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View Full Version : Herman Cain waffling on abortion



mrveggieman
10-20-2011, 03:59 PM
http://blogs.ajc.com/political-insider-jim-galloway/2011/10/20/rick-santorum-herman-cain-just-waffled-on-abortion/

sanfran22
10-20-2011, 04:10 PM
How did he waffle?

duane1969
10-20-2011, 05:39 PM
:confused0024:

mrveggieman
10-21-2011, 01:32 PM
I take it that neither one of you read the article in its entireity.

Star_Cards
10-21-2011, 01:43 PM
I read the article but not sure the exact waffle. My take is abortion as well as a lot of other issues aren't black and white. I like when people's opinions change due to new perspectives brought to an individuals attention.

I also loved this quote... "Cain: No they don’t. I can have an opinion on an issue without it being a directive on the nation. The government shouldn’t be trying to tell people everything to do, especially when it comes to social decisions that they need to make."

a lot of politicians think that because they have an opinion on certain matters that they have to push that opinion through as a law or something similar. I like that Cain recognizes that a politicians opinion on a matter doesn't mean it's a directive for a nation.

I also like his stance on abortion from what I read in this article. It's not for the government to decide if one should or shouldn't have an abortion.

sanfran22
10-23-2011, 03:34 AM
I take it that neither one of you read the article in its entireity.
I take it you can't comprehend the article in it's entirety??

habsheaven
10-23-2011, 05:49 PM
The contradiction is easy to see. On one hand he says he believes "life starts at conception". On the other hand he says "abortion should be the decision of the family, not government".

sanfran22
10-23-2011, 09:06 PM
The contradiction is easy to see. On one hand he says he believes "life starts at conception". On the other hand he says "abortion should be the decision of the family, not government".
How's that a contradiciton? You are taliking about when life starts in one insatnce, and the decision to end it in another. It's pretty clear to me he is pro-life but it's not his decision to make...

duane1969
10-23-2011, 10:31 PM
The contradiction is easy to see. On one hand he says he believes "life starts at conception". On the other hand he says "abortion should be the decision of the family, not government".

Please explain how is that a contradiction? Is it your opinion that since he (or anyone) believes that life starts at conception then he/they has to be anti-abortion?

Is it not possible to believe life starts at conception and still support the right to choose? Or is it that whole liberal thing that you either entirely support the liberal position or you are the enemy?

mrveggieman
10-24-2011, 10:16 AM
Isn't one of the piliars of the republicans/neocons/tea party/etc is to be anti-abortion. Since cain is not being staunchly against abortion he is waffling against what his party believes in. How can someone call themself a true conservative and vote for a canidate that flakes on abortion? You conservatives can't have it both ways.

sanfran22
10-24-2011, 10:56 AM
Isn't one of the piliars of the republicans/neocons/tea party/etc is to be anti-abortion. Since cain is not being staunchly against abortion he is waffling against what his party believes in. How can someone call themself a true conservative and vote for a canidate that flakes on abortion? You conservatives can't have it both ways.

He's against abortion, it plainly says that. He also realizes that he has no choice in the matter. It's not his decision. You can be anti-abortion and realize that there's not much you can do if someone chooses to have one.....get it?

mrveggieman
10-24-2011, 11:02 AM
He's against abortion, it plainly says that. He also realizes that he has no choice in the matter. It's not his decision. You can be anti-abortion and realize that there's not much you can do if someone chooses to have one.....get it?

So he's turning his back on all of the previous republican judges and legislators who have previously ruled/voted against abortion. Got ya. :winking0071:

sanfran22
10-24-2011, 11:07 AM
So he's turning his back on all of the previous republican judges and legislators who have previously ruled/voted against abortion. Got ya. :winking0071:

Is that really how you read it? Talk about twisted...

habsheaven
10-24-2011, 01:25 PM
Please explain how is that a contradiction? Is it your opinion that since he (or anyone) believes that life starts at conception then he/they has to be anti-abortion?

Is it not possible to believe life starts at conception and still support the right to choose? Or is it that whole liberal thing that you either entirely support the liberal position or you are the enemy?

