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mrveggieman
10-03-2011, 12:05 PM
Now before all of you religious fanboys come out and say that their religion is the true religion because XYZ holy book says that it is the one and only true religion and that all other religions are false I must remind you that every holy book says the exact same thing.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/reltrue.htm

Star_Cards
10-03-2011, 01:41 PM
the question is pretty much impossible to answer in my opinion.

sanfran22
10-03-2011, 01:43 PM
There is only one......I've hashed it out a bunch so that's all I need to say presently.

pghin08
10-03-2011, 01:55 PM
There is only one......I've hashed it out a bunch so that's all I need to say presently.

Everyone thinks theirs is "the only one"

habsheaven
10-03-2011, 02:09 PM
There is only one......I've hashed it out a bunch so that's all I need to say presently.

I'm glad you used that terminology. It represents the quality of the discussion rather well. :rolleyes:

duane1969
10-03-2011, 02:10 PM
The one true religion is the one that each individual follows. Arguing in favor of or against any particular one is pointless. That is an individual's choice, not a community decision.

sanfran22
10-03-2011, 02:26 PM
I'm glad you used that terminology. It represents the quality of the discussion rather well. :rolleyes:

Especially to a Canadian I would imagine.........:winking0071::party0048:

mrveggieman
10-03-2011, 03:28 PM
The one true religion is the one that each individual follows. Arguing in favor of or against any particular one is pointless. That is an individual's choice, not a community decision.

Church! :cheer2: And who said that conservatives can't make good points in these discussions? :winking0071:

AUTaxMan
10-03-2011, 05:11 PM
What is the point of this thread?

AUTaxMan
10-03-2011, 05:13 PM
The one true religion is the one that each individual follows. Arguing in favor of or against any particular one is pointless. That is an individual's choice, not a community decision.

If this is what you believe, there is no point in subscribing to any religion.

sanfran22
10-03-2011, 05:20 PM
What is the point of this thread?

Lol, I can guess.......Just like a couple other threads I've see pop up..........:boxing:

andrewhoya
10-03-2011, 05:28 PM
Lol, I can guess.......Just like a couple other threads I've see pop up..........:boxing:

SCF needs a 'high five' smiley.

Star_Cards
10-03-2011, 05:31 PM
If this is what you believe, there is no point in subscribing to any religion.

I'm having trouble following this comment. Are you saying that if he thinks religion is up to an individual then they shouldn't follow a religion? Is there no self interpretation in religion? Are you only allowed to believe what someone within the church tells you is the way?

Star_Cards
10-03-2011, 05:32 PM
What is the point of this thread?

my guess is that it's a thread to discuss what people believe to be the one true religion and if it's possible to even say one is the true religion.

Star_Cards
10-03-2011, 05:33 PM
Lol, I can guess.......Just like a couple other threads I've see pop up..........:boxing:

not all topics of discussion where there are differentiating points of view has the end result of fighting.

AUTaxMan
10-03-2011, 05:39 PM
I'm having trouble following this comment. Are you saying that if he thinks religion is up to an individual then they shouldn't follow a religion? Is there no self interpretation in religion? Are you only allowed to believe what someone within the church tells you is the way?

I am a Christian. If I do not believe that Christianity is the only true religion (that is, that eternal life can only be gained by accepting Jesus as your personal savior), then Christianity has no meaning whatsoever, because Jesus taught that the only way to God was through him.

sanfran22
10-03-2011, 05:40 PM
I am a Christian. If I do not believe that Christianity is the only true religion (that is, that eternal life can only be gained by accepting Jesus as your personal savior), then Christianity has no meaning whatsoever, because Jesus taught that the only way to God was through him.

And there it is...........:humble:

ensbergcollector
10-03-2011, 06:07 PM
regardless of what you feel is the one true religion, if you take the opinion that it is all up to the individual then all religion loses is merit. While many fights start because people believe in their own and no one else's, if we all thought there was no real religion, just what people wanted, then there is no point of religion.

habsheaven
10-03-2011, 08:02 PM
regardless of what you feel is the one true religion, if you take the opinion that it is all up to the individual then all religion loses is merit. While many fights start because people believe in their own and no one else's, if we all thought there was no real religion, just what people wanted, then there is no point of religion.

Exactly!!! All religion does lose its merit because no one can agree on which is the true religion. If ANY religion were TRUE, there would not be a need to say so. It would just be. The fact that there are 10,000 religions tells anyone thinking about the subject logically that there is NO TRUE RELIGION.

AUTaxMan
10-03-2011, 08:05 PM
Exactly!!! All religion does lose its merit because no one can agree on which is the true religion. If ANY religion were TRUE, there would not be a need to say so. It would just be. The fact that there are 10,000 religions tells anyone thinking about the subject logically that there is NO TRUE RELIGION.

The fact that there are 10,000 wrong answers and 1 right answer to a question does not mean that the right answer is wrong.

Hilfiger1975
10-03-2011, 08:06 PM
Scientology? LOL?

Hilfiger1975
10-03-2011, 08:07 PM
the fact that there are 10,000 wrong answers and 1 right answer to a question does not mean that the right answer is wrong.
+1

habsheaven
10-03-2011, 08:39 PM
The fact that there are 10,000 wrong answers and 1 right answer to a question does not mean that the right answer is wrong.

No it doesn't. The fact that you cannot PROVE your 1 answer is RIGHT and you cannot PROVE that the other 10,000 are WRONG, makes the probabilility that YOU are RIGHT highly UNLIKELY.

habsheaven
10-03-2011, 08:41 PM
Scientology? LOL?

What causes you to laugh about Scientology?

gatorboymike
10-03-2011, 08:56 PM
Arguing over who has the true religion is like arguing over whose Dungeons & Dragons character would win in a fight.

That being said, religions are obligated to claim that they are true and all others are false. Otherwise, what incentive is there to join them? All the world's major religions make exclusive claims to truth, and all the ones that don't, all the religions that say, "Hey, it's all good! There's a little truth in all of them!" are negligible by comparison and utterly reviled by all the major religions.

Of course, that doesn't mean we're obligated to listen to any of them. People go around saying, "Well of course I believe my religion is the only true one! Why would I belong to it if I didn't believe that?" as if that somehow gets them off the hook for the poor character they display by doing so. What you say to that is not, "Gee, uh, I guess that makes sense, uh hyuck!" but rather "Oh yeah, well MY religion grants me +5 dexterity and +10 charisma, so HAH!"

ensbergcollector
10-03-2011, 09:23 PM
ok, a couple of things. The fact that there are numerous religions claiming to be the one true religion in no way negates the possibility of a true religion. That is horrible logic. So any question that gets multiple answers automatically means there are no right answers? Come on now.

secondly, while there may be 10,000 variations out there, there are realistically less than 10 out there claiming to be the truth.

third, anyone who asks for proof from religion, and bases their opposition to religion on the lack thereof is a completely bias individual who is not genuinely seeking but rather looking for a chance to attack religion. Religion openly states it is a faith based group that does not offer proof. So, to ask for proof from a group that openly states it does not offer proof is antagonistic at best. Feel free to say you disagree, feel free to say that for you to believe, it would take proof. But to negate all religion and all religious people on the lack of proof is ridiculous.
And GBM - you show more poor character than anyone else that has posted on this forum in the years I have been here so feel free to share your rationale for that. Does your lack of religion give you +5 intelligence and +10 right to be a hate monger?

habsheaven
10-03-2011, 09:51 PM
ok, a couple of things. The fact that there are numerous religions claiming to be the one true religion in no way negates the possibility of a true religion. That is horrible logic. So any question that gets multiple answers automatically means there are no right answers? Come on now.

secondly, while there may be 10,000 variations out there, there are realistically less than 10 out there claiming to be the truth.

third, anyone who asks for proof from religion, and bases their opposition to religion on the lack thereof is a completely bias individual who is not genuinely seeking but rather looking for a chance to attack religion. Religion openly states it is a faith based group that does not offer proof. So, to ask for proof from a group that openly states it does not offer proof is antagonistic at best. Feel free to say you disagree, feel free to say that for you to believe, it would take proof. But to negate all religion and all religious people on the lack of proof is ridiculous.
And GBM - you show more poor character than anyone else that has posted on this forum in the years I have been here so feel free to share your rationale for that. Does your lack of religion give you +5 intelligence and +10 right to be a hate monger?

Why is asking for PROOF an ATTACK? Talk about being BIASED!! If you are going to claim your religion is the TRUE religion it is not off-base to ask for proof. How is a non-religious person looking for the TRUTH going to decide where the TRUTH lies if none of the religions can provide proof? Where else in life do we allow groups to make grandiose claims without any expectation to back them up?

Hilfiger1975
10-03-2011, 09:57 PM
Arguing over who has the true religion is like arguing over whose Dungeons & Dragons character would win in a fight.

That being said, religions are obligated to claim that they are true and all others are false. Otherwise, what incentive is there to join them? All the world's major religions make exclusive claims to truth, and all the ones that don't, all the religions that say, "Hey, it's all good! There's a little truth in all of them!" are negligible by comparison and utterly reviled by all the major religions.

Of course, that doesn't mean we're obligated to listen to any of them. People go around saying, "Well of course I believe my religion is the only true one! Why would I belong to it if I didn't believe that?" as if that somehow gets them off the hook for the poor character they display by doing so. What you say to that is not, "Gee, uh, I guess that makes sense, uh hyuck!" but rather "Oh yeah, well MY religion grants me +5 dexterity and +10 charisma, so HAH!"
LOL! Thank god for 3rd edition...:winking0071:

Hilfiger1975
10-03-2011, 10:00 PM
What causes you to laugh about Scientology?
Define good and by who's opinion?

habsheaven
10-03-2011, 10:25 PM
Define good and by who's opinion?

What???

gatorboymike
10-03-2011, 11:32 PM
third, anyone who asks for proof from religion, and bases their opposition to religion on the lack thereof is a completely bias individual who is not genuinely seeking but rather looking for a chance to attack religion. Religion openly states it is a faith based group that does not offer proof. So, to ask for proof from a group that openly states it does not offer proof is antagonistic at best. Feel free to say you disagree, feel free to say that for you to believe, it would take proof. But to negate all religion and all religious people on the lack of proof is ridiculous.

Boy, I hope you don't operate like that in all areas of life. If you did you'd quickly see how unwise it is. Picture this situation: you get accused of committing a murder you did not commit. The prosecution has no evidence of your guilt, but they insist you are guilty nonetheless. You complain that the trial is bogus because they have no proof that you are guilty. The prosecution feigns shock and outrage, calling you dishonest and biased and says you're not genuinely seeking justice but are just looking for a chance to attack the legal system. Surely you see the problem here.

But you think it's perfectly reasonable to operate like that in the area of religion. This is a blatant special pleading fallacy. You want to claim that religion deserves special privilege and freedom from backing up its claims because it's special, and superior to all other institutions. You are absolutely, 100% wrong.

Religion makes truth claims. At least, the 10 of the 10,000 to which you referred, and of which your religion is one, make truth claims. You claim that it is objectively true that your personal god exists, that your holy book is an accurate account of his character, and a reliable means of determining his intent. You have absolutely nothing substantial to back this up. It is not only reasonable, but absolutely necessary, for us to scrutinize and criticize these claims, because you are asking us to base our entire understanding of the world and our every action upon them. You say you do not offer proof as if that were some kind of redeeming factor. It is the exact opposite of a redeeming factor. You make claims without evidence, and then you make demands without reason. You accuse us of being antagonistic, well I say that antagonism is justified and well-deserved. But that accusation is a red herring anyway. The real reason you're so up in arms about supposed attacks on and antagonism against your religion is precisely because you have no proof. You demand special privilege for your religion that you would not extend to anyone else's religion or any other institution precisely because your religion is brittle and fragile and can't stand up to criticism.


And GBM - you show more poor character than anyone else that has posted on this forum in the years I have been here so feel free to share your rationale for that. Does your lack of religion give you +5 intelligence and +10 right to be a hate monger?

Way to show that patent-pending "Christian Love™." I'm willing to bet your appraisal of my character is highly misinformed, seeing as how you, like most theists, are a master of projection. You accuse me of being guilty of things that you yourself are guilty of all the time, such as the time you said I just want everyone to take my word for it and not have to back up what I say. Then you go an make a post like this where you do that very thing. How dare we ask you for proof, and so forth. I know exactly where this comes from: "Well, the bottom line is that Christians are good and atheists are bad! So, for any wrong thing Christians are guilty of, atheists must be guilty of it too! And not only that, but atheists must be MORE guilty of it than Christians are!"

Sorry if you find demands for evidence of your unreasonable claims to be so condescending and hateful. But you know, of the two of us, only one believes that the other is deserving of an eternity of incomprehensibly horrible agony and torture in the afterlife. I don't think you can get more condescending and hateful than that.

(Single-line response consisting of an insult, reflexive blanket dismissal of everything I said and refusal to address any of my points in 5...4...3...)

TheTGB
10-04-2011, 01:45 AM
If you believe your religion is the one true religion, I need to see some sources to back it up. Links?

And I will not accept a holy book as evidence as there are tons of holy books that have this written in them.

theonedru
10-04-2011, 03:18 AM
Well it cannot be Christianity, Islam or Judaism since they are all newer versions of more ancient religions.... You need to trace the major religions to see if/where they come together and then trace that point back. The question itself is pretty much answerable.

mrveggieman
10-04-2011, 09:15 AM
Let me throw this question to all the christians out there. If any non christian wants to chime in feel free as well. Let's assume for the sake of argument that christanity is the true religion and all other religions are false and are the religions of satan. There are may different varations of christanity and all of them go by the bible. How do we know that YOUR version of is the true religion and all other versions of christanity are incorrect?

AUTaxMan
10-04-2011, 10:55 AM
Let me throw this question to all the christians out there. If any non christian wants to chime in feel free as well. Let's assume for the sake of argument that christanity is the true religion and all other religions are false and are the religions of satan. There are may different varations of christanity and all of them go by the bible. How do we know that YOUR version of is the true religion and all other versions of christanity are incorrect?

The fundamental points of Christianity are that Jesus was the son of God, died for our sins, and was resurrected in order that we may have eternal life. If you believe in that and in the teachings of Jesus, the particular rites or interpretations of one denomination over another are for the most part personal preference in my opinion. I'm sure someone can come up with some exceptions, but that's the short answer.

sanfran22
10-04-2011, 11:02 AM
The fundamental points of Christianity are that Jesus was the son of God, died for our sins, and was resurrected in order that we may have eternal life. If you believe in that and in the teachings of Jesus, the particular rites or interpretations of one denomination over another are for the most part personal preference in my opinion. I'm sure someone can come up with some exceptions, but that's the short answer.

There are some churches that go against the Word directly, but alot of denominations are just preference. So I'd agree with ya for the most part.
I'll put it this way. I don't believe Catholicism is a true form of Christianity as they have so much that is in direct conflict with the Bible. That being said, I do believe there are Christians who go to Catholic churches and for one reason or another remain there.( at some point I would think they would see the flaws)...

ensbergcollector
10-04-2011, 11:13 AM
Boy, I hope you don't operate like that in all areas of life. If you did you'd quickly see how unwise it is. Picture this situation: you get accused of committing a murder you did not commit. The prosecution has no evidence of your guilt, but they insist you are guilty nonetheless. You complain that the trial is bogus because they have no proof that you are guilty. The prosecution feigns shock and outrage, calling you dishonest and biased and says you're not genuinely seeking justice but are just looking for a chance to attack the legal system. Surely you see the problem here.

But you think it's perfectly reasonable to operate like that in the area of religion. This is a blatant special pleading fallacy. You want to claim that religion deserves special privilege and freedom from backing up its claims because it's special, and superior to all other institutions. You are absolutely, 100% wrong.

Religion makes truth claims. At least, the 10 of the 10,000 to which you referred, and of which your religion is one, make truth claims. You claim that it is objectively true that your personal god exists, that your holy book is an accurate account of his character, and a reliable means of determining his intent. You have absolutely nothing substantial to back this up. It is not only reasonable, but absolutely necessary, for us to scrutinize and criticize these claims, because you are asking us to base our entire understanding of the world and our every action upon them. You say you do not offer proof as if that were some kind of redeeming factor. It is the exact opposite of a redeeming factor. You make claims without evidence, and then you make demands without reason. You accuse us of being antagonistic, well I say that antagonism is justified and well-deserved. But that accusation is a red herring anyway. The real reason you're so up in arms about supposed attacks on and antagonism against your religion is precisely because you have no proof. You demand special privilege for your religion that you would not extend to anyone else's religion or any other institution precisely because your religion is brittle and fragile and can't stand up to criticism.



Way to show that patent-pending "Christian Love™." I'm willing to bet your appraisal of my character is highly misinformed, seeing as how you, like most theists, are a master of projection. You accuse me of being guilty of things that you yourself are guilty of all the time, such as the time you said I just want everyone to take my word for it and not have to back up what I say. Then you go an make a post like this where you do that very thing. How dare we ask you for proof, and so forth. I know exactly where this comes from: "Well, the bottom line is that Christians are good and atheists are bad! So, for any wrong thing Christians are guilty of, atheists must be guilty of it too! And not only that, but atheists must be MORE guilty of it than Christians are!"

Sorry if you find demands for evidence of your unreasonable claims to be so condescending and hateful. But you know, of the two of us, only one believes that the other is deserving of an eternity of incomprehensibly horrible agony and torture in the afterlife. I don't think you can get more condescending and hateful than that.

(Single-line response consisting of an insult, reflexive blanket dismissal of everything I said and refusal to address any of my points in 5...4...3...)

ok, i'll bite. First of all, I understand your point of my proof comment and I understand it wouldn't work if all of life was lived that way. However, I have not said that religion deserves special freedom because it is special or superior. I have claimed that you are asking for proof from an organization that readily says it offers no proof. Christianity is up front that it requires faith to believe and if that isn't good enough for someone then ok. In 3 years I have never attacked you for not believing. I understand why many don't.

As for your last paragraph, me commenting on your poor character in no way goes against christian values. You have spent three years spewing hatred toward anything religious. Not just disagreeing but hatred. So no, my opinion is not projection or my own shortcomings or a highly misinformed opinion of yours. Feel free to review my posts and yours for the last 3 years. I think three years worth of posts is more than enough to make a claim about your character. I did not judge you, say you are going to hell, or otherwise attack you other than to say you are filled with hate toward christianity, which you yourself have admitted on these boards numerous times so in fact, my comment was factual.
And, just for clarification, the request for proof is not in and of itself hateful or attacking. I have had that conversation with numerous people who are genuinely curious and want to know. You don't. You want a chance to attack and be hateful. Anyone who has followed your posts since you got here knows that to be true so please don't start trying the poor downtrodden atheist card again.

mrveggieman
10-04-2011, 11:39 AM
There are some churches that go against the Word directly, but alot of denominations are just preference. So I'd agree with ya for the most part.
I'll put it this way. I don't believe Catholicism is a true form of Christianity as they have so much that is in direct conflict with the Bible. That being said, I do believe there are Christians who go to Catholic churches and for one reason or another remain there.( at some point I would think they would see the flaws)...


I know catholics that would disagree wholehartedely with you. So what makes a catholic not a real christian in your book?

sanfran22
10-04-2011, 11:42 AM
I know catholics that would disagree wholehartedely with you. So what makes a catholic not a real christian in your book?

Did you misread? It's not the catholics per say as it is the catholic church. They do not follow the Bible. There can be Christians in the Catholic church for sure, but the Catholic church i would not call Christian.....

mrveggieman
10-04-2011, 11:50 AM
Did you misread? It's not the catholics per say as it is the catholic church. They do not follow the Bible. There can be Christians in the Catholic church for sure, but the Catholic church i would not call Christian.....


No I did not. I am asking you to explain what is it about the catholic church that you feel that they do that goes against the bible? Before I do that need I remind you that catholics along with any other major religion that follows the bible or any other holy book for that matter will claim that what they are doing is correct and that all others are incorrect.

sanfran22
10-04-2011, 11:53 AM
No I did not. I am asking you to explain what is it about catholics that you feel that they do that goes against the bible? Before I do that need I remind you that catholics along with any other major religion that follows the bible will claim that what they are doing is correct and that all others are incorrect.

I'm going to link you to a site that explains it to the T. It's easier then typing but is exactly what is wrong....
http://carm.org/roman-catholicism

I would love for you to nose around that site and come to your own conclusions about many things that you say on this forum....

AUTaxMan
10-04-2011, 12:31 PM
Note that there are also major differences in denominations among the Catholic church as well.

mrveggieman
10-04-2011, 12:47 PM
I'm going to link you to a site that explains it to the T. It's easier then typing but is exactly what is wrong....
http://carm.org/roman-catholicism

I would love for you to nose around that site and come to your own conclusions about many things that you say on this forum....

