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bangsportscards
11-24-2011, 03:07 PM
Two words: JESUS CHRIST

Tim is very open about his faith. And we all live by faith in something right! Tim chooses Christ, the truth, and with that he is going to go places. He has understanding and confidence in himself. Sure there will be downfalls but overall Tim will overcome. This world needs leaders and the best leader is one who leans on Jesus. This alone means that Tebow will go far and an NFL championship is not far fetched! Sure Tim has weaknesses and these flaws will not ultimately define things. Tim knows he’s growing, moving up, and while it may appear things are one way, there’s great stuff in the unseen yet to unfold.

I am speaking here as another Christ follower! You may not be able to see or perceive this but spiritually speaking there is a way to know something amazing is going to happen even when all the details aren’t clear. It’s either faith in disbelief or faith in a powerful Heavenly Father!

Even with an NFL championship to claim, the main focus is on how Tebow impacts each person in life along the way. A man develops character through a relationship with Jesus and then everyone starts taking notice of a positive difference. So Tebow has a wide platform to give glory to God by showing how life is intended to be, living by the simple truth of our Creator.

Indeed there is no promise of anything this year, or next in terms of winning a ring or going to the playoffs. Although that can and very possibly might happen, both perhaps! This is testimony that God is all powerful and despite what man has to say, life carries on, with those once doubting now having opportunity to choose the rewarding path that leads to victory. That experience my friends is in believing Jesus Christ with your life.

Hey you may not take stock in Tim. From what I have noticed, Tebow practices his faith with determination, and with that said I’m going to walk side by side with my brother. I know how I’ve touched my own potential here recently with Jesus and that propels me to believe Tebow-mania is riding along strong. Watch out too for Tebow on sports cards.

Brian

gladdyontherise
11-24-2011, 03:14 PM
I'm going to try and understand as best as I can, but did you just imply with this statement:


This world needs leaders and the best leader is one who leans on Jesus

that those who have the same beliefs as Tebow makes them better than everyone else?

nadeau01_johnson48
11-24-2011, 03:16 PM
We have a Religion Forum for a reason.

rchurchward
11-24-2011, 03:16 PM
Just an FYI. I've subscribed to this thread and will be keeping an eye on it. Just putting that out there for anyone to think about before they post or say something they'll regret.

bangsportscards
11-24-2011, 03:18 PM
Thanks guys for the responses.

No, not better than anyone else, but more able to do the work needed.

This is more about a relationship, not so much religion.

Brian

nadeau01_johnson48
11-24-2011, 03:19 PM
No, it's about religion. You're main point is that Tim Tebow is as 'great' as he is BECAUSE of his religion.

And like I said....we have a Religion Forum for a reason, and that reason is to keep this kind of talk out of these parts of the forums because certain people have no interest in reading this kind of stuff.

bangsportscards
11-24-2011, 03:19 PM
No regrets, if it has to be moved, that's fine.

I figured with Tim Tebow playing football, we landed this in the right spot.

Brian

CavFanatic31
11-24-2011, 03:20 PM
This one may get interesting...

bangsportscards
11-24-2011, 03:21 PM
No I'm refering that it's about a relationship with Jesus Christ, not a religion you follow.

That's all. It's Jesus life living inside a person to do "impossible" things.

Brian

jaybird_1981
11-24-2011, 03:21 PM
I don't think anyones religious convictions has anything to do with their success or lack thereof.

gladdyontherise
11-24-2011, 03:21 PM
I'm just not sure what I'm missing, what I can take from the first post is that Tebow will be better than everyone else based on his beliefs, and that those who believe the same as him will then make them better than everyone else..

I guess i'm missing something...

nadeau01_johnson48
11-24-2011, 03:21 PM
No I'm refering that it's about a relationship with Jesus Christ, not a religion you follow.

That's all. It's Jesus life living inside a person to do "impossible" things.

Brian

And I'll wait while you try to explain to me what this has to do with 'Football Chat'.

jDude1
11-24-2011, 03:22 PM
He sucks. End of story.

jDude1
11-24-2011, 03:23 PM
Hes a good person but a horrible Quarterback

bangsportscards
11-24-2011, 03:24 PM
I looked at the terms football, a football player, sports cards, and Jesus.

And I put it here, thought also about "Football Card Chat" and "General/Sports Chat".

If it's decided that it needs to be moved, then I will be ok with that.

Brian

bangsportscards
11-24-2011, 03:27 PM
His beliefs make him a better person because we all struggle and need help from something more powerful!

One main point is that value will be in Tebow's sports cards based on his good life choices.

And Gladdyontherise this was not said to condemn or look down on you or anyone.

Brian

jaybird_1981
11-24-2011, 03:27 PM
It is fine here in football chat for now.

bangsportscards
11-24-2011, 03:32 PM
It's a great word to inspire!

Brian

boba
11-24-2011, 04:55 PM
I'm a Christian, and I find it refreshing that someone in pro sports makes a stand on things that I agree with too. He is a great role model and a good person. All that being said, him being a Christian doesn't mean hes going to be a good football player. The main thing in his life seems to be wanting to go to heaven and bring as many with him before football, which I respect and wish more people would be like, but that doesn't mean hes going to be a good football player.

bangsportscards
11-24-2011, 05:22 PM
Because He puts that first boba, those perceived skill weaknesses can quite well work out with wonder to the point of doing what sells many which is bring in a championship.

Real quick, as a solid leader, those weaknesses can be drowned out as a wise decision maker Tebow doesn't lose games and effectively utilizes a whole team. And it being against traditional quarterback play wisdom is okay here!

I know not all the variables in play and as Timmy puts Jesus first, it want move me one bit if what touches many people happens in leading a team to a Super Bowl win.

You are right, he's a bright spot, and I'm thinking when was the last time the NFL had the honor to be associated with such a character as Tebow that boldly shares the Lord?! We are seeing a revolution!

It's fun to watch, cheering for Tebow!

Brian

Stone Dude
11-24-2011, 06:14 PM
Tim Tebow's beliefs haave nothing to do with his football skill.

Tim Tebow is better than he would be OTHERWISE because of his religion, but not better than anynoe else because of it.

Please dont say he is a great football player because he is Christian. He may work harder, try harder, and have more heart than he would otherwise, but it does not make him a better football player than anyone else.

Tebow follows his values, which are great values. This makes him a great person, but again, has nothing to do with a football field.

lambeauleap87
11-24-2011, 06:43 PM
Tim Tebow's beliefs haave nothing to do with his football skill.

Tim Tebow is better than he would be OTHERWISE because of his religion, but not better than anynoe else because of it.

Please dont say he is a great football player because he is Christian. He may work harder, try harder, and have more heart than he would otherwise, but it does not make him a better football player than anyone else.

Tebow follows his values, which are great values. This makes him a great person, but again, has nothing to do with a football field.

This sums up everything I was thinking going through this thread, but I wasn't quite sure how to phrase it.

spuds1961
11-24-2011, 06:48 PM
I'm a Jesus Freak,but I think Jesus and God don't even care about Football,they just care about Tim the person.

bangsportscards
11-24-2011, 07:25 PM
Ok let's keep it in perspective. Jesus gives Tim that needed edge.

Brian

gladdyontherise
11-24-2011, 07:31 PM
Ok let's keep it in perspective. Jesus gives Tim that needed edge.

Brian

He doesn't give Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers that edge though? I thought it was being kept in a perspective. Tebow plays all on his own.

spuds1961
11-24-2011, 07:33 PM
Ok let's keep it in perspective. Jesus gives Tim that needed edge.

Brian

Brian you start a thread like this and say keep it in perspective,I don't think Jesus gives anybody an edge on the football field,maybe in the locker room where he can encourage his teammates,but even that is stretching it.

bangsportscards
11-24-2011, 07:38 PM
I'm going along with you guys in part about the skill reference.

Ah sure locker room encouagement is easy.

Jesus is a magnet with faith in place.

Brian

gladdyontherise
11-24-2011, 07:41 PM
Can't it just be Tebow helped win the game for his team? Tebow is the one playing the game, not the person who he has his beliefs for...I just don't understand that line of thinking.

spuds1961
11-24-2011, 07:46 PM
With the line of thinking,being Jesus helps out those who have faith that play sports then The Yankees must be a Jesus loving,God fearing team,as 27 titles is an amazing feat,don't you think.

bangsportscards
11-24-2011, 07:47 PM
Hey no problem gladdyontherise, I understand.

Brian

bangsportscards
11-24-2011, 07:49 PM
Yeah no I wouldn't go that far spuds1961 in talking about the Yankees franchise.

I do believe God will bless a coach, player, etc with a title. It's not to be the biggest focus, although you have to equate God in the picture for a man with active faith in Jesus.

I'm throwing out Tony Dungy as an example. I believe his faith with God's truth equaled a blessing of an NFL championship. There's no doubt in my mind that God cares and helps in such situations!

Brian

jaybird_1981
11-24-2011, 07:55 PM
God blessed Dungy with Peyton Manning or he would still be titleless.

boba
11-24-2011, 07:56 PM
Yeah no I wouldn't go that far spuds1961 in talking about the Yankees franchise.

I do believe God will bless a coach, player, etc with a title. It's not biggest factor, although you have to equate God in the picture for a man with active faith in Jesus.

I'm throwing out Tony Dungy as an example. I believe his faith with God's truth equaled a blessing of an NFL championship. There's no doubt in my mind that God cares and helps in such situations!

Brian
God might think that it's best for tebow not to win a championship. I can see what your saying but God doesn't think of success like we do. Look at the book of Job.

spuds1961
11-24-2011, 07:56 PM
Yes I agree Brian,as Joe Torre managed 4 titles with the Yankees and he is a follower,but even Billy Martin won a title,so it's kind of hard to explain.

bangsportscards
11-24-2011, 07:57 PM
Right and it was trials in Dungy's coaching career till Manning came along. Thus he was a perservering man and one blessed with a championship! Amen!

Brian

bangsportscards
11-24-2011, 07:57 PM
Well God loves us all and even a man without faith can win a championship!

Brian

bangsportscards
11-24-2011, 08:01 PM
I'm praying for revelation tonight and I'll pass anything along about Tebow taking home a ring! My spirit is already leaning towards YES! :P

When it happens, God hasn't told me.

In any event, I encourage the pick up of Timmy's sports cards as great potential to rise before falling!

At this point, he has value to gain. He's an athelete like none other to come along and break the mold of your typical player.

Brian

boba
11-24-2011, 08:05 PM
I'm praying for revelation tonight and I'll pass anything along about Tebow taking home a ring! My spirit is already leaning towards YES! :P

When it happens, God hasn't told me.

In any event, I encourage the pick up of Timmy's sports cards as great potential to rise before falling!

At this point, he has value to gain. He's an athelete like none other to come along and break the mold of the typical player.

Brian
What?

jaybird_1981
11-24-2011, 08:06 PM
I'm praying for revelation tonight and I'll pass anything along about Tebow taking home a ring! My spirit is already leaning towards YES! :P

When it happens, God hasn't told me.

In any event, I encourage the pick up of Timmy's sports cards as great potential to rise before falling!

At this point, he has value to gain. He's an athelete like none other to come along and break the mold of your typical player.

Brian


Are you saying God told you Tebow would win a Super Bowl just not when?

spuds1961
11-24-2011, 08:09 PM
Brian as a follower isn't it true we are not supposed to worship or follow anybody but the chosen one,as card collectors we're all condemned,but it is a fun hobby.

bangsportscards
11-24-2011, 08:13 PM
Yeah beware of idols. You can use cards as a means to lift someone up. If that's your goal, then there isn't guilt.

God can use anyone to build a complete wise system of sharing sports cards.

As you may know and with lots of things, people easily turn to cards as an escape. Being in place and prepared with the right words makes all the difference.

Brian

nadeau01_johnson48
11-24-2011, 08:17 PM
If this thread has taught be anything, it's that

CLEARLY GOD HATES CLEVELAND.

spuds1961
11-24-2011, 08:18 PM
See Brian as Christians we always turn it around to our advantage,if we do wrong we are forgiven,if we do wrong for a good cause it is accepted.I'll tell you this though,this thread is going to explode when more members read it.I just choose to seperate scf from my beliefs,as if people are going to find faith it is not going to be on a sportscard forum.

spuds1961
11-24-2011, 08:19 PM
If this thread has taught be anything, it's that

CLEARLY GOD HATES CLEVELAND.

