but don't be disrespectful.

How could I agree or not agree? I have no idea what he meant by the comment. A little humour in a discussion like this doesn't need to be taken as disrespect.

gatorboymike
04-28-2011, 12:01 AM
I can boil down your whole thing to one sentence. "I came across "Christians" and they didn't know much about their religion, so they got mad and started gettting defensive."

What a ludicrous oversimplification. That might have been their problem, but you apparently ignored everything I had to say on the subject. Nice use of air-quotes there too; nice No True Scotsman fallacy. I explained my views on the subject not just because of some mad, defensive reactions I got from random Christians off the street, but also because that's what supposedly reputable and enlightened Christian organizations use in their official literature and propaganda. In other words, the things I quoted them as saying is not just the defensive sputterings of people caught off guard, it's official doctrine that is being reproduced and propagated by well-financed individuals with a vast audience and a shady agenda. And for you to attempt to dismiss that in such a way indicates that you're either unaware of what your co-religionists are doing, or you do know and you're playing coverup for them.


But why do we need to prove the existance of our God when their has never been something about the Bible debunked? If you wanna go against the "Head" of our religion (i.e. That Jesus/God doesn't exist), shouldn't you work your way up to that and try to disprove the smaller things?

Hah, I needed a good laugh. Never been anything about the Bible debunked? Hilarious. It's not my fault if you can't admit your Bible isn't 100% accurate and literal. And if you can't admit that, there's really nothing else to say.

And I've already explained why I don't believe in your god. You obviously didn't read my explanation. So I'm not going to bother taking the time to elaborate if you're not going to bother to take the time to listen.

AUTaxMan
04-28-2011, 12:19 AM
I explained my views on the subject not just because of some mad, defensive reactions I got from random Christians off the street, but also because that's what supposedly reputable and enlightened Christian organizations use in their official literature and propaganda. In other words, the things I quoted them as saying is not just the defensive sputterings of people caught off guard, it's official doctrine that is being reproduced and propagated by well-financed individuals with a vast audience and a shady agenda.

I tried to find what you were talking about here, but I must have missed it.


It's not my fault if you can't admit your Bible isn't 100% accurate and literal. And if you can't admit that, there's really nothing else to say.

What inaccuracies are you talking about? The 7-day thing, or was it something else?

gatorboymike
04-28-2011, 12:26 AM
I tried to find what you were talking about here, but I must have missed it.

The things about "Can you prove there's no god" and "atheists have faith there's no god."


What inaccuracies are you talking about? The 7-day thing, or was it something else?

That, and pretty much all of Genesis, as well as assorted things throughout the document. I'm pretty sure a complete index of all the "scientific" claims the Bible makes which have been debunked wouldn't be hard to find.

AUTaxMan
04-28-2011, 12:38 AM
The things about "Can you prove there's no god" and "atheists have faith there's no god."

That, and pretty much all of Genesis, as well as assorted things throughout the document. I'm pretty sure a complete index of all the "scientific" claims the Bible makes which have been debunked wouldn't be hard to find.


I was more interested in specifics. Official literature and such with respect to the former, and more than "pretty much all of Genesis" for the latter. You know, specifics, as opposed to generalizations.

Theodor Madison
04-28-2011, 12:50 AM
So little do we know about the bible. Whether we believe it to be fact or fiction. of god or Should not, the question, Why do we exist be asked?, before we denounce anything. What is exactly the purpose of man.

Who are we to question anything? If we tend to know all the answers why ask questions. If we tend to think, all we are in the universe is a speck, That's all we are.

AUTaxMan
04-28-2011, 12:57 AM
So little do we know about the bible. Whether we believe it to be fact or fiction. of god or Should not, the question, Why do we exist be asked?, before we denounce anything. What is exactly the purpose of man.

Who are we to question anything? If we tend to know all the answers why ask questions. If we tend to think, all we are in the universe is a speck, That's all we are.

Boy does the horror they experienced in Tuscaloosa and Pleasant Grove, AL today remind me of that. Those people need prayers in a major way.

mrveggieman
04-28-2011, 07:19 AM
Boy does the horror they experienced in Tuscaloosa and Pleasant Grove, AL today remind me of that. Those people need prayers in a major way.


I agree with that 100%. We should all offer our prayers regardless of our religious beliefs. If you are an atheist please have a moment of silence for the victims.

mrveggieman
04-28-2011, 07:25 AM
Here is another question that I want to post for our christian bretheren out there but anyone with an opinion is welcome to give it. In the book of leviticus homosexuality is prohibited and that is what a lot of christians go by. I am ok with that but levicitus also clearly gives a list of dietary restrictions including bans on eating pork, certian seafoods and birds. Also Genesis 1:29 implies that God wants us to go on a vegetarian diet. "And God said , Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat." However a lot of Christians choose to ignore that part. My question is why do people pick and choose certian parts of the bible to go by and ignore the rest? Please don't take this as a knock on christians or anyone else I'm just trying to get thoughts and imput.

habsheaven
04-28-2011, 07:48 AM
Here is another question that I want to post for our christian bretheren out there but anyone with an opinion is welcome to give it. In the book of leviticus homosexuality is prohibited and that is what a lot of christians go by. I am ok with that but levicitus also clearly gives a list of dietary restrictions including bans on eating pork, certian seafoods and birds. Also Genesis 1:29 implies that God wants us to go on a vegetarian diet. "And God said , Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat." However a lot of Christians choose to ignore that part. My question is why do people pick and choose certian parts of the bible to go by and ignore the rest? Please don't take this as a knock on christians or anyone else I'm just trying to get thoughts and imput.

As you can see from this thread, they don't necessarily pick and choose. Some passage the take at "face value", others they develop "elaborate interpretations" to conform with the values of today's society.

Star_Cards
04-28-2011, 09:13 AM
I'm saying it cannot be proven one way or the other, so neither assumption is more logical than the other.

I hear you but being on the side that he exists doesn't seem to be as logical in my opinion.

Star_Cards
04-28-2011, 09:22 AM
Well, answer my last question - what would evidence of God involve?

For me I'm not sure. I just know that every so called evidence that I've heard from believers equates to magic. Take the different races, no matter what is said to support when and where different races were created all a believer has to say is "God scattered them around and changed their looks and languages because he was mad at them." If one side is arguing logically and the other side can just say "God did it" it's hardly an argument being played on the same playing field.

pantherfan82
04-28-2011, 09:26 AM
Here is another question that I want to post for our christian bretheren out there but anyone with an opinion is welcome to give it. In the book of leviticus homosexuality is prohibited and that is what a lot of christians go by. I am ok with that but levicitus also clearly gives a list of dietary restrictions including bans on eating pork, certian seafoods and birds. Also Genesis 1:29 implies that God wants us to go on a vegetarian diet. "And God said , Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat." However a lot of Christians choose to ignore that part. My question is why do people pick and choose certian parts of the bible to go by and ignore the rest? Please don't take this as a knock on christians or anyone else I'm just trying to get thoughts and imput.

I have noticed that a lot. Depending on what people need rhe bible to say at q certain time some parts are said to be literal and others figurative. Seems odd to me

Theodor Madison
04-28-2011, 09:29 AM
I agree, no one knows when the time is to comes. Stand prepared. To man all things will be revealed. We may not understand all things weather they are fact or false. Perhaps the answers are beyond our scientific intelligence, or spiritual relation with God.


Boy does the horror they experienced in Tuscaloosa and Pleasant Grove, AL today remind me of that. Those people need prayers in a major way.

pantherfan82
04-28-2011, 09:31 AM
For me I'm not sure. I just know that every so called evidence that I've heard from believers equates to magic. Take the different races, no matter what is said to support when and where different races were created all a believer has to say is "God scattered them around and changed their looks and languages because he was mad at them." If one side is arguing logically and the other side can just say "God did it" it's hardly an argument being played on the same playing field.

Debating the bible with a christian is almost Pointless at times. I've got a friend that anything positive then god did that. Anything negative then that's the devil. I just laugh.

Star_Cards
04-28-2011, 09:32 AM
You keep saying that but I would like to know what you mean by it... I asked earlier but I am sure that post is buried by now....

yeah, missed it.

There are a lot of people that want to make law by using their personal religious moral compass... (i.e. abortion, gay marriage, and so on) For me, in a country that allows freedom of religion, I don't see how any one religious group can feel that it's right to force everyone to live by any one religious code. I get that people' faith can be a big part of their lives, but I would think that these people would be open minded enough to know that their way of living isn't the only way. By legislating by one's religion forces everyone else to follow that code as well, but not everyone believes what the majority religion in this country believes.

And before anyone jumps in, I am speaking about personal choice type of laws, not things that deal with violating other people's rights being legal or not.

Star_Cards
04-28-2011, 09:47 AM
Here is another question that I want to post for our christian bretheren out there but anyone with an opinion is welcome to give it. In the book of leviticus homosexuality is prohibited and that is what a lot of christians go by. I am ok with that but levicitus also clearly gives a list of dietary restrictions including bans on eating pork, certian seafoods and birds. Also Genesis 1:29 implies that God wants us to go on a vegetarian diet. "And God said , Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat." However a lot of Christians choose to ignore that part. My question is why do people pick and choose certian parts of the bible to go by and ignore the rest? Please don't take this as a knock on christians or anyone else I'm just trying to get thoughts and imput.

This is another major issue I have about religion. Believers want to say that their book is the way it should be 100% (no matter which religion) and yet over time they seem to pick and choose what they want to believe and follow. In this case specifically I see it as they are grossed out by homosexuals so they say god is against it and yet they like the taste of pork so they hide that rule against it away. I see it as a cop out. For these people it's easier to judge something like homosexuality as wrong because they have no attraction to it personally, but yet they don't have the strength themselves to not do something the bible says not to do because they like it.

I also find it ironic when you hear guys that are against homosexuality because it's in the bible saying it's wrong and yet they don't seem to mind it as much if it's two girls.

karnivore
04-28-2011, 09:48 AM
What a ludicrous oversimplification. That might have been their problem, but you apparently ignored everything I had to say on the subject. Nice use of air-quotes there too; nice No True Scotsman fallacy. I explained my views on the subject not just because of some mad, defensive reactions I got from random Christians off the street, but also because that's what supposedly reputable and enlightened Christian organizations use in their official literature and propaganda. In other words, the things I quoted them as saying is not just the defensive sputterings of people caught off guard, it's official doctrine that is being reproduced and propagated by well-financed individuals with a vast audience and a shady agenda. And for you to attempt to dismiss that in such a way indicates that you're either unaware of what your co-religionists are doing, or you do know and you're playing coverup for them.



Hah, I needed a good laugh. Never been anything about the Bible debunked? Hilarious. It's not my fault if you can't admit your Bible isn't 100% accurate and literal. And if you can't admit that, there's really nothing else to say.

And I've already explained why I don't believe in your god. You obviously didn't read my explanation. So I'm not going to bother taking the time to elaborate if you're not going to bother to take the time to listen.

I have never in my life heard "Doctrine" to tell people to have non-believers disprove God. I would love to know these actual documents, but like someone pointed out you have to come up with them. And no, internet sites won't cut it since your generalizing it as actual Doctrine.

And like I said, for you to "laugh" give EXAMPLES of whats been debunked and we can talk.


The things about "Can you prove there's no god" and "atheists have faith there's no god."



That, and pretty much all of Genesis, as well as assorted things throughout the document. I'm pretty sure a complete index of all the "scientific" claims the Bible makes which have been debunked wouldn't be hard to find.

Again, never heard of materials talk about that. Please share.

If its so easy to find, how come your telling us we have to look it up? Since your on the side of telling us its fiction, why can't you do your due diligence and come to a debate prepared? We sholdn't have to come and debate for both sides.


So little do we know about the bible. Whether we believe it to be fact or fiction. of god or Should not, the question, Why do we exist be asked?, before we denounce anything. What is exactly the purpose of man.

Who are we to question anything? If we tend to know all the answers why ask questions. If we tend to think, all we are in the universe is a speck, That's all we are.

We know alot about the Bible. The Bible talks about ancient tribes many thought were not real, but was found exactly as the Bible talked about. Non-Christian historians document facts about the Bible as well, well known Flavius Josephus and Tactius. The only things that we can't prove are the Miracles. Hence the reason why people can't believe in it.


Here is another question that I want to post for our christian bretheren out there but anyone with an opinion is welcome to give it. In the book of leviticus homosexuality is prohibited and that is what a lot of christians go by. I am ok with that but levicitus also clearly gives a list of dietary restrictions including bans on eating pork, certian seafoods and birds. Also Genesis 1:29 implies that God wants us to go on a vegetarian diet. "And God said , Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat." However a lot of Christians choose to ignore that part. My question is why do people pick and choose certian parts of the bible to go by and ignore the rest? Please don't take this as a knock on christians or anyone else I'm just trying to get thoughts and imput.

Heres a paragraph that I have found about that when I have looked up this before:

"Christ came to fulfill the law but not all of the law is obsolete. Wherever the Bible shows in the New testament that something is fulfilled then that part of the Old Testament is not binding for Christians. Example; Jesus was the lamb of God who took away the sins of the world fulfills the need for a blood sacrifice to atone for sins. No more blood sacrifices are needed. Marriage will be done away in heaven but until then what the law and the New Testament says about marriage is still binding. Another example: all foods were declared clean to Peter by the Lord as well as in the book of Hebrews so the old Testament dietary laws are not binding but they could be optional. Stoning people under the law may still be technically valid but Jesus said "let he who is without sin throw the first stone" in that situation. Mercy is more emphasized in the New Testament because of the severity of Hell and the last judgment which is now clearly revealed to us."


So basically most of the Old Testament laws have been fulfilled, but not all. So once Peter said all food is clean, that takes away alot of those dietry restrictions. Theres never been scripture that says homosexuality is not a sin, so thats why people go by that one still.

I personally have issues about the Leviticus 19:28, but Ill save that for later if anyone wants to discuss it.


For me I'm not sure. I just know that every so called evidence that I've heard from believers equates to magic. Take the different races, no matter what is said to support when and where different races were created all a believer has to say is "God scattered them around and changed their looks and languages because he was mad at them." If one side is arguing logically and the other side can just say "God did it" it's hardly an argument being played on the same playing field.


I don't think it was as much to do as mad, it was more about he made peoples race actually go with their area of living, if you understand it. Its why black people started in Africa, because of the climate conditions white people wouldn't have been well there. He just made people adept to their surroundings.

Star_Cards
04-28-2011, 10:01 AM
Debating the bible with a christian is almost Pointless at times. I've got a friend that anything positive then god did that. Anything negative then that's the devil. I just laugh.

I hear you! I guess at that point you don't even bother discussing that topic with them.

Star_Cards
04-28-2011, 10:05 AM
I don't think it was as much to do as mad, it was more about he made peoples race actually go with their area of living, if you understand it. Its why black people started in Africa, because of the climate conditions white people wouldn't have been well there. He just made people adept to their surroundings.

so you are saying that their races were already different by the time god moved the people around? From what I got from the post by AUTaxMan, God changed their languages and I assumed race as well so that they wouldn't just stay living in one area.

karnivore
04-28-2011, 10:14 AM
Debating the bible with a christian is almost Pointless at times. I've got a friend that anything positive then god did that. Anything negative then that's the devil. I just laugh.


Dont judge us all because of your one friend. Thats like saying all Panthers fans are dumb because one thought Jimmy Clausen was their franchise QB :P


I hear you! I guess at that point you don't even bother discussing that topic with them.

Like we talked about before, the loudest "Christians" are the ones with the most skeletons in their closet, or just uneducated. Not saying I have all the answers, but if I believe something atleast Im gonna research it.


so you are saying that their races were already different by the time god moved the people around? From what I got from the post by AUTaxMan, God changed their languages and I assumed race as well so that they wouldn't just stay living in one area.

Im saying once they moved to their region their skin adapted to their enviroment. So yes, it changed with their languages.

Star_Cards
04-28-2011, 10:15 AM
Im saying once they moved to their region their skin adapted to their enviroment. So yes, it changed with their languages.

Hmm... sounds like a bit of an evolution. :)

mrveggieman
04-28-2011, 10:16 AM
Speaking of everyone's favorite book in the bible Leviticus here's another question that I have.
In the King James Version, Leviticus 18:22 is translated: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." Again I understand exactly what it is saying and have no problem with it. The verse deals with a form of sexual immorality (homosexuality). My question is why do people pound homosexuality as wrong into the ground but barely mention other forms of sexual immorality such as adultrey or having sex out of wedlock. Also why do some preachers act like homosexuality is worse than child rape or murder? I mean c'mon now. Yes it is a sin but I would think that raping a child would be worse than having consensual sex with another adult.

karnivore
04-28-2011, 10:19 AM
Hmm... sounds like a bit of an evolution. :)


I dont see the correlation at all. One was languages and color of skin. The other is from a single cell organism to our design of our body. I honestly dont see it. If you go to other nations, and stay there for awhile youll pick up on accents/languaes, and depending on where your at your skin may change in tone. I dont see how its equal at all.

karnivore
04-28-2011, 10:23 AM
Speaking of everyone's favorite book in the bible Leviticus here's another question that I have.
In the King James Version, Leviticus 18:22 is translated: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." Again I understand exactly what it is saying and have no problem with it. The verse deals with a form of sexual immorality (homosexuality). My question is why do people pound homosexuality as wrong into the ground but barely mention other forms of sexual immorality such as adultrey or having sex out of wedlock. Also why do some preachers act like homosexuality is worse than child rape or murder? I mean c'mon now. Yes it is a sin but I would think that raping a child would be worse than having consensual sex with another adult.

Your going into the human part of this all, when this should be about the Bible. People take things out of context in the Bible to fit their beliefs, when it should be the other way around. All sin is sin, and its all bad. Some are worse then others yes.

Star_Cards
04-28-2011, 10:29 AM
Speaking of everyone's favorite book in the bible Leviticus here's another question that I have.
In the King James Version, Leviticus 18:22 is translated: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." Again I understand exactly what it is saying and have no problem with it. The verse deals with a form of sexual immorality (homosexuality). My question is why do people pound homosexuality as wrong into the ground but barely mention other forms of sexual immorality such as adultrey or having sex out of wedlock. Also why do some preachers act like homosexuality is worse than child rape or murder? I mean c'mon now. Yes it is a sin but I would think that raping a child would be worse than having consensual sex with another adult.

My opinion on it is because the majority of people against homosexuality will preach against it because they have no attraction towards it. When it's something they want to do that is when you don't hear much about it. That's not to say that people are against it within the christian faith... or any faith for that matter. Plus you hear more about homosexuality because there are laws banning the marriage against it. The laws against adultery are rarely enforced and there is no law against pre marital sex.

I agree with you on the topic of I would think child rape or any rape for that matter is worse than being a homosexual. I'd guess that more people no matter their faith feel that way.

As for you understand exactly what "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." means. Seems like it could be open to a few different points of interpretation to me.

karnivore
04-28-2011, 10:33 AM
My opinion on it is because the majority of people against homosexuality will preach against it because they have no attraction towards it. When it's something they want to do that is when you don't hear much about it. That's not to say that people are against it within the christian faith... or any faith for that matter. Plus you hear more about homosexuality because there are laws banning the marriage against it. The laws against adultery are rarely enforced and there is no law against pre marital sex.

I agree with you on the topic of I would think child rape or any rape for that matter is worse than being a homosexual. I'd guess that more people no matter their faith feel that way.

As for you understand exactly what "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." means. Seems like it could be open to a few different points of interpretation to me.


Your first post is spot on. Can agree with fully. Its why most Christians don't actually like to read about/ do research about their religion to be honest. If they do, they'll realize they live a life not how they are suppose, but they don't want to change.

They do/should.

Personally, I don't read KJV. So someone else can go into that one. My version says "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Star_Cards
04-28-2011, 10:35 AM
I dont see the correlation at all. One was languages and color of skin. The other is from a single cell organism to our design of our body. I honestly dont see it. If you go to other nations, and stay there for awhile youll pick up on accents/languaes, and depending on where your at your skin may change in tone. I dont see how its equal at all.

sure it's not an instant jump from single celled evolution to man, but it is a show of a fairly extensive evolution between the races due to areas of the world in which they lived. It's not just skin color and languages. The different races have many more differences than just that. There are different facial features, body types/sizes, and more. My point is simply even if you believe that god placed all of these people that descended from the same mother and father around the world in different climates, they ended up looking very different by the different places they lived over time. Not just had darker or lighter skin due to the area in which he placed them. Although I guess if you want to say that god also changes their looks as he "moved" these people around I have no defense to that.

karnivore
04-28-2011, 10:37 AM
sure it's not an instant jump from single celled evolution to man, but it is a show of a fairly extensive evolution between the races due to areas of the world in which they lived. It's not just skin color but facial features, size differences, and any other differences each race has from the other. My point is simply even if you believe that god placed all of these people that descended from the same mother and father they ended up looking very different by the different places they lived over time.

So your not comparing it to the Evolution theories, just that over time people can change somewhat depending on where they live? I can agree to that.

Star_Cards
04-28-2011, 10:50 AM
So your not comparing it to the Evolution theories, just that over time people can change somewhat depending on where they live? I can agree to that.

"change somewhat depending on where they live" = evolution.

and if man can evolve in these ways in such a short period of time (with the earth being billions of years old) I think it's plausible to think man as we know it today evolved much more drastically over these billions of years.

karnivore
04-28-2011, 10:55 AM
"change somewhat depending on where they live" = evolution.

and if man can evolve in these ways in such a short period of time (with the earth being billions of years old) I think it's plausible to think man as we know it today evolved much more drastically over these billions of years.


Then we get into the whole timeline of the Earth thing :)

If humans evolved, wouldn't we have fossils to back that up? Ive never seen any fossils of half animal/ half human. Its all been animals we can precisely say what it is. And then the point I brought before, have you seen a ACL? The way everything goes together so perfectly, I dont see how that could have been evolved.

Trying to remember exactly, but wasn't the "Theory" just a paragraph in one of Darwins books, not a actual experiment?

AUTaxMan
04-28-2011, 10:56 AM
sure it's not an instant jump from single celled evolution to man, but it is a show of a fairly extensive evolution between the races due to areas of the world in which they lived. It's not just skin color and languages. The different races have many more differences than just that. There are different facial features, body types/sizes, and more. My point is simply even if you believe that god placed all of these people that descended from the same mother and father around the world in different climates, they ended up looking very different by the different places they lived over time. Not just had darker or lighter skin due to the area in which he placed them. Although I guess if you want to say that god also changes their looks as he "moved" these people around I have no defense to that.

Man, I've missed a lot this morning, but the Bible doesn't say anything about God changing peoples' appearance when they were displaced around the earth. I assume that because of the limited gene pools in which the displaced civilizations flourished, and because of climate and environmental conditions, differing races developed over thousands of years.

mrveggieman
04-28-2011, 10:57 AM
Personally, I don't read KJV. So someone else can go into that one. My version says "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."[/quote]


That's another good point that you bought up. I remember someone telling me when I was younger that I should always go with the KJV of the Bible because that is the correct translation. My question is with so many translations of the Bible which one is correct and how do you determine such? Is anyone worried that some of God's message is lost in the translation? Also how come no one learns Greek and Hebrew so they can read the scriptures in their orginal form?

habsheaven
04-28-2011, 10:58 AM
Im saying once they moved to their region their skin adapted to their enviroment. So yes, it changed with their languages.

Can we get into the specifics of their "re-location"?

How did He transport these people to these different worldly locales?

How did they survive in a new land (let's say the Arctic) when they were used to a climate found in the Middle East?

Why did some of these people begin worshipping Mother Earth and Father Sky, while others worshipped a Sun God?

How did He determine who didn't have to get uprooted?

Is this starting to sound absurd?

karnivore
04-28-2011, 11:00 AM
Personally, I don't read KJV. So someone else can go into that one. My version says "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."


That's another good point that you bought up. I remember someone telling me when I was younger that I should always go with the KJV of the Bible because that is the correct translation. My question is with so many translations of the Bible which one is correct and how do you determine such? Is anyone worried that some of God's message is lost in the translation? Also how come no one learns Greek and Hebrew so they can read the scriptures in their orginal form?[/quote]


When it means different versions it talks about how easy is it for you to read. People don't talk like they did in the KJV times, so instead of trying to decipher those words, it has been updated for easier to read.

People do learn other languages just so they can read the versions in Greek and Hebrew. To say noone does is a major stretch. Me? Its hard for me to learn Spanish, so I can't possibly learn those two.

AUTaxMan
04-28-2011, 11:00 AM
That's another good point that you bought up. I remember someone telling me when I was younger that I should always go with the KJV of the Bible because that is the correct translation. My question is with so many translations of the Bible which one is correct and how do you determine such? Is anyone worried that some of God's message is lost in the translation? Also how come no one learns Greek and Hebrew so they can read the scriptures in their orginal form?

This is utter nonsense. There are several versions translated from the original Hebrew and Greek texts that I believe are superior to the KJV. I go to the ESV online, and my primary Bible is the NASV. All of the mainstream translations that are generally accepted are correct. People who attend seminary have to learn Greek and Hebrew.

AUTaxMan
04-28-2011, 11:01 AM
Is this starting to sound absurd?

Yes, because you are asking questions that you know nobody can answer.

karnivore
04-28-2011, 11:05 AM
Can we get into the specifics of their "re-location"?

How did He transport these people to these different worldly locales?

How did they survive in a new land (let's say the Arctic) when they were used to a climate found in the Middle East?

Why did some of these people begin worshipping Mother Earth and Father Sky, while others worshipped a Sun God?

How did He determine who didn't have to get uprooted?

Is this starting to sound absurd?


Not absurd, but someone like myself (Being 22 and recently getting in Apologetics) can't answer those questions.

But one stab at the "how did he disperse" part, the world was one super continent, Pangaea. Once Babylon happened, each went to their continent and it dispersed. (Again, just throwing off the top of my head. Definately not anything thats been documented, nor in "Doctrine")

habsheaven
04-28-2011, 11:22 AM
Then we get into the whole timeline of the Earth thing :)

If humans evolved, wouldn't we have fossils to back that up? Ive never seen any fossils of half animal/ half human. Its all been animals we can precisely say what it is. And then the point I brought before, have you seen a ACL? The way everything goes together so perfectly, I dont see how that could have been evolved.

Trying to remember exactly, but wasn't the "Theory" just a paragraph in one of Darwins books, not a actual experiment?

You might want to see what you have been missing here:

http://www.worldmuseumofman.org/hum.php

karnivore
04-28-2011, 11:28 AM
You might want to see what you have been missing here:

http://www.worldmuseumofman.org/hum.php


I am looking at the site, and reading about how long people have lived on Earth (according to their records), but I dont get exactly what your wanting me to look at? The fossils?

AUTaxMan
04-28-2011, 11:31 AM
You might want to see what you have been missing here:

http://www.worldmuseumofman.org/hum.php

How do they determine how old those bones are? Are they certain they evolved into homo erectus, or are they a different species altogether?

habsheaven
04-28-2011, 11:33 AM
I am looking at the site, and reading about how long people have lived on Earth (according to their records), but I dont get exactly what your wanting me to look at? The fossils?

Nice non-response.

No, I wanted you to look at the layout of the webpage. Didn't they do a bang-up job on it?

I mean really, what response of yours was I quoting?

habsheaven
04-28-2011, 11:37 AM
How do they determine how old those bones are? Are they certain they evolved into homo erectus, or are they a different species altogether?

I am guessing by carbon-dating. Look at the "quote" I posted this in response to.

If humans evolved, wouldn't we have fossils to back that up? Ive never seen any fossils of half animal/ half human. Its all been animals we can precisely say what it is.

karnivore
04-28-2011, 11:37 AM
Nice non-response.

No, I wanted you to look at the layout of the webpage. Didn't they do a bang-up job on it?

I mean really, what response of yours was I quoting?


Umm, I really wanted to know what you wanted me to look at? I talked about half human/half animal fossils and you show me a face bone off a human that was primitive? Thats the best you came up with? How about this

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/03/0324_050324_trexsofttissue.html

By a actual reputable website, National Geographic. A T-Rex has soft tissue cells in it. If it was as old as it says it was, why would it still have the tissues?

AUTaxMan
04-28-2011, 11:39 AM
I am guessing by carbon-dating. Look at the "quote" I posted this in response to.

If humans evolved, wouldn't we have fossils to back that up? Ive never seen any fossils of half animal/ half human. Its all been animals we can precisely say what it is.

I see. So you responded by posting pictures of what? Is that a human or an animal?

karnivore
04-28-2011, 11:43 AM
I am guessing by carbon-dating. Look at the "quote" I posted this in response to.

If humans evolved, wouldn't we have fossils to back that up? Ive never seen any fossils of half animal/ half human. Its all been animals we can precisely say what it is.


Yeah, and on the website it says primitive human bones. I see face bones, I am talking about fossils that show half animal/ half human. Why do we not see this if it really happened?

And Carbon Dating has alot of flaws to be considered 100%

habsheaven
04-28-2011, 11:51 AM
Yeah, and on the website it says primitive human bones. I see face bones, I am talking about fossils that show half animal/ half human. Why do we not see this if it really happened?

And Carbon Dating has alot of flaws to be considered 100%

What would a half animal/half human fossil look like in your opinion? Is that your expectation of evolution?

You stated that all the fossils we have found are KNOWN animals. Which animals are these? You think these are human bones AFTER God created Adam?

habsheaven
04-28-2011, 11:54 AM
I see. So you responded by posting pictures of what? Is that a human or an animal?

Those are the half animal/half human skulls karnivore says do not exist.

mrveggieman
04-28-2011, 11:57 AM
Yes, because you are asking questions that you know nobody can answer.


I believe that any religion worth it's salt should be transparent. There shouldn't be any secrets that the masses don't have access to and their should be 1 simple and clear set of standards that everyone should adhere too. Unfortunately that is not the case.

habsheaven
04-28-2011, 11:57 AM
Umm, I really wanted to know what you wanted me to look at? I talked about half human/half animal fossils and you show me a face bone off a human that was primitive? Thats the best you came up with? How about this

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/03/0324_050324_trexsofttissue.html

By a actual reputable website, National Geographic. A T-Rex has soft tissue cells in it. If it was as old as it says it was, why would it still have the tissues?

Did you miss this part?

"Taken from a 70-million-year-old thighbone, the structures look like the blood vessels, cells, and proteins involved in bone formation."

How reputable do you think that website is?

And how would an accountant know the answer to that? Talk about absurd questions.

karnivore
04-28-2011, 11:57 AM
What would a half animal/half human fossil look like in your opinion? Is that your expectation of evolution?

You stated that all the fossils we have found are KNOWN animals. Which animals are these? You think these are human bones AFTER God created Adam?

Dude, the skulls it shows on the right says right underneath it... It says prehistoric humans. So since Im not a paleontologist and you gave me a site that your certain is correct, I was assuming it was human.

Im talking about fossils that show a full body of a person whose in the evolution stages that they apparently underwent i.e. curved back or something. Showing me just a skull that looks like a humans doesn't show me evolution.

karnivore
04-28-2011, 12:00 PM
I believe that any religion worth it's salt should be transparent. There shouldn't be any secrets that the masses don't have access to and their should be 1 simple and clear set of standards that everyone should adhere too. Unfortunately that is not the case.

Transparent, so everyone should know everything about everything then in fact making humans like God? We don't know everything because we aren't God, hence the reason we believe in him.




Did you miss this part?

"Taken from a 70-million-year-old thighbone, the structures look like the blood vessels, cells, and proteins involved in bone formation."

How reputable do you think that website is?

That website is reputable, Carbon Dating isn't. So your telling me a 70 million year old fossil had blood vessels and cells in it?

habsheaven
04-28-2011, 12:02 PM
Dude, the skulls it shows on the right says right underneath it... It says prehistoric humans. So since Im not a paleontologist and you gave me a site that your certain is correct, I was assuming it was human.

Im talking about fossils that show a full body of a person whose in the evolution stages that they apparently underwent i.e. curved back or something. Showing me just a skull that looks like a humans doesn't show me evolution.

Okay, can you point out the skull that most resembles Adam and his children on that site?

habsheaven
04-28-2011, 12:05 PM
That website is reputable, Carbon Dating isn't. So your telling me a 70 million year old fossil had blood vessels and cells in it?

So where in the article is the part that they start questioning Carbon Dating and the "obvious" new age for the fossil? I must have missed that part. And no, I am not telling you that. The reputable website IS.

karnivore
04-28-2011, 12:10 PM
Okay, can you point out the skull that most resembles Adam and his children on that site?

Like I just said in my previous post, Im no Paleontologists so I can't say. But if it says its a human skull, on a site you told me to look at, I was guessing it was.


So where in the article is the part that they start questioning Carbon Dating and the "obvious" new age for the fossil? I must have missed that part. And no, I am not telling you that. The reputable website IS.

They didn't question it, but there always has been questions about carbon dating. The website got its information from the study that happened, it wasn't like NG went and did the testing. But the fact remains your not answering the simple question that I have been asking: How can blood cells and all still be in a 70 million year old fossil?

habsheaven
04-28-2011, 12:12 PM
Transparent, so everyone should know everything about everything then in fact making humans like God? We don't know everything because we aren't God, hence the reason we believe in him.

I am just looking for your "best guess" on those questions. Have you never considered the logistics of it? If not, give it a shot.

karnivore
04-28-2011, 12:17 PM
I am just looking for your "best guess" on those questions. Have you never considered the logistics of it? If not, give it a shot.

So basically you want me to give my limited researched opinion on subjects that I haven't really worked on, so you can reject my idea and claim that another Christian is talking about stuff he doesn't know about? Look back a couple pages and youll see people talking about that. Im comfortable enough to say I dont know sometimes.

AUTaxMan
04-28-2011, 12:17 PM
I am just looking for your "best guess" on those questions. Have you never considered the logistics of it? If not, give it a shot.

Since God is all-powerful, he could have teleported them for all we know. Based on the assumption of God's omnipotence, any answer would be plausible, so does it really matter how they got there or who got sent where?

habsheaven
04-28-2011, 12:20 PM
Like I just said in my previous post, Im no Paleontologists so I can't say. But if it says its a human skull, on a site you told me to look at, I was guessing it was.

I believe it says they are prehistoric human skulls. My mistake, I thought that was what you meant by half human/half animal. As soon as they find one with antlers I will let you know.



They didn't question it, but there always has been questions about carbon dating. The website got its information from the study that happened, it wasn't like NG went and did the testing. But the fact remains your not answering the simple question that I have been asking: How can blood cells and all still be in a 70 million year old fossil?

Guess what? Just as you are not a Paleontologist, I am not a scientist. So why are you expecting me to answer that question? I can offer this though. What are your thoughts on the T-rex's age? How old is too old for there to be "soft tissue"? What exactly was the point of posting the website? Are you telling me 6,000 years is not too old and T-Rex must have been hanging out with Adam in the Garden of Eden?

habsheaven
04-28-2011, 12:24 PM
Since God is all-powerful, he could have teleported them for all we know. Based on the assumption of God's omnipotence, any answer would be plausible, so does it really matter how they got there or who got sent where?

It matters because it "makes no sense".

So he could have just "wiggled" his nose and they all just went "poof" welcome to your new digs!!

AUTaxMan
04-28-2011, 12:29 PM
It matters because it "makes no sense".

So he could have just "wiggled" his nose and they all just went "poof" welcome to your new digs!!

