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andrewhoya
08-19-2011, 11:38 AM
I know they are all Republican (except Obama), but look past that fact and vote for who you think has the best views/would be the best President.

Interested to see who comes out on top.

AUTaxMan
08-19-2011, 11:39 AM
link missing

andrewhoya
08-19-2011, 11:41 AM
link missing

Had to create the poll after the thread was made.

AUTaxMan
08-19-2011, 11:45 AM
Chris Christie. Please run. :pray:

mrveggieman
08-19-2011, 12:13 PM
Obviously I chose obama but ron paul would have been my second choice. The rest of them are garbage.

andrewhoya
08-19-2011, 12:14 PM
The rest of them are garbage.

If only everyone else realized this.

AUTaxMan
08-19-2011, 12:16 PM
I keep asking why they are garbage and keep hearing crickets. Once again, why?

andrewhoya
08-19-2011, 12:17 PM
I keep asking why they are garbage and keep hearing crickets. Once again, why?

Their policies are garbage. Not the actual people (exception Bachmann).

AUTaxMan
08-19-2011, 12:19 PM
Their policies are garbage. Not the actual people (exception Bachmann).

Which policies? What makes the policies garbage? What makes Bachmann garbage personally?

andrewhoya
08-19-2011, 12:28 PM
Which policies? What makes the policies garbage? What makes Bachmann garbage personally?

Don't have time to answer this right now- I'll get you a response in a few days unless someone replies first.

andrewhoya
08-19-2011, 01:15 PM
Which policies? What makes the policies garbage? What makes Bachmann garbage personally?

I wont go as in depth as I wanted to, but odds are I'd forget to reply in a few days.

I'm using Bachmann's views as an example.

First off, we all say what happened to Minnesota.

She opposed the College Cost Reduction and Access Act that aimed to help college kids and others looking to go back to school. She opposed raising grant and increasing the loan limit, which would have allowed more students to go to college. The bill was passed, however.


She was/is one of the leaders who is trying to drill for oil in the Arctic. We all saw what happened in the Gulf. Also, getting most of the oil and gas from other countries increases trade and foreign relations which is only a good thing.

She does not realize that global warming is actually happening. White the carbon dioxide is natural and is not necessarily contributing, the temperatures are rising. Even if it is mostly natural, there are things we can do.

She didn't want to pass the bill that kept Ford, Chrysler, and GM in business. If they left, American cars would be limited.

I'm not even going to get into the things she said about Anti-Americanism.

She spent the time criticizing the US Census questions. You don't have to answer them.... How about spending your time on something useful?


While I am behind more Republicans then Democrats, I do have many issues with many of the main views held by MOST GOPs, including:

Environmental Issues
Most Republicans rejected the Department of Education
Gay marriage is one of the biggest ones
Religion (BTW-I'm Methodist)

I have many issues with Democrats as well, but wont get into those.

mrveggieman
08-19-2011, 01:36 PM
Their policies are garbage. Not the actual people (exception Bachmann).


Cain is a piece of trash.

andrewhoya
08-19-2011, 01:45 PM
Cain is a piece of trash.

I'm not totally familiar with him. Can't be worse than Bachmann, though :)

marekschwarz33
08-19-2011, 01:50 PM
I keep asking why they are garbage and keep hearing crickets. Once again, why?

One of my main issues with the GOP (and honestly the Democrats too) is foreign policy. We cannot afford to continue these useless overseas expenditures. A foreign policy of peace is the best policy. All of foreign "allies" lead to entanglements and ultimately war. How about a quote from George Washington on this issue?


It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliance with any portion of the foreign world.]

Our military presence throughout the world is becoming ridiculous.

How can the GOP claim to support small government while fighting these seemingly endless wars? The majority of GOP candidates are also opposed to civil liberties. A prime example of this is the War on Drugs. This "war" is unsustainable and really has no positive effects.

The time has come for a different perspective in Washington. A Libertarian mind would be a pleasant change in Washington. This two party system is taking over our nation, the entire political system needs a real shake-up.
Here's another great quote from Washington:


However [political parties] may now and then answer popular ends, they are likely in the course of time and things, to become potent engines, by which cunning, ambitious, and unprincipled men will be enabled to subvert the power of the people and to usurp for themselves the reins of government, destroying afterwards the very engines which have lifted them to unjust dominion.


But sadly the media will continue to ignore Ron Paul and we will be stuck with a neo-con or Obama in office.

andrewhoya
08-19-2011, 01:52 PM
One of my main issues with the GOP (and honestly the Democrats too) is foreign policy. We cannot afford to continue these useless overseas expenditures. A foreign policy of peace is the best policy. All of foreign "allies" lead to entanglements and ultimately war. How about a quote from George Washington on this issue?



Our military presence throughout the world is becoming ridiculous.

How can the GOP claim to support small government while fighting these seemingly endless wars? The majority of GOP candidates are also opposed to civil liberties. A prime example of this is the War on Drugs. This "war" is unsustainable and really has no positive effects.

The time has come for a different perspective in Washington. A Libertarian mind would be a pleasant change in Washington. This two party system is taking over our nation, the entire political system needs a real shake-up.
Here's another great quote from Washington:


But sadly the media will continue to ignore Ron Paul and we will be stuck with a neo-con or Obama in office.

Well said.

jaybird_1981
08-19-2011, 01:59 PM
Chris Christie. Please run. :pray:


I like Christie too, and I think it is terrible that all I hear when I bring him up is the American people won't elect an overweight person. It sickens me that seems to be a perfectly exceptable form of discrimination these days.

sanfran22
08-19-2011, 02:21 PM
I wont go as in depth as I wanted to, but odds are I'd forget to reply in a few days.

I'm using Bachmann's views as an example.

First off, we all say what happened to Minnesota.

She opposed the College Cost Reduction and Access Act that aimed to help college kids and others looking to go back to school. She opposed raising grant and increasing the loan limit, which would have allowed more students to go to college. The bill was passed, however.
I don't know alot about this bill but from what you said it was going to be on the taxpayers to fund this? I.E. grants?


She was/is one of the leaders who is trying to drill for oil in the Arctic. We all saw what happened in the Gulf. Also, getting most of the oil and gas from other countries increases trade and foreign relations which is only a good thing.
I'd drill in a heartbeat. Can I ask you why you think we couldn't fix the issue in the gulf? Also, foreign countries like Canada and Mexico?

She does not realize that global warming is actually happening. White the carbon dioxide is natural and is not necessarily contributing, the temperatures are rising. Even if it is mostly natural, there are things we can do.
Lol, highly debateable and I would call it junk science. If you believe we had an Ice Age why did it melt back then? We couldn't have contributed to that could we? The earths temp constantly fluctuates. I believe were are cooler now than 50 or so years ago?

She didn't want to pass the bill that kept Ford, Chrysler, and GM in business. If they left, American cars would be limited.
The bailout? No thanks. Restructure like normal non gov't baby companies do. I believe ford did that?

I'm not even going to get into the things she said about Anti-Americanism.

She spent the time criticizing the US Census questions. You don't have to answer them.... How about spending your time on something useful?


While I am behind more Republicans then Democrats, I do have many issues with many of the main views held by MOST GOPs, including:

Environmental Issues
Most Republicans rejected the Department of Education
Gay marriage is one of the biggest ones
Religion (BTW-I'm Methodist)

I have many issues with Democrats as well, but wont get into those.
:winking0071:

andrewhoya
08-19-2011, 02:24 PM
I don't know alot about this bill but from what you said it was going to be on the taxpayers to fund this? I.E. grants?

It passed, so it doesn't even matter.


I'd drill in a heartbeat. Can I ask you why you think we couldn't fix the issue in the gulf? Also, foreign countries like Canada and Mexico?
Obama and the rest of the government departments sat on their butts without doing anything until months after.


Lol, highly debateable and I would call it junk science. If you believe we had an Ice Age why did it melt back then? We couldn't have contributed to that could we? The earths temp constantly fluctuates. I believe were are cooler now than 50 or so years ago?
Global warming is all an opinion. There is no answer. BTW- there were people during the Ice Age, so they could have contributed.

sanfran22
08-19-2011, 02:28 PM
It passed, so it doesn't even matter.


Obama and the rest of the government departments sat on their butts without doing anything until months after.


Global warming is all an opinion. There is no answer. BTW- there were people during the Ice Age, so they could have contributed.
Lol, so another big taxpayer funded liability doesn't matter? Maybe thats why she was against it. I'm just saying....

Obama and co may have been slow to react but would the problem been as bad if they didn't have to go so far and so deep off the cost. Short answer is no. They would have been able to manually cap that well by all account. So the big evil drilling oil companies were forced out too far the drill.

So you believe in man made global warming when there was a tiny percent of people on the planet and 0 technology to supposedly cause it. Do you listen to al gore, lol?

andrewhoya
08-19-2011, 02:33 PM
Lol, so another big taxpayer funded liability doesn't matter? Maybe thats why she was against it. I'm just saying....

Obama and co may have been slow to react but would the problem been as bad if they didn't have to go so far and so deep off the cost. Short answer is no. They would have been able to manually cap that well by all account. So the big evil drilling oil companies were forced out too far the drill.

So you believe in man made global warming when there was a tiny percent of people on the planet and 0 technology to supposedly cause it. Do you listen to al gore, lol?

