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mrveggieman
11-21-2011, 12:26 PM
I remember a while back we had almost the exact same discussion in someone refusing to sell a wedding dress to a couple. When will people learn? If you do business with the public you are going to come across people who do not share the same religious views as you. If you believe in your views that strongly do not open a business where you have to deal with the general public or better yet stay in your house, stay off the web, do not use the phone, be a hermit and cut off all outside communication with the rest of the world.

http://pamshouseblend.firedoglake.com/2011/11/20/iowa-bigot-baker-victoria-childress-broke-the-law/

ensbergcollector
11-21-2011, 03:10 PM
I remember a while back we had almost the exact same discussion in someone refusing to sell a wedding dress to a couple. When will people learn? If you do business with the public you are going to come across people who do not share the same religious views as you. If you believe in your views that strongly do not open a business where you have to deal with the general public or better yet stay in your house, stay off the web, do not use the phone, be a hermit and cut off all outside communication with the rest of the world.

http://pamshouseblend.firedoglake.com/2011/11/20/iowa-bigot-baker-victoria-childress-broke-the-law/

so anyone who has a strong opinion that differs from yours should just stay home and be excluded from the world?

mrveggieman
11-21-2011, 03:29 PM
so anyone who has a strong opinion that differs from yours should just stay home and be excluded from the world?


Again you are putting words in my mouth. If your line of works requires you to have any dealing with the public and I would imagine that most jobs do, sooner or later you are going to run across someone who dosent agree with you in one form or fashion. If you cannot handle doing business with someone who dosen't believe in the same things that you believe in and those beliefs have nothing to do with the business transacation that you are trying to complete that mabey just mabey you are in the wrong line of work and should look for a profession that does not require you to deal with the general public or better yet leave the house.

Star_Cards
11-21-2011, 03:45 PM
how narrow minded of them. I wonder if they refuse service to people who have been arrested or have DUIs or any other sort of thing that they don't like personally? I'd bet that they don't and that they don't have a clue. It's sick to think that there are people out there that are so afraid of same sex couples. at least I assume they are afraid for some reason or another. Stupid business move if you ask me.

habsheaven
11-21-2011, 04:39 PM
so anyone who has a strong opinion that differs from yours should just stay home and be excluded from the world?

Is that the best you could come up with?

ensbergcollector
11-21-2011, 04:43 PM
Is that the best you could come up with?

based on his post, yeah. i am 100% against the cake makers and I agree that they are dumb for doing it. However, people are allowed to deny business to anyone they want. Maybe they face backlash for it and maybe they don't. If I owned a business, i would refuse service to someone who was openly racist. Does that mean i should just close up shop and be a hermit if I am not willing to serve everyone?

habsheaven
11-21-2011, 04:54 PM
based on his post, yeah. i am 100% against the cake makers and I agree that they are dumb for doing it. However, people are allowed to deny business to anyone they want. Maybe they face backlash for it and maybe they don't. If I owned a business, i would refuse service to someone who was openly racist. Does that mean i should just close up shop and be a hermit if I am not willing to serve everyone?

Why?

ensbergcollector
11-21-2011, 05:02 PM
Why?

Two initial reasons. I dont care to spend a lot of time with overtly racist people and I wouldnt want to lose other potential customers.
I am not drawing parallels to this case because I dont know them or agree with them. My issue with veggiemans post is that people have a right to refuse service. Doesnt mean tbey shouldnt be welcome in society.

mrveggieman
11-21-2011, 05:10 PM
Two initial reasons. I dont care to spend a lot of time with overtly racist people and I wouldnt want to lose other potential customers.
I am not drawing parallels to this case because I dont know them or agree with them. My issue with veggiemans post is that people have a right to refuse service. Doesnt mean tbey shouldnt be welcome in society.