It does make sense if you believe that there is an omnipotent God. Why is this concept so hard for you to grasp?

If "makes no sense" means "cannot be explained by science," you are assuming that (a) all things can be explained by science, and (b) there is no thing that the human does not have the capacity to comprehend.

I happen to believe that there are things that are beyond the realm of human comprehension. This is a reasonable assumption. It appears that you do not share this belief. Based on my assumption, an omnipotent and omnipresent God makes logical sense. Based on yours, it does not.

karnivore
04-28-2011, 12:30 PM
I believe it says they are prehistoric human skulls. My mistake, I thought that was what you meant by half human/half man. As soon as they find one with antlers I will let you know.



Guess what? Just as you are not a Paleontologist, I am not a scientist. So why are you expecting me to answer that question? I can offer this though. What are your thoughts on the T-rex's age? How old is too old for there to be "soft tissue"? What exactly was the point of posting the website? Are you telling me 6,000 years is not too old and T-Rex must have been hanging out with Adam in the Garden of Eden?


When does pre-historic mean "evolved from animals"? I dont get how you can equate the two. Pre-Historic means long ago before alot of stuff was recorded by pretty much nothing. And you better let me know about a human with antlers mister :)

The point of the website was that there should have been 0% chance of blood cells in a 70 million year old fossil, so for it to have been there it wouldn't be that old. Also, the fact that it said they had to break the thigh bone to remove it is when they found it. They usually don't break dinosaur bones, but keep them intact. Not saying we should, but I wonder how many more will have blood cells for them to think it might not have been so long ago.

*censored*
04-28-2011, 12:35 PM
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

--Epicurus, Greek philosopher, BC 341-270

karnivore
04-28-2011, 12:45 PM
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

--Epicurus, Greek philosopher, BC 341-270

I dont get how he is wishing ill or violence to people when he doesn't stop things from happening. He could stop it yes, but from bad things good things happen, notably compassion.

habsheaven
04-28-2011, 12:46 PM
It does make sense if you believe that there is an omnipotent God. Why is this concept so hard for you to grasp?

If "makes no sense" means "cannot be explained by science," you are assuming that (a) all things can be explained by science, and (b) there is no thing that the human does not have the capacity to comprehend.

I happen to believe that there are things that are beyond the realm of human comprehension. This is a reasonable assumption. It appears that you do not share this belief. Based on my assumption, an omnipotent and omnipresent God makes logical sense. Based on yours, it does not.

If you grasp the concept of an omnipotent God, than yes is doesn't have to make sense. "Makes no sense" to me means I have read up on "scientific" explanations for human migration. Granted there are many hypothesis mixed in along the way and varying theories for different migrations, but the circumstantial evidence supporting some sort of physical migration over generations is staggering. I choose to accept these theories as more plausible than an omnipotent God. Why is that so hard to grasp?

AUTaxMan
04-28-2011, 12:48 PM
If you grasp the concept of an omnipotent God, than yes is doesn't have to make sense. "Makes no sense" to me means I have read up on "scientific" explanations for human migration. Granted there are many hypothesis mixed in along the way and varying theories for different migrations, but the circumstantial evidence supporting some sort of physical migration over generations is staggering. I choose to accept these theories as more plausible than an omnipotent God. Why is that so hard to grasp?

I never said that those theories made no sense. In fact, I never addressed them at all.

Star_Cards
04-28-2011, 12:51 PM
Another good question about the creation of the bible... If the bible was in fact written by god or by man directly through god, then what about translation. The original wasn't written in english so who's to say it's all been translated correctly.

AUTaxMan
04-28-2011, 12:55 PM
Another good question about the creation of the bible... If the bible was in fact written by god or by man directly through god, then what about translation. The original wasn't written in english so who's to say it's all been translated correctly.

The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, the New Testament in Greek, and has been translated many, many times. Because of the consistencies in translation, it is generally accepted as having been correctly translated. There are concordances and other scholarly sources that address varying translations and why they might differ.

karnivore
04-28-2011, 12:55 PM
Another good question about the creation of the bible... If the bible was in fact written by god or by man directly through god, then what about translation. The original wasn't written in english so who's to say it's all been translated correctly.

It was written through man from God.
If it wasn't translated correctly there would be alot of news about it differing from the original script. There are still Greek and Hebrew texts to where we can gather from it.

habsheaven
04-28-2011, 12:58 PM
When does pre-historic mean "evolved from animals"? I dont get how you can equate the two. Pre-Historic means long ago before alot of stuff was recorded by pretty much nothing. And you better let me know about a human with antlers mister :)

It doesn't. It means older humans evolving from an earlier stage of life. I am not sure why you insist on humans needing to evolve from an animal.



The point of the website was that there should have been 0% chance of blood cells in a 70 million year old fossil, so for it to have been there it wouldn't be that old. Also, the fact that it said they had to break the thigh bone to remove it is when they found it. They usually don't break dinosaur bones, but keep them intact. Not saying we should, but I wonder how many more will have blood cells for them to think it might not have been so long ago.

You know this how? You say this why? You think they are lying? You think they missed the age by what, 69.99 million years?

AUTaxMan
04-28-2011, 01:04 PM
I think this will answer a lot of your questions, habs:

http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/AUTaxMan/Funny%20Stuff/dino.jpg

karnivore
04-28-2011, 01:06 PM
It doesn't. It means older humans evolving from an earlier stage of life. I am not sure why you insist on humans needing to evolve from an animal.



You know this how? You say this why? You think they are lying? You think they missed the age by what, 69.99 million years?


Because you said evolution, and evolution depicts humans growing from single celled organisms through primates to humans. There are no fossils in the transition of a primate with disposible thumbs or stuff like that.

The first bolded part, if you go by the scientific theories like Caspers Law and other deomposition findings, it should have been straight bone after 70 millions years since its access to insects/moisture/ other enviromental aspects. There shouldnt have been nothing in the bones.

The second highlighted part... It says they had to break the thigh bone to transport, which is how they found the blood cells.

habsheaven
04-28-2011, 01:14 PM
I think this will answer a lot of your questions, habs:

http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/AUTaxMan/Funny%20Stuff/dino.jpg

Nope, doesn't help. Now I am wondering why Jesus looks like a white man? lol

mrveggieman
04-28-2011, 01:16 PM
[quote=karnivore;9701922]Transparent, so everyone should know everything about everything then in fact making humans like God? We don't know everything because we aren't God, hence the reason we believe in him.

No I mean transparent where we have equal access to all the information and secrets that our religous leaders have. Also transparent where as our so called religious leaders would have accountable for spewing hatred and venom for twisting up scripture for their own evil agenda. Now I'm not talking about all religious leaders I'm talking about people like Terry Jones, Fallwell and Osama bin Laden. I use the term religious leaders very loose when referring to those clowns.

AUTaxMan
04-28-2011, 01:21 PM
No I mean transparent where we have equal access to all the information and secrets that our religous leaders have. Also transparent where as our so called religious leaders would have accountable for spewing hatred and venom for twisting up scripture for their own evil agenda. Now I'm not talking about all religious leaders I'm talking about people like Terry Jones, Fallwell and Osama bin Laden. I use the term religious leaders very loose when referring to those clowns.

In Christianity, we do all have equal access to the Bible. There are no religious secrets.

karnivore
04-28-2011, 01:23 PM
[quote=karnivore;9701922]Transparent, so everyone should know everything about everything then in fact making humans like God? We don't know everything because we aren't God, hence the reason we believe in him.

No I mean transparent where we have equal access to all the information and secrets that our religous leaders have. Also transparent where as our so called religious leaders would have accountable for spewing hatred and venom for twisting up scripture for their own evil agenda. Now I'm not talking about all religious leaders I'm talking about people like Terry Jones, Fallwell and Osama bin Laden. I use the term religious leaders very loose when referring to those clowns.

I can't explain Bin Ladens reasonings, so I can' explain it :/

Jerry Falwell is still human so the temptation of sin is still there and can lead to anyones downfall.

Terry Jones is just dumb.

mrveggieman
04-28-2011, 01:28 PM
In Christianity, we do all have equal access to the Bible. There are no religious secrets.

It would be nice if we did. However just like in the United States we have the constitution which is the law of the land that governs the people, the gov't has secrets the common man will never have access to. The average man may have access to a bible but not any of the church's secrets.

mrveggieman
04-28-2011, 01:30 PM
[quote=mrveggieman;9702213]

I can't explain Bin Ladens reasonings, so I can' explain it :/

Jerry Falwell is still human so the temptation of sin is still there and can lead to anyones downfall.

Terry Jones is just dumb.

I agree that all humans have sin in them and are faced with temptation every day but it's just a little to much for my liking to follow a man like Fallwell who spewed as much racism, bigotry, and homophobia as he did when he was alive. He had 0 credibility with me as a christian leader.

karnivore
04-28-2011, 01:30 PM
It would be nice if we did. However just like in the United States we have the constitution which is the law of the land that governs the people, the gov't has secrets the common man will never have access to. The average man may have access to a bible but not any of the church's secrets.

If there was religious secrets I highly doubt Terry Jones woulda known about them. Everything most Christian pastors know are through their research of the Bible.


Sidebar, have you read the Bible or any parts of it?

AUTaxMan
04-28-2011, 01:31 PM
It would be nice if we did. However just like in the United States we have the constitution which is the law of the land that governs the people, the gov't has secrets the common man will never have access to. The average man may have access to a bible but not any of the church's secrets.

I don't think I understand what you are getting at here. Secrets about what?

mrveggieman
04-28-2011, 01:40 PM
I don't think I understand what you are getting at here. Secrets about what?

Google ziegist the movie.

AUTaxMan
04-28-2011, 01:46 PM
Google ziegist the movie.

Do you honestly believe that nonsense, that Jesus' very existence was all one big conspiracy?

sanfran22
04-28-2011, 01:47 PM
Speaking of everyone's favorite book in the bible Leviticus here's another question that I have.
In the King James Version, Leviticus 18:22 is translated: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." Again I understand exactly what it is saying and have no problem with it. The verse deals with a form of sexual immorality (homosexuality). My question is why do people pound homosexuality as wrong into the ground but barely mention other forms of sexual immorality such as adultrey or having sex out of wedlock. Also why do some preachers act like homosexuality is worse than child rape or murder? I mean c'mon now. Yes it is a sin but I would think that raping a child would be worse than having consensual sex with another adult.
They are all wrong.....

AUTaxMan
04-28-2011, 01:50 PM
They are all wrong.....

Agreed.

sanfran22
04-28-2011, 01:50 PM
Can we get into the specifics of their "re-location"?

How did He transport these people to these different worldly locales?

How did they survive in a new land (let's say the Arctic) when they were used to a climate found in the Middle East?

Why did some of these people begin worshipping Mother Earth and Father Sky, while others worshipped a Sun God?

How did He determine who didn't have to get uprooted?

Is this starting to sound absurd?
I'll ask those questions one day for you, or maybe you can ask them yourself:winking0071:

Wudeverbro
04-28-2011, 01:59 PM
Well, im going to chime in. Im studying to be a youth pastor. Gods sovreign will and our free will work together in ways we dont understand. I do think he is omnisciene but I think we have free will to a certain extent. I think Jesus Chris died on the cross and rose on the third day. Your free will comes into whether you place your faith in Jesus/God. The Death on the Cross was sufficient for all, but efficient for some(who choose). I beleive in the Trinity, God, Son, Holy Spirit. Just my two cents, going to stop for now.

Well said man.

sanfran22
04-28-2011, 01:59 PM
To the person that asked about the murderer awhile back. If that murderer confessed his sins and accepted Jesus before he was killed, he would be in heaven regardless of his horrible life. Only God would know his heart and if he was truly sincere, but if he was he would be saved.
Reminds me of the Dahmer story. Not sure if true, or what his heart's intent was. But supposedly he accepted Christ in prison. If true, he will be standing with God in heaven with all the rest of us saved christians despite his life of wickedness......

sanfran22
04-28-2011, 02:00 PM
well said man.
+2

mrveggieman
04-28-2011, 02:00 PM
Do you honestly believe that nonsense, that Jesus' very existence was all one big conspiracy?


I'm not going to go as far as suggesting that Jesus did not exist but I am going to say that the people who run the church have the same flaws as everyone else and there's no way that I'm going to believe that there are no secrets or corruption inside of the chruch.

AUTaxMan
04-28-2011, 02:04 PM
I'm not going to go as far as suggesting that Jesus did not exist but I am going to say that the people who run the church have the same flaws as everyone else and there's no way that I'm going to believe that there are no secrets or corruption inside of the chruch.

Can't that be said of any organization? Humans have flaws, and people keep secrets. The church is no different, but its imperfection is certainly no reason to reject it.

mrveggieman
04-28-2011, 02:05 PM
To the person that asked about the murderer awhile back. If that murderer confessed his sins and accepted Jesus before he was killed, he would be in heaven regardless of his horrible life. Only God would know his heart and if he was truly sincere, but if he was he would be saved.
Reminds me of the Dahmer story. Not sure if true, or what his heart's intent was. But supposedly he accepted Christ in prison. If true, he will be standing with God in heaven with all the rest of us saved christians despite his life of wickedness......

I was the one who asked about the murderer. For the purpose of my story the killer wanted salvation and was told where he could go for salvation. The story never said what the salvation was and the killer did not know exactly what he was going for. He never accepted anything because he died before he knew. So knowing those facts would he still get into heaven?

mrveggieman
04-28-2011, 02:06 PM
Can't that be said of any organization? Humans have flaws, and people keep secrets. The church is no different, but its imperfection is certainly no reason to reject it.

I'm not rejecting anything. I'm just calling for transpencery and accountability.

sanfran22
04-28-2011, 02:07 PM
I was the one who asked about the murderer. For the purpose of my story the killer wanted salvation and was told where he could go for salvation. The story never said what the salvation was and the killer did not know exactly what he was going for. He never accepted anything because he died before he knew. So knowing those facts would he still get into heaven?
In your scenario, no.....

Wudeverbro
04-28-2011, 02:13 PM
I was the one who asked about the murderer. For the purpose of my story the killer wanted salvation and was told where he could go for salvation. The story never said what the salvation was and the killer did not know exactly what he was going for. He never accepted anything because he died before he knew. So knowing those facts would he still get into heaven?

If he didn't accept him by the time he died, then I would say no, but it's really not up to us to really say whether he's going or not. Maybe there is a time in bt when we die and when we get judged you get to make a final plea for faith. There's nothing in the Bible that suggests that but no one truly knows. I am a steadfast believer in Christ but there's no guarantee that I get into heaven either. I know I believe in Him and will get there, but only God can judge that, and I fully entrust that to Him.

I think the hardest part of believing in God is faith. There's a lot of stuff in the Word that doesn't make sense or even seem humanly possible but it all boils down to whether you can just give your life to God. I don't think you can really force feed anyone into Christ, but can only be lead to Him by your own experiences. Christianity is not for everyone.

mrveggieman
04-28-2011, 02:17 PM
If he didn't accept him by the time he died, then I would say no, but it's really not up to us to really say whether he's going or not. Maybe there is a time in bt when we die and when we get judged you get to make a final plea for faith. There's nothing in the Bible that suggests that but no one truly knows. I am a steadfast believer in Christ but there's no guarantee that I get into heaven either. I know I believe in Him and will get there, but only God can judge that, and I fully entrust that to Him.

I think the hardest part of believing in God is faith. There's a lot of stuff in the Word that doesn't make sense or even seem humanly possible but it all boils down to whether you can just give your life to God. I don't think you can really force feed anyone into Christ, but can only be lead to Him by your own experiences. Christianity is not for everyone.

Of all the responses I read from both sides of the spectrum on this topic this is in my opinion one of the best spoken.

Star_Cards
04-28-2011, 02:21 PM
To the person that asked about the murderer awhile back. If that murderer confessed his sins and accepted Jesus before he was killed, he would be in heaven regardless of his horrible life. Only God would know his heart and if he was truly sincere, but if he was he would be saved.
Reminds me of the Dahmer story. Not sure if true, or what his heart's intent was. But supposedly he accepted Christ in prison. If true, he will be standing with God in heaven with all the rest of us saved christians despite his life of wickedness......

to me that makes zero sense. why would a person that does horrible things to others but then finds jesus/god/christianity deserve heaven more than a person that doesn't do those things but just doesn't believe. If I were ever going to be part of a religion that believed in a heaven/hell existence I would hope that it would be one that would accept people of other beliefs as long as they are good people. To me I'd think an individual's life actions are far more meaningful than weather or not he believes. I know a lot of people that believe in a god but are complete immoral people. I guess as long as you believe and are truly sorry after every immoral act you're good to get into heaven. Doesn't really fly with me. Most people go by actions of an individual not what he says when deciding if they want them in their life.

Wudeverbro
04-28-2011, 02:28 PM
Of all the responses I read from both sides of the spectrum on this topic this is in my opinion one of the best spoken.

The thing that irks me about a lot of my Christian brothers and sisters is that many are condemning and judging people. There's a lack of humility and love on what they preach. You can speak the truth without condemning people. Is it hard to do that? Heck yea! But the qualms I have with people who stand out on the corner with a sign that says you're all going to hell are not loving Christians, and they leave a bad rap for a lot of Christians by doing that.

sanfran22
04-28-2011, 02:34 PM
to me that makes zero sense. why would a person that does horrible things to others but then finds jesus/god/christianity deserve heaven more than a person that doesn't do those things but just doesn't believe. If I were ever going to be part of a religion that believed in a heaven/hell existence I would hope that it would be one that would accept people of other beliefs as long as they are good people. To me I'd think an individual's life actions are far more meaningful than weather or not he believes. I know a lot of people that believe in a god but are complete immoral people. I guess as long as you believe and are truly sorry after every immoral act you're good to get into heaven. Doesn't really fly with me. Most people go by actions of an individual not what he says when deciding if they want them in their life.
Short and sweet, First I would suggest reading the Bible. You will see what I am referring to. Secondly There is only one way to heaven and is is a free gift. Believing in God and accepting Him are two different things. It is never too late to get into heaven (until the end) but it is always too late to wait(because you don't know how much time you have). That's my quickie version, sorry it's kinda busy here.:sign0020:

sanfran22
04-28-2011, 02:35 PM
The thing that irks me about a lot of my Christian brothers and sisters is that many are condemning and judging people. There's a lack of humility and love on what they preach. You can speak the truth without condemning people. Is it hard to do that? Heck yea! But the qualms I have with people who stand out on the corner with a sign that says you're all going to hell are not loving Christians, and they leave a bad rap for a lot of Christians by doing that.
Yes, condeming and judging is wrong. But we also have been instructed to share and alot of times it can be perceived as that....

Wudeverbro
04-28-2011, 02:37 PM
to me that makes zero sense. why would a person that does horrible things to others but then finds jesus/god/christianity deserve heaven more than a person that doesn't do those things but just doesn't believe. If I were ever going to be part of a religion that believed in a heaven/hell existence I would hope that it would be one that would accept people of other beliefs as long as they are good people. To me I'd think an individual's life actions are far more meaningful than weather or not he believes. I know a lot of people that believe in a god but are complete immoral people. I guess as long as you believe and are truly sorry after every immoral act you're good to get into heaven. Doesn't really fly with me. Most people go by actions of an individual not what he says when deciding if they want them in their life.

It's probably one of the hardest things to overcome in terms of believing, justifying why a wicked, immoral person who places in faith in Jesus moments before he dies compared to a loving and just person who never professes his faith. I will say this is false though

"I guess as long as you believe and are truly sorry after every immoral act you're good to get into heaven."

Placing your faith in Christ does not allow you to blot out every sinful act you have done. Your heart must change once you profess your faith and if your faith is real, you will seek to have a life that is like Jesus. if you continue to sin and just say, "well I'll confess and I am good to go," that is unacceptable and would not be worthy of a life of Christ. God is not fine with that and is the only one who can judge the heart of each person who confesses their life to Him.

mrveggieman
04-28-2011, 02:42 PM
Another problem I have with religious people, not just christians but anyone who claims a particular religion is that a lot of them spend all of their time trying to prove how the next man's religion is wrong and that they are going to hell instead of doing something positive to improve their community, help their brothers and sisters and to glofiry God. Sad to say religion is starting to mirror politics. Alot of lip service but no actions.

gatorboymike
04-28-2011, 02:43 PM
Only further demonstrating that no creationist understands what evolution is or how it works. And that's by their own choice, to remain willfully ignorant.

And as for Jesus not existing, the character depicted in the gospels almost certainly did not exist. He was probably loosely based on a real person, probably an amalgamation of several real people (since first-century Palestine was bristling with self-proclaimed messiahs), but the miracle worker with supernatural powers, who was sent by a supernatural being and/or was a supernatural being himself? Highly unlikely.

And oh yes, this god that would reward a murderer who believes with an eternity of bliss but punish a righteous nonbeliever with an eternity of torture, because its only criteria for judgment is whether or not they were in the mood to praise and worship it at the exact moment of their death? Heck of a god you got there, buddy. And if that's your role model, I don't think very highly of that.

theonedru
04-28-2011, 02:45 PM
The thing that irks me about a lot of my Christian brothers and sisters is that many are condemning and judging people. There's a lack of humility and love on what they preach. You can speak the truth without condemning people. Is it hard to do that? Heck yea! But the qualms I have with people who stand out on the corner with a sign that says you're all going to hell are not loving Christians, and they leave a bad rap for a lot of Christians by doing that.

There are so few true Christians left in this world that they are nearly non existent. Yes there are billions that claim they are but they live and act their lives in stark contrast to their claims. I know of many non-Christians that enact more Judea-christian values in their lives than most of today's believers. I also see alot of Idol worshiping in Christianity which is supposed to be a no no whether it be praying to saints and Jesus, the use of crosses, the false images of Jesus spattered everywhere. And lets not even start with the hatred and discrimination that alot of them express.

We forget the basic tenants of teachings that basically say love, honor and respect your fellow man and your world around you but most everyone has forgotten that.

Star_Cards
04-28-2011, 02:45 PM
It's probably one of the hardest things to overcome in terms of believing, justifying why a wicked, immoral person who places in faith in Jesus moments before he dies compared to a loving and just person who never professes his faith. I will say this is false though

"I guess as long as you believe and are truly sorry after every immoral act you're good to get into heaven."

Placing your faith in Christ does not allow you to blot out every sinful act you have done. Your heart must change once you profess your faith and if your faith is real, you will seek to have a life that is like Jesus. if you continue to sin and just say, "well I'll confess and I am good to go," that is unacceptable and would not be worthy of a life of Christ. God is not fine with that and is the only one who can judge the heart of each person who confesses their life to Him.

according to what sanfran said... or at least how I read it that's how it works.

Star_Cards
04-28-2011, 02:47 PM
Another problem I have with religious people, not just christians but anyone who claims a particular religion is that a lot of them spend all of their time trying to prove how the next man's religion is wrong and that they are going to hell instead of doing something positive to improve their community, help their brothers and sisters and to glofiry God. Sad to say religion is starting to mirror politics. Alot of lip service but no actions.

Not all christians or religious people do this. Some do but I'd say the majority don't have issue with other religions. They may not agree with it and debate those issues where they differ, but that's what we are doing here and I don't have issue with that.

Wudeverbro
04-28-2011, 02:49 PM
There are so few true Christians left in this world that they are nearly non existent. Yes there are billions that claim they are but they live and act their lives in stark contrast to their claims. I know of many non-Christians that enact more Judea-christian values in their lives than most of today's believers. I also see alot of Idol worshiping in Christianity which is supposed to be a no no whether it be praying to saints and Jesus, the use of crosses, the false images of Jesus spattered everywhere. And lets not even start with the hatred and discrimination that alot of them express.

We forget the basic tenants of teachings that basically say love, honor and respect your fellow man and your world around you but most everyone has forgotten that.

Scary to consider but you could be right. I know I spend too much time here with cards when I should be reading my Bible more. No one said accepting Him was easy but we still push on and try to be the best witnesses we can.

Star_Cards
04-28-2011, 02:49 PM
And oh yes, this god that would reward a murderer who believes with an eternity of bliss but punish a righteous nonbeliever with an eternity of torture, because its only criteria for judgment is whether or not they were in the mood to praise and worship it at the exact moment of their death? Heck of a god you got there, buddy. And if that's your role model, I don't think very highly of that.

exactly.

Wudeverbro
04-28-2011, 02:50 PM
according to what sanfran said... or at least how I read it that's how it works.

Yeah, it's basically just semantics and splitting hairs but just confessing your sins does not necessarily get you into heaven. The heart is what God judges and there's no fooling Him.

gatorboymike
04-28-2011, 02:53 PM
"True Christian" is a meaningless term. Every Christian thinks they are the true one and everyone who isn't exactly like them is the false one. And most of the time when people use that term, what they mean is "someone who is in absolute, complete and total agreement with all of my political views." Well, Bobby goes to church every week, reads his Bible, and has a Jesus fish decal on his SUV, but he has position X on political issue Y, and I have position Z on political issue Y. Bobby is obviously a FALSE CHRISTIAN!

Meanwhile, to nonparticipants in this orgy of exclusionism like me, all I see is a bunch of people standing in a circle, all pointing fingers and hurling accusations at one another, and it's just further evidence that none of them are actually in possession of the supernatural wisdom and goodness that they claim to be the sole possessors of.

Wudeverbro
04-28-2011, 02:56 PM
Only further demonstrating that no creationist understands what evolution is or how it works. And that's by their own choice, to remain willfully ignorant.

And oh yes, this god that would reward a murderer who believes with an eternity of bliss but punish a righteous nonbeliever with an eternity of torture, because its only criteria for judgment is whether or not they were in the mood to praise and worship it at the exact moment of their death? Heck of a god you got there, buddy. And if that's your role model, I don't think very highly of that.

I don't think it's about being willfully ignorant but it's just that most Christians don't believe in what evolution is. Personally, I believe in a lot of it, just not the very early parts of evolution.

just because you do not believe in Christ, does not mean you are willfully ignorant of Christ. it just means you don't believe in Him.

mrveggieman
04-28-2011, 02:56 PM
Not all christians or religious people do this. Some do but I'd say the majority don't have issue with other religions. They may not agree with it and debate those issues where they differ, but that's what we are doing here and I don't have issue with that.

I'm actually glad that we could all have this discussion in a respectful way. I pray that everyone reading this could learn something that they didn't know about others and can get a new found respect. I doubt that anyone will change their religious views because of this discussion but that wasn't the purpose. I do have a problem with hate mongerers pretending to be men of God only to spread racism, anti-semtism, homohobia and intollerance. Thanks God that they haven't participated in this discussion.

Star_Cards
04-28-2011, 03:00 PM
Yeah, it's basically just semantics and splitting hairs but just confessing your sins does not necessarily get you into heaven. The heart is what God judges and there's no fooling Him.

I wasn't talking about just confession... The act of confession is a whole other discussion... lol

I'm saying someone that truly find God as he's sitting in prison for killing, raping, molesting, or doing any other horrible act that productive non believing citizens don't do. How would one worship a god that would accept the murder who found god after all of his horrible acts into heaven but not a non believer who lives his live well?

Wudeverbro
04-28-2011, 03:00 PM
"True Christian" is a meaningless term. Every Christian thinks they are the true one and everyone who isn't exactly like them is the false one. And most of the time when people use that term, what they mean is "someone who is in absolute, complete and total agreement with all of my political views." Well, Bobby goes to church every week, reads his Bible, and has a Jesus fish decal on his SUV, but he has position X on political issue Y, and I have position Z on political issue Y. Bobby is obviously a FALSE CHRISTIAN!

Meanwhile, to nonparticipants in this orgy of exclusionism like me, all I see is a bunch of people standing in a circle, all pointing fingers and hurling accusations at one another, and it's just further evidence that none of them are actually in possession of the supernatural wisdom and goodness that they claim to be the sole possessors of.

It's unfortunate that you feel this way but not all Christians are of the kind that, if you don't believe in exactly what I believe, then you are for certain not a true believer. A lot of times when I read the Word I question what the true meaning is and there really is no way to possess all the "wisdom and goodness" of God. Any Christian who claims this is a false teacher and I would question their beliefs wholeheartedly.

Wudeverbro
04-28-2011, 03:02 PM
I wasn't talking about just confession... The act of confession is a whole other discussion... lol

I'm saying someone that truly find God as he's sitting in prison for killing, raping, molesting, or doing any other horrible act that productive non believing citizens don't do. How would one worship a god that would accept the murder who found god after all of his horrible acts into heaven but not a non believer who lives his live well?

Hard to say. I mean I find it hard to believe that you can be that sincere when you're about to die and want to find eternal bliss. You're basically in a win-win situation so why the heck not and confess right?

Once again it boils down to the heart. If you can be all sincere in your profession of faith in your last breaths, more power to you.

gatorboymike
04-28-2011, 03:03 PM
I don't think it's about being willfully ignorant but it's just that most Christians don't believe in what evolution is. Personally, I believe in a lot of it, just not the very early parts of evolution.

just because you do not believe in Christ, does not mean you are willfully ignorant of Christ. it just means you don't believe in Him.

You're right, there's a difference between not being convinced and being willfully ignorant. I'm aware of the claims made about Christ, I'm just not convinced they are true.

But the vast, vast majority of creationists ARE willfully ignorant, and this is plainly evident by their words. That other guy was saying "where are all the half-human, half-animal fossils?" Like he's expecting us to produce a skeleton of a present-day human's head on a present-day chimp's body. Anyone who actually knows what evolution is or how it works would know that's NOT how it works, no one is looking for any such thing, that is impossible according to our present understanding, and to find it would actually go against the theory. But you try to tell them that and they won't listen. Try to tell them there is no such thing as a chimp with a human head (or in Kirk Cameron's case, a duck with a crocodile head), and they won't listen. They'll say they won't believe in evolution until you can show them that. You say that's not how it works, and there is no such thing. Then they just repeat themselves. You try to tell them to go and actually research evolution, and they'll say they don't have to, because they already know it's wrong...based on nothing but their personal preferences and prejudices. That IS willful ignorance.

mrveggieman
04-28-2011, 03:03 PM
I wasn't talking about just confession... The act of confession is a whole other discussion... lol

I'm saying someone that truly find God as he's sitting in prison for killing, raping, molesting, or doing any other horrible act that productive non believing citizens don't do. How would one worship a god that would accept the murder who found god after all of his horrible acts into heaven but not a non believer who lives his live well?

If I could offer my spin on your question I do believe that God gives second chances if you are sincere about getting your life right. However I disagree when people say that someone who is an overall good person will go to hell because the followed the "wrong" religion. I believe that there will be christians, jews, muslims and a host of others in heaven.

Star_Cards
04-28-2011, 03:03 PM
I'm actually glad that we could all have this discussion in a respectful way. I pray that everyone reading this could learn something that they didn't know about others and can get a new found respect. I doubt that anyone will change their religious views because of this discussion but that wasn't the purpose. I do have a problem with hate mongerers pretending to be men of God only to spread racism, anti-semtism, homohobia and intollerance. Thanks God that they haven't participated in this discussion.

same here. We haven't had a good discussion in the politics/religion board in some time. I'm liking it!!!

Wudeverbro
04-28-2011, 03:06 PM
You're right, there's a difference between not being convinced and being willfully ignorant. I'm aware of the claims made about Christ, I'm just not convinced they are true.

But the vast, vast majority of creationists ARE willfully ignorant, and this is plainly evident by their words. That other guy was saying "where are all the half-human, half-animal fossils?" Like he's expecting us to produce a skeleton of a present-day human's head on a present-day chimp's body. Anyone who actually knows what evolution is or how it works would know that's NOT how it works, no one is looking for any such thing, that is impossible according to our present understanding, and to find it would actually go against the theory. But you try to tell them that and they won't listen. Try to tell them there is no such thing as a chimp with a human head (or in Kirk Cameron's case, a duck with a crocodile head), and they won't listen. They'll say they won't believe in evolution until you can show them that. You say that's not how it works, and there is no such thing. Then they just repeat themselves. You try to tell them to go and actually research evolution, and they'll say they don't have to, because they already know it's wrong...based on nothing but their personal preferences and prejudices. That IS willful ignorance.

True. I can understand the frustration of a Christian who doesn't actively try to understand what evolution really is. If you are quick to not listen, then definitely you're willfully ignorant. it's unfortunate that some are not willing to listen but I can say for myself, I've always been fascinated with it and I do think evolution was incorporated with creation in the beginning. But that's just me.

gatorboymike
04-28-2011, 03:10 PM
Some theists accept evolution but reject abiogenesis. I'm not sure what to think about them.

Wudeverbro
04-28-2011, 03:11 PM
Some theists accept evolution but reject abiogenesis. I'm not sure what to think about them.

I see. What is abiogenesis?

gatorboymike
04-28-2011, 03:17 PM
I see. What is abiogenesis?

Life from non-living materials.

theonedru
04-28-2011, 03:21 PM
Christians have to believe in abiogenesis if they believe in the bible

" And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground " or something to that matter.

sanfran22
04-28-2011, 03:24 PM
Yeah, it's basically just semantics and splitting hairs but just confessing your sins does not necessarily get you into heaven. The heart is what God judges and there's no fooling Him.
WHich is what I said I believe??

Wudeverbro
04-28-2011, 03:25 PM
Christians have to believe in abiogenesis if they believe in the bible

" And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground " or something to that matter.

yep, Gen 2:7.

I need a break. time to find some cards. :boxing:

Wudeverbro
04-28-2011, 03:25 PM
WHich is what I said I believe??

yea probably. sorry I didn't read all the posts.

AUTaxMan
04-28-2011, 03:34 PM
"True Christian" is a meaningless term. Every Christian thinks they are the true one and everyone who isn't exactly like them is the false one. And most of the time when people use that term, what they mean is "someone who is in absolute, complete and total agreement with all of my political views." Well, Bobby goes to church every week, reads his Bible, and has a Jesus fish decal on his SUV, but he has position X on political issue Y, and I have position Z on political issue Y. Bobby is obviously a FALSE CHRISTIAN!

Meanwhile, to nonparticipants in this orgy of exclusionism like me, all I see is a bunch of people standing in a circle, all pointing fingers and hurling accusations at one another, and it's just further evidence that none of them are actually in possession of the supernatural wisdom and goodness that they claim to be the sole possessors of.

Nice to see that you know what every Christian thinks. You could not be more wrong with that statement.

Orgy of exclusionism? It's so sad that you see it that way. I would LOVE for you to be included in the body of believers.

I am saddened to see you jaded by Christianity to the level of animosity. Is there anything I can do to change your perspective? I want you to know what Christianity is all about. You clearly have a lot of misconceptions about it.

gatorboymike
04-28-2011, 04:15 PM
Nice to see that you know what every Christian thinks. You could not be more wrong with that statement.

I know what every Christian thinks as much as Christians know what every atheist thinks, when they accuse me of being arrogant and close-minded, accepting scientific theories with no evidence, believing in nothing, living an empty life, worshipping Satan, worshipping Darwin, worshipping Dawkins, worshipping money, worshipping Obama, worshipping myself, worshipping science, having no morals, supporting the ideals of Stalin, wanting to wipe Christians off the face of the earth, being a homosexual, being a drug addict, being a pervert, being a murderer, secretly agreeing with them but just not admitting it because I just love to sin so much, hating God, thinking I am God, being possessed by a demon, being a demon myself, hating America, being glad 9/11 happened, being personally to blame for 9/11...heck, you name a terrible thing, and I've been accused of it by Christians. I'm just doing unto others as others have done unto me.