Are you saying I cannot have my opinion without looking like an idiot?

sanfran22
08-19-2011, 02:35 PM
Are you saying I cannot have my opinion without looking like an idiot?
No, you can believe what you want. But what do you base that on? It sounds like Al Gore speech. It just doesn't make sense if you look at it. It's all a big ploy to "go green" and make a few select people alot of cash....

andrewhoya
08-19-2011, 02:37 PM
No, you can believe what you want. But what do you base that on? It sounds like Al Gore speech. It just doesn't make sense if you look at it. It's all a big ploy to "go green" and make a few select people alot of cash....

Tell me the problems with doing this. What's wrong about trying to save the environment, whether it is needed or not?

sanfran22
08-19-2011, 02:41 PM
Tell me the problems with doing this. What's wrong about trying to save the environment, whether it is needed or not?
Personally conserving and keeping things beautiful are noble. But that is not what this is....This is changing and controlling and pure profit motivation. For example, why are we mandating cars need to get 55 mpg? Lets guess what those cars will cost and how much it will drive up gas and other items....Also, Have you ever used the "green" dishwasher soap? I have and it didn't work. It's all a big scam.

andrewhoya
08-19-2011, 02:42 PM
Personally conserving and keeping things beautiful are noble. But that is not what this is....This is changing and controlling and pure profit motivation. For example, why are we mandating cars need to get 55 mpg? Lets guess what those cars will cost and how much it will drive up gas and other items....

Obviously they are reasonably priced if people are buying them. Anyways, it all evens out. The less gas you buy=the more money you save.

andrewhoya
08-19-2011, 02:43 PM
Also, Have you ever used the "green" dishwasher soap? I have and it didn't work.

How exactly did it "not work"? We have a green washing machine that works perfectly.

jaybird_1981
08-19-2011, 02:44 PM
Tell me the problems with doing this. What's wrong about trying to save the environment, whether it is needed or not?


I will tell you a great reason. My wife is a physicist so she has worked at Oak Ridge the past few summers and when I visited a couple years ago I talked to a couple of the scientists looking into climate change. Since a lot of their funding is federal guess what the majority of their federal funds go towards? That money could be better spent.

I was told that right now there is no way to determine if global warming is even occuring and if it is what role humans play in it. So if you ask me a lot of this research is a waste and there are some people getting rich off of it.

The left complains about war profiteering while they laugh all the way to the bank on this "going green" campaign.

sanfran22
08-19-2011, 02:45 PM
Obviously they are reasonably priced if people are buying them. Anyways, it all evens out. The less gas you buy=the more money you save.
They're not out yet. Unless you are talking smart cars and Prius' Have you seen the price tags for them? Wait until gas hits 5.00 a gallon or more when less is being sold. I'm guessing the savings won't make a big difference.

andrewhoya
08-19-2011, 02:46 PM
I will tell you a great reason. My wife is a physicist so she has worked at Oak Ridge the past few summers and when I visited a couple years ago I talked to a couple of the scientists looking into climate change. Since a lot of their funding is federal guess what they are funding the most right now?

I was told that right now there is no way to determine if global warming is even occuring and if it is what role humans play in it. So if you ask me a lot of this research is a waste and there are some people getting rich off of it.

The left complains about war profiteering while they laugh all the way to the bank on this "going green" campaign.

That didn't really answer the question you quoted.

What is wrong with trying to save the environment?

If there is no way to determine if it is happening, isn't that money going towards seeing if it IS happening?

marekschwarz33
08-19-2011, 02:49 PM
That didn't really answer the question you quoted.

What is wrong with trying to save the environment?

If there is no way to determine if it is happening, isn't that money going towards seeing if it IS happening?

There's nothing wrong with it it. But it should not be controlled or regulated by the government. Free market environmentalism will lead to better results. For the record, I do not completely buy into man-made global warming.

jaybird_1981
08-19-2011, 02:50 PM
Obviously they are reasonably priced if people are buying them. Anyways, it all evens out. The less gas you buy=the more money you save.


People buy them because they get kickbacks from the government. It is all a scam.

andrewhoya
08-19-2011, 02:51 PM
They're not out yet. Unless you are talking smart cars and Prius' Have you seen the price tags for them? Wait until gas hits 5.00 a gallon or more when less is being sold. I'm guessing the savings won't make a big difference.

Brand new Nissan Leaf for $33,000. It gets 92 MPG highway.
Brand new Nissan Altima for $17,000 . It gets 32 MPG highway.

We'll say gas is $3.50 right now. After 21,000 miles you've broke even.

sanfran22
08-19-2011, 02:51 PM
That didn't really answer the question you quoted.

What is wrong with trying to save the environment?

If there is no way to determine if it is happening, isn't that money going towards seeing if it IS happening?
There's nothing wrong with trying to conserve on your own. Gov't mandating and spending obscene amounts of money on "cow farts" is where I have a problem....

andrewhoya
08-19-2011, 02:51 PM
People buy them because they get kickbacks from the government. It is all a scam.

edit- Many people buy them to save gas.

jaybird_1981
08-19-2011, 02:51 PM
That didn't really answer the question you quoted.

What is wrong with trying to save the environment?

If there is no way to determine if it is happening, isn't that money going towards seeing if it IS happening?


Nothing and as an individual I do what I can for the environment.

jaybird_1981
08-19-2011, 02:53 PM
edit- never mind


Most of those cars you can get government rebates at the end of the year.

Do you know what the most profitable part of Ford is? It is the F-150 not the Focus. If they would dump all of that garbage and just make the F-150 they could become profitable again.

andrewhoya
08-19-2011, 02:54 PM
But it should not be controlled or regulated by the government

Gov't mandating and spending obscene amounts of money on "cow farts" is where I have a problem.

Not just the EPA. Welcome to half of the governments agencies.

sanfran22
08-19-2011, 02:54 PM
Lol, that car goes 62-132 miles per charge. How practical is that? I think the top speed is 90 mph? If you want to drive a lawnmower be my guest.... <br />
Also, what will happen to electric costs when...

sanfran22
08-19-2011, 02:55 PM
Not just the EPA. Welcome to half of the governments agencies.
Agreed and I'd start cutting starting with the EPA, Dept of Ed, IRS ect ect.

jaybird_1981
08-19-2011, 02:56 PM
I would like to see one of these in the snow too lol.

andrewhoya
08-19-2011, 02:58 PM
Most of those cars you can get government rebates at the end of the year.

Do you know what the most profitable part of Ford is? It is the F-150 not the Focus. If they would dump all of that garbage and just make the F-150 they could become profitable again.

Ford has been making the F-Series for 62 years. They sell 556,451 F-Series trucks a year.

Since 1998, the Ford Focus has been sold on average 846,153 times a year.

sanfran22
08-19-2011, 03:00 PM
I would like to see one of these in the snow too lol.
Or if someone hits it...yikes. Kinda like those smart cars. I'd hate to get hit in one of those.....

andrewhoya
08-19-2011, 03:00 PM
The new Nissan Leaf Nismo RC has a top speed of 92. When will you even be going that fast?

andrewhoya
08-19-2011, 03:01 PM
Or if someone hits it...yikes. Kinda like those smart cars. I'd hate to get hit in one of those.....

http://autos.aol.com/cars-Smart-Fortwo-2009/safety-ratings/

sanfran22
08-19-2011, 03:02 PM
Ford has been making the F-Series for 62 years. They sell 556,451 F-Series trucks a year.

Since 1998, the Ford Focus has been sold on average 846,153 times a year.
I'd bet they make more $$$ on the truck. Just a guess.
Where did you get your stats?
http://www.autotropolis.com/krome-on-cars/ford-f-150-best-selling-america-again.html

jaybird_1981
08-19-2011, 03:03 PM
Ford has been making the F-Series for 62 years. They sell 556,451 F-Series trucks a year.

Since 1998, the Ford Focus has been sold on average 846,153 times a year.


The F-150 has been the leading seller for decades.

sanfran22
08-19-2011, 03:03 PM
http://autos.aol.com/cars-Smart-Fortwo-2009/safety-ratings/
Lol, never even gonna stand beside one of those....:sign0020::smash:

sanfran22
08-19-2011, 03:04 PM
The new Nissan Leaf Nismo RC has a top speed of 92. When will you even be going that fast?
When I'm outrunning the law....:humble::smokin:

andrewhoya
08-19-2011, 03:04 PM
I'd bet they make more $$$ on the truck. Just a guess.
Where did you get your stats?
http://www.autotropolis.com/krome-on-cars/ford-f-150-best-selling-america-again.html


The F-150 has been the leading seller for decades.

Yes, the F-150 is the most selling car. But the Focus is up there as well. Overall, it has sold more per year.

andrewhoya
08-19-2011, 03:05 PM
Lol, never evan gonna stand beside on of those....:sign0020::smash:
The ratings don't lie... It's a safe car.

When I'm outrunning the law....:humble::smokin:

In all honesty, what is wrong with a top speed of 90 when you're going to be going 75 max?

jaybird_1981
08-19-2011, 03:07 PM
The ratings don't lie... It's a safe car.


In all honesty, what is wrong with a top speed of 90 when you're going to be going 75 max?


I go over 75 all the time.

sanfran22
08-19-2011, 03:07 PM
The ratings don't lie... It's a safe car.


In all honesty, what is wrong with a top speed of 90 when you're going to be going 75 max?
It's acceptable...that's scary. I would suggest driving the leaf and you tell me. I own nissans and wouldn't touch it.....

andrewhoya
08-19-2011, 03:08 PM
I go over 75 all the time.
How often do you hit 90?

habsheaven
08-19-2011, 03:08 PM
I get a kick out of all the nay-sayers over global warming, lol.