If you run a business you do have the right to refuse service to someone who is making a scene or is doing something that is a detriment to your business. Such as intimidating customers, being loud cursing in your place of business, or just being plain obnoxious then yes refuse business and ban them from your shop. But how is another consenting adults sexual preference any business to a business owner? Can someone please explain to me how selling a wedding cake and/or dress to a gay couple can hurt your business?

ensbergcollector
11-21-2011, 05:13 PM
If you run a business you do have the right to refuse service to someone who is making a scene or is doing something that is a detriment to your business. Such as intimidating customers, being loud cursing in your place of business, or just being plain obnoxious then yes refuse business and ban them from your shop. But how is another consenting adults sexual preference any business to a business owner? Can someone please explain to me how selling a wedding cake and/or dress to a gay couple can hurt your business?

i purposely said i wasn't drawing a parallel. i have no idea how it could hurt your business. i am on record as saying i think the people were wrong. however, they have that right. who are we to say they have no place in society because we disagree with them?

mrveggieman
11-21-2011, 05:18 PM
i purposely said i wasn't drawing a parallel. i have no idea how it could hurt your business. i am on record as saying i think the people were wrong. however, they have that right. who are we to say they have no place in society because we disagree with them?


I agree with you on that bruh.

gatorboymike
11-21-2011, 05:26 PM
Funny, I thought Christians were the ones saying homosexuals have no place in society because Christians don't agree with homosexuals.

duwal
11-21-2011, 05:36 PM
Funny, I thought Christians were the ones saying homosexuals have no place in society because Christians don't agree with homosexuals.


Tebow!!! :football:

themanishere
11-21-2011, 05:44 PM
However, people are allowed to deny business to anyone they want.

This is not entirely true. You can refuse to serve people who are unhygienic, rowdy, disturbing other customers, and things like that.

If a business "serves the general public," like a restaurant let's say, the workers cannot deny service based on traits like race, ethnicity, etc. (protected categories).

That being said, it is difficult to prove discrimination against business owners in these cases anyway. Pretty gray area.

mrveggieman
11-21-2011, 05:45 PM
Tebow!!! :football:


I wonder it Tebow is a nascar fan. :sign0020: I couldn't resist that one.

Star_Cards
11-21-2011, 10:00 PM
but the fact that they are homosexual is part of who that person is. It's not everything, but sexuality is a big part of human beings. it's easy for someone to separate the two so easily when their preferred sexuality is what is considered "normal". I couldn't imagine the torment one would go though having such a large part of their live being judged as being wrong.

gatorboymike
11-22-2011, 07:40 AM
In your petty, twisted, ignorant mind probably. But for those who can actually listen and process a thought. It's the act, not the person, to oversimplify it.

Here's a thought for you to process, Sunny Jim: "love the sinner, hate the sin" is nonsense. It's just an excuse to treat the sinner as if they were the sin incarnate.

If it was really just the act, the answer would be very simple: don't watch the act. You call me petty, yet I'm not the one losing sleep and feeling that my relationship with my girlfriend is somehow less valuable because of what Bob and Steve down the street do in the privacy of their home.

mrveggieman
11-22-2011, 09:18 AM
Here's a thought for you to process, Sunny Jim: "love the sinner, hate the sin" is nonsense. It's just an excuse to treat the sinner as if they were the sin incarnate.

If it was really just the act, the answer would be very simple: don't watch the act. You call me petty, yet I'm not the one losing sleep and feeling that my relationship with my girlfriend is somehow less valuable because of what Bob and Steve down the street do in the privacy of their home.


CHURCH!! :cheer2:

ensbergcollector
11-22-2011, 11:30 AM
Here's a thought for you to process, Sunny Jim: "love the sinner, hate the sin" is nonsense. It's just an excuse to treat the sinner as if they were the sin incarnate.

If it was really just the act, the answer would be very simple: don't watch the act. You call me petty, yet I'm not the one losing sleep and feeling that my relationship with my girlfriend is somehow less valuable because of what Bob and Steve down the street do in the privacy of their home.

no, you are the one losing sleep worrying about when the evil totalitarian christians are going to lock you up in prison for not thinking like them. Do me a favor and tell me how many countries non-christians need to fear that in again? oh, that's right, none. how many countries persecute christians? oh, that's right, over 50.

duane1969
11-22-2011, 11:32 AM
Here's a thought for you to process, Sunny Jim: "love the sinner, hate the sin" is nonsense. It's just an excuse to treat the sinner as if they were the sin incarnate.

