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AUTaxMan
09-20-2011, 11:58 PM
Anybody seen it? I know the guy has a dorky sense of humor and gets way too emotional at times, but if you actually watch the guy's show and listen to what he says instead of letting the media make your opinion for you, I don't see how you can't like him and respect his message.

sanfran22
09-21-2011, 10:54 AM
It's a pay site isn't it? He's a little over the top for me (except I liked his tv show), but his message is pretty on-target......
I prefer Dennis Prager, Ibbitson, Thomas Sowell, John Gibson, and if I'm feeling pretty down on the libtards Andrew Wilkow, lol.....

pghin08
09-21-2011, 10:54 AM
I used to tune into Beck's show at least once or twice a week when he was on CNN and Fox. I will say this about the man, he believes what he says. He's not the least bit disingenuous.

He is, however, a nutjob. He is Joseph McCarthy reincarnated. His fear of anything different than himself pervades his every thought and completely skews his worldview. Remember, this is once a guy who asked Keith Ellison, a Muslim Congressman (I'm paraphrasing here) "I like Muslims, but prove to me that you aren't working with our enemies". What Beck knows very well is what comments like that implies to his viewers. It's as if he's telling them, "Hey, there's a Muslim conspiracy to take over the US". And these people believe this.

And respect his message? This is a guy who once called President Obama a racist. If someone were to base-lessly say that about George Bush (oh, I don't know, like some guy named Kanye West), he would be vilified. Yet Beck gets away with it. He gets away with saying ridiculous things like comparing the youth camp in Norway where those terrible murders occurred to Hitler's Nazi Germany.

He's not without his counterparts. I throw people like Lawrence O'Donnell and Keith Olbermann in that camp, though I usually don't find their rhetoric as incendiary. These people are not newsmen, they simply spin news to fit their own agendas. The reason that Beck is dangerous, and I don't say that facetiously, I mean it; is because many people in our country turn to him as their main source of news. Beck's power outweighs Olbermann, O'Donnell, etc. because he has a far larger and more loyal audience. So when Beck says something, like it or not, it has ramifications.

The brilliant and reasonable conservative commentator David Frum has faced a storm of criticism in recent years for his views on Beck (Earlier this year, he actually called Beck a "circus act"). In response to this, a significant group of people go around saying that Frum is a fake conservative, predominately because he doesn't like Glenn Beck. This, of course, is baseless and ridiculous. Frum was a speechwriter under GWB, and has written many pro-conservative books (not to mention his unreal academic credentials). But because he was critical of Glenn Beck, he's a phony. THAT'S the power that Beck has. And it is unrivaled in today's media.

And before I get vilified on here, I'm NOT someone who rails against every talking head out there in the political world that doesn't agree with me. I'm just someone that happens to think that of those people, Glenn Beck is the most wildly misinformed and the most outlandish.

AUTaxMan
09-21-2011, 11:44 AM
It's a pay site isn't it? He's a little over the top for me (except I liked his tv show), but his message is pretty on-target......
I prefer Dennis Prager, Ibbitson, Thomas Sowell, John Gibson, and if I'm feeling pretty down on the libtards Andrew Wilkow, lol.....

It's a pay site ($5 a month), but you can sign up for a 14-day free trial.

ensbergcollector
09-21-2011, 11:59 AM
I used to tune into Beck's show at least once or twice a week when he was on CNN and Fox. I will say this about the man, he believes what he says. He's not the least bit disingenuous.

He is, however, a nutjob. He is Joseph McCarthy reincarnated. His fear of anything different than himself pervades his every thought and completely skews his worldview. Remember, this is once a guy who asked Keith Ellison, a Muslim Congressman (I'm paraphrasing here) "I like Muslims, but prove to me that you aren't working with our enemies". What Beck knows very well is what comments like that implies to his viewers. It's as if he's telling them, "Hey, there's a Muslim conspiracy to take over the US". And these people believe this.

And respect his message? This is a guy who once called President Obama a racist. If someone were to base-lessly say that about George Bush (oh, I don't know, like some guy named Kanye West), he would be vilified. Yet Beck gets away with it. He gets away with saying ridiculous things like comparing the youth camp in Norway where those terrible murders occurred to Hitler's Nazi Germany.

He's not without his counterparts. I throw people like Lawrence O'Donnell and Keith Olbermann in that camp, though I usually don't find their rhetoric as incendiary. These people are not newsmen, they simply spin news to fit their own agendas. The reason that Beck is dangerous, and I don't say that facetiously, I mean it; is because many people in our country turn to him as their main source of news. Beck's power outweighs Olbermann, O'Donnell, etc. because he has a far larger and more loyal audience. So when Beck says something, like it or not, it has ramifications.

The brilliant and reasonable conservative commentator David Frum has faced a storm of criticism in recent years for his views on Beck (Earlier this year, he actually called Beck a "circus act"). In response to this, a significant group of people go around saying that Frum is a fake conservative, predominately because he doesn't like Glenn Beck. This, of course, is baseless and ridiculous. Frum was a speechwriter under GWB, and has written many pro-conservative books (not to mention his unreal academic credentials). But because he was critical of Glenn Beck, he's a phony. THAT'S the power that Beck has. And it is unrivaled in today's media.

And before I get vilified on here, I'm NOT someone who rails against every talking head out there in the political world that doesn't agree with me. I'm just someone that happens to think that of those people, Glenn Beck is the most wildly misinformed and the most outlandish.

this is not a defense of beck, i honestly haven't ever see his show. However, how can you see any clip from the church obama attended for over a decade and not come away thinking the guy is racist? I know I am opening myself up here but if I attended a church where the preacher was constantly making our church more about race then God, I would leave. Obama didn't which implies he agreed to some degree.

pghin08
09-21-2011, 12:12 PM
this is not a defense of beck, i honestly haven't ever see his show. However, how can you see any clip from the church obama attended for over a decade and not come away thinking the guy is racist? I know I am opening myself up here but if I attended a church where the preacher was constantly making our church more about race then God, I would leave. Obama didn't which implies he agreed to some degree.

I'll put it this way. I'm a non-Catholic. However, I attended a Catholic University for undergrad (which I loved immensely, but that's beside the point). There were codes and belief structures there that I did not identify or agree with. So should I have disavowed the university because they said or did something that I didn't necessarily believe? No, of course not. In fact, if we did that, which is to remove yourself from an association because of one or a few disagreements, we probably would never stay in the same churches/schools/workplaces, what have you.

So even though I went to a Catholic university, does that mean I ascribe myself to all views of Catholicism? Far from it. You can be part of broad organizations such as churches, universities and companies all while not being a 100% supporter of every idea, person, decision or belief.

duane1969
09-21-2011, 12:13 PM
this is not a defense of beck, i honestly haven't ever see his show. However, how can you see any clip from the church obama attended for over a decade and not come away thinking the guy is racist? I know I am opening myself up here but if I attended a church where the preacher was constantly making our church more about race then God, I would leave. Obama didn't which implies he agreed to some degree.