Orgy of exclusionism? It's so sad that you see it that way. I would LOVE for you to be included in the body of believers.

I guess you're a step ahead of the people I referenced in the previous paragraph, then. Although I do not think I'd enjoy being in the body of believers. And it seems to me that most self-described Christians do preach a doctrine of exclusion, not a doctrine of inclusion. They want the body of believers to be as small as possible, so they get a bigger piece of the God cake (insert Portal reference here). They do not make a serious attempt to spread the gospel, which goes against scripture, but they don't care. I've seen this plenty of times, preached most especially by street preachers, college campus preachers and Southern Baptist ministers. It's not a message of the path to salvation; it's a message of irrevocable damnation. It's "You're going to the lake of fire and there's nothing you can do about it."


I am saddened to see you jaded by Christianity to the level of animosity. Is there anything I can do to change your perspective? I want you to know what Christianity is all about. You clearly have a lot of misconceptions about it.

I guess you could be not like those people. You could seek them out, and show them how they're wrong. Show them how they are misrepresenting Christianity. And if they refuse to listen, as I suspect they will, show their audience. You know, false preachers and such.

mrveggieman
04-28-2011, 04:29 PM
Speaking of Dawkins I was looking at one of his doccumetaries a while back and he said so that no one would accuse him of making a deathbed conversion he is going to have someone videotape his dying moments. This next question is directed to the atheists but anyone with an opinion can answer. If you are an atheist and are about to die and you believe that once you die that's it, why would you care if someone says that you made a deathbed conversion that you didn't? You are dead and don't believe in anything afterwards so why would it matter. It's not like you believe that you will will be in heaven or hell and can watch someone lie on you. Again this is not a shot at anyone in particular I'm just looking for opinions.

AUTaxMan
04-28-2011, 04:31 PM
I'm just doing unto others as others have done unto me.

Sorry to hear that. It isn't right. Hope you can find it in your heart to rise above that mess.


I guess you're a step ahead of the people I referenced in the previous paragraph, then. Although I do not think I'd enjoy being in the body of believers. And it seems to me that most self-described Christians do preach a doctrine of exclusion, not a doctrine of inclusion. They want the body of believers to be as small as possible, so they get a bigger piece of the God cake (insert Portal reference here). They do not make a serious attempt to spread the gospel, which goes against scripture, but they don't care. I've seen this plenty of times, preached most especially by street preachers, college campus preachers and Southern Baptist ministers. It's not a message of the path to salvation; it's a message of irrevocable damnation. It's "You're going to the lake of fire and there's nothing you can do about it."

I'm sure you have some personal experiences that make you think we are exclusionary, but it is just the opposite. We want the body to be as big as possible. There are certainly your fire and brimstone types out there, but there is so much good about being part of the body of Christ. I welcome you with open arms. Ignore the self-righteous dolts. They are uneducated.



I guess you could be not like those people. You could seek them out, and show them how they're wrong. Show them how they are misrepresenting Christianity. And if they refuse to listen, as I suspect they will, show their audience. You know, false preachers and such.

I'm not like these people, and I would venture to say that most Christians aren't like these people. They are a vocal minority who give us all a bad rap. I'm open any time for a civil discussion on Christianity and the peace and joy it has to offer.

Wudeverbro
04-28-2011, 04:36 PM
Sorry to hear that. It isn't right. Hope you can find it in your heart to rise above that mess.



I'm sure you have some personal experiences that make you think we are exclusionary, but it is just the opposite. We want the body to be as big as possible. There are certainly your fire and brimstone types out there, but there is so much good about being part of the body of Christ. I welcome you with open arms. Ignore the self-righteous dolts. They are uneducated.




I'm not like these people, and I would venture to say that most Christians aren't like these people. They are a vocal minority who give us all a bad rap. I'm open any time for a civil discussion on Christianity and the peace and joy it has to offer.

Well said, bro. I appreciate your ability to articulate God's love in a manner that is not damning and speaks the truth. Hopefully we can show that there are many Christians who are welcoming and willing to explain some misconceptions out there.

karnivore
04-28-2011, 04:48 PM
You're right, there's a difference between not being convinced and being willfully ignorant. I'm aware of the claims made about Christ, I'm just not convinced they are true.

But the vast, vast majority of creationists ARE willfully ignorant, and this is plainly evident by their words. That other guy was saying "where are all the half-human, half-animal fossils?" Like he's expecting us to produce a skeleton of a present-day human's head on a present-day chimp's body. Anyone who actually knows what evolution is or how it works would know that's NOT how it works, no one is looking for any such thing, that is impossible according to our present understanding, and to find it would actually go against the theory. But you try to tell them that and they won't listen. Try to tell them there is no such thing as a chimp with a human head (or in Kirk Cameron's case, a duck with a crocodile head), and they won't listen. They'll say they won't believe in evolution until you can show them that. You say that's not how it works, and there is no such thing. Then they just repeat themselves. You try to tell them to go and actually research evolution, and they'll say they don't have to, because they already know it's wrong...based on nothing but their personal preferences and prejudices. That IS willful ignorance.


Umm if you actually said something about its impossible instead of showing a human head and saying it is a chimp, then we could have talked. But instead the person didnt post their answers diligently. How is it wilfully ignorance when with Evolution theres the chimp to man artistry? That is what I was going by, which is what I meant from the half man/ half animal comment. Im sorry I wasn't clear enough, but it should have been noticed thats the animal I meant by it. I actually have researched about Evolution (not much mind you), like wasn't it all started because of a paragraph in Darwins book? I don't see how its willful ignorance when I came on here to talk about it but noone gives the answer until now that its not possible.

So tell me why its impossible.

gatorboymike
04-28-2011, 04:57 PM
Because humans didn't evolve from present-day chimps. Humans and present-day chimps both evolved from a common ancestor.

Darwin wasn't the first person to propose the idea that all life stems from a common ancestor. He was just the guy who proposed the theory on how it happened which is accepted today. That's pretty much what his entire book was about.

tutall
04-28-2011, 10:22 PM
Wow - you guys sure do post a lot during the days.... To catch up a little...


sure it's not an instant jump from single celled evolution to man, but it is a show of a fairly extensive evolution between the races due to areas of the world in which they lived. It's not just skin color and languages. The different races have many more differences than just that. There are different facial features, body types/sizes, and more. My point is simply even if you believe that god placed all of these people that descended from the same mother and father around the world in different climates, they ended up looking very different by the different places they lived over time. Not just had darker or lighter skin due to the area in which he placed them. Although I guess if you want to say that god also changes their looks as he "moved" these people around I have no defense to that.

I do believe in survival of the fittest... In some African countries food is scarce as is water. A smaller body type is pretty likely to ensue... In China they have a much different diet than what someone in America has. It is only common sense that they would appear differently.... You can even see it some in America. YOu can tell someone from the midwest most of the time over someone from New York. You live in Indiana... close to Indy if I remember correct and the difference just from Indy to where I am in up the NE corner is pretty clear.


Another good question about the creation of the bible... If the bible was in fact written by god or by man directly through god, then what about translation. The original wasn't written in english so who's to say it's all been translated correctly.

I would be willing to guess there are and always have been enough people following christianity to say it has been translated correctly. It isnt like there was one person who knew hebrew and mandarin and he was the only person that knew both, and he translated it by himself and everyone believed him. Sorry Mark - Not trying to demolish your points... just you seem to be the only one here who can have a rational conversation about this....


It would be nice if we did. However just like in the United States we have the constitution which is the law of the land that governs the people, the gov't has secrets the common man will never have access to. The average man may have access to a bible but not any of the church's secrets.

I completely disagree with this... I go to a church of nearly 600 and anyone who ever wants to can attend any board meeting, any church members meeting, anything they want too... If you are referring to the secret society churches or the cults within the churches that is completely different that christianity... The nice thing though about christianity... I dont need a church for anything... I need a personal relationship with Jesus and that is it. Honestly I rarely go to church anymore because I am not a fan of being judged. Most people at the church I attend look at me differently because of the background I come from but honestly....I dont need any of that. It is me and him... Thats it....


[quote=karnivore;9702236]

I agree that all humans have sin in them and are faced with temptation every day but it's just a little to much for my liking to follow a man like Fallwell who spewed as much racism, bigotry, and homophobia as he did when he was alive. He had 0 credibility with me as a christian leader.

Calling him a christian leader is a bit of a stretch... he is the leader of a specific sect of christians.... He is not my leader nor do i agree with much of anything that comes out of his mouth...


There are so few true Christians left in this world that they are nearly non existent. Yes there are billions that claim they are but they live and act their lives in stark contrast to their claims. I know of many non-Christians that enact more Judea-christian values in their lives than most of today's believers. I also see alot of Idol worshiping in Christianity which is supposed to be a no no whether it be praying to saints and Jesus, the use of crosses, the false images of Jesus spattered everywhere. And lets not even start with the hatred and discrimination that alot of them express.

We forget the basic tenants of teachings that basically say love, honor and respect your fellow man and your world around you but most everyone has forgotten that.

Not going to necessarily go "most" with you but a large group of christians I would agree with you on.... Thefunny thing is i remember a discussion we had quite some time ago and you defended muslims as not all terrorists and violent people... The ironic part is you are willing to group all christians because a few have wronged you yet not a religion who crashed planes into our twin towers. I am in no way saying Islam is false, wrong, violent, anything like that... Just ironic you step up and defend them but group "most" christians together. You mention crosses and depicting jesus as worshipping idols but I would say they are worshipping what it stands for as opposed to the actual object


I wasn't talking about just confession... The act of confession is a whole other discussion... lol

I'm saying someone that truly find God as he's sitting in prison for killing, raping, molesting, or doing any other horrible act that productive non believing citizens don't do. How would one worship a god that would accept the murder who found god after all of his horrible acts into heaven but not a non believer who lives his live well?

It is because he has accepted god.... A murderer while sitting in jail honestly finds christ, repents his sins, accepts jesus into his heart and is forgiven. In the bible Jesus is asked how many times we should forgive someone and he replies 7 times 70... Im not saying I practice thisone every time but according to the Bible we should be very forgiving.


You're right, there's a difference between not being convinced and being willfully ignorant. I'm aware of the claims made about Christ, I'm just not convinced they are true.

But the vast, vast majority of creationists ARE willfully ignorant, and this is plainly evident by their words. That other guy was saying "where are all the half-human, half-animal fossils?" Like he's expecting us to produce a skeleton of a present-day human's head on a present-day chimp's body. Anyone who actually knows what evolution is or how it works would know that's NOT how it works, no one is looking for any such thing, that is impossible according to our present understanding, and to find it would actually go against the theory. But you try to tell them that and they won't listen. Try to tell them there is no such thing as a chimp with a human head (or in Kirk Cameron's case, a duck with a crocodile head), and they won't listen. They'll say they won't believe in evolution until you can show them that. You say that's not how it works, and there is no such thing. Then they just repeat themselves. You try to tell them to go and actually research evolution, and they'll say they don't have to, because they already know it's wrong...based on nothing but their personal preferences and prejudices. That IS willful ignorance.

Again, I do not have an issue with some evolution and can obviously see parts of it happening all around. I believe in survival of the fittest... Take the shark for instance (and by the way.... Shark Week starts here in a couple weeks i believe) They have been able to adapt to their surroundings and live for (hundreds? thousands? millions?) of years by being able to fit in to surroundings.


I know what every Christian thinks as much as Christians know what every atheist thinks, when they accuse me of being arrogant and close-minded, accepting scientific theories with no evidence, believing in nothing, living an empty life, worshipping Satan, worshipping Darwin, worshipping Dawkins, worshipping money, worshipping Obama, worshipping myself, worshipping science, having no morals, supporting the ideals of Stalin, wanting to wipe Christians off the face of the earth, being a homosexual, being a drug addict, being a pervert, being a murderer, secretly agreeing with them but just not admitting it because I just love to sin so much, hating God, thinking I am God, being possessed by a demon, being a demon myself, hating America, being glad 9/11 happened, being personally to blame for 9/11...heck, you name a terrible thing, and I've been accused of it by Christians. I'm just doing unto others as others have done unto me.



I guess you're a step ahead of the people I referenced in the previous paragraph, then. Although I do not think I'd enjoy being in the body of believers. And it seems to me that most self-described Christians do preach a doctrine of exclusion, not a doctrine of inclusion. They want the body of believers to be as small as possible, so they get a bigger piece of the God cake (insert Portal reference here). They do not make a serious attempt to spread the gospel, which goes against scripture, but they don't care. I've seen this plenty of times, preached most especially by street preachers, college campus preachers and Southern Baptist ministers. It's not a message of the path to salvation; it's a message of irrevocable damnation. It's "You're going to the lake of fire and there's nothing you can do about it."



I guess you could be not like those people. You could seek them out, and show them how they're wrong. Show them how they are misrepresenting Christianity. And if they refuse to listen, as I suspect they will, show their audience. You know, false preachers and such.



Again... This is my biggest problem with your posts... you include everyone in there because you have had a few people single you out or whatever has happened... You know, I have had all those things happen to me too... I have had them happen at church... At school, while playing basketball, at work, in meetings, everywhere... It sucks that it happened to you at school but it also isnt fair to everyone else you put everyone in one catergory and say screw you all.... Ihave had non-believers say some pretty awful stuff as well but I also realize 95 percent of people I meet regardless of religious orientation are decent people. Sorry the other 5 percent ruined it for you but just as it isnt fair to lump you as a non believer into a certain catergory of obama loving, stalin loving, homosexual, Darwin, Dawkins, and money loving it isnt fair for you to lump me in with the people who may have said those to you. I am far from a southern Baptist minister but I can tell you if they are truly saying the things you claim they are no where near the same religion I am....


Because humans didn't evolve from present-day chimps. Humans and present-day chimps both evolved from a common ancestor.

Darwin wasn't the first person to propose the idea that all life stems from a common ancestor. He was just the guy who proposed the theory on how it happened which is accepted today. That's pretty much what his entire book was about.

My problem with this is we have never found a solid link... At some time Chimps and Man had to split... We have found to my understanding what they believe may be a cheek bone and maybe an ear bone (I apologize, I did not look at the link earlier and no cannot find it) but I find it hard to believe we have found thousands of Dinosaur bones which were from thousands of years earlier (supposedly) and bones from animals as small as a rat yet we cannot find more than a couple bones that make the link from the Human/Chimp connection. I am not saying it couldnt have happened I am just saying it is weird they havent found a whole skeleton or something with a large enough connection we could pretty certainly depict what it was....

Star_Cards
04-29-2011, 08:29 AM
I would be willing to guess there are and always have been enough people following christianity to say it has been translated correctly. It isnt like there was one person who knew hebrew and mandarin and he was the only person that knew both, and he translated it by himself and everyone believed him. Sorry Mark - Not trying to demolish your points... just you seem to be the only one here who can have a rational conversation about this....


No need to be sorry. My questions are in fact questions to see what people think... not the typical question to draw out an answer and then attack it. Although if I disagree it shall be known. lol

habsheaven
04-29-2011, 09:07 AM
My problem with this is we have never found a solid link... At some time Chimps and Man had to split... We have found to my understanding what they believe may be a cheek bone and maybe an ear bone (I apologize, I did not look at the link earlier and no cannot find it) but I find it hard to believe we have found thousands of Dinosaur bones which were from thousands of years earlier (supposedly) and bones from animals as small as a rat yet we cannot find more than a couple bones that make the link from the Human/Chimp connection. I am not saying it couldnt have happened I am just saying it is weird they havent found a whole skeleton or something with a large enough connection we could pretty certainly depict what it was....

I should probably let GBM address this but I will express my thoughts on it anyway.

You are comparing apples to oranges here. The ability to find thousands of dinosaur bones of different species from a similar time is not the same as establishing a progression of man over the milleniums. The amount of skulls they have found and dated clearly show a progression of a similar species, just because they have not been able to establish an unbroken link early on may speak to the abundance (or lack thereof) of the species in the era in question.

theonedru
04-29-2011, 12:12 PM
Not going to necessarily go "most" with you but a large group of christians I would agree with you on.... Thefunny thing is i remember a discussion we had quite some time ago and you defended muslims as not all terrorists and violent people... The ironic part is you are willing to group all christians because a few have wronged you yet not a religion who crashed planes into our twin towers. I am in no way saying Islam is false, wrong, violent, anything like that... Just ironic you step up and defend them but group "most" christians together. You mention crosses and depicting jesus as worshipping idols but I would say they are worshipping what it stands for as opposed to the actual object

The biggest difference in this aspect is that most Christians do not practice what they preach, we see it everywhere and its funny you bring up Islam because its a truer religion that Christianity could ever be as they worship God and only God, yes they have prophets and they consider Jesus a prophet, a man like Muhammad, a great and wise man but just a man. In Christianity Jesus is worshiped and revered as much as God himself and the practices of Catholics is hideous praying to saints and such. And the false face of Jesus yo see everywhere that people pray to for guidance and such that is IDOLISM which breaks one of the 10 commandments. These are reasons why I can Closely compare the majority of Christians together because although they think they are doing good to their God they really are not, not saying they do this on purpose they have just been misguided and misdirected.

Wudeverbro
04-29-2011, 12:27 PM
The biggest difference in this aspect is that most Christians do not practice what they preach, we see it everywhere and its funny you bring up Islam because its a truer religion that Christianity could ever be as they worship God and only God, yes they have prophets and they consider Jesus a prophet, a man like Muhammad, a great and wise man but just a man. In Christianity Jesus is worshiped and revered as much as God himself and the practices of Catholics is hideous praying to saints and such. And the false face of Jesus yo see everywhere that people pray to for guidance and such that is IDOLISM which breaks one of the 10 commandments. These are reasons why I can Closely compare the majority of Christians together because although they think they are doing good to their God they really are not, not saying they do this on purpose they have just been misguided and misdirected.

I'm not sure you understand the symbols that are within the church. The way you are explaining it makes it seem like Christians are worshiping an object which is entirely false. A cross, statue of Jesus, or a crucifix are just symbols. In the catholic church, sure, there are saints that are worshiped but not in the Protestant church. Christianity has a lot of misconceptions because there are different divisions and the doctrine can be very different. Because of the difference in doctrine, there will be a lot of inconsistencies observed by people outside the church, and I certainly can't blame them for that. But I don't know believe you can say "I can closely compare a majority of christians together" because of supposed idol worship in that manner. The biggest problem in the church today IMO in terms of idol worship is materialism.

And yes Jesus is revered as highly as God because they form part of the Holy Trinity with the Holy Spirit. They are all equal, different, but the same being. Don't ask me to concisely explain that though because I would probably do a horrible job at it. :smash:

theonedru
04-29-2011, 12:40 PM
I'm not sure you understand the symbols that are within the church. The way you are explaining it makes it seem like Christians are worshiping an object which is entirely false. A cross, statue of Jesus, or a crucifix are just symbols. In the catholic church, sure, there are saints that are worshiped but not in the Protestant church. Christianity has a lot of misconceptions because there are different divisions and the doctrine can be very different. Because of the difference in doctrine, there will be a lot of inconsistencies observed by people outside the church, and I certainly can't blame them for that. But I don't know believe you can say "I can closely compare a majority of christians together" because of supposed idol worship in that manner. The biggest problem in the church today IMO in terms of idol worship is materialism.

And yes Jesus is revered as highly as God because they form part of the Holy Trinity with the Holy Spirit. They are all equal, different, but the same being. Don't ask me to concisely explain that though because I would probably do a horrible job at it. :smash:

They kneel before them and use them to incite prayer, you call the figure of Jesus on a cross, but call it as it is its an IDOL esp since its not even the real face of Jesus. And Jesus is not God cannot be God and as such the worship of him is a false worship, remember the bible "there shall be no other god but me" well that says it all No Jesus, no crosses no saints nothing to that matter but God.

mrveggieman
04-29-2011, 12:51 PM
Not going to necessarily go "most" with you but a large group of christians I would agree with you on.... Thefunny thing is i remember a discussion we had quite some time ago and you defended muslims as not all terrorists and violent people... The ironic part is you are willing to group all christians because a few have wronged you yet not a religion who crashed planes into our twin towers. I am in no way saying Islam is false, wrong, violent, anything like that... Just ironic you step up and defend them but group "most" christians together. You mention crosses and depicting jesus as worshipping idols but I would say they are worshipping what it stands for as opposed to the actual object

The biggest difference in this aspect is that most Christians do not practice what they preach, we see it everywhere and its funny you bring up Islam because its a truer religion that Christianity could ever be as they worship God and only God, yes they have prophets and they consider Jesus a prophet, a man like Muhammad, a great and wise man but just a man. In Christianity Jesus is worshiped and revered as much as God himself and the practices of Catholics is hideous praying to saints and such. And the false face of Jesus yo see everywhere that people pray to for guidance and such that is IDOLISM which breaks one of the 10 commandments. These are reasons why I can Closely compare the majority of Christians together because although they think they are doing good to their God they really are not, not saying they do this on purpose they have just been misguided and misdirected.


Some muslims such as Osama bin Laden and John Allen Muhammad are poor representatives of Islam just like some christians like Jerry Fallwell or Terry Jones are poor representatives of Christanity. Both Christianity and Islam teach peace and love towards your brothers and sisters but because of the actions of a vocal minority of fringe fanitics their respective religions are given a black eye. The average muslim is no more likely to be a terrorist just like the average christian is no more likely to be a child rapist. People need to stand up and reclaim their religion back from fanatics who hijack it for their own sinister agenda.

Wudeverbro
04-29-2011, 12:55 PM
They kneel before them and use them to incite prayer, you call the figure of Jesus on a cross, but call it as it is its an IDOL esp since its not even the real face of Jesus. And Jesus is not God cannot be God and as such the worship of him is a false worship, remember the bible "there shall be no other god but me" well that says it all No Jesus, no crosses no saints nothing to that matter but God.

"There shall be no other God but me," but they are all the same being. I don't expect you to understand that though. The Trinity is hard for any Christian to explain, let alone any nonbeliever.

I think you are taking too literally the symbols that are in the church. Catholics pray to ™™™™™™ Mary, and that would be considered idol worship. Praying in front of statue of Jesus is not idol worshiping. It's impossible to actually pray to the real face of Jesus, so in essence you're saying, people should be praying at all because it's all idol worship.

Star_Cards
04-29-2011, 12:56 PM
good points about not generalizing everyone in a group by some of the group.

mrveggieman
04-29-2011, 12:59 PM
No one knows what Jesus really looks like. We are only going by an artist drawing of him. The one thing that Islam has over Christanity is that it is forbidden to draw pictures of the prophets. Therefore there is no arguing over what color jesus is. We all know that is a big argument in some Christian churches.

Wudeverbro
04-29-2011, 01:03 PM
I'll be the first to tell anyone who questions Christianity that there are a lot of "Christians" who are the biggest hypocrites. But take what you hear with a grain of salt. It's like what some have said already- just because a Muslim believes in killing infidels and exercising holy war doesn't mean that all Muslim's are this way. Don't let religious extremists be the only voice that you hear and allow that to be the generalized belief of that religion. It takes many voices and reasoning to build facts for people but it just takes one nut job to ruin it all and be the negative connotation for an entire group.

mrveggieman
04-29-2011, 01:07 PM
I'll be the first to tell anyone who questions Christianity that there are a lot of "Christians" who are the biggest hypocrites. But take what you hear with a grain of salt. It's like what some have said already- just because a Muslim believes in killing infidels and exercising holy war doesn't mean that all Muslim's are this way. Don't let religious extremists be the only voice that you hear and allow that to be the generalized belief of that religion. It takes many voices and reasoning to build facts for people but it just takes one nut job to ruin it all and be the negative connotation for an entire group.


Preach it brother!!

mrveggieman
04-29-2011, 01:26 PM
Another thing that I noticed about people is that someone could be homephobic about religion just like they are about homosexuals. For example a person who goes around beating up homosexuals could really be someone who is repressed and is uncomfortable about their own sexuality. It is the same for religion. Someone who spends every waking moment trying to tear down someone elses religion is really insecure in their own religion and needs to make themself feel better by going after someone else.

theonedru
04-29-2011, 01:34 PM
"There shall be no other God but me," but they are all the same being. I don't expect you to understand that though. The Trinity is hard for any Christian to explain, let alone any nonbeliever.

I think you are taking too literally the symbols that are in the church. Catholics pray to ™™™™™™ Mary, and that would be considered idol worship. Praying in front of statue of Jesus is not idol worshiping. It's impossible to actually pray to the real face of Jesus, so in essence you're saying, people should be praying at all because it's all idol worship.

Never did i say i want an unbeliever I just see the the difference between faith and religion, religion dictates what they want us to do and see whether it be wright or wrong, faith guides us in doing what we know to be right or wrong. and praying to the face of what is perceived to be Jesus is Idolism how can it not be. and the whole god and Jesus and the holy ghost is one in the same thing is totally unfathomable as well for if god and Jesus are one in the same then there was no real sacrificing of himself and thus putting into question the whole concept of what has become Easter, giving power to the fact that it was invented by the church to take away from pagan ceremonies. People should pray, just not to a cross of fake pictures of Jesus, prayer should be between you and god plain and simple.

theonedru
04-29-2011, 01:37 PM
Some muslims such as Osama bin Laden and John Allen Muhammad are poor representatives of Islam just like some christians like Jerry Fallwell or Terry Jones are poor representatives of Christanity. Both Christianity and Islam teach peace and love towards your brothers and sisters but because of the actions of a vocal minority of fringe fanitics their respective religions are given a black eye. The average muslim is no more likely to be a terrorist just like the average christian is no more likely to be a child rapist. People need to stand up and reclaim their religion back from fanatics who hijack it for their own sinister agenda.

We had a thread about this awhile back and I mentioned the whole peace and love thing and someone else mentioned that the teachings of peace and love towards your brothers and sisters is the basics of pretty much all religions, yet it is the most widely ignored preaching. But anyways great post

mrveggieman
04-29-2011, 01:49 PM
Never did i say i want an unbeliever I just see the the difference between faith and religion, religion dictates what they want us to do and see whether it be wright or wrong, faith guides us in doing what we know to be right or wrong. and praying to the face of what is perceived to be Jesus is Idolism how can it not be. and the whole god and Jesus and the holy ghost is one in the same thing is totally unfathomable as well for if god and Jesus are one in the same then there was no real sacrificing of himself and thus putting into question the whole concept of what has become Easter, giving power to the fact that it was invented by the church to take away from pagan ceremonies. People should pray, just not to a cross of fake pictures of Jesus, prayer should be between you and god plain and simple.


Also everyone's favorite holiday christmas is celebrated on Dec 25 but if you do your historical research you will find that Jesus was likely born in the spring. Dec 25 was the celebrated birthday of a Pagan sun god mirthra. Also Jermiah 10 verses 2-6 prohibit putting up a christmas tree:
2 Thus says the Lord:
“Learn not the way of the nations,
nor be dismayed at the signs of the heavens
because the nations are dismayed at them,
3 for the customs of the peoples are vanity. [1] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?passage=Jeremiah+10%3A2-6#f1)
A tree from the forest is cut down
and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman.
4 They decorate it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so that it cannot move.
5 Their idols [2] (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?passage=Jeremiah+10%3A2-6#f2) are like scarecrows in a cucumber field,
and they cannot speak;
they have to be carried,
for they cannot walk.
Do not be afraid of them,
for they cannot do evil,
neither is it in them to do good.”
6 There is none like you, O Lord;
you are great, and your name is great in might.

Star_Cards
04-29-2011, 01:50 PM
Another thing that I noticed about people is that someone could be homephobic about religion just like they are about homosexuals. For example a person who goes around beating up homosexuals could really be someone who is repressed and is uncomfortable about their own sexuality. It is the same for religion. Someone who spends every waking moment trying to tear down someone elses religion is really insecure in their own religion and needs to make themself feel better by going after someone else.

sure, people can be phobic of anything.

Wudeverbro
04-29-2011, 01:52 PM
Never did i say i want an unbeliever I just see the the difference between faith and religion, religion dictates what they want us to do and see whether it be wright or wrong, faith guides us in doing what we know to be right or wrong. and praying to the face of what is perceived to be Jesus is Idolism how can it not be. and the whole god and Jesus and the holy ghost is one in the same thing is totally unfathomable as well for if god and Jesus are one in the same then there was no real sacrificing of himself and thus putting into question the whole concept of what has become Easter, giving power to the fact that it was invented by the church to take away from pagan ceremonies. People should pray, just not to a cross of fake pictures of Jesus, prayer should be between you and god plain and simple.

I wholeheartedly disagree that there was no real sacrifice. Jesus is the human form of God and he submitted himself to be like man and endure any temptation man would experience. Jesus had ample opportunities to submit to his own desires but he willing gave Himself up.

It's hard to explain the Trinity and really, you either believe it or you don't. But if you feel like reading about it, here are some passages:



There is only one God ( Rom 3:30 (http://www.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=English&version=RSV&search=&passage=Rom+3:30), etc.)
The Father is God ( 1 Cor 8:6 (http://www.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=English&version=RSV&search=&passage=1+Cor+8:6), etc.)
Jesus is God ( John 1:1 (http://www.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=English&version=RSV&search=&passage=John+1:1), etc.)
The Holy Spirit is God ( 1 Cor 6:19 (http://www.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=English&version=RSV&search=&passage=1+Cor+6:19), etc.)
3 in 1 (Matthew 28:19)

gatorboymike
04-29-2011, 02:28 PM
I wholeheartedly disagree that there was no real sacrifice. Jesus is the human form of God and he submitted himself to be like man and endure any temptation man would experience. Jesus had ample opportunities to submit to his own desires but he willing gave Himself up.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you. First, the sacrifice thing. What exactly did Jesus supposedly sacrifice? His dignity? Boo-freakin-hoo. His human body? Well, if he was God, he could just make himself another one. In fact, he could create as many human bodies as he pleased and just keep dying and coming back forever. Second, according to the story, he did not suffer the same punishment you or I would suffer, and therefore he can in no way be said to have taken our punishment for us. Supposedly he went to you-know-where for three days, then he was yanked out of there and got to be a god. But if you or I went to you-know-where, we would, according to Christian doctrine, be stuck there FOREVER. Third, if Jesus was God, then he could not possibly be tempted, by definition. Doctrine says that God is perfect and therefore God never sins. If Jesus is God, then he never sins either, and any attempts to make him sin would be automatically doomed to fail, no matter what, and therefore there could be no temptation. Unless you assert that he can somehow shrug off his God nature, and that he did so specifically for the purpose of being tempted. And I don't think you have a scriptural basis for asserting that.


It's hard to explain the Trinity and really, you either believe it or you don't. But if you feel like reading about it, here are some passages:

The trinity can't be explained. It's a piece of theological tomfoolery invented in the 4th century in order to glue otherwise-irreconcilable bits of dogma together. No matter what apologetics, excuses, rationalizations, manipulations, prevarications, whines, wheedles, threats, diversions, fallacies, emotional blackmail or unscrupulous mendacities you may utter, you can't make 3 equal 1. Nothing can be A and not-A at the same time.

Wudeverbro
04-29-2011, 02:35 PM
I wholeheartedly disagree with you. First, the sacrifice thing. What exactly did Jesus supposedly sacrifice? His dignity? Boo-freakin-hoo. His human body? Well, if he was God, he could just make himself another one. In fact, he could create as many human bodies as he pleased and just keep dying and coming back forever. Second, according to the story, he did not suffer the same punishment you or I would suffer, and therefore he can in no way be said to have taken our punishment for us. Supposedly he went to you-know-where for three days, then he was yanked out of there and got to be a god. But if you or I went to you-know-where, we would, according to Christian doctrine, be stuck there FOREVER. Third, if Jesus was God, then he could not possibly be tempted, by definition. Doctrine says that God is perfect and therefore God never sins. If Jesus is God, then he never sins either, and any attempts to make him sin would be automatically doomed to fail, no matter what, and therefore there could be no temptation. Unless you assert that he can somehow shrug off his God nature, and that he did so specifically for the purpose of being tempted. And I don't think you have a scriptural basis for asserting that.



The trinity can't be explained. It's a piece of theological tomfoolery invented in the 4th century in order to glue otherwise-irreconcilable bits of dogma together. No matter what apologetics, excuses, rationalizations, manipulations, prevarications, whines, wheedles, threats, diversions, fallacies, emotional blackmail or unscrupulous mendacities you may utter, you can't make 3 equal 1. Nothing can be A and not-A at the same time.

I won't choose to engage in a battle of words with you on this. I don't proclaim myself as the best witness for Christ nor do I articulate it the best, but I still believe it and I do the best I can. I respect your opinion that you don't buy the Bible but to call what I believe in "tomfoolery" is a bit disrespectful on your part. I'm just trying to have a level headed conversation here and in no way did I call evolution/abiogenesis tomfoolery or fiction.

mrveggieman
04-29-2011, 02:43 PM
Let me jump in with my spin on holy books as well as religion as a whole. God/Allah/Jehova or whatever you chose to call him is a all knowing perfect entity. That is what anyone with a religious backround believes. However religion including holy books are not perfect. I believe the reason why there are different religions and holy books and obvious contridictions in them is not an accident. I believe that God set it up that way not for confusion (For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 1 Corinthians 14:33) but that is they only way we as sinful mortals can relate. If God put out one perfect religion with a perfect holy book that would be beyond the realm of our understanding and therefore be completely useless to us. Therefore he speaks to us in a manner that we can relate to and understand.

gatorboymike
04-29-2011, 02:44 PM
Well, I respect your right to believe whatever you want. But I have no obligation to respect the beliefs themselves. The difference between evolution and trinitarian doctrine is that I can show you the material evidence for evolution. Trinitarian doctrine only has the greasy words of ancient propagandists and the willingness of desperate dogmatists to accept the incomprehensible to support it. Sorry if that offends you, but it's still true, and that's why I accept the former and not the latter.

gatorboymike
04-29-2011, 02:49 PM
If God put out one perfect religion with a perfect holy book that would be beyond the realm of our understanding and therefore be completely useless to us. Therefore he speaks to us in a manner that we can relate to and understand.

Problem is, most believers, no matter what religion they are, assert that that's exactly what they do have, and if you can't understand it, that's because you're just too evil and stupid and imperceptive and so on. And of course, none of them agree with one another. Surely if we're dealing with an all-powerful being, it could have created us in such a manner that we would be able to understand its nature and its desires clearly and perfectly, all of us, everywhere, all the time. And surely if it loved us and would judge us by how well we followed its instructions, it would do exactly that. You must contend that the way things are set up now, most people are NOT relating to and understanding the way he supposedly speaks to us.

mrveggieman
04-29-2011, 03:05 PM
Problem is, most believers, no matter what religion they are, assert that that's exactly what they do have, and if you can't understand it, that's because you're just too evil and stupid and imperceptive and so on. And of course, none of them agree with one another. Surely if we're dealing with an all-powerful being, it could have created us in such a manner that we would be able to understand its nature and its desires clearly and perfectly, all of us, everywhere, all the time. And surely if it loved us and would judge us by how well we followed its instructions, it would do exactly that. You must contend that the way things are set up now, most people are NOT relating to and understanding the way he supposedly speaks to us.

