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AUTaxMan
07-01-2011, 05:45 PM
http://washingtonexaminer.com/politics/2011/06/union-curbs-rescue-wisconsin-school-district

sanfran22
07-01-2011, 07:09 PM
Hmmmmmm. Ohio has the same issues. You'd be amazed at all the crap I hear about sb5. The misinformation and scare tactics are insane.

dfr52
07-01-2011, 11:22 PM
Hmmmmmm. Ohio has the same issues. You'd be amazed at all the crap I hear about sb5. The misinformation and scare tactics are insane.

Ohio's teachers are already paying 15% toward health care and have been paying into their pension. The Wisconsin case is a bit extreme where the teachers were only paying 10% toward health care and nothing into their pensions.

sanfran22
07-02-2011, 06:57 PM
Ohio's teachers are already paying 15% toward health care and have been paying into their pension. The Wisconsin case is a bit extreme where the teachers were only paying 10% toward health care and nothing into their pensions.
I don't think that's a standard number. My sister doesn't pay anywhere near that amount.
Hudson just agreed to 10%.
"In addition, the teachers agreed to pay 10 percent toward their annual health-care premium.
For single coverage, teachers now pay $250 toward the annual premium. In January, they'll pay about $746. Families currently pay $500 annually. Next year, they'll pay about $1,637."
I wish i could pay 250 a year. I pay more then that in a month.
And with this little tidbit, I think they can afford to chip in rather then the taxpayes shouldering the whole load....
"The average teacher salary in Hudson is $71,313, according to 2009-10 data from the Ohio Department of Education."

duane1969
07-02-2011, 10:27 PM
Those horrible anti-union people!! What were they thinking??!!! A school district went from a $400k deficit to a $1.2 billion surplus. Oh the horror!!!!

Here in WV what teachers pay for health care depends on your status. If you are single it amounts to a pitance of maybe 5% of your income. Family policies run around 15%.

We get to choose how much to pay into our retirement and the district matches it up to 6%. If I only put in 2% then that is all that the district matches.

dfr52
07-02-2011, 10:39 PM
I don't think that's a standard number. My sister doesn't pay anywhere near that amount.
Hudson just agreed to 10%.
"In addition, the teachers agreed to pay 10 percent toward their annual health-care premium.
For single coverage, teachers now pay $250 toward the annual premium. In January, they'll pay about $746. Families currently pay $500 annually. Next year, they'll pay about $1,637."
I wish i could pay 250 a year. I pay more then that in a month.
And with this little tidbit, I think they can afford to chip in rather then the taxpayes shouldering the whole load....
"The average teacher salary in Hudson is $71,313, according to 2009-10 data from the Ohio Department of Education."

Hudson is one of the wealthy districts in the state and probably should not be used for comparision. Its a very affluent community that isn't the norm for NE Ohio.

sanfran22
07-03-2011, 10:34 AM
Hudson is one of the wealthy districts in the state and probably should not be used for comparision. Its a very affluent community that isn't the norm for NE Ohio.
I'm just saying you used a blanket number that's not the norm. Also, for Hudson being so affluent (which they are), they did a whole lot of badgering and fear tactics to pass their budget. So it is a great example of if an affluent system is badgering the people, what's going on elsewhere? We need to start by fixing the union issue and keep going from there. It just proves my old point that money isn't the answer and they will never stop asking for more.

dfr52
07-04-2011, 12:09 AM
I'm just saying you used a blanket number that's not the norm. Also, for Hudson being so affluent (which they are), they did a whole lot of badgering and fear tactics to pass their budget. So it is a great example of if an affluent system is badgering the people, what's going on elsewhere? We need to start by fixing the union issue and keep going from there. It just proves my old point that money isn't the answer and they will never stop asking for more.

Yes the rates can vary for among districts but Ohio teachers have not had it as good as those in Wisconsin. Why is it unfair for teachers to want to be paid like the professionals and to fight for it?

sanfran22
07-04-2011, 11:02 PM
Yes the rates can vary for among districts but Ohio teachers have not had it as good as those in Wisconsin. Why is it unfair for teachers to want to be paid like the professionals and to fight for it?
Because the professionals are not being paid by taxpayers primarily. There should not be allowed a union that can strong arm tax dollars into whatever they want.
They know what they are getting into when they choose the teaching degree.

redsoxx11
07-04-2011, 11:10 PM
Because the professionals are not being paid by taxpayers primarily. There should not be allowed a union that can strong arm tax dollars into whatever they want.
They know what they are getting into when they choose the teaching degree.

You mean like Oil lobbyist ?

tutall
07-04-2011, 11:18 PM
You mean like Oil lobbyist ?

does taxpayer money fund oil lobbyists?

redsoxx11
07-04-2011, 11:48 PM
does taxpayer money fund oil lobbyists?

I'm talking about where tax dollars go.

tutall
07-05-2011, 12:13 AM
I'm talking about where tax dollars go.

:confused0024: that makes no sense... are you saying the oil companies avoid taxes with loopholes? And if so can you please relate that back to anything that was discussed in this thread? You wuoted a response that was based on the teachers union strong arming the local governments into more money that the taxpayers are paying for and said like oil lobbyists..... If congress is handing money wedont have to the oil companies (which can be debated) then vote out the congressman but it has nothing to do witht he teachers union

redsoxx11
07-05-2011, 12:18 AM
:confused0024: that makes no sense... are you saying the oil companies avoid taxes with loopholes? And if so can you please relate that back to anything that was discussed in this thread? You wuoted a response that was based on the teachers union strong arming the local governments into more money that the taxpayers are paying for and said like oil lobbyists..... If congress is handing money wedont have to the oil companies (which can be debated) then vote out the congressman but it has nothing to do witht he teachers union

lets call unions & lobbyists people -

He said we shouldn't have people strong arming the gov about where tax dollars should go, but this is exactly what people do when they lobby for subsidies.

AUTaxMan
07-05-2011, 12:19 AM
Yes the rates can vary for among districts but Ohio teachers have not had it as good as those in Wisconsin. Why is it unfair for teachers to want to be paid like the professionals and to fight for it?

Because teachers aren't professionals. "Those who can do. Those who can't teach." Doesn't apply to all, but it does apply to most. I have teachers in my immediate family btw.

tutall
07-05-2011, 12:22 AM
lets call unions & lobbyists people -

He said we shouldn't have people strong arming the gov about where tax dollars should go, but this is exactly what people do when they lobby for subsidies.

huge difference... and no I am not for lobbyists but they are paidby a private firm to get things done... The teachers union is basically going against communities or cities to get more money... honestly I wish they would do away with both unions and lobbyists but with the measley 120K a congressman makes these days how could they afford the chick on the side without getting paid by someone

redsoxx11
07-05-2011, 12:26 AM
Because teachers aren't professionals. "Those who can do. Those who can't teach." Doesn't apply to all, but it does apply to most. I have teachers in my immediate family btw.

So what would a early childhood education teacher do.. besides teaching kids?
And how would someone who "can" learn to have done that he "can" do with out someone teaching him?

AUTaxMan
07-05-2011, 12:34 AM
So what would a early childhood education teacher do.. besides teaching kids?
And how would someone who "can" learn to have done that he "can" do with out someone teaching him?

Probably wait tables.

I'm not saying that we don't need teachers or that I don't appreciate them. I'm saying that you can't compare the skill set or rigorous education and licensing tests required to become an accountant, lawyer, doctor, architect, engineer, etc. to those required to become a teacher. Teachers are not professionals.

redsoxx11
07-05-2011, 12:41 AM
Probably wait tables.

I'm not saying that we don't need teachers or that I don't appreciate them. I'm saying that you can't compare the skill set or rigorous education and licensing tests required to become an accountant, lawyer, doctor, architect, engineer, etc. to those required to become a teacher. Teachers are not professionals.

Really? Everything you listed requires at least a B.S or B.A. CPA's and Teachers both are required to take licensing exams. Your full of that teachers are not professionals or require rigorous education. Only 2 require more post graduate work. And then you are not accounting for teachers who teach at the post graduate level and who are also doing research.

AUTaxMan
07-05-2011, 12:44 AM
Really? Everything you listed requires at least a B.S or B.A. CPA's and Teachers both are required to take licensing exams. Your full of that teachers are not professionals or require rigorous education.

You are not seriously comparing the CPA licensing exam or the medical boards or the bar exam with teacher's licensing exam are you?

redsoxx11
07-05-2011, 12:47 AM
You are not seriously comparing the CPA licensing exam or the medical boards or the bar exam with teacher's licensing exam are you?

No I did not compare med boards to teacher licensing, since I put those into the catagory of needing + years of post graduate work. But back to you being wrong....

AUTaxMan
07-05-2011, 12:49 AM
No I did not compare med boards to teacher licensing, since I put those into the catagory of needing + years of post graduate work. But back to you being wrong....

The CPA is probably harder than the bar exam and also requires post graduate education.

redsoxx11
07-05-2011, 12:51 AM
The CPA is probably harder than the bar exam and also requires post graduate education.