I see where you are coming from and agree with you. However, in his defense, I don't think that Obama was an "every time the doors are open" type of congregation member either. My guess is that his appearances were more about being seen in church and appearing to be part of the community than going to church to hear the message. More often than not he was probably daydreaming the entire sermon about some day when he would be supreme ruler over Socialist Amer...err, be president.

duane1969
09-21-2011, 12:15 PM
So even though I went to a Catholic university, does that mean I ascribe myself to all views of Catholicism?

Yes.

Just give it a few minutes and either GBM or veggie will be in to explain your new religious nut classification.

I couldn't resist...:confused0024:

pghin08
09-21-2011, 12:28 PM
Yes.

Just give it a few minutes and either GBM or veggie will be in to explain your new religious nut classification.

I couldn't resist...:confused0024:

I always knew that deep down, I was a religious zealot :winking0071:

sanfran22
09-21-2011, 12:50 PM
I'll put it this way. I'm a non-Catholic. However, I attended a Catholic University for undergrad (which I loved immensely, but that's beside the point). There were codes and belief structures there that I did not identify or agree with. So should I have disavowed the university because they said or did something that I didn't necessarily believe? No, of course not. In fact, if we did that, which is to remove yourself from an association because of one or a few disagreements, we probably would never stay in the same churches/schools/workplaces, what have you.

So even though I went to a Catholic university, does that mean I ascribe myself to all views of Catholicism? Far from it. You can be part of broad organizations such as churches, universities and companies all while not being a 100% supporter of every idea, person, decision or belief.

I see going to a Catholic university and going to a church as two total different things. I went to Ohio State and I had disagreements with alot of my teaches (comp studies, psych ect). I was going there to get an education for a job. A church is a spiritual education if you will. You go there to grow in your faith. If you didn't believe it, why would you attend it? Unless it was for show like previously stated....

AUTaxMan
09-21-2011, 01:02 PM
I see going to a Catholic university and going to a church as two total different things. I went to Ohio State and I had disagreements with alot of my teaches (comp studies, psych ect). I was going there to get an education for a job. A church is a spiritual education if you will. You go there to grow in your faith. If you didn't believe it, why would you attend it? Unless it was for show like previously stated....

Agreed. You cannot equate the two.

pghin08
09-21-2011, 01:05 PM
I see going to a Catholic university and going to a church as two total different things. I went to Ohio State and I had disagreements with alot of my teaches (comp studies, psych ect). I was going there to get an education for a job. A church is a spiritual education if you will. You go there to grow in your faith. If you didn't believe it, why would you attend it? Unless it was for show like previously stated....

That's not my whole point though. My point is that you can disagree with certain aspects of a church or any other organization, but their core beliefs bring you a sense of peace and understanding. Though truly, universities and churches aren't wildly different. Like you said, both are educational and you are free to leave a university just the same way that you can a church.

And to address the "church for show" issue. I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. I don't doubt that he's religious in ways, but I don't think that his faith really guides his politics.

pghin08
09-21-2011, 01:06 PM
Agreed. You cannot equate the two.

I disagree. However, we're straying from the original topic here.

mrveggieman
09-21-2011, 02:19 PM
I went to college, have a job with a supervisor and have a bishop that I see in church almost every week. My point is in all of those places work, school church there is no one from teachers, to supervisors to even my bishop himself that I have agreed with everything 100% even though most of what my bishop says is on point. If you are trying to suggest that President Obama is racist because of his bishop one could suggest that all christians are racist because of racists preachers like jerry fallwell and all of his running mates.

sanfran22
09-21-2011, 02:24 PM
I went to college, have a job with a supervisor and have a bishop that I see in church almost every week. My point is in all of those places work, school church there is no one from teachers, to supervisors to even my bishop himself that I have agreed with everything 100% even though most of what my bishop says is on point. If you are trying to suggest that President Obama is racist because of his bishop one could suggest that all christians are racist because of racists preachers like jerry fallwell and all of his running mates.

Explain to me how you equate the two....Pres Obama is one man who voluntarily attends a wack-o church. Christianity is a whole lot of people that do not necessarily attend Fallwells (one man's ) church or subscribe to his beliefs. That's comparing one man's choice to a whole religion. Kind of like saying Christians, Catholics, Mormons are all the same....Now if you want to say that those that attend Fallwells church are the same as Obama, you'd at least have an argument.

AUTaxMan
09-21-2011, 02:33 PM
I went to college, have a job with a supervisor and have a bishop that I see in church almost every week. My point is in all of those places work, school church there is no one from teachers, to supervisors to even my bishop himself that I have agreed with everything 100% even though most of what my bishop says is on point. If you are trying to suggest that President Obama is racist because of his bishop one could suggest that all christians are racist because of racists preachers like jerry fallwell and all of his running mates.

Sorry. Jerry Falwell did not pastor me for 20 years, did not marry me, did not baptize my children, and did not act as my personal spiritual adviser.

mrveggieman
09-21-2011, 02:52 PM
Explain to me how you equate the two....Pres Obama is one man who voluntarily attends a wack-o church. Christianity is a whole lot of people that do not necessarily attend Fallwells (one man's ) church or subscribe to his beliefs. That's comparing one man's choice to a whole religion. Kind of like saying Christians, Catholics, Mormons are all the same....Now if you want to say that those that attend Fallwells church are the same as Obama, you'd at least have an argument.


I get it is ok to lump all muslims together because of nuts like bin laden (even though he is only 1 out of 1 billion muslims) but you must never lump all christians together because bigots like fallwell do not represent christians as a whole and whenever he put his foot in his mouth he is only speaking his personal views. I glad that you cleared that up for the discussion board.

sanfran22
09-21-2011, 02:55 PM
I get it is ok to lump all muslims together because of nuts like bin laden (even though he is only 1 out of 1 billion muslims) but you must never lump all christians together because bigots like fallwell do not represent christians as a whole and whenever he put his foot in his mouth he is only speaking his personal views. I glad that you cleared that up for the discussion board.

No, whole nations of people subscribe to that theory. I don't think whole nations subscribe to the Fallwells or Phelps ect... Once more, look at the two religions and draw your own conclusions. Compare the life of Jesus to that of Mohammed and lmk what you find. Both were considered "prophets" by Islam. Compare the teachings and instructions. Compare the overall treatment of people... You really have to figure this out. As I have hashed out a thousand times for those that are either ignorant or refuse to listen. One religion teaches conversion by force and another conversion by love and witness. How anyone could compare the two religions is asinine. There is only one, true way. If you don't believe that, don't call yourself Christian.

AUTaxMan
09-21-2011, 02:56 PM
I get it is ok to lump all muslims together because of nuts like bin laden (even though he is only 1 out of 1 billion muslims) but you must never lump all christians together because bigots like fallwell do not represent christians as a whole and whenever he put his foot in his mouth he is only speaking his personal views. I glad that you cleared that up for the discussion board.

Nobody on this board is or has ever to my knowledge lumped all Muslims together as extremists. Many, many times, conservatives on this board have pointed out this FACT to you. You need to get it through your thick skull that the conservatives on this board do not believe this, even though you want to think we do.