Picture a domed stadium filled with 10,000 fans on a Friday night. Now add another 50,000 fans on Saturday morning. Sunday morning let in the Monster trucks. Hmmmm ..... I wonder if the temperature is going to go up in the arena over the weekend?

jaybird_1981
08-19-2011, 03:10 PM
How often do you hit 90?


I have hit 90 quite a bit when the situation calls for it.

andrewhoya
08-19-2011, 03:13 PM
I have hit 90 quite a bit when the situation calls for it.

Glad to know we have so many people who follow the law in this country.

jaybird_1981
08-19-2011, 03:14 PM
Glad to know we have so many people who follow the law in this country.


Glad to know you assume that I have never been to another country.

andrewhoya
08-19-2011, 03:15 PM
Glad to know you assume that I have never been to another country.

I know I'd get points for my response so I'll keep it to myself.

habsheaven
08-19-2011, 03:17 PM
Glad to know you assume that I have never been to another country.

Were you not talking about the car you currently drive? When did you have THAT car in a foreign country doing 90? And what country was it with the legal 90 speed limit? lol

jaybird_1981
08-19-2011, 03:19 PM
I know I'd get points for my response so I'll keep it to myself.


lol you can say what you want if you keep it inbounds. I know I do.

I have driven in Germany and I have gone 90 MPH in the deserts of Kuwait.

You seem to be very opinionated on everything and don't really respect others opinions so let me give you a little advice. The world is a lot bigger than a google window.

sanfran22
08-19-2011, 03:20 PM
Were you not talking about the car you currently drive? When did you have THAT car in a foreign country doing 90? And what country was it with the legal 90 speed limit? lol
I don't think he ever said that. Maybe he's been to Germany? Just a guess....

jaybird_1981
08-19-2011, 03:20 PM
Were you not talking about the car you currently drive? When did you have THAT car in a foreign country doing 90? And what country was it with the legal 90 speed limit? lol


I never stated when or where I have driven 90. But yes I am sure I have also done 90 on the interstate before. And?

habsheaven
08-19-2011, 03:22 PM
I don't think he ever said that. Maybe he's been to Germany? Just a guess....

He said he does 75 "all the time". Is 75 legal in the States? Or is "all the time" an exaggeration?

jaybird_1981
08-19-2011, 03:24 PM
He said he does 75 "all the time". Is 75 legal in the States? Or is "all the time" an exaggeration?

The speed limit on the interstate is 70 and when I am on the interstate I ALWAYS do between 75-80. Most Americans do :winking0071:.

jaybird_1981
08-19-2011, 03:25 PM
Back on topic I think Allan West should be added to this poll.

andrewhoya
08-19-2011, 03:26 PM
You seem to be very opinionated on everything and don't really respect others opinions

:sign0020: you must not see all of my posts.

sanfran22
08-19-2011, 03:28 PM
Back on topic I think Allan West should be added to this poll.
I'm with you here. I like what I hear from him as well. I think this is only people that have declared to this point though......

jaybird_1981
08-19-2011, 03:31 PM
I'm with you here. I like what I hear from him as well. I think this is only people that have declared to this point though......


Yeah that is why I voted other I really am not a fan of any of the Republicans that have thrown their name in yet.

Hairylemon
08-20-2011, 02:28 AM
Personally conserving and keeping things beautiful are noble. But that is not what this is....This is changing and controlling and pure profit motivation. For example, why are we mandating cars need to get 55 mpg? Lets guess what those cars will cost and how much it will drive up gas and other items....Also, Have you ever used the "green" dishwasher soap? I have and it didn't work. It's all a big scam.

The rest of the world is happy to have cars that do 40-55 mpg, why are Americans so against it? A car that does that mileage is not expensive, but you might have trouble putting a gun rack on one.

AUTaxMan
08-20-2011, 11:24 AM
The rest of the world is happy to have cars that do 40-55 mpg, why are Americans so against it? A car that does that mileage is not expensive, but you might have trouble putting a gun rack on one.

The rest of the world does not travel in cars as often as we do or for as long distances on a regular basis. We need cars that are large and comfortable.

As for global warming, suppose that the globe is warming and that we are substantially contributing to it (neither of which have been proven). Even so, we have absolutely no idea that the billions we have spent on green measures is going to reverse global warming or that it even could. The US could go 100% green, and China and India would still be pumping out zillions of mcfs of CO2. As someone said before, it is junk science and a total waste of resources in this time of financial need when (a) we aren't certain global warming exists, (b) if it does, we aren't certain that we are a substantially contributing factor to global warming, and (c) we aren't certain that the measures we are taking have any effect on climate change. I suggest we spend our money on thing that we KNOW will be beneficial to society instead of things we hope or think will.

Hairylemon
08-21-2011, 06:13 AM
The rest of the world does not travel in cars as often as we do or for as long distances on a regular basis. We need cars that are large and comfortable.

As for global warming, suppose that the globe is warming and that we are substantially contributing to it (neither of which have been proven). Even so, we have absolutely no idea that the billions we have spent on green measures is going to reverse global warming or that it even could. The US could go 100% green, and China and India would still be pumping out zillions of mcfs of CO2. As someone said before, it is junk science and a total waste of resources in this time of financial need when (a) we aren't certain global warming exists, (b) if it does, we aren't certain that we are a substantially contributing factor to global warming, and (c) we aren't certain that the measures we are taking have any effect on climate change. I suggest we spend our money on thing that we KNOW will be beneficial to society instead of things we hope or think will.

Like another war maybe.

INTIMADATOR2007
08-21-2011, 11:47 AM
Like another war maybe.
You guys wiith this war crap seem to forget that Hillary Clinton the current Sec. of state and many,many more democrats voted to go to war . Whether the info was good or bad the democrats knew what the info was and voted to go to war in iraq and afganistan , this war crap is a very used up talking pioint that no one cares to hear about anymore it dosen't work . Also atleast G. Bush did going to war the right way with congress approval unlike your guy who does stuff at the call of the UN and not congress . Were are the votes from congress to bomb Libiya ?

tutall
08-21-2011, 11:48 AM
Yes, the F-150 is the most selling car. But the Focus is up there as well. Overall, it has sold more per year.

There is a huge difference in profit margin between a 40K truck and a 18K car... This is a case of the numbers not telling the story... They can sell half as many trucks and make the same amount of money

tutall
08-21-2011, 11:50 AM
Brand new Nissan Leaf for $33,000. It gets 92 MPG highway.
Brand new Nissan Altima for $17,000 . It gets 32 MPG highway.

We'll say gas is $3.50 right now. After 21,000 miles you've broke even.

There is not a large percentage of the population that could go out rightnow and get approved for a 35K auto loan... There are even less that could afford one..... Plus factor in taxes and the difference in interest cost over 5 years and electricity costs and I bet it takes a lot longer than 21000 miles to "break even"

andrewhoya
08-21-2011, 11:57 AM
There is not a large percentage of the population that could go out rightnow and get approved for a 35K auto loan... There are even less that could afford one..... Plus factor in taxes and the difference in interest cost over 5 years and electricity costs and I bet it takes a lot longer than 21000 miles to "break even"

Yes... And my numbers were towards the spending on gas. After traveling 21000 miles, if it was a regular car you would have broke even.

Also, there are electricity stations all over the US, so you don't always have to pay for the electricity.

tutall
08-21-2011, 12:57 PM
Yes... And my numbers were towards the spending on gas. After traveling 21000 miles, if it was a regular car you would have broke even.

Also, there are electricity stations all over the US, so you don't always have to pay for the electricity.

I live in NE Indiana... The only place around here that has this "electricity station" is cracker barrell.... I know what your numbers were but I am simply saying you have a lot more cost in a 33K car than the 33K....

jaybird_1981
08-21-2011, 01:11 PM
Yes... And my numbers were towards the spending on gas. After traveling 21000 miles, if it was a regular car you would have broke even.

Also, there are electricity stations all over the US, so you don't always have to pay for the electricity.

I actually have never seen an electricity station where I live.

andrewhoya
08-21-2011, 01:35 PM
I live in NE Indiana... The only place around here that has this "electricity station" is cracker barrell.... I know what your numbers were but I am simply saying you have a lot more cost in a 33K car than the 33K....Is thata rural area?


I actually have never seen an electricity station where I live.

Where do you live?


We have them all over the place around here.
Maybe its because I live in a huge county right outside of DC. But we hav
e them pretty much next to every parking meter.

tutall
08-21-2011, 01:39 PM
Is thata rural area?



Where do you live?


We have them all over the place around here.
Maybe its because I live in a huge county right outside of DC. But we hav
e them pretty much next to every parking meter.

it is a rural area... that is my point though.. You can legislate where you livebecause you travel what... a couple miles a day? I drive 45 miles a day each way to work... I would have to get to work, plug my car in, and hope I make it home... Not even mentioning when there is 2 feet of snow on the ground and the plows domy road about last so it can be days without getting a plow through... Which is the reason I drive a truck that gets about 17 miles per gallon

Hilfiger1975
08-21-2011, 01:43 PM
I actually have never seen an electricity station where I live.
+1 (Ohio)

jaybird_1981
08-21-2011, 01:51 PM
Tennessee. I doubt there are as many of these stations in the south and midwest as there are in the eastern states.