Some relate to and follow his instructions most don't. However I think that most of us weather intentional or not are following a his instructions. Most religions have basic common sense rules. Such as loving and respecting your neighboor, honoring obeying your parents, prohibitions against killing, stealing, drug use, etc. The part were we as humans get it twisted on is who exactly is god, his prophets and what there roles are. Jesus is the perfect example is he a God or God like or just a prophet? Basically God did not for whatever reason want us to know exactly who he is. That is why he allowed different and slightly conflicting holy books eg the Bible and Quron. It's like the old saying some people like lobster, some like steak (me I'm a vegetarian :sign0020:) but we all like to eat.

gatorboymike
04-29-2011, 03:18 PM
Thing is, there's nobody out there who wants to murder you, subvert your government, brainwash your kids and/or breed your culture out of existence because you like lobster and they like steak.

spuds1961
04-29-2011, 03:19 PM
Always an interesting read when I'm bored,thanks guys.

theonedru
04-29-2011, 03:24 PM
I wholeheartedly disagree with you. First, the sacrifice thing. What exactly did Jesus supposedly sacrifice? His dignity? Boo-freakin-hoo. His human body? Well, if he was God, he could just make himself another one. In fact, he could create as many human bodies as he pleased and just keep dying and coming back forever. Second, according to the story, he did not suffer the same punishment you or I would suffer, and therefore he can in no way be said to have taken our punishment for us. Supposedly he went to you-know-where for three days, then he was yanked out of there and got to be a god. But if you or I went to you-know-where, we would, according to Christian doctrine, be stuck there FOREVER. Third, if Jesus was God, then he could not possibly be tempted, by definition. Doctrine says that God is perfect and therefore God never sins. If Jesus is God, then he never sins either, and any attempts to make him sin would be automatically doomed to fail, no matter what, and therefore there could be no temptation. Unless you assert that he can somehow shrug off his God nature, and that he did so specifically for the purpose of being tempted. And I don't think you have a scriptural basis for asserting that.



The trinity can't be explained. It's a piece of theological tomfoolery invented in the 4th century in order to glue otherwise-irreconcilable bits of dogma together. No matter what apologetics, excuses, rationalizations, manipulations, prevarications, whines, wheedles, threats, diversions, fallacies, emotional blackmail or unscrupulous mendacities you may utter, you can't make 3 equal 1. Nothing can be A and not-A at the same time.

One of the rare deals where I agree with you. Lets hope your agreeable logic doesnt become habitual as I may have to start respecting you a little more :winking0071: .

theonedru
04-29-2011, 03:26 PM
Thing is, there's nobody out there who wants to murder you, subvert your government, brainwash your kids and/or breed your culture out of existence because you like lobster and they like steak.

Actually if I am correct according to the bible eating shellfish will result in damnation, along with wearing a poly-cotton blended fabric so in a way there are soem out there who would like you out of existance for eating lobster. :boxing:

mrveggieman
04-29-2011, 03:27 PM
Thing is, there's nobody out there who wants to murder you, subvert your government, brainwash your kids and/or breed your culture out of existence because you like lobster and they like steak.
:sign0020:

Also here's another question I want to post to the group. Everyone has a different day of worship. I'm interested in getting the reader's explanation on what the correct day of worship is and why. You can quote history, scriptures or whatever you like.

gatorboymike
04-29-2011, 03:28 PM
Actually if I am correct according to the bible eating shellfish will result in damnation, along with wearing a poly-cotton blended fabric so in a way there are soem out there who would like you out of existance for eating lobster. :boxing:

I always bring those up to homophobic Christians. Apparently the Bible switches between literal and metaphorical, and/or contemporary and permanent, on a sentence-by-sentence basis.

mrveggieman
04-29-2011, 04:29 PM
I always bring those up to homophobic Christians. Apparently the Bible switches between literal and metaphorical, and/or contemporary and permanent, on a sentence-by-sentence basis.


Or even on a word by word basis :sign0020:. No but seriously that goes back to my point of it being intentionally designed to be that way. God has so much knowledge if he shared just 00000000000000.1% of it with us we would not be able to comprehend it. Therefore he allowed us to have books like the bible, koran, the book of the dead to give us just a little glimpse inside of his head.

*censored*
04-29-2011, 04:48 PM
I refuse to believe Jesus was the son of God until I see the long-form birth certificate. And it must be appropriately laminated and notarized by the officials of Bethlehem.

theonedru
04-29-2011, 06:10 PM
I refuse to believe Jesus was the son of God until I see the long-form birth certificate. And it must be appropriately laminated and notarized by the officials of Bethlehem.

Drew man this post made my day, bravo.

habsheaven
04-29-2011, 06:12 PM
lmao, too too funny

mrveggieman
04-29-2011, 06:47 PM
I refuse to believe Jesus was the son of God until I see the long-form birth certificate. And it must be appropriately laminated and notarized by the officials of Bethlehem.


I shouldn't be laughing but that was funny. :sign0020:

AUTaxMan
04-29-2011, 11:50 PM
Well, I respect your right to believe whatever you want. But I have no obligation to respect the beliefs themselves. The difference between evolution and trinitarian doctrine is that I can show you the material evidence for evolution. Trinitarian doctrine only has the greasy words of ancient propagandists and the willingness of desperate dogmatists to accept the incomprehensible to support it. Sorry if that offends you, but it's still true, and that's why I accept the former and not the latter.

This is untrue and it is very insulting. I respect the fact that you do not believe what I believe, but I will not insult you for it. I expect the same level of respect from you. Otherwise, this will be my last post in this thread. I thought we were going for civil discussion here, not vitriol. You are clearly here not to learn or try to understand what we believe, only to ridicule and make fun of it.

mrveggieman
04-30-2011, 12:13 PM
This is untrue and it is very insulting. I respect the fact that you do not believe what I believe, but I will not insult you for it. I expect the same level of respect from you. Otherwise, this will be my last post in this thread. I thought we were going for civil discussion here, not vitriol. You are clearly here not to learn or try to understand what we believe, only to ridicule and make fun of it.

I don't know Gatorboymike on a personal level but I don't think that he was personally trying to insult anyone's beliefs. There are people on both sides of the spectrum who made statements that I personally didn't agree with but there weren't attacking me they were just speaking their mind. This is a conversation for mature adults and there will be things said that people don't agree with but I really don't think that anyone is on here to personally offend anyone. :kiss:

AUTaxMan
04-30-2011, 12:49 PM
I don't know Gatorboymike on a personal level but I don't think that he was personally trying to insult anyone's beliefs. There are people on both sides of the spectrum who made statements that I personally didn't agree with but there weren't attacking me they were just speaking their mind. This is a conversation for mature adults and there will be things said that people don't agree with but I really don't think that anyone is on here to personally offend anyone. :kiss:

Not personally trying to insult anyone's beliefs? He basically said "No offense, but you're an idiot for believing what you do. No offense though."

mrveggieman
04-30-2011, 12:57 PM
Not personally trying to insult anyone's beliefs? He basically said "No offense, but you're an idiot for believing what you do. No offense though."


I don't know if he meant what he said to be insulting but mabey he did. I didn't see it that way. I'm sure that he will be back on here to explain what he meant. Even if he did we are having a great discussion on here and don't let one person that you don't agree with cause you to leave.

duane1969
04-30-2011, 01:23 PM
Actually if I am correct according to the bible eating shellfish will result in damnation, along with wearing a poly-cotton blended fabric so in a way there are soem out there who would like you out of existance for eating lobster. :boxing:

You would be essentially correct. However there are a few interesting points to consider.

1) That is from the book of Leviticus which is one of the first five books of the Bible. It is widely accepted that the first 5 books were oral history and not the word of God sent to man to be written down. Interpretation is an arguable point.

2) Of all of the laws in the book of Leviticus the only one that Jesus taught was "Love they neighbor as thyself." So apprently Jesus didn't put a whole lot of weight on the shellfish thing.

Also, if we look at similar instructions in Deuteronomy 14:10 we see this: "And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you."

The scripture doesn't say it is damnation to eat shellfish, just that it is unclean. It is a health warning just like not eating pigs is. Think about it. What do shellfish eat? Fish crap, dead stuff, trash...they are unclean.

mrveggieman
04-30-2011, 03:28 PM
You would be essentially correct. However there are a few interesting points to consider.

1) That is from the book of Leviticus which is one of the first five books of the Bible. It is widely accepted that the first 5 books were oral history and not the word of God sent to man to be written down. Interpretation is an arguable point.

2) Of all of the laws in the book of Leviticus the only one that Jesus taught was "Love they neighbor as thyself." So apprently Jesus didn't put a whole lot of weight on the shellfish thing.

Also, if we look at similar instructions in Deuteronomy 14:10 we see this: "And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you."

The scripture doesn't say it is damnation to eat shellfish, just that it is unclean. It is a health warning just like not eating pigs is. Think about it. What do shellfish eat? Fish crap, dead stuff, trash...they are unclean.


You hit it right on the head duane. I wasn't around during the days of the old testament and I would believe that none of us were either but if the pig, shellfish and all of the other unclean animals were anywhere near unlcean back then as there are now why would anyone eat them let alone anyone who believes in the old or testament for that matter. People trip me out looking for verses in the new testament to contridict the old testament when it comes to things they want to do. Listen I love animals but certian ones God designated as unclean and knowing how they are why on earth would you eat them especially after God instructed you not to?

AUTaxMan
04-30-2011, 03:44 PM
You hit it right on the head duane. I wasn't around during the days of Leviticus and I would believe that none of us were either but if the pig, shellfish and all of the other unclean animals were anywhere near unlcean back then as there are now why would anyone eat them let alone anyone who believes in the old or testament for that matter. People trip me out looking for verses in the new testament to contridict the old testament when it comes to things they want to do. Listen I love animals but certian ones God designated as unclean and knowing how they are why on earth would you eat them especially after God instructed you not to?

The food laws that set Israel apart from the nations have been fulfilled and ended in Christ. Mark 7:18-19: "[Jesus] said to them, 'Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him...' (Thus he declared all foods clean)."

mrveggieman
04-30-2011, 04:26 PM
The food laws that set Israel apart from the nations have been fulfilled and ended in Christ. Mark 7:18-19: "[Jesus] said to them, 'Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him...' (Thus he declared all foods clean)."

If that's the case why do people get high chlosterol, blood pressure and a host of other ailments from eating pork and other unclean animals? Why is it that in american it is frowned upon to eat dogs and cats? Why is that Judiasm which came before christanity as well as Islam which came after christanity prohibit pork? Do you really think that God intended for us to eat whatever we want without consequence?

AUTaxMan
04-30-2011, 04:43 PM
If that's the case why do people get high chlosterol, blood pressure and a host of other ailments from eating pork and unclean animals? Why is it that in american it is frowned upon to eat dogs and cats? Why is that Judiasm which came before christanity as well as Islam which came after christanity prohibit pork? Do you really think that God intended for us to eat whatever we want without consequence?

I don't know the answers to all of those questions. I do know that Jesus said that no food is considered unclean because Jesus wanted the people to concentrate not on following all of the traditional laws and rules, but instead on their hearts and their faith.

mrveggieman
04-30-2011, 04:51 PM
I don't know the answers to all of those questions. I do know that Jesus said that no food is considered unclean because Jesus wanted the people to concentrate not on following all of the traditional laws and rules, but instead on their hearts and their faith.


If you use same logic from:
The food laws that set Israel apart from the nations have been fulfilled and ended in Christ. Mark 7:18-19: "[Jesus] said to them, 'Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him...' (Thus he declared all foods clean)."

Then why are drugs and alcohol not accepted??
__________________

sanfran22
04-30-2011, 05:35 PM
If you use same logic from:
The food laws that set Israel apart from the nations have been fulfilled and ended in Christ. Mark 7:18-19: "[Jesus] said to them, 'Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him...' (Thus he declared all foods clean)."

Then why are drugs and alcohol not accepted??
__________________
Drugs and alcohol are not food. and cause one to lose control (mind altering substances)..short, quick answer. :sign0020:

mrveggieman
04-30-2011, 06:17 PM
Drugs and alcohol are not food. and cause one to lose control (mind altering substances)..short, quick answer. :sign0020:


Mark 7:18-19: "[Jesus] said to them, 'Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him...' -Dosen't specify wheather it was talking about food, alcohol or drugs.

shortking98
04-30-2011, 09:50 PM
Mark 7:18-19: "[Jesus] said to them, 'Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him...' -Dosen't specify wheather it was talking about food, alcohol or drugs.

If you start at the beginning of the chapter for context it's pretty clear that this is referring to food

AUTaxMan
04-30-2011, 10:02 PM
If you start at the beginning of the chapter for context it's pretty clear that this is referring to food

He also left out the parenthetical at the end of the verse.

"(Thus he declared all foods clean)."

mrveggieman
04-30-2011, 10:54 PM
Speaking of food I'm about to go eat. I'm going to go read the story and get back to you with my spin on it. If anyone else wants to chime in feel free.

gatorboymike
04-30-2011, 11:34 PM
If that's the case why do people get high chlosterol, blood pressure and a host of other ailments from eating pork and other unclean animals? Why is it that in american it is frowned upon to eat dogs and cats? Why is that Judiasm which came before christanity as well as Islam which came after christanity prohibit pork? Do you really think that God intended for us to eat whatever we want without consequence?

I suspect that by "clean" it means "not sinful to eat it," rather than "eat as much as you want of whatever you want." Whether you're allowed to eat something at all, and whether it's wise to eat it, are two separate questions.

mrveggieman
05-01-2011, 11:30 AM
Also what about wine? The bible makes references to people drinking wine. Is wine ok to drink? If not why not and why were people drinking it at weddings?

AUTaxMan
05-01-2011, 06:04 PM
Also what about wine? The bible makes references to people drinking wine. Is wine ok to drink? If not why not and why were people drinking it at weddings?

I think the Bible is pretty clear that the drinking of wine is not a sin. Drunkenness is though. I also have heard that the wine in that day was not as potent as wine is today, and thus, alcohol-related social problems were probably not as prevalent as they are today, but I may be wrong about that.

duane1969
05-01-2011, 06:09 PM
Also what about wine? The bible makes references to people drinking wine. Is wine ok to drink? If not why not and why were people drinking it at weddings?

Drinking wine or any other alcoholic beverage is not a sin. Overindulgence is. In fact, overindulgence, whether it be wine, beer or Twinkies, is a sin.

Like AUTaxMan I have also heard that wine of biblical times was not the wine of today.

shapingle
05-02-2011, 12:24 AM
I would like to chip in on the conversation :) so to those of you that believe parts of the BIble and not all. IF you claim that parts of the BIble are false, and others are correct, what is the point on believing any of it. If the Bible was 'God breathed' which basically means God wrote the Bible through man, then how could any of it be false since God is perfect ?

I've read through about 25 pages of this thread and plan on reading the rest tommorow some time and I just wanted to say I've enjoyed reading all of this and I've learned a lot about christianity and diffeent point of views I've never heard before. (Btw I'm a bible believing christian)

mrveggieman
05-02-2011, 07:35 AM
I enjoy reading the bible as well as and other great scripture books like the Koran, Book of the Dead, etc. It's all about the interpretation. Everyone has a different spin on the holy books and which books are holy and which are not. If you ask 10 different people from 10 different walks of life you will get 10 different answers That's why I go directly to God for answers and couldn't care less what another man thinks about it because despite what he thinks he (man) dosen't have a heaven or hell to put me in.

habsheaven
05-02-2011, 08:01 AM
I would like to chip in on the conversation :) so to those of you that believe parts of the BIble and not all. IF you claim that parts of the BIble are false, and others are correct, what is the point on believing any of it. If the Bible was 'God breathed' which basically means God wrote the Bible through man, then how could any of it be false since God is perfect ?

I've read through about 25 pages of this thread and plan on reading the rest tommorow some time and I just wanted to say I've enjoyed reading all of this and I've learned a lot about christianity and diffeent point of views I've never heard before. (Btw I'm a bible believing christian)

I will respond to this with something I said earlier. I believe the parts that are provable and factual. I do not believe the parts that make NO SENSE. Much like the Clive Cussler novels I am currently reading. I BELIEVE the descriptions the author presents regarding places, boats, cars and other things I can verify. I DISBELIEVE the improbable actions of the heroes and villains of the novel because they are too far-fetched.

When faced with something that sounds unbelievable there are two probable conclusions. It's true because God says so, or it's false because MEN lie and exaggerate. COMMON SENSE determines which path I choose to take.

mrveggieman
05-02-2011, 09:42 AM
I have never visited this site and I don't think that I would agree with what they are saying but I am curiuos if anyone has ever visited jesusneverexisted.com? If so what proof did they give to deny his existance and what are you thoughts about the site?

Star_Cards
05-02-2011, 10:19 AM
I always bring those up to homophobic Christians. Apparently the Bible switches between literal and metaphorical, and/or contemporary and permanent, on a sentence-by-sentence basis.

this is one of the issues I see as well and sometimes it seems that people decide if it's literal or metaphorical depending on how they feel on the specific subject. Seems like they just decide to mold the bible that way at times to conform with their personal feelings on the subject matter.

Star_Cards
05-02-2011, 10:22 AM
i refuse to believe jesus was the son of god until i see the long-form birth certificate. And it must be appropriately laminated and notarized by the officials of bethlehem.

brilliant!!!

mrveggieman
05-03-2011, 11:51 AM
I got a question. Everyone complained about how bin Laden's remains were disposed of. My question was if Hitler died in a similar manner would he be deserving of a proper christian burial?

AUTaxMan
05-03-2011, 11:54 AM
I got a question. Everyone complained about how bin Laden's remains were disposed of. My question was if Hitler died in a similar manner would he be deserving of a proper christian burial?

What is a "proper Christian burial"?

Star_Cards
05-03-2011, 12:09 PM
I got a question. Everyone complained about how bin Laden's remains were disposed of. My question was if Hitler died in a similar manner would he be deserving of a proper christian burial?

good question. I'm not sure how I feel about this. For me I don't care how he was buried, but I get why the government went to steps to "bury" him by islamic guidelines. He was an enemy but like that the U.S. would rise above doing anything disrespectful after he was killed. Now, as I say that, I'd hope that most Muslims could care less about how he was buried and wouldn't have been offended no matter how we disposed of his body as he was a murderer who distorted their religion. This is a topic that I don't have a specific stance on at the moment, but is a good discussion.

habsheaven
05-03-2011, 12:13 PM
No, absolutely NOT!! Neither is "deserving" of anything remotely resembling a "proper" burial. They should be treated in death the same way they treated people in life.

AUTaxMan
05-03-2011, 12:18 PM
No, absolutely NOT!! Neither is "deserving" of anything remotely resembling a "proper" burial. They should be treated in death the same way they treated people in life.

Agreed, but I don't have a problem with what they did because it was the best move politically. Remember, we are dealing with people who would kill you for drawing a picture of Muhammad.

habsheaven
05-03-2011, 12:53 PM
Agreed, but I don't have a problem with what they did because it was the best move politically. Remember, we are dealing with people who would kill you for drawing a picture of Muhammad.

I do not have a problem with how they went about it either. I guess I should have worded it; "They should expect to be treated in death the same way they treated people in life".

mrveggieman
05-03-2011, 02:30 PM
Agreed, but I don't have a problem with what they did because it was the best move politically. Remember, we are dealing with people who would kill you for drawing a picture of Muhammad.


Not all of the muslims are like that. The fanitical ones are already mad that the US killed bin laden anyway so if the extremists are going to do something they are going to do it regardless of how his body was disposed of. I also believe that if you are a mass murderer such as hitler or bin laden you forfiet any right to a decent burial. If you don't have a problem killing innocent people why should we be concerned how you are buried?

AUTaxMan
05-03-2011, 03:20 PM
Not all of the muslims are like that. The fanitical ones are already mad that the US killed bin laden anyway so if the extremists are going to do something they are going to do it regardless of how his body was disposed of. I also believe that if you are a mass murderer such as hitler or bin laden you forfiet any right to a decent burial. If you don't have a problem killing innocent people why should we be concerned how you are buried?

I didn't say all Muslims were like that. I don't think anyone has a "right" to a "proper burial," so it doesn't really matter to me. I would prefer in cases of mass murderers like these guys that they be buried in the least dignified way possible that doesn't directly incite some other lunatic to start killing Americans.

mrveggieman
05-03-2011, 04:39 PM
I didn't say all Muslims were like that. I don't think anyone has a "right" to a "proper burial," so it doesn't really matter to me. I would prefer in cases of mass murderers like these guys that they be buried in the least dignified way possible that doesn't directly incite some other lunatic to start killing Americans.

It dosent really how they were buried a fanatic is going to be a fanatic. It's too bad that he was caught alive I would have love for the feds to interrogate him so we could get a glimpse inside his mind. But if he was killed bring him back to the United States show us the body then take him to israel and burn the body and bury the ashes with pig waste. That would be a decent burial for him as well as hitler.

Wudeverbro
05-03-2011, 04:46 PM
I would have wanted Osama to have been captured alive as well, so that he could look into the faces of all the surviving family members of those he had a hand in murdering. It probably would have taken an entire stadium for that but that would have been a reality check for someone talks a big game but uses people in his inner circle as a human shield.

Regardless of what we think Osama deserves, he will get what is coming to him for eternity. That's enough for me personally.

gatorboymike
05-03-2011, 09:30 PM
The "Christian Love" is really flyin' outta here tonight.

mrveggieman
05-03-2011, 10:41 PM
The "Christian Love" is really flyin' outta here tonight.


The hottest places in hell are reserved for people like bin Laden regardless of what religion you follow.

AUTaxMan
05-03-2011, 10:49 PM
I doubt GBM believes in hell or any afterlife, so he probably doesn't have an opinion on the matter.

habsheaven
05-03-2011, 11:00 PM
I doubt GBM believes in hell or any afterlife, so he probably doesn't have an opinion on the matter.

I won't speak for GBM, but I prefer to institute a little man-made Hell on individuals like Osama before they meet their maker, just in case.:smokin:

gatorboymike
05-04-2011, 05:11 AM
The hottest places in hell are reserved for people like bin Laden regardless of what religion you follow.

Unless people like bin Laden are actually the ones whose religion is true, in which case the hottest places in hell are reserved for non-Muslims. They have just as much to back up their story as you do to support yours. You can hash it out with them as to whose hell is the real one and what one must do to avoid going there all you like, it won't make any difference. Meanwhile, to nonbelievers like me, this all looks identical to a bunch of D&D geeks arguing about whose character would win in a fight.

Justice has to be done in the here and now. Otherwise, there is no justice. You guys are the ones who are commanded to love thine enemy and turn the other cheek. Although in cases like this, perhaps we're fortunate that those are the two commands of Jesus' that Christians follow least of all. What kind of national security policy would that make?

mrveggieman
05-04-2011, 07:35 AM
Unless people like bin Laden are actually the ones whose religion is true, in which case the hottest places in hell are reserved for non-Muslims. They have just as much to back up their story as you do to support yours. You can hash it out with them as to whose hell is the real one and what one must do to avoid going there all you like, it won't make any difference. Meanwhile, to nonbelievers like me, this all looks identical to a bunch of D&D geeks arguing about whose character would win in a fight.

Justice has to be done in the here and now. Otherwise, there is no justice. You guys are the ones who are commanded to love thine enemy and turn the other cheek. Although in cases like this, perhaps we're fortunate that those are the two commands of Jesus' that Christians follow least of all. What kind of national security policy would that make?

I have studied the Koran just like I have studied the Bible and please correct me if I'm wrong but no where in either of those great books does it command that it's readers murder innocent people. So assuming that Christanity and or Islam is the correct religion and if bin Landen was in any way responsible for 9-11-01 and did not get right by God before meeting his demise he has one of those hot spots waiting for him. I do agree however that he should be punished her on earth before he has to answer to God for what he did. I do also believe that there is nothing that can be done to him on earth that will be greater than the wrath that God can put on him.

mrveggieman
05-04-2011, 07:49 AM
Also check out this article. The first five points were on point. I'm not going to disagree nor agree with the 6th point because you can neither scientifically prove nor disprove a particular religion.

http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

AUTaxMan
05-04-2011, 08:37 AM
You guys are the ones who are commanded to love thine enemy and turn the other cheek. Although in cases like this, perhaps we're fortunate that those are the two commands of Jesus' that Christians follow least of all. What kind of national security policy would that make?

I believe you are referring to this scripture:

"Do not resist him who is evil; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone wants to sue you, and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. And whoever shall force you to go one mile, go with him two." Matthew 5:39-41

Jesus here isn't telling us to let evil steamroll us. He is telling us to overcome evil with good. These verses come from the sermon on the mount, where Jesus uses hyperbole (yes, Jesus used hyperbole and illustrations as a primary teaching tool throughout the gospels) to illustrate his points and tell us what our primary dispositions should be. Jesus himself drove thieves out of the temple with a whip in John.

However, the Bible justifies nations going to war and governments punishing evildoers.

"For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil." Romans 13:3-4

"Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right." 1 Peter 2:13-14

Thus, it is not inconsistent with the teachings of the Bible for nations to go to war and to punish evildoers. We re to love our enemies on a personal level, but it is appropriate for us to fight those governments/terrorist groups who want to overtake us.

mrveggieman
05-04-2011, 08:43 AM
I agree with most of the previous point as far as catching and bringing anyone responsible for 9-11-01 to justice. I disagree with anyone (not suggesting that the previous writer is or is not) who uses the formentioned verses to justify the Iraq war.

sanfran22
05-04-2011, 01:15 PM
I have studied the Koran just like I have studied the Bible and please correct me if I'm wrong but no where in either of those great books does it command that it's readers murder innocent people. So assuming that Christanity and or Islam is the correct religion and if bin Landen was in any way responsible for 9-11-01 and did not get right by God before meeting his demise he has one of those hot spots waiting for him. I do agree however that he should be punished her on earth before he has to answer to God for what he did. I do also believe that there is nothing that can be done to him on earth that will be greater than the wrath that God can put on him.

"Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme." (Koran 8:37)
The Koran instructs not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (Koran 5:51) but to war against them: "When the Sacred Months are over, kill those who ascribe partners to God wheresoever ye find them; seize them, encompass them, and ambush them; then if they repent and observe prayer and pay the alms, let them go their way (Koran 4:5). "Fight against those who believe not in God nor in the Last Day, who... refuse allegiance to the True Faith from among those who have received the Book, until they humbly pay tribute out of hand." (Koran 9:29) Note: These verses distinguish between warfare against pagans, and against Jews and Christians.[17] (http://www.dianedew.com/islam-fn.htm)
"...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191); "fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Koran 9:5); "murder them and treat them harshly" (Koran 9:123).
"Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin." (Koran 69:30-37)
"Strike off the heads of the disbelievers"; and after making a "wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" (Koran 47:4).
"Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers"; "smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them" (Koran 8:12; cp. 8:60).
"O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed" (Koran 9:73).
"slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace..." (Koran 5:34).
"for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods" (Koran 22:19-22

AUTaxMan
05-04-2011, 01:22 PM
"Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme." (Koran 8:37)
The Koran instructs not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (Koran 5:51) but to war against them: "When the Sacred Months are over, kill those who ascribe partners to God wheresoever ye find them; seize them, encompass them, and ambush them; then if they repent and observe prayer and pay the alms, let them go their way (Koran 4:5). "Fight against those who believe not in God nor in the Last Day, who... refuse allegiance to the True Faith from among those who have received the Book, until they humbly pay tribute out of hand." (Koran 9:29) Note: These verses distinguish between warfare against pagans, and against Jews and Christians.[17] (http://www.dianedew.com/islam-fn.htm)
"...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191); "fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Koran 9:5); "murder them and treat them harshly" (Koran 9:123).
"Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin." (Koran 69:30-37)
"Strike off the heads of the disbelievers"; and after making a "wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" (Koran 47:4).
"Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers"; "smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them" (Koran 8:12; cp. 8:60).
"O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed" (Koran 9:73).
"slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace..." (Koran 5:34).
"for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods" (Koran 22:19-22

I guess he was half right. Such a compassionate and peaceful religion, that Islam.

coclarkson
05-04-2011, 01:24 PM
without reading this entire thread, the bible is just a fairy tale

habsheaven
05-04-2011, 01:32 PM
I guess he was half right. Such a compassionate and peaceful religion, that Islam.

I am sure if we talk to an Islamic scholar he can discount all of those passages in a manner similar to how Christians discount almost every similar passage in the Old Testament.

So stop throwing stones from the steps of your GLASS house.:rolleyes:

sanfran22
05-04-2011, 01:32 PM
I guess he was half right. Such a compassionate and peaceful religion, that Islam.
No doubt.....:smash:

habsheaven
05-04-2011, 01:34 PM
without reading this entire thread, the bible is just a fairy tale

Smart man, you wouldn't find a single post in this thread worthy of even considering changing your mind.:love0030:

AUTaxMan
05-04-2011, 01:36 PM
I am sure if we talk to an Islamic scholar he can discount all of those passages in a manner similar to how Christians discount almost every similar passage in the Old Testament.

So stop throwing stones from the steps of your GLASS house.:rolleyes:

I'd love to hear it. No glass house here. I know what I believe and what my religion stands for.

sanfran22
05-04-2011, 01:37 PM
I am sure if we talk to an Islamic scholar he can discount all of those passages in a manner similar to how Christians discount almost every similar passage in the Old Testament.

So stop throwing stones from the steps of your GLASS house.:rolleyes:
You are out of your league so I'd stop while you are ahead. It's no where near the same. Where in the bible does it instruct us to kill the infidel if he doesn't convert? Just wondering...

Wudeverbro
05-04-2011, 01:41 PM
I think this thread is officially over the constructive argument phase. It's fine to not believe in what others believe in but to make snide remarks about what people believe in is inflammatory and disrespectful.

AUTaxMan
05-04-2011, 01:49 PM
You are out of your league so I'd stop while you are ahead. It's no where near the same. Where in the bible does it instruct us to kill the infidel if he doesn't convert? Just wondering...

I'm truly saddened by the misinformed preconceived notions that the non-believers in this thread have about the Christian faith because it shows that we as a church have not done a very good job of letting people know who we are and what we believe.

Aside from that, it really frustrates me that while they claim to know what we believe, they will not take our word for it when we refute their erroneous assumptions about our faith. At the same time, however, we are ridiculed for being close-minded about opposing viewpoints.

It's a double-standard. It's ignorant. And it's disingenuous.

Sorry for the rant.

habsheaven
05-04-2011, 01:54 PM
I'd love to hear it. No glass house here. I know what I believe and what my religion stands for.

You were not commenting on YOUR religion, you were commenting on someone else's.

habsheaven
05-04-2011, 01:57 PM
I'm truly saddened by the misinformed preconceived notions that the non-believers in this thread have about the Christian faith because it shows that we as a church have not done a very good job of letting people know who we are and what we believe.

Aside from that, it really frustrates me that while they claim to know what we believe, they will not take our word for it when we refute their erroneous assumptions about our faith. At the same time, however, we are ridiculed for being close-minded about opposing viewpoints.

It's a double-standard. It's ignorant. And it's disingenuous.

Sorry for the rant.

You are such a hyprocrit. You just insulted Islam three or four posts back and have the nerve to post this comment.:rolleyes:

sanfran22
05-04-2011, 01:58 PM
I'm truly saddened by the misinformed preconceived notions that the non-believers in this thread have about the Christian faith because it shows that we as a church have not done a very good job of letting people know who we are and what we believe.

Aside from that, it really frustrates me that while they claim to know what we believe, they will not take our word for it when we refute their erroneous assumptions about our faith. At the same time, however, we are ridiculed for being close-minded about opposing viewpoints.

It's a double-standard. It's ignorant. And it's disingenuous.

Sorry for the rant.
I hear ya.....Only can pray their hardened hearts will soften. You've done your job and planted the seed. It's out of your hands....:hug:

AUTaxMan
05-04-2011, 01:58 PM
You were not commenting on YOUR religion, you were commenting on someone else's.

After reading this, I am even more convinced:

http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/guestessays/islam_peace.html

AUTaxMan
05-04-2011, 02:03 PM
You are such a hyprocrit. You just insulted Islam three or four posts back and have the nerve to post this comment.:rolleyes:

How am I being hypocritical? I have studied Islam and many other religions. I actually just finished a class on world religions in which we studied many of the world's popular religions. Where has anyone refuted what was posted about Islam? I have made an informed decision about my faith, and I stand by my comment.

mrveggieman
05-04-2011, 02:04 PM
"Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme." (Koran 8:37)
The Koran instructs not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (Koran 5:51) but to war against them: "When the Sacred Months are over, kill those who ascribe partners to God wheresoever ye find them; seize them, encompass them, and ambush them; then if they repent and observe prayer and pay the alms, let them go their way (Koran 4:5). "Fight against those who believe not in God nor in the Last Day, who... refuse allegiance to the True Faith from among those who have received the Book, until they humbly pay tribute out of hand." (Koran 9:29) Note: These verses distinguish between warfare against pagans, and against Jews and Christians.[17] (http://www.dianedew.com/islam-fn.htm)
"...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191); "fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Koran 9:5); "murder them and treat them harshly" (Koran 9:123).
"Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin." (Koran 69:30-37)
"Strike off the heads of the disbelievers"; and after making a "wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" (Koran 47:4).
"Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers"; "smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them" (Koran 8:12; cp. 8:60).
"O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed" (Koran 9:73).
"slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace..." (Koran 5:34).
"for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods" (Koran 22:19-22

Christians teach that if there is something controversial in the bible not to only quote that verse but the read the 5 verses before and afterwards for better understanding. Have you gave the Koran the same respect by reading the 5 verses before and after you picked and choosed verses to suit your own argument? If so please post and give me your spin on it. I WONT be holding my breath waiting for you.

AUTaxMan
05-04-2011, 02:05 PM
Christians teach that if there is something controversial in the bible not to only quote that verse but the read the 5 verses before and afterwards for better understanding. Have you gave the Koran the same respect by reading the 5 verses before and after you picked and choosed verses to suit your own argument? If so please post and give me your spin on it. I WONT be holding my breath waiting for you.

Read the article I posted above.

habsheaven
05-04-2011, 02:07 PM
You are out of your league so I'd stop while you are ahead. It's no where near the same. Where in the bible does it instruct us to kill the infidel if he doesn't convert? Just wondering...

What are they talking about here?

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Star_Cards
05-04-2011, 02:11 PM
"Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme." (Koran 8:37)
The Koran instructs not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (Koran 5:51) but to war against them: "When the Sacred Months are over, kill those who ascribe partners to God wheresoever ye find them; seize them, encompass them, and ambush them; then if they repent and observe prayer and pay the alms, let them go their way (Koran 4:5). "Fight against those who believe not in God nor in the Last Day, who... refuse allegiance to the True Faith from among those who have received the Book, until they humbly pay tribute out of hand." (Koran 9:29) Note: These verses distinguish between warfare against pagans, and against Jews and Christians.[17] (http://www.dianedew.com/islam-fn.htm)
"...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191); "fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Koran 9:5); "murder them and treat them harshly" (Koran 9:123).
"Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin." (Koran 69:30-37)
"Strike off the heads of the disbelievers"; and after making a "wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" (Koran 47:4).
"Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers"; "smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them" (Koran 8:12; cp. 8:60).
"O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed" (Koran 9:73).
"slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace..." (Koran 5:34).
"for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods" (Koran 22:19-22

I by no means want to stick up for Islam or any religion for that matter, but I find this post is a bit hypocritical. Most of the biblical passages posted by non believers in this thread has been said to have been taken out of context or wasn't meant to be translated literally. How do we know that these aren't as well?