SO hard that you Devry can take care of it for you ?

In CA

Pathway 1 (Expires Dec. 31, 2013.)
Designed for individuals who will practice only in California and requires:
A bachelor’s degree;
24 semester units in accounting-related subjects;
24 semester units in business-related subjects (accounting courses beyond the 24 required units may apply toward the business units);
Passing the Uniform CPA Exam;
Two years of general accounting experience supervised by a CPA with an active license; and
Passing an ethics course.



Even NY does not require post graduate work

AUTaxMan
07-05-2011, 12:58 AM
You can also get law and medical degrees and non-accredited institutions. Doesn't prevent them from being professions.

redsoxx11
07-05-2011, 01:06 AM
You can also get law and medical degrees and non-accredited institutions. Doesn't prevent them from being professions.

You're still failing to prove that teachers aren't professionals

mrveggieman
07-05-2011, 07:44 AM
Probably wait tables.

I'm not saying that we don't need teachers or that I don't appreciate them. I'm saying that you can't compare the skill set or rigorous education and licensing tests required to become an accountant, lawyer, doctor, architect, engineer, etc. to those required to become a teacher. Teachers are not professionals.

Where would the doctors, lawyers, engineers, architects, police officers ball players, coaches, I could go on forever, be without teachers? If you take away all the teachers we would have nothing. Teachers more respect and better pay.

AUTaxMan
07-05-2011, 07:45 AM
You're still failing to prove that teachers aren't professionals

You must possess specialized knowledge acquired through years of study in order to obtain a minimal level of proficiency with respect to the professions. Although, you may acquire a post-graduate degree in education in order to teach, it isn't necessary in order to be an effective teacher (though you might need such a degree to get a teaching job these days).

The professions are held to high standards with respect to ethics and professional acumen. Teachers are not.

Frankly, just about anybody can decide to become a teacher and pass whatever curriculum and tests are required to become licensed. Not so for the professions.

The fact that we are having this conversation is laughable to me. Teaching is not generally considered one of the classical professions. You ought to be the one convincing me that it is, not the other way around.

AUTaxMan
07-05-2011, 07:48 AM
Where would the doctors, lawyers, engineers, architects, police officers ball players, coaches, I could go on forever, be without teachers? If you take away all the teachers we would have nothing. Teachers more respect and better pay.

I am not saying their jobs aren't important. I am saying that they are not professionals. I could roll out of bed and teach pretty much any high school subject.

mrveggieman
07-05-2011, 08:00 AM
I am not saying their jobs aren't important. I am saying that they are not professionals. I could roll out of bed and teach pretty much any high school subject.


That's easier said than done. Teacher involves much more than just learning a particular field and telling someone about it. You have to be a parent, coach, counselor, friend, mentor in addition to teach. People don't teach because it's an easy job, or for the money, they do it because they love what they do and want to make a difference in their communities.

AUTaxMan
07-05-2011, 08:01 AM
That's easier said than done. Teacher involves much more than just learning a particular field and telling someone about it. You have to be a parent, coach, counselor, friend, mentor in addition to teach. People don't teach because it's an easy job, or for the money, they do it because they love what they do and want to make a difference in their communities.

I understand all of that. It still doesn't make it a profession.

mrveggieman
07-05-2011, 09:04 AM
I understand all of that. It still doesn't make it a profession.


Everyone talks about thanking a soldier, let's also thank the soldier's former teachers as well as all teachers for all that they do.

redsoxx11
07-05-2011, 09:21 AM
You must possess specialized knowledge acquired through years of study in order to obtain a minimal level of proficiency with respect to the professions. Although, you may acquire a post-graduate degree in education in order to teach, it isn't necessary in order to be an effective teacher (though you might need such a degree to get a teaching job these days).

The professions are held to high standards with respect to ethics and professional acumen. Teachers are not.

Frankly, just about anybody can decide to become a teacher and pass whatever curriculum and tests are required to become licensed. Not so for the professions.

The fact that we are having this conversation is laughable to me. Teaching is not generally considered one of the classical professions. You ought to be the one convincing me that it is, not the other way around.

The fact that you think lawyers are some bastion of ethical standards tells me all I need to know about your argument and your intelligence. Obviously you have no idea the amount of schooling that goes into some of these professions, since I already debased your argument that a CPA requires a post graduate degree. You obvioulsy have a hardon for degrading the teaching profession, maybe you failed some classes, or you didn't get enough special attention when you were going through school that as caused you to become so fundementaly negative towards teachers.

sanfran22
07-05-2011, 09:28 AM
lol, I can't go back to school to get a medical license, but I can go back and get a teaching certificate at any time with basically any degree....

Star_Cards
07-05-2011, 09:39 AM
Hudson is one of the wealthy districts in the state and probably should not be used for comparision. Its a very affluent community that isn't the norm for NE Ohio.

I don't get why teaching seems to be the job where people say they are so underpaid. I understand that everyone wants more pay, but in my opinion, any job that gives you 2-3 months in the summer off along with a few weeks at christmas, spring break and various other vacation days off throughout the school year should be factored in when considering their pay. Most "professionals" don't receive their salaries along with 3-4 months off every year. That is a huge benefit that my teaching friends fail to look at when they complain that teachers get railroaded with their salaries. I have no idea what they make, but I bet it's more than me if you look at their actual work hours... even if they sometimes work "overtime" during the school year.

sanfran22
07-05-2011, 09:40 AM
I don't get why teaching seems to be the job where people say they are so underpaid. I understand that everyone wants more pay, but in my opinion, any job that gives you 2-3 months in the summer off along with a few weeks at christmas, spring break and various other vacation days off throughout the school year should be factored in when considering their pay. Most "professionals" don't receive their salaries along with 3-4 months off every year. That is a huge benefit that my teaching friends fail to look at when they complain that teachers get railroaded with their salaries. I have no idea what they make, but I bet it's more than me if you look at their actual work hours... even if they sometimes work "overtime" during the school year.
I just looked up the Ohio teaching website. The average pay is 50k+ and they get 15 weeks off min per year according to that site.

AUTaxMan
07-05-2011, 09:46 AM
The fact that you think lawyers are some bastion of ethical standards tells me all I need to know about your argument and your intelligence. Obviously you have no idea the amount of schooling that goes into some of these professions, since I already debased your argument that a CPA requires a post graduate degree. You obvioulsy have a hardon for degrading the teaching profession, maybe you failed some classes, or you didn't get enough special attention when you were going through school that as caused you to become so fundementaly negative towards teachers.

You are in over your head, sir. Lawyers are held to a code of professional responsibility and rigorous ethical standards. Failure to comply with the ethics code can get a lawyers publicly reprimanded, suspended, or disbarred. The fact that you may personally have a low opinion of lawyers leads me to believe that you have little (if any) personal experience with lawyers and have based your opinion on a little-deserved stigma attached to us by a select few scumbags (which exist in all areas of business and trade).

I never said that sitting for the CPA exam required a post-graduate degree. I said that it required post graduate education. When I was an accounting major, even taking a full load you couldn't get enough upper-level accounting hours in undergrad to meet the hourly requirement to sit for the CPA exam. Thus, you needed some level of post-graduate education in order to take the exam.

I also have direct knowledge of how much work and schooling goes into those professions, as I have been through three years of law school at a top tier school as well as obtaining a masters in tax law from a top 3 school. I also have a very close sister who just obtained her masters in early childhood ed, so I would say that I know exactly how much work is involved.

Finally, I have tremendous respect for teachers. The point I am making is that the job of teaching is not akin to that of architects, accountants, lawyers, doctors, pilots, actuaries, engineers, etc. which require particular expertise in order to achieve a minimal level of competence.

Star_Cards
07-05-2011, 09:47 AM
Because teachers aren't professionals. "Those who can do. Those who can't teach." Doesn't apply to all, but it does apply to most. I have teachers in my immediate family btw.

I wouldn't go as far as to not call them professionals. True some are good and some are bad.

I do see teaching as a job where the vacation time has to be included when you discuss pay rates.

redsoxx11
07-05-2011, 09:55 AM
You are in over your head, sir. Lawyers are held to a code of professional responsibility and rigorous ethical standards. Failure to comply with the ethics code can get a lawyers publicly reprimanded, suspended, or disbarred. The fact that you may personally have a low opinion of lawyers leads me to believe that you have little (if any) personal experience with lawyers and have based your opinion on a little-deserved stigma attached to us by a select few scumbags (which exist in all areas of business and trade).

I never said that sitting for the CPA exam required a post-graduate degree. I said that it required post graduate education. When I was an accounting major, even taking a full load you couldn't get enough upper-level accounting hours in undergrad to meet the hourly requirement to sit for the CPA exam. Thus, you needed some level of post-graduate education in order to take the exam.

I also have direct knowledge of how much work and schooling goes into those professions, as I have been through three years of law school at a top tier school as well as obtaining a masters in tax law from a top 3 school. I also have a very close sister who just obtained her masters in early childhood ed, so I would say that I know exactly how much work is involved.