And the CUBS.

bangsportscards
11-24-2011, 08:24 PM
Leaving Jesus out the equation is a wrong approach!

God's mercy allows us to deal with cards.

It's your motives that count.

You can start relationships here and care for others who really may need it. You are somewhat limited but there's a way to make it happen.

I have turned to cards as a way out when all else was confusing and pressure filled!

There's always hope of a sports team winning a championship. When is not known as there's always a first all the time.

Brian

nadeau01_johnson48
11-24-2011, 08:30 PM
There's always hope of a sports team winning a championship.

Not if you're a Cleveland fan. :smash:

spuds1961
11-24-2011, 08:32 PM
Leaving Jesus out the equation is a wrong approach!

God's mercy allows us to deal with cards.

It's your motives that count.

You can start relationships here and care for others who really may need it.

I have turned to cards as a way out when all else was confusing and pressure filled!

There's always hope of a sports team winning a championship. When is not known as there's always a first all the time.

Brian

As members can attest by the amount of freebies,and the contests I have my heart is in the right place,but I'm not going to reveal my beliefs and try to bring them out on scf,as in the past it has led to one too many confrontations.I use to put quotes from the bible in my signature,but once a member called me out for writing something unChristlike I stopped.I appreciate your willingness to profess your faith,but for me being a moderator it became more trouble than it was worth.

Stone Dude
11-24-2011, 08:42 PM
I think you are misrepresenting Christians and what the religion is truly about. God cares nothing about materials and vanity yet you claim God will reward Tebow with a trophy and a title? That's exactly what living your life for God is NOT about. Like the $95,000 Jaguar convertible with the license plate "revrnd". Some people are real Christians and others like to make up their own rules as they go. So far you're not doing yourself any favors.

For the record I do not believe in God. I was raised Catholic and married into a large, strict Christian family. I return money when find it, I stop to help people change tires in the rain. I do this because its what I decided to do. When people tell me they are better than me because they have a relationship with God I call BS.

bangsportscards
11-24-2011, 08:44 PM
Yeah I hear you Steve.

People will watch what you do.

It pays to stay the course best as possible. It's good to hear you talking about the Lord!

And if anything be humble, admit a mistake, and quickly move on. We are forgiven and guilt removed immediately by the Spirit. Others may not be able to understand the things of God and at the same time steer away from explaining yourself away too much.

The best scenerio is your own testimony and with faith brewing you can make a big impact. I know that my life with less God was all over the place and now I have firmer direction!

God bless Cleveland and the Cubs. He's looking down on Spurrier with the South Carolina college football team too!

Brian

bangsportscards
11-24-2011, 08:49 PM
Hey Stone Dude, sorry to hear that. One thing I've learned about God is, you can do all good and noble things, and still be struggling about life issues. Thankfully I've cleared up mess in my personal life with Jesus and am seeing my external change dramatically. That's it, nothing too deep here. I'm saying life is so much easier with Jesus.

Money is simply a part of life. It can be used wrongly and right. Passing judgement on all Christians based on your perception doesn't change reality.

I can have hundreds of thousands of dollars, be blessed by a God who for whatever reason allows it to happen, drive whatever car it may be, and still be fine with God.

Speaking about a trophy, one doesn't have to idolize it or hold it above God.

It matters not what someone else thinks about me, you, Steve, or that guy over there. It's all about each other's relationship with God. No one is smart enough to pass a judgement call on someone's heart and motives. God has all that knowledge.

Be blessed!

Brian

1of23
11-24-2011, 08:51 PM
This is why we have a religion forum......

He will win for a little while but once the figure him out him will turn in to a TE/FB/H back

gladdyontherise
11-24-2011, 09:11 PM
If this thread has taught be anything, it's that

CLEARLY GOD HATES CLEVELAND.

:sign0020: :sign0020: :sign0020:

bangsportscards
11-24-2011, 09:16 PM
It's not about religion. It's an intimate relationship with A Savior that dies to save us from a sinful nature.

Therefore there is love for this Person who cared for me so much to lay down His life and die, rise back to life, and help a helpless person.

It's like love shown for a family, friend or wife, except it's a whole other level, which transcends the mind.

Anyways blessings to all.

Brian

jaybird_1981
11-24-2011, 09:25 PM
This to me is no longer about Tebow so it has been moved to Politics/Religion.

gatorboymike
11-25-2011, 01:12 AM
Another Tebow thread? Pardon me while I sharpen my fangs.

spuds1961
11-25-2011, 09:42 AM
Another Tebow thread? Pardon me while I sharpen my fangs.

This one's too easy for you,I'll just give you the win now :winking0071:

theonedru
11-25-2011, 12:08 PM
Hey Stone Dude, sorry to hear that. One thing I've learned about God is, you can do all good and noble things, and still be struggling about life issues. Thankfully I've cleared up mess in my personal life with Jesus and am seeing my external change dramatically. That's it, nothing too deep here. I'm saying life is so much easier with Jesus.

Money is simply a part of life. It can be used wrongly and right. Passing judgement on all Christians based on your perception doesn't change reality.

I can have hundreds of thousands of dollars, be blessed by a God who for whatever reason allows it to happen, drive whatever car it may be, and still be fine with God.

Speaking about a trophy, one doesn't have to idolize it or hold it above God.

It matters not what someone else thinks about me, you, Steve, or that guy over there. It's all about each other's relationship with God. No one is smart enough to pass a judgement call on someone's heart and motives. God has all that knowledge.

Be blessed!

Brian

I can have hundreds of thousands of dollars, be blessed by a God who for whatever reason allows it to happen, drive whatever car it may be, and still be fine with God.

I don't think so, you would be better off in the eyes of God living a humble life using whatever extra resources you have helping those in need, not stockpiling it for your objectification and glorification.

theonedru
11-25-2011, 12:11 PM
I don't think anyones religious convictions has anything to do with their success or lack thereof.

If they have little faith in their abilities they can use the faith of their religion to find it within themselves to get that little extra they need. Although it really came from within themselves they will credit an unworldly power. Still if it works, it works and good for them.

Star_Cards
11-25-2011, 06:00 PM
why exactly do you think the best leaders are ones that lean on Jesus?

I find that statement to be rather narrow minded.

Star_Cards
11-25-2011, 06:04 PM
I don't think anyones religious convictions has anything to do with their success or lack thereof.

I agree.

brandonbarnett
11-25-2011, 07:11 PM
Jesus doesn't live on earth so he can't help Tebow win.... It's faith that helps him... Because if your hearts right faith can inspire you to new heights... Don't get me wrong I love Jesus I do believe he died for my sins, and Jesus inspires me to get over things and forge thru.... But I can't give Jesus credit for things done wrong or right in my life personally... Because Jesus didn't break my bones and beat and not feed me as a baby the woman that gave birth to me did and a Doc noticed 7 breaks at turned it into the state which placed me with Mom and Dad and after 4 years let them adopt me in which I have a better life than I ever could have the other way... Jesus didn't cause me and a friend to go 95 miles a hour sideways into a tree are stupidness did...

But what Jesus and God to for me is help me keep faith that one day if I live right the pain will be gone, I will get to see my little brother,

andrewhoya
11-25-2011, 10:09 PM
One thing I got from this thread was that Tebow will win a super bowl because of his faith..... What about every other player in the league who believes in a god?

habsheaven
11-25-2011, 10:41 PM
This has got to be the most ridiculous thread I have read in a long time.

gatorboymike
11-25-2011, 10:51 PM
One thing I got from this thread was that Tebow will win a super bowl because of his faith..... What about every other player in the league who believes in a god?

Because no other players are like dogs going to the bathroom on trees to mark their scent with their religion like Tebow is, apparently.

And what's-his-name said nobody thinks God cares about football...

AUTaxMan
11-25-2011, 11:30 PM
this is the weirdest thread ever

andrewhoya
11-26-2011, 07:54 AM
Because no other players are like dogs going to the bathroom on trees to mark their scent with their religion like Tebow is, apparently.

And what's-his-name said nobody thinks God cares about football...

There are plenty of other players who are hard-core followers. Are they just chopped liver in gods mind?

If the gods didn't care about football, then why did they make it?

andrewhoya
11-26-2011, 07:57 AM
btw- gatorboymike- You are clearly passionate about hating on Christianity- why can't Tebow, or anybody else, be passionate with his religion?

gatorboymike
11-26-2011, 02:05 PM
There are plenty of other players who are hard-core followers. Are they just chopped liver in gods mind?

Ask the people who commented in this thread.


If the gods didn't care about football, then why did they make it?

Yes, highly amusing.


btw- gatorboymike- You are clearly passionate about hating on Christianity- why can't Tebow, or anybody else, be passionate with his religion?

If he thinks Christianity is the mostest bestest and mostest specialest religion in the whole wide world, whoopty-doo for him. Here's a gold star for you, Timmy. But I don't want to hear about it. Football should not be a church service or a Republican fundraiser. What are they going to do next, pass a collection plate around the arena?

People like him say that oh, they just couldn't go on without giving glory to their lord. But their words and actions prove the only thing they are interested in, have ever been interested in, will ever be interested in and CAN ever be interested in is giving glory to themselves. He's not wearing his faith on his sleeve for God's benefit. He's doing it for his own benefit. In fact, he's doing the exact opposite of what he claims God told him to do in the book he claims God wrote:


"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." - Matthew 6:5-6

spuds1961
11-26-2011, 02:18 PM
Ask the people who commented in this thread.



Yes, highly amusing.



If he thinks Christianity is the mostest bestest and mostest specialest religion in the whole wide world, whoopty-doo for him. Here's a gold star for you, Timmy. But I don't want to hear about it. Football should not be a church service or a Republican fundraiser. What are they going to do next, pass a collection plate around the arena?

People like him say that oh, they just couldn't go on without giving glory to their lord. But their words and actions prove the only thing they are interested in, have ever been interested in, will ever be interested in and CAN ever be interested in is giving glory to themselves. He's not wearing his faith on his sleeve for God's benefit. He's doing it for his own benefit. In fact, he's doing the exact opposite of what he claims God told him to do in the book he claims God wrote:

It's like I told my wife,you know more about the Bible than most people I know :winking0071:

AUTaxMan
11-26-2011, 02:43 PM
People like him say that oh, they just couldn't go on without giving glory to their lord. But their words and actions prove the only thing they are interested in, have ever been interested in, will ever be interested in and CAN ever be interested in is giving glory to themselves. He's not wearing his faith on his sleeve for God's benefit. He's doing it for his own benefit. In fact, he's doing the exact opposite of what he claims God told him to do in the book he claims God wrote:

It's truly sad that you see things this way, because it is completely based on your personal prejudices instead of what is actually true.

andrewhoya
11-26-2011, 02:57 PM
Agree, taxman.

ensbergcollector
11-26-2011, 03:04 PM
If he thinks Christianity is the mostest bestest and mostest specialest religion in the whole wide world, whoopty-doo for him. Here's a gold star for you, Timmy. But I don't want to hear about it. Football should not be a church service or a Republican fundraiser. What are they going to do next, pass a collection plate around the arena?

People like him say that oh, they just couldn't go on without giving glory to their lord. But their words and actions prove the only thing they are interested in, have ever been interested in, will ever be interested in and CAN ever be interested in is giving glory to themselves. He's not wearing his faith on his sleeve for God's benefit. He's doing it for his own benefit. In fact, he's doing the exact opposite of what he claims God told him to do in the book he claims God wrote:

so should i assume you are firmly against obama's basketball fundraiser which is being put on by over 20 nba players?

also, if players are only allowed to talk about things that we all agree they should talk about then they couldn't speak. i could care less about half the stuff they say, should they stop talking because i don't like it?

gatorboymike
11-26-2011, 03:16 PM
It's truly sad that you see things this way, because it is completely based on your personal prejudices instead of what is actually true.

Funny, that's exactly what I think about your religion.

gatorboymike
11-26-2011, 03:22 PM
so should i assume you are firmly against obama's basketball fundraiser which is being put on by over 20 nba players?

Yes, I most definitely am against it.


also, if players are only allowed to talk about things that we all agree they should talk about then they couldn't speak. i could care less about half the stuff they say, should they stop talking because i don't like it?

Ah, but you DO like it. You don't have a problem with people like Tebow making a whorish public display of his religion at every opportunity because you are the same religion as him. If some pro athlete was incessantly using his fame to promote atheism or Islam, you would be ripping him to shreds with equal or greater vehemence than that with which I attack Tebow. Your objection is based on partisanship, not principle.

ensbergcollector
11-26-2011, 03:39 PM
Yes, I most definitely am against it.