I won't say that there's not some very disturbing text that you posted above, but I'd think that is one religious man request full context of his religious text he would respect that of another religion.

AUTaxMan
05-04-2011, 02:11 PM
What are they talking about here?

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Please stop pulling old Mosaic law out of the Bible and insinuating that it is was Christianity teaches. Haven't we beaten this dead horse enough?

AUTaxMan
05-04-2011, 02:12 PM
I by no means want to stick up for Islam or any religion for that matter, but I find this post is a bit hypocritical. Most of the biblical passages posted by non believers in this thread has been said to have been taken out of context or wasn't meant to be translated literally. How do we know that these aren't as well?

I won't say that there's not some very disturbing text that you posted above, but I'd think that is one religious man request full context of his religious text he would respect that of another religion.

Read the article I posted. It seems pretty convincing to me.

Star_Cards
05-04-2011, 02:13 PM
What are they talking about here?

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

seems like these texts have the same basic ideal as the posted texts from the koran. At least in my opinion.

mrveggieman
05-04-2011, 02:13 PM
Cruelty and Violence in the Bible

For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast.--Ex.12:12 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/12.html#12)
The God of the Old Testament has got to be the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous, and proud of it, petty, vindictive, unjust, unforgiving, racist. -- Richard Dawkins, The Root of All Evil? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Root_of_All_Evil%3F)
Genesis (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/cr_list.html)
Because God liked Abel's animal sacrifice more than Cain's vegetables, Cain kills his brother Abel in a fit of religious jealousy. 4:8 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/4.html#8)
"I will destroy ... both man and beast."
God is angry. He decides to destroy all humans, beasts, creeping things, fowls, and "all flesh wherein there is breath of life." He plans to drown them all. 6:7 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/6.html#7), 17 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/6.html#17)
"Every living substance that I have made will I destroy."
God repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals. 7:4 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/7.html#4)
"All flesh died that moved upon the earth."
God drowns everything that breathes air. From newborn babies to koala bears -- all creatures great and small, the Lord God drowned them all. 7:21-23 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/7.html#21)
God sends a plague on the Pharaoh and his household because the Pharaoh believed Abram's lie. 12:17 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/12.html#17)
God tells Abram to kill some animals for him. The needless slaughter makes God feel better. 15:9-10 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/15.html#9)
Hagar conceives, making Sarai jealous. Abram tells Sarai to do to Hagar whatever she wants. "And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled." 16:6 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/16.html#16)
"I will not destroy it for ten's sake."
I guess God couldn't find even ten good Sodomites because he decides to kill them all in Genesis 19 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/19.html#1). Too bad Abraham didn't ask God about the children. Why not save them? If Abraham could find 10 good children, toddlers, infants, or babies, would God spare the city? Apparently not. God doesn't give a damn about children. 18:32 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/18.html#32)
Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "™™™™™™ daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Peter 2:7-8 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/2pet/2.html#7). 19:7-8 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/19.html#7)
God kills everyone (men, women, children, infants, newborns) in Sodom and Gomorrah by raining "fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven." Well, almost everyone -- he spares the "just and righteous" Lot and his family. 19:24 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/19.html#24)
You see I can pick and chose verses of scripture to disprove the bible too. Does it serve a purpose no, I just want to show that the bible can be misquoted just like the Koran.

Star_Cards
05-04-2011, 02:16 PM
Please stop pulling old Mosaic law out of the Bible and insinuating that it is was Christianity teaches. Haven't we beaten this dead horse enough?

Isn't this what SanFran has done to Islam? In my opinion Habs is simply stating that both Islam and Christianity have some very harsh entries speaking of how people of different religions should be handled. If you can say that this is not the teaching of Christianity today why can't the same be said for Islam?

Star_Cards
05-04-2011, 02:18 PM
You are such a hyprocrit. You just insulted Islam three or four posts back and have the nerve to post this comment.:rolleyes:

this thread has taken quite an ironic turn if you ask me.

AUTaxMan
05-04-2011, 02:18 PM
Isn't this what SanFran has done to Islam? In my opinion Habs is simply stating that both Islam and Christianity have some very harsh entries speaking of how people of different religions should be handled. If you can say that this is not the teaching of Christianity today why can't the same be said for Islam?

I invite you to find me something that refutes it. Did you read the article I posted above?

Star_Cards
05-04-2011, 02:19 PM
Read the article I posted. It seems pretty convincing to me.

not seeing the link. do you happen to know which page it is on?

habsheaven
05-04-2011, 02:19 PM
After reading this, I am even more convinced:

http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/guestessays/islam_peace.html

More hypocricy! A "good Christian" finds agreement in the musings of an Atheist website when it concerns a rival religion. That's too funny.

AUTaxMan
05-04-2011, 02:20 PM
http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/guestessays/islam_peace.html

Wudeverbro
05-04-2011, 02:20 PM
Isn't this what SanFran has done to Islam? In my opinion Habs is simply stating that both Islam and Christianity have some very harsh entries speaking of how people of different religions should be handled. If you can say that this is not the teaching of Christianity today why can't the same be said for Islam?

Islam has no Messiah. With Jesus' death and resurrection the old Mosaic law was fulfilled and death was defeated. This may be hard to believe but it is the fundamental belief of all Christians. Although the Mosaic Law is useful for pointing us in the right direction towards God, it is moot in terms of how we practice our faith. Islam has no Messiah releasing them from the doctrine that you all quoted from the Koran. I don't know the Koran enough to know whether it's literal or not, but I can say for Christianity and the Bible, the harsh images and stories no longer apply to our times because of Jesus' death and resurrection.

AUTaxMan
05-04-2011, 02:21 PM
More hypocricy! A "good Christian" finds agreement in the musings of an Atheist website when it concerns a rival religion. That's too funny.

Wouldn't the atheist would be the most impartial source? I am more than willing to read a scholarly Muslim viewpoint on the issue if you present one.

How would you have had me respond? It is becoming apparent to me that no answer of mine would be satisfactory to you.

mrveggieman
05-04-2011, 02:22 PM
And let's not forget the new testament.


Matthew (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/cr_list.html)

Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/3.html#10)
Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/5.html#17)
Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/5.html#29)
Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/7.html#13)
Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 7:19 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/7.html#19)
"The children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 8:12 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/8.html#12)
Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/8.html#21)
Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/8.html#32)
Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen.19:24 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/19.html#24)). 10:14-15 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/10.html#14)
Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/10.html#21)
Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and "able to destroy both soul and body in hell." 10:28 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/10.html#28)
Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." 10:34-36 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/10.html#34)
Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. 11:20-24 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/11.html#20)
Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." 13:41-42, 50 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/13.html#41)
Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex.21:15 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/21.html#15), Lev.20:9 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/lev/20.html#9), Dt.21:18-21 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/21.html#18)) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/15.html#4)
Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it's better to be "maimed" than to suffer "everlasting fire." 18:8-9 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/18.html#8)
In the parable of the unforgiving servant, the king threatens to enslave a man and his entire family to pay for a debt. This practice, which was common at the time, seems not to have bothered Jesus very much. The parable ends with this: "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you." If you are cruel to others, God will be cruel to you. 18:23-35 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/18.html#23)
"And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors." 18:34 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/18.html#34)
In the parable of the marriage feast, the king sends his servants to gather everyone they can find, both bad and good, to come to the wedding feast. One guest didn't have on his wedding garment, so the king tied him up and "cast him into the outer darkness" where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 22:12-13 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/22.html#12)
Jesus had no problem with the idea of drowning everyone on earth in the flood. It'll be just like that when he returns. 24:37 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/24.html#37)
God will come when people least expect him and then he'll "cut them asunder." And "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 24:50-51 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/24.html#50)
The servant who kept and returned his master's talent was cast into the "outer darkness" where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." 25:30 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/25.html#30)
Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an "everlasting fire." 25:41 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/25.html#41)
Jesus says the damned will be tormented forever. 25:46 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mt/25.html#46)
Mark (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mk/cr_list.html)
Jesus explains why he speaks in parables: to confuse people so they will go to hell. 4:11-12 (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/mk/4.html#11)

Star_Cards
05-04-2011, 02:23 PM
I invite you to find me something that refutes it. Did you read the article I posted above?

that refutes what exactly? Islam being malicious to any other religion?

I guess what refutes it for me is the fact that I have not been killed by the church of islam that practices dow the street from my house for not converting to Islam. Sure there are some extremists of Islam that have done this, but if the whole religion was following this belief there'd certainly be many more attacks on non-muslims, or at least I would think.

habsheaven
05-04-2011, 02:24 PM
Please stop pulling old Mosaic law out of the Bible and insinuating that it is was Christianity teaches. Haven't we beaten this dead horse enough?

Oh, I get it. You can do it with Islamic text, but we can't do so with Christian text. Again, too funny!!!:sign0020:

Star_Cards
05-04-2011, 02:25 PM
Islam has no Messiah. With Jesus' death and resurrection the old Mosaic law was fulfilled and death was defeated. This may be hard to believe but it is the fundamental belief of all Christians. Although the Mosaic Law is useful for pointing us in the right direction towards God, it is moot in terms of how we practice our faith. Islam has no Messiah releasing them from the doctrine that you all quoted from the Koran. I don't know the Koran enough to know whether it's literal or not, but I can say for Christianity and the Bible, the harsh images and stories no longer apply to our times because of Jesus' death and resurrection.

interesting, so could the same be said about the Koran? Could it be said that the harsh images and stories and rules are no longer apply?

AUTaxMan
05-04-2011, 02:26 PM
Oh, I get it. You can do it with Islamic text, but we can't do so with Christian text. Again, too funny!!!:sign0020:

Again, you are all talk but no substance. Give me something that refutes it, and I will read it.

habsheaven
05-04-2011, 02:26 PM
Wouldn't the atheist would be the most impartial source? I am more than willing to read a scholarly Muslim viewpoint on the issue if you present one.

How would you have had me respond? It is becoming apparent to me that no answer of mine would be satisfactory to you.

Yes, the Atheist would be the most impartial source. I agree with you. You must then agree that the Atheist's musing about Christianity are just as valid as his beliefs about Islam. Glad to see you are starting to see the Light!

Wudeverbro
05-04-2011, 02:26 PM
interesting, so could the same be said about the Koran? Could it be said that the harsh images and stories and rules are no longer apply?

as I stated earlier, Islam has no Messiah. I can't say what those texts really mean but I do know Islam does not believe in Jesus other than that he was a prophet and not a Messiah.

habsheaven
05-04-2011, 02:31 PM
Again, you are all talk but no substance. Give me something that refutes it, and I will read it.

Where did I say that I refute it?

Star_Cards
05-04-2011, 02:33 PM
as far as the link, I didn't read it all, but from my experience not all Muslims have the same views as terrorists that claim Islam and try to exterminate non islam believers. It's just like I know not all christians are like the nut jobs from the Westboro Baptist Church that protest military funerals.

mrveggieman
05-04-2011, 02:34 PM
You this Islam vs Christanity reminds me of an old George Carlin joke that I'm going to paraphrase. "Do you believe in God? Yes. Do you believe in my God. No. Boom you're dead. My God is "bigger" than your God." Please note that I cleaned up this joke since this is a family website but we all know where he was going with it.

habsheaven
05-04-2011, 02:35 PM
as I stated earlier, Islam has no Messiah. I can't say what those texts really mean but I do know Islam does not believe in Jesus other than that he was a prophet and not a Messiah.

Well apparently sanfran22 and AUtaxman do KNOW what those texts really mean. Luckily none of us have ever crossed paths with a practicing Muslim or we would be dead right now.

mrveggieman
05-04-2011, 02:39 PM
Well apparently sanfran22 and AUtaxman do KNOW what those texts really mean. Luckily none of us have ever crossed paths with a practicing Muslim or we would be dead right now.


Good thing that we have never crossed paths with real "Christians" like jerry fallwell or terry jones or we would be dead right now.

Wudeverbro
05-04-2011, 02:40 PM
Well apparently sanfran22 and AUtaxman do KNOW what those texts really mean. Luckily none of us have ever crossed paths with a practicing Muslim or we would be dead right now.

I'd have to think that they don't mean what they say in today's terms, otherwise as someone had stated earlier, we'd all be dead and only Muslims would be walking the Earth. I just know for my faith, the stories in the OT do not literally apply to present day terms but are a good teaching source for our faith.

As for the Westboro Baptist Church, I tried to contact them to no avail since they were bombarded with messages on their website. I go to a Baptist church myself and when I heard about what they did I was very saddened and wanted to rebuke them. it's people like them that make it very hard to share the Gospel with anyone.

gatorboymike
05-04-2011, 03:44 PM
Actually, Christians DO have to follow the Mosiac law.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
- Matthew 5:17-18

Christian apologists will say that when he says "fulfill," he effectively means abolish. So he came not to abolish the law, but to abolish it? Suuuuuure. The only laws he supposedly abolished were the sacrificial laws, and if you want to stretch it, maybe the dietary laws too. Everything else, you're still instructed to uphold. That includes making war against non-Christians, killing and enslaving them.

And while we're shoulder-deep inside the borderline (musical reference FTW), Muslim apologists will try to brush off those verses in the Quran about making war on non-Muslims and slaying them wherever you find them by saying "Oh, that only means don't START a war. It's OK to make war and slay infidels if THEY start it. See, it says 'begin not hostilities' and 'do not slay the innocent.'" Of course, modern Islamic culture has made it clear that they consider other nations not being Muslim, in and of itself, to be the beginning of hostilities. And according to Islamic cleric Anjem Choudary, Britain's answer to Jerry Falwell, "when we say 'innocent people,' we mean Muslims." So it's open season on everyone else.

There, are you happy? I criticized Islam too. Now I don't want to hear this "oh, you atheists only talk about Christianity because secretly you know we're right, uh huh huh huh." Dispense with the pretense, Hortense.

Wudeverbro
05-04-2011, 03:55 PM
Actually, Christians DO have to follow the Mosiac law.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
- Matthew 5:17-18

Christian apologists will say that when he says "fulfill," he effectively means abolish. So he came not to abolish the law, but to abolish it? Suuuuuure. The only laws he supposedly abolished were the sacrificial laws, and if you want to stretch it, maybe the dietary laws too. Everything else, you're still instructed to uphold. That includes making war against non-Christians, killing and enslaving them.

And while we're shoulder-deep inside the borderline (musical reference FTW), Muslim apologists will try to brush off those verses in the Quran about making war on non-Muslims and slaying them wherever you find them by saying "Oh, that only means don't START a war. It's OK to make war and slay infidels if THEY start it. See, it says 'begin not hostilities' and 'do not slay the innocent.'" Of course, modern Islamic culture has made it clear that they consider other nations not being Muslim, in and of itself, to be the beginning of hostilities. And according to Islamic cleric Anjem Choudary, Britain's answer to Jerry Falwell, "when we say 'innocent people,' we mean Muslims." So it's open season on everyone else.

There, are you happy? I criticized Islam too. Now I don't want to hear this "oh, you atheists only talk about Christianity because secretly you know we're right, uh huh huh huh." Dispense with the pretense, Hortense.

Believe what you want, nothing in the Bible tells me that I need to "make war against non-Christians, kill and enslave them." If this is what you really believe about Christians, I really wish you the best of luck.

mrveggieman
05-04-2011, 04:00 PM
Actually, Christians DO have to follow the Mosiac law.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
- Matthew 5:17-18

Christian apologists will say that when he says "fulfill," he effectively means abolish. So he came not to abolish the law, but to abolish it? Suuuuuure. The only laws he supposedly abolished were the sacrificial laws, and if you want to stretch it, maybe the dietary laws too. Everything else, you're still instructed to uphold. That includes making war against non-Christians, killing and enslaving them.

And while we're shoulder-deep inside the borderline (musical reference FTW), Muslim apologists will try to brush off those verses in the Quran about making war on non-Muslims and slaying them wherever you find them by saying "Oh, that only means don't START a war. It's OK to make war and slay infidels if THEY start it. See, it says 'begin not hostilities' and 'do not slay the innocent.'" Of course, modern Islamic culture has made it clear that they consider other nations not being Muslim, in and of itself, to be the beginning of hostilities. And according to Islamic cleric Anjem Choudary, Britain's answer to Jerry Falwell, "when we say 'innocent people,' we mean Muslims." So it's open season on everyone else.

There, are you happy? I criticized Islam too. Now I don't want to hear this "oh, you atheists only talk about Christianity because secretly you know we're right, uh huh huh huh." Dispense with the pretense, Hortense.


Do we really need any more Jerry Fallwells? :sign0020: But on the cool even though I don't agree with being an atheist I can respect them because they can give an objective and unbiased answer on why they don't believe in any scriptures compared to religious nuts who can't give you a consistent let alone logical answer on why they believe in what they believe and why their religion is superior to all others.

Wudeverbro
05-04-2011, 04:06 PM
Do we really need any more Jerry Fallwells? :sign0020: But on the cool even though I don't agree with being an atheist I can respect them because they can give an objective and unbiased answer on why they don't believe in any scriptures compared to religious nuts who can't give you a consistent let alone logical answer on why they believe in what they believe and why their religion is superior to all others.

I disagree that nonbelievers can all be objective and unbiased in answering questions about religion. Everyone has an agenda and atheists' main objective is to disprove and unsubstantiate any claims about what Christians/Muslims, etc believe. There may be no relative uniform belief from Atheists but each of them has some sort of agenda that is not really consistent from one Atheist to the next. Kind of like how some Christians differ in their interpretation of certain passages of the Bible.

mrveggieman
05-04-2011, 04:21 PM
I disagree that nonbelievers can all be objective and unbiased in answering questions about religion. Everyone has an agenda and atheists' main objective is to disprove and unsubstantiate any claims about what Christians/Muslims, etc believe. There may be no relative uniform belief from Atheists but each of them has some sort of agenda that is not really consistent from one Atheist to the next. Kind of like how some Christians differ in their interpretation of certain passages of the Bible.

I like you because you are one of the few christians that I've read on here that makes an ounce of sense. However this is where we disagree somewhat. Most (but not all) atheists are not on a personal crusade to disprove religion. However most religious people are on a personal crusade to prove that their religion is right and if you don't follow theirs exactly as they perscribe you are doomed to hell. Atheists go about their daily business because atheism is not religion and faith means nothing to them. It's just like asking one of us on here about barbie dolls. However if you ask an atheist for their opinion about a religious issue they will tell you what they think. Again I am not an atheist nor am I supporting or endorsing atheism I am just giving respect where respect is due. I think that a lot of christians, muslims, and jews could learn a lot from atheists.

Wudeverbro
05-04-2011, 04:29 PM
I like you because you are one of the few christians that I've read on here that makes an ounce of sense. However this is where we disagree somewhat. Most (but not all) atheists are not on a personal crusade to disprove religion. However most religious people are on a personal crusade to prove that their religion is right and if you don't follow theirs exactly as they perscribe you are doomed to hell. Atheists go about their daily business because atheism is not religion and faith means nothing to them. It's just like asking one of us on here about barbie dolls. However if you ask an atheist for their opinion about a religious issue they will tell you what they think. Again I am not an atheist nor am I supporting or endorsing atheism I am just giving respect where respect is due. I think that a lot of christians, muslims, and jews could learn a lot from atheists.

I think a lot of Christian can definitely learn a lot from nonbelievers but for many of those Christians I might not even really consider them Christian,but that's a whole 'nother discussion. :winking0071:

I don't want to generalize but I do believe some Atheists to be so against the idea of religion, it is their crusade to disprove everything religious. That in itself, in my opinion, causes you to be close minded and such.

I do apologize for those who argue to the point of no love shown. I am willing to accept that many do not believe in what I believe and there is a point in a conversation like this thread, where anything else argued about is a detriment to both sides, because it starts to feel like, "who's winning the argument and who has the upper hand?" All I ask is that neither side be patronizing and sarcastic about each other's viewpoints. I mean, how hard is it to say, "I hear what you are saying, but that doesn't make sense to me because..."

gatorboymike
05-04-2011, 06:14 PM
A crusade to disprove everything religious? My good man, almost everything religious has already been disproven.

Wudeverbro
05-04-2011, 06:19 PM
You must feel really good about that. I suppose I will choose to believe in things that make no sense.

gatorboymike
05-04-2011, 06:43 PM
As you wish, but personally, I couldn't live with myself if I said that to myself.

sanfran22
05-04-2011, 08:19 PM
I'd have to think that they don't mean what they say in today's terms, otherwise as someone had stated earlier, we'd all be dead and only Muslims would be walking the Earth. I just know for my faith, the stories in the OT do not literally apply to present day terms but are a good teaching source for our faith.

As for the Westboro Baptist Church, I tried to contact them to no avail since they were bombarded with messages on their website. I go to a Baptist church myself and when I heard about what they did I was very saddened and wanted to rebuke them. it's people like them that make it very hard to share the Gospel with anyone.
Really? They don't take it literally? What's the punishment for practicing Christianity in say Iran, Afganistan, Syria ect ect??
As far as the Biblical quotes, I read over them pretty quickly but I don't see anywhere that it says kill the non-belivers if they don't convert. Seems like a few of those passages were speaking about believers and one was speaking on judgement....
Lastly, want some real info from a real ex-muslim? Read some of the stuff from this guy......http://www.shoebat.com/comments.php

Wudeverbro
05-04-2011, 08:27 PM
Really? They don't take it literally? What's the punishment for practicing Christianity in say Iran, Afganistan, Syria ect ect??
As far as the Biblical quotes, I read over them pretty quickly but I don't see anywhere that it says kill the non-belivers if they don't convert. Seems like a few of those passages were speaking about believers and one was speaking on judgement....
Lastly, want some real info from a real ex-muslim? Read some of the stuff from this guy......http://www.shoebat.com/comments.php

to be honest, I am more concerned about the truths about Christianity. I don't claim to know a lot about Islam but to me personally, it's not a violent religion. I mainly care about how people interpret what the Bible says. People who don't believe will twist and turn it any way they want and they think the same for us when we tell them otherwise. I just didn't like where the discussion was going about Christians and being a people that tries to destroy people who don't believe in the same things as us.

sanfran22
05-04-2011, 08:31 PM
to be honest, I am more concerned about the truths about Christianity. I don't claim to know a lot about Islam but to me personally, it's not a violent religion. I mainly care about how people interpret what the Bible says. People who don't believe will twist and turn it any way they want and they think the same for us when we tell them otherwise. I just didn't like where the discussion was going about Christians and being a people that tries to destroy people who don't believe in the same things as us.
I hear ya...I think you should look into it more though. In the end it may be a big deal....
I'll leave you all with this
http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2010/10/what-muslim-leaders-say-about-islam.html
and this...
http://www.actforamericaeducation.com/index.php

This is from the mouths of current and ex muslims. Like I've said before, study it, because ignorance is part of the problems we are dealing with today.....
I thinbk I'm done on this disscussion. Made my points. Hang in there Taxman, we're all in this together.....

Wudeverbro
05-04-2011, 08:34 PM
I hear ya...I think you should look into it more though. In the end it may be a big deal....
I'll leave you all with this
http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2010/10/what-muslim-leaders-say-about-islam.html
and this...
http://www.actforamericaeducation.com/index.php

This is from the mouths of current and ex muslims. Like I've said before, study it, because ignorance is part of the problems we are dealing with today.....
I thinbk I'm done on this disscussion. Made my points. Hang in there Taxman, we're all in this together.....

Hey, I'm with you guys too! No one said it was easy to believe in Christ. I'll give it a read but I think it's more beneficial to talk in person with a Muslim or someone who has been a Muslim. Not sure what online source is truly credible.

sanfran22
05-04-2011, 08:39 PM
Hey, I'm with you guys too! No one said it was easy to believe in Christ. I'll give it a read but I think it's more beneficial to talk in person with a Muslim or someone who has been a Muslim. Not sure what online source is truly credible.
Sorry, didn't mean to leave you out.:hug: The sites are from 2 people that were deep into it....It's an interesting read. We all have not been involved deeply in the religion so its good to see someone who has and is reporting what they are preaching.

AUTaxMan
05-04-2011, 09:43 PM
I hear ya...I think you should look into it more though. In the end it may be a big deal....
I'll leave you all with this
http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2010/10/what-muslim-leaders-say-about-islam.html
and this...
http://www.actforamericaeducation.com/index.php

This is from the mouths of current and ex muslims. Like I've said before, study it, because ignorance is part of the problems we are dealing with today.....
I thinbk I'm done on this disscussion. Made my points. Hang in there Taxman, we're all in this together.....

Great stuff there. Very informative. Such a compassionate and peaceful religion, that Islam.

mrveggieman
05-05-2011, 07:28 AM
Dont let me get started on the arguments against Christanity:

http://www.seesharppress.com/20reasons.html
http://humanknowledge.net/Philosophy/Metaphysics/Theology/Christianity.html

My point is that anyone that is hell bent on disproving something can go through great lenghts to disprove it. Just like some of you christians on will go through great lenghts to attempt to disprove islam, the writers of these fromentioned websites are hellbent on disproving christanity. The more you do the more you look like clowns. It's just like my man said on here earlier you look like geeks arguing over whose D&D character is better. You would think that two religions that both teach peace, love, honor and respect for your parents, loving your brothers and sisters, obeying the law and doing right by God would both work together for the betterment of society. Instead they argue over their petty differences such as what color God/Jesus is, what God's correct name is, what direction to face when praying, what day of the week to worship on, how many children if any God has, etc. Oh well to think that they would work together is too much like right.

habsheaven
05-05-2011, 07:57 AM
At the end of the day, ANYONE who says they know the TRUTH is full of crap. I don't care if they are a Christian, Muslim, Atheist or a Witchdoctor for that matter; all they have is an OPINION. And that opinion is NO MORE VALID than the guy next to them. And like it or not, basing an opinion on anything less than FACTS is FOOLISH.

Theodor Madison
05-05-2011, 08:53 AM
Is it shame there are people who die knowing nothing. Or is it at that time when the learning begins. Those who think they know the truth are just fooling themselves, or are they simply foolish. That is the point, if you think you are of this world, you will only know the things of this world and even all those things are not known. If you think you are of a spiritual world, you must be of 1 of the 2, good or evil.

Star_Cards
05-05-2011, 09:15 AM
I like you because you are one of the few christians that I've read on here that makes an ounce of sense. However this is where we disagree somewhat. Most (but not all) atheists are not on a personal crusade to disprove religion. However most religious people are on a personal crusade to prove that their religion is right and if you don't follow theirs exactly as they perscribe you are doomed to hell. Atheists go about their daily business because atheism is not religion and faith means nothing to them. It's just like asking one of us on here about barbie dolls. However if you ask an atheist for their opinion about a religious issue they will tell you what they think. Again I am not an atheist nor am I supporting or endorsing atheism I am just giving respect where respect is due. I think that a lot of christians, muslims, and jews could learn a lot from atheists.

This post is on the mark as far as how I am. I have no agenda. I have no need to convert people or make people feel silly about their beliefs, even if I think they are a bit out there. I actually like the discussion because as much as I like expressing my thoughts and feelings I like to hear others. I like to be able to understand why people believe the way they do. It's not going to really change either of our opinions, but for me it helps show me things from different perspectives. Speaking of agendas, it's really just the religious folks that have an agenda of thinking that their views are the one true way to live that bother me. Everyone just needs to realize that we all have differing beliefs and there's no 100% right or wrong so no one should be forced into anyone's else's as far as laws go.

mrveggieman
05-05-2011, 09:57 AM
Why is it when a muslim does something wrong that want to blame teachings islam or the koran but when a christian does something wrong they either say the person is not a real christian or they want to blame the devil or demons? Well you people please man up and take responsibility for your own evil actions?

sanfran22
05-05-2011, 10:50 AM
Why is it when a muslim does something wrong that want to blame teachings islam or the koran but when a christian does something wrong they either say the person is not a real christian or they want to blame the devil or demons? Well you people please man up and take responsibility for your own evil actions?
Because the religion of Islam is teaching these things. It does not preach to murder the infidel or swine jew in the Bible. No one is perfect. If you are a Christian you will be assulted from all sides of temptation. Doesn't mean you are not a Christian but everyone of us fails on a daily basis. It's why the gift was given.I keep hearing people on this site say why do christians do this and why do they do that. WE ARE ALL HUMAN!!!..........I beg you to please study a bit more. You are showing how much you really don't know on the subject.

sanfran22
05-05-2011, 10:59 AM
This site is so wrong it would be funny if it didn't decieve people such as yourself...
Here's a few quick responses

Jesus' endorsement of the murderous immorality of Yahweh in the Torah;_That's not the bible. It's jewish
Jesus' doctrine of "eternal punishment" in the "eternal fire" of Hell;-The problem?
Jesus' failure to claim actual divinity; (Jesus said...) Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me John 14.11a

I and My Father are one John 10.30
If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also John 14.7a
He who has seen Me has seen the Father John 14.9b
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God…. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth” (John 1:1,14).

Jesus' failed prophecy of his imminent return; Just wait;)

AUTaxMan
05-05-2011, 11:04 AM
This post is on the mark as far as how I am. I have no agenda. I have no need to convert people or make people feel silly about their beliefs, even if I think they are a bit out there. I actually like the discussion because as much as I like expressing my thoughts and feelings I like to hear others. I like to be able to understand why people believe the way they do. It's not going to really change either of our opinions, but for me it helps show me things from different perspectives. Speaking of agendas, it's really just the religious folks that have an agenda of thinking that their views are the one true way to live that bother me. Everyone just needs to realize that we all have differing beliefs and there's no 100% right or wrong so no one should be forced into anyone's else's as far as laws go.

I appreciate your attitude and willingness to listen. I understand that nobody is going to be converted by this discussion, but I think it's a great discussion to have. Thanks for keeping it civil and avoiding sarcasm and insults.

With respect to your latter point, by Christianity's very nature, we have faith that there is only ONE road to eternal life, and that is through Jesus. While we respect everyone's ability to believe whatever they like, we believe (we don't "know" in the common definition of the word) that we are 100% right, as you put it. I am not saying that we possess all the knowledge that the universe holds, but we do have FAITH that Jesus is the only way to salvation. If it could be "proven" that Jesus was the only way to salvation and no faith were required to get there, what would be the point?

I would like to get into the issue about laws, because you really see to be hung up on it, but we haven't really gotten into specifics. What specific legal issues are you talking about?

mrveggieman
05-05-2011, 11:09 AM
Because the religion of Islam is teaching these things. It does not preach to murder the infidel or swine jew in the Bible. No one is perfect. If you are a Christian you will be assulted from all sides of temptation. Doesn't mean you are not a Christian but everyone of us fails on a daily basis. It's why the gift was given.I keep hearing people on this site say why do christians do this and why do they do that. WE ARE ALL HUMAN!!!..........I beg you to please study a bit more. You are showing how much you really don't know on the subject.

And how long have you been a muslim for or attended a mosque to know what muslims teach? Dosen't the bible speak of bearing false witness against thy neighboor? Oh let me guess, you throw that part out because it is in the old testament?

AUTaxMan
05-05-2011, 11:13 AM
And how long have you been a muslim for or attended a mosque to know what muslims teach? Dosen't the bible speak of bearing false witness against thy neighboor? Oh let me guess, you throw that part out because it is in the old testament?

I would venture to say that San Fran is pretty well-read on the subject of Islam. Did you actually read his posts from last night and the links that he shared.

mrveggieman
05-05-2011, 11:17 AM
I would venture to say that San Fran is pretty well-read on the subject of Islam. Did you actually read his posts from last night and the links that he shared.


I've read everything on the discussion. I've read how a lot of you like to misquote someone else's scriptures for your own personal agenda but get mad when someone does it to you. Have you ever heard of the golden rule do unto others as you would have them do unto you? Or do you not believe in that either? You guys have too many double standards for my liking.

AUTaxMan
05-05-2011, 11:24 AM
I've read everything on the discussion. I've read how a lot of you like to misquote someone else's scriptures for your own personal agenda but get mad when someone does it to you. Have you ever heard of the golden rule do unto others as you would have them do unto you? Or do you not believe in that either? You guys have too many double standards for my liking.

What scriptures were misquoted or misconstrued? You seem to be the one with the agenda, because nothing of the sort has happened to my knowledge in this thread.

The only person who has quoted the Koran was sanfran, and he backed up his statements with multiple credible sources on Islam.

mrveggieman
05-05-2011, 11:38 AM
"Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme." (Koran 8:37)
The Koran instructs not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (Koran 5:51) but to war against them: "When the Sacred Months are over, kill those who ascribe partners to God wheresoever ye find them; seize them, encompass them, and ambush them; then if they repent and observe prayer and pay the alms, let them go their way (Koran 4:5). "Fight against those who believe not in God nor in the Last Day, who... refuse allegiance to the True Faith from among those who have received the Book, until they humbly pay tribute out of hand." (Koran 9:29) Note: These verses distinguish between warfare against pagans, and against Jews and Christians.[17] (http://www.dianedew.com/islam-fn.htm)
"...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191); "fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Koran 9:5); "murder them and treat them harshly" (Koran 9:123).
"Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin." (Koran 69:30-37)
"Strike off the heads of the disbelievers"; and after making a "wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" (Koran 47:4).
"Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers"; "smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them" (Koran 8:12; cp. 8:60).
"O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed" (Koran 9:73).
"slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace..." (Koran 5:34).
"for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods" (Koran 22:19-22

You are absolutely right that I have an agenda. My agenda is to expose all of the hyprocracy, doublestandards and down right foolishness that people like to put out here. Why is that you people have a problem with a religion (islam) that is came from Abraham just like your religion (christanity) and the religion that both of them came from (judiasm). Ya'll have a personal agenda to discredit islam by any means neccessary even if it means misquoting scriptures and taking things out of context. But don't dare misquote the bible because that's blasphemy. However it's ok to disregard certian verses in the bible to fit your own agenda. Some one on here a while back accused atheists of having a problem with christianity because they secrectly knew that it was right. Do some of you hardcore islam hating christians have a problem because deep down you feel that islam is the right religion?

AUTaxMan
05-05-2011, 11:45 AM
You are absolutely right that I have an agenda. My agenda is to expose all of the hyprocracy, doublestandards and down right foolishness that people like to put out here. Why is that you people have a problem with a religion (islam) that is came from Abraham just like your religion (christanity) and the religion that both of them came from (judiasm). Ya'll have a personal agenda to discredit islam by any means neccessary even if it means misquoting scriptures and taking things out of context. But don't dare misquote the bible because that's blasphemy. However it's ok to disregard certian verses in the bible to fit your own agenda. Some one on here a while back accused atheists of having a problem with christianity because they secrectly knew that it was right. Do some of you hardcore islam hating christians have a problem because deep down you feel that islam is the right religion?

Please explain how those verses were either misquotes or taken out of context. I am trying to be rational here, and you are getting emotional. We don't hate Islam or Muslims. We are just pointing out their well-documented teachings and reject the proposition that they are of God.

mrveggieman
05-05-2011, 11:58 AM
I am not getting emotional at all and I do aplogize if anyone feels that I was rubbing them the wrong way. I am just calling things as I see them. When dealing with the bible, koran, book of the dead or any book that one considers holy you must understand it in it's proper context. Anyone can pick a particular verse or part of a verse out of a holy book and quote it to serve their particular purpose. I have also studied Islam just like you claimed and no where in my studies or speaking to anyone with knowledge of Islam do they deny God. They may deny that Jesus is the son of god and only a prohphet but last time I checked jews don't accept jesus in any form or fashion. Why is it that christians don't go after jews with the same energy that they go after muslims? Here's a quote from the Koran for you. I know that you are going to throw it out but it makes for some interesting reading.