AUTaxMan
09-21-2011, 03:00 PM
Mods, I know the topic has changed course, but it's my thread, and I don't mind.

sanfran22
09-21-2011, 03:03 PM
That's not my whole point though. My point is that you can disagree with certain aspects of a church or any other organization, but their core beliefs bring you a sense of peace and understanding. Though truly, universities and churches aren't wildly different. Like you said, both are educational and you are free to leave a university just the same way that you can a church.

And to address the "church for show" issue. I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case. I don't doubt that he's religious in ways, but I don't think that his faith really guides his politics.

But you are not going to a church to get job training as in college. You are going to the two for totally different reasons. That's why I could go to OSU, but I wouldn't be going to a Catholic church.

pghin08
09-21-2011, 03:17 PM
But you are not going to a church to get job training as in college. You are going to the two for totally different reasons. That's why I could go to OSU, but I wouldn't be going to a Catholic church.

So? It doesn't matter what your end goal is. The fact is that they are two institutions to which you have a choice of whether or not you'd like to attend them based on their ideologies, effectiveness, whatever reason you'd have.

sanfran22
09-21-2011, 03:20 PM
So? It doesn't matter what your end goal is. The fact is that they are two institutions to which you have a choice of whether or not you'd like to attend them based on their ideologies, effectiveness, whatever reason you'd have.

I think it does. I can handle a secular school, not gonna tolerate a church that doesn't line up with my beliefs.....

mrveggieman
09-21-2011, 03:28 PM
No, whole nations of people subscribe to that theory. I don't think whole nations subscribe to the Fallwells or Phelps ect... Once more, look at the two religions and draw your own conclusions. Compare the life of Jesus to that of Mohammed and lmk what you find. Both were considered "prophets" by Islam. Compare the teachings and instructions. Compare the overall treatment of people... You really have to figure this out. As I have hashed out a thousand times for those that are either ignorant or refuse to listen. One religion teaches conversion by force and another conversion by love and witness. How anyone could compare the two religions is asinine. There is only one, true way. If you don't believe that, don't call yourself Christian.


No disrespect but if I want to learn about Islam I will go to a true muslim not someone who has an agenda against muslims. Just like if I want to learn christanity I will go to a true christian not someone with an agenda. :winking0071:

DaClyde
09-21-2011, 03:30 PM
Glenn Beck must either have multiple personality disorder or be seriously bi-polar or something. At times, he was the most level-headed, reasonable person on Fox. At others, he was tying absolutely everyone to Hitler, George Soros or both. It seems like there is a brilliant man in there somewhere being held prisoner by a crazy person.

habsheaven
09-21-2011, 03:30 PM
Nobody on this board is or has ever to my knowledge lumped all Muslims together as extremists. Many, many times, conservatives on this board have pointed out this FACT to you. You need to get it through your thick skull that the conservatives on this board do not believe this, even though you want to think we do.

Perhaps you should read the post directly before yours before you make this claim again. Sanfran22 just told us "whole nations of people" subscribe to Bin Laden's "theory".

pghin08
09-21-2011, 03:36 PM
I think it does. I can handle a secular school, not gonna tolerate a church that doesn't line up with my beliefs.....

Are you a churchgoer? If so, do you 100% agree with everything that goes on in that church?

AUTaxMan
09-21-2011, 03:38 PM
Perhaps you should read the post directly before yours before you make this claim again. Sanfran22 just told us "whole nations of people" subscribe to Bin Laden's "theory".

That's the same as saying "all Muslims are extremists"? Wasn't he was merely saying that there are a lot of people on the extremist side of Muslim politics? Isn't this evident by the violence occurring throughout the Muslim world?

sanfran22
09-21-2011, 03:40 PM
No disrespect but if I want to learn about Islam I will go to a true muslim not someone who has an agenda against muslims. Just like if I want to learn christanity I will go to a true christian not someone with an agenda. :winking0071:

You have no idea what you are talking about. Thanks for sharing....

AUTaxMan
09-21-2011, 03:40 PM
Are you a churchgoer? If so, do you 100% agree with everything that goes on in that church?

Is your point that just because you attend a church does not mean that you subscribe to all of its teachings?

sanfran22
09-21-2011, 03:41 PM
Are you a churchgoer? If so, do you 100% agree with everything that goes on in that church?

Yes, churchgoer. We are also talking about what the curch stands for, not what some fallible person may do or say. So yes, I agree with my churches mission statement.

sanfran22
09-21-2011, 03:43 PM
Perhaps you should read the post directly before yours before you make this claim again. Sanfran22 just told us "whole nations of people" subscribe to Bin Laden's "theory".

I never said every Muslim wants to blow us up. I do constantly say the religion is not how your type would portray. It is not a religion of peace. It is a false religion with an evil man as their "prophet". What good could come out of a religion that is not the one true God?. You guys need to quit making assumptions.

mrveggieman
09-21-2011, 03:46 PM
You have no idea what you are talking about. Thanks for sharing....


And neither do you. Thanks for participating and please come back soon. :kiss:

sanfran22
09-21-2011, 03:55 PM
And neither do you. Thanks for participating and please come back soon. :kiss:

Anytime you'd like to have a serious debate where you actually try to debate, let me know......

pghin08
09-21-2011, 03:58 PM
Is your point that just because you attend a church does not mean that you subscribe to all of its teachings?

That is exactly my point. Don't get me wrong, I know people who do that. People who believe their church, pastor, etc can say or do no wrong. My point is that I don't think you have to 100% agree with every single thing that happens or is said within your church.

By the way, I'm still waiting for someone to rebut what I said about Glenn Beck :winking0071:

pghin08
09-21-2011, 03:59 PM
Yes, churchgoer. We are also talking about what the curch stands for, not what some fallible person may do or say. So yes, I agree with my churches mission statement.

Point taken.

AUTaxMan
09-21-2011, 04:01 PM
I've always wanted to know why liberals will bend over backwards to defend Muslims, even to the point of denying facts about Muslim politics, when we all know that if Muslims ruled the world, the liberals and minorities would be the first ones to be oppressed.

mrveggieman
09-21-2011, 04:05 PM
I've always wanted to know why liberals will bend over backwards to defend Muslims, even to the point of denying facts about Muslim politics, when we all know that if Muslims ruled the world, the liberals and minorities would be the first ones to be oppressed.


Just like it extremist christians like fallwell (if he were alive today) and pat robertson would go back to jim crow days if it were up to them.

AUTaxMan
09-21-2011, 04:08 PM
That is exactly my point. Don't get me wrong, I know people who do that. People who believe their church, pastor, etc can say or do no wrong. My point is that I don't think you have to 100% agree with every single thing that happens or is said within your church.

By the way, I'm still waiting for someone to rebut what I said about Glenn Beck :winking0071:

The difference here is that Obama's church is the model church of Black Liberation Theology. Obama may not support everything Rev. Wright has preached in the past, but it does not change the fact that the overall mission of the church of which he was a long-standing member is to teach that whites oppress blacks, that God is on the side of the blacks, and that the only way to remedy black oppression is through some sort of social justice/government-forced means of socialism.

AUTaxMan
09-21-2011, 04:09 PM
Just like it extremist christians like fallwell (if he were alive today) and pat robertson would go back to jim crow days if it were up to them.