Ah, but you DO like it. You don't have a problem with people like Tebow making a whorish public display of his religion at every opportunity because you are the same religion as him. If some pro athlete was incessantly using his fame to promote atheism or Islam, you would be ripping him to shreds with equal or greater vehemence than that with which I attack Tebow. Your objection is based on partisanship, not principle.

and again you spout things that you don't know. you don't know me, what i think, or anything. you make accusations with no basis at all and pretend they are fact. while I am openly christian, if any of my posts here in the last 3+ years have revealed, i am a firm believer in equal rights for all religions. do i like that tebow is a good christian example, of course. would i be bothered by someone of islamic faith or an atheist, not really. they would definitely bother me less than tebow appears to bother all non-christians.
so basically, you attack christians bias all the while proclaiming your own from the rooftops.

gatorboymike
11-26-2011, 03:45 PM
while I am openly christian, if any of my posts here in the last 3+ years have revealed, i am a firm believer in equal rights for all religions.

Does not compute.


do i like that tebow is a good christian example, of course. would i be bothered by someone of islamic faith or an atheist, not really. they would definitely bother me less than tebow appears to bother all non-christians.
so basically, you attack christians bias all the while proclaiming your own from the rooftops.

At least I admit I'm biased. Are you willing to do the same?

andrewhoya
11-26-2011, 09:17 PM
Yes, I most definitely am against it.



Ah, but you DO like it. You don't have a problem with people like Tebow making a whorish public display of his religion at every opportunity because you are the same religion as him. If some pro athlete was incessantly using his fame to promote atheism or Islam, you would be ripping him to shreds with equal or greater vehemence than that with which I attack Tebow. Your objection is based on partisanship, not principle.

Actually, I was just talking to my aunt in the car. The main reason she dislikes Tebow is because he publicly goes out and says his opinion, trying to get people to accept his opinion. She is a Christian, btw. She said she could care less about what he thinks, and that he needs to stop trying to control peoples opinions.

gatorboymike
11-26-2011, 09:38 PM
Actually, I was just talking to my aunt in the car. The main reason she dislikes Tebow is because he publicly goes out and says his opinion, trying to get people to accept his opinion. She is a Christian, btw. She said she could care less about what he thinks, and that he needs to stop trying to control peoples opinions.

That is excellent.

pghin08
11-27-2011, 05:58 AM
Actually, I was just talking to my aunt in the car. The main reason she dislikes Tebow is because he publicly goes out and says his opinion, trying to get people to accept his opinion. She is a Christian, btw. She said she could care less about what he thinks, and that he needs to stop trying to control peoples opinions.

I don't think that Tim Tebow has ever told me that I will be eternally punished because I'm not a Christian. What Tebow does is no worse than end zone dances or LaMarr Woodley's leg kick celebration. Some people celebrate their on-field accomplishments by looking like an idiot. Tim Tebow celebrates them by thanking his savior. I have no problem with it.

andrewhoya
11-27-2011, 09:44 AM
I don't think that Tim Tebow has ever told me that I will be eternally punished because I'm not a Christian. What Tebow does is no worse than end zone dances or LaMarr Woodley's leg kick celebration. Some people celebrate their on-field accomplishments by looking like an idiot. Tim Tebow celebrates them by thanking his savior. I have no problem with it.

I think she was mainly talking about his opinions on abortion. But, I have a feeling his opinions on God being the best thing on earth had something to do with it.

AUTaxMan
11-27-2011, 11:21 AM
Funny, that's exactly what I think about your religion.

We aren't talking about my religion. We are talking about your willful ignorance of facts.

gatorboymike
11-27-2011, 02:40 PM
We aren't talking about my religion. We are talking about your willful ignorance of facts.

So then you contend that people like Tebow who make egregious public displays of their religion and run around screaming "Look at me! Look at me! I'm a Christian!" are not actually doing so for the glory of themselves but for the god they claim to believe in? You contend that doing so does not violate the scripture they claim to follow? Explain.

ensbergcollector
11-27-2011, 03:02 PM
So then you contend that people like Tebow who make egregious public displays of their religion and run around screaming "Look at me! Look at me! I'm a Christian!" are not actually doing so for the glory of themselves but for the god they claim to believe in? You contend that doing so does not violate the scripture they claim to follow? Explain.

while I do not doubt your knowledge of scripture, i do doubt your interpretation of. I think you know scripture in as much as you can use it to argue against it. If you had some historical context and understanding, you would realize that the passage from matthew that you quoted does not even remotely apply to tebow.

Jesus refers to pharisees who would pray to glorify themselves. Saying things like "I thank God that I am not like that tax collector or sinner." There was no attempt to publicly honor God, simply to honor themselves.

Now, if Tim Tebow were saying things like "I would like to thank God that I am not like those lowly sinners out there" then we could talk. If, as your post above says, were simply saying "look at me, look at me, I am a christian and better than you" then we could talk. Instead, he is attempting to bring others to the same belief he has in god. His desire is to give God the glory and not himself. Instead he says things like, "i would like to thank God"

The issue here is that people who do not like christianity, automatically assume that anyone who dares talk about it is trying to control people, push their faith down people's throats, etc.

gatorboymike
11-27-2011, 03:46 PM
I really don't see much difference between "Thank you, God, for blessing me with great athletic ability" and "Thank you, God, for making me better than those filthy commoners who aren't as awesome as me." Hence why I called him a Pharisee.

Maybe I wouldn't assume everyone who talks about Christianity did so to try to control people and push their faith down people's throats, if America wasn't so full of people who do exactly that.

andrewhoya
11-27-2011, 03:56 PM
I really don't see much difference between "Thank you, God, for blessing me with great athletic ability" and "Thank you, God, for making me better than those filthy commoners who aren't as awesome as me." Hence why I called him a Pharisee.

Maybe I wouldn't assume everyone who talks about Christianity did so to try to control people and push their faith down people's throats, if America wasn't so full of people who do exactly that.

So you're putting the 'blame' on every Christian in the world just because there are thousands of people who do 'exactly that'?

ensbergcollector
11-27-2011, 03:58 PM
I really don't see much difference between "Thank you, God, for blessing me with great athletic ability" and "Thank you, God, for making me better than those filthy commoners who aren't as awesome as me." Hence why I called him a Pharisee.

Maybe I wouldn't assume everyone who talks about Christianity did so to try to control people and push their faith down people's throats, if America wasn't so full of people who do exactly that.

there is much more judgment and intolerance coming from you toward christians then from christians toward anyone else.

gatorboymike
11-27-2011, 04:02 PM
there is much more judgment and intolerance coming from you toward christians then from christians toward anyone else.

I'm not the one who wishes an eternity of incomprehensibly horrible torture and agony upon everyone who disagrees with me or is different from me just because they disagree with me or are different from me.

ensbergcollector
11-27-2011, 04:08 PM
I'm not the one who wishes an eternity of incomprehensibly horrible torture and agony upon everyone who disagrees with me or is different from me just because they disagree with me or are different from me.

if I tell my child "I believe that if you run out into traffic you will be hit by a car" does that mean I wish for my child to be hit by a car?

just because christians believe that those who do not follow jesus will go to hell instead of heaven, in no way equates to all christians wish torture on anyone who disagrees with me.

so, it is ok for you to judge, belittle, verbally assualt christians, etc. because they feel different than you? why gbm, you are becoming that which you despise.

gatorboymike
11-27-2011, 04:18 PM
if I tell my child "I believe that if you run out into traffic you will be hit by a car" does that mean I wish for my child to be hit by a car?

More like, you tell your child "An invisible car will hit you, and then keep hitting you forever, if you don't give me back 10% of your allowance and do what I say and vote Republican for your whole life."


just because christians believe that those who do not follow jesus will go to hell instead of heaven, in no way equates to all christians wish torture on anyone who disagrees with me.

You believe God is going to torture everyone who disagrees with you in hell for eternity. You believe everything God does is right. Therefore you believe people who disagree with you being tortured in hell for eternity is a good thing.


so, it is ok for you to judge, belittle, verbally assualt christians, etc. because they feel different than you? why gbm, you are becoming that which you despise.

Do unto others, right? That's what Christians say they believe. Therefore the only possible conclusion when Christians belittle and verbally assault me is that they want me to belittle and verbally assault them. There's really no other possibility. Unless you, being the self-appointed editors of the Almanac of Life, have attached an asterisk to the golden rule, as almanac editors are wont to do, stating that you get to belittle and verbally assault others but others don't get to do it back to you, because you're just so much more awesomer and importanter and specialer than everyone else.

andrewhoya
11-27-2011, 04:26 PM
You believe God is going to torture everyone who disagrees with you in hell for eternity. You believe everything God does is right. Therefore you believe people who disagree with you being tortured in hell for eternity is a good thing.




I am a Christian, however I do not believe that non-believers will go to Hell, nor that anyone who disagrees with me religiously will be tortured for eternity.

gatorboymike
11-27-2011, 04:30 PM
I am a Christian, however I do not believe that non-believers will go to Hell, nor that anyone who disagrees with me religiously will be tortured for eternity.

If that is so, then that puts you way above other Christians in my book. Although I don't understand how you can call yourself a Christian if you don't believe that. That is the most central and most fundamental piece of dogma in the entire Christian religion.

andrewhoya
11-27-2011, 04:35 PM
If that is so, then that puts you way above other Christians in my book. Although I don't understand how you can call yourself a Christian if you don't believe that. That is the most central and most fundamental piece of dogma in the entire Christian religion.

If I believe in God, and believe in other Methodist ideas, in my book I am a Christian.

Do you agree with EVERYTHING in the US Constitution? If not, does that mean you aren't an American? Same thing with any religion, IMO.

ensbergcollector
11-27-2011, 04:46 PM
You believe God is going to torture everyone who disagrees with you in hell for eternity. You believe everything God does is right. Therefore you believe people who disagree with you being tortured in hell for eternity is a good thing.



Do unto others, right? That's what Christians say they believe. Therefore the only possible conclusion when Christians belittle and verbally assault me is that they want me to belittle and verbally assault them. There's really no other possibility. Unless you, being the self-appointed editors of the Almanac of Life, have attached an asterisk to the golden rule, as almanac editors are wont to do, stating that you get to belittle and verbally assault others but others don't get to do it back to you, because you're just so much more awesomer and importanter and specialer than everyone else.

as for paragraph 1 - if i don't like onions and onions are a vegetable, that doesn't mean i don't like vegetables. your logic is horrible and the worst part is you know it. you just enjoy twisting things to attack christianity.

as for paragraph 2 - i love that you have developed a justification for hatred and wrongdoing. the "he did it first" argument works every time huh. so was it the "turn the other cheek and love your enemies" part of christianity that bothered you so much that you rebelled? seeing as how you take pride in hating those who hate you and doing evil to those who do evil to you

habsheaven
11-27-2011, 05:09 PM
as for paragraph 1 - if i don't like onions and onions are a vegetable, that doesn't mean i don't like vegetables. your logic is horrible and the worst part is you know it. you just enjoy twisting things to attack christianity.

as for paragraph 2 - i love that you have developed a justification for hatred and wrongdoing. the "he did it first" argument works every time huh. so was it the "turn the other cheek and love your enemies" part of christianity that bothered you so much that you rebelled? seeing as how you take pride in hating those who hate you and doing evil to those who do evil to you

With the exception of ending his thought with "a good thing" (he should have stuck with the word "right") GBM first paragraph makes perfect sense. Your analogy to what he said is completely wrong. And I would think you know it.

bangsportscards
11-27-2011, 06:33 PM
Go is simple.

He loves us.

It's us, speaking in general, that get in the way of realizing truth.

Our minds like to control things. Our mind can use the bible to confirm the own lie we are believing.

Tebow may say one thing and it'll be perceived in many different ways because each person has their own belief towards God whether known or not.

Tebow can be a very great hearted guy, while others are able to discern it, there are others who will judge based on their level of understanding.

Unfortunately we all have areas of blindness. You can know the bible and yet miss the true God and what's really going on.

One can try and figure out this and that and in the end it comes down to our free will to choose life or death.

While all this said is deep in some ways, it's quite peaceful, full of joy, wonder, and creativity.