I'm actually reading over the website as I write this. I will be honest I like the way that he writes most of this stuff on there. He goes in to explain what each religion stands for in an objective and unbiased view. He then goes into why each religion is wrong. He is open to admitting that he is wrong and he invites anyone to write an to provide proof on while he may be incorrect. However it goes back to the beginning of this discussion where he uses bible verses to explain why he is correct. Again anyone can quote from any holy book to show how their views are right and how all else are wrong just choose your favorite (bible, koran, book of morman, etc). I will go a head and quote something ironic that I read on the site:

If someone says, "I don't care what evidence you show me, I will always believe," then that person's faith is not rooted in reality.

A lot of religious fanboys from all religions believe the exact same thing. SMH

Covet
10-04-2011, 02:15 PM
Everyone who collects is an idol worshipper. :smokin:

mrveggieman
10-04-2011, 02:20 PM
If that is true then I am going to beg for forgiveness because I am guilty as charged.

gatorboymike
10-04-2011, 05:15 PM
Maybe you didn't say exactly that, but your comrades in arms do. Of course, that doesn't stop them from contradicting themselves by offering up "proof" that is no such thing when they think they have...

otsegoflake
10-04-2011, 05:20 PM
I don't know. I've never died. At least, I don't think I have.

Hilfiger1975
10-04-2011, 05:26 PM
All religions are man made. I don't trust any of them...

AUTaxMan
10-04-2011, 05:27 PM
You're right, I'll reserve that until President Rick Perry has his secret gestapo police dragging me out of my home in the middle of the night with a black bag over my head and 100 cc of paralytic drugs in my system, for not belonging to his religion, while people like you stand on the sidewalk watching, pointing, laughing and eating popcorn.

???

Star_Cards
10-04-2011, 05:32 PM
regardless of what you feel is the one true religion, if you take the opinion that it is all up to the individual then all religion loses is merit. While many fights start because people believe in their own and no one else's, if we all thought there was no real religion, just what people wanted, then there is no point of religion.

I get what you are saying, but so many parts of so many religions are left up to interpretation. There are so many different sects of belief within all of the major religions. How can you know what is the one true way? By the way, this is one of my major issues with religion as a whole. Seems like even the ones that have been around a long time in terms of written history have so many different groups under the main umbrella that believe and teach different ideals.

AUTaxMan
10-04-2011, 06:10 PM
I'm actually reading over the website as I write this. I will be honest I like the way that he writes most of this stuff on there. He goes in to explain what each religion stands for in an objective and unbiased view. He then goes into why each religion is wrong. He is open to admitting that he is wrong and he invites anyone to write an to provide proof on while he may be incorrect. However it goes back to the beginning of this discussion where he uses bible verses to explain why he is correct. Again anyone can quote from any holy book to show how their views are right and how all else are wrong just choose your favorite (bible, koran, book of morman, etc). I will go a head and quote something ironic that I read on the site:

If someone says, "I don't care what evidence you show me, I will always believe," then that person's faith is not rooted in reality.

A lot of religious fanboys from all religions believe the exact same thing. SMH

Thoughts on this?

The Mathematical Odds of Jesus Fulfilling Prophecy

"The following probabilities are taken from Peter Stoner in Science Speaks (Moody Press, 1963) to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability. Stoner says that by using the modern science of probability in reference to eight prophecies, ‘we find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 10^17." That would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. In order to help us comprehend this staggering probability, Stoner illustrates it by supposing that "we take 10^17 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They will cover all of the state two feet deep. Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one? Just the same chance that the prophets would have had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man."

Stoner considers 48 prophecies and says, "We find the chance that any one man fulfilled all 48 prophecies to be 1 in 10^157, or 1 in 10,00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000, 000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0 000,000,000."

The estimated number of electrons in the universe is around 10^79. It should be quite evident that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies by accident. He was who He said He was: the only way (John 14:6).

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/radio034.htm

gatorboymike
10-04-2011, 06:31 PM
"Fulfilled prophecy" is a load of nonsense. You might as well say Harry Potter is divinely inspired because book #5 said Harry and Lord Voldemort would duel to the death, and they actually do in book #7.

theonedru
10-04-2011, 06:41 PM
man how fast this thread has fallen off track.... Some people need to learn to just stay away from such topics if they cannot adhere to a little common sense

andrewhoya
10-04-2011, 06:51 PM
man how fast this thread has fallen off track.... Some people need to learn to just stay away from such topics if they cannot adhere to a little common sense

Common sense??? In the P/R forum?!
:boxing:

theonedru
10-04-2011, 07:09 PM
Common sense??? In the P/R forum?!
:boxing:

So true.. Thank the Gods I didn't bring up the words logical discussion. But seriously this would have been a great topic if people actually used tried to be rational in their arguments or persuasions. Instead people throw stuff in to just rile people up and throw stuff off topic.

AUTaxMan
10-04-2011, 07:14 PM
So true.. Thank the Gods I didn't bring up the words logical discussion. But seriously this would have been a great topic if people actually used tried to be rational in their arguments or persuasions. Instead people throw stuff in to just rile people up and throw stuff off topic.

Well let's get back to logical discussion then.

theonedru
10-04-2011, 07:24 PM
Well let's get back to logical discussion then.

I agree. i will restart by saying it cannot be any of the current big 3 (Christianity, Judaism or Islam) since they all come out of more ancient religions. As such you would have to look at the more ancient beliefs, maybe even something that may n longer be practiced. Like I said earlier you might have to search back thru the big religions of today, find their commonalities and ry and trace them back to a common point in time and search for older beliefs that held those and start tracing back again.

andrewhoya
10-04-2011, 07:26 PM
I agree. i will restart by saying it cannot be any of the current big 3 (Christianity, Judaism or Islam) since they all come out of more ancient religions. As such you would have to look at the more ancient beliefs, maybe even something that may n longer be practiced. Like I said earlier you might have to search back thru the big religions of today, find their commonalities and ry and trace them back to a common point in time and search for older beliefs that held those and start tracing back again.

Think you screwed that one up. Judaism was the world's first monotheistic religion.

habsheaven
10-04-2011, 07:30 PM
"Fulfilled prophecy" is a load of nonsense. You might as well say Harry Potter is divinely inspired because book #5 said Harry and Lord Voldemort would duel to the death, and they actually do in book #7.

Will you stop trying to ruin their "magic" trick. You take all the fun out of it. :golf:

AUTaxMan
10-04-2011, 07:30 PM
I agree. i will restart by saying it cannot be any of the current big 3 (Christianity, Judaism or Islam) since they all come out of more ancient religions. As such you would have to look at the more ancient beliefs, maybe even something that may n longer be practiced. Like I said earlier you might have to search back thru the big religions of today, find their commonalities and ry and trace them back to a common point in time and search for older beliefs that held those and start tracing back again.

What do the teachings of Jesus have to do with ancient religion?

andrewhoya
10-04-2011, 07:31 PM
What do the teachings of Jesus have to do with ancient religion?

Thoughts and ideas of Christianity stemmed from other religions.

Covet
10-04-2011, 07:32 PM
Which is the oldest religion?

andrewhoya
10-04-2011, 07:34 PM
Which is the oldest religion?

Many people early on in Mesopotamia worshiped gods, but there is not a name for it besides 'gods'. I believe Judaism is the first one with a name.

theonedru
10-04-2011, 07:34 PM
Think you screwed that one up. Judaism was the world's first monotheistic religion.

Early Judaism worshipped multiple gods. One of these gods was known as Ba’al, and was generally thought-of as a ‘statue god’ with certain limitations on his power. The other primary deity was called YHWH (or Yahweh) and enjoyed a much more mysterious and illusive reputation.

andrewhoya
10-04-2011, 07:35 PM
Early Judaism worshipped multiple gods. One of these gods was known as Ba’al, and was generally thought-of as a ‘statue god’ with certain limitations on his power. The other primary deity was called YHWH (or Yahweh) and enjoyed a much more mysterious and illusive reputation.

According to the history book I am looking at AWS, it is considered monotheistic.

Covet
10-04-2011, 07:38 PM
Many people early on in Mesopotamia worshiped gods, but there is not a name for it besides 'gods'. I believe Judaism is the first one with a name.

It wasn't Hinduism?

AUTaxMan
10-04-2011, 07:38 PM
Early Judaism worshipped multiple gods. One of these gods was known as Ba’al, and was generally thought-of as a ‘statue god’ with certain limitations on his power. The other primary deity was called YHWH (or Yahweh) and enjoyed a much more mysterious and illusive reputation.

Baal was a false god created by people. True Judaism has always been a monotheistic religion. Those worshiping Baal were not practicing Judaism. You should also use better sources than free, authorless essays found on the interwebs.

AUTaxMan
10-04-2011, 07:39 PM
Thoughts and ideas of Christianity stemmed from other religions.

You need to be a little more specific.

andrewhoya
10-04-2011, 07:51 PM
It wasn't Hinduism?

No. Hinduism developed much later in the Indian Empire (I believe during the Gupta).

andrewhoya
10-04-2011, 07:52 PM
You need to be a little more specific.

In what ways?

AUTaxMan
10-04-2011, 08:02 PM
In what ways?

The proposition was that Christianity cannot be the one true religion because it "come[s] out of more ancient religions."

I responded with the question of what does that have to do with the teachings of Jesus (since Christianity is based on Jesus's teachings, and not on the old Jewish law).

You responded with the general statement that "Thoughts and ideas of Christianity stemmed from other religions," which is pretty much what theonedru originally stated.

So, please be more specific with respect to what ties Christianity has to older religions and if it does, why that discredits Christianity as being the one true faith.

chekers
10-04-2011, 08:17 PM
Everyone who collects is an idol worshipper. :smokin:
That's only true if you honor your collection more then God.

andrewhoya
10-04-2011, 08:20 PM
The proposition was that Christianity cannot be the one true religion because it "come[s] out of more ancient religions."

I responded with the question of what does that have to do with the teachings of Jesus (since Christianity is based on Jesus's teachings, and not on the old Jewish law).

You responded with the general statement that "Thoughts and ideas of Christianity stemmed from other religions," which is pretty much what theonedru originally stated.

So, please be more specific with respect to what ties Christianity has to older religions and if it does, why that discredits Christianity as being the one true faith.

TBH, I nearly fell asleep when I was taught this in each of the past two years. Not my cup of tea.

But I know that basic ideas were taken from Judaism- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_Judaism

AUTaxMan
10-04-2011, 08:29 PM
TBH, I nearly fell asleep when I was taught this in each of the past two years. Not my cup of tea.

But I know that basic ideas were taken from Judaism- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_Judaism

Of course there were some basic principles taken from Judaism, since Christianity sprang from Judaism; but aside from that, as we all know, the religion completely diverges from the Jewish faith, particularly with respect to the religion's most fundamental points. Because of this stark divergence, the original proposition is fallible.

andrewhoya
10-04-2011, 08:35 PM
Of course there were some basic principles taken from Judaism, since Christianity sprang from Judaism; but aside from that, as we all know, the religion completely diverges from the Jewish faith, particularly with respect to the religion's most fundamental points. Because of this stark divergence, the original proposition is fallible.

You asked what ties Christianity had with Judaism, so I gave you the link.

I'm Christian, but if Christianity was the true faith then wouldn't it have popped up before Judaism?

I also believe that there is more than one god and they each control their own religion. Allah, the Buddha, etc.

ensbergcollector
10-04-2011, 09:04 PM
You asked what ties Christianity had with Judaism, so I gave you the link.

I'm Christian, but if Christianity was the true faith then wouldn't it have popped up before Judaism?

I also believe that there is more than one god and they each control their own religion. Allah, the Buddha, etc.

just a question. in order to be a christian, you agree that jesus was the son of God and is the only way to God. How can you believe that there is more than one god and they each control there own religion?

andrewhoya
10-04-2011, 09:09 PM
just a question. in order to be a christian, you agree that jesus was the son of God and is the only way to God. How can you believe that there is more than one god and they each control there own religion?

Weird, I know. Just my own belief. I don't agree with everything Christianity says but most of it, so I call myself a Christian.

ensbergcollector
10-04-2011, 09:10 PM
GBM - I have never presumed to know your beliefs based on what your "comrades in arms" in the atheist community have said. I have never assumed the worst about you because of how other atheists have acted or spoken. Therefore, please allow me the same respect. All of your negative comments and attitudes have been based on some "evil christian" that in your mind represents all christians.

and do you realize that your comments about gestapo police, etc. only cause people to negate your comments. We might disagree about most everything but you are highly intelligent and capable to rational thought.

theonedru
10-04-2011, 09:40 PM
Baal was a false god created by people. True Judaism has always been a monotheistic religion. Those worshiping Baal were not practicing Judaism. You should also use better sources than free, authorless essays found on the interwebs.

But who is to say whether it is a true or false god if a group of people believed in it they believed in it, much like Jesus or Zoroaster Buhddah or?....

theonedru
10-04-2011, 09:50 PM
The proposition was that Christianity cannot be the one true religion because it "come[s] out of more ancient religions."

I responded with the question of what does that have to do with the teachings of Jesus (since Christianity is based on Jesus's teachings, and not on the old Jewish law).

You responded with the general statement that "Thoughts and ideas of Christianity stemmed from other religions," which is pretty much what theonedru originally stated.

So, please be more specific with respect to what ties Christianity has to older religions and if it does, why that discredits Christianity as being the one true faith.

Would Christianity not be more of a sect or cult of Judaism since they worshiped a Jew (not God but Jesus) who followed Jewish law and tradition. And since this world was around alot longer than Jesus or Christianity its too new to be able to lay claim to the one true religion.

theonedru
10-04-2011, 09:51 PM
We need to figure which is the oldest known formed religion and go from there.

andrewhoya
10-04-2011, 10:15 PM
We need to figure which is the oldest known formed religion and go from there.

Depends on your definition of religion.

duane1969
10-04-2011, 10:40 PM
Church! :cheer2: And who said that conservatives can't make good points in these discussions? :winking0071:

See how far stereotypes get ya? :smokin:


If this is what you believe, there is no point in subscribing to any religion.

It's called agnosticism. I believe that we were created bya supreme being but I do not accept that one specific religion's definition of what that being looks like or acts like or how I am supposed to live my life is necessarily correct.


Everyone who collects is an idol worshipper. :smokin:

Techincally you are correct. By the purest form of most religions we are to have no worldly valuables and are to commit ourselves to the service of the church/god/community/people/fellow man...etc.

By accumulating things of value we are essentially worshipping money.


We need to figure which is the oldest known formed religion and go from there.

Anybody know where that GEICO caveman guy went to? I bet he could tell us...

theonedru
10-04-2011, 10:44 PM
Well at what point in human history did man look to the stars or? and think that there might be someone else in control.

andrewhoya
10-04-2011, 10:46 PM
Well at what point in human history did man look to the stars or? and think that there might be someone else in control.

People who lived jn the first permanent settlements- Mesopotamia. They were polytheistic and believed in many nature gods and goddesses.

AUTaxMan
10-04-2011, 10:48 PM
Would Christianity not be more of a sect or cult of Judaism since they worshiped a Jew (not God but Jesus) who followed Jewish law and tradition. And since this world was around alot longer than Jesus or Christianity its too new to be able to lay claim to the one true religion.

Why do you think the oldest religion = the one true religion?

The answer to your question is no, since Jesus was/is God. It is not a sect of Judaism, although it started as one.

AUTaxMan
10-04-2011, 10:49 PM
I believe that we were created bya supreme being but I do not accept that one specific religion's definition of what that being looks like or acts like or how I am supposed to live my life is necessarily correct.

Why do you believe that?

duane1969
10-05-2011, 12:31 AM
Why do you believe that?

Very, very long story that involves a lifetime of experiences.

gatorboymike
10-05-2011, 03:20 AM
It's called agnosticism. I believe that we were created bya supreme being but I do not accept that one specific religion's definition of what that being looks like or acts like or how I am supposed to live my life is necessarily correct.

That's not agnosticism, Sunny Jim. That's deism.


Techincally you are correct. By the purest form of most religions we are to have no worldly valuables and are to commit ourselves to the service of the church/god/community/people/fellow man...etc.

By accumulating things of value we are essentially worshipping money.

Eh, since when has so trivial a thing as divine commandments stopped people from doing whatever they feel like?

mrveggieman
10-05-2011, 09:50 AM
Thoughts on this?

The Mathematical Odds of Jesus Fulfilling Prophecy

"The following probabilities are taken from Peter Stoner in Science Speaks (Moody Press, 1963) to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability. Stoner says that by using the modern science of probability in reference to eight prophecies, ‘we find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 10^17." That would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. In order to help us comprehend this staggering probability, Stoner illustrates it by supposing that "we take 10^17 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They will cover all of the state two feet deep. Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one? Just the same chance that the prophets would have had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man."

Stoner considers 48 prophecies and says, "We find the chance that any one man fulfilled all 48 prophecies to be 1 in 10^157, or 1 in 10,00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000, 000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0 000,000,000."

The estimated number of electrons in the universe is around 10^79. It should be quite evident that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies by accident. He was who He said He was: the only way (John 14:6).

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/radio034.htm


John 14:6

King James Version (KJV)


6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

What does that verse have to do with the point that you are trying to make let alone the price of tea in china? Anyone call quote their favorite holy book to attempt to prove their god is the only true god and that all others will be doomed to hell. Btw I believe in God but I have to admit you are making a very poor argument. Keep trying though.

mrveggieman
10-05-2011, 09:53 AM
Wow GBM why don't you tell us how you really feel? While I totally disagree with you hating christanity or any other religion for that matter I do respect you for keeping it real with us. A lot of...

mrveggieman
10-05-2011, 09:59 AM
What do the teachings of Jesus have to do with ancient religion?


Google the Egyptian Book of the Dead. That book was written thousands of years before the bible and a lot of what is in the bible was "borrowed" from it.

Hilfiger1975
10-05-2011, 10:01 AM
Google the Egyptian Book of the Dead. That book was written thousands of years before the bible and a lot of what is in the bible was "borrowed" from it.
Oldest known religion to my knowledge...it's still written by a human being though...

Theodor Madison
10-05-2011, 10:03 AM
The fact that MAN is imperfect, No one can say what is true (without waiver). The time when we think we know it all is when we really know nothing, but all will be revealed.
The question that should be asked is What is the purpose of man?( Why do you exist?)l

AUTaxMan
10-05-2011, 10:51 AM
John 14:6

King James Version (KJV)


6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

What does that verse have to do with the point that you are trying to make let alone the price of tea in china? Anyone call quote their favorite holy book to attempt to prove their god is the only true god and that all others will be doomed to hell. Btw I believe in God but I have to admit you are making a very poor argument. Keep trying though.

The reference to the verse is conclusory. Having made the point that the sheer odds of Jesus's fulfilling 48 Old Testament prophesies are essentially mathematically impossible, the only reasonable conclusion that can be reached is that John 14:6 is true. The verse is not being quoted to prove the point. The point has been proven by the math.

sanfran22
10-05-2011, 10:52 AM
Again, there is only one.............

AUTaxMan
10-05-2011, 10:53 AM
Wow GBM why don't you tell us how you really feel? While I totally disagree with you hating christanity or any other religion for that matter I do respect you for keeping it real with us. A lot of christians (some of them are on here) hate islam and muslims but are not man enough to admit it.

Nobody here hates islam.

sanfran22
10-05-2011, 10:53 AM
The reference to the verse is conclusory. Having made the point that the sheer odds of Jesus's fulfilling 48 Old Testament prophesies are essentially mathematically impossible, the only reasonable conclusion that can be reached is that John 14:6 is true. The verse is not being quoted to prove the point. The point has been proven by the math.

No other book can claim this by the way........

AUTaxMan
10-05-2011, 10:57 AM
Google the Egyptian Book of the Dead. That book was written thousands of years before the bible and a lot of what is in the bible was "borrowed" from it.

What part of Jesus's teachings is "borrowed" from it exactly?

habsheaven
10-05-2011, 10:58 AM
Can someone point me in the right direction to find these 48 prophecies?

mrveggieman
10-05-2011, 11:03 AM
The reference to the verse is conclusory. Having made the point that the sheer odds of Jesus's fulfilling 48 Old Testament prophesies are essentially mathematically impossible, the only reasonable conclusion that can be reached is that John 14:6 is true. The verse is not being quoted to prove the point. The point has been proven by the math.


Christians have said on many occasions that man's words are null and void and the bible is the only real truth. Please correct me if I am wrong in stating that. If you agree with me so far where is that mathmatical equasion in the bible? It's not there and cannot be used for proof that the bible is the true word of God. Please try again.

AUTaxMan
10-05-2011, 11:08 AM
Christians have said on many occasions that man's words are null and void and the bible is the only real truth. Please correct me if I am wrong in stating that. If you agree with me so far where is that mathmatical equasion in the bible? It's not there and cannot be used for proof that the bible is the true word of God. Please try again.