Please show me the factual basis for this statement. I will be glad to shower you with facts supporting the statement I made.

mrveggieman
09-21-2011, 04:14 PM
The difference here is that Obama's church is the model church of Black Liberation Theology. Obama may not support everything Rev. Wright has preached in the past, but it does not change the fact that the overall mission of the church of which he was a long-standing member is to teach that whites oppress blacks, that God is on the side of the blacks, and that the only way to remedy black oppression is through some sort of social justice/government-forced means of socialism.


Please show me the factual basis for this statement. I will be glad to shower you with facts supporting the statement I made.

mrveggieman
09-21-2011, 04:15 PM
Please show me the factual basis for this statement. I will be glad to shower you with facts supporting the statement I made.


http://www.nndb.com/people/558/000022492/

There's plenty more where that came from.

I was actually quoting this from our friend the taxman.

pghin08
09-21-2011, 04:17 PM
The difference here is that Obama's church is the model church of Black Liberation Theology. Obama may not support everything Rev. Wright has preached in the past, but it does not change the fact that the overall mission of the church of which he was a long-standing member is to teach that whites oppress blacks, that God is on the side of the blacks, and that the only way to remedy black oppression is through some sort of social justice/government-forced means of socialism.


I think you're misunderstanding their mission a little bit. The church was created almost in response to the radical black Muslim leaders of the day. It's not that they teach that whites oppress blacks and that there needs to be some kind of racial warfare. It seems to me that their message is more "God loves the poor" than anything else. Which according to what I know from the bible, is true.

Frankly, I don't hold Obama's religion to be of great importance. Like I've said, I don't think he governs on his faith.

habsheaven
09-21-2011, 04:17 PM
That's the same as saying "all Muslims are extremists"? Wasn't he was merely saying that there are a lot of people on the extremist side of Muslim politics? Isn't this evident by the violence occurring throughout the Muslim world?

He says MULTIPLE nations. That's alot closer to "all Muslims are extremists" than it is to the truth. No, it is not evident. The violence occurring in the Middle East has nothing to do with the masses of people or their Muslim faith. Why would you even think that? :confused0024:

AUTaxMan
09-21-2011, 04:18 PM
Please show me the factual basis for this statement. I will be glad to shower you with facts supporting the statement I made.

I'm sure you won't read the article, but this guy wrote a book on the subject.

http://www.acton.org/pub/commentary/2008/04/02/marxist-roots-black-liberation-theology

AUTaxMan
09-21-2011, 04:21 PM
Who is in charge of Egypt right now?

AUTaxMan
09-21-2011, 04:23 PM
I think you're misunderstanding their mission a little bit. The church was created almost in response to the radical black Muslim leaders of the day. It's not that they teach that whites oppress blacks and that there needs to be some kind of racial warfare. It seems to me that their message is more "God loves the poor" than anything else. Which according to what I know from the bible, is true.

Frankly, I don't hold Obama's religion to be of great importance. Like I've said, I don't think he governs on his faith.

Actually, I think the way he governs is pretty much in line with that faith/philosophy, though he would never openly admit it.

AUTaxMan
09-21-2011, 04:25 PM
http://www.nndb.com/people/558/000022492/

There's plenty more where that came from.

I was actually quoting this from our friend the taxman.

Where in there does it say anything about governing the country or taking us back to jim crow?

habsheaven
09-21-2011, 04:29 PM
I never said every Muslim wants to blow us up. I do constantly say the religion is not how your type would portray. It is not a religion of peace. It is a false religion with an evil man as their "prophet". What good could come out of a religion that is not the one true God?. You guys need to quit making assumptions.

You implied it by quoting mrveggieman's comment about Bin Laden with a response that "whole nations of people" follow that theory. That is not an assumption on my part. That is what you said. The implication was clear.

What is my "type"?

"True" and "God" do not belong in the same sentence. Talk about assumptions. :whistle:

AUTaxMan
09-21-2011, 04:32 PM
"True" and "God" do not belong in the same sentence.

This statement serves no other purpose than to be inflammatory. It is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

pghin08
09-21-2011, 04:32 PM
Actually, I think the way he governs is pretty much in line with that faith/philosophy, though he would never openly admit it.

Why do you think that? We've had tons of socialist-type programs in this country before Obama, and will have the same ones after.

habsheaven
09-21-2011, 04:34 PM
Not the "people" if that is what you are suggesting.

AUTaxMan
09-21-2011, 04:34 PM
Why do you think that? We've had tons of socialist-type programs in this country before Obama, and will have the same ones after.

Seemingly all of his rhetoric is nothing more than class warfare, pitting the helpless and oppressed poor against the evil rich. He routinely talks of "fairness," "fair share," and "giving back," which are all indicative of his philosophy.

AUTaxMan
09-21-2011, 04:37 PM
Not the "people" if that is what you are suggesting.

The strongest political party in Egypt right now is the Muslim Brotherhood. Libya will be no different.

habsheaven
09-21-2011, 04:38 PM
This statement serves no other purpose than to be inflammatory. It is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

It was in response to another statement that is totally irrelevant to the discussion. If someone is going to start preaching in the thread. I am going to respond.

Interesting that you didn't find his comment "inflammatory".

sanfran22
09-21-2011, 04:38 PM
Can anyone here validate that the Muslim faith is not an oppressive religion?

sanfran22
09-21-2011, 04:42 PM
You implied it by quoting mrveggieman's comment about Bin Laden with a response that "whole nations of people" follow that theory. That is not an assumption on my part. That is what you said. The implication was clear.

What is my "type"?

"True" and "God" do not belong in the same sentence. Talk about assumptions. :whistle:

So Countless millions of people do not wish the destruction of Israel? The downfall of the US?

And yes, true God is relevant, you will find out one day.

mrveggieman
09-21-2011, 04:42 PM
Where in there does it say anything about governing the country or taking us back to jim crow?


Did you conveniently ignore the part where the article talked about fallwell preached that segregation was god's plan and that he was open about his racism until it was no longer socially acceptable? It is a known fact that fallwell and pat robertson were close friends and share a lot of the same views. Robertson was once a republican presidential canidate. Would it not be a stretch that if fallwell or robertson had their way that we would not go back to the days of jim crow?

AUTaxMan
09-21-2011, 04:43 PM
It was in response to another statement that is totally irrelevant to the discussion. If someone is going to start preaching in the thread. I am going to respond.

Interesting that you didn't find his comment "inflammatory".

I didn't think it was meant to flame. Yours appeared to have been meant do so.

AUTaxMan
09-21-2011, 04:48 PM
Did you conveniently ignore the part where the article talked about fallwell preached that segregation was god's plan and that he was open about his racism until it was no longer socially acceptable? It is a known fact that fallwell and pat robertson were close friends and share a lot of the same views. Robertson was once a republican presidential canidate. Would it not be a stretch that if fallwell or robertson had their way that we would not go back to the days of jim crow?

Christians would not allow that to happen. Let's not talk in hypotheticals, though, let's talk in facts. Is there a Muslim government in the world that is not outwardly oppressive of non-Muslims and minorities of all types?

sanfran22
09-21-2011, 04:56 PM
Why do you think that? We've had tons of socialist-type programs in this country before Obama, and will have the same ones after.