Here's a little personal testimony.....I have sold myself short because of resistance to what God intends. In doing this I've missed many opportunities. I've come to see that God wants to help and lead me to a life that I've never imagined could happen. I've decided that's ok with me and that I want more of this awesome God. And to think others can be lifted up and touched in wake of how I choose to live, well that's even sweeter. Bottom line, I'm thankful to see God more clearly and boy it's the best exprience I've had to date. Who doesn't want to live with ease, ability, influence, and free of pain? That's what my God through Jesus Christ can offer.

I'll leave the discussion at that, God bless!

Brian

gatorboymike
11-27-2011, 06:34 PM
If I believe in God, and believe in other Methodist ideas, in my book I am a Christian.

To each their own.


Do you agree with EVERYTHING in the US Constitution? If not, does that mean you aren't an American? Same thing with any religion, IMO.

Fair point, however, the US Constitution does not claim to be the infallible, inerrant word of an all-knowing, all-powerful, supernatural being. Nor does it proscribe an infinite punishment to those who are not in complete agreement with it. The Bible does.

andrewhoya
11-27-2011, 06:42 PM
To each their own.



Fair point, however, the US Constitution does not claim to be the infallible, inerrant word of an all-knowing, all-powerful, supernatural being. Nor does it proscribe an infinite punishment to those who are not in complete agreement with it. The Bible does.

Which is why I am a "non-believer" of that/those part(s).

gatorboymike
11-27-2011, 06:46 PM
as for paragraph 1 - if i don't like onions and onions are a vegetable, that doesn't mean i don't like vegetables. your logic is horrible and the worst part is you know it. you just enjoy twisting things to attack christianity.

Utterly, embarassingly, catastrophically wrong. What you just described is an inductive fallacy. My chain of logic was perfectly internally consistent:

1. God says X.
2. God is always right.
3. Therefore, X is right.

(In this case, X is "non-Christians deserve to go to hell.")

Admittedly, internal consistency is not necessarily indicative of truth. However, if you want to prove that this construction does not accurately reflect reality, you would have to demonstrate that either of the first two premises were false (or at the very least, not scriptural). Can you do that?


as for paragraph 2 - i love that you have developed a justification for hatred and wrongdoing. the "he did it first" argument works every time huh. so was it the "turn the other cheek and love your enemies" part of christianity that bothered you so much that you rebelled? seeing as how you take pride in hating those who hate you and doing evil to those who do evil to you

Says the guy whose religion rose to power on a platform of well-publicized martyrdom. Just last week I once again heard the "the disciples wouldn't die for a lie, so that proves Jesus was God" argument.

I'm just going to come right out and say that "turn the other cheek and love your enemies" is a stupid way to live. Aren't we lucky the police and the military don't operate on that policy? But no, that doesn't bother me per se; what bothers me is the fact that most self-described Christians operate by doing exactly the opposite of that. All of the most vengeful, vindictive, spiteful, hate-filled and violent people I've ever seen or known were fundamentalist Christians. And I'm also going to state flat-out that I think "You wronged me, so I'm going to wrong you back" is morally superior to "You're different from me, so I'm going to wrong you and then pretend I was ordered to do so by a supernatural being who, through some mind-blowing coincidence, hates all the same people I hate and whose political agenda is identical to mine."

gatorboymike
11-27-2011, 06:47 PM
Which is why I am a "non-believer" of that/those part(s).

In that case I have no quarrel with you, sir.

andrewhoya
11-27-2011, 06:49 PM
Utterly, embarassingly, catastrophically wrong. What you just described is an inductive fallacy. My chain of logic was perfectly internally consistent:

1. God says X.
2. God is always right.
3. Therefore, X is right.

(In this case, X is "non-Christians deserve to go to hell.")

Admittedly, internal consistency is not necessarily indicative of truth. However, if you want to prove that this construction does not accurately reflect reality, you would have to demonstrate that either of the first two premises were false (or at the very least, not scriptural). Can you do that?



Says the guy whose religion rose to power on a platform of well-publicized martyrdom. Just last week I once again heard the "the disciples wouldn't die for a lie, so that proves Jesus was God" argument.

I'm just going to come right out and say that "turn the other cheek and love your enemies" is a stupid way to live. Aren't we lucky the police and the military don't operate on that policy? But no, that doesn't bother me per se; what bothers me is the fact that most self-described Christians operate by doing exactly the opposite of that. All of the most vengeful, vindictive, spiteful, hate-filled and violent people I've ever seen or known were fundamentalist Christians. And I'm also going to state flat-out that I think "You wronged me, so I'm going to wrong you back" is morally superior to "You're different from me, so I'm going to wrong you and then pretend I was ordered to do so by a supernatural being who, through some mind-blowing coincidence, hates all the same people I hate and whose political agenda is identical to mine."
Not saying you're wrong, but this is one of the main problems I have. If God created 'em, why hate on them? So much for 'Love your enemies'?..

bangsportscards
11-27-2011, 06:55 PM
Let me say this real quick...these punishment or hell terms that gets tossed around by a lot of folks can be something that is lived out right here in the present moment.

In fact I've experienced hell on earth many days and now I'm seeing more of what heaven on earth is like.

It's tough to swallow at times how people choose to live. And they can tend to think everything is normal, as if that's the way it is or has to be. It's worth saying too that a person may not even know they have a choice or can choose a better position.

Praise God.

Brian

gatorboymike
11-27-2011, 07:00 PM
Let me say this real quick...these punishment or hell terms that gets tossed around by a lot of folks can be something that is lived out right here in the present moment.

In fact I've experienced hell on earth many days and now I'm seeing more of what heaven on earth is like.

Ah, no, that's not what the Bible says. It says you will be tortured for eternity in a lake of fire. Unless you wish to posit that "eternal torture in a lake of fire" is a metaphor for "being sad." And I'm not buying that.

bangsportscards
11-27-2011, 08:02 PM
Thanks for the response gatorboymike.

That phrase for one relates the significance or tries to convey the idea of how life apart from God is hard, meaningless, troublesome, a struggle, etc.

Again our mind tends to want to see it every different way than what's being said.

We can all read the bible and not get it's true message. I'm still a learner.

On a general side note I saw the end of the Broncos game and Tim helped the team to a victory.

Brian

andrewhoya
11-27-2011, 08:04 PM
On a general side note I saw the end of the Broncos game and Tim helped the team to a victory.

Brian

Which I'm sure was allllll because of God :rolleyes:

spuds1961
11-27-2011, 08:22 PM
Ah, no, that's not what the Bible says. It says you will be tortured for eternity in a lake of fire. Unless you wish to posit that "eternal torture in a lake of fire" is a metaphor for "being sad." And I'm not buying that.

I thought it said fishing for eternity in a lake of fire,meaning the fish you catch would already be cooked,which is a good thing right.

Hilfiger1975
11-27-2011, 08:24 PM
Tim Tebow is 5-1 and i'm going to become a christian, because of it...he has truly shown me the light!

Hilfiger1975
11-27-2011, 08:25 PM
Tim Tebow is 5-1 and i'm going to become a christian, because of it...he has truly shown me the light!
/sarcasm

Congrats, to Tim Tebow AND the Broncos on their win today...

spuds1961
11-27-2011, 08:30 PM
Love him or hate him this thread has already received almost a thousand views,so I would say he has somewhat of a following.

AUTaxMan
11-27-2011, 09:46 PM
1. God says X.
2. God is always right.
3. Therefore, X is right.

(In this case, X is "non-Christians deserve to go to hell.")



Your logic in this instance is dead on, but you are wholly missing the point of Christianity. We do believe that non-believers will go to hell. The point, however, is that we Christians want everyone else to be Christians also. You said that we want you to go to hell. No, we don't. We want you to believe what we believe, and we want you to go to heaven.

I don't want to force you to believe what I believe, as I wouldn't want anyone to force their beliefs on me. I want you to make that decision on your own. If you choose to not make that decision, there's nothing I can do about it. I don't begrudge you for it. I pity you for it, but not in a sense of moral superiority. I pity you because you don't know what you're missing out on, and it makes me sad for you.

The Christian religion is about love, not hate. That is a fact.

bangsportscards
11-27-2011, 09:47 PM
Right on and exactly what's needed in someone unique stepping up to intrigue and attract towards Jesus.

I'm imagining now the great rewards of grasping Tebow sports cards in the process of hitting the 1,000,000 view mark.

I don't want to miss an open door from my Father.

Brian

bangsportscards
11-27-2011, 09:50 PM
That force feeling is mis-perceived pressure being felt from not wanting to open up to God's love!

That's all, nothing more.

Brian

andrewhoya
11-27-2011, 10:00 PM
Mike, I wish I could see your reactions when you read all these posts from our new friend :-)

INTIMADATOR2007
11-27-2011, 10:06 PM
Your logic in this instance is dead on, but you are wholly missing the point of Christianity. We do believe that non-believers will go to hell. The point, however, is that we Christians want everyone else to be Christians also. You said that we want you to go to hell. No, we don't. We want you to believe what we believe, and we want you to go to heaven.

I don't want to force you to believe what I believe, as I wouldn't want anyone to force their beliefs on me. I want you to make that decision on your own. If you choose to not make that decision, there's nothing I can do about it. I don't begrudge you for it. I pity you for it, but not in a sense of moral superiority. I pity you because you don't know what you're missing out on, and it makes me sad for you.

The Christian religion is about love, not hate. That is a fact.

Well said !

bangsportscards
11-27-2011, 10:15 PM
God is doing things through Tim Tebow in impacting lives at a real life level and at the same time blessing the team with victories.

While people look at surface issues with their ideas of qualities for a compotent QB, greater things are happening all around in the most meaningful ways.

Amazing.

Let's give the Lord praise.

Use Tebow oh Lord for your message.

Brian

habsheaven
11-27-2011, 10:17 PM
God is doing things through Tim Tebow in impacting lives at a real life level and at the same time blessing the team with victories.

While people look at surface issues with their ideas of qualities for a compotent QB, greater things are happening all around in the most meaningful ways.

Amazing.

Let's give the Lord praise.

Use Tebow oh Lord for your message.

Brian

This is too funny. As God blesses the Broncos with victories he damns the opponents with losses. I gotta get some of what your smokin. lmao

Playhard
11-27-2011, 10:20 PM
Christians don't believe who don't believe go to he'll, that's catholic!

ensbergcollector
11-27-2011, 10:24 PM
Utterly, embarassingly, catastrophically wrong. What you just described is an inductive fallacy. My chain of logic was perfectly internally consistent:

1. God says X.
2. God is always right.
3. Therefore, X is right.

(In this case, X is "non-Christians deserve to go to hell.")

Admittedly, internal consistency is not necessarily indicative of truth. However, if you want to prove that this construction does not accurately reflect reality, you would have to demonstrate that either of the first two premises were false (or at the very least, not scriptural). Can you do that?



Says the guy whose religion rose to power on a platform of well-publicized martyrdom. Just last week I once again heard the "the disciples wouldn't die for a lie, so that proves Jesus was God" argument.

I'm just going to come right out and say that "turn the other cheek and love your enemies" is a stupid way to live. Aren't we lucky the police and the military don't operate on that policy? But no, that doesn't bother me per se; what bothers me is the fact that most self-described Christians operate by doing exactly the opposite of that. All of the most vengeful, vindictive, spiteful, hate-filled and violent people I've ever seen or known were fundamentalist Christians. And I'm also going to state flat-out that I think "You wronged me, so I'm going to wrong you back" is morally superior to "You're different from me, so I'm going to wrong you and then pretend I was ordered to do so by a supernatural being who, through some mind-blowing coincidence, hates all the same people I hate and whose political agenda is identical to mine."

your perfect logic falls apart when instead of saying christians agree with god and instead say christians want anyone who disagrees with them to burn in hell. you made a leap from christians agree with god to christians want people to suffer. therefore, your logic is crap.

as to the second half, you will use whatever crap you can to justify your hatred of christians. i have never known anyone with more hatred toward a group of people then you do toward christians. and you will try and act like you have some "divine" right to hatred because some faceless christian has been mean to you.

so, let me set it straight. christians do not want anyone to go to hell. just because we believe in hell does not equal wanting anyone to go there. You keep talking about christians hating anyone who doesn't agree with them. Problem is, it has nothing to do with agreeing with us. Christianity is about belief and relationship with jesus.

Hatred and venom directed at any group is wrong. You don't get a free pass because you say christians have been mean to you.

bangsportscards
11-27-2011, 10:28 PM
Hey habsheaven.