So you say that I cannot use the Bible to prove that Christianity is the only way to God, then you tell me that I cannot use anything outside of the Bible either? You have clearly made your point. You are not interested in debate.

ensbergcollector
10-05-2011, 11:21 AM
Wow GBM why don't you tell us how you really feel? While I totally disagree with you hating christanity or any other religion for that matter I do respect you for keeping it real with us. A lot of christians (some of them are on here) hate islam and muslims but are not man enough to admit it.

you two guys crack me up. You can't actually make a point based on what anyone has said, so you have to play mind reader and base all of your arguments on what "we know they are really thinking." Why don't you actually debate based on what we say. I assume you have never been in a debate in your life. If your only argument is "you didn't say it but I know you were thinking it" then you have no argument.

mrveggieman
10-05-2011, 01:08 PM
you two guys crack me up. You can't actually make a point based on what anyone has said, so you have to play mind reader and base all of your arguments on what "we know they are really thinking." Why don't you actually debate based on what we say. I assume you have never been in a debate in your life. If your only argument is "you didn't say it but I know you were thinking it" then you have no argument.


Again I call things as I see them. If someone suggested that all christians are blood thirsty, racist evil terrorists because of the actions of a small minority of them one could safely assume that the writer of such a comment does not care for christians. Am I correct for making that assumption. Please correct me if I am not. So why is it a double standard for muslims? Please don't come out and say that there are more muslim terrorists than christan terrorists unless you know every muslim as well as christian terrorist.

mrveggieman
10-05-2011, 01:10 PM
So you say that I cannot use the Bible to prove that Christianity is the only way to God, then you tell me that I cannot use anything outside of the Bible either? You have clearly made your point. You are not interested in debate.

Again you are wrong. I am asking that you have come up with something more scientific instead of someone making up random numbers. I used to work in market research several years ago and it is very easy to rigg data and numbers to get them to say whatever you want it to say.

ensbergcollector
10-05-2011, 01:13 PM
Again I call things as I see them. If someone suggested that all christians are blood thirsty, racist evil terrorists because of the actions of a small minority of them one could safely assume that the writer of such a comment does not care for christians. Am I correct for making that assumption. Please correct me if I am not. So why is it a double standard for muslims? Please don't come out and say that there are more muslim terrorists than christan terrorists unless you know every muslim as well as christian terrorist.

you call them like you see them. so that is your rationale for making sweeping generalizations because you "know what people are really thinking"? Awesome. How is that any different than if someone on here said all muslims are terrorists because "we know they are all thinking it." Come on man!

as for the muslim terrorist thing, I have never made that leap. I have actually gone out of my way to make sure no one could assume I was making that leap.

mrveggieman
10-05-2011, 01:24 PM
you call them like you see them. so that is your rationale for making sweeping generalizations because you "know what people are really thinking"? Awesome. How is that any different than if someone on here said all muslims are terrorists because "we know they are all thinking it." Come on man!

as for the muslim terrorist thing, I have never made that leap. I have actually gone out of my way to make sure no one could assume I was making that leap.


Again I never called out anyone's name in particular for hating muslims or saying they are terrorists but by reading some of the posts on here an unbiased person of average intellegence could figure out who they are.

ensbergcollector
10-05-2011, 01:28 PM
Again I never called out anyone's name in particular for hating muslims or saying they are terrorists but by reading some of the posts on here an unbiased person of average intellegence could figure out who they are.

you state repeatedly that you know what republicans, christians, conservatives, etc. are really thinking even if they don't say it. I won't comment on your intelligence level but you are far from unbiased. Any unbias person could read your posts and see that clearly.

mrveggieman
10-05-2011, 01:28 PM
What part of Jesus's teachings is "borrowed" from it exactly?


For your viewing pleasure:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10cl.htm

mrveggieman
10-05-2011, 01:33 PM
you state repeatedly that you know what republicans, christians, conservatives, etc. are really thinking even if they don't say it. I won't comment on your intelligence level but you are far from unbiased. Any unbias person could read your posts and see that clearly.


And who on P/R dosen't have some type of bias one way or the other? The difference between me and some of the other posters on here is that I don't let my biases lead to hateful or blasphmous statements.

AUTaxMan
10-05-2011, 01:35 PM
Again you are wrong. I am asking that you have come up with something more scientific instead of someone making up random numbers. I used to work in market research several years ago and it is very easy to rigg data and numbers to get them to say whatever you want it to say.

Why do you say that those statistics are not scientific?

mrveggieman
10-05-2011, 01:40 PM
Why do you say that those statistics are not scientific?


Where did this guy get all this from? If this was reliable information it would have been all over. Why is it only now that we are hearing about it? I'm sure that our buddy GBM can make up a bunch of numbers to prove that voldermart from the harry potter stories is lord and that we should all worship him.

AUTaxMan
10-05-2011, 01:42 PM
For your viewing pleasure:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10cl.htm

That is a major stretch. There is some incredibly minor similarity in the ten commandments and a few verses from the book of the dead that some skeptics tout as proof that the Bible was borrowed from the BOD, and you submit this as proof? I'm certain that "don't murder" is one of the basic ethical principles of all religions (well, there are exceptions). Does that mean that all religions that say not to murder come from ancient egyptian religions? Also, what of Jesus's teachings come from other religions?

AUTaxMan
10-05-2011, 01:45 PM
Where did this guy get all this from? If this was reliable information it would have been all over. Why is it only now that we are hearing about it? I'm sure that our buddy GBM can make up a bunch of numbers to prove that voldermart from the harry potter stories is lord and that we should all worship him.

http://www.sciencespeaks.net/

mrveggieman
10-05-2011, 01:56 PM
http://www.sciencespeaks.net/


Again nice try but that is assuming that one would believe in the OT let alone the NT. For someone who is an atheist like GBM those numbers would mean nothing to him because he considers the bible a book of fiction. As we all know anyone can write a work of fiction to include anything that you want it to say. Don't get me wrong it would be nice if more people believed in God and actually lived by Jesus message of love and not hate like some people do but you are not doing a good job proving the validity of the bible.

mrveggieman
10-05-2011, 01:58 PM
That is a major stretch. There is some incredibly minor similarity in the ten commandments and a few verses from the book of the dead that some skeptics tout as proof that the Bible was borrowed from the BOD, and you submit this as proof? I'm certain that "don't murder" is one of the basic ethical principles of all religions (well, there are exceptions). Does that mean that all religions that say not to murder come from ancient egyptian religions? Also, what of Jesus's teachings come from other religions?


http://www.egypt-tehuti.org/articles/egypt-bible-similarities.html

AUTaxMan
10-05-2011, 02:06 PM
Again nice try but that is assuming that one would believe in the OT let alone the NT. For someone who is an atheist like GBM those numbers would mean nothing to him because he considers the bible a book of fiction. As well all know you can write a work of fiction to include anything that you want it to say. Don't get me wrong it would be nice if more people believed in God and actually lived by Jesus message of love and not hate like some people do but you are not doing a good job proving the validity of the bible.

Assume that the Harry Potter series contains various fictional prophesies about a coming messiah. What if a man is born and, against all mathematical odds, fulfills all of the fictional Harry Potter prophesies, including many over which he exercised no individual control, such as the city of his birth, that he would be that he would be crucified, that he was sold for thirty pieces of silver, that the thirty pieces of silver would be cast to a potter, etc. Would that just be incredible luck that he fulfilled all of the fictional prophesies, or would that mean that the the Harry Potter series, the prophesies, and the man fulfilling the prophesies were divine?

AUTaxMan
10-05-2011, 02:11 PM
http://www.egypt-tehuti.org/articles/egypt-bible-similarities.html

What does that prove, other than there are are a few isolated similarities?

mrveggieman
10-05-2011, 02:16 PM
Assume that the Harry Potter series contains various fictional prophesies about a coming messiah. What if a man is born and, against all mathematical odds, fulfills all of the fictional Harry Potter prophesies, including many over which he exercised no individual control, such as the city of his birth, that he would be that he would be crucified, that he was sold for thirty pieces of silver, that the thirty pieces of silver would be cast to a potter, etc. Would that just be incredible luck that he fulfilled all of the fictional prophesies, or would that mean that the the Harry Potter series, the prophesies, and the man fulfilling the prophesies were divine?

Again how can you prove to us that the bible is indeed the true word of god? I'm sure that a muslim supporter can make up a similiar formula to prove the validity of the koran. Neither one would be enough evidence in my or any other objective and unbiased person's book. Yes a mathmatician may have came up with odds on it but that still does not prove that the book that he gave the odds on was true. He wasn't there he is only giving odds. He is no different from a bookie. Do you get your religious inspiration from Vegas?

mrveggieman
10-05-2011, 02:19 PM
What does that prove, other than there are are a few isolated similarities?


It proves a whole lot more than some guy making up a bunch of random numbers. :winking0071:

habsheaven
10-05-2011, 02:24 PM
Can someone point me in the right direction to find these 48 prophecies?

I didn't realize this was such a difficult question to answer. I might try to find it on my own later.:bored:

theonedru
10-05-2011, 03:30 PM
for those arguing Christianity and your 1 true god theories I say read your bible (since this is old testament it works for Judaism as well)

Genesis 1:26
And God said, let us make man in our image.

Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, Behold, then man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.

Genesis 11:7
Let us go down, and there confound their language.

Exodus 12:12
And against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment.

Exodus 15:11
Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods?

Exodus 18:11
Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods.

Exodus 22:28
Thou shalt not revile the gods.

Exodus 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

Deuteronomy 6:14-15
Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you)

Deuteronomy 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords.

Joshua 24:14
Fear the Lord ... and put away the gods which your fathers served.

Judges 11:24
Wilt not thou possess that which Chemosh thy god giveth thee to possess?

1 Chronicles 16:25
The Lord ... is to be feared above all gods.

Psalm 82:1
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty, he judgeth among the gods.

I could go on but you get the point, your holy books admit the existence of other Godly beings yet most Christians lay claim to there being only one? So my argument being why can't one of these other beings have had a more ancient worship. This would also make sense as to the other spiritual existences throughout the world and time.

mrveggieman
10-05-2011, 03:40 PM
We've had a lot of posts to this thread and this is how it is going so far. All of the overtly religious people believe that their religion is the one and only true religion of god and if you follow anything else you are doomed to hell. That is their right to believe so. However those of us who are not as extreme when it comes to religion do have every right to question them when they come at us with that and demand proof. The religious right on here have utterly failed when asked on numerous occasions to provide proof. The only thing that they have done so far was quote their holy book (which means nothing to someone dosen't believe in your book in the first place or believes that your holy book is no greater nor no less than any other holy book) or quote some mathmatatician who spews of some meaningless numbers which dosen't mean anything to anyone.

sanfran22
10-05-2011, 03:40 PM
for those arguing Christianity and your 1 true god theories I say read your bible (since this is old testament it works for Judaism as well)

Genesis 1:26
And God said, let us make man in our image. -Speaks of the trinity, One God, 3 parts

Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, Behold, then man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.-Trinity

Genesis 11:7
Let us go down, and there confound their language. _trinity mixing up mans language

Exodus 12:12
And against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment. -

Exodus 15:11
Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods?

Exodus 18:11
Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods.

Exodus 22:28
Thou shalt not revile the gods.

Exodus 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

Deuteronomy 6:14-15
Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you)

Deuteronomy 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords.

Joshua 24:14
Fear the Lord ... and put away the gods which your fathers served.

Judges 11:24
Wilt not thou possess that which Chemosh thy god giveth thee to possess?

1 Chronicles 16:25
The Lord ... is to be feared above all gods.

Psalm 82:1
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty, he judgeth among the gods.

I could go on but you get the point, your holy books admit the existence of other Godly beings yet most Christians lay claim to there being only one? So my argument being why can't one of these other beings have had a more ancient worship. This would also make sense as to the other spiritual existences throughout the world and time.
I'll hit a few for you....
Several are talking about the trinity, False Idol/god worship ect. also, you need to put the whole verses out there for context and a lot would be clear.

habsheaven
10-05-2011, 03:41 PM
My guess, the believers will tell you that those gods are all FALSE gods, although their God doesn't say as much. You just have to know how to read between the lines.

sanfran22
10-05-2011, 03:46 PM
We've had a lot of posts to this thread and this is how it is going so far. All of the overtly religious people believe that their religion is the one and only true religion of god and if you follow anything else you are doomed to hell. That is their right to believe so. However those of us who are not as extreme when it comes to religion do have every right to question them when they come at us with that and demand proof. The religious right on here have utterly failed when asked on numerous occasions to provide proof. The only thing that they have done so far was quote their holy book (which means nothing to someone dosen't believe in your book in the first place or believes that your holy book is no greater nor no less than any other holy book) or quote some mathmatatician who spews of some meaningless numbers which dosen't mean anything to anyone.

You've been given many examples of things you can't comprehend or refute. You cannot explain all of the prophecies being fulfilled. No other book has that. I would ask you to read the book of revelations and compare it to what is going on today. You will see many things are coming true.
I wish you would read instead of throw out baseless, fact-less arguments. I promise you that you will have all the proof you need shortly. Just do me a favor and read Revelations and see what is happening around you. No one on here is going to have the "proof" you are seeking. There are so many things that have been laid out before you that you can't refute. The rest is up to you whether you believe or not. No one can or will force you to.

theonedru
10-05-2011, 03:46 PM
I'll hit a few for you....
Several are talking about the trinity, False Idol/god worship ect. also, you need to put the whole verses out there for context and a lot would be clear.

So even if you hold true the concept of them talking about the trinity then that is still saying there is more than 1 god........

sanfran22
10-05-2011, 03:50 PM
My guess, the believers will tell you that those gods are all FALSE gods, although their God doesn't say as much. You just have to know how to read between the lines.

1 Corinthians 10:20 ESV / 5 helpful votes

No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons.

1 Corinthians 10:14 ESV / 4 helpful votes

Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.

Ezekiel 20:12-21 ESV / 4 helpful votes

Moreover, I gave them my Sabbaths, as a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord who sanctifies them. But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness. They did not walk in my statutes but rejected my rules, by which, if a person does them, he shall live; and my Sabbaths they greatly profaned. “Then I said I would pour out my wrath upon them in the wilderness, to make a full end of them. But I acted for the sake of my name, that it should not be profaned in the sight of the nations, in whose sight I had brought them out. Moreover, I swore to them in the wilderness that I would not bring them into the land that I had given them, a land flowing with milk and honey, the most glorious of all lands, because they rejected my rules and did not walk in my statutes, and profaned my Sabbaths; for their heart went after their idols. ...

Ezekiel 16:17 ESV / 4 helpful votes

You also took your beautiful jewels of my gold and of my silver, which I had given you, and made for yourself images of men, and with them played the ™™™™™.

1 Kings 12:28-30 ESV / 4 helpful votes

So the king took counsel and made two calves of gold. And he said to the people, “You have gone up to Jerusalem long enough. Behold your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt.” And he set one in Bethel, and the other he put in Dan. Then this thing became a sin, for the people went as far as Dan to be before one.



There's a ton of them that are pretty clear......

AUTaxMan
10-05-2011, 03:54 PM
Again how can you prove to us that the bible is indeed the true word of god? I'm sure that a muslim supporter can make up a similiar formula to prove the validity of the koran. Neither one would be enough evidence in my or any other objective and unbiased person's book. Yes a mathmatician may have came up with odds on it but that still does not prove that the book that he gave the odds on was true. He wasn't there he is only giving odds. He is no different from a bookie. Do you get your religious inspiration from Vegas?

Please answer my question.

Fact 1 - Lots of different people in the old testament predicted various things about the messiah many years before he was born. Whether you believe in the bible or not, there is no dispute that the predictions were made.

Fact 2 - All of these predictions came true with respect to Jesus.

Fact 3 - Someone who has a phd in astrophysics from cornell has, by scientific means, attempted to surmise the mathematical probability (to the greatest extent possible) of each of the fulfillment of each of these prophesies.

Fact 4 - The conclusion of the writer was that it would essentially be mathematically impossible for a person to fulfill all of the prophesies.


So, I will ask the questions again:

Would that just be incredible luck that Jesus fulfilled all of the prophesies, or would that mean that the bible, the prophesies, and the man fulfilling the prophesies were divine?

sanfran22
10-05-2011, 03:54 PM
So even if you hold true the concept of them talking about the trinity then that is still saying there is more than 1 god........

No, it's one God 3 persons.....It's a tough concept I agree.... A good analogy to me is time...There is only one time, but there is a past, present, and future.

AUTaxMan
10-05-2011, 03:59 PM
So even if you hold true the concept of them talking about the trinity then that is still saying there is more than 1 god........

No. The trinity is the embodiment of the one God in three different forms: God, man, and the holy spirit. They are all, however, God.

mrveggieman
10-05-2011, 03:59 PM
You've been given many examples of things you can't comprehend or refute. You cannot explain all of the prophecies being fulfilled. No other book has that. I would ask you to read the book of revelations and compare it to what is going on today. You will see many things are coming true.
I wish you would read instead of throw out baseless, fact-less arguments. I promise you that you will have all the proof you need shortly. Just do me a favor and read Revelations and see what is happening around you. No one on here is going to have the "proof" you are seeking. There are so many things that have been laid out before you that you can't refute. The rest is up to you whether you believe or not. No one can or will force you to.


I have actually read revelations, it along with genesis are 2 of my favorite books in the bible. However most of genesis referres to doomsday predictions which have yet to occur. I am glad to hear you admit that no one can provide the proof that we demand but that goes back to what was said earlier that as far as the level of understanding that we as mere mortals possess there is no way on earth that one can prove what is the one true religion. Each religion holy book claims that they are right and all others are wrong. Anyone can rigg numbers, make up a bunch of theories, or connect dots that are not there to try to prove their point but all of their arguments will come up short. The only thing one can do is trust in God that he will lead you down the right path and go with works for you and put everything else in his hands.

Star_Cards
10-05-2011, 04:02 PM
Please answer my question.

Fact 1 - Lots of different people in the old testament predicted various things about the messiah many years before he was born. Whether you believe in the bible or not, there is no dispute that the predictions were made.

Fact 2 - All of these predictions came true with respect to Jesus.

Fact 3 - Someone who has a phd in astrophysics from cornell has, by scientific means, attempted to surmise the mathematical probability (to the greatest extent possible) of each of the fulfillment of each of these prophesies.

Fact 4 - The conclusion of the writer was that it would essentially be mathematically impossible for a person to fulfill all of the prophesies.


So, I will ask the questions again:

Would that just be incredible luck that Jesus fulfilled all of the prophesies, or would that mean that the bible, the prophesies, and the man fulfilling the prophesies were divine?

When was the old testament written? Do we know for sure it's date of origin?

AUTaxMan
10-05-2011, 04:02 PM
When was the old testament written? Do we know for sure it's date of origin?

Are you implying that the old testament post-dated Jesus?

Star_Cards
10-05-2011, 04:04 PM
Are you implying that the old testament post-dated Jesus?

I'm not implying anything. I don't know so I asked someone more knowledgable.

Is it impossible that it doesn't post-date Jesus?

AUTaxMan
10-05-2011, 04:08 PM
I'm not implying anything. I don't know so I asked someone more knowledgable.

Is it impossible that it doesn't post-date Jesus?

You are talking about a collection of books that predate Jesus by hundreds of years.

mrveggieman
10-05-2011, 04:13 PM
Please answer my question.

Fact 1 - Lots of different people in the old testament predicted various things about the messiah many years before he was born. Whether you believe in the bible or not, there is no dispute that the predictions were made.

Fact 2 - All of these predictions came true with respect to Jesus.

Fact 3 - Someone who has a phd in astrophysics from cornell has, by scientific means, attempted to surmise the mathematical probability (to the greatest extent possible) of each of the fulfillment of each of these prophesies.

Fact 4 - The conclusion of the writer was that it would essentially be mathematically impossible for a person to fulfill all of the prophesies.


So, I will ask the questions again:

Would that just be incredible luck that Jesus fulfilled all of the prophesies, or would that mean that the bible, the prophesies, and the man fulfilling the prophesies were divine?


Answering your question it would be mathmetically impossible for an average person to do what is claimed in the bible. Just like it is impossible for a person today to walk on water or turn water into wine. You still haven't proved that the bible is the one and only true word of god only that it would be impossible for a mere mortal in today's society to do what the bible claims. Just like was mentioned earlier in book 5 of the harry potter series it was predicted that harry potter and lord voldemort would fight to the death and it came to pass in book 7. If you are saying just because a book predicts something then it must be true then why don't you accept the harry potter series as a devine writing?

duane1969
10-05-2011, 04:19 PM
When was the old testament written?

It was written before the New Testament...sorry I couldn't resist :smokin:

Star_Cards
10-05-2011, 04:22 PM
Please answer my question.

Fact 1 - Lots of different people in the old testament predicted various things about the messiah many years before he was born. Whether you believe in the bible or not, there is no dispute that the predictions were made.

Fact 2 - All of these predictions came true with respect to Jesus.