If it was really just the act, the answer would be very simple: don't watch the act. You call me petty, yet I'm not the one losing sleep and feeling that my relationship with my girlfriend is somehow less valuable because of what Bob and Steve down the street do in the privacy of their home.

Playing devil's advocate here.

Isn't that what we do with murderers, rapists and sexual predators? Don't we treat the "sinner" in a certain manner because we hate the "sin"? Even after they get out of prison are they not treated differently because of their "sin" for the rest of their lives?

I am not equating homosexuality with murder or rape, just saying that as a society we are conditioned to associate those who do things we do not like with the things that they do.

mrveggieman
11-22-2011, 11:46 AM
no, you are the one losing sleep worrying about when the evil totalitarian christians are going to lock you up in prison for not thinking like them. Do me a favor and tell me how many countries non-christians need to fear that in again? oh, that's right, none. how many countries persecute christians? oh, that's right, over 50.


Dude are you serious?? The last time that I checked the United States is a majority christian nation and do you really want me to list all of the atrocities that the america has commited against others who did not agree with their imperalistic ideas.

ensbergcollector
11-22-2011, 11:54 AM
Dude are you serious?? The last time that I checked the United States is a majority christian nation and do you really want me to list all of the atrocities that the america has commited against others who did not agree with their imperalistic ideas.

no, i want you to actually address the question. how many countries in the world, do christian led nations openly persecute (arrest, put in prison, etc) people for no reason other than that they are not christian. the answer is zero. Meanwhile, there are multiple countries in which christians can be arrested simply for being christian.

you can't dodge the question by saying america is mostly christian so therefore all atrocities committed by america are done by christians. you are smart enough to know that wasn't what i was referring to.

duane1969
11-22-2011, 11:56 AM
Dude are you serious?? The last time that I checked the United States is a majority christian nation and do you really want me to list all of the atrocities that the america has commited against others who did not agree with their imperalistic ideas.

Iran is a Muslim country. So everything that they do wrong because of Islam.
Palestine is a Muslim country. So everything that they do wrong because of Islam.
China is a Buddhist/Taoist country. So everything that they do wrong because of Buddhism/Taoism.

Just trying to make sure that I understand your logic. Anything done by a country is because of it's dominant religion. Gotcha :winking0071:

mrveggieman
11-22-2011, 12:10 PM
Iran is a Muslim country. So everything that they do wrong because of Islam.
Palestine is a Muslim country. So everything that they do wrong because of Islam.
China is a Buddhist/Taoist country. So everything that they do wrong because of Buddhism/Taoism.

Just trying to make sure that I understand your logic. Anything done by a country is because of it's dominant religion. Gotcha :winking0071:


No I was referring to our friend ensbergcollector's suggestion that christian nations do not commit acts of evil but if a country is ran by non christians they must be evil. Pick a religion, any religion and you will have it's good and bad apples. Despite what some christians want you to believe christanity is not exempt. Power corrupts and I don't care what religion you follow or how holy you claim to be you get enough of the power you start to develop a god complex. Yes the united states does not openly arrest and persecute non christians simply for not believing in christanity. They simply invade non christian (muslim) countries telling them that their leaders are evil and it is time for a regime change. If that is not a holier than thou attitude I don't know what is. Of course america wont openly say that it is a holy war and they do have other agendas (oil) in invading middle eastern countries besides religion but you and I both know that the right wing extremist christians have no problem with american invading and destroying muslim coutries as well as raping their women and killing their children.