Hilfiger1975
08-21-2011, 01:55 PM
Tennessee. I doubt there are as many of these stations in the south and midwest as there are in the eastern states.
*gasp* I was born in Cookeville, Tennessee!

jaybird_1981
08-21-2011, 02:00 PM
*gasp* I was born in Cookeville, Tennessee!


Cool I live in Clarksville now but I was born in east Tennessee. I don't think they have even heard of electric cars up in the hills where I grew up :).

Hilfiger1975
08-21-2011, 02:04 PM
Cool I live in Clarksville now but I was born in east Tennessee. I don't think they have even heard of electric cars up in the hills where I grew up :).
Or plumbing... :sign0020:

andrewhoya
08-21-2011, 02:11 PM
it is a rural area... that is my point though.. You can legislate where you livebecause you travel what... a couple miles a day? I drive 45 miles a day each way to work... I would have to get to work, plug my car in, and hope I make it home... Not even mentioning when there is 2 feet of snow on the ground and the plows domy road about last so it can be days without getting a plow through... Which is the reason I drive a truck that gets about 17 miles per gallon
Remember that it is still a growing trend, and the outlets will expand.

tutall
08-21-2011, 02:58 PM
Have you ever been to the midwest though? You can sometimes go 30-40 miles in between towns... Plus last I saw it takes something like 8-10 hours for a full charge... I already work enough, no...

sanfran22
08-21-2011, 03:16 PM
That's only gonna happen when the cars get more than 100 miles on a charge. No one will buy them if they don't.

andrewhoya
08-21-2011, 03:41 PM
8 hours for a full charge is perfect. Go to work in the morning, charge it for the 8 hours while you're at work. Get home, charge it for 8 hours while you sleep. <br />
<br />
Plus, there is a gas tank for...

jaybird_1981
08-21-2011, 03:48 PM
It is unlikely there will be a charging station close enough to your workplace unless you work in a pretty big city.

andrewhoya
08-21-2011, 03:49 PM
It is unlikely there will be a charging station close enough to your workplace unless you work in a pretty big city.

They have them all over the place around here, but as you said, some places have more than others.

sanfran22
08-21-2011, 04:12 PM
They've been around 10-15 years I believe. Still a long way from being viable. I can't imagine driving one to Fla. I don't believe the leaf has a gas tank fyi. I thought it was all electric. You can...

sanfran22
08-21-2011, 04:12 PM
They've been around 10-15 years I believe. Still a long way from being viable. I can't imagine driving one to Fla. I don't believe the leaf has a gas tank fyi. I thought it was all electric. You can...

sanfran22
08-21-2011, 04:13 PM
triple post....awesome.

andrewhoya
08-21-2011, 04:27 PM
They've been around 10-15 years I believe. Still a long way from being viable. I can't imagine driving one to Fla. I don't believe the leaf has a gas tank fyi. I thought it was all electric. You can have your golf cart, for now, I'll keep my rogue.

10~15 years is still pretty new, imo. The leaf does not have a backup tank, bt many of the electric cars do.

I wouldnt drive it to Florida, either. Heck, I wouldnt drive anything to florida.

sanfran22
08-21-2011, 04:40 PM
10~15 years is still pretty new, imo. The leaf does not have a backup tank, bt many of the electric cars do.

I wouldnt drive it to Florida, either. Heck, I wouldnt drive anything to florida.
But I do, and I sure don't want some beaurocrat mandating what I have to drive by regulations.

jaybird_1981
08-21-2011, 04:51 PM
But I do, and I sure don't want some beaurocrat mandating what I have to drive by regulations.


I always love to drive when we take a vacation if possible, it is so much more fun compared to flying.

andrewhoya
08-21-2011, 06:02 PM
But I do, and I sure don't want some beaurocrat mandating what I have to drive by regulations.
How is anyone forcing you what to drive?

I always love to drive when we take a vacation if possible, it is so much more fun compared to flying.

You're opinion, but I hate cars.

tutall
08-21-2011, 06:12 PM
How is anyone forcing you what to drive?

If they mandate what mileage a car drives it is going tobe tough to drive a full size truck that gets 12-14 miles per gallon in the future... By limiting what kind of mileage I will have to get theyare mandating what car I can drive



You're opinion, but I hate cars.

Can you even drive yet? You cant take an airplane or a helicopter everywhere......

andrewhoya
08-21-2011, 06:22 PM
If they mandate what mileage a car drives it is going tobe tough to drive a full size truck that gets 12-14 miles per gallon in the future... By limiting what kind of mileage I will have to get theyare mandating what car I can drive




Can you even drive yet? You cant take an airplane or a helicopter everywhere......

Were they planning on mandating a milage standard? I hadnt heard of that.

Yes I can drive.

I should have been more specific. I hate long car rides. Although, youd be surprised how close to your destination you can get with a plane. We have 13 airports within an hours drive.

Rockman
08-21-2011, 06:25 PM
Why are we talking about cars again? 9 Pages of this thread have been about cars and gas mileage.

andrewhoya
08-21-2011, 06:27 PM
Why are we talking about cars again? 9 Pages of this thread have been about cars and gas mileage.

9 pages? We're on page 3.

I think it started off with questions about the epa funding, and we branched off. Technically still on topic, though.

tutall
08-21-2011, 06:30 PM
Were they planning on mandating a milage standard? I hadnt heard of that.

Yes I can drive.

I should have been more specific. I hate long car rides. Although, youd be surprised how close to your destination you can get with a plane. We have 13 airports within an hours drive.

and again... convenient for you but I drive an hour and 15 minutes for the closest airport and that airport has very few direct flights to anywhere anyone would want to go.... unless you vacation to Atlanta or St Louis.... From what I have heard they were planning a mileage standard for something like 2015 that the average across the line of vehiclesmade had to be 50 MPG or something like that... You can still produce things like trucks but have to even them out with something that gets 70+ MPH which Americans have proven they do not want.

andrewhoya
08-21-2011, 06:31 PM
9 pages? We're on page 3.

I think it started off with questions about the epa funding, and we branched off. Technically still on topic, though.

nevermind, I forgot that I changed my settings to 40 posts per page.

andrewhoya
08-21-2011, 06:33 PM
and again... convenient for you but I drive an hour and 15 minutes for the closest airport and that airport has very few direct flights to anywhere anyone would want to go.... unless you vacation to Atlanta or St Louis.... From what I have heard they were planning a mileage standard for something like 2015 that the average across the line of vehiclesmade had to be 50 MPG or something like that... You can still produce things like trucks but have to even them out with something that gets 70+ MPH which Americans have proven they do not want.

Not even regional airports?

I had not heard of that. Makes sense, though. Thanks for explaining.

tutall
08-21-2011, 06:41 PM
Not even regional airports?

I had not heard of that. Makes sense, though. Thanks for explaining.

there is a regional airport about 35 minutes from my house but pretty much only used for skydiving and hot air balloon flyins... A charter flight from here to Wisconsin was going to set me back about 800 bucks for 2 people... no thank you

REDANDGOLDPRIDE
08-21-2011, 06:52 PM
Ron Paul FTW. Obama is a far second on that list, the rest would scare me in office as president. We'd be in deep crap.

That Bachmann lady is driving me nuts. Her people call my house all the time, I just tell them I'd never vote a woman into office. She'd make a horrible prez, and she keeps pushing that "she's from Iowa and has good ol' American values because she's from Iowa." She's not even from Iowa, she's from Minnesota.

andrewhoya
08-21-2011, 06:54 PM
Ron Paul FTW. Obama is a far second on that list, the rest would scare me in office as president. We'd be in deep crap.

That Bachmann lady is driving me nuts. Her people call my house all the time, I just tell them I'd never vote a woman into office. She'd make a horrible prez, and she keeps pushing that "she's from Iowa and has good ol' American values because she's from Iowa." She's not even from Iowa, she's from Minnesota.

:cheer2:

He's been doing great in the polls lately. Won in Texas yesterday, I think.

sanfran22
08-21-2011, 08:24 PM
Ron Paul FTW. Obama is a far second on that list, the rest would scare me in office as president. We'd be in deep crap.

That Bachmann lady is driving me nuts. Her people call my house all the time, I just tell them I'd never vote a woman into office. She'd make a horrible prez, and she keeps pushing that "she's from Iowa and has good ol' American values because she's from Iowa." She's not even from Iowa, she's from Minnesota.
She's from Iowa. It's uniformed voters that scare me...:winking0071::smash:

sanfran22
08-21-2011, 08:26 PM
and again... convenient for you but I drive an hour and 15 minutes for the closest airport and that airport has very few direct flights to anywhere anyone would want to go.... unless you vacation to Atlanta or St Louis.... From what I have heard they were planning a mileage standard for something like 2015 that the average across the line of vehiclesmade had to be 50 MPG or something like that... You can still produce things like trucks but have to even them out with something that gets 70+ MPH which Americans have proven they do not want.
So they will make a zillion cars that no one will buy therefore driving the price of our standard cars through the roof. Gov't has no business being in business which is what the dems love....
On the bright side, I may be able to get more than I paid for my rogue new when it has 200,000 miles lol.