Fact 3 - Someone who has a phd in astrophysics from cornell has, by scientific means, attempted to surmise the mathematical probability (to the greatest extent possible) of each of the fulfillment of each of these prophesies.

Fact 4 - The conclusion of the writer was that it would essentially be mathematically impossible for a person to fulfill all of the prophesies.


So, I will ask the questions again:

Would that just be incredible luck that Jesus fulfilled all of the prophesies, or would that mean that the bible, the prophesies, and the man fulfilling the prophesies were divine?

I'm not certain what the predictions are exactly but could it be that Jesus followed these writings to make the prophecies in turn true? As for the main topic of this thread, I'd bet that other religions have prophecies that are said to have come true within their religious text.

AUTaxMan
10-05-2011, 04:26 PM
I'm not certain what the predictions are exactly but could it be that Jesus followed these writings to make the prophecies in turn true? As for the main topic of this thread, I'd bet that other religions have prophecies that are said to have come true within their religious text.

Jesus could have absolutely no influence over many of the predictions, as stated earlier.

AUTaxMan
10-05-2011, 04:27 PM
Answering your question it would be mathmetically impossible for an average person to do what is claimed in the bible. Just like it is impossible for a person today to walk on water or turn water into wine. You still haven't proved that the bible is the one and only true word of god only that it would be impossible for a mere mortal in today's society to do what the bible claims. Just like was mentioned earlier in book 5 of the harry potter series it was predicted that harry potter and lord voldemort would fight to the death and it came to pass in book 7. If you are saying just because a book predicts something then it must be true then why don't you accept the harry potter series as a devine writing?

I am not saying that the fact that the prophecies were made gives the bible credence. The fact that they were fulfilled does.

ensbergcollector
10-05-2011, 04:28 PM
ok, for all those who are wanting proof. religious people believe in their respective holy books. I get why a non-believer will not allow that as fact but the truth is that all religions are based on faith. If there were proof, there would only be one religion. We believe in our religion and our holy book because of faith.
If that isn't good enough, I understand. But I'm not really sure how you can expect someone to give you more than that.


If I say I know my wife loves me, how can I prove it to you? Sometimes things are not provable. As I have stated, I understand why some people require proof but religious people are not being stupid or dumb when they say there is none to offer.

Star_Cards
10-05-2011, 04:31 PM
It was written before the New Testament...sorry I couldn't resist :smokin:

funny guy. LOL

maybe the old testament was written after but they slapped an old on it to make you think it was older. LOL

Star_Cards
10-05-2011, 04:32 PM
Jesus could have absolutely no influence over many of the predictions, as stated earlier.

trying to find the predictions. lots of pages.

mrveggieman
10-05-2011, 04:37 PM
Jesus could have absolutely no influence over many of the predictions, as stated earlier.


If you claim him as your lord how could he not have any influence?

AUTaxMan
10-05-2011, 04:41 PM
If you claim him as your lord how could he not have any influence?

Now you are playing semantics. Of course he could have influenced them, but a mortal man could not have. The point is that no man could have fulfilled all of the prophesies, except for Jesus, because he was God.

habsheaven
10-05-2011, 04:42 PM
Since no one felt a need to answer my last question, I will ask another. How many Prophecies were made? How many did not come true?

Fortune tellers could make a mint of some of you. lol

mrveggieman
10-05-2011, 04:43 PM
I am not saying that the fact that the prophecies were made gives the bible credence. The fact that they were fulfilled does.


Again what proof besides what the bible says do you have of any of these prophecise being fulfilled? If you cannot provide any evidence that goes back to what most people have said including your good buddy sanfran22 is that you cannot provide proof of such outside of what is written in the bible. Again do not take any of this as a knock on the bible or any particular religion but once again no one on earth in this current day and age can prove without a shadow of a doubt that the bible, koran, book of morman, egyptian book of the dead, etc is the actual word of god. You utlimately have to decide what works best for you and your relationship with God and roll with that.

otsegoflake
10-05-2011, 04:45 PM
ok, for all those who are wanting proof. religious people believe in their respective holy books. I get why a non-believer will not allow that as fact but the truth is that all religions are based on faith. If there were proof, there would only be one religion. We believe in our religion and our holy book because of faith.
If that isn't good enough, I understand. But I'm not really sure how you can expect someone to give you more than that.


If I say I know my wife loves me, how can I prove it to you? Sometimes things are not provable. As I have stated, I understand why some people require proof but religious people are not being stupid or dumb when they say there is none to offer.
All the answers are right there. ^

mrveggieman
10-05-2011, 04:46 PM
ok, for all those who are wanting proof. religious people believe in their respective holy books. I get why a non-believer will not allow that as fact but the truth is that all religions are based on faith. If there were proof, there would only be one religion. We believe in our religion and our holy book because of faith.
If that isn't good enough, I understand. But I'm not really sure how you can expect someone to give you more than that.


If I say I know my wife loves me, how can I prove it to you? Sometimes things are not provable. As I have stated, I understand why some people require proof but religious people are not being stupid or dumb when they say there is none to offer.


If it dosen't offend any of our readers on here I'm going to go ahead and give you a church for that one.

Church!! :cheer2:

AUTaxMan
10-05-2011, 04:54 PM
Not done with this discussion, but I have to go now.

mrveggieman
10-05-2011, 05:05 PM
Not done with this discussion, but I have to go now.


I'll be headed home in a few minutes too and won't be online that much from the house but I do look forward to mixing up with ya'll tommorrow :boxing:. Keep the responses coming.

andrewhoya
10-05-2011, 05:25 PM
We've had a lot of posts to this thread and this is how it is going so far. All of the overtly religious people believe that their religion is the one and only true religion of god and if you follow anything else you are doomed to hell. That is their right to believe so. However those of us who are not as extreme when it comes to religion do have every right to question them when they come at us with that and demand proof. The religious right on here have utterly failed when asked on numerous occasions to provide proof. The only thing that they have done so far was quote their holy book (which means nothing to someone dosen't believe in your book in the first place or believes that your holy book is no greater nor no less than any other holy book) or quote some mathmatatician who spews of some meaningless numbers which dosen't mean anything to anyone.

All minus one. I am very overtly religious.

gatorboymike
10-05-2011, 05:56 PM
Please answer my question.

Fact 1 - Lots of different people in the old testament predicted various things about the messiah many years before he was born. Whether you believe in the bible or not, there is no dispute that the predictions were made.

Fact 2 - All of these predictions came true with respect to Jesus.

All you can do is take the book at its word. There is no good reason for doing this. You just assume, with no justification, that we can assume everything in the book actually happened in real life exactly as it is depicted in the book. Well of course you do, because that's all you can do.


Fact 3 - Someone who has a phd in astrophysics from cornell has, by scientific means, attempted to surmise the mathematical probability (to the greatest extent possible) of each of the fulfillment of each of these prophesies.

Fact 4 - The conclusion of the writer was that it would essentially be mathematically impossible for a person to fulfill all of the prophesies.

Yes, yes, Christians are impressed by big numbers, argument from false authority, a couple of guys that were up to no good started makin' trouble in my neighborhood.


So, I will ask the questions again:

Would that just be incredible luck that Jesus fulfilled all of the prophesies, or would that mean that the bible, the prophesies, and the man fulfilling the prophesies were divine?

Are you going to go the Bill O'Reilly route next, and ask us "Where did the moon come from? Where did the moon come from?"

You obviously missed the point of the Harry Potter reference. The point is, the later books were written by people who had the earlier books in hand, who knew what the earlier books said was supposed to happen, and who didn't really care about reporting accurately, so they wrote what they were "supposed to" write. And yes, I'll go on record here as saying I suspect that some of the OT prophecies were rewritten to make them fit more with supposed NT events.

Divine prophecy is a bunch of nonsense. Whenever Christians talk about it, it always falls into one of two categories. First: the Old Testament said stuff would happen, and that stuff happened in the New Testament. Sorry, the Bible does not prove the Bible true. Second: "Oh, it says bad stuff would happen, and bad stuff is happening now!" Wow, really?! Bad stuff?! You're right, bad stuff has NEVER once happened before, anywhere, ever, in all of human history! That proves everything in the Bible is literally true! Wait, I know what you're going to say next: "Well, the bad stuff that's happening now is a million billion gazillion squintillion tunasandwichillion times worse than all the bad stuff that ever happened before!" Uh huh, and your proof of that is...? Oh wait, I forgot, you don't do proof.

theonedru
10-05-2011, 06:14 PM
No, it's one God 3 persons.....It's a tough concept I agree.... A good analogy to me is time...There is only one time, but there is a past, present, and future.

it can be argued that since time has no beginning and no ending it cannot truly exist. And claiming the existence of a trinity means that 3 entities make up the whole not the whole making up 3 entities a such those who believe in the trinity believe in multiple gods.

theonedru
10-05-2011, 06:17 PM
And why has this come down once again to just the bible and Christianity, People need to quit looking at this with such a close mind. look at this argument from an impartial 3rd party standpoint. Otherwise this has become pointless and boring as its the same garbage that is repeated over and over again.

sanfran22
10-05-2011, 09:09 PM
Since no one felt a need to answer my last question, I will ask another. How many Prophecies were made? How many did not come true?

Fortune tellers could make a mint of some of you. lol
There are hundreds. I believe 40 or 50 related directly to Jesus.....All have come true up to this point. There are still more coming. It's the only book that can claim that. If you reference it with History books and writings, you can see other references to the prophecies from outside a biblical perspective....

gatorboymike
10-06-2011, 05:10 AM
They're just the masters of making grandiose claims with nothing to back them up, aren't they...

TheTGB
10-06-2011, 06:18 AM
So I'm reading 1984 and I'm seeing all these prophecies come true from that book...the one and true God is George Orwell!

otsegoflake
10-06-2011, 09:20 AM
You obviously missed the point of the Harry Potter reference. The point is, the later books were written by people who had the earlier books in hand, who knew what the earlier books said was supposed to happen, and who didn't really care about reporting accurately, so they wrote what they were "supposed to" write. And yes, I'll go on record here as saying I suspect that some of the OT prophecies were rewritten to make them fit more with supposed NT events.


There you go, people. How can you doubt a guy who obviously saw this with his own two eyes? :rolleyes:

On a serious note, you can't get worked up over Christians not providing substantial proof and then make a claim like that.

habsheaven
10-06-2011, 11:04 AM
There you go, people. How can you doubt a guy who obviously saw this with his own two eyes? :rolleyes:

On a serious note, you can't get worked up over Christians not providing substantial proof and then make a claim like that.

That is the point. Since nobody can PROVE anything, it comes down to a question of plausibility. GBM's explanation is more plausible than the mathematical odds of all the prophecies being fulfilled.

ensbergcollector
10-06-2011, 11:13 AM
That is the point. Since nobody can PROVE anything, it comes down to a question of plausibility. GBM's explanation is more plausible than the mathematical odds of all the prophecies being fulfilled.

and that is why you have people who will never accept religion. For you it is more plausible that there is some vast wide sweeping conspiracy that took hundreds if not thousands of years to pull off then the fact that there might be some truth to it.

sanfran22
10-06-2011, 11:14 AM
That is the point. Since nobody can PROVE anything, it comes down to a question of plausibility. GBM's explanation is more plausible than the mathematical odds of all the prophecies being fulfilled.

The Old Testament predates Christ 3-500 years from my understanding. So it seems plausible that it wasn't just luck that everything was fulfilled......

Star_Cards
10-06-2011, 11:32 AM
The Old Testament predates Christ 3-500 years from my understanding. So it seems plausible that it wasn't just luck that everything was fulfilled......

what page were these prophecies posted on? I can't locate them.

Star_Cards
10-06-2011, 11:35 AM
And as far as any christian prophecy goes. What it the text that says they came true? The bible?

sanfran22
10-06-2011, 11:38 AM
what page were these prophecies posted on? I can't locate them.

Lol, they are not on one page. They are all through out. I'll give you a link since it would take forever to list them.
http://thefundidriveby.blogspot.com/2006/11/old-testament-prophecies-fulfilled-by.html

Star_Cards
10-06-2011, 11:48 AM
Lol, they are not on one page. They are all through out. I'll give you a link since it would take forever to list them.
http://thefundidriveby.blogspot.com/2006/11/old-testament-prophecies-fulfilled-by.html

ah, thanks. someone mentioned that they were listed in this post. that is what I meant by what page.

Star_Cards
10-06-2011, 11:53 AM
These look to be mostly, if not all, "validated" solely by the bible. I do not take the bible as a historical document that recorded actually historical happenings. Using the Bible to prove that a prophecy was fulfilled carries no weigh with me.

sanfran22
10-06-2011, 11:59 AM
These look to be mostly, if not all, "validated" solely by the bible. I do not take the bible as a historical document that recorded actually historical happenings. Using the Bible to prove that a prophecy was fulfilled carries no weigh with me.

Alot of them can be verified by many different sources. History books, personal documented accounts ect. How can the Bible not verify it? How can it not be historical? If the people, places and events occured, how can that not be relied upon? If it was written 200 years before it occured, how can you debate it regardless of where you read it?

mrveggieman
10-06-2011, 12:17 PM
Alot of them can be verified by many different sources. History books, personal documented accounts ect. How can the Bible not verify it? How can it not be historical? If the people, places and events occured, how can that not be relied upon? If it was written 200 years before it occured, how can you debate it regardless of where you read it?


Feel free to provide non biblical references if there are any.

Star_Cards
10-06-2011, 12:27 PM
Alot of them can be verified by many different sources. History books, personal documented accounts ect. How can the Bible not verify it? How can it not be historical? If the people, places and events occured, how can that not be relied upon? If it was written 200 years before it occured, how can you debate it regardless of where you read it?

Just because the bible refers to actual places and historical events doesn't mean everything in the bible is fact. Yes, the bible talks about towns and areas and even people that actually exist/existed, but that doesn't mean that adam and eve actually existed, or moses split the red sea, or jesus came back to life after being crucified.

Religious lore is not proof of a prophecy happening in my mind or opinion.

sanfran22
10-06-2011, 12:29 PM
Feel free to provide non biblical references if there are any.

There's a bunch but I'll give you one (even though it probably wont matter)

It's historically know how Jesus was crucified.

(4) Some 400 years before crucifixion was invented, both Israel's King David and the prophet Zechariah described the Messiah's death in words that perfectly depict that mode of execution. Further, they said that the body would be pierced and that none of the bones would be broken, contrary to customary procedure in cases of crucifixion (Psalm 22 and 34:20; Zechariah 12:10). Again, historians and New Testament writers confirm the fulfillment: Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross, and his extraordinarily quick death eliminated the need for the usual breaking of bones. A spear was thrust into his side to verify that he was, indeed, dead.

mrveggieman
10-06-2011, 12:40 PM
There's a bunch but I'll give you one (even though it probably wont matter)

It's historically know how Jesus was crucified.

(4) Some 400 years before crucifixion was invented, both Israel's King David and the prophet Zechariah described the Messiah's death in words that perfectly depict that mode of execution. Further, they said that the body would be pierced and that none of the bones would be broken, contrary to customary procedure in cases of crucifixion (Psalm 22 and 34:20; Zechariah 12:10). Again, historians and New Testament writers confirm the fulfillment: Jesus of Nazareth died on a Roman cross, and his extraordinarily quick death eliminated the need for the usual breaking of bones. A spear was thrust into his side to verify that he was, indeed, dead.


Again where is your non biblical proof? Where are you getting this information from? Do you have links or books supporting this?

sanfran22
10-06-2011, 12:52 PM
Again where is your non biblical proof? Where are you getting this information from? Do you have links or books supporting this?
Do you think Jesus did not get crucified? That is not historically a fact?
Here's a bunch of people that documented Jesus' existence and life. You can come to your own conclusion to if History shows Jesus was born, where he was born, if he was crucified and how......

Ancient Historians
These historians made reference to Jesus and to early Christians. Ancient pagans, Jews, and Christians wrote historic texts that mentioned Christ.

Eusebius of Caesarea - A third century theologian who used the library in Caesarea for much of his research.

Flavius Josephus - A first century Jewish historian who documented the Roman empire.

Justin Martyr - A Gentile who lived in Palestine and later became a Christian. This theologian used Greek philosophy to explain Christian doctrine.

Resources for Philo of Alexandria - A Jewish philosopher and historian who lived in the first century.

Tacitus - A first century Roman historian, who chronicled the lives of several emperors.

Tertullian - An African theologian who wrote extensively in Latin. He was first to use the word trinitas to describe the Godhead.

AUTaxMan
10-06-2011, 01:11 PM
Non-biblical references don't appear to matter in this argument either. I didn't figure it out until last night, but I believe the point that the skeptics are trying to make (though they haven't stated it very well) is that no document older than ____ can be considered factually accurate with respect to specifics like quotations, minor events, and so forth because they are too old to be reliable and have too few confirming sources.

Apparently unless there is video recording or photographic images of an event, it didn't happen. I say that in jest, but skeptics, at what point in history do you believe the veracity of anything written?

habsheaven
10-06-2011, 01:12 PM
and that is why you have people who will never accept religion. For you it is more plausible that there is some vast wide sweeping conspiracy that took hundreds if not thousands of years to pull off then the fact that there might be some truth to it.

It only takes a small group of people to start a conspiracy. Over thousands of years of indoctrination it will grow quite well. I am sure you are not part of continuing the conspiracy nor are most other believers. That is the beauty of the conspiracy. Instill the belief in them when they are young and they will continue to believe even when their logically developed minds begin to question the story. Remember, there was a time you believed in Santa Claus too?

habsheaven
10-06-2011, 01:20 PM
Non-biblical reference don't appear to matter in this argument either. I didn't figure it out until last night, but I believe the point that the skeptics are trying to make (though they haven't stated it very well) is that no document older than ____ can be considered factually accurate with respect to specifics like quotations, minor events, and so forth because they are too old to be reliable and have too few confirming sources.

Apparently unless there is video recording or photographic images of an event, it didn't happen. I say that in jest, but skeptics, at what point in history do you believe the veracity of anything written?

I don't know. I learned long ago that "history was written by the victors". Ask yourself this. Why do you not believe in the words of the Kuran? What makes the veracity of this document any less truthful than the Bible?

ensbergcollector
10-06-2011, 01:21 PM
It only takes a small group of people to start a conspiracy. Over thousands of years of indoctrination it will grow quite well. I am sure you are not part of continuing the conspiracy nor are most other believers. That is the beauty of the conspiracy. Instill the belief in them when they are young and they will continue to believe even when their logically developed minds begin to question the story. Remember, there was a time you believed in Santa Claus too?

congratulations on your ability to call billions of people immature childish idiots.

Hilfiger1975
10-06-2011, 01:26 PM
congratulations on your ability to call billions of people immature childish idiots.
Sadly, it's the truth...

duane1969
10-06-2011, 01:28 PM
I don't know. I learned long ago that "history was written by the victors". Ask yourself this. Why do you not believe in the words of the Kuran? What makes the veracity of this document any less truthful than the Bible?

Actually most Christians do believe in the Koran to some degree. Both the Quran and Holy Bible share many aspects.

*The Torah (first five books of the Quran) are the first five books of the Holy Bible.

*Common figures
The Qur’an and Bible have over 50 people in common, typically in the same narratives. The Qur’an identifies the prophets Job, Enoch, Imram, and Ishmael, but they are never given a story. In the Bible, all these men are identified as righteous people but not prophets — except Ishmael who is not written of favorably.

*Saul and Gideon
In the Bible, both Gideon and Saul are military leaders of Israel between the Exodus and Exile. In the Book of Judges in the Bible, Gideon is hesitant about leading the Hebrews to battle. To demonstrate God’s power, God tells Gideon to observe when the troops reach a river and whoever drinks without his hands Gideon must send home. The Hebrews later have victory.

In the Qur’an, the same event happens to Saul on the way to meet Goliath. In the Biblical account of Saul and Goliath, Saul is also hesitant about the battle with Goliath’s army.

*Noah

See Genesis 6:5-9-19 and mainly Surah 11.25-48 as well as Surahs 7.59-64, 10.71-73, 23.23-28, 26.105-121, 54.9-16, and all of 71.

I could go on. I won't. Do a little Googling and you will find dozens and dozens of similar passages in both books.

Star_Cards
10-06-2011, 01:36 PM
Non-biblical references don't appear to matter in this argument either. I didn't figure it out until last night, but I believe the point that the skeptics are trying to make (though they haven't stated it very well) is that no document older than ____ can be considered factually accurate with respect to specifics like quotations, minor events, and so forth because they are too old to be reliable and have too few confirming sources.

Apparently unless there is video recording or photographic images of an event, it didn't happen. I say that in jest, but skeptics, at what point in history do you believe the veracity of anything written?