Yes, that is my position. How can a conservative justify killing an inconvenient fetus anymore than they can justify killing an inconvenient infant? Are not all anti-abortionists in favour of the government protecting the unborn? Do you know of any others that say it is the choice of the family?

Star_Cards
10-24-2011, 01:57 PM
I don't consider it waffling if he has a different stance to a topic that is different than his parties view as a whole. For me I actually like politicians that have their own views and don't fall in line to their party views on every topic. It shows me that he has a mind of his own and isn't afraid of speaking his mind even when it goes against his party.

Star_Cards
10-24-2011, 02:00 PM
So he's turning his back on all of the previous republican judges and legislators who have previously ruled/voted against abortion. Got ya. :winking0071:

I don't see how you are upholding him to this "republican ideal". He's a republican but he is his own person and I like that.

I think his views are what most people who are tagged as pro-choice are. They don't think abortion is the best option, but know that it is needed as a legal option.

mrveggieman
10-24-2011, 02:02 PM
I don't consider it waffling if he has a different stance to a topic that is different than his parties view as a whole. For me I actually like politicians that have their own views and don't fall in line to their party views on every topic. It shows me that he has a mind of his own and isn't afraid of speaking his mind even when it goes against his party.


He's going to lose a lot of votes from his own party due to abortion stance. That isn't neccessaliry a bad thing. :winking0071:

mrveggieman
10-24-2011, 02:04 PM
I don't see how you are upholding him to this "republican ideal". He's a republican but he is his own person and I like that.

I think his views are what most people who are tagged as pro-choice are. They don't think abortion is the best option, but know that it is needed as a legal option.


What a pro-choice conservative christian republican?? What an oxymoron.

pghin08
10-24-2011, 03:04 PM
I personally couldn't care less what Cain's stance on abortion is. He has no power to overturn Roe v. Wade (nor does any other candidate), so why do people focus so much on it?

Star_Cards
10-24-2011, 03:23 PM
I personally couldn't care less what Cain's stance on abortion is. He has no power to overturn Roe v. Wade (nor does any other candidate), so why do people focus so much on it?

great point. I get why abortion is a hot topic, but for me it's way down the list of reasons why I vote for a candidate.

duane1969
10-24-2011, 03:38 PM
Yes, that is my position. How can a conservative justify killing an inconvenient fetus anymore than they can justify killing an inconvenient infant? Are not all anti-abortionists in favour of the government protecting the unborn? Do you know of any others that say it is the choice of the family?

Last time I checked, a pregnancy from a rape or incest is a bit more than inconvenient...



QUESTION: Morgan: But you’ve had children, grandchildren. If one of your female children, grand children was raped, you would honestly want her to bring up that baby as her own?

ANSWER: Cain: No, it comes down to it’s not the government’s role or anybody else’s role to make that decision. Secondly, if you look at the statistical incidents, you’re not talking about that big a number. So what I’m saying is it ultimately gets down to a choice that that family or that mother has to make.

Not me as president, not some politician, not a bureaucrat. It gets down to that family. And whatever they decide, they decide. I shouldn’t have to tell them what decision to make for such a sensitive issue.


The question and answer are amazing easy to comprehend. The fact that the liberals are trying to make this into something it is not is proof enough of just how weak and desperate the left has become.

Why won't you guys read an article and take the words at face value instead of trying to make it out like they said something that they didn't?

habsheaven
10-24-2011, 04:16 PM
Last time I checked, a pregnancy from a rape or incest is a bit more than inconvenient...



The question and answer are amazing easy to comprehend. The fact that the liberals are trying to make this into something it is not is proof enough of just how weak and desperate the left has become.

Why won't you guys read an article and take the words at face value instead of trying to make it out like they said something that they didn't?

Last time I checked, terminating a life, (Cain says life begins at conception) even the product of a rape or incest, is also more than inconvenient for that LIFE being terminated.