And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything (good) and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything (good) while they recite the (same) Book. Even thus say those who have no knowledge, like to what they say; so Allah shall judge between them on the day of resurrection in what they differ.

Also I am in no way taking a shot at jews I was only using this as an example. I love everyone and feel that everyone should have the right to worship as they see fit without judgement from man.

sanfran22
05-05-2011, 12:16 PM
I am not getting emotional at all and I do aplogize if anyone feels that I was rubbing them the wrong way. I am just calling things as I see them. When dealing with the bible, koran, book of the dead or any book that one considers holy you must understand it in it's proper context. Anyone can pick a particular verse or part of a verse out of a holy book and quote it to serve their particular purpose. I have also studied Islam just like you claimed and no where in my studies or speaking to anyone with knowledge of Islam do they deny God. They may deny that Jesus is the son of god and only a prohphet but last time I checked jews don't accept jesus in any form or fashion. Why is it that christians don't go after jews with the same energy that they go after muslims? Here's a quote from the Koran for you. I know that you are going to throw it out but it makes for some interesting reading.

And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything (good) and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything (good) while they recite the (same) Book. Even thus say those who have no knowledge, like to what they say; so Allah shall judge between them on the day of resurrection in what they differ.

Also I am in no way taking a shot at jews I was only using this as an example. I love everyone and feel that everyone should have the right to worship as they see fit without judgement from man.
Here's the bottom line that I may not have made evident...There is only 1 way, 1 book and 1 truth. That does not lie with Islam, Buddism, Judaism ect....It is Jesus Christ and the Bible......I've tried to show you the errors of what you talk about, I gaurentee that I've studied and learned more about that religion than most on this board. Feel free to worship what or who you want, I'm not saying you can't. I'm saying that there is only one way to true salvation. Take it or leave it. I would suggest you open your mind and listen to what is being said please......

Wudeverbro
05-05-2011, 12:19 PM
I just want to say that for myself that I don't go around proclaiming the falseness of Islam or any other religion, nor do I think most Christians do. It's just that the ones that do, stick out like a sore thumb and it's easy to use that as ammo against other Christians. If someone engages me about how Christianity is wrong, I'm going to defend it, but that does not mean I am dissing on any non-Christian religion. I just think there's too many generalizations that are being made and all the negativity surrounding a discussion like this is fueled by a select few experiences that people have had.

AUTaxMan
05-05-2011, 12:35 PM
I am not getting emotional at all and I do aplogize if anyone feels that I was rubbing them the wrong way. I am just calling things as I see them. When dealing with the bible, koran, book of the dead or any book that one considers holy you must understand it in it's proper context. Anyone can pick a particular verse or part of a verse out of a holy book and quote it to serve their particular purpose. I have also studied Islam just like you claimed and no where in my studies or speaking to anyone with knowledge of Islam do they deny God. They may deny that Jesus is the son of god and only a prohphet but last time I checked jews don't accept jesus in any form or fashion. Why is it that christians don't go after jews with the same energy that they go after muslims? Here's a quote from the Koran for you. I know that you are going to throw it out but it makes for some interesting reading.

And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything (good) and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything (good) while they recite the (same) Book. Even thus say those who have no knowledge, like to what they say; so Allah shall judge between them on the day of resurrection in what they differ.

Also I am in no way taking a shot at jews I was only using this as an example. I love everyone and feel that everyone should have the right to worship as they see fit without judgement from man.

I am simply asking you to provide evidence that what was posted by sanfran was taken out of context and that the quotes he posted from the religious leaders of Islam were taken out of context. I don't have any doubt that you feel that Islam is a peaceful, non-violent religion, because you haven't been personally assaulted by a Muslim. However, if you are going to claim that sanfran is a hypocrite because he posted the text of the Koran and quotes from Islamic religious scholars supporting his argument, you are going to have to provide more than merely your anecdotal experiences to refute them credibly.

PS - The Jews don't recite the New Testament.

mrveggieman
05-05-2011, 12:38 PM
Here's the bottom line that I may not have made evident...There is only 1 way, 1 book and 1 truth. That does not lie with Islam, Buddism, Judaism ect....It is Jesus Christ and the Bible......I've tried to show you the errors of what you talk about, I gaurentee that I've studied and learned more about that religion than most on this board. Feel free to worship what or who you want, I'm not saying you can't. I'm saying that there is only one way to true salvation. Take it or leave it. I would suggest you open your mind and listen to what is being said please......

Right...so tell me again how is what you just said is any different from what a muslim, jew, budhist, hindu, etc would say about their respective religion?? Are you going to quote Bible verses? Why don't this time instead of quoting the Koran I quote the Egyptian Book of the Dead to show how their religion is superior and how all else is is wrong. Just like one of the previous bloggers on here said none of us really know what is absolutely right and what is absolutely wrong regarding god and religion. We only have our on opinions. Again I hope and pray that no one one here takes anything that I said as a knock against there particular religion but it is what it is.

mrveggieman
05-05-2011, 12:43 PM
I am simply asking you to provide evidence that what was posted by sanfran was taken out of context and that the quotes he posted from the religious leaders of Islam were taken out of context. I don't have any doubt that you feel that Islam is a peaceful, non-violent religion, because you haven't been personally assaulted by a Muslim. However, if you are going to claim that sanfran is a hypocrite because he posted the text of the Koran and quotes from Islamic religious scholars supporting his argument, you are going to have to provide more than merely your anecdotal experiences to refute them credibly.

PS - The Jews don't recite the New Testament.

You are right I have never been physically asulted by a muslim. So if I have would it be ok for me to despise muslims? I have had physical altercations with blacks, whites, christians as well as others. Should I hate them now? That would be pretty stupid since I am also black. And yes I know that Jews don't go by the new testament but they do go by the old testament.

AUTaxMan
05-05-2011, 12:43 PM
Here's the bottom line that I may not have made evident...There is only 1 way, 1 book and 1 truth. That does not lie with Islam, Buddism, Judaism ect....It is Jesus Christ and the Bible......I've tried to show you the errors of what you talk about, I gaurentee that I've studied and learned more about that religion than most on this board. Feel free to worship what or who you want, I'm not saying you can't. I'm saying that there is only one way to true salvation. Take it or leave it. I would suggest you open your mind and listen to what is being said please......

This.

sanfran22
05-05-2011, 12:44 PM
Right...so tell me again how is what you just said is any different from what a muslim, jew, budhist, hindu, etc would say about their respective religion?? Are you going to quote Bible verses? Why don't this time instead of quoting the Koran I quote the Egyptian Book of the Dead to show how their religion is superior and how all else is is wrong. Just like one of the previous bloggers on here said none of us really know what is absolutely right and what is absolutely wrong regarding god and religion. We only have our on opinions. Again I hope and pray that no one one here takes anything that I said as a knock against there particular religion but it is what it is.
One day we will see who is right....I'll take my chances with my choice.

AUTaxMan
05-05-2011, 12:48 PM
You are right I have never been physically asulted by a muslim. So if I have would it be ok for me to despise muslims? I have had physical altercations with blacks, whites, christians as well as others. Should I hate them now? That would be pretty stupid since I am also black. And yes I know that Jews don't go by the new testament but they do go by the old testament.

No, you should love Muslims and everyone else, just like we do. Where did anyone say that they despised Muslims or anyone else for that matter? What does skin color have to do with anything?

mrveggieman
05-05-2011, 12:49 PM
One day we will see who is right....I'll take my chances with my choice.

I can respect your for doing what you feel in your heart is right. My only point is don't knock the next guy for doing what he feels in his heart is right.

mrveggieman
05-05-2011, 12:54 PM
No, you should love Muslims and everyone else, just like we do. Where did anyone say that they despised Muslims or anyone else for that matter? What does skin color have to do with anything?


Skin color dosen't have anything to do with it. My point was that you said that I feel that Islam is a peacful religion because I have never been in a fight with a muslim. Wheather or not I have been in a fight with a muslim would not make me think any more or less of islam. I have been in fights with black people but I cannot hate them since I am also black myself. My point is I'm not going to judge an entire group of people wheather christians, muslims, jews, blacks, whites, or latinos over the actions of a few. Again if anyone felt that I was calling out a certian group of people I apologize. I do not know everyone in the world so it would be impossible to judge every person because of the actions of a few.

AUTaxMan
05-05-2011, 12:56 PM
Skin color dosen't have anything to do with it. My point was that you said that I feel that Islam is a peacful religion because I have never been in a fight with a muslim. Wheather or not I have been in a fight with a muslim would not make me think any more or less of islam. I have been in fights with black people but I cannot hate them since I am also black myself. My point is I'm not going to judge an entire group of people wheather christians, muslims, jews, blacks, whites, or latinos over the actions of a few. Again if anyone felt that I was calling out a certian group of people I apologize. I do not know everyone in the world so it would be impossible to judge every person because of the actions of a few.

I shouldn't have said that, and I wanted to retract it the minute I posted it. My point was that your views of Islam appear to be based more on personal experiences than an actual study of the religion. I could be wrong about that, but it was the impression that I had gotten from your posts.

mrveggieman
05-05-2011, 01:01 PM
I shouldn't have said that, and I wanted to retract it the minute I posted it. My point was that your views of Islam appear to be based more on personal experiences than an actual study of the religion. I could be wrong about that, but it was the impression that I had gotten from your posts.

It's all good. I have studied Islam just like I have Christanity and I have also been around black and white people. Both Islam and Christanity have their good and bad points just like there are some good and bad black and white people. I don't hate on anyone for who they are or what they believe in because I don't have a heaven or hell to put anyone into. I'm trying to get my own mind right.

Wudeverbro
05-05-2011, 01:03 PM
I think everyone who has participated in this discussion should make a trade. :D

mrveggieman
05-05-2011, 01:06 PM
I think everyone who has participated in this discussion should make a trade. :D

I agree. Since you are one of the few voices of reason on here I would like to trade with you. :party0048:

Wudeverbro
05-05-2011, 01:07 PM
I agree. Since you are one of the few voices of reason on here I would like to trade with you. :party0048:

let's make things interesting and make it a 6 way trade, haha

mrveggieman
05-05-2011, 01:12 PM
let's make things interesting and make it a 6 way trade, haha


I'm down. Believe it or not I actually collect those free bible testimony cards that they pass out at football games.

sanfran22
05-05-2011, 01:18 PM
I think everyone who has participated in this discussion should make a trade. :D
lol..... I'll send a muhammed abdul roaf auto card.....Just kidding......:sign0020:
Bad joke I know.

Wudeverbro
05-05-2011, 01:20 PM
lol..... I'll send a muhammed abdul roaf auto card.....Just kidding......:sign0020:
Bad joke I know.

hey man, his first name was mahmoud! and he was awesome for a few years.

sanfran22
05-05-2011, 01:21 PM
:sign0020::party0048:
hey man, his first name was mahmoud! and he was awesome for a few years.
I was close. shoulda just said chris jackson lol.....

mrveggieman
05-05-2011, 01:28 PM
:sign0020::party0048:
I was close. shoulda just said chris jackson lol.....


He was actually one of my favorite ball players back when he used to go to LSU under the name of Chris Jackson. If anybody has any cerfitied autos of him that they want to get rid of I would be glad to take them from you.

habsheaven
05-05-2011, 01:39 PM
I'm up for a trade. Who wants my extra Miro Satan cards?

theonedru
05-05-2011, 01:42 PM
Here's the bottom line that I may not have made evident...There is only 1 way, 1 book and 1 truth. That does not lie with Islam, Buddism, Judaism ect....It is Jesus Christ and the Bible......I've tried to show you the errors of what you talk about, I gaurentee that I've studied and learned more about that religion than most on this board. Feel free to worship what or who you want, I'm not saying you can't. I'm saying that there is only one way to true salvation. Take it or leave it. I would suggest you open your mind and listen to what is being said please......

1. Salvation does not lie with the Bible or Jesus, but your own personal relationship between you and God. Especially not Jesus nor the Bible. As the son of God he is not God and the worship of him as a god is blasphemy to God.

As for the Bible

The bible is book inspired by God but written and interpreted by man thus it cannot be taken as anything but inspirational writings. And besides who is anyone to lay claim that Judaism, Islam or Christianity is the one and only way, saying such is to lay claim to knowing Gods almighty plan and as such we are all ignorant of that, who is to say they are not all different roads to the same destination.

Wudeverbro
05-05-2011, 01:45 PM
1. Salvation does not lie with the Bible or Jesus, but your own personal relationship between you and God. Especially not Jesus nor the Bible. As the son of God he is not God and the worship of him as a god is blasphemy to God.

As for the Bible

The bible is book inspired by God but written and interpreted by man thus it cannot be taken as anything but inspirational writings. And besides who is anyone to lay claim that Judaism, Islam or Christianity is the one and only way, saying such is to lay claim to knowing Gods almighty plan and as such we are all ignorant of that, who is to say they are not all different roads to the same destination.

The only way to have a relationship with God is through his son, Jesus. It isn't blasphemy to worship Jesus.

mrveggieman
05-05-2011, 01:53 PM
The only way to have a relationship with God is through his son, Jesus. It isn't blasphemy to worship Jesus.


I thought that we were almost there on the way to make our blockbuster trade. I will take any Miro Satan rookie cards or we can go back to bickering over which god is the "biggest". Dosen't really matter to me. :sign0020:

Wudeverbro
05-05-2011, 01:54 PM
Oh I am still down to trade. I am always down to trade.

mrveggieman
05-05-2011, 02:03 PM
Not to get off topic but I'm going to go through all my cards and put up a trade list and if anyone wants to trade with me I will listen to and consider all offers. I also sincerely hope and pray that no one on here was offended by anything that I or anyone else said. If I personally offended you I want to apologize for the manner in which I said what I said but not what I said. I would hope that nothing that I said would stop anyone from doing business with me. We can still trade with each other while we argue about God. I really don't think that he would have a problem with that and would actually think that he would like the fact that with so much stuff on the web that is not of god we would take the time to discuss him.

Wudeverbro
05-05-2011, 02:06 PM
Not to get off topic but I'm going to go through all my cards and put up a trade list and if anyone wants to trade with me I will listen to and consider all offers. I also sincerely hope and pray that no one on here was offended by anything that I or anyone else said. If I personally offended you I want to apologize for the manner in which I said what I said but not what I said. I would hope that nothing that I said would stop anyone from doing business with me. We can still trade with each other while we argue about God. I really don't think that he would have a problem with that and would actually think that he would like the fact that with so much stuff on the web that is not of god we would take the time to discuss him.

Indeed. It's clear we're all coming from different areas and beliefs and that is cool. Never hurts to have a conversation with people from different walks. Now let's get that 6 way trade going!

mrveggieman
05-05-2011, 02:12 PM
I'm down. I don't claim to have the greatest cards but I always have something that someone would want to trade for.

mrveggieman
05-05-2011, 02:15 PM
Also where is our good buddy Gatorboymike? It would have been real interesting to have him mix up with us today.

habsheaven
05-05-2011, 02:23 PM
One day we will see who is right....I'll take my chances with my choice.

You make my point exactly. ONE DAY we will see, or we won't. In other words, TODAY you DO NOT know.

mrveggieman
05-05-2011, 02:26 PM
Hey guys let's lighten this up. Let's assume for the sake of argument there is a god. Now for the purposes of this it dosent matter if it is a christian, muslim, or jewish god but whatever god means to you. Assuming there is a god if there is one question you could ask him what would it be? Everyone is welcome to particapate in this part of discussion as well.

gatorboymike
05-05-2011, 02:29 PM
Also where is our good buddy Gatorboymike? It would have been real interesting to have him mix up with us today.

I'll trade you a God Shammgod for an Alaa Abdelnaby.

mrveggieman
05-05-2011, 02:37 PM
I actually could use a God Shamgod rookie card too.

habsheaven
05-05-2011, 02:40 PM
Hey guys let's lighten this up. Let's assume for the sake of argument there is a god. Now for the purposes of this it dosent matter if it is a christian, muslim, or jewish god but whatever god means to you. Assuming there is a god if there is one question you could ask him what would it be? Everyone is welcome to particapate in this part of discussion as well.

I think we would all want to know, WHO'S YOUR DADDY?:sign0020:

mrveggieman
05-05-2011, 02:45 PM
I think we would all want to know, WHO'S YOUR DADDY?:sign0020:

Ok. I would have never thought to ask him that but feel free. What I ask him would be how could I be the best husband and father I could be. That's after I ask him for the winning lotto numbers but I don't think that he would give up that info. :sign0020:

gatorboymike
05-05-2011, 02:59 PM
A question for the supposed god, huh...how about this. "With all the false prophets running around proclaiming their own will as yours, how is someone like me supposed to tell what is really your will? And furthermore, why don't you stop those people from misrepresenting you? And furthermore, how could you expect someone like me to figure out what your will is, given the facts that you give us no way to know what it is and do not stop those false prophets from misrepresenting you?"

mrveggieman
05-05-2011, 03:04 PM
A question for the supposed god, huh...how about this. "With all the false prophets running around proclaiming their own will as yours, how is someone like me supposed to tell what is really your will? And furthermore, why don't you stop those people from misrepresenting you? And furthermore, how could you expect someone like me to figure out what your will is, given the facts that you give us no way to know what it is and do not stop those false prophets from misrepresenting you?"


I always wanted to ask him what the correct way to follow him which was similiar to what you just asked but I wasn't going to go there on this part of the discussion but it look like we are going to open back up that can of worms......

sanfran22
05-05-2011, 03:22 PM
You make my point exactly. ONE DAY we will see, or we won't. In other words, TODAY you DO NOT know.
I think you missed my point.....I do know.

sanfran22
05-05-2011, 03:24 PM
A question for the supposed god, huh...how about this. "With all the false prophets running around proclaiming their own will as yours, how is someone like me supposed to tell what is really your will? And furthermore, why don't you stop those people from misrepresenting you? And furthermore, how could you expect someone like me to figure out what your will is, given the facts that you give us no way to know what it is and do not stop those false prophets from misrepresenting you?"
Just read the Bible and alot of that will be answered...

mrveggieman
05-05-2011, 03:35 PM
Just read the Bible and alot of that will be answered...

Not beating up on christians but how about this. I will direct this to sanfran but anyone feel free to chime in. Let's take it a step further and assume for the sake of argument that christanity is the correct way to become one with god. If I could take a spin on gatorboymikes question lets ask god what's up with all of these false christian prophets like jerry fallwell, terry jones and all of these other clowns? What should we do to counter them and drown out their message of hatred, bigotry, homophobia and intollerance?

habsheaven
05-05-2011, 03:51 PM
Ok. I would have never thought to ask him that but feel free. What I ask him would be how could I be the best husband and father I could be. That's after I ask him for the winning lotto numbers but I don't think that he would give up that info. :sign0020:

I hope you don't seriously need a God to tell you that.

habsheaven
05-05-2011, 03:54 PM
I think you missed my point.....I do know.

I got your point. My older brother used to tell me emphatically that he knew there was a Santa Claus too. Guess what? He was wrong. BELIEF and KNOWLEDGE are two separate things. Too many religious people prefer to confuse the two.

mrveggieman
05-05-2011, 04:17 PM
I hope you don't seriously need a God to tell you that.

I am a good husband and father but I am far from perfect and I believe that any advice that God would give me about marriage, fatherhood or any other subject would be beneficial.

gatorboymike
05-05-2011, 04:36 PM
Just read the Bible and alot of that will be answered...

Well, I don't know what the Bible says about that, but I know what Christians say. Christians say "I just feel it in my heart that this is what God wants." Which means nothing. That's just code for "I'm only going to listen to things I like to hear and things that make me feel good about myself" and/or "I'm just going to go with my gut feelings and that's that." Sorry, your feelings don't matter, and your feelings can't show you what is true and false. Everyone who's ever done some horrible thing in the name of their religion just "felt it in their heart" that the terrible thing was actually good.

And by the way, no, you DON'T know. I know you say you do. I don't care. You don't. If you did, you could prove it. As a certain someone said, "If you can't show it, then you don't know it."

mrveggieman
05-05-2011, 04:43 PM
Well, I don't know what the Bible says about that, but I know what Christians say. Christians say "I just feel it in my heart that this is what God wants." Which means nothing. That's just code for "I'm only going to listen to things I like to hear and things that make me feel good about myself" and/or "I'm just going to go with my gut feelings and that's that." Sorry, your feelings don't matter, and your feelings can't show you what is true and false. Everyone who's ever done some horrible thing in the name of their religion just "felt it in their heart" that the terrible thing was actually good.

And by the way, no, you DON'T know. I know you say you do. I don't care. You don't. If you did, you could prove it. As a certain someone said, "If you can't show it, then you don't know it."


Why don't you tell us what's really on your mind GBM? :sign0020:

theonedru
05-05-2011, 05:56 PM
The only way to have a relationship with God is through his son, Jesus. It isn't blasphemy to worship Jesus.

It is when your replacing God with Jesus as the main focus of your faith. This is the biggest discrepancy that Christans ignore without realization that you see Jesus and God as one but different which makes absolutly no sense as if it were to be true it would rip apart other facets of Christianity (ie easter which has already been proven as a non christian holiday, along with Christmas and other such events. Now if the Bible were to be true to fact then Why has Christianity taken so much from other religions to incorperate into their own, Even Jesus the focus of the faith was Jewish who followed Jewish law and such. .

mrveggieman
05-06-2011, 07:29 AM
It is when your replacing God with Jesus as the main focus of your faith. This is the biggest discrepancy that Christans ignore without realization that you see Jesus and God as one but different which makes absolutly no sense as if it were to be true it would rip apart other facets of Christianity (ie easter which has already been proven as a non christian holiday, along with Christmas and other such events. Now if the Bible were to be true to fact then Why has Christianity taken so much from other religions to incorperate into their own, Even Jesus the focus of the faith was Jewish who followed Jewish law and such. .

I hate to beat on a dead horse :sign0020: but could someone explain why christians put up christmas trees despite of this?

Jeremiah 10:3-5 (New International Version, ©2011)


3 For the practices of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
5 Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”

Star_Cards
05-06-2011, 09:48 AM
I hate to beat on a dead horse :sign0020: but could someone explain why christians put up christmas trees despite of this?

Jeremiah 10:3-5 (New International Version, ©2011)


3 For the practices of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
5 Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”

I can't speak for christians, but for a lot of people, the christmas tradition has evolved away from religious meaning. For some it's a time to get together with family. For me I don't set up a tree but I still do the christmas thing. We always did as a family when I was younger so there's some meaning in that tradition now that some of that family is no longer with us. For me it's more of a personal tradition rather than one recognizing the birth of jesus.

mrveggieman
05-06-2011, 10:00 AM
I can't speak for christians, but for a lot of people, the christmas tradition has evolved away from religious meaning. For some it's a time to get together with family. For me I don't set up a tree but I still do the christmas thing. We always did as a family when I was younger so there's some meaning in that tradition now that some of that family is no longer with us. For me it's more of a personal tradition rather than one recognizing the birth of jesus.


Yeah some people don't even call it christmas they call it x-mas. Christmas has evolved to more of a secular holiday which could be considered a good or a bad thing depending on who you ask.

Star_Cards
05-06-2011, 11:40 AM
Yeah some people don't even call it christmas they call it x-mas. Christmas has evolved to more of a secular holiday which could be considered a good or a bad thing depending on who you ask.

definitely much more secular in my family as well as many others. I say celebrate christmas how you see fit.

mrveggieman
05-06-2011, 11:46 AM
definitely much more secular in my family as well as many others. I say celebrate christmas how you see fit.


Agree. I was curious though to get a biblical explanation from our Christian brothers on here about the Christmas tree prohibition in Jeramiah. I hope that we didn't scare them all away. :sign0020:

Star_Cards
05-06-2011, 01:43 PM
Agree. I was curious though to get a biblical explanation from our Christian brothers on here about the Christmas tree prohibition in Jeramiah. I hope that we didn't scare them all away. :sign0020:

nah. they don't scare easy... at least not from mortals. I kid, I kid! :)

*censored*
05-06-2011, 02:49 PM
Yeah some people don't even call it christmas they call it x-mas.

X-mas is just a shorthand version of Christmas. It can be traced to the Greek letter chi (X), the first letter in the Greek version of Christ.

No one's using it to remove Christ from Christmas, or whatever the religious right wants to claim to push their agenda (not saying you are, just mentioning it because it's been claimed in other places). It's just shorthand.

Christmas isn't even a Christian holiday per se anyway. Christ, if he actually existed, was likely born in February based on the descriptions of the night on which he was born in the New Testament. The Winter Solstice, by various names (Saturnalia being a major one), was celebrated for thousands of years before the days in which Christ was believed to have lived. You'll notice that with several "Christian" holidays.

mrveggieman
05-06-2011, 03:10 PM
X-mas is just a shorthand version of Christmas. It can be traced to the Greek letter chi (X), the first letter in the Greek version of Christ.

No one's using it to remove Christ from Christmas, or whatever the religious right wants to claim to push their agenda (not saying you are, just mentioning it because it's been claimed in other places). It's just shorthand.

Christmas isn't even a Christian holiday per se anyway. Christ, if he actually existed, was likely born in February based on the descriptions of the night on which he was born in the New Testament. The Winter Solstice, by various names (Saturnalia being a major one), was celebrated for thousands of years before the days in which Christ was believed to have lived. You'll notice that with several "Christian" holidays.

Yeah I actually heard that before. I went to a bible class once and the guy was teaching us based on biblical info that Jesus was likely born during the spring. Also I know that December 25 is chosen as the date to celebrate Jesus birth to compete with a Pagan God named mirtha who's birthday was also celebrated on December 25.

tutall
05-07-2011, 02:57 PM
As you wish, but personally, I couldn't live with myself if I said that to myself.
...
for one who hates being persecuted by the christians you sure do talk a big game... How about you believe what you want to believe and respect the opinions of others... You know... kinda of like you would appreciate if christians did

I always find it funny that the ones screaming not to preach to them are the same ones that will sit around and tell you why god is not real

As far as the questions regarding what to do to counter the christian extremists... I think it is being done... Being against the minority isnt really news though. They get on tv because of their news making... If i go to a rally to discredit one of them why would a news truck come out and film it? it is the same thing 99 percent of people already think

mrveggieman
05-07-2011, 07:42 PM
...
for one who hates being persecuted by the christians you sure do talk a big game... How about you believe what you want to believe and respect the opinions of others... You know... kinda of like you would appreciate if christians did

I always find it funny that the ones screaming not to preach to them are the same ones that will sit around and tell you why god is not real

As far as the questions regarding what to do to counter the christian extremists... I think it is being done... Being against the minority isnt really news though. They get on tv because of their news making... If i go to a rally to discredit one of them why would a news truck come out and film it? it is the same thing 99 percent of people already think

Agree. You know I don't like any type of extremist. Weather its a christian, muslim, jewish, budhist, atheist, racist or any other type of extremist. I belive in live and let live. :winking0071:

gatorboymike
05-07-2011, 11:04 PM
...
for one who hates being persecuted by the christians you sure do talk a big game... How about you believe what you want to believe and respect the opinions of others... You know... kinda of like you would appreciate if christians did

I always find it funny that the ones screaming not to preach to them are the same ones that will sit around and tell you why god is not real

Respect is not deserved, it is earned. So far they haven't earned it. What they have earned is digust, contempt, hostility and dismissal. Even when I do offer them respect, they don't offer it to me. So what then, I'm obligated to respect them but they're not obligated to respect me? Forget that.

And as long as there are people out there trying to cram their religion into society's every orifice, you better be sure I'm going to fight back. You want America to end up like Iran?

tutall
05-08-2011, 10:48 AM
Respect is not deserved, it is earned. So far they haven't earned it. What they have earned is digust, contempt, hostility and dismissal. Even when I do offer them respect, they don't offer it to me. So what then, I'm obligated to respect them but they're not obligated to respect me? Forget that.

And as long as there are people out there trying to cram their religion into society's every orifice, you better be sure I'm going to fight back. You want America to end up like Iran?

I want you to show at least a little respect for the people on this board who respect your opinion. It isnt a matter of earning anything... Its being a decent human being who is tolerant enough to understand different people have different opinions.

AUTaxMan
05-08-2011, 10:33 PM
I want you to show at least a little respect for the people on this board who respect your opinion. It isnt a matter of earning anything... Its being a decent human being who is tolerant enough to understand different people have different opinions.

Don't waste your time on GBM. He has been met with nothing but civility and respect by the Christians in this thread, and he has responded by basically calling us idiots for believing what we do. We have all heard his well-reasoned opinions about various issues, and those who have disagreed with him have made reasoned responses. His retort is to call anyone who disagrees with him a fool and says we are trying to cram religion down his throat. For the record, we were all having a civil and productive discussion until he brought his tripe along. He is here to flame the thread and nothing more. Ignore him.

mrveggieman
05-08-2011, 11:02 PM
Don't waste your time on GBM. He has been met with nothing but civility and respect by the Christians in this thread, and he has responded by basically calling us idiots for believing what we do. We have all heard his well-reasoned opinions about various issues, and those who have disagreed with him have made reasoned responses. His retort is to call anyone who disagrees with him a fool and says we are trying to cram religion down his throat. For the record, we were all having a civil and productive discussion until he brought his tripe along. He is here to flame the thread and nothing more. Ignore him.

I have to disagree. I really don't believe that GBM is here to flame the board. In this discussion we have strong christians like yourself, strong non believers like GBM and people like myself who are right down the middle. There is room for all of us on here. Let's not catch feelings, understand that a lot of the time we are not going to agree with each other, no one is trying to convert or deconvert anyone and finally remember this is just a leisure activity and not to take this discussion too seriously. If we can all do that we will enjoy this blog and believe it or not actually learn from each other.

Wudeverbro
05-08-2011, 11:15 PM
I have to disagree. I really don't believe that GBM is here to flame the board. In this discussion we have strong christians like yourself, strong non believers like GBM and people like myself who are right down the middle. There is room for all of us on here. Let's not catch feelings, understand that a lot of the time we are not going to agree with each other, no one is trying to convert or deconvert anyone and finally remember this is just a leisure activity and not to take this discussion too seriously. If we can all do that we will enjoy this blog and believe it or not actually learn from each other.

I agree we can learn from one another but I don't think you can honestly say GBM never insulted what some of us Christians believe in. I chose to not respond to some of his comments but I know that others have called him out on it. There comes a point in time where nothing else can really be said without fanning the flames, which is why I stopped saying anything.

mrveggieman
05-08-2011, 11:23 PM
I agree we can learn from one another but I don't think you can honestly say GBM never insulted what some of us Christians believe in. I chose to not respond to some of his comments but I know that others have called him out on it. There comes a point in time where nothing else can really be said without fanning the flames, which is why I stopped saying anything.


You are right some of what he said may have been over the top but to be perfectly honest all of us (myself included) except for you have said something on here that rubbed someone the wrong way. Religion just like politics is a hot button topic and naturally people are going to get their feathers ruffled when their respective religion is discussed in a way that they disagree with. We just have to take it with a grain of salt and keep it moving.

Wudeverbro
05-08-2011, 11:33 PM
It's true that religion is a hot button topic but people just need to learn how to communicate in gentler ways. I've said it before but how hard is it to say, "I hear your side of the argument but this is what I think and this is why it refutes that..."

I totally respect people's decision to not believe. A lot of it doesn't really make sense. But there comes a point where you just believe it.

mrveggieman
05-09-2011, 07:37 AM
Once again I would like to offer an apology on my behalf to both sides of the argument from both sides of the argument for anything that anyone has said that offended anyone. I hope and pray to no one here was trying to offend anyone purpose and really would like to continue this discussion in a civil way. We are all adults and everyone has the right to be treated and respect like an adult. We all have different viewpoints on religion and this is a good educational tool for all of us.

AUTaxMan
05-09-2011, 10:40 AM
Once again I would like to offer an apology on my behalf to both sides of the argument from both sides of the argument for anything that anyone has said that offended anyone. I hope and pray to no one here was trying to offend anyone purpose and really would like to continue this discussion in a civil way. We are all adults and everyone has the right to be treated and respect like an adult. We all have different viewpoints on religion and this is a good educational tool for all of us.

You don't have anything to apologize for. Neither you, nor anyone else in this thread, has stepped over the line but GBM. Let's keep the discussion going.

mrveggieman
05-09-2011, 11:30 AM
Let me post this question to the group that I "borrowed" from another discussion board. According this this website http://www.familyradio.com/index2.html the world as we know it is coming to an end this month per their bible research. My question which I am directing to the christians on board but again anyone with an opinion please chime in is it ok for people to use the bible to predict the date of doomsday? Why or why not? Feel free to provide any scripture that you like supporting your case.

Wudeverbro
05-09-2011, 12:21 PM
Let me post this question to the group that I "borrowed" from another discussion board. According this this website http://www.familyradio.com/index2.html the world as we know it is coming to an end this month per their bible research. My question which I am directing to the christians on board but again anyone with an opinion please chime in is it ok for people to use the bible to predict the date of doomsday? Why or why not? Feel free to provide any scripture that you like supporting your case.

I don't believe there is anything in the Bible that gives any clues as to the exact date of a supposed doomsday. There are precursors to the end times but no actual dates that would warn us when stuff is about to hit the fan. So for those using the Bible to predict the date, just another group misinterpreting the Bible.

habsheaven
05-09-2011, 01:08 PM
Simple answer to your question is, yes of course it's ok. People are free to say what they want and reference whatever they want as justification for saying it. The better question is, Is it okay to believe them?

mrveggieman
05-09-2011, 01:14 PM
If I could spin in on my own question legally you can intrepret scripture for whatever you want as long as you are not violating any laws but they have no credibility in my book because in the same bible they are using to predict doomsday it says that no man knows the day or the hour. I also don't think that God will tell us the when the world will come to an end because it would cause mass chaos. And besides it would take all the fun out of it if we knew when it was all coming to an end.

gatorboymike
05-09-2011, 02:15 PM
As was stated previously, scripture itself says that only God knows when the world is going to end. If you accept that idea, then you are necessarily obligated to also accept that you do not, and can never possibly, know when the world is going to end. Therefore, anyone who claims to be a Christian and claims that they know when the world is going to end, is either ignorant of what the book they claim to revere says, or they think they know better than the god they claim to believe in, or they don't really believe any of it and they're just trying to exploit people for fame and money, which I suspect is the case with these radio people. And if you think otherwise, I suggest you call them and offer to make them a large donation on May 22nd and see what they say.

And by the way, it's not my fault if someone is just too touchy to tell the difference between criticizing their beliefs and attacking them personally. And it's not my fault if someone wants to spin a criticism of their beliefs into an attack on them personally because they can't defend their beliefs rationally and they know it. You are not your beliefs. Your beliefs are not you. And if you've just immersed yourself so deeply in them that you think you ARE your beliefs, then I'm afraid you're going to get your feelings hurt a lot in life because you won't be able to tell the difference.

*censored*
05-09-2011, 02:23 PM
Let me post this question to the group that I "borrowed" from another discussion board. According this this website http://www.familyradio.com/index2.html the world as we know it is coming to an end this month per their bible research. My question which I am directing to the christians on board but again anyone with an opinion please chime in is it ok for people to use the bible to predict the date of doomsday? Why or why not? Feel free to provide any scripture that you like supporting your case.

Matthew 25: 13, "Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man comes."