AUTaxMan
11-22-2011, 12:21 PM
Homosexuals are not a protected class, and the business owners should have the right to discriminate against them at their own peril.

duane1969
11-22-2011, 12:24 PM
No I was referring to our friend ensbergcollector's suggestion that christian nations do not commit acts of evil but if a country is ran by non christians they must be evil. Pick a religion, any religion and you will have it's good and bad apples. Despite what some christians want you to believe christanity is not exempt. Power corrupts and I don't care what religion you follow or how holy you claim to be you get enough of the power you start to develop a god complex. Yes the united states does not openly arrest and persecute non christians simply for not believing in christanity. They simply invade non christian (muslim) countries telling them that their leaders are evil and it is time for a regime change. If that is not a holier than thou attitude I don't know what is. Of course america wont openly say that it is a holy war and they do have other agendas (oil) in invading middle eastern countries besides religion but you and I both know that the right wing extremist christians have no problem with american invading and destroying muslim coutries as well as raping their women and killing their children.


If I understood what he was saying, he was saying that more countries persecute Christians than any other religion so identifying Christians as "the religion of evil people" would be off-base.

As I have said before, I was raised BAptist and married a preacher's daughter. I do not know anybody who hates Muslims or advocates invading ME countries simply because they are Muslim.

I will not deny that some far-right people support invading simply because they are Muslim countries, but I will not agree that they represent the majority of Christians either.

habsheaven
11-22-2011, 12:26 PM
Homosexuals are not a protected class, and the business owners should have the right to discriminate against them at their own peril.

Is it not against your laws to discriminate based on "sexual orientation"? What does being a "protected class" have to do with it? Can a business owner refuse service to a white man, for no other reason than they are white?

AUTaxMan
11-22-2011, 12:28 PM
Is it not against your laws to discriminate based on "sexual orientation"? What does being a "protected class" have to do with it? Can a business owner refuse service to a white man, for no other reason than they are white?

No. Sexual orientation is not a constitutionally protected class. Race, color, religion, national origin, age, sex, and to an extent disability status are classes of people protected from discrimination by our Constitution.

ensbergcollector
11-22-2011, 12:29 PM
No I was referring to our friend ensbergcollector's suggestion that christian nations do not commit acts of evil but if a country is ran by non christians they must be evil. Pick a religion, any religion and you will have it's good and bad apples. Despite what some christians want you to believe christanity is not exempt. Power corrupts and I don't care what religion you follow or how holy you claim to be you get enough of the power you start to develop a god complex. Yes the united states does not openly arrest and persecute non christians simply for not believing in christanity. They simply invade non christian (muslim) countries telling them that their leaders are evil and it is time for a regime change. If that is not a holier than thou attitude I don't know what is. Of course america wont openly say that it is a holy war and they do have other agendas (oil) in invading middle eastern countries besides religion but you and I both know that the right wing extremist christians have no problem with american invading and destroying muslim coutries as well as raping their women and killing their children.

you know full well that isn't what i said at all. but, like usual, you avoid the issue long enough until we are so off topic that you never have to. in keeping with our new commitment to avoiding personal attacks and staying on topic, forget it. you weren't going to respond anyway so don't take us farther off track please.

AUTaxMan
11-22-2011, 12:31 PM
you know full well that isn't what i said at all. but, like usual, you avoid the issue long enough until we are so off topic that you never have to. in keeping with our new commitment to avoiding personal attacks and staying on topic, forget it. you weren't going to respond anyway so don't take us farther off track please.

You ought to have figured out by now that attempting to engage mrv in logical conversation is a sisyphean endeavor.

duane1969
11-22-2011, 12:35 PM
Is it not against your laws to discriminate based on "sexual orientation"? What does being a "protected class" have to do with it? Can a business owner refuse service to a white man, for no other reason than they are white?

Specifically Federal law says that you can not discriminate based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. It does not say that you can not discriminate based on sexual choices. If a person is into having sex with animals or licking feet then they are not protected by the discrimination law.

To my knowledge there are no laws protecting sexual orientation other than hate-crimes laws related to gay bashing.


Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Title VII), which prohibits employment discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin;

mrveggieman
11-22-2011, 12:37 PM
No. Sexual orientation is not a constitutionally protected class. Race, color, religion, national origin, age, sex, and to an extent disability status are classes of people protected from discrimination by our Constitution.