No one is damned in the sense of God looking down and causing some sort of misery to a team.

You can be blessed as well even when the scoreboard isn't in your favor.

All instances ultimately come down to a personal understanding of the Lord.

Brian

gatorboymike
11-27-2011, 10:37 PM
Your logic in this instance is dead on, but you are wholly missing the point of Christianity. We do believe that non-believers will go to hell. The point, however, is that we Christians want everyone else to be Christians also. You said that we want you to go to hell. No, we don't. We want you to believe what we believe, and we want you to go to heaven.


The Christian religion is about love, not hate. That is a fact.

If that is so, you fail miserably at convincing me. You and most of your comrades in arms demonstrate nothing I would call love. It is quite obvious from their actions that they do not have anyone else's well-being in mind and never have. It is quite obvious that they are only concerned with finding some excuse to say "Nyah nyah, I'm better than you," and that is what their religion is all about. Plus there's the fact that most sects of Christianity preach the doctrine of irrevocable damnation, which states not that "you'll go to hell unless you join us," but rather "you're going to hell and there's nothing you can do about it." And you wouldn't really want me around you in heaven, either. You have nothing but vitriolic, venom-drenched loathing, abhorrence and contempt for me.


I don't want to force you to believe what I believe, as I wouldn't want anyone to force their beliefs on me. I want you to make that decision on your own. If you choose to not make that decision, there's nothing I can do about it. I don't begrudge you for it. I pity you for it, but not in a sense of moral superiority. I pity you because you don't know what you're missing out on, and it makes me sad for you.

Well, let me drag engsberg's example into this. He says, if you saw somebody standing in the road with a speeding car heading toward them, wouldn't you try to save them? Maybe you don't agree with his analogy, but let's assume you do, because you seem to agree with him about a lot of things.

The way you treat this issue proves that either you do not actually believe what you say, or you do not actually care about my well-being. If you saw a person standing in the road with a speeding car heading toward them in real life, what would you do? Would you, A.) instantly drop what you were doing and jump into the street to grab the person, or, B.) stand there and listlessly offer half-hearted appeals while saying you respect their decision to stand there and get killed by the car, if that's what they really want?

I think we can safely assume going to hell is infinitely worse than being hit by a car. Therefore, if your response is not proportionally increased, you obviously are not treating the two scenarios equally or conceiving of them as equivalent in your mind. I've said before, as your comrade-in-arms engsberg knows, that if you're not grabbing people by the collar and hysterically begging and pleading with them with your every last ounce of strength to change their ways immediately to avoid hell, then you either don't really believe hell awaits them or you don't really care that hell awaits them. Hence, you want me to go to hell. And really, if I go to hell, that just means a bigger slice of the God's Love pie for you, doesn't it?

Hilfiger1975
11-27-2011, 10:39 PM
Your logic in this instance is dead on, but you are wholly missing the point of Christianity. We do believe that non-believers will go to hell. The point, however, is that we Christians want everyone else to be Christians also. You said that we want you to go to hell. No, we don't. We want you to believe what we believe, and we want you to go to heaven.

I don't want to force you to believe what I believe, as I wouldn't want anyone to force their beliefs on me. I want you to make that decision on your own. If you choose to not make that decision, there's nothing I can do about it. I don't begrudge you for it. I pity you for it, but not in a sense of moral superiority. I pity you because you don't know what you're missing out on, and it makes me sad for you.

The Christian religion is about love, not hate. That is a fact.
Too bad christian history doesn't follow that fact...

AUTaxMan
11-27-2011, 10:43 PM
Too bad christian history doesn't follow that fact...

You're right in many instances. That is unfortunate. However, the good far exceeds the bad.

gatorboymike
11-27-2011, 10:45 PM
your perfect logic falls apart when instead of saying christians agree with god and instead say christians want anyone who disagrees with them to burn in hell. you made a leap from christians agree with god to christians want people to suffer. therefore, your logic is crap.

Well let's extend that chain of logic and you can show me exactly where I'm wrong.

(From my prior post which you do not dispute)
1. God says non-Christians deserve to burn in hell.
2. God is always right.
3. Therefore, non-Christians deserve to burn in hell.

(From your own words)
4. Christians agree with God.

(Following 3 and 4)
5. Christians agree that non-Christians deserve to burn in hell.

(From scripture)
6. God has a plan for everyone.
7. God's plan is always right and good.
8. God's plan for some people is that they will burn in hell.

(Following 6 and 8)
9. It's right and good that God has planned for some people to burn in hell.

(Following 4 and 9)
10. Christians believe it's right and good that some people will burn in hell.

(By the definitions of right and good)
11. Things that are right and good are desirable.

(Following 10 and 11)
12. Christians desire for some people to burn in hell.


so, let me set it straight. christians do not want anyone to go to hell. just because we believe in hell does not equal wanting anyone to go there. You keep talking about christians hating anyone who doesn't agree with them. Problem is, it has nothing to do with agreeing with us. Christianity is about belief and relationship with jesus.

Yeah, and if I don't AGREE WITH YOU that belief and relationship with Jesus is either possible or desirable, you want me to go to hell.

habsheaven
11-27-2011, 10:52 PM
Hey habsheaven.

No one is damned in the sense of God looking down and causing some sort of misery to a team.

You can be blessed as well even when the scoreboard isn't in your favor.

All instances ultimately come down to a personal understanding of the Lord.

Brian

Hey Brian,

In order for God to "bless" one team with a WIN another team has to be saddled with a LOSS. Can't get around that. Always good to see God picking favourites. All instances ultimately come down to a suspension of reality.

AUTaxMan
11-27-2011, 10:57 PM
If that is so, you fail miserably at convincing me. You and most of your comrades in arms demonstrate nothing I would call love.

Please tell me what I have done to demonstrate to you otherwise. Also, please tell me who are my comrades in arms.


It is quite obvious from their actions that they do not have anyone else's well-being in mind and never have.

Whose actions? What actions?


It is quite obvious that they are only concerned with finding some excuse to say "Nyah nyah, I'm better than you," and that is what their religion is all about.

Why is it "quite obvious"? What makes you believe that that is what "their religion" is all about?


Plus there's the fact that most sects of Christianity preach the doctrine of irrevocable damnation, which states not that "you'll go to hell unless you join us," but rather "you're going to hell and there's nothing you can do about it."

How much is "most"? Can you please provide specifics as to which sects preach this? Is "most" greater than 50%? How many sects are there?


And you wouldn't really want me around you in heaven, either. You have nothing but vitriolic, venom-drenched loathing, abhorrence and contempt for me.

This is just plain wrong. Are you talking about me specifically, or the collective "you"? If you are talking about me, please provide quotes of my virtiolic, venom-drenched loathing for you.


The way you treat this issue proves that either you do not actually believe what you say, or you do not actually care about my well-being. If you saw a person standing in the road with a speeding car heading toward them in real life, what would you do? Would you, A.) instantly drop what you were doing and jump into the street to grab the person, or, B.) stand there and listlessly offer half-hearted appeals while saying you respect their decision to stand there and get killed by the car, if that's what they really want?

I think we can safely assume going to hell is infinitely worse than being hit by a car. Therefore, if your response is not proportionally increased, you obviously are not treating the two scenarios equally or conceiving of them as equivalent in your mind. I've said before, as your comrade-in-arms engsberg knows, that if you're not grabbing people by the collar and hysterically begging and pleading with them with your every last ounce of strength to change their ways immediately to avoid hell, then you either don't really believe hell awaits them or you don't really care that hell awaits them. Hence, you want me to go to hell.

I have extended the olive branch to you on multiple occasions and drawn back nothing but a nub. I have tried to explain things to you kindly and with open arms, and you do nothing but mock, offend, and ridicule. God gave us all free will. Would grabbing non-Christians by the collar and hysterically begging and pleading with them be more effective, or less effective, in possibly converting them?


And really, if I go to hell, that just means a bigger slice of the God's Love pie for you, doesn't it?

God's love is infinite.

bangsportscards
11-27-2011, 11:00 PM
Thoughts here before I head to bed.

I can choose to have a relationship with Jesus or not. Is this easy? It's definitely a challenge. God helps at every step.

For the record I've been a Christian 5 years.

I've found it's easy to mess up in this Jesus relationship. And there's always good reason for it happening.

I have lived life like I wanted to for a long time. I thought everything was fine. I was convinced in my mind that I was okay. It went on for a long time. It happens so easy. One day I came to a breaking point. Man life is tough huh, it can take us for a loop.

I have found that I can do whatever I want and carry on like this for quite a whlile. And these choices really hurt me and caused confusion.

I'm also seeing that I was choosing to do what I wanted and now am able to choose to grow in relationship with Jesus.

I will not win at life without Jesus part of it. I need to be responsible and looking to God for help.

I am very rebellious by nature. This is an ego thing that likes to take over. It takes a lot of work with my Jesus relationship to experience a truly happy life.

God is willing and desiring to give me tools to succeed at everything I set out to do. That is what encourages my will to go on with Jesus.

Ok good night. Tomorrow is a new day for all.

Brian

AUTaxMan
11-27-2011, 11:00 PM
Well let's extend that chain of logic and you can show me exactly where I'm wrong.

(From my prior post which you do not dispute)
1. God says non-Christians deserve to burn in hell.
2. God is always right.
3. Therefore, non-Christians deserve to burn in hell.

(From your own words)
4. Christians agree with God.

(Following 3 and 4)
5. Christians agree that non-Christians deserve to burn in hell.

(From scripture)
6. God has a plan for everyone.
7. God's plan is always right and good.
8. God's plan for some people is that they will burn in hell.

(Following 6 and 8)
9. It's right and good that God has planned for some people to burn in hell.

(Following 4 and 9)
10. Christians believe it's right and good that some people will burn in hell.

(By the definitions of right and good)
11. Things that are right and good are desirable.

(Following 10 and 11)
12. Christians desire for some people to burn in hell.



Yeah, and if I don't AGREE WITH YOU that belief and relationship with Jesus is either possible or desirable, you want me to go to hell.

Where did you get #8? That's where you derail.

ensbergcollector
11-27-2011, 11:05 PM
Well let's extend that chain of logic and you can show me exactly where I'm wrong.

(From my prior post which you do not dispute)
1. God says non-Christians deserve to burn in hell.
2. God is always right.
3. Therefore, non-Christians deserve to burn in hell.

(From your own words)
4. Christians agree with God.

(Following 3 and 4)
5. Christians agree that non-Christians deserve to burn in hell.

(From scripture)
6. God has a plan for everyone.
7. God's plan is always right and good.
8. God's plan for some people is that they will burn in hell.

(Following 6 and 8)
9. It's right and good that God has planned for some people to burn in hell.

(Following 4 and 9)
10. Christians believe it's right and good that some people will burn in hell.

(By the definitions of right and good)
11. Things that are right and good are desirable.

(Following 10 and 11)
12. Christians desire for some people to burn in hell.



Yeah, and if I don't AGREE WITH YOU that belief and relationship with Jesus is either possible or desirable, you want me to go to hell.

if you don't agree with me that belief and relationship with jesus is either possible or desirable, I do not want you to go to hell. That is the line you are using to justify your anger and yet you have no basis for that statement.

also, the speeding car analogy was yours, not mine. you used it to argue that either people don't believe what they think or they don't care for anyone.

gatorboymike
11-27-2011, 11:10 PM
Where did you get #8? That's where you derail.

If God plans for some people to be saved, then it necessarily follows he plans for some people to be damned.

"Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: 'He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'"
- John 12:39-40

"Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens."
- Romans 9:18

"What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction."
- Romans 9:22

"What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded."
- Romans 11:7

"And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie."
- II Thessalonians 2:11

bangsportscards
11-27-2011, 11:12 PM
The flesh (life apart from God through Jesus) is a resistant thing that wants to keep God out and to the side! It wants to be secure and keep people to themselves, thus warring against instead of coming together as community.

We need more of the Spirit!

God's love is greater!

It's good to have you around gatorboymike.

Night from South Carolina!

Brian

Hilfiger1975
11-27-2011, 11:27 PM
You're right in many instances. That is unfortunate. However, the good far exceeds the bad.
I guess that just matters who you ask, since dead can't talk, huh?

AUTaxMan
11-27-2011, 11:34 PM
I guess that just matters who you ask, since dead can't talk, huh?

How am I supposed to respond? Christianity is bad because there have been and are Christians who have sinned?