It doesn't take video or photographic evidence to prove to me that something happened. I'm not saying everything in the bible is made up. It's perfectly plausible that a man named Jesus created christianity and that he was crucified because his beliefs weren't the majority in his area. It's the more mystical and magical happenings that I am skeptical about like resurrection, immaculate conception, and things of that nature.

to bring this back to the original topic of the post... I believe there is no true religion and there is also no non-true religion. Religion, whether it's the presence of faith or the lack of faith is one's person choice and who is anyone else to say what someone else chooses to believe.

sanfran22
10-06-2011, 01:37 PM
Actually most Christians do believe in the Koran to some degree. Both the Quran and Holy Bible share many aspects.

*The Torah (first five books of the Quran) are the first five books of the Holy Bible.

*Common figures
The Qur’an and Bible have over 50 people in common, typically in the same narratives. The Qur’an identifies the prophets Job, Enoch, Imram, and Ishmael, but they are never given a story. In the Bible, all these men are identified as righteous people but not prophets — except Ishmael who is not written of favorably.

*Saul and Gideon
In the Bible, both Gideon and Saul are military leaders of Israel between the Exodus and Exile. In the Book of Judges in the Bible, Gideon is hesitant about leading the Hebrews to battle. To demonstrate God’s power, God tells Gideon to observe when the troops reach a river and whoever drinks without his hands Gideon must send home. The Hebrews later have victory.

In the Qur’an, the same event happens to Saul on the way to meet Goliath. In the Biblical account of Saul and Goliath, Saul is also hesitant about the battle with Goliath’s army.

*Noah

See Genesis 6:5-9-19 and mainly Surah 11.25-48 as well as Surahs 7.59-64, 10.71-73, 23.23-28, 26.105-121, 54.9-16, and all of 71.

I could go on. I won't. Do a little Googling and you will find dozens and dozens of similar passages in both books.

The Qur'an was written well after the OT. I believe you can draw your own conclusions.

habsheaven
10-06-2011, 01:38 PM
congratulations on your ability to call billions of people immature childish idiots.

Where did I say that? You need to learn how to read.

If I had told you how elephant trainers are able to tie an elephant to a little stake and keep him from breaking free would I be saying elephants are not strong enough to break free? Would I be saying elephants are not smart enough to break free? No, I wouldn't be saying either. Clearly elephants are smart; they can be taught all kinds of tricks. Clearly they are strong; you just have to look at their size to know that.

habsheaven
10-06-2011, 01:41 PM
The Qur'an was written well after the OT. I believe you can draw your own conclusions.

So the veracity lies in who wrote it first? Interesting!

Star_Cards
10-06-2011, 01:41 PM
congratulations on your ability to call billions of people immature childish idiots.

I don't think he said that at all or even implied it. From how I see it, he used santa claus as an example that is taught to kids but it not something that actually exists. Religion is something similar in that it's handed down from generation to generation.

sanfran22
10-06-2011, 01:42 PM
It only takes a small group of people to start a conspiracy. Over thousands of years of indoctrination it will grow quite well. I am sure you are not part of continuing the conspiracy nor are most other believers. That is the beauty of the conspiracy. Instill the belief in them when they are young and they will continue to believe even when their logically developed minds begin to question the story. Remember, there was a time you believed in Santa Claus too?

Santa Claus is a poor argument. There is Historical proof Jesus existed not just Biblical proof. Historical proof of accounts of His life.

sanfran22
10-06-2011, 01:43 PM
So the veracity lies in who wrote it first? Interesting!

Whan comparing these two books, and the two individuals, it's a pretty easy conclusion.

mrveggieman
10-06-2011, 02:00 PM
Actually most Christians do believe in the Koran to some degree. Both the Quran and Holy Bible share many aspects.

*The Torah (first five books of the Quran) are the first five books of the Holy Bible.

*Common figures
The Qur’an and Bible have over 50 people in common, typically in the same narratives. The Qur’an identifies the prophets Job, Enoch, Imram, and Ishmael, but they are never given a story. In the Bible, all these men are identified as righteous people but not prophets — except Ishmael who is not written of favorably.

*Saul and Gideon
In the Bible, both Gideon and Saul are military leaders of Israel between the Exodus and Exile. In the Book of Judges in the Bible, Gideon is hesitant about leading the Hebrews to battle. To demonstrate God’s power, God tells Gideon to observe when the troops reach a river and whoever drinks without his hands Gideon must send home. The Hebrews later have victory.

In the Qur’an, the same event happens to Saul on the way to meet Goliath. In the Biblical account of Saul and Goliath, Saul is also hesitant about the battle with Goliath’s army.

*Noah

See Genesis 6:5-9-19 and mainly Surah 11.25-48 as well as Surahs 7.59-64, 10.71-73, 23.23-28, 26.105-121, 54.9-16, and all of 71.

I could go on. I won't. Do a little Googling and you will find dozens and dozens of similar passages in both books.


Hey now watch it duane, that's blasphemy to all of our christian fanboys. Despite 95% of the bible and the koran saying the exact same thing and despite the fact that christians and muslims share 99% of the same prophets, our extreme christians friends believe and want you to believe that christanity and islam are totatlly opposite and that muslims are your enemies and want to destroy christanity and freedom for all.

Star_Cards
10-06-2011, 02:01 PM
Santa Claus is a poor argument. There is Historical proof Jesus existed not just Biblical proof. Historical proof of accounts of His life.

I can see as a whole Santa isn't exactly the same, but in the sense their claimed mystical powers I see a similarity.

mrveggieman
10-06-2011, 02:02 PM
Do you think Jesus did not get crucified? That is not historically a fact?
Here's a bunch of people that documented Jesus' existence and life. You can come to your own conclusion to if History shows Jesus was born, where he was born, if he was crucified and how......

Ancient Historians
These historians made reference to Jesus and to early Christians. Ancient pagans, Jews, and Christians wrote historic texts that mentioned Christ.

Eusebius of Caesarea - A third century theologian who used the library in Caesarea for much of his research.

Flavius Josephus - A first century Jewish historian who documented the Roman empire.

Justin Martyr - A Gentile who lived in Palestine and later became a Christian. This theologian used Greek philosophy to explain Christian doctrine.

Resources for Philo of Alexandria - A Jewish philosopher and historian who lived in the first century.

Tacitus - A first century Roman historian, who chronicled the lives of several emperors.

Tertullian - An African theologian who wrote extensively in Latin. He was first to use the word trinitas to describe the Godhead.

Good try but all of those have been proven to be forgeries.

AUTaxMan
10-06-2011, 02:04 PM
Hey now watch it duane, that's blasphemy to all of our christian fanboys. Despite 95% of the bible and the koran saying the exact same thing and despite the fact that christians and muslims share 99% of the same prophets, our extreme christians friends believe and want you to believe that christanity and islam are totatlly opposite and that muslims are your enemies and want to destroy christanity and freedom for all.

Would you please show us a little respect and refrain from namecalling, even though you disagree with us?

Your statements in this post have no basis in fact. 95%? 99%?

There are no Christian extremists here, and nobody here believes what you wrote they believe.

AUTaxMan
10-06-2011, 02:06 PM
Good try but all of those have been proven to be forgeries.

Not sure if serious.

duane1969
10-06-2011, 02:08 PM
The Qur'an was written well after the OT. I believe you can draw your own conclusions.

That wasn't the point. I don't know which was first but I do know that the two books are virtually identical which makes the whole thing kind of moot and silly.


Hey now watch it duane, that's blasphemy to all of our christian fanboys. Despite 95% of the bible and the koran saying the exact same thing and despite the fact that christians and muslims share 99% of the same prophets, our extreme christians friends believe and want you to believe that christanity and islam are totatlly opposite and that muslims are your enemies and want to destroy christanity and freedom for all.

I believe that stems from history. Muslims and Christians have been hating each other for 2000 years. Expecting it to suddenly stop because of some liberal "we are the world" movement to make Muslims more user-friendly isn't going to change that. Demonizing Christians isn't going to help matters either.

You also need to be aware that there are plenty of Muslims out there who hate Christians just because they are Christians and they believe that Christians are their enemy and want to destroy Islam. It goes both ways in this hate-fest.

habsheaven
10-06-2011, 02:11 PM
Santa Claus is a poor argument. There is Historical proof Jesus existed not just Biblical proof. Historical proof of accounts of His life.

Was I talking about Jesus? I was talking about religion.

I am not debating whether or not Jesus existed or not, maybe he did. Now if you want to debate whether or not his mamma was a virgin, or whether or not he rose from the dead; I will refer you back to the Santa Claus analogy complete with flying reindeer and time-defying deliveries.

AUTaxMan
10-06-2011, 02:11 PM
I believe that stems from history. Muslims and Christians have been hating each other for 2000 years. Expecting it to suddenly stop because of some liberal "we are the world" movement to make Muslims more user-friendly isn't going to change that. Demonizing Christians isn't going to help matters either.

You also need to be aware that there are plenty of Muslims out there who hate Christians just because they are Christians and they believe that Christians are their enemy and want to destroy Islam. It goes both ways in this hate-fest.

It's really only about 1400 years. Also, where in the world are Christians preventing the spread of Islam and executing people for not being Muslim?

habsheaven
10-06-2011, 02:15 PM
The point of my "veracity" comment concerning the Bible and Koran was meant to determine which one has more veracity in its claim as being the TRUE religion. Clearly they are not similar in that respect.

duane1969
10-06-2011, 02:16 PM
It's really only about 1400 years. Also, where in the world are Christians preventing the spread of Islam and executing people for not being Muslim?

I was generalizing on the time frame. I was thinking it was closer to 1000 years but second guessed myself.

Nowhere in the world are Christians currently killing Muslims in the same manner but that doesn't detract from the reality that a hate relationship exists between the two.

Star_Cards
10-06-2011, 02:20 PM
Was I talking about Jesus? I was talking about religion.

I am not debating whether or not Jesus existed or not, maybe he did. Now if you want to debate whether or not his mamma was a virgin, or whether or not he rose from the dead; I will refer you back to the Santa Claus analogy complete with flying reindeer and time-defying deliveries.

Off topic, but the USPS should hire Santa Claus as a consultant at the least to help turn things around.

AUTaxMan
10-06-2011, 02:21 PM
Off topic, but the USPS should hire Santa Claus as a consultant at the least to help turn things around.

I got an undelivered letter from them yesterday. Mailed it in early APRIL.

Star_Cards
10-06-2011, 02:27 PM
I got an undelivered letter from them yesterday. Mailed it in early APRIL.

ridiculous!!!

mrveggieman
10-06-2011, 02:28 PM
It's really only about 1400 years. Also, where in the world are Christians preventing the spread of Islam and executing people for not being Muslim?


I'm not sure where you live at mrtaxman but if you haven't seen any instances of christians attempting to deny muslims places to live and worship then you must live in a fantasy world. Do I need to provide more links or will you discount them because the sites are not enough to the right to your liking?

duane1969
10-06-2011, 02:32 PM
I'm not sure where you live at mrtaxman but if you haven't seen any instances of christians attempting to deny muslims places to live and worship then you must live in a fantasy world. Do I need to provide more links or will you discount them because the sites are not enough to the right to your liking?

Again, you take something that someone said, say they said something else and then attack them for it. You are sounding more and more like GBM with every post you make.

He didn't say anything about denying a home or a business. He said stopping the spread of Islam and killing Muslims.

mrveggieman
10-06-2011, 02:41 PM
Would you please show us a little respect and refrain from namecalling, even though you disagree with us?

Your statements in this post have no basis in fact. 95%? 99%?

There are no Christian extremists here, and nobody here believes what you wrote they believe.


Ok the fanboys comment may have been a little over the top but people do get all hot and bothered over their religion just like their politics which they have every right to do so. I have been accused of being everything from a liberal democrat fanboy (I have never registered as a democrat or republican for that matter a day in my life) to supporting obama only because he is black. No one cares about the fact that I disagreed with almost everything that gwb stood for and thought that it was time for some fresh blood in the white house. I take all of it with a grain of salt. I don't know anyone on here on a personal level and once I sign off of this computer for the evening I don't take any of this home with me. I do not have the exact statistics on the profits so I just made up the numbers kind of like the guy that one of ya'll quoted on here earlier did.

mrveggieman
10-06-2011, 02:44 PM
Again, you take something that someone said, say they said something else and then attack them for it. You are sounding more and more like GBM with every post you make.

He didn't say anything about denying a home or a business. He said stopping the spread of Islam and killing Muslims.


Being able to live and worship as one see fit is a right that our forefathers have fought and died for. If a man cannot live where he sees fits and worship who and or what he sees fit if he chooses to worship anything at all then what is his point of living at all?

gatorboymike
10-06-2011, 05:05 PM
There we go, calling the opposition conspiracy nuts. As if it was more nutty to believe that a handful of politically motivated religious hucksters could get together and plot to forge historical documents than it is to believe in talking snakes and an invisible, self-fathering Ronald Reagan who rules the universe from his cloud throne in the sky and is intimately concerned with what you do in the bedroom.

You want to talk about mathematical odds? What are the odds that the exact details of a real historical event could be absolutely perfectly preserved over the course of untold thousands of times being passed from person to person by word of mouth for 50-100 years, and remain absolutely perfectly preserved over the course of untold thousands more times being written down and copied and copied and copied, and remain absolutely perfectly preserved over the course of untold thousands more times being translated into and out of dozens of different languages for 300 more years? Especially when we take into account people's natural tendency to misunderstand, exaggerate, lie outright, and otherwise get things wrong. Especially when the story has had uncountable numbers of chances to mutate since it left the mouths of the people who supposedly witnessed the supposed events first-hand. Especially considering the people who lived back then were a bunch of superstitious idiots who didn't care if they were reporting accurately or not. Especially considering it was common practice for people to just make stuff up and run around claiming they had "discovered" it as the work of a famous historical figure. Especially considering that historical revisionism has been common all throughout human history (see Texas school textbooks for an example of it today). And especially considering that the story has been in the hands of people with religious and political agendas for the past 1700 years. You really want to claim that through all that, the story has remained perfectly intact and literally historically accurate? Geez, it sounds like you put more faith in each individual human who ever handled the story than you ever put in the supposed characters therein.

Then you come at us with "All the prophecies have been fulfilled! Every single one of them! And it's mathematically impossible that could happen unless magick powers were involved!" You repeat that over and over like the doubleplusgood duckspeakers that you are. Yet when asked, you can't actually name a single one of these prophecies. You have to go look them up on the Internet. How dishonest can you get? That would be like if I said the L.A. Clippers have won 162 championships, but I can't actually name a single year in which they won. And you're asked repeatedly for extrabiblical corroborating documents, and you refuse repeatedly. "Oh, I'm not going to tell you what they are. Just take my word for it that they exist." Then you finally do provide them, and it's a bunch of nonsense like Josephus. Those are all a bunch of hoaxes, forgeries, or things that said nothing more than "Christians existed."

theonedru
10-06-2011, 05:31 PM
You people do realize there are other religions out there besides Christianity right? because thats all this thread seems to have become a back and forth bashing of Christianity like what happens in almost every thread like this, lets move on and give the other religions some respect now, that is unless we are all to narrow minded to admit they exist.

habsheaven
10-06-2011, 07:36 PM
You people do realize there are other religions out there besides Christianity right? because thats all this thread seems to have become a back and forth bashing of Christianity like what happens in almost every thread like this, lets move on and give the other religions some respect now, that is unless we are all to narrow minded to admit they exist.

You do realize none of the other religions are being offered here as being the TRUE religion? By all means, get someone to come on here and tell me ISLAM is the TRUE religion and I will argue against that also.

andrewhoya
10-06-2011, 08:39 PM
It's really only about 1400 years. Also, where in the world are Christians preventing the spread of Islam and executing people for not being Muslim?

Crusades

sanfran22
10-06-2011, 08:48 PM
Crusades
Do you know anything about the crusades?

andrewhoya
10-06-2011, 09:02 PM
Do you know anything about the crusades?

Yes I do.

sanfran22
10-06-2011, 09:09 PM
Yes I do.
Then you know why they happened?

"The crusaders were reacting to over four centuries of relentless Islamic Jihad, which had wiped out over 50% of all the Christians in the world and conquered over 60% of all the Christian lands on earth – before the crusades even began. Many of the towns liberated by the crusaders were still over 90% Christian when the crusaders arrived. The Middle East was the birthplace of the Christian Church. It was the Christians who had been conquered and oppressed by the Seljuk Turks. So many of the towns in the Middle East welcomed the crusaders as liberators.
Far from the crusaders being the aggressors, it was the Muslim armies which had spread Islam from Saudi Arabia across the whole of Christian North Africa into Spain and even France within the first century after the death of Muhammad. Muslim armies sacked and slaughtered their way across some of the greatest Christian cities in the world, including Alexandria, Carthage, Antioch and Constantinople. These Muslim invaders destroyed over 3,200 Christian churches just in the first 100 years of Islam."

Now I'm not condoning them, I'm just saying that there is a revisionist version out there.

andrewhoya
10-06-2011, 09:15 PM
Then you know why they happened?

Yep. The Christians and Europeans fighting were trying to retrieve the Holy Lands that the Muslims took over while trying to stop the spread of Islam as well. Since Muslim armies had control of the major trading ports, Islam influence was being spread throughout the world by merchants and other caravan traders. Therefore, it can be seen as trying to stop or at least slow the expansion of Islam.

sanfran22
10-06-2011, 09:18 PM
Yep. The Christians and Europeans fighting were trying to retrieve the Holy Lands that the Muslims took over while trying to stop the spread of Islam as well. Since Muslim armies had control of the major trading ports, Islam influence was being spread throughout the world by merchants and other caravan traders. Therefore, it can be seen as trying to stop or at least slow the expansion of Islam.
Just one question, where did you learn that. I know you are young but I'm just curious.....

tutall
10-06-2011, 09:20 PM
Can I just ask what the big deal is.... So what if I want to believe christianity is true.... Why should veggieman be cool calling us fanboys.... Well maybe you are a homosexual fanboy or a veggie fanboy... I think you could be a broke person fanboy or a obama fanboy or a left wing nutjob fanboy or a ..... It is offensive to be honest with you. Why do you get off attacking christians then throw stones at christians for not being with you in another movement. How is hating christians and throwing names around better than me practicing what I believe on Sunday mornings in church... To be honest with you I could care less what you believe in... If you want to prayto Jack Daniels and twinkies every night before you go to bed go for it... I just cant fathom the hate you and GBM have for a group of people that have honestly probably never done a single thing to you... And if they have I apologize on their behalf but I dont think I am a bad person because I spend 2 hours a week at church.

andrewhoya
10-06-2011, 09:22 PM
Just one question, where did you learn that. I know you are young but I'm just curious.....

One of the major topics of AP World History.

Hilfiger1975
10-06-2011, 09:22 PM
Can I just ask what the big deal is.... So what if I want to believe christianity is true.... Why should veggieman be cool calling us fanboys.... Well maybe you are a homosexual fanboy or a veggie fanboy... I think you could be a broke person fanboy or a obama fanboy or a left wing nutjob fanboy or a ..... It is offensive to be honest with you. Why do you get off attacking christians then throw stones at christians for not being with you in another movement. How is hating christians and throwing names around better than me practicing what I believe on Sunday mornings in church... To be honest with you I could care less what you believe in... If you want to prayto Jack Daniels and twinkies every night before you go to bed go for it... I just cant fathom the hate you and GBM have for a group of people that have honestly probably never done a single thing to you... And if they have I apologize on their behalf but I dont think I am a bad person because I spend 2 hours a week at church.
Do you go to church 2 hours a week then torture kittens?:winking0071:

sanfran22
10-06-2011, 09:25 PM
One of the major topics of AP World History.
That, unfortunately, is what I thought. It just goes towards further proof of what I've said about our school systems in other threads....I'll get you a link to read more in depth about them if you'd like.

tutall
10-06-2011, 09:26 PM
Do you go to church 2 hours a week then torture kittens?:winking0071:

sometimes... only when the colts lose

Hilfiger1975
10-06-2011, 09:27 PM
That, unfortunately, is what I thought. It just goes towards further proof of what I've said about our school systems in other threads....I'll get you a link to read more in depth about them if you'd like.
You mean Lee Harvey Oswald didn't kill the President all by himself?

*gasp*

Hilfiger1975
10-06-2011, 09:28 PM
sometimes... only when the colts lose
Well then that's a lot lately...:winking0071:

andrewhoya
10-06-2011, 09:28 PM
That, unfortunately, is what I thought. It just goes towards further proof of what I've said about our school systems in other threads....I'll get you a link to read more in depth about them if you'd like.

It's not the school systems that we get the info from- the books written by hundreds of historians is where I got the info from.

Hilfiger1975
10-06-2011, 09:29 PM
It's not the school systems that we get the info from- the books written by hundreds of historians is where I got the info from.
bingo!

sanfran22
10-06-2011, 09:30 PM
You mean Lee Harvey Oswald didn't kill the President all by himself?