But state and federal laws do protect people from being discriminated against on grounds of sexual orientation. Or do you seem to pick and chose what laws you go by to suit your own agenda?

AUTaxMan
11-22-2011, 12:38 PM
But state and federal laws do protect people from being discriminated against on grounds of sexual orientation. Or do you seem to pick and chose what laws you go by to suit your own agenda?

Oh really? Which laws? None in my state.

EDIT - I see that it was against the law in Iowa.

duane1969
11-22-2011, 12:42 PM
But state and federal laws do protect people from being discriminated against on grounds of sexual orientation. Or do you seem to pick and chose what laws you go by to suit your own agenda?

Some states. Not Federal.

These states have laws.

California
Colorado
Connecticut
Hawaii
Illinois
Iowa
Maine
Maryland
Massachusetts
Minnesota
Nevada
New Hampshire
New Jersey
New Mexico
New York
Oregon
Rhode Island
Vermont
Washington
Wisconsin

AUTaxMan
11-22-2011, 12:43 PM
I have more of a libertarian approach on discrimination laws, however. If a business owner wants to discriminate against a particular customer, they should have the freedom to do so at their own peril. Let the market decide whether or not that business model works. You don't have a right to purchase their goods or services.

mrveggieman
11-22-2011, 12:44 PM
If I understood what he was saying, he was saying that more countries persecute Christians than any other religion so identifying Christians as "the religion of evil people" would be off-base.

As I have said before, I was raised BAptist and married a preacher's daughter. I do not know anybody who hates Muslims or advocates invading ME countries simply because they are Muslim.

I will not deny that some far-right people support invading simply because they are Muslim countries, but I will not agree that they represent the majority of Christians either.


I can agree with you on some of that duane. Just like right wing nuts like fallwell, robertson, and cain do not represent all christians, zealouts like the taliban, obl, gadaffi, etc do not represent all muslims. I also do admit some religious extremests who in muslim countries hijacked islam for their own political gain I would be willing to bet every card/auto that I own that they do not speak for the majority of muslims in their country. So to say that so called muslims in muslim countries advocate persecuting christians is just like saying that all christians in america are in favor of the iraq war.

mrveggieman
11-22-2011, 12:47 PM
I have more of a libertarian approach on discrimination laws, however. If a business owner wants to discriminate against a particular customer, they should have the freedom to do so at their own peril. Let the market decide whether or not that business model works. You don't have a right to purchase their goods or services.


Imagine this. Say that religion was removed from protected classes in the eyes of the law reasoning is you cannot chose your race but you can chose your religion. Would you be ok with business saying no christians welcome here? Why or why not?

AUTaxMan
11-22-2011, 12:47 PM
I can agree with you on some of that duane. Just like right wing nuts like fallwell, robertson, and cain do not represent all christians, zealouts like the taliban, obl, gadaffi, etc do not represent all muslims. I also do admit some religious extremests who in muslim countries hijacked islam for their own political gain I would be willing to bet every card/auto that I own that they do not speak for the majority of muslims in their country. So to say that so called muslims in muslim countries advocate persecuting christians is just like saying that all christians in america are in favor of the iraq war.

What is your opinion on the Egypt situation? Do you understand what is happening there with respect to the persecution of Christians and the riots against the military government?

AUTaxMan
11-22-2011, 12:49 PM
Imagine this. Say that religion was removed from protected classes in the eyes of the law reasoning is you cannot chose your race but you can chose your religion. Would you be ok with business saying no christians welcome here? Why or why not?

Yes. I don't imagine that such a business would last very long once the word got out. Again, the owner can discriminate at his own peril.

duane1969
11-22-2011, 12:49 PM
I can agree with you on some of that duane. Just like right wing nuts like fallwell, robertson, and cain do not represent all christians, zealouts like the taliban, obl, gadaffi, etc do not represent all muslims. I also do admit some religious extremests who in muslim countries hijacked islam for their own political gain I would be willing to bet every card/auto that I own that they do not speak for the majority of muslims in their country. So to say that so called muslims in muslim countries advocate persecuting christians is just like saying that all christians in america are in favor of the iraq war.