REDANDGOLDPRIDE
08-21-2011, 08:51 PM
She's from Iowa. It's uniformed voters that scare me...:winking0071::smash:

Well, she moved from Iowa when she was a kid.. Don't think that counts for the way she's trying to swoon voters in Iowa.

sanfran22
08-21-2011, 09:02 PM
Well, she moved from Iowa when she was a kid.. Don't think that counts for the way she's trying to swoon voters in Iowa.
She's still from Iowa... lived there 13 years. When is the cut of from when you can claim heritage?

tutall
08-21-2011, 09:24 PM
she's still from iowa... Lived there 13 years. When is the cut of from when you can claim heritage?

14

pantherfan82
08-22-2011, 09:22 AM
I'm still with Obama. NONE of the republicans impress me.

pghin08
08-22-2011, 11:08 AM
I'm with Obama, but barely above Ron Paul. If Paul somehow got the nod as the Republican candidate (fat chance), I'd have a very tough time deciding.

marekschwarz33
08-22-2011, 04:44 PM
A very interesting Gallup poll concerning the 2012 presidential race:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/149114/Obama-Close-Race-Against-Romney-Perry-Bachmann-Paul.aspx

andrewhoya
08-22-2011, 05:04 PM
A very interesting Gallup poll concerning the 2012 presidential race:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/149114/Obama-Close-Race-Against-Romney-Perry-Bachmann-Paul.aspx

Odd that Paul has the least support of Reublicans yet the most (tied) among Democrats.

mrveggieman
08-22-2011, 05:14 PM
Odd that Paul has the least support of Reublicans yet the most (tied) among Democrats.


That's because ron paul has a lot of innovative ideas and most republicans only care about politics as usual not making our country a better place.

INTIMADATOR2007
08-22-2011, 07:36 PM
How can someone support/love Obama and would vote for Ron Paul over Obama ?
They are nothing alike , And are so far apart on policies it isn't funny . Some here might as well get in the bed with Obama and would vote for Ron Paul over Obama .Help me understand ... lol..lol..Sounds like a set up to me .

INTIMADATOR2007
08-22-2011, 07:39 PM
I'm still with Obama. NONE of the republicans impress me.
Anyone of the republicans would be better choice than Obama ,if they impress you or not they have to be better than what we have now .

INTIMADATOR2007
08-22-2011, 07:40 PM
she's from iowa. It's uniformed voters that scare me...:winking0071::smash:+1

andrewhoya
08-22-2011, 07:53 PM
Anyone of the republicans would be better choice than Obama ,if they impress you or not they have to be better than what we have now .

+1

...that js, except for bachmann. She's the only one I'd take obama over.

pghin08
08-23-2011, 10:11 AM
How can someone support/love Obama and would vote for Ron Paul over Obama ?
They are nothing alike , And are so far apart on policies it isn't funny . Some here might as well get in the bed with Obama and would vote for Ron Paul over Obama .Help me understand ... lol..lol..Sounds like a set up to me .


It's because Paul says what needs to be said. He strikes a chord with the younger generation. He wants to legalize pot, rails against war and wants to reform entitlement programs. I think Obama has been a disappointment to a lot of his campaign supporters (He's disappointed me in some ways, not nearly as much as Bush). Those former Obama supporters have to be pushed somewhere politically, and given that they're predominately young, Ron Paul's more libertarian message is appealing.

All this being said, and though I like Ron Paul, I can see what's happening to Obama would happen to Paul if he were elected, basically having the Washington culture beat the passion out of him.

AUTaxMan
08-23-2011, 02:50 PM
I'm still with Obama. NONE of the republicans impress me.

So you're going to stay with something that has proven not to work instead of trying something new that is currently an unknown?

sanfran22
08-23-2011, 02:51 PM
So you're going to stay with something that has proven not to work instead of trying something new that is currently an unknown?
My thoughts exactly....except it's not necessarily unknown. As much as I don't agree with Romney, he's a decent businessman by all accounts.

mrveggieman
08-23-2011, 04:22 PM
So you're going to stay with something that has proven not to work instead of trying something new that is currently an unknown?


8 years of GWB is all the proof that I need that the republican party is a complete failure. Abe Lincoln is probably turning over in his grave right now.

AUTaxMan
08-23-2011, 04:26 PM
8 years of GWB is all the proof that I need that the republican party is a complete failure. Abe Lincoln is probably turning over in his grave right now.

That's such an ignorant position to take. GWB has nothing to do with this election and is not representative of the republican party at this time.

sanfran22
08-23-2011, 04:28 PM
8 years of GWB is all the proof that I need that the republican party is a complete failure. Abe Lincoln is probably turning over in his grave right now.
Also, you know Abe did something pretty controversial and unconstitutional when he was president right?

mrveggieman
08-23-2011, 04:28 PM
That's such an ignorant position to take. GWB has nothing to do with this election and is not representative of the republican party at this time.


So tell me again who is GWB any different from from any of the current republican clowns not named ron paul?

sanfran22
08-23-2011, 04:30 PM
It's not worth arguing with this guy...trust me. He doesn't know what he's talking about......

mrveggieman
08-23-2011, 04:31 PM
Also, you know Abe did something pretty controversial and unconstitutional when he was president right?


Like standing up for what's right. Yeah that's a pretty radical idea. You and the rest of your republican buddies should try it sometime.

sanfran22
08-23-2011, 04:32 PM
Like standing up for what's right. Yeah that's a pretty radical idea. You and the rest of your republican buddies should try it sometime.
You have no idea what you are talking about. I really hope you are young because you have a lot to learn.
Do aliitle reasearch On lincoln and report what you find. He violated the constitution and had a different position on slavery then many would know. There's a little history I'm sure you didn't know.

mrveggieman
08-23-2011, 04:36 PM
It's not worth arguing with this guy...trust me. He doesn't know what he's talking about......


No my friend anyone who has voted republican in the last few elections has no earthly idea what they are talking about. :winking0071:

mrveggieman
08-23-2011, 04:42 PM
You have no idea what you are talking about. I really hope you are young because you have a lot to learn.
Do aliitle reasearch On lincoln and report what you find. He violated the constitution and had a different position on slavery then many would know. There's a little history I'm sure you didn't know.

I know what I am talking about. I am a grown college educated man. You seem like a bitter old man who is stuck back in the jim crow days. Let it go man. Join the rest of us in the 21st century. :winking0071:

sanfran22
08-23-2011, 04:45 PM
I know what I am talking about. I am a grown college educated man. You seem like a bitter old man who is stuck back in the jim crow days. Let it go man. Join the rest of us in the 21st century. :winking0071:
Lol, sure you are. Anyway, do some research before you speak. Your "college education" is showing....

andrewhoya
08-23-2011, 04:54 PM
No my friend anyone who has voted republican in the last few elections has no earthly idea what they are talking about. :winking0071:

You could say the same for Dems. People are always pointing fingers.

mrveggieman
08-23-2011, 04:55 PM
Lol, sure you are. Anyway, do some research before you speak. Your "college education" is showing....


Right just like you showed us on many occasions how you believe that all men are created equal. You would make a wonderful republican canidate. :lie:

sanfran22
08-23-2011, 05:12 PM
Right just like you showed us on many occasions how you believe that all men are created equal. You would make a wonderful republican canidate. :lie:
Really? You are really showing how ignorant one can truely be. Thanks for your input. Only thing you can ever cry is racism. You are pathetic. The "reverends" would be proud.

pantherfan82
08-24-2011, 09:14 AM
So you're going to stay with something that has proven not to work instead of trying something new that is currently an unknown?

Just bc its new doesn't mean its better

AUTaxMan
08-24-2011, 10:31 AM
Just bc its new doesn't mean its better

Of course not, but how could it possibly be worse?

mrveggieman
08-24-2011, 10:45 AM
Really? You are really showing how ignorant one can truely be. Thanks for your input. Only thing you can ever cry is racism. You are pathetic. The "reverends" would be proud.


And I sure that Jerry Fallwell is looking up at your from where he is and he is beeming with pride. SMH.

andrewhoya
08-24-2011, 10:58 AM
Of course not, but how could it possibly be worse?

was going to say the same thing...

pghin08
08-24-2011, 03:01 PM
Of course not, but how could it possibly be worse?

We live in a political culture where this is the most predominant question, and it's completely preposterous. I remember even in 2000 when Bush was running, people saying "How could he be worse than Clinton?", then when Obama was running in '08, it was, "How can he be worse than Bush?", now it's the same thing. It's ridiculous. Is your life significantly different under Obama than it was under Bush? Probably not. If Rick Perry is our next President, guess what? Your life still won't tangibly change.

This is a huge issue. All we do is feed Washington's bipartisanship by biting into it ourselves. We wonder why Washington doesn't have the political will to tackle the mounting problems we face? It's because we, as a people, don't.

AUTaxMan
08-24-2011, 03:20 PM
We live in a political culture where this is the most predominant question, and it's completely preposterous. I remember even in 2000 when Bush was running, people saying "How could he be worse than Clinton?", then when Obama was running in '08, it was, "How can he be worse than Bush?", now it's the same thing. It's ridiculous. Is your life significantly different under Obama than it was under Bush? Probably not. If Rick Perry is our next President, guess what? Your life still won't tangibly change.

This is a huge issue. All we do is feed Washington's bipartisanship by biting into it ourselves. We wonder why Washington doesn't have the political will to tackle the mounting problems we face? It's because we, as a people, don't.

Ask the people who remain unemployed because our anti-capitalist, pro-regulation President is choking the private sector to death and failing to show any leadership on the economy whether things could possibly get worse.