My guess...Because he goes around apologizing for what we are. Because his wife says she's finally proud to be an American. Because he's shown that his answer to everything is more money/gov't programs and extensions. His a big gov't, we will take care of you because you can't do it yourself type of guy. It's apparent he doesn't like what we are and needs to mold us into a more euro style country.....

mrveggieman
09-21-2011, 04:59 PM
Christians would not allow that to happen. Let's not talk in hypotheticals, though, let's talk in facts. Is there a Muslim government in the world that is not outwardly oppressive of non-Muslims and minorities of all types?


How is that any different from the christian gov't that we had in the united states for hundreds of years that enslaved blacks, practiced segregation and opressed women?

AUTaxMan
09-21-2011, 05:08 PM
How is that any different from the christian gov't that we had in the united states for hundreds of years that enslaved blacks, practiced segregation and opressed women?

I am not talking about what happened 100 or 200 years ago. I am talking about today. Do you honestly fear that our nation will return to the days of slavery and segregation if it was run by Christians?

sanfran22
09-21-2011, 05:09 PM
I thought I heard it wasn't a Christian govt?? Libs having it both ways....nice.

mrveggieman
09-21-2011, 05:14 PM
I am not talking about what happened 100 or 200 years ago. I am talking about today. Do you honestly fear that our nation will return to the days of slavery and segregation if it was run by Christians?


If the religious right had their way they would it would be very uncomfortable for everyone that they consider an undesirable eg minorities and nonbelievers. They wont admit to it but you and I both know that is their desire.

sanfran22
09-21-2011, 05:23 PM
If the religious right had their way they would it would be very uncomfortable for everyone that they consider an undesirable eg minorities and nonbelievers. They wont admit to it but you and I both know that is their desire.

What do Christians have against minorities? I understand the nonbeliever line of thinking (which I think you are offbase). It is a Christians duty to witness to nonbelievers at all costs. They will be persecuted, rejected and at times killed for it. They are not here to force anyone to believe though.

AUTaxMan
09-21-2011, 05:24 PM
If the religious right had their way they would it would be very uncomfortable for everyone that they consider an undesirable eg minorities and nonbelievers. They wont admit to it but you and I both know that is their desire.

What exactly would they do that makes you so nervous?

ensbergcollector
09-21-2011, 05:56 PM
College and church are completely different. I can't believe we are even comparing the two. People deal with schools they don't agree with because they want the degree the school offers. It is also not simple or cheap to just change schools every time you want. People choose churches that most falls in line with their own beliefs. If they don't like something, they leave and choose one of the other 30 churches in the same 2 square miles.
Also, choosing to attend a church for 20 years under the same pastor who you listen to every sunday is in no way comparable to all christians must follow fallwell. If I attended fallwell's church I would have left after one sunday. If I stayed there, it would be safe for you to assume that I agreed with him. If I left, it would be safe to assume I didn't.

So, when someone stays at a church for 20 years and refers to the pastor as their spiritual advisor, it is a safe assumption that that person agrees with the pastor.

AUTaxMan
09-21-2011, 05:58 PM
I thought I heard it wasn't a Christian govt?? Libs having it both ways....nice.

Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

ensbergcollector
09-21-2011, 05:59 PM
If the religious right had their way they would it would be very uncomfortable for everyone that they consider an undesirable eg minorities and nonbelievers. They wont admit to it but you and I both know that is their desire.

I love all the mind readers we have here. I love all of the "I have no basis for my inflammatory statement but I know what millions of people are thinking because I am a mind reader, just trust me."

that said, if by religious right you mean the fallwells of the world then sure. If you are referring to anyone who is devoutly christian then I would argue you are way off base.

sanfran22
09-21-2011, 10:27 PM
Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.
GW's farewell.....nice...(no that's not bush libs):winking0071: so sad that we are so far away from this. Our countries moral fiber is attacked daily by those that claim we have no right i.e "those that would subvert". It also shows to me , while our system was not set up as a religious rule, it won't work without it. Same can be said for Capitalism Imo.

mrveggieman
09-22-2011, 09:49 AM
I love all the mind readers we have here. I love all of the "I have no basis for my inflammatory statement but I know what millions of people are thinking because I am a mind reader, just trust me."

that said, if by religious right you mean the fallwells of the world then sure. If you are referring to anyone who is devoutly christian then I would argue you are way off base.

That is exactly what I am referring to. Fallwell, Pat Robertson and all of their followers. Most people in the united states who claim a particular religion are christians and I would like to believe that the majority of them are good people. It's the right wing religious fanatics that I have a problem with.

mrveggieman
09-22-2011, 09:50 AM
What do Christians have against minorities? I understand the nonbeliever line of thinking (which I think you are offbase). It is a Christians duty to witness to nonbelievers at all costs. They will be persecuted, rejected and at times killed for it. They are not here to force anyone to believe though.


Again let me clarify not all christians are racists. I am referring to the right wing fanatics like fallwell, robertson and their thousands if not millions of followers.

mrveggieman
09-22-2011, 09:53 AM
What exactly would they do that makes you so nervous?


What country have you been living in for the past 50 years? Have you heard about fallwells segregationist sermons or billy grahm talking about going in to a hispanic country and mudering their leader. I wont even go into that idiot pat robertson.

AUTaxMan
09-22-2011, 09:55 AM
That is exactly what I am referring to. Fallwell, Pat Robertson and all of their followers. Most people in the united states who claim a particular religion are christians and I would like to believe that the majority of them are good people. It's the right wing religious fanatics that I have a problem with.

If that is true, then why do you bring up the kooky religious right fringe and seemingly paint all Christians with that brush every time Christianity is a topic here?

AUTaxMan
09-22-2011, 09:57 AM
Again let me clarify not all christians are racists. I am referring to the right wing fanatics like fallwell, robertson and their thousands if not millions of followers.

Have you seen anything quantifying the number of followers Pat Robertson has? Falwell has zero followers, since he is dead. True Christians follow Jesus, not preachers.

AUTaxMan
09-22-2011, 10:00 AM
What country have you been living in for the past 50 years? Have you heard about fallwells segregationist sermons or billy grahm talking about going in to a hispanic country and mudering their leader. I wont even go into that idiot pat robertson.

We might have a misunderstanding here. What exactly do you consider the "religious right"? Falwell, Robertson, and the like? I assumed you were speaking of Christians as a whole.

I would like to see the Graham allegation substantiated.

mrveggieman
09-22-2011, 10:02 AM
If that is true, then why do you bring up the kooky religious right fringe and seemingly paint all Christians with that brush every time Christianity is a topic here?


For the same reason some of you like to paint all muslims the same way because of a few of their fringe lunitics.

mrveggieman
09-22-2011, 10:03 AM
Have you seen anything quantifying the number of followers Pat Robertson has? Falwell has zero followers, since he is dead. True Christians follow Jesus, not preachers.


Yes I understand that fallwell is dead but his message of hatred and intollerance lives on through robertson and all of the other right wing religious extremists.