In other words, anyone claiming to know the date of the end is probably full of it.

Aikman_TheGreat
05-11-2011, 04:44 AM
As was stated previously, scripture itself says that only God knows when the world is going to end. If you accept that idea, then you are necessarily obligated to also accept that you do not, and can never possibly, know when the world is going to end. Therefore, anyone who claims to be a Christian and claims that they know when the world is going to end, is either ignorant of what the book they claim to revere says, or they think they know better than the god they claim to believe in, or they don't really believe any of it and they're just trying to exploit people for fame and money, which I suspect is the case with these radio people. And if you think otherwise, I suggest you call them and offer to make them a large donation on May 22nd and see what they say.

.

Saved me a lot of typing, very well said.

The leading cause to people being against Christians are Christians, or "Christians", themselves.

mrveggieman
05-12-2011, 08:01 AM
Hey guys let's open this up a little bit. I am interested in knowing everyones favorite bible verse and or bible story. Please quote the verse, explain it in your own words and why you like it. I am also going to open this up to everyone so you can quote the bible, koran, book of morman or whatever holy book your prefer. Feel free to coment or ask questions but please be respectful. Thanks.

mrveggieman
05-16-2011, 01:00 PM
Here's a something that I always wondered about that I want to ask the group. Anyone with an opinion feel free to chime in. Say a man and a woman are married. The man dies and goes to heaven. Later on the woman and her new husband die. Assuming all 3 go to heaven when they die who will the woman be married to in the afterlife?

sanfran22
05-16-2011, 01:02 PM
Here's a something that I always wondered about that I want to ask the group. Anyone with an opinion feel free to chime in. Say a man and a woman are married. The man dies and goes to heaven. Later on the woman and her new husband die. Assuming all 3 go to heaven when they die who will the woman be married to in the afterlife?
There is no marriage in the afterlife.

theonedru
05-16-2011, 01:03 PM
Here's a something that I always wondered about that I want to ask the group. Anyone with an opinion feel free to chime in. Say a man and a woman are married. The man dies and goes to heaven. Later on the woman and her new husband die. Assuming all 3 go to heaven when they die who will the woman be married to in the afterlife?

I dont think marriage could exist in heaven, otherwise would it really be heaven?

mrveggieman
05-16-2011, 01:22 PM
There is no marriage in the afterlife.


Not disputing what you just said but where did get that from? I am curious.

mrveggieman
05-16-2011, 01:24 PM
I dont think marriage could exist in heaven, otherwise would it really be heaven?

:sign0020:

shortking98
05-16-2011, 01:29 PM
Here's a something that I always wondered about that I want to ask the group. Anyone with an opinion feel free to chime in. Say a man and a woman are married. The man dies and goes to heaven. Later on the woman and her new husband die. Assuming all 3 go to heaven when they die who will the woman be married to in the afterlife?

This is a very similar question to that asked by the Sadducees in Matt 22, Mark 12, Luke 20 (parallel accounts of the same incident)

tutall
05-16-2011, 02:48 PM
I dont think marriage could exist in heaven, otherwise would it really be heaven?

:sign0020:

sanfran22
05-16-2011, 03:13 PM
Not disputing what you just said but where did get that from? I am curious.
Here's the cut and paste version, lol...
http://www.openbible.info/topics/marriage_in_heaven

mrveggieman
05-16-2011, 03:30 PM
Thanks that's very interesting. I am man enough to say that I learned something new on here.

sanfran22
05-16-2011, 07:35 PM
Thanks that's very interesting. I am man enough to say that I learned something new on here.
Lol, I think we all learn something new on here just about everyday:winking0071::sign0020:

habsheaven
05-16-2011, 09:05 PM
What did you both just learn? That there is scripture that can be interpreted to suggest there is no marriage in Heaven? I wonder how the two souls that spent 75 years in wedlock feel about that when they get there?

mrveggieman - I like the "practicality" of most of your questions. You should look for "practical" answers though.

mrveggieman
05-16-2011, 10:16 PM
What did you both just learn? That there is scripture that can be interpreted to suggest there is no marriage in Heaven? I wonder how the two souls that spent 75 years in wedlock feel about that when they get there?

mrveggieman - I like the "practicality" of most of your questions. You should look for "practical" answers though.


Thanks. As far as what I learned is what Christians believe will happen to a marriage after one dies. I am also curious to hear from anyone of other faiths such as judiasm, islam, or anything else for that matter to hear what they have to say about the subject if there are any jews or muslims on here. Don't worry I'll make sure that everyone minds their manners on here. :winking0071:

mrveggieman
05-17-2011, 01:33 PM
I was on facebook and there were discussing that fool Harold Campings and his doomsday predictions. Someone also posted the following link where a "church" and I use that word very loosley posted a bunch of scripture that they used as justification for racism and segragation. My question to the group how would you counter someone using scripture to promote their racist and hateful agenda or do you actually agree with what they are saying? Then the so called church actually had the gall to post a message saying come and worship with us. The nerve of some people.

http://newchristiancrusadechurch.com/sermons/sermon3.htm

Wudeverbro
05-17-2011, 01:37 PM
Short and quick answer to that is, how is that showing love to people? Jesus walked amongst lepers, Gentiles, Jews, etc. He may have rebuked people (Pharisees) but he never showed a lack of love towards people of all races. There's absolutely nothing in the Word that justifies segregation and racism.

mrveggieman
05-17-2011, 01:42 PM
Short and quick answer to that is, how is that showing love to people? Jesus walked amongst lepers, Gentiles, Jews, etc. He may have rebuked people (Pharisees) but he never showed a lack of love towards people of all races. There's absolutely nothing in the Word that justifies segregation and racism.


Can I get an amen!!

Wudeverbro
05-17-2011, 01:45 PM
My small group is going through Galatians right now and the first chapter is centered on warning people to be aware of false teachers. I'd include these people you mentioned above in that category of false teachers.

mrveggieman
05-18-2011, 07:32 AM
Here's an interesting article about dinosaurs being explained biblically. I'm just putting it out there. Feel free to post your own conclusions:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/1999/11/05/dinosaurs-and-the-bible

habsheaven
05-18-2011, 08:02 AM
The fact that religious people still try to sell the "6,000 year old Earth" theory PROVES that religion is nothing but FANTASY.

mrveggieman
05-18-2011, 08:30 AM
I'm not going to agree nor disagree with the article claiming that dinosaurs are only 6000 years old and lived along side humans because I wasn't there and honestly don't have enough information on it to say one way or another. I do like how the author quoted one of my favorite bible verses genesis 1:29-30 teaching that the original animals and humans were commanded to be vegetarian and everyone and everything lived in perfect harmony. It's just too bad that most people don't think like that now a days. Now I'm going to sit back and await for someone to come at me with a verse in the new testament to counter Gen 1:29-30 to justify their unhealthy and cruel diet and lifestyle.

AUTaxMan
05-18-2011, 08:49 AM
The fact that religious people still try to sell the "6,000 year old Earth" theory PROVES that religion is nothing but FANTASY.

I don't agree with the theory, but how exactly does it prove that religion is fantasy?

AUTaxMan
05-18-2011, 08:52 AM
Now I'm going to sit back and await for someone to come at me with a verse in the new testament to counter Gen 1:29-30 to justify their unhealthy and cruel diet and lifestyle.

There is a verse... :winking0071:

AUTaxMan
05-18-2011, 08:53 AM
Now I'm going to sit back and await for someone to come at me with a verse in the new testament to counter Gen 1:29-30 to justify their unhealthy and cruel diet and lifestyle.

There is a verse... :winking0071:

shortking98
05-18-2011, 08:58 AM
I'm not going to agree nor disagree with the article claiming that dinosaurs are only 6000 years old and lived along side humans because I wasn't there and honestly don't have enough information on it to say one way or another. I do like how the author quoted one of my favorite bible verses genesis 1:29-30 teaching that the original animals and humans were commanded to be vegetarian and everyone and everything lived in perfect harmony. It's just too bad that most people don't think like that now a days. Now I'm going to sit back and await for someone to come at me with a verse in the new testament to counter Gen 1:29-30 to justify their unhealthy and cruel diet and lifestyle.

Certainly there are New Testament verses but you don't have to go that far. Just look at Genesis 9:3 for the progression

mrveggieman
05-18-2011, 08:58 AM
There is a verse... :winking0071:


Well please don't keep us waiting on it.....

mrveggieman
05-18-2011, 09:03 AM
Certainly there are New Testament verses but you don't have to go that far. Just look at Genesis 9:3 for the progression


"Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things." Genesis 9:3. So using that same logic cannibalism is acceptable accepted per that verse.

AUTaxMan
05-18-2011, 09:08 AM
"Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things." Genesis 9:3. So using that same logic cannibalism is acceptable accepted per that verse.

Yes, the Bible teaches cannibalism.

mrveggieman
05-18-2011, 09:13 AM
Yes, the Bible teaches cannibalism.


You said it not me. :sign0020:

shortking98
05-18-2011, 09:18 AM
"Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things." Genesis 9:3. So using that same logic cannibalism is acceptable accepted per that verse.

From the context in verse 2 and then after verse 3 it seems to me that this refers to animals and not cannibalism. Would you agree or do you read it differently?

mrveggieman
05-18-2011, 09:36 AM
From the context in verse 2 and then after verse 3 it seems to me that this refers to animals and not cannibalism. Would you agree or do you read it differently?


I've read verses 2-10 and to be perfectly honest it was kind of ambigious to me. I could be suggested that God was referring not to eat other humans but since everything that walks, flies, crawls, etc has life it could also be argued that verse 3 contridicts verse 4 and therefore you should not eat any animal or human for that matter. So since both verses conflict with each other why not go back to gen 1:29-30?

shortking98
05-18-2011, 09:42 AM
I've read verses 2-10 and to be perfectly honest it was kind of ambigious to me. I could be suggested that God was referring not to eat other humans but since everything that walks, flies, crawls, etc has life it could also be argued that verse 3 contridicts verse 4 and therefore you should not eat any animal or human for that matter. So since both verses conflict with each other why not go back to gen 1:29-30?

I think that the end of verse 3 implies that meat is acceptable to eat now just as plants were acceptable to eat before and that this is a change. There are also many instances where meat was eaten throughout the Old and New Testament and why the need for laws governing clean and unclean animals if only plants were still to be eaten?

mrveggieman
05-18-2011, 09:49 AM
I think that the end of verse 3 implies that meat is acceptable to eat now just as plants were acceptable to eat before and that this is a change. There are also many instances where meat was eaten throughout the Old and New Testament and why the need for laws governing clean and unclean animals if only plants were still to be eaten?


That's all good and all but per Gen 9:4: "4But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat." dosen't clearly state what God was referring to. I understand that people ate meat throughout the bible, but they also committed fornication, homosexuality, incest, murder, bore false witness, etc. Are you suggesting that any of those activites are correct since they took place in the bible?

habsheaven
05-18-2011, 09:53 AM
I'm not going to agree nor disagree with the article claiming that dinosaurs are only 6000 years old and lived along side humans because I wasn't there and honestly don't have enough information on it to say one way or another. I do like how the author quoted one of my favorite bible verses genesis 1:29-30 teaching that the original animals and humans were commanded to be vegetarian and everyone and everything lived in perfect harmony. It's just too bad that most people don't think like that now a days. Now I'm going to sit back and await for someone to come at me with a verse in the new testament to counter Gen 1:29-30 to justify their unhealthy and cruel diet and lifestyle.

Really??? Have you ever looked for more information?

mrveggieman
05-18-2011, 10:11 AM
Really??? Have you ever looked for more information?

Ok you got me. Let me correct myself. I have read from some christians who believe the the earth is only 6000 years old and that humans and dinosuars roamed the earth together and I have also read everything that I was taught in school and read from conventional science that says that dinosaurs walked the earth for millions of years before the first human was even thought of. I'm going to go back to my original post and state that I wasn't there millions of years ago let alone 6000 years ago so therefore I don't know what really happened and both science and religion can neither say with 100% certanity what really went on they can only give their views based on their own personal beliefs.

shortking98
05-18-2011, 10:13 AM
That's all good and all but per Gen 9:4: "4But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat." dosen't clearly state what God was referring to. I understand that people ate meat throughout the bible, but they also committed fornication, homosexuality, incest, murder, bore false witness, etc. Are you suggesting that any of those activites are correct since they took place in the bible?

No I am not suggesting those are acceptable since they are clearly defined as wrong whereas I see no such prohibitions defined regarding meat. In regards to verse 4, eating of the blood was not allowed by the law which is what I see this as referring to, not saying that meat could not be eaten.

habsheaven
05-18-2011, 10:28 AM
Ok you got me. Let me correct myself. I have read from some christians who believe the the earth is only 6000 years old and that humans and dinosuars roamed the earth together and I have also read everything that I was taught in school and read from conventional science that says that dinosaurs walked the earth for millions of years before the first human was even thought of. I'm going to go back to my original post and state that I wasn't there millions of years ago let alone 6000 years ago so therefore I don't know what really happened and both science and religion can neither say with 100% certanity what really went on they can only give their views based on their own personal beliefs.

You are saying both theories are not 100% certain therefore they are equally unsubstantiated. And since you were not around you do not know what is correct. Then I am to assume, you do not know ANY of the Bible to be correct. Right?

mrveggieman
05-18-2011, 11:06 AM
No I am not suggesting those are acceptable since they are clearly defined as wrong whereas I see no such prohibitions defined regarding meat. In regards to verse 4, eating of the blood was not allowed by the law which is what I see this as referring to, not saying that meat could not be eaten.


So like the other guy said earlier about the bible teaching canabalism is that ok as long as you don't drink the blood? I'm not a biblical expert but one would think that since the blood and flesh come from the same thing there would be no difference between eating the flesh and drinking the blood.

mrveggieman
05-18-2011, 11:11 AM
You are saying both theories are not 100% certain therefore they are equally unsubstantiated. And since you were not around you do not know what is correct. Then I am to assume, you do not know ANY of the Bible to be correct. Right?


Ha Ha. :sign0020: I am only saying that there are a lot of things in scripture and in the rest of the world that I do not understand and that I am man enough to admit it. I also believe that the bible that most of us read is only a translation and there is a very good possiblity that some of the original message may have been lost in translation.

shortking98
05-18-2011, 11:16 AM
So like the other guy said earlier about the bible teaching canabalism is that ok as long as you don't drink the blood? I'm not a biblical expert but one would think that since the blood and flesh come from the same thing there would be no difference between eating the flesh and drinking the blood.

I disagree with that poster, I do not think that passage is condoning cannibalism. The context seems to indicate that the passage is referring to eating animals not cannibalism

AUTaxMan
05-18-2011, 11:21 AM
Are we really having a serious discussion over whether the bible condones cannibalism? Use some common sense, people.

habsheaven
05-18-2011, 11:28 AM
Ha Ha. :sign0020: I am only saying that there are a lot of things in scripture and in the rest of the world that I do not understand and that I am man enough to admit it. I also believe that the bible that most of us read is only a translation and there is a very good possiblity that some of the original message may have been lost in translation.

Me too.

mrveggieman
05-18-2011, 11:28 AM
Yes, the Bible teaches cannibalism.


I'm just going by this previous quote. I would think that most christians don't practice canibalism but I have learned a lot my participating in this forum. :sign0020:

AUTaxMan
05-18-2011, 11:32 AM
I'm just going by this previous quote. I would think that most christians don't practice canibalism but I have learned a lot my participating in this forum. :sign0020:

i was being facetious

gatorboymike
05-18-2011, 04:22 PM
The "if you weren't there, then you don't know" argument is a terrible argument.

mrveggieman
05-19-2011, 07:23 AM
The "if you weren't there, then you don't know" argument is a terrible argument.


I have to disagree with you. It's the way it is. None of us were around during Biblical days or pre historic days. We only have to go by science, religious scripture and stories that were passed down from our forefathers. Each of them have been proven wrong over time. So each of us have to do our own research and come up with our own conclusions. I don't claim to know it all in regards to science or religion so I like to hear both sides of the argument so I can learn.

mrveggieman
05-19-2011, 07:29 AM
Hey fam here's my religious question for the day that anyone may answer. If person regardless of their religious preference committs a hate crime in the name of religion and murders someone what type of penalty should they get? And remember everyone has committed a hate crime in the name of religion so don't even think that YOUR religion or lack of one is excluded.

AUTaxMan
05-19-2011, 08:27 AM
Hey fam here's my religious question for the day that anyone may answer. If person regardless of their religious preference committs a hate crime in the name of religion and murders someone what type of penalty should they get? And remember everyone has committed a hate crime in the name of religion so don't even think that YOUR religion or lack of one is excluded.

They should get whatever kind of penalty the law demands.

mrveggieman
05-19-2011, 08:56 AM
Ok let me rephrase my question. Say that you are a law maker. What type of penalties would you perscribe for people who murder in the name of religion?

AUTaxMan
05-19-2011, 09:01 AM
There shouldn't be a special penalty for people who kill in the name of religion.

mrveggieman
05-19-2011, 09:37 AM
There shouldn't be a special penalty for people who kill in the name of religion.


I believe so that there should be. If you commit any type of hate crime and kill someone weather it be for religion, racial hatred, hatred of gays or anyting similar you should be subject to death. The reason why if you feel so strongly in what you believe in that you feel the need to take someone's life you should have no problem dying for what you believe in.

ensbergcollector
05-19-2011, 11:20 AM
I tend to struggle with the idea of hate crime. Mainly because the enforcement of the law often times becomes very political. If a murder victim is gay, does that mean he was killed because he was gay? Same for race, religion, etc.
Murder is murder, regardless of reason. If you murdered out of hate for a person, the penalty should be equal IMO.

I am impressed this thread has gone on this long without being shut down. Much gratitude to everyone for keeping it relatively civil.

habsheaven
05-19-2011, 11:41 AM
Many jurisdictions do have different sentencing guidelines for crimes deemed "hate" crimes. I do not have a problem with this if it can be proven that "hate" was the motivating factor in the perpetrator's actions. But as stated above, you can't automatically conclude a crime is one of "hate" just because the victim fits a certain stereotype.

Star_Cards
05-19-2011, 12:42 PM
I believe so that there should be. If you commit any type of hate crime and kill someone weather it be for religion, racial hatred, hatred of gays or anyting similar you should be subject to death. The reason why if you feel so strongly in what you believe in that you feel the need to take someone's life you should have no problem dying for what you believe in.

I can see your point. If they deem a crime a hate crime wouldn't a crime in the name of a religion against someone of a different religion be considered a hate crime. That said, I'm not 100% set on my thoughts about a need for defining crimes as hate crimes or not. I can see the similarities though.

sanfran22
05-19-2011, 02:54 PM
Hate crime punishment is absolutely garbage. A crime is a crime, now they are prosecuting what they believed your thoughts were? Absolute garbage.

AUTaxMan
05-19-2011, 02:58 PM
Hate crime punishment is absolutely garbage. A crime is a crime, now they are prosecuting what they believed your thoughts were? Absolute garbage.

I agree. I'd prefer to leave the Thought Police in 1984.

Star_Cards
05-19-2011, 03:04 PM
Hate crime punishment is absolutely garbage. A crime is a crime, now they are prosecuting what they believed your thoughts were? Absolute garbage.

yeah, I've never really thought that there needed to be the definition of a hate crime or not. If two different people are victims of the same exact crime but the offenders have different motivation I don't see a reason why one should have a more serious penalty.

*censored*
05-19-2011, 03:14 PM
ANY violent crime is a hate crime. If you commit murder, chances are you have some major feelings of hate at that moment.

Just enforce the laws we have equally and evenly rather than re-writing to give some special privileges.

habsheaven
05-19-2011, 03:37 PM
ANY violent crime is a hate crime. If you commit murder, chances are you have some major feelings of hate at that moment.

Just enforce the laws we have equally and evenly rather than re-writing to give some special privileges.

I'm confused. Who exactly are getting the special privileges?

Star_Cards
05-19-2011, 03:40 PM
ANY violent crime is a hate crime. If you commit murder, chances are you have some major feelings of hate at that moment.

Just enforce the laws we have equally and evenly rather than re-writing to give some special privileges.

I wouldn't use the term "special privileges" but agree with your basic point.

habsheaven
05-19-2011, 03:47 PM
Isn't the only difference between "hate" crimes and regular crimes the ability to apply stiffer sentences? Perhaps the powers that be feel a stronger deterrent is necessary to prevent these types of crimes.

*censored*
05-19-2011, 04:01 PM
Maybe not special privileges, wrong word choice there, but harsher punishments.

As for feeling that stronger deterrent is necessary, why do we need to deter a racially or sexually motivated crime more than just deterring crime in general regardless of motive?

mrveggieman
05-19-2011, 04:20 PM
I am totally for stiffer penalities for hate crimes. Some crimes are commited out of need. Such as a robbery for money. I'm not saying that is a good thing to be robbed for your cash but how would you feel if you or a loved one were walking down the street minding your business and somebody assulted or killed your loved one just because they were "different." Not saying that you wouldn't feel bad if they were robbed and killed at random but if someone is desperate for money to feed themselves or their family they will do anything and there is not much that will stop them. Now correct me if I'm but no one gets desperate to kill someone because they are different. They only do it out of hate and they should get a fitting punishment.

gatorboymike
05-19-2011, 06:11 PM
On the other hand, would you be any less saddened and distressed to find out that a friend or loved one was killed because the assailant wanted to steal their wallet, than you would be if they were killed because the assailant was bigoted against them?

mrveggieman
05-20-2011, 07:22 AM
On the other hand, would you be any less saddened and distressed to find out that a friend or loved one was killed because the assailant wanted to steal their wallet, than you would be if they were killed because the assailant was bigoted against them?

I would equally sad if a loved one of mines died for any reason. My point is when survival instinct kicks in people will do anything including robbery and killing for money. If that happened to someone I love I would be upset and want whoever did that to them to be be punished. That being said racism, homophobia, anti semitism, etc are not a survial instinct and if someone believes in their cause that strongly they should be put to death if they murder someone. If you believe in killing someone for your cause you should have no problem dying for your cause.

mrveggieman
05-23-2011, 07:13 AM
Hey fam here's our bible sub topic for today. Let's say that you are at a ball game or autograph signing and you are getting your favorite ball players auto. He/she signs your ball/card/etc and he includes a verse from a holy book that you don't believe in. For example you are a christian and a mulsim athlete includes a scripture from the koran or you are an atheist and the ball player includes a bible verse on the auto. Would you be ok with that? If not what would you do with the auto? Would you say anything to the ball player? All are welcome to reply.

duane1969
05-23-2011, 10:04 AM
If that is how he signs then that is how he signs. To expect him to change who he is or what he does because it doesn't agree with my opinion or beliefs would be both self-centered and ignorant.

If you don't like that someone signs their name with a verse or religious term then you should probably think about not having that person sign something rather than demand that they sign it differently just to please you.

Wudeverbro
05-23-2011, 11:00 AM
I agree 100% with the above post. If you can get any athlete to sign something of yours, consider it a privilege. They're taking some of their time to do something for you so just be thankful for that. The only exception I would make to this is when athletes sign to spite you, i.e. Kevin garnett signing for people only to smear his auto after signing it.

*censored*
05-23-2011, 11:23 AM
I don't care in the slightest. If you ask a player not add a verse to it, you might as well ask to please make sure they sign every letter of their name clearly, add their jersey number, and list the year they won the MVP award.

Funny story involving that, apparently former Mets catcher Ed Hearn was at an autograph signing with a few other players including infielder Tim Teufel. So a guy comes up to Hearn and says "Where's Tim Teufel? He's trying to pick up my wife!"

So Hearn is confused and asks the guy what he's talking about, and so he shows Hearn the ball Teufel signed earlier. "Look, he signed this for her and put his room number on it!"

It was signed Rom. 116, as in Romans 1:16.

habsheaven
05-23-2011, 12:29 PM
I would prefer they didn't add anything of that nature to the card but if we can presume that I like that player than I would still appreciate the auto'd card and keep it for my PC.

gatorboymike
05-23-2011, 11:00 PM
Couldn't care less. Heck, look how one of the guys I collect signs his cards:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/gatorboymike/Cards/Johnson/1997/022.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/gatorboymike/Cards/Johnson/2006/002.jpg

He used to sign with "John 14:6" and now he signs with "Psalms 5:12." If anything, it's cool that he not only puts his full name on there, but something else too. So many rookies these days just put their initials. Talk about half-hearted.

AUTaxMan
05-24-2011, 08:51 AM
Frank Sanders has my favorite sig:

http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y140/AUTaxMan/Personal%20Collection/Auburn%20Players/More%20Auburn%20Players/Frank%20Sanders/1999/1999SkyBoxPremiumAutographics.jpg

mrveggieman
05-24-2011, 09:31 AM
Some ball players like to include bible verses when you request a ttm. David Robinson is one who comes to mind. I'm actually cool with them adding a bible message or anything like that reflecting their personal beliefs. I would much rather they do that than to personalize the card.

mrveggieman
05-24-2011, 09:34 AM
Let me also post this question to the board. Would it be appropriate to ask whomever is signing your card to add their favorite scripture if you knew that he/she shared the same religion as you?

theonedru
05-24-2011, 03:06 PM
I have one for you all, what about using science to prove the concept that an afterlife is possible, thought not in any religious sense...

its a pretty accepted theory that energy can be neither created nor destroyed; Thus when you break down the body to its most basic element you have energy. So the theory would abound that depends on ones fortitude would one not be able to hold ones self together after death to appear as a spirit? And depending on ones psychic type strength would affect how one "returns" whether it be a full/partial body and the length of the ability to appear. When you combine this with the concept of a soul and that when one dies an amount of weight is lost, maybe coinciding with ones "soul" leaving the body. Just a basic beginning but a good starting point for a thesis...

mrveggieman
05-24-2011, 03:31 PM
I have one for you all, what about using science to prove the concept that an afterlife is possible, thought not in any religious sense...

its a pretty accepted theory that energy can be neither created nor destroyed; Thus when you break down the body to its most basic element you have energy. So the theory would abound that depends on ones fortitude would one not be able to hold ones self together after death to appear as a spirit? And depending on ones psychic type strength would affect how one "returns" whether it be a full/partial body and the length of the ability to appear. When you combine this with the concept of a soul and that when one dies an amount of weight is lost, maybe coinciding with ones "soul" leaving the body. Just a basic beginning but a good starting point for a thesis...

I would love to hear more about such a theory. I have a very open mind when it comes to both science and religion.

Hilfiger1975
05-24-2011, 03:39 PM
I've learned in my short 35 years on this earth to not argue about/with three things. Religion, Politics, and your Wife...:winking0071:

*censored*
05-24-2011, 09:54 PM
Sid Bream adds a Bible verse when he signs, I know. Plenty of others do too, but I can't think of any off the top of my head that I've gotten.

If I get famous and start signing autographs, I'm going to find like the most random verse ever to quote. Maybe the regulations on not eating shellfish or something.

mrveggieman
05-25-2011, 07:25 AM
Sid Bream adds a Bible verse when he signs, I know. Plenty of others do too, but I can't think of any off the top of my head that I've gotten.

If I get famous and start signing autographs, I'm going to find like the most random verse ever to quote. Maybe the regulations on not eating shellfish or something.

If I signed autographs I would include Genesis 1:29-31 on my sig.

gatorboymike
05-25-2011, 02:21 PM
Malachi 2:3 for me.

habsheaven
05-25-2011, 02:41 PM
If I signed autographs I would include Genesis 1:29-31 on my sig.

Why would your favourite passage be one that is not applicable to today's world?

mrveggieman
05-25-2011, 03:31 PM
Why would your favourite passage be one that is not applicable to today's world?

29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.


It's very applicable. It's God's plan for optimal health and nutrition. It's just too bad that is one of the Bible verses that most people chose to disregard and ignore.

habsheaven
05-25-2011, 06:47 PM
So how do you interpret #30 as it applies to carnivores?

mrveggieman
05-26-2011, 07:27 AM
So how do you interpret #30 as it applies to carnivores?


I wont go into it in a biblical interpertation of it since you are skeptical of the bible. But scientifically speaking vegetarians have lower LDL levels (bad cholestorol), have lower body weights, lower instances of heart attacks, stroke, I could go on and on. So the point I would like to make is Gen 1:29-30 and the medical community are on one accord as far as the health benefits of a vegetarian diet.

habsheaven
05-26-2011, 08:05 AM
So you won't offer an explanation because you know I am skeptical? That response sort of justifies my skepticism. The point I was getting at is this. My interpretation of #30 is that God intended ALL creatures to consume plants ONLY. How does that explain the carnivores that exist in the world? I am not talking about OMNIVORES, just carnivores.

BTW, when is the new updated "testament" due out? Or are Christians just going to modify their "interpretation" of the last one for all of eternity. I mean shouldn't He be putting out an updated version soon? We have been using the "new" one for far too long haven't we.

mrveggieman
05-26-2011, 08:20 AM
So you won't offer an explanation because you know I am skeptical? That response sort of justifies my skepticism. The point I was getting at is this. My interpretation of #30 is that God intended ALL creatures to consume plants ONLY. How does that explain the carnivores that exist in the world? I am not talking about OMNIVORES, just carnivores.

BTW, when is the new updated "testament" due out? Or are Christians just going to modify their "interpretation" of the last one for all of eternity. I mean shouldn't He be putting out an updated version soon? We have been using the "new" one for far too long haven't we.

I can offer you a biblical explanation but I though that since you were a skeptic you would appreciate a more of a scientific answer.That being said my personal spin is that God intended a vegetarian diet for mankind. Science backs that up. I know that some people will run to look for verses to contradict gen 1:29-30 because they can't fathom the thought to give up their precious meat and so they can continue to justify animal cruelty but I'm not. One of the ten commandments says thou shall not kill. It dosen't say thall shall not kill except to satisfy your own taste buds nor does it say that it is ok to kill for sport. I personally think that everyone should give up meat regardless of their religious preference. I'm sure that most will disagree with that but I'm going to speak from the heart. As far as an updated testament some people may consider the koran as an updated testament but that has also been out for over 1000 years. As far as any further updates from God we will have to just wait and see.

habsheaven
05-26-2011, 08:52 AM
Okay, so you interpret #30 to read that animals are permitted to kill other animals? It doesn't read that way to me but to each his own I guess.

As for the "thou shall not kill" commandment, apparently there are exceptions like war, capital punishment, inquisitions, etc.

mrveggieman
05-26-2011, 09:08 AM
Okay, so you interpret #30 to read that animals are permitted to kill other animals? It doesn't read that way to me but to each his own I guess.

As for the "thou shall not kill" commandment, apparently there are exceptions like war, capital punishment, inquisitions, etc.

Animals can't read and cannot learn how to so I would think that they would be exempt from biblical law. As far as thou sall not kill I think that the inquisitions, crusades and unessarry wars like Iraq, Vietnam are all against God's wishes. I do think that there are some instances were capital punishment are justified and that God would not have a problem with such as when dealing with monsters like bin Laden, Timothy McVeigh, people who rape and murder children or people who commit hate crimes. I also believe that God would not have a problem with someone killing in self defense.

habsheaven
05-26-2011, 09:30 AM
Animals can't read and cannot learn how to so I would think that they would be exempt from biblical law. As far as thou sall not kill I think that the inquisitions, crusades and unessarry wars like Iraq, Vietnam are all against God's wishes. I do think that there are some instances were capital punishment are justified and that God would not have a problem with such as when dealing with monsters like bin Laden, Timothy McVeigh, people who rape and murder children or people who commit hate crimes. I also believe that God would not have a problem with someone killing in self defense.

What is your take on the Inuit people of the North? Surely God has no problem with them killing to survive. There is no way they can exist on vegetation alone. I mean if God can be "okay" with capital punishment in certain instances, he must also be "okay" with mankind eating animals to survive, right?

mrveggieman
05-26-2011, 09:35 AM
What is your take on the Inuit people of the North? Surely God has no problem with them killing to survive. There is no way they can exist on vegetation alone. I mean if God can be "okay" with capital punishment in certain instances, he must also be "okay" with mankind eating animals to survive, right?


I'm not familar with the story of the Inuit people of the North so could you please explain. Also there are plenty of vegetarians/vegans who are perfectly fine and health so yes it is possible to survive w/o meat. God would be ok with capital punishment is certian instances because of what the crimininal did. I have never heard of a chicken, cow, or pig mudering someone, raping a child or committing a hate crime.

*censored*
05-26-2011, 10:40 AM
Inuits are the ones in the far north-- Alaska, northern Canada, etc. Good luck growing any plants up there to gnaw on.

mrveggieman
05-26-2011, 10:43 AM
Inuits are the ones in the far north-- Alaska, northern Canada, etc. Good luck growing any plants up there to gnaw on.

If all those people do up there is eat meat, how do they feed the animals that they are eating?

habsheaven
05-26-2011, 11:25 AM
If all those people do up there is eat meat, how do they feed the animals that they are eating?

Did you really just ask that question? I am talking about seals, walrus, whales, etc, etc. not domesticated animals that require feeding. lol

ensbergcollector
05-26-2011, 11:26 AM
I can offer you a biblical explanation but I though that since you were a skeptic you would appreciate a more of a scientific answer.That being said my personal spin is that God intended a vegetarian diet for mankind. Science backs that up. I know that some people will run to look for verses to contradict gen 1:29-30 because they can't fathom the thought to give up their precious meat and so they can continue to justify animal cruelty but I'm not. One of the ten commandments says thou shall not kill. It dosen't say thall shall not kill except to satisfy your own taste buds nor does it say that it is ok to kill for sport. I personally think that everyone should give up meat regardless of their religious preference. I'm sure that most will disagree with that but I'm going to speak from the heart. As far as an updated testament some people may consider the koran as an updated testament but that has also been out for over 1000 years. As far as any further updates from God we will have to just wait and see.

not looking for things to contradict because i like meat, but how do you deal with God telling Peter all things are now available for food? Even if I allow the argument that in the old testament we should have only eaten plants, you can't make that argument anymore, especially from a biblical stance.

mrveggieman
05-26-2011, 11:48 AM
Did you really just ask that question? I am talking about seals, walrus, whales, etc, etc. not domesticated animals that require feeding. lol


Yes I did. Even if they ate only seafood if you go down the food chain you will find one of the fish lived exclusively on vegetation.

mrveggieman
05-26-2011, 11:55 AM
not looking for things to contradict because i like meat, but how do you deal with God telling Peter all things are now available for food? Even if I allow the argument that in the old testament we should have only eaten plants, you can't make that argument anymore, especially from a biblical stance.


Yes the bible does say something to that effect. However scientific research has proven that the healthiest diet for mankind would be a vegetarian diet. Also since christians believe that your body is your temple wouldn't it makes the most sense to take the best care of your temple by eating the best foods for your health? Your body is just like your car. You get out of it only what you put into it.

habsheaven
05-26-2011, 12:01 PM
Yes I did. Even if they ate only seafood if you go down the food chain you will find one of the fish lived exclusively on vegetation.

You asked how the people feed the animals they eat. You didn't ask where these animals get their sustenance from. And really what does any of it have to do with the question I asked you? Is God okay with these particular "mankind" killing animals and consuming them to survive?

habsheaven
05-26-2011, 12:03 PM
Yes the bible does say something to that effect. However scientific research has proven that the healthiest diet for mankind would be a vegetarian diet. Also since christians believe that your body is your temple wouldn't it makes the most sense to take the best care of your temple by eating the best foods for your health? Your body is just like your car. You get out of it only what you put into it.