*gasp*
Lol, well that's another discussion for another day....:party0048:

Hilfiger1975
10-06-2011, 09:32 PM
Lol, well that's another discussion for another day....:party0048:
:thumb:

sanfran22
10-06-2011, 09:32 PM
It's not the school systems that we get the info from- the books written by hundreds of historians is where I got the info from.
No, it's the personal version of the History that the school system wants to be taught is were it comes form. Where did you get the info from? But that's another thread all in itself. I just tell you to look up the crusades and see why they really happened and their purpose....What you said has an ounce of truth surrounded by a bunch of watered down revison and non-truths.

andrewhoya
10-06-2011, 09:35 PM
No, it's the personal version of the History that the scholl system wants to be taught is were it comes form. But that's another thread all in itself. I just tell you to look up the crusades and see why they really happened and their purpose....What you said has an ounce of truth surrounded by a bunch of watered down revison and non-truths.

No...... It is the most accepted theory of the Crusades. Do you want me to list every single historian who contributed to the book so you can see their "credentials"? Or, do you just plan on proving them wrong yourself? I'd like to see your evidence.

sanfran22
10-06-2011, 09:40 PM
No...... It is the most accepted theory of the Crusades. Do you want me to list every single historian who contributed to the book so you can see their "credentials"? Or, do you just plan on proving them wrong yourself? I'd like to see your evidence.
Most accepted by whom? It's pretty well known that the crusades were a response to Muslim aggression. They were also a rescue mission of sorts.They were conquering Christian lands and slaughtering the masses. It was a defensive war not started by the Christians as you had insinuated. It wasn't to stop the spread of Islam. It's been shown that the Christians alot of time left the surrounding muslim people alone after they retook their cities and Holy places. Your version sounded like the Christians were the aggressors when it was actually a defensive war in the beginning.
I would like to know what the book is. Is it what the school gave you?

Hilfiger1975
10-06-2011, 09:43 PM
Most accepted by whom? It's pretty well known that the crusades were a response to Muslim aggression. They were conquering Christian lands and slaughtering the masses. it was a defensive war not started by the Christians as you had insinuated. It wasn't to stop the spread of Islam. It's been shown that the Christians alot of time left the surrounding muslim people alone after they retook their cities and Holy places. Your version sounded like the Christians were the aggressors when it was actually a defensive war in the beginning.
*gasp*

Christians have never started holy wars before...:winking0071:

andrewhoya
10-06-2011, 09:43 PM
Most accepted by whom? It's pretty well known that the crusades were a response to Muslim aggression. They were conquering Christian lands and slaughtering the masses. it was a defensive war not started by the Christians as you had insinuated. It wasn't to stop the spread of Islam. It's been shown that the Christians alot of time left the surrounding muslim people alone after they retook their cities and Holy places. Your version sounded like the Christians were the aggressors when it was actually a defensive war in the beginning.

Historians and archaeologists.

Quote from book: "....in attempt to regain the Holy lands captured by the Muslim forces in years prior...." The Christian armies started the Crusades.

sanfran22
10-06-2011, 09:46 PM
Historians and archaeologists.

Quote from book: "....in attempt to regain the Holy lands captured by the Muslim forces in years prior...." The Christian armies started the Crusades.
No, the Muslims started the war in which the Christians formed a response..... I bet Indiana Jones accepts your version though, lol ;)

sanfran22
10-06-2011, 09:47 PM
*gasp*

Christians have never started holy wars before...:winking0071:
I never said that, but in this case they didn't.

andrewhoya
10-06-2011, 09:47 PM
No, the Muslims started the war in which the Christians formed a response.....

Christians launched the war based on the events the Muslims had done.

Hilfiger1975
10-06-2011, 09:49 PM
No, the Muslims started the war in which the Christians formed a response..... I bet Indiana Jones accepts your version though, lol ;)
lol...

Hilfiger1975
10-06-2011, 09:49 PM
I never said that, but in this case they didn't.
I know i'm just pick'in with ya...lol...

sanfran22
10-06-2011, 09:51 PM
Christians launched the war based on the events the Muslims had done.
I guess if that is what you want to think. I don't know how you come to that since the Muslims were attacking them for hundreds of years forcing the Christians to turn to the offensive....So it was in response to what was being done to them, therefore defensive. Is there a fancy word for what the muslims were doing for hundreds of years?

sanfran22
10-06-2011, 09:52 PM
:party0048:
I know i'm just pick'in with ya...lol...
:humble:

andrewhoya
10-06-2011, 09:54 PM
I guess if that is what you want to think. I don't know how you come to that since the Muslims were attacking them for hundreds of years forcing the Christians to turn to the offensive....So it was in response to what was being done to them, therefore defensive. Is there a fancy word for what the muslims were doing for hundreds of years?

Extending their religion through force? Most areas they conquered simply gave up and paid tribute as they knew their armies were nothing compared to the Muslims.

sanfran22
10-06-2011, 09:57 PM
Extending their religion through force? Most areas they conquered simply gave up and paid tribute as they knew their armies were nothing compared to the Muslims.
But someone, somewhere got fed up with it and decided to not allow it anymore. Therefore it was the Muslims who caused the crusades to happen. It wasn't the intention of the Christians to "stop the spread of islam". It was to stop the killing or conversion by force. Like i said, they left a lot of them alone.
One last question and I'll be done. Who do you think was n the wrong and why?

andrewhoya
10-06-2011, 09:59 PM
But someone, somewhere got fed up with it and decided to not allow it anymore. Therefore it was the Muslims who caused the crusades to happen. It wasn't the intention of the Christians to "stop the spread of islam". It was to stop the killing or conversion by force. Like i said, they left a lot of them alone.
One last question and I'll be done. Who do you think was n the wrong and why?

I've already explained everything. If that is your belief on the Crusades, then so be it.

sanfran22
10-06-2011, 10:04 PM
I've already explained everything. If that is your belief on the Crusades, then so be it.
So you don't want to say the book name...got it. Thanks for the discussion.

joeyfan22
10-06-2011, 10:13 PM
i am a christian. If i do not believe that christianity is the only true religion (that is, that eternal life can only be gained by accepting jesus as your personal savior), then christianity has no meaning whatsoever, because jesus taught that the only way to god was through him.


^^^^ +1

tutall
10-06-2011, 10:16 PM
So you don't want to say the book name...got it. Thanks for the discussion.

If backyardigans wasnt on I would ask you for a listing of your sources and links that prove the credibility of each one... Until then I will think you two are actually arguing the same side just need to come together to find a common language to put it all together.

andrewhoya
10-07-2011, 07:44 AM
So you don't want to say the book name...got it. Thanks for the discussion.

You've got to be kidding me. You can't expect me to see the question about the book if you edit your post after I have quoted your first post and responded to it. I dont go back and re-read every post in the thread

World History 3rd edition written mostly by Univ of Pennsylvania professors.

AUTaxMan
10-07-2011, 09:32 AM
This is an interesting discussion, but what do the holy wars have to do the modern day Christianity?

mrveggieman
10-07-2011, 09:52 AM
Can I just ask what the big deal is.... So what if I want to believe christianity is true.... Why should veggieman be cool calling us fanboys.... Well maybe you are a homosexual fanboy or a veggie fanboy... I think you could be a broke person fanboy or a obama fanboy or a left wing nutjob fanboy or a ..... It is offensive to be honest with you. Why do you get off attacking christians then throw stones at christians for not being with you in another movement. How is hating christians and throwing names around better than me practicing what I believe on Sunday mornings in church... To be honest with you I could care less what you believe in... If you want to prayto Jack Daniels and twinkies every night before you go to bed go for it... I just cant fathom the hate you and GBM have for a group of people that have honestly probably never done a single thing to you... And if they have I apologize on their behalf but I dont think I am a bad person because I spend 2 hours a week at church.


Wow some people really get hot and bothered over what we talk about on P/R. As far as the fanboy remark it was not intended as a shot at christians or christanity as a whole. It was intended however as a shot at religious extremists how believe that they are superior to all others and feel that their stuff dosent stink. If you or anyone goes to church does the right thing by your family and community worships God and is a righteous person then do your thing. However if you or anyone else falsely claims to be a christian but is really an evil bigot then I'm going to clown you. As far as the other things that you suggested about me yes I am a vegetarian hence the name mrveggieman so I will wear the name veggiefanboy as a badge of honor. As far as being a homosexual fanboy as far as my religious views I believe that homosexuality is morally wrong but consenting adults should have and must have the legal right to do as they see fit in their own bedrooms. I stay out of your bedroom you stay out of mines. As far as obama yes I voted for him because I felt that it was some time for fresh blood in the white house and I will vote for him again in 2012 because I am not impressed by any of the republican canidates. Again I am not a fanboy he is just the best canidate available. As far as the broke and left wing nutjob that is not even worth a response. Again feel free to worship as you wish. I support and defend your and all of our right to freedom of religion. However if anyone wants to come on here and say that their religion is superior to all others and if you don't follow their religion exactly as they say you will be dammed to hell I will demand proof and go over any proof that they provide with a fine tooth comb. If there religion is what it say it is then it should have no problem proving such. BTW I do not hate any relgion or person because of their religion.

mrveggieman
10-07-2011, 09:56 AM
Then you know why they happened?

"The crusaders were reacting to over four centuries of relentless Islamic Jihad, which had wiped out over 50% of all the Christians in the world and conquered over 60% of all the Christian lands on earth – before the crusades even began. Many of the towns liberated by the crusaders were still over 90% Christian when the crusaders arrived. The Middle East was the birthplace of the Christian Church. It was the Christians who had been conquered and oppressed by the Seljuk Turks. So many of the towns in the Middle East welcomed the crusaders as liberators.
Far from the crusaders being the aggressors, it was the Muslim armies which had spread Islam from Saudi Arabia across the whole of Christian North Africa into Spain and even France within the first century after the death of Muhammad. Muslim armies sacked and slaughtered their way across some of the greatest Christian cities in the world, including Alexandria, Carthage, Antioch and Constantinople. These Muslim invaders destroyed over 3,200 Christian churches just in the first 100 years of Islam."

Now I'm not condoning them, I'm just saying that there is a revisionist version out there.


Come on sanfran. You yourself should know that history is always written by the victors. If the muslims would have won the crusades the story would have been that the muslims fought and won against christian agression not to mention that most of the world would have ended up as muslim and not christian. Then we would be on this discussion board hearing conservative people like yourself saying that islam is the one true religion and the koran is the only true word of god and if you are not a muslim exactly like you say that they should be that they are dammed to hell. Again we would ask you to provide proof besides what is in the koran and again you would fail to provide us with such.

sanfran22
10-07-2011, 10:08 AM
Come on sanfran. You yourself should know that history is always written by the victors. If the muslims would have one the crusades the story would have been that the muslims fought and won against christian agression not to mention that most of the world would have ended up as muslim and not christian. Then we would be on this discussion board hearing conservative people like yourself saying that islam is the one true religion and the koran is the only true word of god and if you are not a muslim exactly like you say that they should be that they are dammed to hell. Again we would ask you to provide proof besides what is in the koran and again you would fail to provide us with such.

Yeah, I guess it was just the big mean Christians that wanted to pick a fight with the hapless, peaceful muslims. Get your head out of you know where and learn something.

mrveggieman
10-07-2011, 10:19 AM
Yeah, I guess it was just the big mean Christians that wanted to pick a fight with the hapless, peaceful muslims. Get your head out of you know where and learn something.


Why dont you just for 5 seconds try be objective and put your personal biases to the side. The crusades were fought over political reasons just like all wars but they drew the foot soldiers from both sides into it because they were feed the lie that they were doing God's work. Do you honestly believe that God would sanction a war between two groups fighting over which is the correct way to worship him? Feel free to check out the wiki about the crusades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

sanfran22
10-07-2011, 10:22 AM
Here's a start if you don't want to read High School watered down revisionist history.You can make your own conclusions..
http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/11/the_truth_about_islamic_crusad.html

sanfran22
10-07-2011, 10:22 AM
Why dont you just for 5 seconds try be objective and put your personal biases to the side. The crusades were fought over political reasons just like all wars but they drew the foot soldiers from both sides into it because they were feed the lie that they were doing God's work. Do you honestly believe that God would sanction a war between two groups fighting over which is the correct way to worship him? Feel free to check out the wiki about the crusades.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

You are so off it's not funny.

mrveggieman
10-07-2011, 10:25 AM
Here's a start if you don't want to read High School watered down revisionist history.You can make your own conclusions..
http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/11/the_truth_about_islamic_crusad.html


I gave your site an honest try but when I saw the article about obama taking his defeat in the 2012 election well and it is only 2011 and the election hasn't occured yet I realized once again what type of site you were sending us to and what their agenda is.

ensbergcollector
10-07-2011, 10:26 AM
Wow some people really get hot and bothered over what we talk about on P/R. As far as the fanboy remark it was not intended as a shot at christians or christanity as a whole. It was intended however as a shot at religious extremists how believe that they are superior to all others and feel that their stuff dosent stink. If you or anyone goes to church does the right thing by your family and community worships God and is a righteous person then do your thing. However if you or anyone else falsely claims to be a christian but is really an evil bigot then I'm going to clown you. As far as the other things that you suggested about me yes I am a vegetarian hence the name mrveggieman so I will wear the name veggiefanboy as a badge of honor. As far as being a homosexual fanboy as far as my religious views I believe that homosexuality is morally wrong but consenting adults should have and must have the legal right to do as they see fit in their own bedrooms. I stay out of your bedroom you stay out of mines. As far as obama yes I voted for him because I felt that it was some time for fresh blood in the white house and I will vote for him again in 2012 because I am not impressed by any of the republican canidates. Again I am not a fanboy he is just the best canidate available. As far as the broke and left wing nutjob that is not even worth a response. Again feel free to worship as you wish. I support and defend your and all of our right to freedom of religion. However if anyone wants to come on here and say that their religion is superior to all others and if you don't follow their religion exactly as they say you will be dammed to hell I will demand proof and go over any proof that they provide with a fine tooth comb. If there religion is what it say it is then it should have no problem proving such. BTW I do not hate any relgion or person because of their religion.

dude, get off your high horse this morning. No one has said anyone is going to hell. You have pulled your "I know that is what you are thinking" so you can blast christians in faux defense of yourself. This thread was started, BY YOU, asking which religion was the one true religion. Now you act all offended by "anyone who wants to come on here and say there religion is superior." You started a thread so you could attack christians, plain and simple.

It's the same as starting a thread in the football forum and asking who everyone thinks is the best QB of all time and then acting all mad if someone actually answers the question. And as for your last sentence, feel free to read back through your comments in this thread and others. I would say it would be hard for you to back up your claim.

ensbergcollector
10-07-2011, 10:27 AM
I gave your site an honest try but when I saw the article about obama taking his defeat in the 2012 election well and it is only 2011 and the election hasn't occured yet I realized once again what type of site you were sending us to and what their agenda is.

oh yeah, cause realchange.org is an unbias website. give me a break bro.

mrveggieman
10-07-2011, 10:57 AM
dude, get off your high horse this morning. No one has said anyone is going to hell. You have pulled your "I know that is what you are thinking" so you can blast christians in faux defense of yourself. This thread was started, BY YOU, asking which religion was the one true religion. Now you act all offended by "anyone who wants to come on here and say there religion is superior." You started a thread so you could attack christians, plain and simple.

It's the same as starting a thread in the football forum and asking who everyone thinks is the best QB of all time and then acting all mad if someone actually answers the question. And as for your last sentence, feel free to read back through your comments in this thread and others. I would say it would be hard for you to back up your claim.

Why does it have to be all that? If I wanted to start a christian bashing thread I could have started something taking about how christanity is a false religion and provided links but I didnt. I as you know am not God nor a prophet so I am not here to prove nor disprove any particular religion. What you choose to worship or not to worship is between you and your god. I do have a right to ask questions and if someone wants to argue that there way of thinking is correct that they provide proof. Someone on here did admit to hating christanity. It wasn't me. I respect all religions and believe that you should have the right to worship whom or what works best for you. When it comes to pass if whom/what you worship was displeasing to God then he will judge, not you, I, sanfran22, gatorboymike, george bush, president obama, pat robertson, bin laden or any other mere mortal. Let me ask you why is it that you are getting so worked up when someone asks for nonbiblical proof that christanity is the no all end all if you believe in your heart that it is?

AUTaxMan
10-07-2011, 11:16 AM
Why does it have to be all that? If I wanted to start a christian bashing thread I could have started something taking about how christanity is a false religion and provided links but I didnt. I as you know am not God nor a prophet so I am not here to prove nor disprove any particular religion. What you choose to worship or not to worship is between you and your god. I do have a right to ask questions and if someone wants to argue that there way of thinking is correct that they provide proof. Someone on here did admit to hating christanity. It wasn't me. I respect all religions and believe that you should have the right to worship whom or what works best for you. When it comes to pass if whom/what you worship was displeasing to God then he will judge, not you, I, sanfran22, gatorboymike, george bush, president obama, pat robertson, bin laden or any other mere mortal. Let me ask you why is it that you are getting so worked up when someone asks for nonbiblical proof that christanity is the no all end all if you believe in your heart that it is?

Your question is pointless because in your mind, the answer is the same for all religions. The only point would be to attack the people who respond.

mrveggieman
10-07-2011, 11:38 AM
Your question is pointless because in your mind, the answer is the same for all religions. The only point would be to attack the people who respond.


Per some of you it dosen't matter what I think. So I put out the question to hear what people like yourself think and why you think the way you do. So mrtaxman please don't be offended but I am going to put you on the hotseat. Please provide credible non biblical evidence showing that the bible is the one and only true word of god and that christanity is the one and only true religion. Your boy sanfran22 already admitted that he cannot provide such, I am still waiting to hear from you. I promise that I will go to any links you provide and review them objectively and unbiasedly and get back to you with my reviews. So are you up to the challenge? What do you have to be afraid of? I'm just a regular guy on the other end of the computer.

sanfran22
10-07-2011, 11:43 AM
Per some of you it dosen't matter what I think. So I put out the question to hear what people like yourself think and why you think the way you do. So mrtaxman please don't be offended but I am going to put you on the hotseat. Please provide credible non biblical evidence showing that the bible is the one and only true word of god and that christanity is the one and only true religion. Your boy sanfran22 already admitted that he cannot provide such, I am still waiting to hear from you. I promise that I will go to any links you provide and review them objectively and unbiasedly and get back to you with my reviews. So are you up to the challenge? What do you have to be afraid of? I'm just a regular guy on the other end of the computer.

As stated before, there is only one religion that prophecies have been fulfilled. There is documented evidence both historically and Biblically that some of these occurred. That is a form of proof IMO. Taxman has shown the probability of just one coming true. That's pretty compelling. It also requires Faith. What more do you need? There is no book that says Christianity is the one truth except one, but that book seems to get dismissed by the non-believers.

AUTaxMan
10-07-2011, 11:44 AM
Per some of you it dosen't matter what I think. So I put out the question to hear what people like yourself think and why you think the way you do. So mrtaxman please don't be offended but I am going to put you on the hotseat. Please provide credible non biblical evidence showing that the bible is the one and only true word of god and that christanity is the one and only true religion. Your boy sanfran22 already admitted that he cannot provide such, I am still waiting to hear from you. I promise that I will go to any links you provide and review them objectively and unbiasedly and get back to you with my reviews. So are you up to the challenge? What do you have to be afraid of? I'm just a regular guy on the other end of the computer.

I need to know your criteria. What do you consider credible and objective? I am not going to be able to show you any television footage of Jesus speaking, nor am I going to have photographic evidence of his crucifixion or any newspaper articles from the day.

mrveggieman
10-07-2011, 11:55 AM
I need to know your criteria. What do you consider credible and objective? I am not going to be able to show you any television footage of Jesus speaking, nor am I going to have photographic evidence of his crucifixion or any newspaper articles from the day.


Obviouly you can't show that but start with someting scientific like archelogical reports from an objective and non biased source. Look around take your time and feel free to post whatever you find. If your information is relevant and credible you should have no problem with us going over it with a find tooth comb for any flaws. We look forward to reading your posts.

mrveggieman
10-07-2011, 12:04 PM
As stated before, there is only one religion that prophecies have been fulfilled. There is documented evidence both historically and Biblically that some of these occurred. That is a form of proof IMO. Taxman has shown the probability of just one coming true. That's pretty compelling. It also requires Faith. What more do you need? There is no book that says Christianity is the one truth except one, but that book seems to get dismissed by the non-believers.


My point exactly. All religion requires faith that is why it is religion. Don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with faith but it goes back to saying that there is no way you can convience someone without a shadow of a doubt that one particular relgion is better than another. I respect you for having your faith but it is what it is. Showing some guying spewing off a bunch of meaningless numbers does nothing for me. Fox news does it everyday.

sanfran22
10-07-2011, 12:06 PM
So you ask for proof from the scientific world which is like 90% theory. Prove to me a rock is 2 billion years old objectively.......lol.

sanfran22
10-07-2011, 12:07 PM
My point exactly. All religion requires faith that is why it is religion. Don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with faith but it goes back to saying that there is no way you can convience someone without a shadow of a doubt that one particular relgion is better than another. I respect you for having your faith but it is what it is. Showing some guying spewing off a bunch of meaningless numbers does nothing for me. Fox news does it everyday.