That is where the contradiction lies. If he truly believes life begins at conception the only moral and legal reason to terminate that life would be to save another life (self-defense in essence).

duane1969
10-25-2011, 10:47 AM
Last time I checked, terminating a life, (Cain says life begins at conception) even the product of a rape or incest, is also more than inconvenient for that LIFE being terminated.

That is where the contradiction lies. If he truly believes life begins at conception the only moral and legal reason to terminate that life would be to save another life (self-defense in essence).

No contradiction exist. Most conservatives, like myself, have an issue with abortion being used as birth control.

If you can't see the obvious difference between a pregnancy from rape or incest and a pregnancy from promiscuity then there is no point in discussing this any further.

habsheaven
10-25-2011, 11:22 AM
No contradiction exist. Most conservatives, like myself, have an issue with abortion being used as birth control.

If you can't see the obvious difference between a pregnancy from rape or incest and a pregnancy from promiscuity then there is no point in discussing this any further.

Most PEOPLE have an issue with abortion being used as birth control. That opinion is not exclusive to the conservative community. I explained the contradicton very clearly. If you continue to ignore it and deflect the argument then you are right, there is no point discussing it.

Obviously, you, Cain and many other conservatives put a lesser value on the LIFE of a fetus than you do the LIFE of the actual living person. Glad to see you all admitting it to the rest of us.

habsheaven
11-01-2011, 10:11 PM
Most PEOPLE have an issue with abortion being used as birth control. That opinion is not exclusive to the conservative community. I explained the contradicton very clearly. If you continue to ignore it and deflect the argument then you are right, there is no point discussing it.

Obviously, you, Cain and many other conservatives put a lesser value on the LIFE of a fetus than you do the LIFE of the actual living person. Glad to see you all admitting it to the rest of us.

Here I will bump this up for anyone who cares to refute this statement.

mrveggieman
11-02-2011, 09:28 AM
How do you republicans feel about your poster boy being pro-abortion?

ensbergcollector
11-02-2011, 11:08 AM
habs- just trying to make sure i understand your stance. is your issue that people are anti-abortion except in cases of rape or incest? just trying to make sure i understand.

veggie - you like to throw around dumb labels. Oh, cain is the current front runner so he must be the "poster boy" for the republicans. really man. and, as many have said, he is anti-abortion, just doesn't feel it is the governments responsibility to mandate that..

sanfran22
11-02-2011, 11:09 AM
habs- just trying to make sure i understand your stance. is your issue that people are anti-abortion except in cases of rape or incest? just trying to make sure i understand.

veggie - you like to throw around dumb labels. Oh, cain is the current front runner so he must be the "poster boy" for the republicans. really man. and, as many have said, he is anti-abortion, just doesn't feel it is the governments responsibility to mandate that..

That right there. It's not too hard to understand for most of us.........

mrveggieman
11-02-2011, 11:21 AM
habs- just trying to make sure i understand your stance. is your issue that people are anti-abortion except in cases of rape or incest? just trying to make sure i understand.

veggie - you like to throw around dumb labels. Oh, cain is the current front runner so he must be the "poster boy" for the republicans. really man. and, as many have said, he is anti-abortion, just doesn't feel it is the governments responsibility to mandate that..


Another poster on her said that if you support a woman chosing to have an abortion you are pro-choice. So if herman cain does not believe in the gov't taking a stance on abortion one would draw the conclusion that he is pro choice or pro abortion. Is that a safe assumption? Why or why not?

sanfran22
11-02-2011, 11:22 AM
Another poster on her said that if you support a woman chosing to have an abortion you are pro-choice. So if herman cain does not believe in the gov't taking a stance on abortion one would draw the conclusion that he is pro choice or pro abortion. Is that a safe assumption? Why or why not?

Do you separate the gov't from the individual?

duane1969
11-02-2011, 11:23 AM
Here I will bump this up for anyone who cares to refute this statement.

I didn't bother to respond because your statement makes no sense.

Your position is that a person can only be pro-choice or pro-life. For you there is no middle ground or gray area. Thus there is no point in discussing it any further with you because your close-minded position makes discussion otiose.

mrveggieman
11-02-2011, 11:25 AM
Do you separate the gov't from the individual?