I didn't see anyone say that.

ensbergcollector
11-22-2011, 12:53 PM
I can agree with you on some of that duane. Just like right wing nuts like fallwell, robertson, and cain do not represent all christians, zealouts like the taliban, obl, gadaffi, etc do not represent all muslims. I also do admit some religious extremests who in muslim countries hijacked islam for their own political gain I would be willing to bet every card/auto that I own that they do not speak for the majority of muslims in their country. So to say that so called muslims in muslim countries advocate persecuting christians is just like saying that all christians in america are in favor of the iraq war.

you continue to twist what i say in an attempt to both pretend I believe something i don't, as well as give you something to lash out at to avoid the actual facts of what I wrote.

all this started because gbm was commenting about someone losing sleep over the actions of homosexuals. i in turn commented on him losing sleep over christian gestapo dragging him from his home. My only comment was that it was more likely to happen if he was christian that if he wasn't.

mrveggieman
11-22-2011, 12:55 PM
I didn't see anyone say that.


I wasn't calling you out on that one it was directed to some of our more conservative readers on here. More conservative than you. :winking0071:

mrveggieman
11-22-2011, 01:00 PM
you continue to twist what i say in an attempt to both pretend I believe something i don't, as well as give you something to lash out at to avoid the actual facts of what I wrote.

all this started because gbm was commenting about someone losing sleep over the actions of homosexuals. i in turn commented on him losing sleep over christian gestapo dragging him from his home. My only comment was that it was more likely to happen if he was christian that if he wasn't.


I don't think that anyone should be dragged out of their house and arrested in the middle of the night for what they chose to do with another consenting adult or for what religion they chose to follow or not to follow for that matter. Yes some of that does go on in middle eastern countries and that is why they are experiencing upheavel over there but you have to admit if the extreme religious right over had their way homosexsuals would have no legal protections whatsoever and first admentment protections would only apply to christians. Bottom line is persecution of anyone weather it is against christins, jews, muslims, gays, transgendered people, bisexuals, straight people or anyone else is morally wrong no matter who is doing the discrimination and what country it is being done in.

AUTaxMan
11-22-2011, 01:01 PM
I don't think that anyone should be dragged out of their house and arrested in the middle of the night for what they chose to do with another consenting adult or for what religion they chose to follow or not to follow for that matter. Yes some of that does go on in middle eastern countries and that is why they are experiencing upheavel over there but you have to admit if the extreme religious right over had their way homosexsuals would have no legal protections whatsoever and first admentment protections would only apply to christians. Bottom line is persecution of anyone weather it is against christins, jews, muslims, gays, transgendered people, bisexuals, straight people or anyone else is morally wrong no matter who is doing the discrimination and what country it is being done in.

I thought the government wasn't supposed to legislate morality.

mrveggieman
11-22-2011, 01:02 PM
What is your opinion on the Egypt situation? Do you understand what is happening there with respect to the persecution of Christians and the riots against the military government?


I haven't read up on all the logistics of it and all but I will say this, freedom of religion is a God given right and I applaud anyone who stands up and fights for their freedom of religion regardless of what that religion is and what is the preferred religion of their gov't.

mrveggieman
11-22-2011, 01:04 PM
I thought the government wasn't supposed to legislate morality.


Now you are the one playing samatics my friend. The gov't has no business telling a consenting adult what to do or not to do with another consenting adult in the privacy and comfort of their own bedroom just like the gov't has no business telling anyone what religion to believe in or not to believe for that matter.

AUTaxMan
11-22-2011, 01:06 PM
I haven't read up on all the logistics of it and all but I will say this, freedom of religion is a God given right and I applaud anyone who stands up and fights for their freedom of religion regardless of what that religion is and what is the preferred religion of their gov't.