My point was no other religion has fulfilled prophecy. That should point to something.

mrveggieman
10-07-2011, 12:07 PM
So you ask for proof from the scientific world which is like 90% theory. Prove to me a rock is 2 billion years old objectively.......lol.


That shouldn't be a problem for you if your religion is what you claim it to be.

sanfran22
10-07-2011, 12:08 PM
That shouldn't be a problem for you if your religion is what you claim it to be.

A rock is not 2 billion years old, but that's for another time. You missed my point.

Hilfiger1975
10-07-2011, 12:09 PM
Here's the definition of Faith:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith

On that note, i've got faith that i'm going to become a millionaire someday, but that does not mean it's truth or gonna happen...

sanfran22
10-07-2011, 12:11 PM
Here's the definition of Faith:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith

On that note, i've got faith that i'm going to become a million someday, but that does not mean it's truth or gonna happen...

I know it's not gonna happen because you'll be taxed "fairly"....:party0048:

Hilfiger1975
10-07-2011, 12:14 PM
I know it's not gonna happen because you'll be taxed "fairly"....:party0048:
Damn government! :winking0071:

mrveggieman
10-07-2011, 12:15 PM
My point was no other religion has fulfilled prophecy. That should point to something.


Habs has asked this on several questions and each of you have ignored him so mabey ya'll will respond if I ask it but what prophecies are you referring to? You mentioned that there are 48 of them. Can you mention at least 1 of them? We are hitting a bump in the road when you say the OT predicted XYZ and it came to pass in the NT. That proves nothing. You are trying to prove that the entire bible is true. Anyone can write a series of books and say in book 1 men will start to turn green and in book seven it comes to pass. It dosen't make it true. Again what we are asking for is objective scientific proof of the bible being the true word of God. If you cannot provide it to us it is ok. You still have the right to believe what you believe just like we still have the right to question what you believe, why you believe it and demand proof when you make claims.

habsheaven
10-07-2011, 12:19 PM
So you ask for proof from the scientific world which is like 90% theory. Prove to me a rock is 2 billion years old objectively.......lol.

Really??? 90% theory??? The other 10% must be the MATH quoted on here.

Clearly the rocks on this planet cannot be 2 billion years old. They are only a few days older/younger than Adam and the T-rex. I know. I read the prophecy about it awhile back.:rolleyes:

sanfran22
10-07-2011, 12:20 PM
Habs has asked this on several questions and each of you have ignored him so mabey ya'll will respond if I ask it but what prophecies are you referring to? You mentioned that there are 48 of them. Can you mention at least 1 of them? We are hitting a bump in the road when you say the OT predicted XYZ and it came to pass in the NT. That proves nothing. You are trying to prove that the entire bible is true. Anyone can write a series of books and say in book 1 men will start to turn green and in book seven it comes to pass. It dosen't make it true. Again what we are asking for is objective scientific proof of the bible being the true word of God. If you cannot provide it to us it is ok. You still have the right to believe what you believe just like we still have the right to question what you believe, why you believe it and demand proof when you make claims.

I believe several were mentioned. Please explain how you think a book written hundreds of years before accurately predicted events to occur hundreds of years later? Did someone go back and use a #2 pencil and erase the text? Did they chip off the stone tablet?We are not talking about the Mayans here who's crap didn't happen, lol.

sanfran22
10-07-2011, 12:21 PM
Really??? 90% theory??? The other 10% must be the MATH quoted on here.

Clearly the rocks on this planet cannot be 2 billion years old. They are only a few days older/younger than Adam and the T-rex. I know. I read the prophecy about it awhile back.:rolleyes:

How do we know they are 2 billion years old? Simple question.

AUTaxMan
10-07-2011, 12:21 PM
Habs has asked this on several questions and each of you have ignored him so mabey ya'll will respond if I ask it but what prophecies are you referring to? You mentioned that there are 48 of them. Can you mention at least 1 of them? We are hitting a bump in the road when you say the OT predicted XYZ and it came to pass in the NT. That proves nothing. You are trying to prove that the entire bible is true. Anyone can write a series of books and say in book 1 men will start to turn green and in book seven it comes to pass. It dosen't make it true. Again what we are asking for is objective scientific proof of the bible being the true word of God. If you cannot provide it to us it is ok. You still have the right to believe what you believe just like we still have the right to question what you believe, why you believe it and demand proof when you make claims.

Please actually read the material posted earlier in the thread about exactly where the numbers came from and critique them. It is the link to the source document of the numbers. I am not going to link it again.

mrveggieman
10-07-2011, 12:28 PM
Please actually read the material posted earlier in the thread about exactly where the numbers came from and critique them. It is the link to the source document of the numbers. I am not going to link it again.


Yes I read the link. The guy was speaking on the scientific probablity of the things occuring in the bible. One could actually look at it as proof that the bible is false and that there are no way those things could actually occur. The guy is only giving theory and opinion and he has failed to provide any hard facts proving any biblical argument.

AUTaxMan
10-07-2011, 12:30 PM
Yes I read the link. The guy was speaking on the scientific probablity of the things occuring in the bible. One could actually look at it as proof that the bible is false and that there are no way those things could actually occur. The guy is only giving theory and opinion and he has failed to provide any hard facts proving any biblical argument.

You wanted a list of the actual prophesies. They were listed in the linked source.

habsheaven
10-07-2011, 01:01 PM
How do we know they are 2 billion years old? Simple question.

You and I don't know, but I am sure people with a lot higher intelligence than us have made an educated guess based on a wealth of data. Similar people came up with this THEORY* that the Earth is round. I don't know if this is true either, I have seen pictures and such but haven't had the good fortune to travel to space myself.

Maybe it's a world-wide conspiracy being perpetrated by 1000's of people over the last 100 years?

*Hmmm ... is that the 90% or 10%??

sanfran22
10-07-2011, 01:02 PM
You and I don't know, but I am sure people with a lot higher intelligence than us have made an educated guess based on a wealth of data. Similar people came up with this THEORY* that the Earth is round. I don't know if this is true either, I have seen pictures and such but haven't had the good fortune to travel to space myself.

Maybe it's a world-wide conspiracy being perpetrated by 1000's of people over the last 100 years?

*Hmmm ... is that the 90% or 10%??

Yeah, Thanks for the input. Made my point.

habsheaven
10-07-2011, 01:08 PM
You wanted a list of the actual prophesies. They were listed in the linked source.

I found the link. It lists 315. Which 48 came true?

Is #1 "virgin birth" one of them? How was this proven to be true?

habsheaven
10-07-2011, 01:10 PM
Yeah, Thanks for the input. Made my point.

You didn't make any point. You avoided mine.

Here's a simple question back at you. How old do you think the oldest rocks on this planet are?

otsegoflake
10-07-2011, 01:31 PM
I found the link. It lists 315. Which 48 came true?

Is #1 "virgin birth" one of them? How was this proven to be true?
I'm not an expert on the subject, so take this with a grain of salt, but the shroud of Turin was found to have female DNA, which would be correct in the event of a virgin-born male. But, like everything else, it's just another theory.

habsheaven
10-07-2011, 01:55 PM
I'm not an expert on the subject, so take this with a grain of salt, but the shroud of Turin was found to have female DNA, which would be correct in the event of a virgin-born male. But, like everything else, it's just another theory.

Can we get real. Can you PROVE the shroud of Turin is what some people say it is? Can you PROVE the DNA found on the shroud belongs to the individual in the shroud? Could the female DNA belong to a female?

You really can't offer PROOF of something with MORE UNPROVABLE statements.

otsegoflake
10-07-2011, 02:05 PM
Can we get real. Can you PROVE the shroud of Turin is what some people say it is? Can you PROVE the DNA found on the shroud belongs to the individual in the shroud? Could the female DNA belong to a female?

You really can't offer PROOF of something with MORE UNPROVABLE statements.
Didn't read the first or last sentences at all, did you? No matter what you believe, it all boils down to theories. Some more credible than others, but in the end, just theories. I wasn't trying to prove anything but it's not an invalid point either. Would it matter if it were proven? Even if it is Jesus, it still doesn't 100% prove God's existence.

habsheaven
10-07-2011, 02:12 PM
Didn't read the first or last sentences at all, did you? No matter what you believe, it all boils down to theories. Some more credible than others, but in the end, just theories. I wasn't trying to prove anything but it's not an invalid point either. Would it matter if it were proven? Even if it is Jesus, it still doesn't 100% prove God's existence.

I read your entire post. You quoted a post of mine asking for PROOF of a virgin birth, then you offered another theory. Pointless.

You may as well have posted "Nope, can't offer any proof."

otsegoflake
10-07-2011, 02:26 PM
I read your entire post. You quoted a post of mine asking for PROOF of a virgin birth, then you offered another theory. Pointless.

You may as well have posted "Nope, can't offer any proof."

No but it was something. At least I didn't go the "It's in the Bible and the Bible's true 'cause God said so" route.

What is there really any proof of other than the fact that we live and we die? The only people who know for sure are dead.

Star_Cards
10-07-2011, 02:37 PM
No but it was something. At least I didn't go the "It's in the Bible and the Bible's true 'cause God said so" route.

What is there really any proof of other than the fact that we live and we die? The only people who know for sure are dead.

there's proof of a lot of things. I wouldn't call how "babies are made" a theory. I'll side with the fact that the birth mother of a child is never a virgin 100% of the time.

Hilfiger1975
10-07-2011, 02:45 PM
there's proof of a lot of things. I wouldn't call how "babies are made" a theory. I'll side with the fact that the birth mother of a child is never a virgin 100% of the time.
Words from long ago meant totally different things then they do now. "Virgin" back then, i THINK meant without kids, not without sex...

Star_Cards
10-07-2011, 02:48 PM
I'll also bet everything that I own that the birth father of said baby would be another man and not a god.

Hilfiger1975
10-07-2011, 02:51 PM
I'll also bet everything that I own that the birth father of said baby would be another man and not a god.
People's thinking and logic was also "off" back then...that's pretty apparent with the Salem Witch Trails and that was only 400 years ago. So what makes people think that if could be any different thousands of years ago?

otsegoflake
10-07-2011, 02:56 PM
there's proof of a lot of things. I wouldn't call how "babies are made" a theory. I'll side with the fact that the birth mother of a child is never a virgin 100% of the time.
lol. Well that's most certainly true but you know what I meant.

otsegoflake
10-07-2011, 03:00 PM
Words from long ago meant totally different things then they do now. "Virgin" back then, i THINK meant without kids, not without sex...
Unmarried.

Star_Cards
10-07-2011, 03:10 PM
People's thinking and logic was also "off" back then...that's pretty apparent with the Salem Witch Trails and that was only 400 years ago. So what makes people think that if could be any different thousands of years ago?

I get that people back then would think differently as they had no knowledge of a lot of things that we have today. The baffling thing is that people even with all of the knowledge that we have still want believe things that were so mysterious hundreds of years ago.

take Jesus' resurrection. A more plausible idea to me is that he was buried in the cave and at some point his followers came and took his body and buried it how they saw fit. If I buried a person somewhere and went back and the body was gone the last thing I would think given what I know today would be that this person had be resurrected. Besides, if a body is just a vessel for the soul why would his body need to be resurrected? I know this is rather off topic, but just a specific item where I'd think people's opinions could become more informed and rational than what people were back then given that we've become way more knowledgable.

mrveggieman
10-07-2011, 03:11 PM
Well said people. Also check out the following links as "gasp" proof that the story of jesus could have been borrowed from other religions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ_in_comparative_mythology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5b.htm
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070907194328AAd6rQc

If anyone has anything to dispute any of the following please provide. Thanks.

habsheaven
10-07-2011, 03:15 PM
My whole point was: you can't include this prophecy as one of the 48 TRUE ones about Jesus, if you can't prove it actually happened.

I am willing to bet there are another dozen or so that are not provable, and probably a couple dozen that are so ambiguous that they can be interpreted any way needed to make them provable.

otsegoflake
10-07-2011, 03:18 PM
Well said people. Also check out the following links as "gasp" proof that the story of jesus could have been borrowed from other religions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ_in_comparative_mythology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horus
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5b.htm
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070907194328AAd6rQc

If anyone has anything to dispute any of the following please provide. Thanks.
You can read that in any text book. I'm a Christian and even I have a hard time believing that people reject these notions.

EDIT: Thanks for posting these, btw.

mrveggieman
10-07-2011, 03:31 PM
You can read that in any text book. I'm a Christian and even I have a hard time believing that people reject these notions.

EDIT: Thanks for posting these, btw.

It's all good. Believe it or not I am a christian too. The reason why I am posting these links as well as made the arguments that I did is to show that as long as we are on earth until the day that God or his appointed representative comes down here there is no way whatsover that anyone can lay claim and to having the right religion. You can pick any religion you like including but not limited to christanity and expose the holes in their argument. If there was really one perfect religion then everyone would follow it and all other religions would cease to exist. People want to be so fanatical about theirs but cannot provide any proof of why they are. Don't get me wrong having faith in a higher power can be a good thing but using your faith to claim moral superiority is plain wrong.

habsheaven
10-07-2011, 03:33 PM
I get that people back then would think differently as they had no knowledge of a lot of things that we have today. The baffling thing is that people even with all of the knowledge that we have still want believe things that were so mysterious hundreds of years ago.

take Jesus' resurrection. A more plausible idea to me is that he was buried in the cave and at some point his followers came and took his body and buried it how they saw fit. If I buried a person somewhere and went back and the body was gone the last thing I would think given what I know today would be that this person had be resurrected. Besides, if a body is just a vessel for the soul why would his body need to be resurrected? I know this is rather off topic, but just a specific item where I'd think people's opinions could become more informed and rational than what people were back then given that we've become way more knowledgable.

You cannot expect people to think rationally about the details of every story. They fear that to do so would cast doubt on the whole premise. Where would that leave them? With religion you have to buy in to the whole concept.

They have spent countless years trying to conform current day's knowledge with the stories in the Bible. It reminds me of the classic wrongful conviction case where the police make an arrest and then set out to gather the evidence to fit their suspect rather than letting the evidence reveal the truth.

andrewhoya
10-07-2011, 05:28 PM
This is an interesting discussion, but what do the holy wars have to do the modern day Christianity?

Nothing, really.

gatorboymike
10-07-2011, 07:10 PM
LOL, and Christians pretend they are not anti-science.

And has anybody picked up on how this discussion is starting to sound like a tape recording?

"Christianity is true because only Christianity has fulfilled prophecies!"
"Well, the problem with your so-called fulfilled prophecies is X, Y and Z."
"Christianity is true because only Christianity has fulfilled prophecies!"
"Maybe you didn't understand. The problem with the prophecies is this."
"Christianity is true because only Christianity has fulfilled prophecies!"
"Are you listening to me? I just explained why you can't reasonably claim that."
"Christianity is true because only Christianity has fulfilled prophecies!"
"OK, now I know you're not listening."
"Christianity is true because only Christianity has fulfilled prophecies!"

Of course, if I were to point out every time Christians here misused the word "theory" in a scientific context, I would sound like that too.

Then they bray and screech on and on about faith, as if faith were a virtue. The original question in this thread was about how you know if a religion is true. Well, faith is the exact opposite of proof. You don't use faith in any other context in life, and you don't accept faith claims from any other religions. That just shows you really do understand how worthless faith is when trying to obtain knowledge about the world, but you've given yourself special permission to use it in the context of your religion because you know that's all you'll ever have.

And by the way, not coming out and saying you think non-Christians will go to hell doesn't change the fact that Christianity explicitly says non-Christians will go to hell. Don't insult our intelligence. Unless you don't agree with that particular teaching of your religion, but you haven't said that. That's like if somebody proudly identified himself as a skinhead, but when questioned about it, he threw up his hands defensively and said, "Whoa, I never said I hate other races!"

andrewhoya
10-07-2011, 07:12 PM
LOL, and Christians pretend they are not anti-science.

And has anybody picked up on how this discussion is starting to sound like a tape recording?

"Christianity is true because only Christianity has fulfilled prophecies!"
"Well, the problem with your so-called fulfilled prophecies is X, Y and Z."
"Christianity is true because only Christianity has fulfilled prophecies!"
"Maybe you didn't understand. The problem with the prophecies is this."
"Christianity is true because only Christianity has fulfilled prophecies!"
"Are you listening to me? I just explained why you can't reasonably claim that."
"Christianity is true because only Christianity has fulfilled prophecies!"
"OK, now I know you're not listening."
"Christianity is true because only Christianity has fulfilled prophecies!"

Of course, if I were to point out every time Christians here misused the word "theory" in a scientific context, I would sound like that too.
Kind of a broad statement to make.

GeddonM3
10-10-2011, 09:33 PM
well its a loaded question for sure, but ill try and answer it to the best of my abilities.

if we are talking about todays religions that have anything to do with Jesus Christ it would obviously have to be Christianity. Christianity was what Jesus taught.

Baptists,Mormons,Islam all came way way after Christianity and they all got their ideas from christianity but twisted it to make their own version.

keep in mind im just speaking about the religions that exist today for the most part.

id say the most true to yourself religion though is Buddism(sp?) .

theonedru
10-10-2011, 09:44 PM
well its a loaded question for sure, but ill try and answer it to the best of my abilities.

if we are talking about todays religions that have anything to do with Jesus Christ it would obviously have to be Christianity. Christianity was what Jesus taught.

Baptists,Mormons,Islam all came way way after Christianity and they all got their ideas from christianity but twisted it to make their own version.

keep in mind im just speaking about the religions that exist today for the most part.

id say the most true to yourself religion though is Buddism(sp?) .

Hinduism is the oldest of the major religions predating Christianity by thousands of years as well as Judaism by who knows so they should get a nod here.

GeddonM3
10-10-2011, 09:48 PM
Hinduism is the oldest of the major religions predating Christianity by thousands of years as well as Judaism by who knows so they should get a nod here.


im just going by Abrahamic type religions. but yes Hindu's do have a big advantage being as they have lasted many years longer thus far.

mrveggieman
10-11-2011, 10:51 AM
So what have we learned so far? Is there a such thing as a true religion? Is anyone going to step foward with scientific proof that their proclaimed religion is the one true religion?

sanfran22
10-11-2011, 10:55 AM
So what have we learned so far? Is there a such thing as a true religion? Is anyone going to step foward with scientific proof that their proclaimed religion is the one true religion?

Scientific proof, lol.......Talk about an oxymoron.

mrveggieman
10-11-2011, 11:19 AM
Scientific proof, lol.......Talk about an oxymoron.


It looks like we need not go any further with this discussion. Our good friend sanfran22 summed it all up with his last post. :winking0071:

duane1969
10-11-2011, 12:00 PM
Expecting scientific proof of religion is counter-intuitive.

Religion is faith-based. Science is theory-based. That is as close as the two come to each other.

GeddonM3
10-11-2011, 02:27 PM
It looks like we need not go any further with this discussion. Our good friend sanfran22 summed it all up with his last post. :winking0071:


well in a sense how so? science has neither proved the existance or even non existance of any god in the history of man lol.

there is as much bad you can say about science as there is about religion when asking for 100% proof of anything dealing with this.

gatorboymike
10-11-2011, 03:20 PM
well in a sense how so? science has neither proved the existance or even non existance of any god in the history of man lol.

It's not science's job to do either. It's religion's job to prove that its respective gods exist, and it's impossible to prove they don't. And if you're going the same place most people go when they say this ("We know absolutely nothing whatsoever either way, so the odds are EXACTLY 50/50, and you just need to shut up and let me believe whatever I want"), I'll just say you should look up "null hypothesis" and "burden of proof." Also, I'll say that "You can't prove me wrong!" is the worst argument anyone can ever make for anything, used exclusively by desperate people with nothing backing them up, who know darn well that they are desperate and have nothing backing them up.


there is as much bad you can say about science as there is about religion when asking for 100% proof of anything dealing with this.

No there isn't. Science rejects the notion of 100% proof. Science never says anything is 100% proven, because anything could be overturned by future discoveries. What science does say is "Here's how certain we are about this issue, here's our evidence as to why we are that certain, and here's what we don't know yet." Religion is the institution that claims absolute certainty, and paradoxically, because it always does so with absolutely nothing to back it up, and refuses to admit it was ever wrong. What religion says is "We already know we're absolutely right, and that's all there is to it. We know it because we just know it. Now shut up and obey us and give us all your money, or we will hurt you."

Also, I reiterate my assertion that Christians are anti-science, as I think our good buddy sanfran just demonstrated.

mrveggieman
10-11-2011, 03:58 PM
well in a sense how so? science has neither proved the existance or even non existance of any god in the history of man lol.

there is as much bad you can say about science as there is about religion when asking for 100% proof of anything dealing with this.