Finally, I have tremendous respect for teachers. The point I am making is that the job of teaching is not akin to that of architects, accountants, lawyers, doctors, pilots, actuaries, engineers, etc. which require particular expertise in order to achieve a minimal level of competence.

No the point is you wanted to find a way to degrade the teaching profession, by saying they aren't professionals. Then you randomy selected some jobs that require post gradute work to compare it to. Your post is pretty transparent that you somehow think teachers don'r deserve a decent wage.. even though you pointed out you had a family member who earned a masters.. So what, do you think teachers should be minimum wage earnes like the gate guard at Disney world? Trying to cast the teaching profession off as some lowley throw away job that doesn't deserve a respectable wage is rediculous.

Star_Cards
07-05-2011, 09:55 AM
I just looked up the Ohio teaching website. The average pay is 50k+ and they get 15 weeks off min per year according to that site.

That's not a bad job in my book if you are into teaching. Some of my teacher friends on facebook make me laugh from time to time... Some post about teachers lack of pay of struggles with negotiations, but in the summer all their posts tend to be from the pool. I get that everyone is going to want to be paid more, but I feel most people would take the vacation package over some extra pay if they are still making 50K.

redsoxx11
07-05-2011, 09:59 AM
Wiki -
1.Expert and specialized knowledge in field which one is practicing professionally.[6]

2.Excellent manual/practical and literary skills in relation to profession.[7]

3.High quality work in (examples): creations, products, services, presentations, consultancy, primary/other research, administrative, marketing or other work endeavors.

4.A high standard of professional ethics, behavior and work activities while carrying out one's profession (as an employee, self-employed person, career, enterprise, business, company, or partnership/associate/colleague, etc.). The professional owes a higher duty to a client, often a privilege of confidentiality, as well as a duty not to abandon the client just because he or she may not be able to pay or remunerate the professional. Often the professional is required to put the interest of the client ahead of his own interests.

5.Reasonable work morale and motivation. Having interest and desire to do a job well as holding positive attitude towards the profession are important elements in attaining a high level of professionalism.

6.Participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs b : having a particular profession as a permanent career c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return[6]

7.Appropriate treatment of relationships with colleagues. Special respect should be demonstrated to special people and interns. An example must be set to perpetuate the attitude of one's business without doing it harm.

8.A professional is an expert who is master in a specific field.

Looks like teaching fits all these criteria

Star_Cards
07-05-2011, 10:01 AM
No the point is you wanted to find a way to degrade the teaching profession, by saying they aren't professionals. Then you randomy selected some jobs that require post gradute work to compare it to. Your post is pretty transparent that you somehow think teachers don'r deserve a decent wage.. even though you pointed out you had a family member who earned a masters.. So what, do you think teachers should be minimum wage earnes like the gate guard at Disney world? Trying to cast the teaching profession off as some lowley throw away job that doesn't deserve a respectable wage is rediculous.

I agree with you on defining teaching as a "profession". I don't think he is trying to say they are like a gate guard, but I think he's saying they aren't in the same class as a doctor or lawyer pay grade. I agree with him on that, but don't degrade the job that teachers do. In my opinion, most teachers receive a fair wage when factoring in their time off. I think most over look that when they look at a yearly salary number. Most people look at a yearly salary and assume that they get 2-3 weeks off as part of that pay. Teachers get 6-8 times that and it should be factored in when crunching numbers.

AUTaxMan
07-05-2011, 10:05 AM
No the point is you wanted to find a way to degrade the teaching profession, by saying they aren't professionals. Then you randomy selected some jobs that require post gradute work to compare it to. Your post is pretty transparent that you somehow think teachers don'r deserve a decent wage.. even though you pointed out you had a family member who earned a masters.. So what, do you think teachers should be minimum wage earnes like the gate guard at Disney world? Trying to cast the teaching profession off as some lowley throw away job that doesn't deserve a respectable wage is rediculous.

No, I did not want to find a way to degrade the teaching profession. I am making that point that teachers should not be paid like professionals because they are not professionals. The demand for their skill sets are easily replaced. That is why the market keeps their salaries as low as they are.

The professions that I listed were not randomly selected. They are highly regarded as professions for which premium salaries are paid because of the highly-skilled and knowledgeable persons who engage in them.

Teachers do deserve to be paid a decent salary, but let the market dictate what they make, not the unions. People are generally paid what they are worth.

sanfran22
07-05-2011, 10:05 AM
Wiki -
1.Expert and specialized knowledge in field which one is practicing professionally.[6]

2.Excellent manual/practical and literary skills in relation to profession.[7]

3.High quality work in (examples): creations, products, services, presentations, consultancy, primary/other research, administrative, marketing or other work endeavors.

4.A high standard of professional ethics, behavior and work activities while carrying out one's profession (as an employee, self-employed person, career, enterprise, business, company, or partnership/associate/colleague, etc.). The professional owes a higher duty to a client, often a privilege of confidentiality, as well as a duty not to abandon the client just because he or she may not be able to pay or remunerate the professional. Often the professional is required to put the interest of the client ahead of his own interests.

5.Reasonable work morale and motivation. Having interest and desire to do a job well as holding positive attitude towards the profession are important elements in attaining a high level of professionalism.

6.Participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs b : having a particular profession as a permanent career c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return[6]

7.Appropriate treatment of relationships with colleagues. Special respect should be demonstrated to special people and interns. An example must be set to perpetuate the attitude of one's business without doing it harm.

8.A professional is an expert who is master in a specific field.

Looks like teaching fits all these criteria
I guess being a businessman I do too. I'd never compare myself and my wages to doctors, lawyers ect ect. Does a gym teacher fit that criteria?

sanfran22
07-05-2011, 10:07 AM
No, I did not want to find a way to degrade the teaching profession. I am making that point that teachers should not be paid like professionals because they are not professionals. The demand for their skill sets are easily replaced. That is why the market keeps their salaries as low as they are.

The professions that I listed were not randomly selected. They are highly regarded as professions for which premium salaries are paid because of the highly-skilled and knowledgeable persons who engage in them.

Teachers do deserve to be paid a decent salary, but let the market dictate what they make, not the unions. People are generally paid what they are worth.
Exactly.....

redsoxx11
07-05-2011, 10:17 AM
No, I did not want to find a way to degrade the teaching profession. I am making that point that teachers should not be paid like professionals because they are not professionals. The demand for their skill sets are easily replaced. That is why the market keeps their salaries as low as they are.

The professions that I listed were not randomly selected. They are highly regarded as professions for which premium salaries are paid because of the highly-skilled and knowledgeable persons who engage in them.

Teachers do deserve to be paid a decent salary, but let the market dictate what they make, not the unions. People are generally paid what they are worth.

now your just comparing apples and oranges.. how many teachers besides tenured college professors make 100K + a year like a Doctor? None, that doesn't change the fact that by definition they are still professionals. A navy radar repair tech is a professional, and so is a Navy seal.. one makes more than the other. Doesn't change the fact they are both by deffinition professionals. Just because your having some sort of complex about why teachers are refered to by the same word "professional" as you doesn't mean that they are not one. You just feel slighted by it. So if you want to keep having a pity party, go throw on some Cure and write some sad poetry about it.

redsoxx11
07-05-2011, 10:21 AM
BTW, there are thousands of Lawyers/CPA's/Doctors ect that negotiate wages that are paid by tax payers. So lets get that out of the way that teachers are not the only ones in unions that have negotiating power for wages paid with taxes.

redsoxx11
07-05-2011, 10:23 AM
Unions representing Federal Workers
(AAE) National Association of Aeronautical Examiners (Ind)
Naval Air Station, Bldg. 3221
Pensacola, FL 32508
Phone: (904) 452-2574

President: Brad Crosby
(ACT) Association of Civilian Technicians (Ind)
12510B Lake Ridge Drive
Lake Ridge, VA 22192

Phone: (703) 690-1330

President: Thomas G. Bastas
(AFGE) American Federation of Government Employees (AFL-CIO)
80 F St., NW
Washington, DC 20001

Phone: (202) 639-6435
Fax: (202) 639-6490

President: John Gage
(AFSA) American Foreign Service Association (Ind.)
2101 E St., NW
Washington, DC 20037

Phone: (202) 647-8160
Fax: (202) 338-8244

President: John Naland
(AFSCME) American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees
1625 L. St, NW
Washington, D.C. 20036

Phone: (202) 429-1000
Fax: (202) 429-1102

President: Gerald McEntee
(AFU) Alaska Fishermen's Union (Ind.)
2505 St. Avenue
Room 3
Seattle, WA 98121

Phone: (206) 441-3425

President: Mark T. Coles
(AMC) American Maritime Congress
1300 I Street, NW
Suite 250 West
Washington, DC 20005

Phone: (202) 842-4900
Fax: (202) 842-3492

Director: Glorin Tosi
(ANA) American Nurses Association (Ind.)
600 Maryland Avenue, SW
Suite 100 West
Washington, DC 20024-2571