I don't think so. When my car gets to a certain point I buy a new one.:rolleyes:

mrveggieman
05-26-2011, 12:06 PM
You asked how the people feed the animals they eat. You didn't ask where these animals get there sustenance from. And really what does any of it have to do with the question I asked you? Is God okay with these particular "mankind" killing animals and consuming them to survive?


I personally think that God would prefer us be vegetarian since there are an abundance of non meat items out there. There are exceptions however. I know in the koran (I'm not sure of the exact verse though) where it says that it would be ok for a muslim to eat pork only if there was no other food around. That same logic could be applied to the bible.

habsheaven
05-26-2011, 12:34 PM
I personally think that God would prefer us be vegetarian since there are an abundance of non meat items out there. There are exceptions however. I know in the koran (I'm not sure of the exact verse though) where it says that it would be ok for a muslim to eat pork only if there was no other food around. That same logic could be applied to the bible.

If God preferred us to be vegetarian why the heck didn't he just make eating all meat poisonous? Another question, how much of an abundance of non-meat items would exist today if we all had to share them with the animals that we would no longer be killing? No, if God has a plan, He is a terrible planner.

mrveggieman
05-26-2011, 12:39 PM
If God preferred us to be vegetarian why the heck didn't he just make eating all meat poisonous? Another question, how much of an abundance of non-meat items would exist today if we all had to share them with the animals that we would no longer be killing? No, if God has a plan, He is a terrible planner.


It takes 7 pounds of grains to make 1 pound of meat. If we all stopped eating meat and factory farming there would be more than enough recources to go around.

mrveggieman
05-26-2011, 12:40 PM
I don't think so. When my car gets to a certain point I buy a new one.:rolleyes:


Yes you can but don't you want the best out of your car as long as you have it?

habsheaven
05-26-2011, 01:13 PM
It takes 7 pounds of grains to make 1 pound of meat. If we all stopped eating meat and factory farming there would be more than enough recources to go around.

I'm not so sure of that. Switching to an entirely vegetarian diet would require a much larger network of farmlands than we have now. I don't know where all these uneaten animals would live if we claimed even more land then we do already.

mrveggieman
05-26-2011, 01:22 PM
Trust me it can be done. And don't worry we won't have a bunch of uneaten animals running around because most of the animals that are raised for food are mass produced at factory farms.

habsheaven
05-26-2011, 04:20 PM
Do you have any idea at the number of species in danger of going extinct now because of disappearing habitat? And you want to stop killing animals for food and take more habitat away to grow grains and vegetables. Sorry, I cannot trust your judgement on that one.

mrveggieman
05-26-2011, 04:23 PM
Different species of animals have become extinct since the beginning time. It's a part of should I dare to say "evolution." Again the world will not be over run with farm animals if we stop eating them. Just use the space that was used for factory farming to grow grains to feed all the people as well as whatever animals are left.

gatorboymike
05-26-2011, 04:40 PM
Most livestock of today have been heavily modified by artificial selection, and thus are dependent upon humans for their continued existence. And if you compare populations, there's a heck of a lot more cows, chickens and pigs out there than there are lions, tigers and bears. Oh my. To say that the species humans eat would be more prosperous if we didn't eat them is utterly absurd.

*censored*
05-26-2011, 05:56 PM
If all those people do up there is eat meat, how do they feed the animals that they are eating?

The animals they eat feed off other animals. Eventually on down to fish, and maybe eventually down to plants in the water. Hey, if you want to live up there and jump in the frigid waters for seaweed to eat, by all means, go for it. Ain't much growing in the permafrost. You wouldn't last too long.

duane1969
05-26-2011, 07:39 PM
most livestock of today have been heavily modified by artificial selection, and thus are dependent upon humans for their continued existence. And if you compare populations, there's a heck of a lot more cows, chickens and pigs out there than there are lions, tigers and bears. Oh my. To say that the species humans eat would be more prosperous if we didn't eat them is utterly absurd.

+1

This subject is going a bit off-topic but I do want to add this. If we all became vegitarians then the same result would occur except we would be talking about all of the plants that are going extinct because we are using their natural habitat to grow food. Deforestation would be happening on a massive and global scale to clear land for farming. The simple fact is this, as long as humans exist on the planet then the planet will suffer some repercusions. There is no way possible for 6.8 trillion people to live on this little planet and have zero impact.

Also, can you imagine what would happen if every human on Earth suddenly became a vegitarian? There simply is not enough fruit and vegetables grown in the world to support the world population. Within weeks tens of millions of people would be starving to death, not to mention that all of the animals that we are avoiding eating would become our prime competitors for the very food that we eat. We would soon be killing the animals that we refuse to eat just to keep them out of our fruits and vegetables so that we could eat...kind of counter-intuitive isn't it?

Theodor Madison
05-26-2011, 07:57 PM
Faith is the substance of things not seen.
It happens, that scientist make up things if they tend not to understand them.
For instance now they call the space between the stars black matter.
They and many will never believe in anything that they can't explain. Those who care not to believe, just find a way to explain their answer, and will likely never believe.

shortking98
05-26-2011, 08:39 PM
What is your take on this passage mrveggieman? For the record my stance on the issue is that its fine with me if people want to abstain from meat and I certainly don't want to discourage them if that is what they think is best for their health but at the same time I do not believe there is scriptural evidence to compel me to do so and don't think scripture implies that we should not eat meat.

1 Timothy 4
1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

mrveggieman
05-27-2011, 07:21 AM
@Shortking98 I agree with the scripture that there are a lot of hyprocritical liars and false prophets, I know cause I've seen some of them on this website :sign0020: but as far as the foods it dosen't specify exactly what he is talking about. My spin is that there are a bunch of things for us to worry about and that it would make no sense to eat a healthy diet if the you are acting like the devil in the rest of your life. Also be thankful for anything food or else that God has blessed you with. That's my spin on it I'm not claiming to be a biblical or religious expert.

duane1969
05-27-2011, 10:39 AM
Just playing devil's advocate here and posing this question.

What do those of you who consider yourselves to be "devout" Christians think about conflicts in which the Bible has similar stories or "parables" that existed before the Bible or aspects of the religion that appear to have been blatantly taken from other religions?

I am not trying to debunk anyone's religion. I was raised a Baptist and married a Pentecostal preacher's daughter. Religion has been a part of my entire life. However, I have become agnostic because I can not get past obvious holes and fallacies.

Allow me to expand. There is a god who was born a ™™™™™™ birth, his coming birth was revealed to his mother by an angel, his birth was witnessed by 3 beings, a star shone in the sky over the location of his birth, his birth was witnessed by shepards, as an infant there was an attempt to kill him, virtually no info exists about him from age 12 to age 30, he was baptised at age 30 by a man who was later beneaded...

Am I speaking of Jesus Christ or of the Egyptian god Horus?? The answer is both. How do you negotiate things like this in your beliefs?

duane1969
05-27-2011, 10:44 AM
While I am on a roll...

Why does the Bible not mention dinosaurs? The Bible supposedly documents all aspects of the works and miracles of God and Jesus. Why is the creation of dinosaurs not included? The Bible documents turning water into wine and a talking burning bush but not even the slightest mention of 20 ton predatory lizards that roamed the Earth for thousands of years?

I posed this question to a minister who countered that it was excluded because it was not important to Christianity. My obvious response was "Why would God go to all of the trouble to make them and then not consider them important enough to mention?" He had no answer.

mrveggieman
05-27-2011, 10:51 AM
While I am on a roll...

Why does the Bible not mention dinosaurs? The Bible supposedly documents all aspects of the works and miracles of God and Jesus. Why is the creation of dinosaurs not included? The Bible documents turning water into wine and a talking burning bush but not even the slightest mention of 20 ton predatory lizards that roamed the Earth for thousands of years?

I posed this question to a minister who countered that it was excluded because it was not important to Christianity. My obvious response was "Why would God go to all of the trouble to make them and then not consider them important enough to mention?" He had no answer.


Those are all great questions. I am actually waiting for a decent answer myself.

ensbergcollector
05-27-2011, 11:33 AM
Not sure this will suffice, but it is what i have as an answer goes. The bible actually does make multiple references to leviathan which was referred to as a monster of the sea. Also a "behemoth whose tail sways like a cedar.

not claiming 100% these are references to dinosaurs but i have always seen them as such. Also, anytime someone answers that it wasn't important to god or christianity run away. If someone isn't man enough to just say "I don't know" then i would have trouble listening to them.

mrveggieman
05-27-2011, 11:49 AM
Not sure this will suffice, but it is what i have as an answer goes. The bible actually does make multiple references to leviathan which was referred to as a monster of the sea. Also a "behemoth whose tail sways like a cedar.

not claiming 100% these are references to dinosaurs but i have always seen them as such. Also, anytime someone answers that it wasn't important to god or christianity run away. If someone isn't man enough to just say "I don't know" then i would have trouble listening to them.


You know I like you cause you are one of the few people on here that keep things real and actually makes sense. That being said here is the wikipedia link on leviathan. I have honestly never heard of them before and don't know that much about them but it makes for some interesting reading. Enjoy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviathan

Star_Cards
05-27-2011, 12:14 PM
While I am on a roll...

Why does the Bible not mention dinosaurs? The Bible supposedly documents all aspects of the works and miracles of God and Jesus. Why is the creation of dinosaurs not included? The Bible documents turning water into wine and a talking burning bush but not even the slightest mention of 20 ton predatory lizards that roamed the Earth for thousands of years?

I posed this question to a minister who countered that it was excluded because it was not important to Christianity. My obvious response was "Why would God go to all of the trouble to make them and then not consider them important enough to mention?" He had no answer.

I believe that Dinosaurs aren't mentioned in the bible because at the time man wrote the bible, they hadn't yet uncovered evidence that dinosaurs existed.

Wudeverbro
05-27-2011, 12:14 PM
Just playing devil's advocate here and posing this question.

What do those of you who consider yourselves to be "devout" Christians think about conflicts in which the Bible has similar stories or "parables" that existed before the Bible or aspects of the religion that appear to have been blatantly taken from other religions?

I am not trying to debunk anyone's religion. I was raised a Baptist and married a Pentecostal preacher's daughter. Religion has been a part of my entire life. However, I have become agnostic because I can not get past obvious holes and fallacies.

Allow me to expand. There is a god who was born a ™™™™™™ birth, his coming birth was revealed to his mother by an angel, his birth was witnessed by 3 beings, a star shone in the sky over the location of his birth, his birth was witnessed by shepards, as an infant there was an attempt to kill him, virtually no info exists about him from age 12 to age 30, he was baptised at age 30 by a man who was later beneaded...

Am I speaking of Jesus Christ or of the Egyptian god Horus?? The answer is both. How do you negotiate things like this in your beliefs?

Not really sure how to answer this since I don't know who Horus is. I wasn't aware that there were similar stories between Jesus' birth and an Egyptian God. Not to sound so cookie cutter Christian but a lot of what we believe is just what we believe. That may be really difficult for people to understand but I feel like not understanding everything is ok to believe in something. All of these things happened so long ago there's no way to be really sure so you just gotta go on faith.

I'm sure I didn't really answer your question as truth provoking as possible but that's what I thought of off hand and so that it didn't seem like your questions was being ignored. :hug:

mrveggieman
05-27-2011, 12:26 PM
Not really sure how to answer this since I don't know who Horus is. I wasn't aware that there were similar stories between Jesus' birth and an Egyptian God. Not to sound so cookie cutter Christian but a lot of what we believe is just what we believe. That may be really difficult for people to understand but I feel like not understanding everything is ok to believe in something. All of these things happened so long ago there's no way to be really sure so you just gotta go on faith.

I'm sure I didn't really answer your question as truth provoking as possible but that's what I thought of off hand and so that it didn't seem like your questions was being ignored. :hug:


Im not an expert but I am somewhat familiar with the story of Horus. His was reported to have lived long before Jesus and both of their lives are very similiar. Here is the link to Horus's wikipedia page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus)

mrveggieman
05-27-2011, 12:29 PM
Also check out this article comparing Jesus to mesiahs in other religions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ_in_comparative_mythology

*censored*
05-27-2011, 12:42 PM
There are a lot of parallels between Jesus and other religious figures.

Check out http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/

I just recently joined a Unitarian Universalist Fellowship and semi-related discussion group near me, and the discussion group just got done reading and talking about a book called "Saving Jesus From the Church: How to Stop Worshiping Christ and Start Following Jesus." As a Discordian Buddhist atheist who was formerly a member of a Lutheran church, I've had kind of an odd religious path, so I like reading about anything that can bring about change in religion and help to make it more reasonable to people in our times. I just started reading it, but it's good so far.

It's written by a minister in the United Church of Christ (not to be confused with just church of Christ), a fairly progressive sect of Christianity (my mom always joked that UCC stands for "Unitarians Considering Christ") who realized one day that with all the evil people parading as "good Christians," was this something he truly was, or truly wanted to be?

The book makes the case to view Jesus as a teacher, not a savior; to follow the religion that follows him as a tool of compassion, not of condemnation; that prosperity is dangerous rather than divine; that discipleship is obedience, not being controlled; and that religion should be relationship, not righteousness. We discussed a lot about how Christianity as it is today is so far removed from the book itself, and is only connected via a few specific sections and a few specific sound bytes that the true messages are lost among radical, and often wrong, interpretations.

I'd recommend anyone interested in the topic to check it out.

ensbergcollector
05-27-2011, 12:43 PM
You know I like you cause you are one of the few people on here that keep things real and actually makes sense. That being said here is the wikipedia link on leviathan. I have honestly never heard of them before and don't know that much about them but it makes for some interesting reading. Enjoy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviathan

i appreciate that a lot. i know that not everyone believes the same things as me and i also know that many have good reasons for that.
I have always used job 40-41 when looking at the dinosaur discussion

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=job%2040:15%20-%2041:34&version=NIV

thanks for the leviathan link. always curious as to what people saw when they described things a certain way

ensbergcollector
05-27-2011, 12:46 PM
There are a lot of parallels between Jesus and other religious figures.

Check out http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/

I just recently joined a Unitarian Universalist Fellowship and semi-related discussion group near me, and the discussion group just got done reading and talking about a book called "Saving Jesus From the Church: How to Stop Worshiping Christ and Start Following Jesus." As a Discordian Buddhist atheist who was formerly a member of a Lutheran church, I've had kind of an odd religious path, so I like reading about anything that can bring about change in religion and help to make it more reasonable to people in our times. I just started reading it, but it's good so far.

It's written by a minister in the United Church of Christ (not to be confused with just church of Christ), a fairly progressive sect of Christianity (my mom always joked that UCC stands for "Unitarians Considering Christ") who realized one day that with all the evil people parading as "good Christians," was this something he truly was, or truly wanted to be?

The book makes the case to view Jesus as a teacher, not a savior; to follow the religion that follows him as a tool of compassion, not of condemnation; that prosperity is dangerous rather than divine; that discipleship is obedience, not being controlled; and that religion should be relationship, not righteousness. We discussed a lot about how Christianity as it is today is so far removed from the book itself, and is only connected via a few specific sections and a few specific sound bytes that the true messages are lost among radical, and often wrong, interpretations.

I'd recommend anyone interested in the topic to check it out.

thanks for the book link. i am always interested in reading up on other people's ideas. i actually really like the sound of it except for the jesus as teacher and not savior part. I've always said if he was just a teacher and not a savior then he was a liar and thus not a good teacher.

mrveggieman
05-27-2011, 01:59 PM
You know after reading up on the other mesiahs I believe that the stories could all possibly be true. They are all obviously talking about the same guy. Now what his real name, who's his mother or the time that he actually lived in is up for depate. What do ya'll think?

duane1969
05-28-2011, 11:14 PM
Not sure this will suffice, but it is what i have as an answer goes. The bible actually does make multiple references to leviathan which was referred to as a monster of the sea. Also a "behemoth whose tail sways like a cedar.

not claiming 100% these are references to dinosaurs but i have always seen them as such. Also, anytime someone answers that it wasn't important to god or christianity run away. If someone isn't man enough to just say "I don't know" then i would have trouble listening to them.

I have heard of leviathan and am aware of the biblical reference. I take it with a grain of salt much like the idea that Jonah was swallowed by a "fish" when it is obvious that either Jonah was a very, very little man or the fish was actually a whale.

I envision leviathan as nothing more than a gray whale which are notorious for swaying their tales in the air.

With that said, as you already eluded to, the term "leviathan" falls short of encompassing the entire scope of dinosaurs, especially considering many, many, many dinosaurs were not even remotely water-dwellers.


I believe that Dinosaurs aren't mentioned in the bible because at the time man wrote the bible, they hadn't yet uncovered evidence that dinosaurs existed.

Which lends to the argument that the Bible was not written with divine guidance because it is presumable that God would be aware of dinosaurs even though the man writing the words would not.

IMHO the Bible should be chock-full of things that people of the time would not have been aware of or could not possibly known about.


Not really sure how to answer this since I don't know who Horus is. I wasn't aware that there were similar stories between Jesus' birth and an Egyptian God. Not to sound so cookie cutter Christian but a lot of what we believe is just what we believe. That may be really difficult for people to understand but I feel like not understanding everything is ok to believe in something. All of these things happened so long ago there's no way to be really sure so you just gotta go on faith.

I'm sure I didn't really answer your question as truth provoking as possible but that's what I thought of off hand and so that it didn't seem like your questions was being ignored. :hug:

Horus was an Egyptian god that pre-dates Jesus by about 6000 years.

It is not difficult to understand the "we believe it because we believe it" thing because I was brought up with that philosophy front-and-center in my life. I just didn't buy into it. I don't believe something "just because." I understand where that philosophy comes from and am fine with those who see it that way...I just can't accept it as being fact without some vestige of proof.


There are a lot of parallels between Jesus and other religious figures.

Check out http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/

I just recently joined a Unitarian Universalist Fellowship and semi-related discussion group near me, and the discussion group just got done reading and talking about a book called "Saving Jesus From the Church: How to Stop Worshiping Christ and Start Following Jesus." As a Discordian Buddhist atheist who was formerly a member of a Lutheran church, I've had kind of an odd religious path, so I like reading about anything that can bring about change in religion and help to make it more reasonable to people in our times. I just started reading it, but it's good so far.

It's written by a minister in the United Church of Christ (not to be confused with just church of Christ), a fairly progressive sect of Christianity (my mom always joked that UCC stands for "Unitarians Considering Christ") who realized one day that with all the evil people parading as "good Christians," was this something he truly was, or truly wanted to be?

The book makes the case to view Jesus as a teacher, not a savior; to follow the religion that follows him as a tool of compassion, not of condemnation; that prosperity is dangerous rather than divine; that discipleship is obedience, not being controlled; and that religion should be relationship, not righteousness. We discussed a lot about how Christianity as it is today is so far removed from the book itself, and is only connected via a few specific sections and a few specific sound bytes that the true messages are lost among radical, and often wrong, interpretations.

I'd recommend anyone interested in the topic to check it out.

Very interesting concept. I will have to read further. Thanks for the info and link.

mrveggieman
05-31-2011, 11:33 AM
Hey I got a friend that was looking for a free copy of the king james bible with the words of christ in red. I know that the mormans will deliver a free bible to you upon request on their website but the words of christ are not highlited. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks.

AUTaxMan
05-31-2011, 11:36 AM
He could probably buy one at a local book store for $10. Not sure where he could get one for free, but I'm sure he could find one somewhere on the net.

duane1969
05-31-2011, 11:48 AM
Hey I got a friend that was looking for a free copy of the king james bible with the words of christ in red. I know that the mormans will deliver a free bible to you upon request on their website but the words of christ are not highlited. Does anyone have any ideas? Thanks.

Tell him to call some local churches. Most churches have extra Bibles that were left behind or donated by congregation members when they purchased a new one.

He could also try www.freebibles.net

*censored*
05-31-2011, 12:51 PM
Might not have much luck on free ones, but any sort of Christian book store would likely have them, and likely at a reasonable price. A Red Letter Bible, I believe it's called.

mrveggieman
06-03-2011, 09:31 AM
Hey fam with the passing of Dr Kevorkian it gave me an idea for today's bible subtopic. What do you think with be the biblical answer to dr assisted suicides for terminally ill patients? Anyone with an opinion feel free to chime in. Thanks.

Star_Cards
06-03-2011, 10:09 AM
Which lends to the argument that the Bible was not written with divine guidance because it is presumable that God would be aware of dinosaurs even though the man writing the words would not.

IMHO the Bible should be chock-full of things that people of the time would not have been aware of or could not possibly known about.

exactly. Great point. Think of all of the currently unknown things that probably would crop up in the text if a God that created all of this had actually wrote the bible.

Star_Cards
06-03-2011, 10:13 AM
Hey fam with the passing of Dr Kevorkian it gave me an idea for today's bible subtopic. What do you think with be the biblical answer to dr assisted suicides for terminally ill patients? Anyone with an opinion feel free to chime in. Thanks.

I'm not sure what any religious texts say or what people think they say, but I myself see it as a form of mercy and do not agree with laws taking away one's choice to decide if they should live or die especially with quality of life being low.

ensbergcollector
06-03-2011, 11:54 AM
exactly. Great point. Think of all of the currently unknown things that probably would crop up in the text if a God that created all of this had actually wrote the bible.

the problem with that theory is that the bible wasn't written to be the history of everything that has ever happened in the world to anyone. It is the story of God and his people. Of course there are things in history which aren't included. Why would anyone assume they would be?

Star_Cards
06-03-2011, 12:29 PM
the problem with that theory is that the bible wasn't written to be the history of everything that has ever happened in the world to anyone. It is the story of God and his people. Of course there are things in history which aren't included. Why would anyone assume they would be?

yes, it's not a history of everything that happened, but one could assume a few things may creep in... or at least I do.

gatorboymike
06-03-2011, 01:44 PM
the problem with that theory is that the bible wasn't written to be the history of everything that has ever happened in the world to anyone. It is the story of God and his people. Of course there are things in history which aren't included. Why would anyone assume they would be?

Do you know how many times I've heard Christians say "I don't believe in X, because the Bible doesn't say anything about X"?

*censored*
06-03-2011, 02:17 PM
Do you know how many times I've heard Christians say "I don't believe in X, because the Bible doesn't say anything about X"?

The Church of Christ is like that. They are firm believers that they can't do what isn't in the Bible, at least when it comes to religious services. That's why musical instruments are not allowed in their church services-- the Bible doesn't say it's allowed, so it must not be.

Note" that's Church of Christ, not United Church of Christ.

mrveggieman
06-03-2011, 03:25 PM
There is an old saying something to the effect of being so heavenly bound to where you con do no earthly good. The bible and other religious scriptures can't speak of everything because it was written for people at that particular time. For example if God put scriputres today and used verbage that people 5000 years from now could only understand it would be completely useless to us today. However something written 1000-2000 years ago could not only be understood by us it could be understood by the people that it was originally intended for.

ensbergcollector
06-03-2011, 08:18 PM
The Church of Christ is like that. They are firm believers that they can't do what isn't in the Bible, at least when it comes to religious services. That's why musical instruments are not allowed in their church services-- the Bible doesn't say it's allowed, so it must not be.

Note" that's Church of Christ, not United Church of Christ.

a very small minority of church of christ are still like that. 20 years ago, most were. I am a church of christ minister so I do know a little about our history and where we are now. We did pretty much coin the phrase "speak where the bible speaks and be silent where the bible is silent" back in the 1800's so we have earned the stereotype that we have. But, most are getting away from that mentality.

ensbergcollector
06-03-2011, 08:19 PM
Do you know how many times I've heard Christians say "I don't believe in X, because the Bible doesn't say anything about X"?

probably a ton. As I have said elsewhere in this thread, that is a cheap way out of having to answer tough questions for a lot of people. It helps no one, christian or not, when people have that as their response.

ttmtrader101
06-03-2011, 08:32 PM
I am a christian and I believe in the bible. Its the only way to heaven. Theres no other way.

*censored*
06-03-2011, 11:12 PM
a very small minority of church of christ are still like that. 20 years ago, most were. I am a church of christ minister so I do know a little about our history and where we are now. We did pretty much coin the phrase "speak where the bible speaks and be silent where the bible is silent" back in the 1800's so we have earned the stereotype that we have. But, most are getting away from that mentality.

Fair enough. I know it was standard practice for quite a while, and of what I've heard it seems to be the same way still with at least a couple of them around here (North Texas).

gatorboymike
06-03-2011, 11:19 PM
probably a ton. As I have said elsewhere in this thread, that is a cheap way out of having to answer tough questions for a lot of people. It helps no one, christian or not, when people have that as their response.

That is quite true. And that's why people like me get so impatient.

ensbergcollector
06-04-2011, 01:46 AM
Fair enough. I know it was standard practice for quite a while, and of what I've heard it seems to be the same way still with at least a couple of them around here (North Texas).

i'm working in the dallas area right now. there are still a few. it was much worse other places i have worked.

theonedru
06-04-2011, 02:02 AM
The Church of Christ is like that. They are firm believers that they can't do what isn't in the Bible, at least when it comes to religious services. That's why musical instruments are not allowed in their church services-- the Bible doesn't say it's allowed, so it must not be.

Note" that's Church of Christ, not United Church of Christ.

So then slavery is ok for them as per Leviticus 25:44-46

Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

and Exodus 21:2-6

If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.

But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

Ephesians 6:5-9

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart.

Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people,

because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.

And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

So slavery is overall acceptable since the bible (thus God) supports it?

mrveggieman
06-04-2011, 12:07 PM
Yeah I have heard that before. I don't claim to be a bible expert but my spin would be the word slave would be the equal to the word employee today. I could be wrong about that though. Heck some jobs that I have worked seem like slavery (lol). I know that some religious extremists such as Fallwell and others have used the bible to justify racism and segregation but they were wrong for that.

ensbergcollector
06-04-2011, 09:23 PM
So then slavery is ok for them as per Leviticus 25:44-46

Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

and Exodus 21:2-6

If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.

But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

Ephesians 6:5-9

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.

Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart.

Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people,

because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.

And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

So slavery is overall acceptable since the bible (thus God) supports it?

absolutely no one would say that except for people like you who are attempting to poke holes. No one says if it is in the bible then it is ok. That is not what is meant by people who look only to scripture for information.

theonedru
06-04-2011, 11:47 PM
absolutely no one would say that except for people like you who are attempting to poke holes. No one says if it is in the bible then it is ok. That is not what is meant by people who look only to scripture for information.

It was more directed towards the crackpots who think that everything in the bible is okie dokie perfectly acceptable, not towards the generalized christian religion itself. personally I put little inspiration behind any religious text inspired by a god but written by man.

gatorboymike
06-05-2011, 12:49 PM
Actually, people say "if it's in the Bible, then it's OK" all the time. And they have said it all throughout history. I find it very hard to believe a minister wouldn't know that.

mrveggieman
06-05-2011, 08:38 PM
It trips me out how people like jerry fallwell and other religious fanatics misquote the koran at an attempt to discredit islam but when someone points out references to slavery and other ills in society they are quick to say that it was taken out of context. If you want someone to respect your religion please respect others. BTW I personally believe that word slave in the bible is equal to the word employee today and no I wasn't directing this post at anyone in particular but I know that someone will take offense to this.

gatorboymike
06-05-2011, 10:42 PM
It trips me out how people like jerry fallwell and other religious fanatics misquote the koran at an attempt to discredit islam but when someone points out references to slavery and other ills in society they are quick to say that it was taken out of context. If you want someone to respect your religion please respect others. BTW I personally believe that word slave in the bible is equal to the word employee today and no I wasn't directing this post at anyone in particular but I know that someone will take offense to this.

There's a reason why we have different words for the concepts of slavery and employment. Because the concepts are radically different. Slavery and employment are NOT the same thing, and as far as I know, they have never been considered the same thing. If the writers of the Bible meant employment when they said slavery, why did they say slavery? This is the same thing that happens when Christians say the Bible meant "sphere" when it says "circle" in reference to the shape of the earth. Sorry, but words have meanings. And to use a word whose meaning is in direct opposition to the concept you're trying to express is an act of either ignorance or outright dishonesty.

ensbergcollector
06-05-2011, 11:30 PM
There's a reason why we have different words for the concepts of slavery and employment. Because the concepts are radically different. Slavery and employment are NOT the same thing, and as far as I know, they have never been considered the same thing. If the writers of the Bible meant employment when they said slavery, why did they say slavery? This is the same thing that happens when Christians say the Bible meant "sphere" when it says "circle" in reference to the shape of the earth. Sorry, but words have meanings. And to use a word whose meaning is in direct opposition to the concept you're trying to express is an act of either ignorance or outright dishonesty.

rarely do i agree with GBM but i will do so here. I am able to look at the original greek for the new testament and hebrew for the old testament. There was no chance of misinterpretation. the bible was definitely referring to slavery.

AUTaxMan
06-05-2011, 11:49 PM
rarely do i agree with GBM but i will do so here. I am able to look at the original greek for the new testament and hebrew for the old testament. There was no chance of misinterpretation. the bible was definitely referring to slavery.

Some say that slavery as a concept was different in the world of the bible and that it was more akin to indentured servitude than slavery as we know it.

mrveggieman
06-06-2011, 08:47 AM
Good morning fam. Here's a link that I saw on facebook that deals with religion and obesity. I thought that it was kind of far fetched but I wanted to share it with the group.

http://www.examiner.com/atheism-in-philadelphia/new-study-links-obesity-to-religion

AUTaxMan
06-06-2011, 09:43 AM
Probably because they don't serve health food at church.

mrveggieman
06-06-2011, 10:03 AM
Probably because they don't serve health food at church.


I agree with you on that point. But don't you think that church as an entity that is in place to for the betterment of it's members as well as the public as a whole, shouldn't they be more health conscience as far as what foods they serve?

ensbergcollector
06-06-2011, 10:27 AM
Good morning fam. Here's a link that I saw on facebook that deals with religion and obesity. I thought that it was kind of far fetched but I wanted to share it with the group.

http://www.examiner.com/atheism-in-philadelphia/new-study-links-obesity-to-religion

i do find the findings interesting. However, there are plenty of religious people who diet. I can't imagine any but the most extreme churches not dieting because it is "scientific." I also don't know any christians who don't care about their health here because they are looking forward to an afterlife. I think the article attempts to poke fun at religion under the guise of a study.

mrveggieman
06-07-2011, 07:36 AM
Good morning fam. Here's today's bible subtopic. I'm sure you read the story about George Allen supporting his church after some members left because they let muslims use the church while their mosque was under repair. My question to you if that were your church would you be okay with them letting muslims or any other religion use it for worship? Why or why not? Here is the link to the George Allen story:

http://www.islamophobiatoday.com/2011/06/03/allen-sticks-with-church-that-allows-muslims-to-pray/

Star_Cards
06-07-2011, 11:10 AM
i do find the findings interesting. However, there are plenty of religious people who diet. I can't imagine any but the most extreme churches not dieting because it is "scientific." I also don't know any christians who don't care about their health here because they are looking forward to an afterlife. I think the article attempts to poke fun at religion under the guise of a study.

I tend to agree with you here. There are probably more issues that effect weight before religious beliefs. Besides... when you have so many church goers you're going to have a decent amount of over weight people. I know overweight non church goers and very physically fit church goers. I don't see the connection really.

Star_Cards
06-07-2011, 11:13 AM
Good morning fam. Here's today's bible subtopic. I'm sure you read the story about George Allen supporting his church after some members left because they let muslims use the church while their mosque was under repair. My question to you if that were your church would you be okay with them letting muslims or any other religion use it for worship? Why or why not? Here is the link to the George Allen story:

http://www.islamophobiatoday.com/2011/06/03/allen-sticks-with-church-that-allows-muslims-to-pray/

I would be okay with it. It's a form of charity being offered out to the other organization which is in need of a place to worship. It sounds like it's only the one night so it doesn't seem to be all that imposing. Plus it's only for a sort time period. I don't see a reason why anyone should be threatened by a different religion using their place of worship in a time of need. Seems like you would want to help out fellow believers in case in the future you may need the same type of assistance.

mrveggieman
06-13-2011, 11:08 AM
Ya'll know that your boy Harold Camping recently suffered a stroke leaving him unable to speak. Your thoughts on that or any other bible/religious subtopics.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2002816/Harold-Camping-Doomsday-preacher-suffers-stroke-leaves-struggling-speak.html

AUTaxMan
06-13-2011, 11:10 AM
Ya'll know that your boy Harold Camping recently suffered a stroke leaving him unable to speak. Your thoughts on that or any other bible/religious subtopics.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2002816/Harold-Camping-Doomsday-preacher-suffers-stroke-leaves-struggling-speak.html

I think that it's unfortunate.

mrveggieman
06-13-2011, 11:12 AM
I think that it's unfortunate.


You never want to hear about anyone having a stroke but it's kind of ironic, wouldn't you think?

AUTaxMan
06-13-2011, 11:15 AM
You never want to hear about anyone having a stroke but it's kind of ironic, wouldn't you think?

Sure it's ironic, but I don't read any meaning into it.

*censored*
06-13-2011, 02:40 PM
Karma defined.

habsheaven
06-13-2011, 02:49 PM
Hmmmm ...... maybe there is a God afterall and He got tired of hearing this guy's rant?

gatorboymike
06-13-2011, 03:08 PM
Maybe he somehow developed a conscience and couldn't live with himself. That would be a first among bigwig preachers.

theonedru
06-13-2011, 04:28 PM
maybe in a way he was correct, but it wasn't the whole world coming to an end, maybe jut his world.

mrveggieman
06-20-2011, 11:43 AM
I haven't heard anything from this group in a while and just wanted to raise it from the dead. Pun intended. Seriously though are there any controversial religious issues that anyone wants to discuss? Or does anyone have any questions regarding any of the holy books?

matt_curren
06-28-2011, 10:37 AM
I think part of the confusion about evolution comes from our classification systems.

The reason all of this is so confusing is that the basic system of taxonomy, which was set up prior to evolution, is static and primarily built to classify existing, modern species. But the history of life is much bigger than just the present day, and the classifications have a branching unity that simple static names cannot capture.

Think of a human being. We are not only still apes, 100% ape, but we are also "still" 100% primate. And 100% mammal. And 100% amniote. And 100% tetrapod. And 100% eukaryote! This can sound crazy to anyone who thinks of evolution as one thing changing into another, but the key is that all of these categories are not simply larger and larger categories: they are our history as well.

This is why, when creationists insist that we never see fruit flies or dogs becoming something "else" they don't know how right they are. All the descendants of fruit flies will be fruit flies. All the descendants of dogs will be dogs. Not because they won't change into new species as well, but because they will still group together under those terms against all other living things. The unique history that was the lineage of fruit flies will ALWAYS be their lineage. "Fruit fly" will still describe what they are, how they are all like each other and unlike anything else.

Hopefully this is all making sense: it's a weird concept for some people to grasp. Our taxonomic way of naming things is like only being able to see 2d in a 3d world.

Even long extinct creatures like dinosaurs are given species names. But in a way, this is like saying that dinosaurs, and everything else we name in this manner, all exists in one time period, & nothing is the descendant of anything else. In reality, there is a "species" of now extinct dinosaur that is the ancestor of all birds. That's an entire CLASS (made up of many species of many genuses or many families, of many orders) of animals all tucked away beneath and inside that single "species" of dinosaur that is the ancestor of all of them.

mrveggieman
06-28-2011, 10:46 AM
Interesting....