I do but a lot of so called conservatives don't. I'm not a politician so thats not relevant. Cain is the voice of his voters. If his voters do not believe in abortion he is going to lose a lot of them because of his stance.

habsheaven
11-02-2011, 11:37 AM
habs- just trying to make sure i understand your stance. is your issue that people are anti-abortion except in cases of rape or incest? just trying to make sure i understand.

Yes, that is my issue. If someone is against abortion because they believe life begins at conception, and they say "abortion is murdering innocent unborn babies". How can they then turn around and say, "Abortion is acceptable if it involves a rape or incest."?

What are your thoughts on it?

duane1969
11-02-2011, 11:38 AM
I do but a lot of so called conservatives don't. I'm not a politician so thats not relevant. Cain is the voice of his voters. If his voters do not believe in abortion he is going to lose a lot of them because of his stance.

I know a lot of conservatives and I don't see them turning away from him because he said that he supported the rights of a raped woman to make a choice. Most people, regardless or political affiliation, would not expect a raped woman to carry a reminder of her ordeal for 9 months and risk her life to give birth to it.

The fact that you liberals keep trying to say that it is proof that he is pro-choice is proof of just how desperate you are to find something wrong with him.

Star_Cards
11-02-2011, 11:44 AM
I don't think it's proof that he's pro-choice across the board, but goes to show that the issues isn't as black and white as pro lifers want to think. There are many variables that come into play when you are talking about outlawing abortion completely.

mrveggieman
11-02-2011, 11:45 AM
I know a lot of conservatives and I don't see them turning away from him because he said that he supported the rights of a raped woman to make a choice. Most people, regardless or political affiliation, would not expect a raped woman to carry a reminder of her ordeal for 9 months and risk her life to give birth to it.

The fact that you liberals keep trying to say that it is proof that he is pro-choice is proof of just how desperate you are to find something wrong with him.


The majority of people would not have a problem with a woman aborting a baby concieved through rape, but that's not what I'm talking about. Cain pretty much came out and said that he supports a woman having an abortion for any reason he didn't specify weather it was rape or incest. Sounds like a pro abortion canidate to me.

duane1969
11-02-2011, 11:47 AM
Yes, that is my issue. If someone is against abortion because they believe life begins at conception, and they say "abortion is murdering innocent unborn babies". How can they then turn around and say, "Abortion is acceptable if it involves a rape or incest."?

What are your thoughts on it?

It's quite simple but you clearly don't see it.

The idea that a woman who was raped or a girl who was molested would be expected to carry that child for 9 months as a daily reminder of what happened to her and then be expected to risk her life to give birth to it is outlandish to most people.

The idea that a woman is irresponsible and has unprotected sex with the full knowledge that she can get pregnant but does it anyway and then wants to terminate the pregnancy because it is inconvenient for her lifestyle is asinine to most people.

Your position that the two situations are the same thing is amazingly dumbfounding.

habsheaven
11-02-2011, 11:48 AM
I didn't bother to respond because your statement makes no sense.

Your position is that a person can only be pro-choice or pro-life. For you there is no middle ground or gray area. Thus there is no point in discussing it any further with you because your close-minded position makes discussion otiose.

My position is that IF YOU believe LIFE begins at conception you must be pro-life, there can be no gray area. How do you justify terminating a LIFE just because the conception involved rape or incest?

I will tell you how you do it since you refuse to admit to it. You treat LIFE the same way I do. You weigh its value up against the trauma caused by the immoral act and then you decide if that LIFE is worth it.

sanfran22
11-02-2011, 11:49 AM
The majority of people would not have a problem with a woman aborting a baby concieved through rape, but that's not what I'm talking about. Cain pretty much came out and said that he supports a woman having an abortion for any reason he didn't specify weather it was rape or incest. Sounds like a pro abortion canidate to me.