Phone: (202) 554-4444 ext.7129
Fax: (202) 651-7343

President: Barbara A. Blakeney
(BNA) Balboa Registered Nurses Association (Ind.)
United Nurses Association of California
NUHHCE, AFSCME, AFL-CIO
300 S. Park Avenue
Suite 840
Pomona, CA 91766-1501

Phone: (909) 620-7749
(BPAT) International Brotherhood of Painters and Allied Trades of the United States and Canada (AFL-CIO)
United Nations Building
1750 New York Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20006

Phone: (202) 637-0700
Fax: (202) 637-0771

President: James A. Williams
(CBTC) Columbia Basin Trades Council (AFL-CIO)
2800 1st Avenue
Room 301
Seattle, WA 98121-99352

Phone: (206) 443-1239
Fax: (206) 448-0811

President: Steve Angenbroad
(CIR) Committee of Interns and Residents (Ind.)
386 Park Avenue South
Room 1502
New York, NY 10016

Phone: (212) 725-5500
Fax: (212) 779-2913

Executive Director: March Levy
(CJA) United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of America (AFL-CIO)
101 Constitution Avenue, NW.
Washington, DC 20001

Phone: (202) 546-6206
Fax: (202) 543-5724

President: Douglas J. McCarron
(CPTC) Columbia Power Trades Council (AFL-CIO)
17200 NE Sacramento Street
Grisham, OR 97230

Phone: (503) 262-9125
Fax: (503) 262-9947

President: Jerry Moss
(CREA) Congressional Research Employees Association - Affiliated with International Federation of Professional and Technical Engineers, Local 75 (AFL-CIO)
Library of Congress Research Service
101 Independence Ave SE
Room LM 412
Washington, DC 20540

Phone: (202) 707-7636
Fax: (202) 707-8068

President: Dennis Roth
(ESCA) Engineers and Scientists of California - Affiliated with Marine Engineers' Beneficial Association (AFL-CIO)
1350 Frank Agaua Plaza
8th floor
Oakland, CA 94612

Phone: (510) 238-8320
Fax: (510) 238-8950

Business Manager: Ken Jones
(FEA) Federal Education Association (Ind.)
1201 16th Street NW.
Suite 117
Washington, DC 20036

Phone: (202) 822-7850
Fax: (202) 822-7816

President: Sheridan Pearce
Executive Director: H. T. Nguyen
(FFA) Federal Firefighters Association (Ind.)
1750 New York Avenue, NW.
Third Floor
Washington DC, 20006

Phone: (202) 737-8484
Fax: (202) 737-8418

President: Harold Schaitberger
(FLEA) Federal Law Enforcement Association
350 Old Country Road, Suite 101
Garden City, NY 11530

Phone: (516) 873-8600

President: Richard Gallo
(FOP) Fraternal Order of Police (Ind.)
1320 G Street, SE
Washington, DC 20003

Phone (202) 544-4813
Fax: (202) 544-5918

Chairman: Leon Capps
(GCIU) Graphic Communications International Union (AFL-CIO)
1900 L Street, NW.
Washington, DC 20036

Phone: (202) 462-1400
Fax: (202) 721-0600

President: George Tedeschi
(IAFF) International Association of Fire Fighters (AFL-CIO)
1750 New York Avenue, NW.
Washington, DC 20036

Phone: (202) 737-8484
Fax: (202) 737-8418

President: Harold Schaitberger
(IAM) International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (AFL-CIO)
9000 Machinists Place
Upper Marlboro, MD 20772-2687

Phone: (301) 967-4500
Fax: (301) 967-4588

President: Robert Buffenbarger
(IATC) International Association of Tool Craftsmen (Ind.)
3591 13th Avenue
Racine, WI 53403

Phone: (309) 782-5776
Secretary: Michael Kubarth
(IATSE) International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees and Moving Picture Technicians, Artists and Allied Crafts of the United States and Canada (AFL-CIO)
1430 Broadway
20th Floor
New York, NY 10018

Phone: (212) 730-1770
Fax: (212)730-7809

President: Thomas C. Short
(IBEW) International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (AFL-CIO)
1125 15th Street, NW.
Washington, DC 20005

Phone: (202) 833-7000
Fax (202) 467-6316

President: Edwin D. Hill

(IBFO) International Brotherhood of Firemen and Oilers (AFL-CIO)
1023 - 15th Street NW
10th Floor
Washington, DC 20005

Phone: (202) 962-0981
Fax : (202) 872-1222

President: George J. Francisco Jr.
(IBT) International Brotherhood of Teamsters, Chauffeurs, Warehousemen and Helpers of America (AFL-CIO)
25 Louisiana Avenue, NW.
Washington, DC 20001

Phone: (202) 624-6800
Fax: (202-624-8110

President: James P. Hoffa
(ICWU) International Chemical Workers Union (AFL-CIO) of the United Food and Commercial Workers International Union
1655 West Market Street
Akron, OH 44313-7095

Phone: (330) 867-2444
Fax: (330) 867-0544

President: Larry V. Gregoire

(IEF) Indian Educators Federation (AFL-CIO)
2301 Yale Blvd., SE
Suite E-1
Albuquerque, NM 87106

Phone: (505) 243-4088
Fax: (505) 243-4098

President: Patrick Carr
(IFPTE) International Federation of Professional and Technical Engineers (AFL-CIO)
8630 Fenton Street
Suite 400
Silver Springs, MD 20910

Phone: (301) 565-9016
Fax: (301)-565-0018

President: Gregory Junemann
(IGUA) International Guard Union of America (Ind.)
Red River Army Depot
Bowie, TX 75507-5000

Phone: (903) 334-3333
Fax (903) 334-4115

President: Don Collins
(IUOE) International Union of Operating Engineers (AFL-CIO)
1125 17th Street, NW.
Washington, DC 20036

Phone: (202) 429-9100
Fax (202) 778-2616

President: Frank Hanley

(IUPA) International Union of Police Associations (AFL-CIO)
1421 Prince Street
Suite 330
Alexandria, VA 22314

Phone: (703) 549-7473

President: Sam Cabral
(LIUNA) Laborers' International Union of North America (AFL-CIO)
905 16th St. NW
Washington, DC 20006

Phone: (202) 737-8320
Fax: (202) 737-2754

President: Terrence O'Sullivan
(MAP) Michigan Association of Police (Ind.)
27704 Frankland
Southfield, MI 48034

Phone: (248) 304-8800
Fax (248)304-8810

President: Part Biadal
(MEBA) National Marine Engineers' Beneficial Association (AFL-CIO)
444 North Capitol Street NW
Suite 800
Washington, DC 20001

Phone: (202) 638-5355
Fax (202) 638-5369

President: Ron Davis
(M.P.) International Organization of Masters, Mates and Pilots (ILA-Marine Division) - Affiliated with International Longshoremen's Association (AFL-CIO)
700 Maritime Boulevard
Linthicum Heights, MD 21090

Phone: (410) 850-8700
Fax (410) 850-0973

President: Timothy A. Brown
(MSAA) Methods and Standards Analysts' Association (Ind.)
P. O. Box 4611
Warrington, FL 32507

Phone: (904) 452-4425
President: Tom Clarkson
(MSPB/PA) Merit Systems Protection Board/ Professional Association (Ind.)
New York Field Office MSPB
26 Federal Plaza, 31st Floor
Suite 3137A
New York, NY 10278

Phone: (202) 653-6772
Chairman: Ben Edreich
(NAAE) National Association of Agricultural Employees (Ind.)
P. O. Box 31143
Honolulu, HI 96820-1143

Phone: (808) 861-8449
Fax; (808) 861-8469

President: Michael Randall
(NAATA) National Army Air Technicians Association - Affiliated with American Federation of Government Employees
123 Ploch Road
Clifton, NJ 07013

Phone: (201) 835-9219

President: Thomas R. Pocock
(NAATS) National Association of Air Traffic Specialists (Ind.)
11303 Amherst Avenue
Suite 4
Wheaton, MD 20902

Phone: (301) 933-6228
Fax: (301) 933-3902

President: Wally Pike
(NAGE) National Association of Government Employees and International Brotherhood of Police Officers - Affiliated with Service Employees' International Union (AFL-CIO)
159 Burgin Parkway
Quincy, MA 02169

Phone: (617) 376-0220
Fax: (617) 376-0285

President: David Holway
(NAGI) National Association of Government Inspectors- IFPTE Local 8 (Ind.)
P.O. Box 181352
Coronado, CA 92178-1352

Phone: (619) 545-2155
Fax: (619) 437-9131

President: Earl Bryers
(NAPFE) National Alliance of Postal and Federal Employees (Ind.)
1628 11th Street, NW.
Washington, DC 20001

Phone: (202) 939-6325
Fax: (202) 939-6389

President: James McGee
(NATCA) National Air Traffic Controllers Association - (MEBA/AFL-CIO)
1325 Massachusetts Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20005

Phone: (202) 628-5451
Fax: (202) 628-5767

President: John Carr
(NEA) National Education Association (Ind.)
1201 16th Street, NW.
Washington, DC 20036