Hilfiger1975
11-27-2011, 11:36 PM
How am I supposed to respond? Christianity is bad because there have been and are Christians who have sinned?
I generally look at how many have died, because of a single religion...

AUTaxMan
11-27-2011, 11:41 PM
I generally look at how many have died, because of a single religion...

What about how many people who have been saved, because of a single religion?

gatorboymike
11-27-2011, 11:42 PM
What about how many people who have been saved, because of a single religion?

I don't think you get to count those unless you can prove salvation is actually real.

Hilfiger1975
11-27-2011, 11:42 PM
What about how many people who have been saved, because of a single religion?
Sorry, i need facts not opinions...

duane1969
11-27-2011, 11:43 PM
Well let's extend that chain of logic and you can show me exactly where I'm wrong.

(From my prior post which you do not dispute)
1. God says non-Christians deserve to burn in hell.
2. God is always right.
3. Therefore, non-Christians deserve to burn in hell.

(From your own words)
4. Christians agree with God.

(Following 3 and 4)
5. Christians agree that non-Christians deserve to burn in hell.

(From scripture)
6. God has a plan for everyone.
7. God's plan is always right and good.
8. God's plan for some people is that they will burn in hell.

(Following 6 and 8)
9. It's right and good that God has planned for some people to burn in hell.

(Following 4 and 9)
10. Christians believe it's right and good that some people will burn in hell.

(By the definitions of right and good)
11. Things that are right and good are desirable.

(Following 10 and 11)
12. Christians desire for some people to burn in hell.



Yeah, and if I don't AGREE WITH YOU that belief and relationship with Jesus is either possible or desirable, you want me to go to hell.

Unlike others, I am going to say you went off-track at #1. After a life of being rasied in the church, I can not recall a single verse where it says that God says that non-Christians deserve to burn in hell.

Humans make their own decision. They either choose salvation or they choose sin. Their choice determines their destiny, not God. Christianity teaches that by the acts of Adam and Eve all men are destined to hell, but saved by the gift given by the blood of Christ on the cross. However that gift must be accepted.

Hilfiger1975
11-27-2011, 11:43 PM
I don't think you get to count those unless you can prove salvation is actually real.
GREAT answer!

AUTaxMan
11-27-2011, 11:48 PM
I don't think you get to count those unless you can prove salvation is actually real.

I'm talking lives saved.

AUTaxMan
11-27-2011, 11:53 PM
And GBM, am I to take it that you've decided not to answer my questions in response to your earlier rant/personal attack on me?

boba
11-27-2011, 11:56 PM
I generally look at how many have died, because of a single religion...

Not counting the catholic church, not many have died because of religion. Not understanding your guys points.

gatorboymike
11-27-2011, 11:58 PM
Unlike others, I am going to say you went off-track at #1. After a life of being rasied in the church, I can not recall a single verse where it says that God says that non-Christians deserve to burn in hell.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
"For the wages of sin is death."
- Romans 3:23; Romans 6:23

"What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?"
- Romans 9:22

"[B]y grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory."
- Ephesians 2:8-9

"[W]hoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."
- John 3:18

"[W]hoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
- John 3:36

"[W]hoever does not believe will be condemned."
- Mark 16:16

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5180/5399305159_67052638b0.jpg


Humans make their own decision. They either choose salvation or they choose sin. Their choice determines their destiny, not God. Christianity teaches that by the acts of Adam and Eve all men are destined to hell, but saved by the gift given by the blood of Christ on the cross. However that gift must be accepted.

And you just said you never heard God say non-Christians deserve to go to hell. Seriously, I can't believe you guys sometimes.

gatorboymike
11-28-2011, 12:02 AM
And GBM, am I to take it that you've decided not to answer my questions in response to your earlier rant/personal attack on me?

I don't respond well to barrages of questions. But I will say this. Almost everything you've ever said to me has been of an insulting or attacking nature. As has been almost everything that almost every Christian I've ever seen or known has said to me. And if God's love is infinite, that makes it worthless.

boba
11-28-2011, 12:03 AM
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
"For the wages of sin is death."
- Romans 3:23; Romans 6:23

"What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?"
- Romans 9:22

"[b]y grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory."
- Ephesians 2:8-9

"[W]hoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."
- John 3:18

"[W]hoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
- John 3:36

"[W]hoever does not believe will be condemned."
- Mark 16:16

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5180/5399305159_67052638b0.jpg



And you just said you never heard God say non-Christians deserve to go to hell. Seriously, I can't believe you guys sometimes.

You can't break up his post like that, he was saying that God gives man free will to follow him or to not follow him. All those verses are about if you choose not to follow him. God cares about us so much that he sent his son to die for us so that we can escape hell and go to heaven.

AUTaxMan
11-28-2011, 12:04 AM
Not counting the catholic church, not many have died because of religion. Not understanding your guys points.

The point is that atrocities that occurred between 400 and 1,000 years ago are supremely relevant to Christians today.

ensbergcollector
11-28-2011, 12:04 AM
Seriously, I can't believe you guys sometimes.

and you have managed to paint a nice picture to hang on your wall that justifies you living a hate filled life full of judgement and condemnation. And what is worse is that you come on this site, and who knows how many others, denouncing christianity for it's hatred and judgement. As far as I can tell, no one who lives with the kind of hate you do is deserving of any commentary attacking someone else's judgment. I would like to say i can't believe you guys sometimes but i have read enough of your posts over the years that i do believe it.

AUTaxMan
11-28-2011, 12:13 AM
I don't respond well to barrages of questions. But I will say this. Almost everything you've ever said to me has been of an insulting or attacking nature. As has been almost everything that almost every Christian I've ever seen or known has said to me. And if God's love is infinite, that makes it worthless.

Look, man, you need to play by your own rules. You have the gall to shower me with a bunch of falsehoods and generalities while at the same time demanding specific, logical answers, and then you hide under the excuse of not responding well to barrages of questions?

Never once have I insulted or attacked you. Not once. You immediately place me on the defensive when this subject comes up, and I ALWAYS respond with calm, reasoned answers. Not one time have I attacked or insulted you. If I have, please show me the specific post, and I will apologize for it, because I do not EVER want to come across that way.

Nevertheless, if you come attacking, I am not just going to lay down and take it. My answers will be firm and rooted in my beliefs, but I still respond in love. Just because I disagree with you on something does not mean that I am insulting you.

gatorboymike
11-28-2011, 12:22 AM
Never once have I insulted or attacked you. Not once. You immediately place me on the defensive when this subject comes up, and I ALWAYS respond with calm, reasoned answers. Not one time have I attacked or insulted you. If I have, please show me the specific post, and I will apologize for it, because I do not EVER want to come across that way.

Nevertheless, if you come attacking, I am not just going to lay down and take it. My answers will be firm and rooted in my beliefs, but I still respond in love. Just because I disagree with you on something does not mean that I am insulting you.

You believe that, because I disagree with you, I deserve to go to hell. How much more insulting can you possibly be? The answer: no more insulting. That is the most insulting thing anyone can ever think about anyone else.

But fine, if you really want answers to that barrage of questions, say so, and I'll take a few minutes to answer them.

boba
11-28-2011, 12:25 AM
You believe that, because I disagree with you, I deserve to go to hell. How much more insulting can you possibly be? The answer: no more insulting. That is the most insulting thing anyone can ever think about anyone else.

But fine, if you really want answers to that barrage of questions, say so, and I'll take a few minutes to answer them.

No one said you deserve to go to hell, it's not our job to judge who gos to heaven or hell. That's God's job thank goodness.

AUTaxMan
11-28-2011, 12:30 AM
You believe that, because I disagree with you, I deserve to go to hell. How much more insulting can you possibly be? The answer: no more insulting. That is the most insulting thing anyone can ever think about anyone else.

But fine, if you really want answers to that barrage of questions, say so, and I'll take a few minutes to answer them.

So you believe there is a hell?

gatorboymike
11-28-2011, 02:39 AM
So you believe there is a hell?

Of course not. But YOU do. And "you're so rotten you deserve to be tortured forever" is still an incomprehensibly evil thing to wish upon someone else.

If I believed in Cthulhu, I'm guessing you wouldn't like it if I told you that I was eagerly awaiting the day when he rose up from Rl'yeh so he could eat you and your loved ones.

AUTaxMan
11-28-2011, 08:02 AM
Of course not. But YOU do. And "you're so rotten you deserve to be tortured forever" is still an incomprehensibly evil thing to wish upon someone else.

If I believed in Cthulhu, I'm guessing you wouldn't like it if I told you that I was eagerly awaiting the day when he rose up from Rl'yeh so he could eat you and your loved ones.

Where do you keep getting this concept that I "want" you to go to hell? I find it very difficult to reconcile with my prior comment that "we want you to go to heaven."

Also, where did I say you're "rotten"? Like boba said, we're not in the business of judging men's hearts. That's God's. The Bible says that the wages of all sin is death (i.e., going to hell). It is not about being a good person or a bad person. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. This applies to all people, even Christians. However, there is hope for us all in that Christ paid the price for all of our sins through his crucifixion and resurrection. This means that we do not have to pay that price if we accept Jesus as our personal savior.

Your Cthulhu analogy is off the mark, unless you are offended by my wanting you to go to heaven. Would I be terribly offended if you were looking forward to my going to Cthulhu's version of heaven? No.

duane1969
11-28-2011, 08:41 AM
"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
"For the wages of sin is death."
- Romans 3:23; Romans 6:23

"What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?"
- Romans 9:22

"[B]y grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, that no man should glory."
- Ephesians 2:8-9

"[W]hoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."
- John 3:18

"[W]hoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
- John 3:36

"[W]hoever does not believe will be condemned."
- Mark 16:16

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5180/5399305159_67052638b0.jpg



And you just said you never heard God say non-Christians deserve to go to hell. Seriously, I can't believe you guys sometimes.

Nowhere in any of that does it say that God says non-believers deserve to go to hell. Every verse you quoted speaks to the outcome of rejecting Jesus Christ as your savior.

Nice try at twisting what it says, but you entirely failed to prove your original #1 statement.

You also didn't bother to include the other parts of those scriptures which expands on them. For example, Romans 6:23 says (your quoted part) "For the wages of sin is death" (and the part you conveniently left out) "but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Like I said, nice try, but still a failure to prove that God thinks non-believers deserve to go to hell.

mrveggieman
11-28-2011, 10:25 AM
Just an FYI. I've subscribed to this thread and will be keeping an eye on it. Just putting that out there for anyone to think about before they post or say something they'll regret.


Wow good thing that I was out of town for the holiday with no access to a computer and it being really hard to follow this site on my cell phone (Ya'll need to get an app for android) or I may have got in trouble. :sign0020:. Seriously though I have read some of Brian's posts on the football forum and he seems like a good guy who didn't mean any harm by posting this thread. But as far as his original post let me give my two cents on the matter. Is it possible that the christian God has blessed Tebow with his athletic abilities to do what he does on the football field yes. However to be fair it is also possible that the God of Islam Allah could have blessed him as well. You can even say the Greek Good Zeus blessed him too. Or you can say that no God has blessed him and that it is all in his head. My point is whatever Tebow is doing is working for him so I am not going to knock him for doing what he feels in his heart is right. Like I said on previous threads Tebow is the anti- jerry fallwell. He is a strong christian who lives a positive life and is not out judging people or being a hyprocryte. You don't hear about Tebow raping anyone at the nightclub, doing drive by shootings, molesting kids, killing dogs or killing anyone while drinking and driving. Wheather or not christanity is a false religion is totally irrelevant to me as far as tebow goes. If Christanity is what keeps tebow grounded and gives him an edge on the football field then more power to him. However there were some interesting points bought up. If there was an athlete who was a open muslim, budhist, atheist, homosexual, etc would he/she be celebrated as an american hero? Just a little food for thought. Feel free to comment back.

Also on a side note does anyone know if Tebow signs autographs ttm?

mrveggieman
11-28-2011, 10:33 AM
I am a Christian, however I do not believe that non-believers will go to Hell, nor that anyone who disagrees with me religiously will be tortured for eternity.

+1

I believe if/when some of you go to heaven you will be surprised at who you will see there. There will be people of different races, nationalities, politicial believes and yes religions. Muslims, Christians, Jews, etc will be able to sit down with God as brothers and sisters.

ensbergcollector
11-28-2011, 11:04 AM
Of course not. But YOU do. And "you're so rotten you deserve to be tortured forever" is still an incomprehensibly evil thing to wish upon someone else.