That's not what he said.....How one can think that someone is getting out of the way of a decision is pro-abortion is mind-boggling.
"Morgan: But you’ve had children, grandchildren. If one of your female children, grand children was raped, you would honestly want her to bring up that baby as her own?

Cain: You’re mixing two things here, Piers?

Morgan: Why?

Cain: You’re mixing –

Morgan: That’s what it comes down to.

Cain: No, it comes down to it’s not the government’s role or anybody else’s role to make that decision. Secondly, if you look at the statistical incidents, you’re not talking about that big a number. So what I’m saying is it ultimately gets down to a choice that that family or that mother has to make.

Not me as president, not some politician, not a bureaucrat. It gets down to that family. And whatever they decide, they decide. I shouldn’t have to tell them what decision to make for such a sensitive issue."

habsheaven
11-02-2011, 11:50 AM
It's quite simple but you clearly don't see it.

The idea that a woman who was raped or a girl who was molested would be expected to carry that child for 9 months as a daily reminder of what happened to her and then be expected to risk her life to give birth to it is outlandish to most people.

The idea that a woman is irresponsible and has unprotected sex with the full knowledge that she can get pregnant but does it anyway and then wants to terminate the pregnancy because it is inconvenient for her lifestyle is asinine to most people.

Your position that the two situations are the same thing is amazingly dumbfounding.

Where are you getting this from? Where did I say this? Try reading what I write and commenting on that.

duane1969
11-02-2011, 11:52 AM
The majority of people would not have a problem with a woman aborting a baby concieved through rape, but that's not what I'm talking about. Cain pretty much came out and said that he supports a woman having an abortion for any reason he didn't specify weather it was rape or incest. Sounds like a pro abortion canidate to me.

Not true. Reread the article.

The question specifically addresses the issue of a raped woman.


QUESTION: Morgan: But you’ve had children, grandchildren. If one of your female children, grand children was raped, you would honestly want her to bring up that baby as her own?

Cain's response to the question.


ANSWER: Cain: No, it comes down to it’s not the government’s role or anybody else’s role to make that decision. Secondly, if you look at the statistical incidents, you’re not talking about that big a number. So what I’m saying is it ultimately gets down to a choice that that family or that mother has to make.

Not me as president, not some politician, not a bureaucrat. It gets down to that family. And whatever they decide, they decide. I shouldn’t have to tell them what decision to make for such a sensitive issue.

Cain is specifically and directly adressing the question of abortion in the case of rape. The fact that you guys are trying to twist it into something it clearly is not is just silly.

habsheaven
11-02-2011, 11:55 AM
Not true. Reread the article.

The question specifically addresses the issue of a raped woman.



Cain's response to the question.



Cain is specifically and directly adressing the question of abortion in the case of rape. The fact that you guys are trying to twist it into something it clearly is not is just silly.

Do you honestly think me and veggieman are saying the same thing?

duane1969
11-02-2011, 12:15 PM
Do you honestly think me and veggieman are saying the same thing?

You are both trying to say that his statements in the interview are proof that Cain is pro-choice and proof that he "waffled" on abortion.

Am I incorrect about that?

habsheaven
11-02-2011, 12:25 PM
You are both trying to say that his statements in the interview are proof that Cain is pro-choice and proof that he "waffled" on abortion.

Am I incorrect about that?

Yes, you couldn't be more incorrect. I haven't said anything like that.

duane1969
11-02-2011, 01:13 PM
Yes, you couldn't be more incorrect. I haven't said anything like that.

I guess I misunderstood this. I was pretty sure you were saying that he was waffling on hsi stance on abortion.


The contradiction is easy to see. On one hand he says he believes "life starts at conception". On the other hand he says "abortion should be the decision of the family, not government".

habsheaven
11-02-2011, 01:42 PM
I guess I misunderstood this. I was pretty sure you were saying that he was waffling on hsi stance on abortion.

He is waffling (or lieing) about his belief that LIFE starts at conception. If LIFE starts at conception, you cannot be in favour of allowing a woman or family to decide if that LIFE lives or dies. Unless of course, he doesn't VALUE that LIFE as much as values other LIVES.