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View Full Version : When will people learn



andrewhoya
08-01-2011, 02:47 PM
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/08/01/20110801tennessee-woman-screams-at-tsa-her-defense.html

Dont want to be scanned? Don't fly. They don't see you naked, anyways.

duane1969
08-01-2011, 02:54 PM
I agree. I think this should apply to all modes of transportation. I think that strip searches and full body scans should apply to anyone who wants to ride a train or subway, drive a car or ride a bus. Who are these people to think that they have a right to not be searched by government employees without just cause? These crazy people act like they have a Constitutional Amendment on their side or something.

andrewhoya
08-01-2011, 03:00 PM
I agree. I think this should apply to all modes of transportation. I think that strip searches and full body scans should apply to anyone who wants to ride a train or subway, drive a car or ride a bus. Who are these people to think that they have a right to not be searched by government employees without just cause? These crazy people act like they have a Constitutional Amendment on their side or something.

We've already seen what happens with busses (London, etc).

pghin08
08-01-2011, 03:12 PM
I agree. I think this should apply to all modes of transportation. I think that strip searches and full body scans should apply to anyone who wants to ride a train or subway, drive a car or ride a bus. Who are these people to think that they have a right to not be searched by government employees without just cause? These crazy people act like they have a Constitutional Amendment on their side or something.

Well now that's just funny.

duane1969
08-01-2011, 03:24 PM
Well now that's just funny.

I was obviously being facetious, but if 20 years ago you had told people that one day they would be strip searched and X-rayed before they could fly on a plane, they would have laughed too...

duwal
08-01-2011, 06:07 PM
I was obviously being facetious, but if 20 years ago you had told people that one day they would be strip searched and X-rayed before they could fly on a plane, they would have laughed too...


they would have laughed at the far-fetched thought that someone would actually plan about having an explosive device on them in order to blow up themselves and the other passengers in a plane too

duane1969
08-02-2011, 08:28 PM
they would have laughed at the far-fetched thought that someone would actually plan about having an explosive device on them in order to blow up themselves and the other passengers in a plane too

Doesn't change the fact that it is a violation of our civil rights to force us to accept an illegal search or else be arrested.

According to the article linked by Andrew the lady wasn't even arrested for refusing to be searched, she was arrested for protesting the search. So apparently TSA not only can violate your 4th Amendment rights, they can arrest you for using your 1st Amendment rights as well.

andrewhoya
08-02-2011, 08:52 PM
Doesn't change the fact that it is a violation of our civil rights to force us to accept an illegal search or else be arrested.

According to the article linked by Andrew the lady wasn't even arrested for refusing to be searched, she was arrested for protesting the search. So apparently TSA not only can violate your 4th Amendment rights, they can arrest you for using your 1st Amendment rights as well.

If you want to complain about being shorted on civil rights (which they aren't doing........), head on over to a country with a dictatorship. I'm sure the complaining would stop pretty quickly.

andrewhoya
08-02-2011, 08:56 PM
If you want to complain about being shorted on civil rights (which they aren't doing........), head on over to a country with a dictatorship. I'm sure the complaining would stop pretty quickly.

BTW... what makes you believe that they are violating our civil rights?

pghin08
08-03-2011, 10:49 AM
BTW... what makes you believe that they are violating our civil rights?

Well, the fourth amendment does protect us from unlawful and unreasonable searches and seizures.

andrewhoya
08-03-2011, 11:04 AM
Well, the fourth amendment does protect us from unlawful and unreasonable searches and seizures.

What is unreasonable about the searches done by TSA?

pghin08
08-03-2011, 11:23 AM
What is unreasonable about the searches done by TSA?

If there are people out there (and there are lots) who feel as if they are being subjected to a search which offends them, then they have a legit grievance under our Constitution, so long as the person isn't exhibiting suspicious behavior.

andrewhoya
08-03-2011, 11:27 AM
If there are people out there (and there are lots) who feel as if they are being subjected to a search which offends them, then they have a legit grievance under our Constitution, so long as the person isn't exhibiting suspicious behavior.

By purchasing a plane ticket, you are agreeing to be searched by TSA.

pghin08
08-03-2011, 11:57 AM
By purchasing a plane ticket, you are agreeing to be searched by TSA.

But to what extent? I'm really just playing devil's advocate here. I don't mind getting patted down for 10 seconds. But if you're talking about detaining (basically) 90 year old women and small children for strip searches, as have occurred, then you could make the claim that the search in which the TSA has done violated the constitution. And what has greater clout? The constitution or the fine print of an airline ticket?

andrewhoya
08-03-2011, 12:01 PM
But to what extent? I'm really just playing devil's advocate here. I don't mind getting patted down for 10 seconds. But if you're talking about detaining (basically) 90 year old women and small children for strip searches, as have occurred, then you could make the claim that the search in which the TSA has done violated the constitution. And what has greater clout? The constitution or the fine print of an airline ticket?