Ask those living in border states how the President's policies on illegal immigration are affecting them.

Ask anyone in the energy industry how much Obama's regulatory stranglehold on them is costing them in real dollars.

I could go on with examples, but I hope you get my point.

I can tell you that I haven't gotten a raise in two years and won't get one next year, and that is directly attributable to the uncertainty in the markets created by an administration that can't even pass a national budget.

Don't act like it doesn't matter who is President, because it absolutely does.

mrveggieman
08-24-2011, 03:39 PM
Ask the people who remain unemployed because our anti-capitalist, pro-regulation President is choking the private sector to death and failing to show any leadership on the economy whether things could possibly get worse.

Ask those living in border states how the President's policies on illegal immigration are affecting them.

Ask anyone in the energy industry how much Obama's regulatory stranglehold on them is costing them in real dollars.

I could go on with examples, but I hope you get my point.

I can tell you that I haven't gotten a raise in two years and won't get one next year, and that is directly attributable to the uncertainty in the markets created by an administration that can't even pass a national budget.

Don't act like it doesn't matter who is President, because it absolutely does.


Last time I checked the recession started during gwb's watch. Obama came in to try to clean things up but every time that he tried your beloved republican party stonewalled him. I just don't get you people. You complain about politicians who screw up but when someone comes in to try to clean up the mess you complain about him then try to vote him out only to replace him with someone who is a even bigger screw up. SMH.

AUTaxMan
08-24-2011, 03:59 PM
Last time I checked the recession started during gwb's watch. Obama came in to try to clean things up but every time that he tried your beloved republican party stonewalled him. I just don't get you people. You complain about politicians who screw up but when someone comes in to try to clean up the mess you complain about him then try to vote him out only to replace him with someone who is a even bigger screw up. SMH.

Get over Bush man. Obama inherited a mess, but he has done nothing but prolong this recession with his failed stimulus spending, out-of-control fiscal policy, and utter lack of interest in getting a budget passed or addressing entitlement reform. Name one thing Obama has attempted to do that would have turned this economy around but for republican interference.

INTIMADATOR2007
08-24-2011, 04:11 PM
Ask the people who remain unemployed because our anti-capitalist, pro-regulation President is choking the private sector to death and failing to show any leadership on the economy whether things could possibly get worse.

Ask those living in border states how the President's policies on illegal immigration are affecting them.

Ask anyone in the energy industry how much Obama's regulatory stranglehold on them is costing them in real dollars.

I could go on with examples, but I hope you get my point.

I can tell you that I haven't gotten a raise in two years and won't get one next year, and that is directly attributable to the uncertainty in the markets created by an administration that can't even pass a national budget.

Don't act like it doesn't matter who is President, because it absolutely does.
:love0030:

sanfran22
08-24-2011, 04:16 PM
Get over Bush man. Obama inherited a mess, but he has done nothing but prolong this recession with his failed stimulus spending, out-of-control fiscal policy, and utter lack of interest in getting a budget passed or addressing entitlement reform. Name one thing Obama has attempted to do that would have turned this economy around but for republican interference.
Lol, republicans stonewalled him. Really? If stonewalling means no Obamacare, No drilling moratorium, No federally owned bailed out businesses, No stimulus after stimulus after stimulus with no end in sight, No public funds for abortions (foreign and domestic), No more cabinet appointments on friday and bills jammed through in a few days....Then yeah, I'm for stonewalling...:sign0020:

INTIMADATOR2007
08-24-2011, 04:20 PM
Get over Bush man. Obama inherited a mess, but he has done nothing but prolong this recession with his failed stimulus spending, out-of-control fiscal policy, and utter lack of interest in getting a budget passed or addressing entitlement reform. Name one thing Obama has attempted to do that would have turned this economy around but for republican interference.
Some more things Obama inherited was 10 trillion in debt. now its 16.5 and going up . Obama inherited an unemployment rate of 5% what's it now 9%. He also inherited a nation with a AAA rating that is not AAA now . Obama inherited a certain numbers of troops in Afganistan what as that number done gone up .

Obama did not inherate a war with Libiya, record deficits, a record number of folks unemployed and a record number of families on food stamps . What Obama inherited was a nation that was in trouble , not a nation in decline ..

habsheaven
08-24-2011, 04:33 PM
Some more things Obama inherited was 10 trillion in debt. now its 16.5 and going up . Obama inherited an unemployment rate of 5% what's it now 9%. He also inherited a nation with a AAA rating that is not AAA now . Obama inherited a certain numbers of troops in Afganistan what as that number done gone up .

Obama did not inherate a war with Libiya, record deficits, a record number of folks unemployed and a record number of families on food stamps . What Obama inherited was a nation that was in trouble , not a nation in decline ..

We've already had a discussion about the unemployment rate. Your numbers are wrong and extremely misleading.

You also cannot blame the rating drop on him. It shouldn't have been downgraded to begin with and if there is any blame to go around it is equally shared by both sides.

Obama did inherit record deficits.

To say he didn't inherit a nation in decline in every sense means you were living under a rock during 2007-08.

andrewhoya
08-24-2011, 04:34 PM
We've already had a discussion about the unemployment rate. Your numbers are wrong and extremely misleading.

You also cannot blame the rating drop on him. It shouldn't have been downgraded to begin with and if there is any blame to go around it is equally shared by both sides.

Obama did inherit record deficits.

To say he didn't inherit a nation in decline in every sense means you were living under a rock during 2007-08.

Where does it say differently?

INTIMADATOR2007
08-24-2011, 04:37 PM
We've already had a discussion about the unemployment rate. Your numbers are wrong and extremely misleading.

You also cannot blame the rating drop on him. It shouldn't have been downgraded to begin with and if there is any blame to go around it is equally shared by both sides.

Obama did inherit record deficits.

To say he didn't inherit a nation in decline in every sense means you were living under a rock during 2007-08.
So you only blaming bush for 2 years .. I thought ya'll say he was responsible for everything . lol...lol..Oh and my number was wrong on unemployment its really about 16&#37;..

habsheaven
08-24-2011, 04:43 PM
Where does it say differently?

Look it up. The unemployment rate was not 5% when Obama took office.

habsheaven
08-24-2011, 04:46 PM
So you only blaming bush for 2 years .. I thought ya'll say he was responsible for everything . lol...lol..Oh and my number was wrong on unemployment its really about 16%..

I am only referring to 2 years so that you can see the decline. Feel free to go back 8 years and look at where Clinton left the country. Talk about a decline!!

sanfran22
08-24-2011, 04:49 PM
I am only referring to 2 years so that you can see the decline. Feel free to go back 8 years and look at where Clinton left the country. Talk about a decline!!
Yeah, the repub congress did do a pretty good job those years (until the tech bust).:winking0071: Bush did inherit an oncoming recession as well, fyi. He stopped that one pretty good I think.

pghin08
08-24-2011, 04:55 PM
Yeah, the repub congress did do a pretty good job those years (until the tech bust).:winking0071: Bush did inherit an oncoming recession as well, fyi. He stopped that one pretty good I think.

Why does the Republican Congress get credit when something goes right, but it's the Democratic President's fault when things aren't doing as well? It's ridiculous, if things would've sucked from 1993-01, I'm betting you would have blamed Clinton, not the Republican Congress.

When things are bad, it's usually everyone's fault.

sanfran22
08-24-2011, 04:57 PM
Why does the Republican Congress get credit when something goes right, but it's the Democratic President's fault when things aren't doing as well? It's ridiculous, if things would've sucked from 1993-01, I'm betting you would have blamed Clinton, not the Republican Congress.

When things are bad, it's usually everyone's fault.
Just dishing it back, lol. I blame the repub congress for Bushes stuff as well. It actually is more on the congress then the pres. clintons years we had a Liberal pres (then moving a bit back to the center because of the congress and to get reelected) and a repub congress. But the pres can certainly affect things, IE Obama and his "change".

pghin08
08-24-2011, 05:02 PM
Just dishing it back, lol. I blame the repub congress for Bushes stuff as well. It actually is more on the congress then the pres. But the pres can certainly affect things, IE Obama.

I agree that Congress wields more influence than the Presidency, but I disagree with you on Obama. Frankly, I think he's been beaten up badly since he went into office, and actually hasn't done a lot of what he wanted to do, and what he thought he could. I don't think Obama has done much, and THAT'S more of how he's affecting things. We've had such volatility in the marketplace the past month, dealing with the European debt crisis, etc., and Obama has been ominously quiet. He's not being destructive, as a lot of Republicans think, rather, he's been amazingly passive, almost as if he is asleep on some issues.

Edit: This post clearly sets the record for "Amount of commas used in one paragraph"

andrewhoya
08-24-2011, 05:07 PM
Look it up. The unemployment rate was not 5% when Obama took office.

You're right, it wasn't 5, but it certainly wasn't 9.1.

sanfran22
08-24-2011, 05:08 PM
I agree that Congress wields more influence than the Presidency, but I disagree with you on Obama. Frankly, I think he's been beaten up badly since he went into office, and actually hasn't done a lot of what he wanted to do, and what he thought he could. I don't think Obama has done much, and THAT'S more of how he's affecting things. We've had such volatility in the marketplace the past month, dealing with the European debt crisis, etc., and Obama has been ominously quiet. He's not being destructive, as a lot of Republicans think, rather, he's been amazingly passive, almost as if he is asleep on some issues.