Phone: (202) 833-4000
Fax: 202-822-7023

President: Robert Chase
(NFFE) National Federation of Federal Employees (Ind.)
1016 16th Street, NW.
Washington, DC 20036

Phone: (202) 862-4400
Fax: (202) 862-4432

President: Richard Brown
(NLRBPA) National Labor Relations Board Professional Association (Ind.)
1099 14th St., NW.
Suite 9120
Washington, DC 20570

Phone: (202) 273-1749
Fax: (202) 273-4286

President: Leslie Rossen
(NLRBU) National Labor Relations Board Union (Ind.)
26 Federal Plaza, Room 3614
New York, NY 10278-0104

Phone: (212) 264-0319
Fax: (212) 264-2450

President: Eric Brooks
(NTEU) National Treasury Employees Union (Ind.)
901 E Street, NW.
Suite 600
Washington, DC 20004

Phone: (202) 783-4444
Fax: (202) 628-3930

President: Colleen Kelley
(NULI) National Union of Labor Investigators (Ind.)
(Formerly the National Union of Compliance Officers)
Room 831 - 1240 East 9th St.
Cleveland, OH 44199

Phone: (216) 357-5455
Fax: (216) 357-5425

President: Leonard Drinkard
(NWSEO) National Weather Service Employees Organization - Affiliated with Marine Engineers' Beneficial Association (AFL-CIO)
12 Jennings Place
Cohoes, New York 12047

Phone: (518) 237-3398
Email: nwseo@capital.net

President: Paul Greaves
(OAA) National Operators Analysts Association - Affiliated with International Federation of Professional and Technical Engineers (AFL-CIO)
8630 Fenton Street
Suite 400
Silver Spring, MD 20910

Phone (301) 566-9016

President: Paul E. Almeida
(OFT) Overseas Federation of Teachers (AFL-CIO)
555 NJ Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20001

Phone: 011-390-586-503418

President: Marie Sainz-Funaro
(OPEIU) Office and Professional Employees International Union (AFL-CIO)
265 W. 14th Street
Suite 610
New York, NY 10011

Phone: (212) 675-3210
Fax: (212) 727-3466

President: Michael Goodwin
(PAACE) Professional Association of Aeronautical Center Employees
5710 SW 63rd Building L
Room 130
Oklahoma City, OK 73169-6974

Phone: (405) 954-3685 / 954-3220
Fax: (405) 954-3574

President: Samuel B. Hendrix, III
(PASS) Professional Airways System Specialists (AFL-CIO)
1150 17th St, NW.
Suite 702
Washington, DC 20036

Phone: (202) 293-7277
Fax: (202) 293-7727

President: Michael Fanfalone
(PBA) Police Benevolent Association (Ind.)
1900 Brannan Road
McDonough, GA 30253

Phone: 1-(800)-827-2215
Fax: (770) 389-4572

President: Jack Roberts
Office Manager: Renee Dickson
(PESO) Professional Engineers and Scientists Organization - Affilliated with International Federation of Professional and Technical Engineers- (AFL-CIO)
P. O. Box 180866
Coronado, CA 92178

Phone: (619) 545-2710
Fax: (619) 545-2992

President: Jim Leland
(PIU) Pace International Union (Former Oil, Chemical and Atomic Workers International Union (AFL-CIO)
255 Union Boulevard
Lakewood, CO 80228

Phone: (303) 987-2229

President: Boyd Young

(POPA) Patent Office Professional Association (Ind.)
P. O. Box 15848
Arlington, VA 22215

Phone: (703) 308-0818
Fax: (703) 308-0818

President: Ronald J. Stern
Vice-President: Lawrence J. Oresky
(PPDSE) International Plate Printers, Die Stampers and Engravers Union of North America (AFL-CIO)
14th & C Streets, SW.
Washington, DC 20228

Phone: (202) 874-2693

President: Daniel Bradley

(PPF) United Association of Journeymen and Apprentices of the Plumbing and Pipe Fitting Industry of the United States and Canada (AFL-CIO)
901 Massachusetts Ave., NW
Washington, DC 20001

Phone: (202) 628-5823
Fax: (202) 628-5024

President: Martin J. Maddaloni
Secretary-Treasurer: Thomas A. Patchelo
(PPMWS) Printing, Publishing, & Media Workers of the CWA (Communications Workers of America) - Formerly the International Typographical Union (AFL-CIO)
501 3rd Street, NW.
Washington, DC 20001-2797

Phone: (202) 434-1100
Fax: (202)434-1375

President: Morton Bahr
Secretary-Treasurer: Barbara Easterling
(RWDSU) Retail, Wholesale and Department Store Unions (AFL-CIO)
30 East 29th Street
New York, NY 10016

Phone: (212) 684-5300
Fax:(212) 779-2809

President: Stuart Appelbaum
Secretary-Treasurer: Charlie N. Hall Sr.
(SEIU) Service Employees International Union (AFL-CIO)
1313 L Street, NW.
Washington, DC 20005

Phone: (202) 898-3200
Fax: (202) 898-3402

President: Andy Stern
Secretary-Treasurer: Anna Burger
(SIU) Seafarers' International Union of North America (AFL-CIO)
5201 Auth Way
Camp Springs, MD 20746

Phone: (301) 899-0675
Fax: (301) 702-6060

President: Michael Sacco
Executive Vice-President: John Say
(SMW) Sheet Metal Workers International Association (AFL-CIO)
1750 New York Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20006

Phone: (202) 783-5880
Fax: (202) 662-0894

President: Michael Sullivan
(SPORT) SPORT Air Traffic Controllers Organization (Ind.)
44438 8th Street, East
Lancaster, CA 93535

Phone: (805) 277-3555

President: Rex Campbell
(TSA) Technical Skills Association (Ind.)
P. O. Box 69
North Highland, CA 95660

Phone: (916) 643-4639

President: David Gatlin
(UFCWU) United Food and Commercial Workers International Union (AFL-CIO)
1775 K Street, NW.
Washington, DC 20006

Phone: (202) 223-3111
Fax: (202) 466-1562

President: Douglas H. Dority
(UNAC) United Nurses Associations of California (AFL-CIO)
NUHHCE, AFSCME
300 S. Park Avenue
Suite 840
Pomona, CA 91766

Phone: (909) 620-7749
Fax: (909) 620-9119

President: Cathy Sackman, RN
Vice-President: Sonia Moseley, RN
(UPSA) United Police and Security Association (Ind.)
Defense Distribution Region West
Tracy Site
In care of ASCW-BPST
Tracey, CA 95376

Phone (209) 832-9302

President: James E. Dukas Jr.
Vice President: James Thompson
(UPTO) United Power Trades Organization (Ind.)
942 Prune Orchard Drive
Colfax, WA 99111

Phone: (541) 367-5433

President: Travis Brock
Secretary: Claude Leinbach
(UPWC) Union of Public Works Centers (Ind.)
P. O. Box 24622
Main Post Office
Oakland, CA 94623

Phone: (510) 235-7352

President: Maxon Powell
(VASNC) Veterans Affairs Staff Nurses Council
ATTN: Nursing Service (118)
Veterans Affairs Medical Center
5000 W. National Avenue
Milwaukee, WI 53295

Phone: (414) 384-2000 Ext. 1705

President: Glen Grippen
Vice-President: Del Slowik
(WPESTA) West Point Elementary School Teachers Association (Ind.)
705A Barry Road
West Point, NY 10996-1196

Phone: (914) 938-2923

President: Dorthea McGuigan

POSTAL ORGANIZATIONS
(APWU) American Postal Workers Union (AFL-CIO)
1300 L Street, NW.
Washington, DC 2005

Phone: (202)842-4200
Fax: (202) 842-4297

President: Willis Barris
General Executive Vice President: Cliff Guffey
(NALC) National Association of Letter Carriers (AFL-CIO)
100 Indiana Avenue, NW.
Washington, DC 20001

Phone (202) 393-4695
Fax: (202) 737-1540

President: William H. Young
Secretary-Treasurer: Jane Bruendel
(NAPS) National Association of Postal Supervisors (Ind.)
1727 King Street
Suite 400
Alexandria, VA 22314-2753

Phone: (703) 836-9660
Fax: (703) 836-9665

President: Vincent Palladino
Executive Vice President: Ted Kedding
(NAPUS) National Association of Postmasters of the United States (Ind.)
8 Hebert Street
Alexandria, VA 22305

Phone: (703) 683-9027
Fax: (703) 683-6820

President: Wally Olihovik
Executive Director: Charles Moser
(NLP) National League of Postmasters (Ind.)
1023 North Royal Street
Alexandria, VA 22314-1569

Phone: (703) 548-5922
Fax: (703) 863-8937

President: Steve D. Lemora
Executive Director: Brenda Tanner
(NPMHU) National Postal Mail Handlers Union
11 Conneticut Avenue, NW.
Suite 500
Washington, DC 20036

Phone: (202) 833-9095
Fax: (202) 833-0008

National President: John F. Hegarty
National Secretary-Treasurer: Mark A. Gardner
(NRLCA) National Rural Letter Carriers' Association (Ind.)
1630 Duke Street
Alexandria, VA 22314

Phone (703) 684-5545
Fax: (703) 548-8735

President: Dale A. Holton

AUTaxMan
07-05-2011, 10:26 AM
now your just comparing apples and oranges.. how many teachers besides tenured college professors make 100K + a year like a Doctor? None, that doesn't change the fact that by definition they are still professionals. A navy radar repair tech is a professional, and so is a Navy seal.. one makes more than the other. Doesn't change the fact they are both by deffinition professionals. Just because your having some sort of complex about why teachers are refered to by the same word "professional" as you doesn't mean that they are not one. You just feel slighted by it. So if you want to keep having a pity party, go throw on some Cure and write some sad poetry about it.