I was trying to be sarcastic with the previous poster but I agree that scientifically speaking you can neither prove nor can you disprove God or any particular religion. However some of our more conservative viewers on here will never accept this.

GeddonM3
10-11-2011, 04:23 PM
It's not science's job to do either. It's religion's job to prove that its respective gods exist, and it's impossible to prove they don't. And if you're going the same place most people go when they say this ("We know absolutely nothing whatsoever either way, so the odds are EXACTLY 50/50, and you just need to shut up and let me believe whatever I want"), I'll just say you should look up "null hypothesis" and "burden of proof." Also, I'll say that "You can't prove me wrong!" is the worst argument anyone can ever make for anything, used exclusively by desperate people with nothing backing them up, who know darn well that they are desperate and have nothing backing them up.



No there isn't. Science rejects the notion of 100% proof. Science never says anything is 100% proven, because anything could be overturned by future discoveries. What science does say is "Here's how certain we are about this issue, here's our evidence as to why we are that certain, and here's what we don't know yet." Religion is the institution that claims absolute certainty, and paradoxically, because it always does so with absolutely nothing to back it up, and refuses to admit it was ever wrong. What religion says is "We already know we're absolutely right, and that's all there is to it. We know it because we just know it. Now shut up and obey us and give us all your money, or we will hurt you."

Also, I reiterate my assertion that Christians are anti-science, as I think our good buddy sanfran just demonstrated.

its nobodies true job to try and prove the existence of a god or gods, whether you go about that all on your own is your business honestly. religion is nothing more than a faith based belief, which of course there is nothing wrong with because a lil faith no matter what you may believe in cant hurt anyone. but i find it odd that the science crazed and non believers of religion are the ones saying nothing of the sort exists, yet they have no true proof but they also speak of it as certain.....but then tell the religious they have to prove it or its not real lol.

basically this pendulum swings both ways, nobody can prove or disprove anything as far as religion goes. i just wish people would stop arguing about it honestly lol, just live and let live and we will find out in the end.

and im sorry but its a very blanket statement to say christians dont believe in science, if they didnt why would they be teaching science and such in private christian schools? from what i can see you are speaking of the very few "creationists" who think the world just began 10,000 years ago and somehow man walked with raptors without getting eaten lol.

you will find most christians are very involved in science and dont think of it as the devil, but of course like every walk of life there are some nutcases.

GeddonM3
10-11-2011, 04:24 PM
I was trying to be sarcastic with the previous poster but I agree that scientifically speaking you can neither prove nor can you disprove God or any particular religion. However some of our more conservative viewers on here will never accept this.


ah my bad and agreed.

theonedru
10-11-2011, 05:26 PM
I was trying to be sarcastic with the previous poster but I agree that scientifically speaking you can neither prove nor can you disprove God or any particular religion. However some of our more conservative viewers on here will never accept this.

Thats why its called faith, its not about proving or disproving anything

gatorboymike
10-11-2011, 05:35 PM
its nobodies true job to try and prove the existence of a god or gods, whether you go about that all on your own is your business honestly. religion is nothing more than a faith based belief, which of course there is nothing wrong with because a lil faith no matter what you may believe in cant hurt anyone. but i find it odd that the science crazed and non believers of religion are the ones saying nothing of the sort exists, yet they have no true proof but they also speak of it as certain.....but then tell the religious they have to prove it or its not real lol.

It is the religious people's job to prove their god exists, because they make a factual claim about it and expect people to serve and obey them because of it. And a little faith can't hurt anyone? Tell that to the people who die in suicide bombings because somebody had "a little faith." Also, nice strawman argument and kudos on ignoring my entire point in my last post.


basically this pendulum swings both ways, nobody can prove or disprove anything as far as religion goes. i just wish people would stop arguing about it honestly lol, just live and let live and we will find out in the end.

The religious are never going to "live and let live." They are explicitly commanded by their scriptures and preachers to conquer the world and enslave the minds of every single person on it. Therefore I will do no such thing either.


and im sorry but its a very blanket statement to say christians dont believe in science, if they didnt why would they be teaching science and such in private christian schools? from what i can see you are speaking of the very few "creationists" who think the world just began 10,000 years ago and somehow man walked with raptors without getting eaten lol.

you will find most christians are very involved in science and dont think of it as the devil, but of course like every walk of life there are some nutcases.

The "science" that is taught in private Christian schools is creationism. Creationist nutcases are not an extreme minority as you either ignorantly or dishonestly attempt to portray, but the vast, overpowering majority. Recent surveys have indicated that 60% of Americans believe in creationism. And since 75-80% of Americans self-identify as Christians, that means there are 3-4 times as many creationist nutcase Christians as there are who support science.

GeddonM3
10-11-2011, 07:42 PM
It is the religious people's job to prove their god exists, because they make a factual claim about it and expect people to serve and obey them because of it. And a little faith can't hurt anyone? Tell that to the people who die in suicide bombings because somebody had "a little faith." Also, nice strawman argument and kudos on ignoring my entire point in my last post.

i didnt ignore anything, was just simply stating how it is. you on the other hand are speaking like you want to start a religious war lol.breath and calm yourself. its just what they believe,plain and simple, they dont have to prove anything to anyone and especially not you. if they choose to believe then fine, and if you dont or anyone else doesnt then just say it and walk off, nobody is forcing you to believe in anything you dont want to.

heck i was raised catholic, im not gonna talk what i believe in but i myself CHOSE not to follow the catholic faith and nobody came at me with hate or vitriol like i see manifesting in your post. nobody tries to tell me what to believe in whether it be my catholic friends, baptists,muslim or even atheist buddies. we have discussions but they dont get heated like you are being. slow your role, stop comin at me like im the enemy.

and as far as the suicide bombings and such, you act like every person of a faith is some psychopath with a mission to kill kill kill. if people of faith were like you percieved them this world would be done for. as i know incidents like that are very very bad and happen too often IN THE MIDDLE EAST WAR ZONES, show me where thats going on here please.





The religious are never going to "live and let live." They are explicitly commanded by their scriptures and preachers to conquer the world and enslave the minds of every single person on it. Therefore I will do no such thing either.

lol ok buddy, you are going off the deep end. once again nobody is forcing you to do anything here. i havent been forced and even rejected a part of my religion i grew up with and i havent come under any fire like you speak. you are just taking things a bit too far and over exaggerating things.






The "science" that is taught in private Christian schools is creationism. Creationist nutcases are not an extreme minority as you either ignorantly or dishonestly attempt to portray, but the vast, overpowering majority. Recent surveys have indicated that 60% of Americans believe in creationism. And since 75-80% of Americans self-identify as Christians, that means there are 3-4 times as many creationist nutcase Christians as there are who support science.

LOL HAHAHA shows what you know. i went to 3 private schools and not an ounce of this "creationism" was ever taught in classes. we were taught about evolution,atoms and stars and even ZOMG the big bang theory. and please show me where you got the idea that 60% of christians believe in creationism lol, id love to see that. please show me a link to that horse poopy lol.

and sorry once again you are making straight up lies just because the majority of this country is christian. kinda goes against your whole "OMG the christians are making me read a bible" stuff you are spewing out your mouth which is a complete fallacy.

please show me links to your claims, after all since you wanna make such statements you have to PROVE IT correct? so come on, show me them stats lol.

gatorboymike
10-11-2011, 08:04 PM
i didnt ignore anything, was just simply stating how it is. you on the other hand are speaking like you want to start a religious war lol.breath and calm yourself. its just what they believe,plain and simple, they dont have to prove anything to anyone and especially not you. if they choose to believe then fine, and if you dont or anyone else doesnt then just say it and walk off, nobody is forcing you to believe in anything you dont want to.

Their religion instructs them to try and convert me. If they want me to join their religion, they have to prove it. There are lots of people who join these religions without demanding proof of what religious people say, and that is very gullible and unwise. Some people actually care whether the things we believe are true. Of course, if they don't care if I join or not, all they have to do is say so, and I'll drop that point. Of course, if they don't care if I join or not, that means they're perfectly fine with me going to hell, which as far as I'm concerned makes them depraved and callous beyond recognition.


and as far as the suicide bombings and such, you act like every person of a faith is some psychopath with a mission to kill kill kill. if people of faith were like you percieved them this world would be done for. as i know incidents like that are very very bad and happen too often IN THE MIDDLE EAST WAR ZONES, show me where thats going on here please.

Not every person of faith is a psychopath, but only because not every person of faith actually believes what their religion says. Examine any religious person who is a murderous psychopath and you'll find they all have one thing in common, regardless of their religion: they REALLY BELIEVE what their religion says. And if you want to suggest that it's only Muslims that do evil things on behalf of their religion, and that Christians never do...I'm sure veggieman can provide you with evidence to the contrary.


LOL HAHAHA shows what you know. i went to 3 private schools and not an ounce of this "creationism" was ever taught in classes. we were taught about evolution,atoms and stars and even ZOMG the big bang theory. and please show me where you got the idea that 60% of christians believe in creationism lol, id love to see that. please show me a link to that horse poopy lol.

You must not be from the south then. You can hardly take a step into ex-Confederate territory without ending up neck-deep in creationism. Speaking of which, here's your horse poopy, Sunny Jim. Grab a shovel.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/114544/darwin-birthday-believe-evolution.aspx
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/god-and-country/2009/02/11/gallup-darwins-birthday-poll-fewer-than-four-in-ten-believe-in-evolution
http://ncse.com/news/2011/04/polling-creationism-evolution-around-world-006634


and sorry once again you are making straight up lies just because the majority of this country is christian. kinda goes against your whole "OMG the christians are making me read a bible" stuff you are spewing out your mouth which is a complete fallacy.

please show me links to your claims, after all since you wanna make such statements you have to PROVE IT correct? so come on, show me them stats lol.

Read above. Although I suspect you won't even bother, since you demand proof in the same breath as you call me a liar. And I never said anything about Christians making me read a Bible, so nice putting words in my mouth. Isn't that a form of lying? You don't want to be treated like the enemy, then stop making an enemy of yourself.

GeddonM3
10-11-2011, 08:37 PM
Their religion instructs them to try and convert me. If they want me to join their religion, they have to prove it. There are lots of people who join these religions without demanding proof of what religious people say, and that is very gullible and unwise. Some people actually care whether the things we believe are true. Of course, if they don't care if I join or not, all they have to do is say so, and I'll drop that point. Of course, if they don't care if I join or not, that means they're perfectly fine with me going to hell, which as far as I'm concerned makes them depraved and callous beyond recognition.

just say no and simply walk away, its all i do and i never hear another peep. to me it sounds like you love the confrontation just to argue.




Not every person of faith is a psychopath, but only because not every person of faith actually believes what their religion says. Examine any religious person who is a murderous psychopath and you'll find they all have one thing in common, regardless of their religion: they REALLY BELIEVE what their religion says. And if you want to suggest that it's only Muslims that do evil things on behalf of their religion, and that Christians never do...I'm sure veggieman can provide you with evidence to the contrary.

um ok how do you know not every person of their faith actually believes it? are people in this country majority christian or not? you cant be an actual person of faith if you dont believe in God lol. you cant have it both ways for your argument dude, we are either a christian majority nation or not, you cant say the majority of this country is christians who dont really believe in God lol.

and i also must disagree with another thing. you see there are thing called "fanatics" ,we have them in sports too. its not that they actually believe in their religion, i mean they do just like any other person of faith, but the thing is they take it just a tad bit too far and they go crazy. you know just how soccer hooligans take to loving their team too much and actually hurt people over it, same thing with religious hooligans. its not a matter of how much faith you have, its a matter of your state of mind and how far you wanna take that faith.

and sure go ahead and show me that christians,muslims or any other religion here is the same as whats happening in the ME. i bet you wont find anywhere near the same amount of that stuff over hear where you act like christians are raiding your fridge lol.





You must not be from the south then. You can hardly take a step into ex-Confederate territory without ending up neck-deep in creationism. Speaking of which, here's your horse poopy, Sunny Jim. Grab a shovel.

been back on forth from Los Angeles to Memphis my whole life growing up and went to 1 private school in LA and 2 private schools in Memphis. sorry to make you disappointed but once again not an ounce of creationism in any of the schools. and to tell you the truth no other schools in memphis teach creationism either. YOU WILL NOT FIND CREATIONISM IN SCHOOLS DOWN HERE. i dont knwo where you are getting your information but the majority of christians think "creationists" are a bunch of whackos lol.

its obvious you have never truly been to the south so let me tell you your stereotypes are probably way off just like most people who never lived here and only know what they see from a movie.







http://www.gallup.com/poll/114544/darwin-birthday-believe-evolution.aspx
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/god-and-country/2009/02/11/gallup-darwins-birthday-poll-fewer-than-four-in-ten-believe-in-evolution
http://ncse.com/news/2011/04/polling-creationism-evolution-around-world-006634

Read above. Although I suspect you won't even bother, since you demand proof in the same breath as you call me a liar. And I never said anything about Christians making me read a Bible, so nice putting words in my mouth. Isn't that a form of lying? You don't want to be treated like the enemy, then stop making an enemy of yourself.


i see people that dont necessarily agree with a theory, but your last source said only 28% of people believe in creationism. that kind of goes against your really exaggerated claim that 60% of christians believe in creationism lol. dude, just because someone doesnt truly take evolution as fact doesnt mean they are automatically piled into the creationist section. no instead your own sources owned you because only 28% identify themselves as creationists in a poll of 24 countries with 41% of those people stating they believe in evolution.

so uh yeah, why are you trying to make links say what they dont?

again, show me where it states 60% of christians are creationists please. thanks.

gatorboymike
10-11-2011, 10:09 PM
um ok how do you know not every person of their faith actually believes it? are people in this country majority christian or not? you cant be an actual person of faith if you dont believe in God lol. you cant have it both ways for your argument dude, we are either a christian majority nation or not, you cant say the majority of this country is christians who dont really believe in God lol.

The majority are people who CLAIM to be Christians. Most of them are extremely ignorant about their religion and don't know what it says. They join it for the sake of convenience, laziness, or because they want to reap the earthly benefits of group membership. I'm willing to bet that the people who actually know what Christianity says, have thought it through, agree with it, and are fanatics represent a minority of those who claim to be Christians. That doesn't stop them from spouting off about the whole "Christian nation" thing, and how their opinions should be law. And the "moderates" don't seem to mind having the fanatics speak for them and represent them anyway.


been back on forth from Los Angeles to Memphis my whole life growing up and went to 1 private school in LA and 2 private schools in Memphis. sorry to make you disappointed but once again not an ounce of creationism in any of the schools. and to tell you the truth no other schools in memphis teach creationism either. YOU WILL NOT FIND CREATIONISM IN SCHOOLS DOWN HERE. i dont knwo where you are getting your information but the majority of christians think "creationists" are a bunch of whackos lol.

its obvious you have never truly been to the south so let me tell you your stereotypes are probably way off just like most people who never lived here and only know what they see from a movie.

Oh it's obvious is it? For your information, I've lived in Florida for 26 years. And not only are all the private schools here overflowing with creationist garbage, the public schools are too. Although I'm starting to see that talking to you is a waste of time because all you do is leap to conclusions and make unjustified assumptions.


i see people that dont necessarily agree with a theory, but your last source said only 28% of people believe in creationism. that kind of goes against your really exaggerated claim that 60% of christians believe in creationism lol. dude, just because someone doesnt truly take evolution as fact doesnt mean they are automatically piled into the creationist section. no instead your own sources owned you because only 28% identify themselves as creationists in a poll of 24 countries with 41% of those people stating they believe in evolution.

And another 36% say "no opinion either way." What do you think those people are? Creationists! They're just the ones who are ashamed to admit it. Well, them, plus the self-described agnostics who just refuse to take a stand on anything because they mistake indecisiveness for being "open-minded." You might not pile them into the creationist section, but go and ask someone if they accept evolution. If they say no, what's the first thing that pops into your mind? "Oh, this person is a creationist." Even if they won't admit to being a creationist, ask them why they don't accept evolution and you'll get Jesus this, Bible that within the first 30 seconds.

GeddonM3
10-11-2011, 10:57 PM
The majority are people who CLAIM to be Christians. Most of them are extremely ignorant about their religion and don't know what it says. They join it for the sake of convenience, laziness, or because they want to reap the earthly benefits of group membership. I'm willing to bet that the people who actually know what Christianity says, have thought it through, agree with it, and are fanatics represent a minority of those who claim to be Christians. That doesn't stop them from spouting off about the whole "Christian nation" thing, and how their opinions should be law. And the "moderates" don't seem to mind having the fanatics speak for them and represent them anyway.

ok how is that any different than any other group wanting "their way" to be law? there are groups that want all guns banned, there are groups that want all unhealthy foods banned, there are groups who want sports in schools banned, there are groups that want religion banned lol.

but do any of those things happen? not without a vote. and from what i recall this "Christian Nation" you are spouting off about is allowing gay marriage one state at a time as well as dropped DADT not too long ago. your fears and phobias of your delusional "christian" take over are way off base.

bad apples in all walks of life my friend, and guess what if you take away all religion we will just find something else to yell at eachother or kill over.


Oh it's obvious is it? For your information, I've lived in Florida for 26 years. And not only are all the private schools here overflowing with creationist garbage, the public schools are too. Although I'm starting to see that talking to you is a waste of time because all you do is leap to conclusions and make unjustified assumptions.

now i know you are lying to protect your agenda and completely lowly argument. for one creationism cant be taught in public schools because of that little law called "Separation of Church and State" , since public schools are funded by the state it cannot teach a religion in that manner. so thats strike one.

number 2 is that many, if not most of the private schools in florida are private catholic schools lol and im sorry but you wont find a Catholic that believes in creationism or teaches it in their school.

let me educate you about those who teach creationism and where they do it. first of all not in any school private or public, it is taught during bible studies within the church or to kids who are home schooled. now these particular people are called evangelical fanatic christians, you can say they are the more warped of the christian faiths, well close to what Westboro Baptist would be. and let me tell you there arent that many fanatic evangelicals in our midst.

tell ya what, why dont you go on and learn a lil bit about the laws of this country and where creationism is actually taught instead of making statements that are farther from the truth or that you heard in one of your "hate religion" circle jerks and get back to me on this.





And another 36% say "no opinion either way." What do you think those people are? Creationists! They're just the ones who are ashamed to admit it. Well, them, plus the self-described agnostics who just refuse to take a stand on anything because they mistake indecisiveness for being "open-minded." You might not pile them into the creationist section, but go and ask someone if they accept evolution. If they say no, what's the first thing that pops into your mind? "Oh, this person is a creationist." Even if they won't admit to being a creationist, ask them why they don't accept evolution and you'll get Jesus this, Bible that within the first 30 seconds.



um just because one says he or she has no opinion either way does not mean they are a "creationist" , sounds like they just dont give a rats behind to me. and once again you cant just say someone is a creationist just because they dont believe in evolution, for all you know they dont give a care about either one or dont believe in either one lol. you sir are acting like a fanatic science nut, simply stating if they dont believe your way then they must be some crazy creationist lunatic lol. you have made so many false statements and try to push them as fact you are almost getting boring to have a discussion with lol, the only thing i get entertained by is hoping to see another ASSUMPTION by you to be pushed as fact lol.

and btw, your own source still says only 28% of people in 24 countries believe in creationism. you gonna argue your own sources then i guess your sources arent fact no matter which way you try and push them.

game over, you lose. IM OUT HAHAHAHA!!!!

gatorboymike
10-11-2011, 11:14 PM
Have fun, Sunny Jim. :winking0071:

GeddonM3
10-11-2011, 11:18 PM
no hard feelings my man. nothin wrong with a spirited debate, i hope you didnt take anything personal. plus one day you might have somethin i want and i wouldnt wanna ruin my chance of getting it haha.

good talk brotha :football:

mrveggieman
10-12-2011, 09:19 AM
no hard feelings my man. nothin wrong with a spirited debate, i hope you didnt take anything personal. plus one day you might have somethin i want and i wouldnt wanna ruin my chance of getting it haha.

good talk brotha :football:

I love it we we can all sit down and discuss our favorite competitive event, religion without getting bent out of shape. :cheer2:

derrickmonster715
10-13-2011, 02:29 AM
My opinion on religion..it all contradicts itself in one form or another..thats why I stick with my own beliefs :)

theonedru
10-13-2011, 03:11 AM
My opinion on religion..it all contradicts itself in one form or another..thats why I stick with my own beliefs :)

faith is a beautiful thing, religion can be so ugly

gatorboymike
10-13-2011, 03:34 AM
faith is a beautiful thing, religion can be so ugly

"Ooh, yeah. Uh. I'm gonna have to go ahead and sort of...disagree with you there."
- Office Space

theonedru
10-13-2011, 04:34 AM
"Ooh, yeah. Uh. I'm gonna have to go ahead and sort of...disagree with you there."
- Office Space

Bob Porter: Looks like you've been missing a lot of work lately.
Peter Gibbons: I wouldn't say I've been *missing* it, Bob.