AUTaxMan
09-22-2011, 10:05 AM
For the same reason some of you like to paint all muslims the same way because of a few of their fringe lunitics.

This is a factually inaccurate statement, as I have repeatedly said the opposite on here many times. There is a difference between the Christian extreme and and Muslim political extreme. Not all Muslims are extremists, but many are, and in all nations ruled under Muslim governance, minorities and women are outwardly oppressed. Also, millions of Muslims would like to see Israel wiped off the map. This is also a fact. Again, not all Muslims subscribe to this line of thinking but more than a fringe portion of them do.

mrveggieman
09-22-2011, 10:12 AM
We might have a misunderstanding here. What exactly do you consider the "religious right"? Falwell, Robertson, and the like? I assumed you were speaking of Christians as a whole.

I would like to see the Graham allegation substantiated.


I do apologize it wasn't Billy Graham it was pat robertson who called for chavez's assasination.

http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200508220006

sanfran22
09-22-2011, 10:15 AM
We might have a misunderstanding here. What exactly do you consider the "religious right"? Falwell, Robertson, and the like? I assumed you were speaking of Christians as a whole.

I would like to see the Graham allegation substantiated.

Me too, never heard anything like that about Graham.....I would like to see what was meant by it. There are times when we probably need to take out other leaders. Should we have just let hitler go? Hussain? I'd put a heavy eye on Kim and Ajmadinewhatshisface too. Off topic but I found it kind of disturbing that Ol' whats his face could go and speak to our kids at Columbia but that Christian college in canada wouldn't allow Bush....hmmmmmm

AUTaxMan
09-22-2011, 10:15 AM
I do apologize it wasn't Billy Graham it was pat robertson who called for chavez's assasination.

http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200508220006

Everyone knows Robertson is a nutjob and not representative of Christianity. You need to let it go. The guy has been completely irrelevant for years.

mrveggieman
09-22-2011, 10:18 AM
Everyone knows Robertson is a nutjob and not representative of Christianity. You need to let it go. The guy has been completely irrelevant for years.


Ok I get it. Robertson's (who is a christian leader btw) views are even too extreme for your tastes so you dismiss him as a nutjob and tell me to let it go. However if 1 individual muslim out of a billion does something stupid you want to blame the entire religion. Thanks for clearing that up for the board.

mrveggieman
09-22-2011, 10:20 AM
Me too, never heard anything like that about Graham.....I would like to see what was meant by it. There are times when we probably need to take out other leaders. Should we have just let hitler go? Hussain? I'd put a heavy eye on Kim and Ajmadinewhatshisface too. Off topic but I found it kind of disturbing that Ol' whats his face could go and speak to our kids at Columbia but that Christian college in canada wouldn't allow Bush....hmmmmmm


Well at least one christian group got things right.

AUTaxMan
09-22-2011, 10:21 AM
Ok I get it. Robertson's (who is a christian leader btw) views are even too extreme for your tastes so you dismiss him as a nutjob and tell me to let it go. However if 1 individual muslim out of a billion does something stupid you want to blame the entire religion. Thanks for clearing that up for the board.

DO you just skip over my posts if they don't fit your perception of me?


This is a factually inaccurate statement, as I have repeatedly said the opposite on here many times. There is a difference between the Christian extreme and and Muslim political extreme. Not all Muslims are extremists, but many are, and in all nations ruled under Muslim governance, minorities and women are outwardly oppressed. Also, millions of Muslims would like to see Israel wiped off the map. This is also a fact. Again, not all Muslims subscribe to this line of thinking but more than a fringe portion of them do.

sanfran22
09-22-2011, 10:23 AM
Well at least one christian group got things right.

Yeah, it went right over your head, I figured it would....

sanfran22
09-22-2011, 10:30 AM
Ok I get it. Robertson's (who is a christian leader btw) views are even too extreme for your tastes so you dismiss him as a nutjob and tell me to let it go. However if 1 individual muslim out of a billion does something stupid you want to blame the entire religion. Thanks for clearing that up for the board.

If it were one out of a Billion, maybe. I see crazy things everyday that happen in the name of islam, I don't see that with any other religion.....You don't see whole oppressive Christian nations. Again, that's what you will get with a false religion. Nothing good can come of it. You need to realize that it's the religion, not the people. A lot, if not most, don't know any different or are so brainwashed into the culture.

mrveggieman
09-22-2011, 10:32 AM
DO you just skip over my posts if they don't fit your perception of me?


How about this. Adolph Hitler was a christian who lead nazi germany during the 1940s. He committed suicide after the war but he still has millions of followers today. Based on that one can safely assume that christanity is a dangerous religion follwed by racist extremists.

AUTaxMan
09-22-2011, 10:35 AM
How about this. Adolph Hitler was a christian who lead nazi germany during the 1940s. He committed suicide after the war but he still has millions of followers today. Based on that one can safely assume that christanity is a dangerous religion follwed by racist extremists.

Your logic does not compute because the assumption upon which you base your entire premise is erroneous. Bin Laden was not a one in a billion extremist. If you fail to acknowledge this fact, then there is no further point in having this discussion, and we can get back to Glenn Beck.

sanfran22
09-22-2011, 10:38 AM
How about this. Adolph Hitler was a christian who lead nazi germany during the 1940s. He committed suicide after the war but he still has millions of followers today. Based on that one can safely assume that christanity is a dangerous religion follwed by racist extremists.

Not only does it not compute, It's wrong....do you read about whom you speak???

"Hitler made it clear that he “hated Christianity” and was going to eliminate it when the war ended (see Kershaw, 2000). One reason Hitler “hated Christianity” was because he believed that “it had crippled everything noble about humanity” (quoted in Kershaw, 2000, p. 936).

In Hitler’s words “the heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity” (Hitler, 1953, p. 6). The Jesuits were “swine,” and all of Christianity was “Jewish Christianity” which was comparable with “Jewish Bolshevism.” Hitler concluded that both were evil and both had to be destroyed (Kershaw, 2000, pp. 330, 488). His reasoning was based on his belief that Christianity was an “illegitimate” Jewish child and, as a Jewish child, was swine like its parent that must be eradicated. Hitler considered Christianity the “invention of the Jew Saul” (Azar, 1990, p. 154)."

Star_Cards
09-22-2011, 10:48 AM
How about this. Adolph Hitler was a christian who lead nazi germany during the 1940s. He committed suicide after the war but he still has millions of followers today. Based on that one can safely assume that christanity is a dangerous religion follwed by racist extremists.

most people that fear all of islam and think they are all out to do harm to America will never understand this argument. They will typically try to talk about how this "guy" didn't really represent Christianity or which ever religion they follow. They can't grasp that there are extremist within every religion that are out to do harm and those extremists don't represent any religion as a whole. These evildoers may be doing these acts in accordance to what they think their god wants, but clearly they aren't the norm or we'd have a lot more conflicts between religious groups here in the US.

mrveggieman
09-22-2011, 11:00 AM
most people that fear all of islam and think they are all out to do harm to America will never understand this argument. They will typically try to talk about how this "guy" didn't really represent Christianity or which ever religion they follow. They can't grasp that there are extremist within every religion that are out to do harm and those extremists don't represent any religion as a whole. These evildoers may be doing these acts in accordance to what they think their god wants, but clearly they aren't the norm or we'd have a lot more conflicts between religious groups here in the US.