Edit: This post clearly sets the record for "Amount of commas used in one paragraph"
Lol, but I don't think Obama believes in the market. I would rather have less gov't intrusion then more. Whether he did what he said or not, He has done several things that have had an adverse effect on the economy.

sanfran22
08-24-2011, 05:09 PM
You're right, it wasn't 5, but it certainly wasn't 9.1.
I think we were promised it wouldn't go over 8%. :smash:

AUTaxMan
08-24-2011, 05:10 PM
I agree that Congress wields more influence than the Presidency, but I disagree with you on Obama. Frankly, I think he's been beaten up badly since he went into office, and actually hasn't done a lot of what he wanted to do, and what he thought he could. I don't think Obama has done much, and THAT'S more of how he's affecting things. We've had such volatility in the marketplace the past month, dealing with the European debt crisis, etc., and Obama has been ominously quiet. He's not being destructive, as a lot of Republicans think, rather, he's been amazingly passive, almost as if he is asleep on some issues.

Edit: This post clearly sets the record for "Amount of commas used in one paragraph"

His passiveness is destructive because it creates uncertainty, which causes volatility. He is not being a leader.

andrewhoya
08-24-2011, 05:10 PM
I think we were promised it wouldn't go over 8%. :smash:

Which happened within a month of taking office :rolleyes:

pghin08
08-24-2011, 05:11 PM
You're right, it wasn't 5, but it certainly wasn't 9.1.

It was a bit over 8%. But unemployment rates and the Presidency really have nothing to do with each other. The unemployment rate was 4.2% when Bush took office, but is it his fault it rose to 8%? No. He presided over a the tech bubble burst, which lost a ton of jobs, and then the first part of our credit crisis of 2008/09. Bush couldn't have really done anything to stem those tides, the same way Obama can't really do anything about this. Obama can't just call up Bank of America and tell them to hire 20,000 people. When large corporations become comfortable with their balance sheets, they'll start hiring (hopefully).

pghin08
08-24-2011, 05:12 PM
His passiveness is destructive because it creates uncertainty, which causes volatility. He is not being a leader.

For the past year, I totally agree with you. He needs to step up and find his cojones.

andrewhoya
08-24-2011, 05:15 PM
It was a bit over 8%. But unemployment rates and the Presidency really have nothing to do with each other. The unemployment rate was 4.2% when Bush took office, but is it his fault it rose to 8%? No. He presided over a the tech bubble burst, which lost a ton of jobs, and then the first part of our credit crisis of 2008/09. Bush couldn't have really done anything to stem those tides, the same way Obama can't really do anything about this. Obama can't just call up Bank of America and tell them to hire 20,000 people. When large corporations become comfortable with their balance sheets, they'll start hiring (hopefully).

7.8%.

While they aren't related directly, they are related indirectly.

habsheaven
08-24-2011, 07:02 PM
Lol, but I don't think Obama believes in the market. I would rather have less gov't intrusion then more. Whether he did what he said or not, He has done several things that have had an adverse effect on the economy.

That's more of the same right-wing propaganda. Canada has enormous gov't intrusion and regulation compared to the US and we have handled this recession better than almost every other country.

sanfran22
08-24-2011, 08:27 PM
That's more of the same right-wing propaganda. Canada has enormous gov't intrusion and regulation compared to the US and we have handled this recession better than almost every other country.
You think You've handled it better because of more gov't intrusion...please do tell.(stimulus?) I guess that's why your gov't just went right wing as well?

pghin08
08-24-2011, 08:43 PM
7.8%.

While they aren't related directly, they are related indirectly.


How? And if so, why not criticize Bush? By your judgement, unemployment went up twice as much under Bush than Obama.

pghin08
08-24-2011, 08:48 PM
You think You've handled it better because of more gov't intrusion...please do tell.(stimulus?) I guess that's why your gov't just went right wing as well?

Dude, right wing in Canada are like Democrats in the US

texansrangerfan73
08-24-2011, 08:51 PM
There ya go I just casted my ballot...

sanfran22
08-24-2011, 08:53 PM
Dude, right wing in Canada are like Democrats in the US
From my understanding, the progressive conservatives were. Not these new guys. It's like here. We have a ton of rino's and progressives and not alot of true conservatives and old school democrats anymore. If anything the rino's are the dems of old now adays.

andrewhoya
08-24-2011, 09:38 PM
How? And if so, why not criticize Bush? By your judgement, unemployment went up twice as much under Bush than Obama.

It never got as bad under Bush- there was one short period where it reached 6%, but he contained it quickly.

pghin08
08-24-2011, 10:12 PM
It never got as bad under Bush- there was one short period where it reached 6%, but he contained it quickly.

No. He did NOTHING to contain unemployment. Just like Obama isn't. Because they really can't. Unless we would do some massive public works programs, a la the New Deal. Again, the government can't just tell Citigroup or whoever to hire people (how's that for big government?).

Presidents and politicians as a whole really don't have a ton to do with employment numbers. Here's why unemployment got high (stop chuckling because I said "got high"):

1. A bunch of banks made awful predatory loans to people who couldn't afford to buy a house. Then they packaged up these mortgages into securities, and sold them to investors.

2. Subsequent subprime crisis in #1 expands

3. Stock market crashes as the extent of the major financial institutions involvement in such perilous investments is revealed, Bear Stearns collapses.

4. Anyone who has any money in the market watches their portfolio fall 30%+

5. People stop buying stuff.

6. Retailers stop needing people to sell stuff

7. Layoffs ensue.


Other than instituting MASSIVE regulatory standards that no one could adequately enforce (and infuriating all of those who believe in the free market), what could Bush or Obama do?

tutall
08-24-2011, 10:18 PM
No. He did NOTHING to contain unemployment. Just like Obama isn't. Because they really can't. Unless we would do some massive public works programs, a la the New Deal. Again, the government can't just tell Citigroup or whoever to hire people (how's that for big government?).

Presidents and politicians as a whole really don't have a ton to do with employment numbers. Here's why unemployment got high (stop chuckling because I said "got high"):

1. A bunch of banks made awful predatory loans to people who couldn't afford to buy a house. Then they packaged up these mortgages into securities, and sold them to investors.

2. Subsequent subprime crisis in #1 expands

3. Stock market crashes as the extent of the major financial institutions involvement in such perilous investments is revealed, Bear Stearns collapses.

4. Anyone who has any money in the market watches their portfolio fall 30%+

5. People stop buying stuff.

6. Retailers stop needing people to sell stuff

7. Layoffs ensue.


Other than instituting MASSIVE regulatory standards that no one could adequately enforce (and infuriating all of those who believe in the free market), what could Bush or Obama do?

Do you know why there was a lot of predatory lending? Do you realize it is right back now where it was before the housing bubble if not worse... Did you know someone now with a 580 credit score and 0 down can still buy a house with very little documentation through the FHA and Fannie Mae is doingvery little to eliminate fraud in the marketplace... its amazing how little we learn

it always drives me nuts when people start blaming the bankers for what happened... i work in the industry and it isnt like I go out and look for people and take advantage of them. Most loans go through government guidelines and if the people sitting in front of me qualify for the program I have to prodeed with the loan. Get rid of the FHA loans if you really want to get somewhere... no buying a house without 20 percent down and at least a good credit rating... But then it is discrimination and blocking people from living the american dream.

Because of this I like Ron Paul for the simple reason he has a record of not conforming... Not to say once he gets in office he wouldnt become just another republican but at least it looks good on the surface.... I like Rick Perry also and Herman Cains business ideas but I think both of them are unelectable

pghin08
08-24-2011, 10:28 PM
Do you know why there was a lot of predatory lending? Do you realize it is right back now where it was before the housing bubble if not worse... Did you know someone now with a 580 credit score and 0 down can still buy a house with very little documentation through the FHA and Fannie Mae is doingvery little to eliminate fraud in the marketplace... its amazing how little we learn

it always drives me nuts when people start blaming the bankers for what happened... i work in the industry and it isnt like I go out and look for people and take advantage of them. Most loans go through government guidelines and if the people sitting in front of me qualify for the program I have to prodeed with the loan. Get rid of the FHA loans if you really want to get somewhere... no buying a house without 20 percent down and at least a good credit rating... But then it is discrimination and blocking people from living the american dream.

Because of this I like Ron Paul for the simple reason he has a record of not conforming... Not to say once he gets in office he wouldnt become just another republican but at least it looks good on the surface.... I like Rick Perry also and Herman Cains business ideas but I think both of them are unelectable

I work in finance too, and believe me, I'm not just pointing the finger at a handful of greedy bankers. It was/is a systemic problem. Look at Germany, a low homeownership rate, but when people buy a house, they put 20-25% down (minimum). It belies the deeper problem that the "American Dream" for some reason has always included a house. We need to change our outlook (and thankfully, Obama has planned an end to Fannie and Freddie--thought they weren't the ONLY problem). But the bankers are NOT blameless in this, at all. And unless your name is Lloyd Blankfein, you shouldn't take it personally.

And by the way, I like Ron Paul too, but I think Washington would water him down.

tutall
08-24-2011, 10:30 PM
I work in finance too, and believe me, I'm not just pointing the finger at a handful of greedy bankers. It was/is a systemic problem. Look at Germany, a low homeownership rate, but when people buy a house, they put 20-25% down (minimum). It belies the deeper problem that the "American Dream" for some reason has always included a house. We need to change our outlook (and thankfully, Obama has planned an end to Fannie and Freddie--thought they weren't the ONLY problem). But the bankers are NOT blameless in this, at all. And unless your name is Lloyd Blankfein, you shouldn't take it personally.