Everyone goes up in arms when a grandmother or a toddler gets searched. Just wait until they dont get searched and were planted with a bomb by a terrorist and walk onto a plane.

pghin08
08-03-2011, 12:14 PM
Everyone goes up in arms when a grandmother or a toddler gets searched. Just wait until they dont get searched and were planted with a bomb by a terrorist and walk onto a plane.

It all depends on who you ask. There are people out there who are not willing to sacrifice their "freedom" for security.

The last comment kind of paves a way into a slightly different debate: the future of terrorism. I don't think what happened on 9/11 is that future. We've seen the subway and bus bombings which al-Qaeda claimed responsibility for. Why not do the same searches on subways and buses like Duane jokingly referred to?

The scope of terror, and where it comes from, is changing rapidly. The US (particularly Mr. Obama) has done a great job in cutting the heart and soul out of al-Qaeda. Though AQ likely isn't the future of terror, somebody else will be. And from a logical perspective, why would they plan a second 9/11-type attack? The US was GROSSLY ill-prepared on 9/11, and to a point, that's changed. TSA have clearly ramped up their protocol (though they were NOT the ones truly at fault that day). So given that the US would be expecting the next terror attack to come in such a manner, why would they do it? If you were driving drunk and had two ways to get home, and you knew one would have a DUI checkpoint, you'd probably take the other route home.

My point, which I've come to in a roundabout way, is that for a lot of people, the trouble with TSA is that they've established a methodology of search that is twice as troublesome as the old, with likely a minimum of security gain.

andrewhoya
08-03-2011, 12:30 PM
It all depends on who you ask. There are people out there who are not willing to sacrifice their "freedom" for security.

The last comment kind of paves a way into a slightly different debate: the future of terrorism. I don't think what happened on 9/11 is that future. We've seen the subway and bus bombings which al-Qaeda claimed responsibility for. Why not do the same searches on subways and buses like Duane jokingly referred to?

The scope of terror, and where it comes from, is changing rapidly. The US (particularly Mr. Obama) has done a great job in cutting the heart and soul out of al-Qaeda. Though AQ likely isn't the future of terror, somebody else will be. And from a logical perspective, why would they plan a second 9/11-type attack? The US was GROSSLY ill-prepared on 9/11, and to a point, that's changed. TSA have clearly ramped up their protocol (though they were NOT the ones truly at fault that day). So given that the US would be expecting the next terror attack to come in such a manner, why would they do it? If you were driving drunk and had two ways to get home, and you knew one would have a DUI checkpoint, you'd probably take the other route home.

My point, which I've come to in a roundabout way, is that for a lot of people, the trouble with TSA is that they've established a methodology of search that is twice as troublesome as the old, with likely a minimum of security gain.

The future of terrorism cannot be seen ATM, but hopefully that will change. There was a guy in my town who was arrested because he was plotting to blow up our rain system (DC Metro), but the police (pretending to be terrorists) busted him. If only it was that easy to find them.

We don't know what they will do next, or even who "they" is.

I'm sure if you ask 99.9% of Americans if they would rather be patted down or have 3 planes crash into a building, they would be patted down hands down.

People need to learn to make more sacrifices in this country. If you want to have the privilege to be able to fly to go on vacation or see family, take the ten seconds and walk through the security. And if you get asked to be patted down, even if you know you don't have anything and weren't plotting a terrorist attack? Be thankful the TSA agents are actually taking the time to investigate people even more.


I guarantee you that the same people who are complaining about the pat downs right now are the ones who are going to be screaming at the TSA for not providing good enough security when the next terrorist attack comes.

pghin08
08-03-2011, 12:42 PM
The future of terrorism cannot be seen ATM, but hopefully that will change. There was a guy in my town who was arrested because he was plotting to blow up our rain system (DC Metro), but the police (pretending to be terrorists) busted him. If only it was that easy to find them.

We don't know what they will do next, or even who "they" is.

I'm sure if you ask 99.9% of Americans if they would rather be patted down or have 3 planes crash into a building, they would be patted down hands down.

People need to learn to make more sacrifices in this country. If you want to have the privilege to be able to fly to go on vacation or see family, take the ten seconds and walk through the security. And if you get asked to be patted down, even if you know you don't have anything and weren't plotting a terrorist attack? Be thankful the TSA agents are actually taking the time to investigate people even more.


I guarantee you that the same people who are complaining about the pat downs right now are the ones who are going to be screaming at the TSA for not providing good enough security when the next terrorist attack comes.


To abuse even further the oft-used Ben Franklin quote: "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

You're making the mistake of thinking that if the TSA were functioning in 2001 the way it is today, that 9/11 never happens. And that's just flat wrong. Several of the terrorists were subjected to advanced screening and searches, only to be allowed to board anyways.