The original question raised by dfr52 was this: "Why is it unfair for teachers to want to be paid like the professionals and to fight for it?" He appeared to be arguing that teachers should be paid like professionals such as doctors, lawyers, accountants, etc.

I have demonstrated that teachers are not paid like professionals because they are not true professionals. If they want to call themselves such, I don't have a problem with it, but they aren't paid like doctors and lawyers and such because they aren't as valuable from a business perspective. Again, people are generally paid what they are worth. When public sector unions are involved, people start to get paid more than they are worth, and the taxpayers have to shoulder the burden.

redsoxx11
07-05-2011, 10:29 AM
SO basically you tried to answer a question that was fundementally flawed in the first place. Since by definition teachers are professionals. And you just decided to make up your own definition of that a professional is with out actually knowing the criteria for it, so it would fit neetly into your anti union tantrum . Pretty intellectualy dishonest for someone with 3 years of law school.

AUTaxMan
07-05-2011, 10:42 AM
SO basically you tried to answer a question that was fundementally flawed in the first place. Since by definition teachers are professionals. And you just decided to make up your own definition of that a professional is with out actually knowing the criteria for it, so it would fit neetly into your anti union tantrum . Pretty intellectualy dishonest for someone with 3 years of law school.

How are teachers professionals by definition?

dfr52
07-05-2011, 11:07 AM
I am not saying their jobs aren't important. I am saying that they are not professionals. I could roll out of bed and teach pretty much any high school subject.


lol, I can't go back to school to get a medical license, but I can go back and get a teaching certificate at any time with basically any degree....

Wow that's very impressive. I don't question your knowledge of the material but teaching and understanding are two different skill sets. I had the opportunity to work with a student teacher who made the career transition from a "math" profession to high school math teacher and he was terrible at providing instruction. He knew the material and was intelligent but lacked the ability to manage a classroom and provide high quality instruction.

You could always go back to school to become an LPN or RN b/c it takes about the same time to get those degrees as a teaching degree?

AUTaxMan
07-05-2011, 11:09 AM
He knew the material and was intelligent but lacked the ability to manage a classroom and provide high quality instruction.

That describes a lot of teachers.

sanfran22
07-05-2011, 11:12 AM
Wow that's very impressive. I don't question your knowledge of the material but teaching and understanding are two different skill sets. I had the opportunity to work with a student teacher who made the career transition from a "math" profession to high school math teacher and he was terrible at providing instruction. He knew the material and was intelligent but lacked the ability to manage a classroom and provide high quality instruction.

You could always go back to school to become an LPN or RN b/c it takes about the same time to get those degrees as a teaching degree?
I'm not talking about time. I'm saying that with a business degree I can go back and get a teaching certificate in my line of work. I could teach business classes. The LPN and RN are not the same thing. I'd have to go do everything for that degree. But if I were already a LPN/RN could I go get a teaching certificate and teach health?

dfr52
07-05-2011, 11:24 AM
I agree with you on defining teaching as a "profession". I don't think he is trying to say they are like a gate guard, but I think he's saying they aren't in the same class as a doctor or lawyer pay grade. I agree with him on that, but don't degrade the job that teachers do. In my opinion, most teachers receive a fair wage when factoring in their time off. I think most over look that when they look at a yearly salary number. Most people look at a yearly salary and assume that they get 2-3 weeks off as part of that pay. Teachers get 6-8 times that and it should be factored in when crunching numbers.

In Ohio, educators are required to earn their Masters degrees and then attend graduate courses every few years to keep their licenses. I won't argue if they are in the class as doctors or lawyers but they should be up there w/ nurses who earn more and work about the same (if they work 3 day weeks).

dfr52
07-05-2011, 11:29 AM
I'm not talking about time. I'm saying that with a business degree I can go back and get a teaching certificate in my line of work. I could teach business classes. The LPN and RN are not the same thing. I'd have to go do everything for that degree. But if I were already a LPN/RN could I go get a teaching certificate and teach health?

How is it not about time if you could get a teaching degree or a nursing degree in the same amount of time? Both career transitions take about the same amount of time and course work.

AUTaxMan
07-05-2011, 11:29 AM
In Ohio, educators are required to earn their Masters degrees and then attend graduate courses every few years to keep their licenses. I won't argue if they are in the class as doctors or lawyers but they should be up there w/ nurses who earn more and work about the same (if they work 3 day weeks).

Just because a masters degree is required for licensure does not mean that they are required for proficiency. The post-graduate degree licensure requirements for teaching are a newly-created device by the states primarily designed to generate education revenue. There were excellent teachers before these ridiculous requirements which are completely unnecessary in my opinion.

On the other hand, you CANNOT practice law, medicine, nursing, etc. WITHOUT the higher level of education.

dfr52
07-05-2011, 11:32 AM
That describes a lot of teachers.

Those teachers are being phased out as the profession has changed over the past 20 years. Today's teachers must be able to do more than know their content area.

sanfran22
07-05-2011, 11:34 AM
How is it not about time if you could get a teaching degree or a nursing degree in the same amount of time? Both career transitions take about the same amount of time and course work.
I think you are missing my point. Anyone, for the most part, can get a teaching certificate if they went to college. It's a whole new career path if you want to be a nurse.

AUTaxMan
07-05-2011, 11:36 AM
Those teachers are being phased out as the profession has changed over the past 20 years. Today's teachers must be able to do more than know their content area.

If that is the case, how come test scores aren't getting any better?

dfr52
07-05-2011, 11:37 AM
Just because a masters degree is required for licensure does not mean that they are required for proficiency. The post-graduate degree licensure requirements for teaching are a newly-created device by the states primarily designed to generate education revenue. There were excellent teachers before these ridiculous requirements which are completely unnecessary in my opinion.

On the other hand, you CANNOT practice law, medicine, nursing, etc. WITHOUT the higher level of education.

Nursing and teaching have similar requirements. Both require degrees, field hours, and testing. How can continued education not make teachers better? Any profession improves w/ more education.

dfr52
07-05-2011, 11:40 AM
If that is the case, how come test scores aren't getting any better?

Because the scores have more to do w/ parental involvement and wealth than anything else.

AUTaxMan
07-05-2011, 11:42 AM
Because the scores have more to do w/ parental involvement and wealth than anything else.

So teachers really aren't all that important?

dfr52
07-05-2011, 11:42 AM
I think you are missing my point. Anyone, for the most part, can get a teaching certificate if they went to college. It's a whole new career path if you want to be a nurse.

Same w/ nursing. I know alot of people who are returning to school right now to get nuring degrees and it takes the same amount of time to do the same for a teaching licensure.

dfr52
07-05-2011, 11:44 AM
So teachers really aren't all that important?

Didn't say that. The foundation of an education starts at home.

AUTaxMan
07-05-2011, 11:44 AM
Same w/ nursing. I know alot of people who are returning to school right now to get nuring degrees and it takes the same amount of time to do the same for a teaching licensure.

This is true, but can you be a proficient nurse without a nursing degree? Can you be a proficient teacher without a teaching degree?

AUTaxMan
07-05-2011, 11:47 AM
Didn't say that. The foundation of an education starts at home.

I agree. I now ask how important can teachers be if most of a person's education take place at home?

mrveggieman
07-05-2011, 11:51 AM
I agree. I now ask how important can teachers be if most of a person's education take place at home?


That's just like asking what's the point of going to church if one could pray and read the bible at home?

AUTaxMan
07-05-2011, 12:02 PM
That's just like asking what's the point of going to church if one could pray and read the bible at home?

He's arguing that they should be paid like professionals. I am trying to determine why.

mrveggieman
07-05-2011, 12:56 PM
He's arguing that they should be paid like professionals. I am trying to determine why.


It's still the same basic idea. The foundation of education just like the foundation of God starts at home. If you are not taught about God from your parents just like if you are not taught about the value of education from your parents you more than likely will not have a relationship with God just like you more than likely will not value education. Of course this is not always true but more often than not.

AUTaxMan
07-05-2011, 12:59 PM
It's still the same basic idea. The foundation of education just like the foundation of God starts at home. If you are not taught about God from your parents just like if you are not taught about the value of education from your parents you more than likely will not have a relationship with God just like you more than likely will not value education. Of course this is not always true but more often than not.

What does that have to do with paying teachers like professionals?

mrveggieman
07-05-2011, 01:04 PM
What does that have to do with paying teachers like professionals?