Church!! :cheer2:

AUTaxMan
09-22-2011, 11:01 AM
most people that fear all of islam and think they are all out to do harm to America will never understand this argument. They will typically try to talk about how this "guy" didn't really represent Christianity or which ever religion they follow. They can't grasp that there are extremist within every religion that are out to do harm and those extremists don't represent any religion as a whole. These evildoers may be doing these acts in accordance to what they think their god wants, but clearly they aren't the norm or we'd have a lot more conflicts between religious groups here in the US.

I think we all acknowledge this point, and I don't think anyone participating in this conversation fears all of Islam.

sanfran22
09-22-2011, 11:06 AM
most people that fear all of islam and think they are all out to do harm to America will never understand this argument. They will typically try to talk about how this "guy" didn't really represent Christianity or which ever religion they follow. They can't grasp that there are extremist within every religion that are out to do harm and those extremists don't represent any religion as a whole. These evildoers may be doing these acts in accordance to what they think their god wants, but clearly they aren't the norm or we'd have a lot more conflicts between religious groups here in the US.

A lot of misinformed people say Hitler was a Christian as well, I think by Hitlers statements you can reasonably conclude otherwise.... (that is if you are reasonable):sign0020:

Star_Cards
09-22-2011, 11:42 AM
A lot of misinformed people say Hitler was a Christian as well, I think by Hitlers statements you can reasonably conclude otherwise.... (that is if you are reasonable):sign0020:

yep. that's the point he was trying to make when bringing up hitler in the first place. I don't think any extremist that claims to use any religion to exterminate another or carry out evil acts in that religions name is typical of a religion.

I am very reasonable... at times. lol

sanfran22
09-22-2011, 11:48 AM
yep. that's the point he was trying to make when bringing up hitler in the first place. I don't think any extremist that claims to use any religion to exterminate another or carry out evil acts in that religions name is typical of a religion.

I am very reasonable... at times. lol
Lol, I guess the issue i have is that it's pretty well know that Hitler did not like Christianity. He was more into science and Darwinism. Someone like Bin-laden was know to be a muslim. I guess I don't see the correlation.....

Star_Cards
09-22-2011, 11:56 AM
Lol, I guess the issue i have is that it's pretty well know that Hitler did not like Christianity. He was more into science and Darwinism. Someone like Bin-laden was know to be a muslim. I guess I don't see the correlation.....

I'm not even talking about hitler and what his religious affiliations are. I'm talking about using an extremist to stereotype a religion as a whole. It's absurd in my opinion. That's why I said "guy" in my follow post.

sanfran22
09-22-2011, 11:58 AM
I'm not even talking about hitler and what his religious affiliations are. I'm talking about using an extremist to stereotype a religion as a whole. It's absurd in my opinion. That's why I said "guy" in my follow post.
Wasn't really in response to to what you said. It was more the original Hitler post did't match up... sorry to confuse.....

AUTaxMan
10-04-2011, 07:28 PM
It's as if he's telling them, "Hey, there's a Muslim conspiracy to take over the US". And these people believe this.


I never got around to responding to this. These videos are worth a watch.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/beck-special-see-who-is-pushing-caliphate-in-america-right-now/

ensbergcollector
10-04-2011, 08:11 PM
again, it is hard to argue the extremist angle when you have multiple countries who are apparently run by "extremists." I would never make the leap that since bin laden was muslim that all muslims are terrorists. But I can understand how people look at the 40+ countries that are hostile to christianity because of muslim leadership and say "how can you claim 40+ are not a fair accessment of a religion?"
I have stated numerous times and just want to state again, I do not think all muslims are evil, bad, or wrong. I am simply arguing that trying to compare christianity and islam using the "extremist" argument is not a good argument.

mrveggieman
10-05-2011, 09:18 AM
If I can throw this out there check out the wiki of the guy who murdered all of those kids in europe. He is a christian, hated muslims and was a tea party supporter. I'm just saying....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik

AUTaxMan
10-05-2011, 09:49 AM
If I can throw this out there check out the wiki of the guy who murdered all of those kids in europe. He is a christian, hated muslims and was a tea party supporter. I'm just saying....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik

Yeah, that's one guy. Nice try, but as ensberg said, you cannot compare radical muslims to radical christians because the numbers of the former dwarf the latter. Might as well compare radical muslims to radical atheists or radical wiccans. The radical muslims are organized, powerful, and great in number. The radical Christians are isolated individuals or family groups.

mrveggieman
10-05-2011, 10:17 AM
Yeah, that's one guy. Nice try, but as ensberg said, you cannot compare radical muslims to radical christians because the numbers of the former dwarf the latter. Might as well compare radical muslims to radical atheists or radical wiccans. The radical muslims are organized, powerful, and great in number. The radical Christians are isolated individuals or family groups.


Do a google search for racial hate groups. Not only will you find that they hate blacks and other minorities but here's a shocker a lot of them hate jews and muslims as well as claiming to be christian organizations. Yes they are out there despite the fact that you claim that they are not.

sanfran22
10-05-2011, 10:37 AM
If I can throw this out there check out the wiki of the guy who murdered all of those kids in europe. He is a christian, hated muslims and was a tea party supporter. I'm just saying....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik

Wrong again. Please read what the guy himself speaks, not what someone randomly puts on "wiki". You'll probably see a different picture. (well, you may not).

pghin08
10-05-2011, 10:45 AM
I never got around to responding to this. These videos are worth a watch.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/beck-special-see-who-is-pushing-caliphate-in-america-right-now/

I actually know a bit about this group from my counterterrorism studies in college, and I'm not trying to downplay their threat, because I think they're a dangerous group.

However, I disagree with their general assessment of the world. Let me break my thoughts down:

1. I think their view on the weakness of the Western world is fundamentally flawed. I don't know about you, but I don't see any semblance of a dramatic shift towards pro-Muslim sentiment in the West. Within our culture here, radical Muslim life often doesn't fit, nor is it used as a crutch for our nation's poor and our disenchanted (many people who deeply ascribe to religions seem to go through a period of turmoil). On a macro-level, I just don't see the US and other Western nations going through any sort of massive religious/cultural shift at this time.

2. The Arab Spring and other various youth (predominately) movements seem to actually hold Western truths and ideals. What we're seeing in Egypt, Syria, Libya and the works is not a fundamentalist Islamic revolution. These are young Middle Easterners who are beginning to be influenced by the heightened level of connectivity of the modern world. They recognize the Western World through things like TV and the internet, it's not abstract anymore. They can now develop their own worldviews in a manner that they couldn't do 25 years ago. To those who live in tyranny, expression is a powerful thing, and that's what we saw, particularly in Egypt. The vast majority of these people aren't interested in the rise of Islamic fundamentalism and the demise of the Western World (It's a bit hypocritical to get on Facebook and proclaim your hatred of the West and it's technologies); but rather, their interest lies in how they can co-exist with us.