Frankly, if another terrorist attack were to happen in the same manner, and people were blaming the TSA, then they have something seriously wrong with them. NOBODY should blame the TSA for what happened on 9/11. All TSA does is act as the ABSOLUTE last line of security against terrorist acts (and people with guns and crap). The failures on 9/11, and the failure in any future terrorist attack lies with the federal and (perhaps) state governments, not one singular government agency that has little to no counter-terrorist preparation. Did TSA know who Mohammad Atta was on September 11th? No. Did the CIA and FBI know? Absolutely.

andrewhoya
08-03-2011, 12:47 PM
To abuse even further the oft-used Ben Franklin quote: "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

You're making the mistake of thinking that if the TSA were functioning in 2001 the way it is today, that 9/11 never happens. And that's just flat wrong. Several of the terrorists were subjected to advanced screening and searches, only to be allowed to board anyways.

Frankly, if another terrorist attack were to happen in the same manner, and people were blaming the TSA, then they have something seriously wrong with them. NOBODY should blame the TSA for what happened on 9/11. All TSA does is act as the ABSOLUTE last line of security against terrorist acts (and people with guns and crap). The failures on 9/11, and the failure in any future terrorist attack lies with the federal and (perhaps) state governments, not one singular government agency that has little to no counter-terrorist preparation. Did TSA know who Mohammad Atta was on September 11th? No. Did the CIA and FBI know? Absolutely.

We don't know what would have happened if the TSA was like this 10 years ago.

AS for nobody blaming the TSA, many people still do today.

pghin08
08-03-2011, 12:58 PM
We don't know what would have happened if the TSA was like this 10 years ago.

AS for nobody blaming the TSA, many people still do today.

That's my problem. Those people are flat-out wrong to do that. The TSA had absolutely nothing to do with it. The only thing they could have done would be to confiscate the box cutters and knives, but even then the attack could have gone on (with the force of 4-5 20-some year olds, airline staff could have been easily overpowered, with the terrorists taking any knives or sharp objects on board). The failure, like I've said, came because of the federal government being asleep at the wheel in a big way.

andrewhoya
08-03-2011, 01:09 PM
That's my problem. Those people are flat-out wrong to do that. The TSA had absolutely nothing to do with it. The only thing they could have done would be to confiscate the box cutters and knives, but even then the attack could have gone on (with the force of 4-5 20-some year olds, airline staff could have been easily overpowered, with the terrorists taking any knives or sharp objects on board). The failure, like I've said, came because of the federal government being asleep at the wheel in a big way.

If only there were more Todd Beamers on the flights.

duane1969
08-03-2011, 01:28 PM
If you want to complain about being shorted on civil rights (which they aren't doing........), head on over to a country with a dictatorship. I'm sure the complaining would stop pretty quickly.

Because I have it better than someone else does not make it OK to take away my 4th Amendment rights.

People in other countries are not protected by the U.S. Constitution. I am. Whether or not I have it better than they do is irrelevant.


By purchasing a plane ticket, you are agreeing to be searched by TSA.

Incorrect. My wife is currently on a trip to Portland and I made her travel plans for her including scheduling her flight both ways. At no point in time was it stated or implied that strip searches, full body scans or pat-downs were part of the deal. It also does not state this on her itenerary that was provided by the airline company.


Everyone goes up in arms when a grandmother or a toddler gets searched. Just wait until they dont get searched and were planted with a bomb by a terrorist and walk onto a plane.

Perhaps, but it won't change the Constitution.

pghin08
08-03-2011, 01:44 PM
If only there were more Todd Beamers on the flights.

Agreed. If you're interested in 9/11, there was a great book recently released called The Eleventh Day. It's a really solid synopsis and critique of what happened on that day.

Star_Cards
08-04-2011, 11:53 AM
it seems a bit odd that she got so upset about not wanting to be scanned or patted down. I guess we can't say what she had a problem with exactly. My experiences with TSA ( I just traveled yesterday has always been smooth.

andrewhoya
08-04-2011, 11:56 AM
it seems a bit odd that she got so upset about not wanting to be scanned or patted down. I guess we can't say what she had a problem with exactly. My experiences with TSA ( I just traveled yesterday has always been smooth.

It is smooth for 99% of Americans. It's not for the 1% of the nutjobs in this country who just think it should be perfectly okay to walk onboard an aircraft.

Star_Cards
08-04-2011, 12:25 PM
I get that people have rights against being searched, but for most people that have nothing to hide searches are a breeze and done respectfully. It's not like people don't know you will be searched when you try to get onto a flight.

andrewhoya
08-04-2011, 12:52 PM
I get that people have rights against being searched, but for most people that have nothing to hide searches are a breeze and done respectfully. It's not like people don't know you will be searched when you try to get onto a flight.

Most people are even fine with being patted down. A woman in front of me had a hip implant and was perfectly fine with being searched. The security lady was professional and talked her through everything.

pghin08
08-04-2011, 01:15 PM
Most TSA employees, in my experience, do their jobs well.

andrewhoya
08-04-2011, 01:25 PM
Agreed. If you're interested in 9/11, there was a great book recently released called The Eleventh Day. It's a really solid synopsis and critique of what happened on that day.

I'll take a look at it, thanks.