Teachers provide an invaluable service. Yes they may not have to go to school as long as doctors do but not everyone is cut out to be a teacher and like I said earlier without teachers there would be no doctors or any other professionals for that matter.

Star_Cards
07-05-2011, 01:04 PM
In Ohio, educators are required to earn their Masters degrees and then attend graduate courses every few years to keep their licenses. I won't argue if they are in the class as doctors or lawyers but they should be up there w/ nurses who earn more and work about the same (if they work 3 day weeks).

all teachers in Ohio have to have their masters?

I guess the issue is that nurses are usually paid for by private companies and most teachers are paid by the government. Private companies are typically able to pay more for their employees because they are charging for a service. Hospitals bring in money and pay their employees. Schools don't sell a service per say. They are funded differently.

Yes nurses make very good pay and have lots of days off, but they do usually work 12 hour days. While they are not working 40 hours a week typically, even if they work 3 days of 12 hour shifts that's close to a full work week.

I get the comparison you are trying to make but being paid from tax money and by a private company that sells a service or product is very different.

Star_Cards
07-05-2011, 02:29 PM
Teachers provide an invaluable service. Yes they may not have to go to school as long as doctors do but not everyone is cut out to be a teacher and like I said earlier without teachers there would be no doctors or any other professionals for that matter.

you can play the chicken or the egg scenario with anything really.

If they want to raise teacher pay then they need to be able to get rid of the bad ones. Who pays for the pay increase that people want to give teachers?

sanfran22
07-05-2011, 02:35 PM
I don't have a problem paying teachers as professionals IF and WHEN they are a private enterprise. If they are payed by the taxpayers they should not be able to dictate their deals via a strongarmed union.

mrveggieman
07-05-2011, 02:56 PM
I don't have a problem paying teachers as professionals IF and WHEN they are a private enterprise. If they are payed by the taxpayers they should not be able to dictate their deals via a strongarmed union.


Would you feel the same way about a police officer union? Why or why not?

sanfran22
07-05-2011, 02:58 PM
Would you feel the same way about a police officer union? Why or why not?
They need some form of protection since they are pretty political, and I would probably pay them more based on the fact that they actually put their life on the line. But I don't think I would let any public sector employee have a full blown union.

dfr52
07-05-2011, 03:41 PM
I agree. I now ask how important can teachers be if most of a person's education take place at home?

Its not the actual learning that occurs at home but support by the family. More often than not successful students come from homes that value education. If a parent or caregiver fails to value education the student will pick-up on that behavior and not be interested in school.

AUTaxMan
07-05-2011, 03:45 PM
Its not the actual learning that occurs at home but support by the family. More often than not successful students come from homes that value education. If a parent or caregiver fails to value education the student will pick-up on that behavior and not be interested in school.

So the teacher actually serves a tertiary role in a person's education. Again, why should they be paid on the same level as professionals?

redsoxx11
07-05-2011, 04:00 PM
So the teacher actually serves a tertiary role in a person's education. Again, why should they be paid on the same level as professionals?

Teachers are professionals, and no one is saying they should make as much as a nuero surgen, I mean this was already explained to you.... You just keep harping on it becasue you don't like unions.

AUTaxMan
07-05-2011, 04:29 PM
Teachers are professionals, and no one is saying they should make as much as a nuero surgen, I mean this was already explained to you.... You just keep harping on it becasue you don't like unions.

You're right. I don't like unions. There is no justification for the unions to artificially bolster the salaries that teachers are paid beyond their worth in the marketplace. I have a problem with this because I pay their salaries. When I pay for something, I like to know that I am not overpaying.

redsoxx11
07-05-2011, 05:28 PM
You're right. I don't like unions. There is no justification for the unions to artificially bolster the salaries that teachers are paid beyond their worth in the marketplace. I have a problem with this because I pay their salaries. When I pay for something, I like to know that I am not overpaying.

Except you are comparing there worth to unrelated professions that make far more then they do. So your comparison makes no sense. 4 star Generals make far less then CEO's of large corporations, yet they do 10x the work. By your standard we should be paying 4 star generals 100-200 million a year. you aren't the only person in the world paying taxes, if you don't like the $1 that you contribute to a teachers salary then find a way to claim that dollar back on your tax return. It's your opinion that unions are bolstering teacher salaries. If you want to keep more of your tax money, get churches to start paying property taxes. Maybe your's will go down a little.

dfr52
07-05-2011, 05:38 PM
you can play the chicken or the egg scenario with anything really.

If they want to raise teacher pay then they need to be able to get rid of the bad ones. Who pays for the pay increase that people want to give teachers?

Good teachers do not care for those who make the profession look bad either. To remove underperforming teachers States need to adopt a system that uses scores, administrative evaluation, and the feedback from an outside agency not connected to any districts.

dfr52
07-05-2011, 05:45 PM
So the teacher actually serves a tertiary role in a person's education. Again, why should they be paid on the same level as professionals?

Because they provide education to students. Remove teachers and there is very little (if any) learning in schools. Like I said earlier, parents provide support while educators teach. Teachers have been having some success for years w/out family involvement but students usually fail w/out teachers.

dfr52
07-05-2011, 05:49 PM
all teachers in Ohio have to have their masters?

I guess the issue is that nurses are usually paid for by private companies and most teachers are paid by the government. Private companies are typically able to pay more for their employees because they are charging for a service. Hospitals bring in money and pay their employees. Schools don't sell a service per say. They are funded differently.

Yes nurses make very good pay and have lots of days off, but they do usually work 12 hour days. While they are not working 40 hours a week typically, even if they work 3 days of 12 hour shifts that's close to a full work week.

I get the comparison you are trying to make but being paid from tax money and by a private company that sells a service or product is very different.

Yes, licensed teachers are required to get a Masters degree to keep their license.

AUTaxMan
07-05-2011, 05:59 PM
Except you are comparing there worth to unrelated professions that make far more then they do. So your comparison makes no sense. 4 star Generals make far less then CEO's of large corporations, yet they do 10x the work. By your standard we should be paying 4 star generals 100-200 million a year. you aren't the only person in the world paying taxes, if you don't like the $1 that you contribute to a teachers salary then find a way to claim that dollar back on your tax return. It's your opinion that unions are bolstering teacher salaries. If you want to keep more of your tax money, get churches to start paying property taxes. Maybe your's will go down a little.

"Their worth," not "there worth." What grade are you in?

AUTaxMan
07-05-2011, 06:01 PM
Because they provide education to students. Remove teachers and there is very little (if any) learning in schools. Like I said earlier, parents provide support while educators teach. Teachers have been having some success for years w/out family involvement but students usually fail w/out teachers.

I think you have it backwards. Parents teach while educators provide support.

duane1969
07-05-2011, 06:38 PM
I agree. I now ask how important can teachers be if most of a person's education take place at home?

Most of the formal learning process does not occur at home. However, in the early developmental stages before formal education begins, the parents have an eternal impact.

A parent who interacts with thier child, plays with their child, talks to their child, listens to music with their child and exposes their child to vibrant colorful experiences will almost always produce a young student that is more intellectual.

On the flip side, if a parent leaves their child in a car seat or playpen all day, every day and only gives it attention when it cries and it is otherwise ignored, that baby will almost definitely be challenged.

In both cases, the teacher's role will be secondary to what impact the parent had.



So the teacher actually serves a tertiary role in a person's education. Again, why should they be paid on the same level as professionals?

Because without their involvement there will be no more professionals.

While there are exceptions to the norm, most parents lack the skill to teach little more than basic math, reading and writing. The average parent lacks the knowledge base to teach trig, calculus, physics, anatomy, biology, social science, literary concepts, structured writing, technical writing...you get the point.


Yes, licensed teachers are required to get a Masters degree to keep their license.

How long to you have to get it?

redsoxx11
07-05-2011, 07:27 PM
"Their worth," not "there worth." What grade are you in?

I'm in the grade that obliterated your weak anti teacher argument and made you look like a moron :)

But your desperation attempt with the grammar police move was cherry :cheer2:

dfr52
07-05-2011, 07:50 PM
Most of the formal learning process does not occur at home. However, in the early developmental stages before formal education begins, the parents have an eternal impact.

A parent who interacts with thier child, plays with their child, talks to their child, listens to music with their child and exposes their child to vibrant colorful experiences will almost always produce a young student that is more intellectual.

On the flip side, if a parent leaves their child in a car seat or playpen all day, every day and only gives it attention when it cries and it is otherwise ignored, that baby will almost definitely be challenged.

In both cases, the teacher's role will be secondary to what impact the parent had.




Because without their involvement there will be no more professionals.

While there are exceptions to the norm, most parents lack the skill to teach little more than basic math, reading and writing. The average parent lacks the knowledge base to teach trig, calculus, physics, anatomy, biology, social science, literary concepts, structured writing, technical writing...you get the point.



How long to you have to get it?

Exactly.