And by the way, I like Ron Paul too, but I think Washington would water him down.

Im not taking it personally at all but somehow America has determined it is the little person like me that is foreclosing on houses and screwing people out of the American Dream... I can tell you banks dont want your homes but you also cant get mad when it gets to a point you cant pay your mortgage anymore... Really there is no one to blame but yourself. As far as packaging them up and sending them out that is done with full disclosure. Those investment firms that were scooping them up knew exactly what they were getting.... or at least should have

pghin08
08-24-2011, 10:35 PM
Im not taking it personally at all but somehow America has determined it is the little person like me that is foreclosing on houses and screwing people out of the American Dream... I can tell you banks dont want your homes but you also cant get mad when it gets to a point you cant pay your mortgage anymore... Really there is no one to blame but yourself. As far as packaging them up and sending them out that is done with full disclosure. Those investment firms that were scooping them up knew exactly what they were getting.... or at least should have

Yes, they certainly should have. But as I'm sure you know, investment firms are always trying to capitalize on the new fads (which is why so many fund companies are trying to sell me their multi-asset strategy funds--why would I want to hire someone to do my job for my clients?)

habsheaven
08-24-2011, 11:20 PM
Dude, right wing in Canada are like Democrats in the US

Lol, at least someone understands our political landscape.

habsheaven
08-24-2011, 11:29 PM
Here is how it works in Canada.

Reform Party = far right-wingers
Progressive Conservative Party = right wingers
Liberal Party = middle of the road, slightly to the left
New Democratic Party = farther to the left
Green Party = even farther to the left
Bloc Quebecois = want their own country

The new Conservative party is a merger of the Reformers and the PCs. They have had a minority government for the last 5 or 6 years and finally got a majority government in the last election because the right has consolidated and the left has been splitting their votes. Don't be fooled into thinking we are a right of center country. lol




From my understanding, the progressive conservatives were. Not these new guys. It's like here. We have a ton of rino's and progressives and not alot of true conservatives and old school democrats anymore. If anything the rino's are the dems of old now adays.

sanfran22
08-25-2011, 09:59 AM
I work in finance too, and believe me, I'm not just pointing the finger at a handful of greedy bankers. It was/is a systemic problem. Look at Germany, a low homeownership rate, but when people buy a house, they put 20-25% down (minimum). It belies the deeper problem that the "American Dream" for some reason has always included a house. We need to change our outlook (and thankfully, Obama has planned an end to Fannie and Freddie--thought they weren't the ONLY problem). But the bankers are NOT blameless in this, at all. And unless your name is Lloyd Blankfein, you shouldn't take it personally.

And by the way, I like Ron Paul too, but I think Washington would water him down.
I have a pretty good idea who promoted this heavily....

pghin08
08-25-2011, 10:09 AM
I have a pretty good idea who promoted this heavily....

If you mean every politician for the last 50 years, then you would be correct.

sanfran22
08-25-2011, 10:12 AM
If you mean every politician for the last 50 years, then you would be correct.
Lol, Ok rephrase. I know of one that pressured the underqualified tactics lol.

pghin08
08-25-2011, 11:12 AM
Lol, Ok rephrase. I know of one that pressured the underqualified tactics lol.

Are you referring to this?

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=64935#axzz1W39kcKTS

sanfran22
08-25-2011, 11:22 AM
Are you referring to this?

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=64935#axzz1W39kcKTS



Actually, just went and read some of the things in that article and it seems he reversed some of the previous practices. Lol at shysters by the way....



First, those who apply for mortgages should be made aware of all the costs and warned about predatory lenders who take advantage of inexperienced buyers. So we've doubled the funds for housing counseling services, including those run by faith-based and community groups. We understand that buying a home for the first time is complicated, and we want to simplify the process. We want to help people understand the pros and cons of buying a home. We want people to be fully aware of what it means to buy a home and what it takes. And we want people as best protected as possible from those shysters who would take advantage of first-time buyers.
Second, we need to make the homebuying process more affordable. Some of the biggest upfront costs in a home purchase are the closing costs. Sometimes they catch you by surprise. [Laughter] Many homebuyers do not have the time to shop around looking for a better deal on closing costs. You're kind of stuck with what you're presented with. And so they end up paying more than they should. So we've proposed new rules to make it easier for buyers to shop around and to compare prices on closing costs, so they can get the best deal and the best service possible. And thirdly, we want to make buying a home simpler. Many first-time buyers look at the paperwork from a loan application and, frankly, get a little nervous about all the fine print. Those forms can be intimidating to the first-time homebuyer. They can be intimidating to the second-or third-time homebuyer too. [Laughter] So this administration has proposed new rules to simplify the forms homebuyers and homeowners fill out when they apply for a loan or close on a mortgage


Read more at the American Presidency Project: George W. Bush: Remarks on Signing the American Dream Downpayment Act (http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=64935#ixzz1W3DAl7yo) http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=64935#ixzz1W3DAl7yo

pghin08
08-25-2011, 11:37 AM
Actually, just went and read some of the things in that article and it seems he reversed some of the previous practices. Lol at shysters by the way....



First, those who apply for mortgages should be made aware of all the costs and warned about predatory lenders who take advantage of inexperienced buyers. So we've doubled the funds for housing counseling services, including those run by faith-based and community groups. We understand that buying a home for the first time is complicated, and we want to simplify the process. We want to help people understand the pros and cons of buying a home. We want people to be fully aware of what it means to buy a home and what it takes. And we want people as best protected as possible from those shysters who would take advantage of first-time buyers.
Second, we need to make the homebuying process more affordable. Some of the biggest upfront costs in a home purchase are the closing costs. Sometimes they catch you by surprise. [Laughter] Many homebuyers do not have the time to shop around looking for a better deal on closing costs. You're kind of stuck with what you're presented with. And so they end up paying more than they should. So we've proposed new rules to make it easier for buyers to shop around and to compare prices on closing costs, so they can get the best deal and the best service possible. And thirdly, we want to make buying a home simpler. Many first-time buyers look at the paperwork from a loan application and, frankly, get a little nervous about all the fine print. Those forms can be intimidating to the first-time homebuyer. They can be intimidating to the second-or third-time homebuyer too. [Laughter] So this administration has proposed new rules to simplify the forms homebuyers and homeowners fill out when they apply for a loan or close on a mortgage


Read more at the American Presidency Project: George W. Bush: Remarks on Signing the American Dream Downpayment Act (http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=64935#ixzz1W3DAl7yo) http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=64935#ixzz1W3DAl7yo


Regardless of particulars, the goal of the act was to help low-income families buy a house. My point is that this hasn't been a one-man show here; Presidents and other politicians from both sides of the aisle have been advocating this for decades. They're all culpable.

sanfran22
08-25-2011, 11:42 AM
Regardless of particulars, the goal of the act was to help low-income families buy a house. My point is that this hasn't been a one-man show here; Presidents and other politicians from both sides of the aisle have been advocating this for decades. They're all culpable.
You're right to some point, but this speech seems to deal with things that were not previously addressed. Bush didn't do enough to stop this housing debacle IMO but he did try. I remember Barney Frank saying there was no issue. And he still has his job, lol.

pghin08
08-25-2011, 12:01 PM
You're right to some point, but this speech seems to deal with things that were not previously addressed. Bush didn't do enough to stop this housing debacle IMO but he did try. I remember Barney Frank saying there was no issue. And he still has his job, lol.

That's what I mean. This wasn't a partisan thing, politicians across the board did two things:

1. Trumped up low-income families buying houses, because to them, homeownership was good, even if the family couldn't afford the payments.

2. Ignored the subprime crisis to a massive degree. I remember Ben Stein (though of course, not a politician) going on CNBC and saying that subprime mortgages were barely a pimple on the face of the mortgage-backed securities market. All while Peter Schiff of Europacific Capital was saying he was crazy.

Anywho, I just like to make sure blame goes around equally on Democrats (who I do think were the first to push this, some decades ago) and Republicans (who jumped on board).

pwaldo
08-26-2011, 05:59 PM
This is a huge issue. All we do is feed Washington's bipartisanship by biting into it ourselves. We wonder why Washington doesn't have the political will to tackle the mounting problems we face? It's because we, as a people, don't.

No the reason they don't tackle any problems is because they don't have to. They have a legion of mindless zombies that will vote for them no matter what they do. They just have to scare you into thinking that somebody else is going to be even worse than they are.

This is statistically the worst polled Congress of all time yet what was it 90+% that were reelected? They have no fear that their job is in jeopardy so they don't do anything to help people who still are fans of them. If fools continue to reelect sub par people then nothing will change.

Like I said before if somebody is a bad politician then vote them out. STOP SUPPORTING THEM!

andrewhoya
01-28-2012, 09:19 PM
Wow. Romney and Gingrich got zero votes each lol.

andrewhoya
01-28-2012, 09:20 PM
In fact, they were the only people NOT to get a vote.

mrveggieman
01-30-2012, 09:43 AM
Now if only no one would vote for either one of those jokers during the election.

ensbergcollector
01-30-2012, 10:53 AM
Now if only no one would vote for either one of those jokers during the election.

smh...

pghin08
01-30-2012, 11:10 AM
how did Bachmann get two? i didn't think anyone on SCF liked her at any point, really.