Number two gets back to my fundamental school of thought. The Arab Spring is far less religious in nature than it is economic. These people are revolting against corrupt religious leaders who they feel have bankrupted their countries and directly lead to their own poverty, not because they have religious grievances with them.

So I guess the point I'm trying to make with this verbose post is that I recognize the existence of these groups (Hizb u-Tahrir in particular), but I won't overstate their importance, nor do I think their message is based in reality.

AUTaxMan
10-05-2011, 11:07 AM
I disagree here. The U.S. government and the democrats, progressives, communists, socialists, media (essentially, all of the leftists in this country) have bent over backwards to accommodate...

ensbergcollector
10-05-2011, 11:17 AM
If I can throw this out there check out the wiki of the guy who murdered all of those kids in europe. He is a christian, hated muslims and was a tea party supporter. I'm just saying....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik

when you can't win an argument, compare one guy to 40 countries, cause that makes sense.

pghin08
10-05-2011, 11:20 AM
I get so tired of this "the left are trying to let the Muslims take over". It's a joke. I must have Obama confused with another President who is decapitating extremist Muslim groups with drones and...

AUTaxMan
10-05-2011, 11:28 AM
I get so tired of this "the left are trying to let the Muslims take over". It's a joke. I must have Obama confused with another President who is decapitating extremist Muslim groups with drones and Navy SEAL raids. And as a Democrat, I usually don't spend my days persecuting Christians. Typical Fox News-esque school of thought. When Christians are forced to drink from different water fountains, then we'll talk. Otherwise, you're just blowing smoke.

Your thoughts on the Arab Spring make a bit more sense to me. Any time you have a massive political upheaval in a country, it becomes susceptible to extremism. This movement is still in the newborn stage, and we don't truly have any idea how it's going to turn out.

Is this particular movement gaining steam? Maybe. It depends on where you look and how you look. There are moderate Muslim groups "gaining steam" too, they're just not sexy enough for the media to gobble up. But the "one state solution" is nothing new. Radical Muslim groups have called for this for not only decades, but centuries. This is just another one of these groups. I'm not fundamentally disagreeing with you here. These groups should NOT be ignored. Just because they have yet to pose a violent threat to the West or the U.S. doesn't mean they won't in the future. However, am I going to go into a Glenn Beck induced tinfoil hat way of thought on these people? No.

I am not saying that the left is "trying" to let the Muslims take over. They are merely unintentionally (most of them at least) making their ability to do so easier.

I know that you are young and naive (I was at your age too), but as you grow older, you will see the clear evidence of the left's disdain for the Christian religion, because they see its principles as a threat to their agenda. These are not talking points. This is what I see.

Like I was saying in another thread, the American Revolution is the only significant revolution in history where the people who started it were the ones who finished it. The most organized group always comes out on top of revolutions, and most of the time with very bad consequences.

I am not asking people to be tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists. They just need to be educated on the reality of the threat that exists. Most people are not.

sanfran22
10-05-2011, 11:34 AM
I am not saying that the left is "trying" to let the Muslims take over. They are merely unintentionally (most of them at least) making their ability to do so easier.

I know that you are young and naive (I was at your age too), but as you grow older, you will see the clear evidence of the left's disdain for the Christian religion, because they see its principles as a threat to their agenda. These are not talking points. This is what I see.

Like I was saying in another thread, the American Revolution is the only significant revolution in history where the people who started it were the ones who finished it. The most organized group always comes out on top of revolutions, and most of the time with very bad consequences.

I am not asking people to be tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists. They just need to be educated on the reality of the threat that exists. Most people are not.

Thank you for saying what I've been trying to say but in a very to- the- point way.....:party0053:

pghin08
10-05-2011, 12:03 PM
I am not saying that the left is "trying" to let the Muslims take over. They are merely unintentionally (most of them at least) making their ability to do so easier.

I know that you are young and naive (I was at your age too), but as you grow older, you will see the clear evidence of the left's disdain for the Christian religion, because they see its principles as a threat to their agenda. These are not talking points. This is what I see.

Like I was saying in another thread, the American Revolution is the only significant revolution in history where the people who started it were the ones who finished it. The most organized group always comes out on top of revolutions, and most of the time with very bad consequences.

I am not asking people to be tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists. They just need to be educated on the reality of the threat that exists. Most people are not.

Please explain the bolded part.

And like I said, we're not too far off on the Arab revolutions. You're absolutely right, those who are organized come out on top. It's just too soon to judge that. We probably won't truly know the answer for decades.

I don't think you need to tell the general public at this point that Muslim extremist groups are scary. If you were alive in America for the last decade, you already think this.

Let me attempt to bring this full-circle. This thread was originally about Glenn Beck, so let me quote what I said about him before:


I used to tune into Beck's show at least once or twice a week when he was on CNN and Fox. I will say this about the man, he believes what he says. He's not the least bit disingenuous.

He is, however, a nutjob. He is Joseph McCarthy reincarnated. His fear of anything different than himself pervades his every thought and completely skews his worldview. Remember, this is once a guy who asked Keith Ellison, a Muslim Congressman (I'm paraphrasing here) "I like Muslims, but prove to me that you aren't working with our enemies". What Beck knows very well is what comments like that implies to his viewers. It's as if he's telling them, "Hey, there's a Muslim conspiracy to take over the US". And these people believe this.

And respect his message? This is a guy who once called President Obama a racist. If someone were to base-lessly say that about George Bush (oh, I don't know, like some guy named Kanye West), he would be vilified. Yet Beck gets away with it. He gets away with saying ridiculous things like comparing the youth camp in Norway where those terrible murders occurred to Hitler's Nazi Germany.

He's not without his counterparts. I throw people like Lawrence O'Donnell and Keith Olbermann in that camp, though I usually don't find their rhetoric as incendiary. These people are not newsmen, they simply spin news to fit their own agendas. The reason that Beck is dangerous, and I don't say that facetiously, I mean it; is because many people in our country turn to him as their main source of news. Beck's power outweighs Olbermann, O'Donnell, etc. because he has a far larger and more loyal audience. So when Beck says something, like it or not, it has ramifications.

The brilliant and reasonable conservative commentator David Frum has faced a storm of criticism in recent years for his views on Beck (Earlier this year, he actually called Beck a "circus act"). In response to this, a significant group of people go around saying that Frum is a fake conservative, predominately because he doesn't like Glenn Beck. This, of course, is baseless and ridiculous. Frum was a speechwriter under GWB, and has written many pro-conservative books (not to mention his unreal academic credentials). But because he was critical of Glenn Beck, he's a phony. THAT'S the power that Beck has. And it is unrivaled in today's media.

And before I get vilified on here, I'm NOT someone who rails against every talking head out there in the political world that doesn't agree with me. I'm just someone that happens to think that of those people, Glenn Beck is the most wildly misinformed and the most outlandish.


What we're talking about is classic Beck. Take a minor news story and convince your viewers that it is a full-blown crisis. Why does he do this? BECAUSE PEOPLE WATCH HIM. If Glenn Beck scares you, then you watch his show, because he makes you think he has the answers. He's an entertainer first, commentator second.