I believe its around 5 years.

dfr52
07-05-2011, 07:53 PM
I'm in the grade that obliterated your weak anti teacher argument and made you look like a moron :)

But your desperation attempt with the grammar police move was cherry :cheer2:

Agreed, one grammatical mistake doesn't ruin a well stated argument. This is a hobby message board so I think a few mistakes are perfectly fine.

tutall
07-05-2011, 08:11 PM
Except you are comparing there worth to unrelated professions that make far more then they do. So your comparison makes no sense. 4 star Generals make far less then CEO's of large corporations, yet they do 10x the work. By your standard we should be paying 4 star generals 100-200 million a year. you aren't the only person in the world paying taxes, if you don't like the $1 that you contribute to a teachers salary then find a way to claim that dollar back on your tax return. It's your opinion that unions are bolstering teacher salaries. If you want to keep more of your tax money, get churches to start paying property taxes. Maybe your's will go down a little.

I dont think that is really what he is saying... What he is saying is that teachers make a pretty fair salary. It is pretty easy to replce MOST teachers.. He is also saying while they are important they are not on the level of being irreplaceable as a good attorney, a good doctor etc... Since they are not on that level they should not be paid like they are (which they arent) but the union is trying to push them to that level. I dont have a problem with the profession either and if you want to call a teacher a professional I dont have a problem with it. But there is a certain point where a teachers pay has to have its limit. States are in financial trouble and asking for a pay or benefits increase when the private sector has had to make deep cuts is ridiculous.



If you want to keep more of your tax money, get churches to start paying property taxes. Maybe your's will go down a little.

Wow... Do you realize how tiny of a difference that would make in property taxes?

redsoxx11
07-05-2011, 08:24 PM
I dont think that is really what he is saying... What he is saying is that teachers make a pretty fair salary. It is pretty easy to replce MOST teachers.. He is also saying while they are important they are not on the level of being irreplaceable as a good attorney, a good doctor etc... Since they are not on that level they should not be paid like they are (which they arent) but the union is trying to push them to that level. I dont have a problem with the profession either and if you want to call a teacher a professional I dont have a problem with it. But there is a certain point where a teachers pay has to have its limit. States are in financial trouble and asking for a pay or benefits increase when the private sector has had to make deep cuts is ridiculous.



Wow... Do you realize how tiny of a difference that would make in property taxes?

Actually in some places, lets just say the northeast. Most churches are sitting on prime realestate that could easily be a large tax revenue generator for cities and towns.

redsoxx11
07-05-2011, 08:28 PM
I dont think that is really what he is saying... What he is saying is that teachers make a pretty fair salary. It is pretty easy to replce MOST teachers.. He is also saying while they are important they are not on the level of being irreplaceable as a good attorney, a good doctor etc... Since they are not on that level they should not be paid like they are (which they arent) but the union is trying to push them to that level. I dont have a problem with the profession either and if you want to call a teacher a professional I dont have a problem with it. But there is a certain point where a teachers pay has to have its limit. States are in financial trouble and asking for a pay or benefits increase when the private sector has had to make deep cuts is ridiculous.



Wow... Do you realize how tiny of a difference that would make in property taxes?

I'm not seeing teacher -en mass right now asking for large compensation packages or raises, in fact taking Wisconsin for example they were making concessions. Trying to blame mismanagment of tax revenue and or lack there of revenue because some rep gov thinks his rich buddies need tax breaks doesn't give anyone cart blanche to try and turn teachers into minimum wage earners.

tutall
07-05-2011, 08:39 PM
I'm not seeing teacher -en mass right now asking for large compensation packages or raises, in fact taking Wisconsin for example they were making concessions. Trying to blame mismanagment of tax revenue and or lack there of revenue because some rep gov thinks his rich buddies need tax breaks doesn't give anyone cart blanche to try and turn teachers into minimum wage earners.

Really? I thought the issue was paying more into healthcare and retirement plans and destroy collective bargaining which pits teachers verses taxpayers in a system where someone will be upset in the end. I guess I assumed pay was not ever a question in Wisconsin as it was never really reported that I saw anyways... Can you name me one purpose the teachers union serves besides making teachers pay generally above the median pay even though they receive 13-15 weeks of vacation per year?

redsoxx11
07-05-2011, 08:41 PM
Really? I thought the issue was paying more into healthcare and retirement plans and destroy collective bargaining which pits teachers verses taxpayers in a system where someone will be upset in the end. I guess I assumed pay was not ever a question in Wisconsin as it was never really reported that I saw anyways... Can you name me one purpose the teachers union serves besides making teachers pay generally above the median pay even though they receive 13-15 weeks of vacation per year?

median pay of what? of America? What are you trying to compare a teachers salary too?

I have a friend who is a public school teacher and a friend that teaches at a charter school, when I was a GS-5 I was making more then both of them. I'm not seeing how teachers are making to much.

tutall
07-05-2011, 08:45 PM
Actually in some places, lets just say the northeast. Most churches are sitting on prime realestate that could easily be a large tax revenue generator for cities and towns.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,787795,00.html

According to that article, the approx. value of church owned property is roughly 5 billion... I dont know what the tax rate is in other states but in Indiana they would be capped at probably 3 percent of the value... Maybe even 2 percent because of recent legislation.... That puts roughly 150 million in tax revenue per year... which is roughly the amount in the budget to put funyuns into the vending machines in the pentagon.....

tutall
07-05-2011, 08:46 PM
median pay of what? of America? What are you trying to compare a teachers salary too?

I have a friend who is a public school teacher and a friend that teaches at a charter school, when I was a GS-5 I was making more then both of them. I'm not seeing how teachers are making to much.

median pay state by state... I havent done the research but I would be shocked if teachers make under the state average in any states even though they work 25 percent less time than most workers

redsoxx11
07-05-2011, 08:52 PM
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,787795,00.html

According to that article, the approx. value of church owned property is roughly 5 billion... I dont know what the tax rate is in other states but in Indiana they would be capped at probably 3 percent of the value... Maybe even 2 percent because of recent legislation.... That puts roughly 150 million in tax revenue per year... which is roughly the amount in the budget to put funyuns into the vending machines in the pentagon.....

Look how much 150 million could save
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=cut+150+million&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=fce33a84b0764b22&biw=1600&bih=655

AUTaxMan
07-05-2011, 08:55 PM
I'm in the grade that obliterated your weak anti teacher argument and made you look like a moron :)

But your desperation attempt with the grammar police move was cherry :cheer2:

Actually, your post made no sense whatsoever. But if it makes you feel good about yourself, then I am all for it.

redsoxx11
07-05-2011, 08:58 PM
Actually, your post made no sense whatsoever. But if it makes you feel good about yourself, then I am all for it.

It must have made sense, seeing as you are just about the only person here who thinks teachers are not professionals. And you were even given the definition of professional, but still refuse to acknowledge facts.

AUTaxMan
07-05-2011, 09:05 PM
It must have made sense, seeing as you are just about the only person here who thinks teachers are not professionals. And you were even given the definition of professional, but still refuse to acknowledge facts.

You have completely missed the point, and I am not going to restate it to you for the umpteenth time. Either that or you are trolling me, for which I tip my hat to you. Well played.

tutall
07-05-2011, 09:06 PM
Look how much 150 million could save
http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=cut+150+million&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=fce33a84b0764b22&biw=1600&bih=655

wow... a link to a google search... seriously???? There isnt a single link on the first page that tells me what I can buy for 150 million.....

dfr52
07-05-2011, 09:31 PM
Really? I thought the issue was paying more into healthcare and retirement plans and destroy collective bargaining which pits teachers verses taxpayers in a system where someone will be upset in the end. I guess I assumed pay was not ever a question in Wisconsin as it was never really reported that I saw anyways... Can you name me one purpose the teachers union serves besides making teachers pay generally above the median pay even though they receive 13-15 weeks of vacation per year?


median pay state by state... I havent done the research but I would be shocked if teachers make under the state average in any states even though they work 25 percent less time than most workers

What about the other professions that don't work normal schedules? If so many people think teachers have it so great why aren't they in education?

dfr52
07-05-2011, 09:32 PM
You have completely missed the point, and I am not going to restate it to you for the umpteenth time. Either that or you are trolling me, for which I tip my hat to you. Well played.

I apologize if I missed it, but what careers do consider professions?

tutall
07-05-2011, 10:02 PM
What about the other professions that don't work normal schedules? If so many people think teachers have it so great why aren't they in education?

Honestly... I went to school for teaching but it didnt offer the money I wanted to make and I hated the restrictions they put on teachers as far as discipline goes... Im not talking about not having a normal schedule... Im talking about having 1/4th of the year off work...

dfr52
07-05-2011, 11:23 PM
Honestly... I went to school for teaching but it didnt offer the money I wanted to make and I hated the restrictions they put on teachers as far as discipline goes... Im not talking about not having a normal schedule... Im talking about having 1/4th of the year off work...

Some doctors, nurses, and fireman have the same set-up except they work a few days a week rather than the usual 5.

tutall
07-06-2011, 09:28 AM
except many times they are working much longer days than 8 hours. They are also on call most of the time and generally have their own LLC set up so they can charge whatever they want to charge and...