You should enlighten yourself on the situation. Just read an article or two so that you know what is happening over there. It's one of the most important events occurring on the world stage at this moment.

sanfran22
11-22-2011, 01:06 PM
I don't think that anyone should be dragged out of their house and arrested in the middle of the night for what they chose to do with another consenting adult or for what religion they chose to follow or not to follow for that matter. Yes some of that does go on in middle eastern countries and that is why they are experiencing upheavel over there but you have to admit if the extreme religious right over had their way homosexsuals would have no legal protections whatsoever and first admentment protections would only apply to christians. Bottom line is persecution of anyone weather it is against christins, jews, muslims, gays, transgendered people, bisexuals, straight people or anyone else is morally wrong no matter who is doing the discrimination and what country it is being done in.

Where do you come up with this crap? So the revolutions are because of the religious persecution? Is that why some of the countries are asking for a more Islamic state?
What legal protections above and beyond regular protections we all have do you think sexual preference should have? I guess you're going to tell me it's the same as your race because you are born that way? I'm just curious.

mrveggieman
11-22-2011, 01:29 PM
Where do you come up with this crap? So the revolutions are because of the religious persecution? Is that why some of the countries are asking for a more Islamic state?
What legal protections above and beyond regular protections we all have do you think sexual preference should have? I guess you're going to tell me it's the same as your race because you are born that way? I'm just curious.

I know they are having upheavel in Egypt but honestly haven't read up on it that much. I guess that I need to. I was going by your buddy mr taxman's suggestion that they riots in Egypt was due to religious persecution against christians by the majority muslim gov't. Is that not the case? Neither one of us live in a majority muslim country so we cannot say why someone who does would or would not want a more islamic state. As far as legal protections against homosexuals now while i do believe it is morally wrong I know who to seperate my faith from my legal sense. I believe that it is possible someone could be born homosexual. Weather or not they are is not mines, yours, the christian right, the taliban's or anyone elses business for that matter. Homosexuals should be able to live their life just like you, I or anyone else free from harassment and discrimination. As long as they respect straight people they can do whatever the hell they want with another consenting adult in the privacy and comfort of their own bedroom. To paraphrase what everyone's favorite forum member gatorboymike said why should I let what bob and steve are doing in their bedroom devalue the marrige vows between my wife and I?

sanfran22
11-22-2011, 01:39 PM
I know they are having upheavel in Egypt but honestly haven't read up on it that much. I guess that I need to. I was going by your buddy mr taxman's suggestion that they riots in Egypt was due to religious persecution against christians by the majority muslim gov't. Is that not the case? Neither one of us live in a majority muslim country so we cannot say why someone who does would or would not want a more islamic state. As far as legal protections against homosexuals now while i do believe it is morally wrong I know who to seperate my faith from my legal sense. I believe that it is possible someone could be born homosexual. Weather or not they are is not mines, yours, the christian right, the taliban's or anyone elses business for that matter. Homosexuals should be able to live their life just like you, I or anyone else free from harassment and discrimination. As long as they respect straight people they can do whatever the hell they want with another consenting adult in the privacy and comfort of their own bedroom. To paraphrase what everyone's favorite forum member gatorboymike said why should I let what bob and steve are doing in their bedroom devalue the marrige vows between my wife and I?

You should read up on the middle east. I believe you may be surprised. As far as homosexuals. I agree with you that they should be able to live their lives free from harassment and discrimination. What that means, I believe, would be different to the both of us. What they do in their home is their choice and should be kept in their home.
What do you consider respecting straight people? Making them change the laws/rules to fit? Making them acknowledge something that they wholly disagree with out of force?
As far as your legal sense. It is undebateable what race you are born. Can the same be said about your sexuality?

mrveggieman
11-22-2011, 01:50 PM
You should read up on the middle east. I believe you may be surprised. As far as homosexuals. I agree with you that they should be able to live their lives free from harassment and discrimination. What that means, I believe, would be different to the both of us. What they do in their home is their choice and should be kept in their home.
What do you consider respecting straight people? Making them change the laws/rules to fit? Making them acknowledge something that they wholly disagree with out of force?
As far as your legal sense. It is undebateable what race you are born. Can the same be said about your sexuality?