If I believed in Cthulhu, I'm guessing you wouldn't like it if I told you that I was eagerly awaiting the day when he rose up from Rl'yeh so he could eat you and your loved ones.

and this is where your argument falls apart. if christians are saying to you "i want you to burn in hell" they are 100% wrong and I would be the first to tell them that. If they are simply saying, according to my beliefs, if you don't accept jesus, then you will go to hell, they aren't out of bounds.

if you told me, i hope my god tortures you for eternity, you would be wrong. if you said "according to my beliefs, cthulhu is going to eat you and your loved ones" it would not bother me in the least. why should i care if something i don't believe in is a "threat" to me?

so, for clarification, if someone says "i hope you are tortured for eternity" they are wrong. if they say "according to my beliefs you will be" is not. those are two totally different attitudes and thoughts. christians normally take the latter while you like to imply they take the former. if you "threaten" me with punishment from a god i don't believe in, why the crap should i care?

AUTaxMan
11-28-2011, 11:31 AM
+1

I believe if/when some of you go to heaven you will be surprised at who you will see there. There will be people of different races, nationalities, politicial believes and yes religions. Muslims, Christians, Jews, etc will be able to sit down with God as brothers and sisters.

Just out of curiosity, why do you believe that?

bangsportscards
11-28-2011, 11:44 AM
Veggieman,

That's testimony to how deceived today's society is.

Your mind can think that many ways lead to the same place.

Regardless what your mind says, you can't out think God's truth. God works by spirit.

You're always limited in power when you allow your mind to usurp God's truth.

Sure you can live a good life and that's the subtle work of Satan. Satan is hard at work these days and God is always the Almighty!

Brian

sanfran22
11-28-2011, 12:00 PM
+1

I believe if/when some of you go to heaven you will be surprised at who you will see there. There will be people of different races, nationalities, politicial believes and yes religions. Muslims, Christians, Jews, etc will be able to sit down with God as brothers and sisters.

You realize that goes directly against what the Bible teaches correct?

AUTaxMan
11-28-2011, 12:02 PM
you realize that goes directly against what the bible teaches correct?

+1

Also, mrv, Muslims and Christians worship the same God.

habsheaven
11-28-2011, 12:05 PM
and this is where your argument falls apart. if christians are saying to you "i want you to burn in hell" they are 100% wrong and I would be the first to tell them that. If they are simply saying, according to my beliefs, if you don't accept jesus, then you will go to hell, they aren't out of bounds.

if you told me, i hope my god tortures you for eternity, you would be wrong. if you said "according to my beliefs, cthulhu is going to eat you and your loved ones" it would not bother me in the least. why should i care if something i don't believe in is a "threat" to me?

so, for clarification, if someone says "i hope you are tortured for eternity" they are wrong. if they say "according to my beliefs you will be" is not. those are two totally different attitudes and thoughts. christians normally take the latter while you like to imply they take the former. if you "threaten" me with punishment from a god i don't believe in, why the crap should i care?

I think the problem GBM really has with this is that it appears that "good" christians are "OK" with the fact their God sends people to Hell. Not just the people that reject Christ, but even those whom have never heard of him, those without the capacity to decide, and anyone else for that matter.

You may not "want" it to happen, but you still worship a God that does it. My conscience would not allow me to do so. To each his own though, I guess.

AUTaxMan
11-28-2011, 12:13 PM
even those whom have never heard of him, those without the capacity to decide

While this is a logical conclusion to draw from scripture, I don't believe the Bible specifically addresses this issue. I do know that God is just. Therefore, it would also be logical to conclude that He has exceptions for these scenarios.

mrveggieman
11-28-2011, 12:14 PM
+1

Also, mrv, Muslims and Christians worship the same God.

And Mr. Taxman you realize that most christians wholeheartedly disagree with what you just said and would consider that statement an act of blasphemy don't you?

mrveggieman
11-28-2011, 12:16 PM
Just out of curiosity, why do you believe that?

I'm glad that you asked me that and I am very happy to answer your question. I believe that humans since they are imperfect are subject to the bounds of 1 religion however God being all powerful, all perfect and all knowing is not subject to the bounds and restraints of 1 particular religion.

sanfran22
11-28-2011, 12:18 PM
While this is a logical conclusion to draw from scripture, I don't believe the Bible specifically addresses this issue. I do know that God is just. Therefore, it would also be logical to conclude that He has exceptions for these scenarios.

I think somewhere in Matthew it speaks that the Lord will not return until all have heard the Word...So sounds like everyone has a chance (except the very young that couldn't make a real decision IMO.)

habsheaven
11-28-2011, 12:19 PM
While this is a logical conclusion to draw from scripture, I don't believe the Bible specifically addresses this issue. I do know that God is just. Therefore, it would also be logical to conclude that He has exceptions for these scenarios.

So you are saying it is JUST for him to deny my entry based solely on my reluctance to believe in Him and make no considerations for how I lived my life and treated my fellow man.

That's not JUST. If you feel it is, then I can begin to understand where your opinions are coming from; and I do not want to go there. It sounds like an awful place to be.

AUTaxMan
11-28-2011, 12:21 PM
And Mr. Taxman you realize that most christians wholeheartedly disagree with what you just said and would consider that statement an act of blasphemy don't you?

They would be wrong if they knew anything about history. Allah and God are the same being, just viewed from different perspectives. Christians view God as a loving, just, and forgiving one with whom you have a personal relationship. Muslims view Allah as a vindictive one who brings wrath to those who don't follow the rules.

AUTaxMan
11-28-2011, 12:22 PM
I'm glad that you asked me that and I am very happy to answer your question. I believe that humans since they are imperfect are subject to the bounds of 1 religion however God being all powerful, all perfect and all knowing is not subject to the bounds and restraints of 1 particular religion.

Is there a scriptural reference you have to support that belief?

AUTaxMan
11-28-2011, 12:25 PM
So you are saying it is JUST for him to deny my entry based solely on my reluctance to believe in Him and make no considerations for how I lived my life and treated my fellow man.

That's not JUST. If you feel it is, then I can begin to understand where your opinions are coming from; and I do not want to go there. It sounds like an awful place to be.

Yes, because the Bible tells us that our salvation is based on our faith, not on our works. That was one of Jesus's primary teachings. My opinions are coming from the Bible.

habsheaven
11-28-2011, 12:27 PM
I think somewhere in Matthew it speaks that the Lord will not return until all have heard the Word...So sounds like everyone has a chance (except the very young that couldn't make a real decision IMO.)

Can you explain what this actually means? How does this affect the 45 year old African tribesman that dies with no knowledge of Christ?

sanfran22
11-28-2011, 12:29 PM
Can you explain what this actually means? How does this affect the 45 year old African tribesman that dies with no knowledge of Christ?

From what I read, there won't be any 45 yr old tribesman that has never heard the Word......

habsheaven
11-28-2011, 12:32 PM
Yes, because the Bible tells us that our salvation is based on our faith, not on our works. That was one of Jesus's primary teachings. My opinions are coming from the Bible.

I thought so. And you wonder why so many people reject religion. I am curious to see how all the "good" christians get along with the "born-again convict" christians when they get to heaven.

AUTaxMan
11-28-2011, 12:34 PM
I thought so. And you wonder why so many people reject religion. I am curious to see how all the "good" christians get along with the "born-again convict" christians when they get to heaven.

Maybe you'll get to find out one day.

habsheaven
11-28-2011, 12:35 PM
They would be wrong if they knew anything about history. Allah and God are the same being, just viewed from different perspectives. Christians view God as a loving, just, and forgiving one with whom you have a personal relationship. Muslims view Allah as a vindictive one who brings wrath to those who don't follow the rules.

Huh? Who's the vindictive one? I'm confused. According to what I was just told, I will be going to Hell for all eternity for not following the rules. How is that different from Allah?

sanfran22
11-28-2011, 12:36 PM
Maybe you'll get to find out one day.

One can hope.....They'll get along fine as we all understand that it's a free gift and we all are pretty worthless to begin with.....

mrveggieman
11-28-2011, 12:36 PM
Is there a scriptural reference you have to support that belief?

No scriptures from any holy books it is just the faith that I have in my heart.

habsheaven
11-28-2011, 12:37 PM
Maybe you'll get to find out one day.

Only if your God is TRULY just.

AUTaxMan
11-28-2011, 12:38 PM
Huh? Who's the vindictive one? I'm confused. According to what I was just told, I will be going to Hell for all eternity for not following the rules. How is that different from Allah?

Just one rule. Accept Jesus as your personal savior and you're good to go.

mrveggieman
11-28-2011, 12:40 PM
They would be wrong if they knew anything about history. Allah and God are the same being, just viewed from different perspectives. Christians view God as a loving, just, and forgiving one with whom you have a personal relationship. Muslims view Allah as a vindictive one who brings wrath to those who don't follow the rules.


I totally agree with you that Allah and God are one of the same. And he is also viewed from slightly different prespectives. However you lost me when you try to claim that christians view god as loving and muslims view god as hateful. Have you not been reading some of the biblical scripture that has been presented on this discussion by our good friend GBM?

AUTaxMan
11-28-2011, 12:42 PM
I totally agree with you that Allah and God are one of the same. And he is also viewed from slightly different prespectives. However you lost me when you try to claim that christians view god as loving and muslims view god as hateful. Have you not been reading some of the biblical scripture that has been presented on this discussion by our good friend GBM?

Yes, and when read as a whole, the message of Christ is one of God's grace and forgiveness.

mrveggieman
11-28-2011, 12:46 PM
Yes, and when read as a whole, the message of Christ is one of God's grace and forgiveness.


Yeah I don't have a problem with the bible teaching that and christians believing that but if you look at it from a neutral prespective without religious bias the koran says similiar things. Yes there may be references to God's/Allah's anger and rath in the koran but it can also be found in the bible.

AUTaxMan
11-28-2011, 12:57 PM
Yeah I don't have a problem with the bible teaching that and christians believing that but if you look at it from a neutral prespective without religious bias the koran says similiar things. Yes there may be references to God's/Allah's anger and rath in the koran but it can also be found in the bible.

Maybe in the old testament. Not in the new testament.

habsheaven
11-28-2011, 01:13 PM
Maybe in the old testament. Not in the new testament.

I'm going to wait for the "next" testament. God may have mellowed out a bit by then and got rid of that "banishment to hell" thingy.

mrveggieman
11-28-2011, 01:16 PM
Maybe in the old testament. Not in the new testament.


That dosent matter. Per Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book: Also check out Deuteronomy 12:32 (http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/12-32.htm) See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it. So you cannot be a christian and say mabey in the old testament but I go by the new testament. If you claim to be a christian you have to go by both the old and new testament equally without bias for or against one or the other.

AUTaxMan
11-28-2011, 01:59 PM
That dosent matter. Per Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that hears the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book: Also check out Deuteronomy 12:32 (http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/12-32.htm) See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it. So you cannot be a christian and say mabey in the old testament but I go by the new testament. If you claim to be a christian you have to go by both the old and new testament equally without bias for or against one or the other.

I am not saying to ignore the old testament. You have to read it in context of the Bible as a whole, however, instead of cherry-picking verses to fit your argument. The new testament brought with it a paradigm shift from the Jewish faith to the Christian faith and a new message that faith in God is what brought salvation, not merely strict adherence to mosaic law. Regardless of what the old testament says, the message of Christ is one of God's grace and forgiveness, not of wrath and damnation.

mrveggieman
11-28-2011, 02:29 PM
I am not saying to ignore the old testament. You have to read it in context of the Bible as a whole, however, instead of cherry-picking verses to fit your argument. The new testament brought with it a paradigm shift from the Jewish faith to the Christian faith and a new message that faith in God is what brought salvation, not merely strict adherence to mosaic law. Regardless of what the old testament says, the message of Christ is one of God's grace and forgiveness, not of wrath and damnation.


And I am cool with reading and accepting any holy book in its correct context and not cherry picking verses to fit your argument. However just like what I learned in algerba class in middle school what you do to one side you have to do to another. If you want the bible to be taught in its proper form and you dislike cherry picking of verses you would have to give the koran the same respect. No more highlighting verses of god/allah's anger and wrath from the koran if you don't agree with it being done with the bible.

gatorboymike
11-28-2011, 02:49 PM
Where do you keep getting this concept that I "want" you to go to hell? I find it very difficult to reconcile with my prior comment that "we want you to go to heaven."