Some studies suggest that homosexuality is something your are born with just like being born left handed. I am neither left handed nor homosexual so I can't say one way or another but I really don't care if ther are or are not. They have to live their life just like I have to live mines. As far as respecting straight people homosexuals have the God given right to respect but that being said they need to be careful what they say to people. For example if a gay guy says the wrong thing to a straight guy and gets the crap beaten out of him then he should have been mindful of who he talks to. I'm not advocating beating anyone for no reason but homosexuals should use common sense when trying to push up on people. I have seen plenty of cases where homosexuals were flamboyant about who they talked to and have said some real disrespectful things then it another homosexual who has nothing to do with the situation gets the crap beaten out of him or killed because someone thinks that all homosexuals want all men and will force themselves on them. Some homosexuals need to do a better job policing themselves.

AUTaxMan
11-22-2011, 02:45 PM
I neither said nor suggested that the riots in Egypt were due to the Muslim persecution of Christians. I meant that you should educate yourself on both the riots and the persecution.

mrveggieman
11-22-2011, 03:22 PM
What is your opinion on the Egypt situation? Do you understand what is happening there with respect to the persecution of Christians and the riots against the military government?


????

AUTaxMan
11-22-2011, 04:23 PM
????

Let me simplify things for you:

QUESTION #1 (one part, only one answer required) - What is your opinion on the Egypt situation?

QUESTION #2 (two parts, two answers required, one for each part) - Do you understand what is happening there with respect to:

(a) the persecution of Christians, and

(b) the riots against the military government?

mrveggieman
11-22-2011, 04:46 PM
Let me simplify things for you:

QUESTION #1 (one part, only one answer required) - What is your opinion on the Egypt situation?

QUESTION #2 (two parts, two answers required, one for each part) - Do you understand what is happening there with respect to:

(a) the persecution of Christians, and

(b) the riots against the military government?


I haven't forgotton about you. I am reading up on it and will get back to you with an objective and unbiased answer to your questions.

sanfran22
11-22-2011, 04:54 PM
:lie::sign0020::confused0068:
I haven't forgotton about you. I am reading up on it and will get back to you with an objective and unbiased answer to your questions.

gatorboymike
11-22-2011, 05:31 PM
no, you are the one losing sleep worrying about when the evil totalitarian christians are going to lock you up in prison for not thinking like them. Do me a favor and tell me how many countries non-christians need to fear that in again? oh, that's right, none. how many countries persecute christians? oh, that's right, over 50.

Yeah, that's right, Christians are the oppressed minority. You all have it sooooo bad, and that's why you are rightfully entitled to even more money and power than you already have.

Give me a break. We both know that in countries where Christians are a minority, the culture there is so different from what it is here that you probably wouldn't even recognize them as or consider them to be Christians if you came face-to-face with them. And we both know you don't really care about their well-being, you never have, you never will, and you never CAN. So don't try to beat me over the head with them.

And it's not like nonbelievers aren't persecuted in every majority Muslim nation and every majority Christian nation, including the one we live in. And it's not like you and your comrades in arms aren't campaigning for a frothing, seething religious fanatic like Rick Perry as the new Pope of the United States of Jesus. Nope. Not like that at all.

ensbergcollector
11-22-2011, 06:14 PM
Yeah, that's right, Christians are the oppressed minority. You all have it sooooo bad, and that's why you are rightfully entitled to even more money and power than you already have.

Give me a break. We both know that in countries where Christians are a minority, the culture there is so different from what it is here that you probably wouldn't even recognize them as or consider them to be Christians if you came face-to-face with them. And we both know you don't really care about their well-being, you never have, you never will, and you never CAN. So don't try to beat me over the head with them.

And it's not like nonbelievers aren't persecuted in every majority Muslim nation and every majority Christian nation, including the one we live in. And it's not like you and your comrades in arms aren't campaigning for a frothing, seething religious fanatic like Rick Perry as the new Pope of the United States of Jesus. Nope. Not like that at all.

first truthful thing you have said on here in years

gatorboymike
11-22-2011, 06:33 PM
first truthful thing you have said on here in years

Just think of all the electrons that died so you could write that message.