I came to that conclusion via the chain of logic stated above, which you did not dispute. And I simply don't believe you when you say you want me to go to heaven.


Also, where did I say you're "rotten"? Like boba said, we're not in the business of judging men's hearts. That's God's. The Bible says that the wages of all sin is death (i.e., going to hell). It is not about being a good person or a bad person. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. This applies to all people, even Christians. However, there is hope for us all in that Christ paid the price for all of our sins through his crucifixion and resurrection. This means that we do not have to pay that price if we accept Jesus as our personal savior.

You didn't say that, the Bible does, and you believe the Bible, don't you? And yes, I've heard the sales pitch a million times. I'm not buying. Not to mention the fact that it contradicts itself. We've all sinned, so we deserve to go to hell, but it's not about being good or bad? Does not compute.


Your Cthulhu analogy is off the mark, unless you are offended by my wanting you to go to heaven. Would I be terribly offended if you were looking forward to my going to Cthulhu's version of heaven? No.

Yes, I would be offended by you wanting me to go to heaven, if I thought that was really what you wanted. So I could hang out with a bunch of Republicans in the sky forever? That's even more insulting than telling me I deserve to go to hell. And I'm not a big Lovecraft expert, but I don't think Cthulhu has a heaven.


Yes, and when read as a whole, the message of Christ is one of God's grace and forgiveness.

No it isn't.

"Sunshine! Rainbows! Lollipops! Puppydogs! (eternal torture in a fiery demon-filled pit if you don't worship me forever) Happiness! Kitty cats! Ice cream!"

gatorboymike
11-28-2011, 02:53 PM
Nowhere in any of that does it say that God says non-believers deserve to go to hell. Every verse you quoted speaks to the outcome of rejecting Jesus Christ as your savior.

Nice try at twisting what it says, but you entirely failed to prove your original #1 statement.

Wait wait wait...are you actually trying to make the case that there's a difference between "You WILL go to hell" and "You DESERVE to go to hell"? I'm sorry, let me go outside and laugh for 30 minutes.

...So, anyway. So you're saying God is going to send me to hell even though I don't deserve it? That would make God and Christianity even more evil than I thought they were.


You also didn't bother to include the other parts of those scriptures which expands on them. For example, Romans 6:23 says (your quoted part) "For the wages of sin is death" (and the part you conveniently left out) "but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Like I said, nice try, but still a failure to prove that God thinks non-believers deserve to go to hell.

Well those parts don't matter to me because I'm not buying your invisible car, Sunny Jim. You know, I think you're going to be arrested by the FBI for illegally downloading music and movies. You don't deserve it to be arrested by the FBI, but you're going to be arrested by the FBI anyway. And you can't get mad at me for saying that, because I didn't say you deserve it.

gatorboymike
11-28-2011, 02:57 PM
and this is where your argument falls apart. if christians are saying to you "i want you to burn in hell" they are 100% wrong and I would be the first to tell them that. If they are simply saying, according to my beliefs, if you don't accept jesus, then you will go to hell, they aren't out of bounds.

if you told me, i hope my god tortures you for eternity, you would be wrong. if you said "according to my beliefs, cthulhu is going to eat you and your loved ones" it would not bother me in the least. why should i care if something i don't believe in is a "threat" to me?

so, for clarification, if someone says "i hope you are tortured for eternity" they are wrong. if they say "according to my beliefs you will be" is not. those are two totally different attitudes and thoughts. christians normally take the latter while you like to imply they take the former. if you "threaten" me with punishment from a god i don't believe in, why the crap should i care?

I'm glad you said that, because maybe now you'll understand why your threats of going to Christian hell don't convince me to believe in Christianity. My problem is not feeling threatened (with the exception of the possibility that some Christian could decide he might as well kill me, because I'm going to hell anyway), but feeling insulted. Everything you do and everything you say is a calculated, conscious, vicious, vitriolic, monstrous insult against me and everyone I love and everything I value.

ensbergcollector
11-28-2011, 03:43 PM
I'm glad you said that, because maybe now you'll understand why your threats of going to Christian hell don't convince me to believe in Christianity. My problem is not feeling threatened (with the exception of the possibility that some Christian could decide he might as well kill me, because I'm going to hell anyway), but feeling insulted. Everything you do and everything you say is a calculated, conscious, vicious, vitriolic, monstrous insult against me and everyone I love and everything I value.

anyone on here can read your words and mine and see very clearly that you are the only one who is a calculated, conscious, vicious, vitriolic, monstrous insult against me and everyone I love and everything I value.

you systematically and openly attack christians and act as though you have the all powerful given right to. I have never once threatened you or attacked you with my words. Your only "proof" is when you try to tell christians what they believe. no one here has attacked you or said we wanted you to go to hell. you have often wished ill on christians and think you are justified because of some "evil" that has been done to you by christianity. you are every bad and evil thing that you attempt to attribute to christianity.

and as far as your violence comment, the only one here who has acted in a way that should cause someone else to feel threatened is you. i would be fearful of any christian who you came into personal contact with because according to your own words you are justified in all of your hate filled emotions. the worst violent offenders are the ones who think that they are right and just in their actions.

gatorboymike
11-28-2011, 04:15 PM
Do unto others, as you say. I have the right to defend myself from marauders. If someone came attacking you in real life, wouldn't you do the same?

andrewhoya
11-28-2011, 04:26 PM
You realize that goes directly against what the Bible teaches correct?

I'll ask this again. Do you believe everything the US Constitution says? If not, does that mean you are not an American?

andrewhoya
11-28-2011, 04:27 PM
GBM- I've always wondered. What do you say when somebody sneezes?

gatorboymike
11-28-2011, 04:53 PM
GBM- I've always wondered. What do you say when somebody sneezes?

Either nothing or "Are you OK?"

habsheaven
11-28-2011, 05:54 PM
GBM- I've always wondered. What do you say when somebody sneezes?

What do you say?

andrewhoya
11-28-2011, 06:36 PM
What do you say?

What most other people say, 'Bless you'.

sanfran22
11-28-2011, 06:44 PM
I'll ask this again. Do you believe everything the US Constitution says? If not, does that mean you are not an American?
I believe everything the Bible teaches.....it is the Word of God. period. To pick and choose your parts to believe in is not true Christianity....

habsheaven
11-28-2011, 06:45 PM
What most other people say, 'Bless you'.

I prefer gesundheit. For me, it's a habitual thing to say. I really do not feel the need to Bless every potential cold carrier.

habsheaven
11-28-2011, 06:48 PM
I believe everything the Bible teaches.....it is the Word of God. period. To pick and choose your parts to believe in is not true Christianity....

Why did God need man to write it all down? Was he incapable of doing it himself?

AUTaxMan
11-28-2011, 06:54 PM
Why did God need man to write it all down? Was he incapable of doing it himself?

Who said He needed him to?

andrewhoya
11-28-2011, 07:02 PM
I believe everything the Bible teaches.....it is the Word of God. period. To pick and choose your parts to believe in is not true Christianity....

Your opinion, but I wholeheartedly disagree.

gatorboymike
11-28-2011, 07:04 PM
And therein lies the problem.

AUTaxMan
11-28-2011, 07:13 PM
Your opinion, but I wholeheartedly disagree.

On what basis do you disagree? One what do you disagree?

jaybird_1981
11-28-2011, 07:14 PM
I believe everything the Bible teaches.....it is the Word of God. period. To pick and choose your parts to believe in is not true Christianity....


I too find it hard to reconcile.

theonedru
11-28-2011, 07:21 PM
Will you people quit bickering at each other and get back to the original topic, do we not read or know the rules. This thread is getting out of hand.

habsheaven
11-28-2011, 07:25 PM
Will you people quit bickering at each other and get back to the original topic, do we not read or know the rules. This thread is getting out of hand.

How is all this bickering NOT related to the thread? You have read the OP's first post haven't you?

jaybird_1981
11-28-2011, 07:27 PM
Will you people quit bickering at each other and get back to the original topic, do we not read or know the rules. This thread is getting out of hand.


Come on, you need to quit trying to bully people. This thread is about religion in general.

sanfran22
11-28-2011, 07:34 PM
Your opinion, but I wholeheartedly disagree.
Look up 2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:21. Says it all right there. I think I'd re-evaluate what you believe if you claim Christianity as your faith.

andrewhoya
11-28-2011, 07:48 PM
I believe everything the Bible teaches.....it is the Word of God. period. To pick and choose your parts to believe in is not true Christianity....

Then I guess I am not a 'true Christian' in your book.

andrewhoya
11-28-2011, 08:09 PM
Look up 2 Timothy 3:16 and 2 Peter 1:21. Says it all right there. I think I'd re-evaluate what you believe if you claim Christianity as your faith.

My questions about Christianity:

If everyone who is a Christian is Gods son, what happens when they switch religions? Are they just suddenly no longer the son of God?

If God is the one and only true God, then why would he create other religions with other Gods stating they THEY are the true Gods?

Why didn't Jesus appear sooner?

If God is the true God, why wasn't he the first God to appear?

If there truly was only one God, then why is the world full of hatred and violence? Wouldnt he want to see his children get along and love each other?

If everyone is TRULY God's child, then why would he send them to the fiery gates of Hell if they commit a sin?

'Love your enemies'- then why are people sent to Hell? Shouldnt EVERYONE be loved by God, and therefore sent to heaven?

With all of that being said, I do believe that there is more than one God in the world, and each of them 'create' people in the world. Atheists/agnostic people... I haven't really put much thought into that yet. But for right now, I'll say 'Biology'.

Just because I question the religion I am most attached to DOES NOT mean that I can not freely worship it. In my mind, the Christian God is the one who created me, and therefore is the one I should worship and pray to on a nightly basis. I also believe that God has already set a path for me, and everything in my life has already been planned out. There is nothing I can do to stray from that path of life.

gatorboymike
11-28-2011, 08:33 PM
You know, AH, I bet I could give you the standard Christian apologist answer to every one of those questions, having heard each of them so many times.

Hilfiger1975
11-28-2011, 08:39 PM
Do Christian's think God knows and sees all?

andrewhoya
11-28-2011, 08:39 PM
You know, AH, I bet I could give you the standard Christian apologist answer to every one of those questions, having heard each of them so many times.

All those are are excuses.

andrewhoya
11-28-2011, 08:40 PM
Do Christian's think God knows and sees all?

I do. Nothing is hidden from him basically because he laid out your path. (applies to Christians only)

gatorboymike
11-28-2011, 08:42 PM
All those are are excuses.

They sure are.

duwal
11-28-2011, 08:44 PM
Why did God need man to write it all down? Was he incapable of doing it himself?


because god's pen ran out of ink

andrewhoya
11-28-2011, 08:44 PM
They sure are.

I will say, it feels odd agreeing with you about Christianity.

Hilfiger1975
11-28-2011, 08:47 PM
I do. Nothing is hidden from him basically because he laid out your path. (applies to Christians only)
And what Bible do you use?

andrewhoya
11-28-2011, 08:47 PM
And what Bible do you use?

..the only Bible.

Hilfiger1975
11-28-2011, 08:48 PM
..the only Bible.
Which is? I need to know the version you use, so you can answer a question for me...

andrewhoya
11-28-2011, 08:49 PM
Which is?

There is only one Bible, right? Or am I mistaken?

andrewhoya
11-28-2011, 08:50 PM
Which is? I need to know the version you use, so you can answer a question for me...

The online version :ashamed0001: But I'll take a question.

gatorboymike
11-28-2011, 08:51 PM
I will say, it feels odd agreeing with you about Christianity.

Don't tell engsberg and duane.

CavFanatic31
11-28-2011, 08:52 PM
What most other people say, 'Bless you'.


I prefer gesundheit. For me, it's a habitual thing to say. I really do not feel the need to Bless every potential cold carrier.


The term "Bless you" has little to nothing to do with modern religion... It was a phrased used back in the day of witchcraft when they believed that sneezing was releasing a demon from you...LOL

habsheaven
11-28-2011, 08:52 PM
I do. Nothing is hidden from him basically because he laid out your path. (applies to Christians only)

Did he lay out the path for all the people that get viciously attacked, raped and killed too? Or how about the choir boys that get molested?

If He doesn't mind, I am going to get off the path and do a little four-wheeling through the bush. That seems a lot safer in my books.

habsheaven
11-28-2011, 08:54 PM
The term "Bless you" has little to nothing to do with modern religion... It was a phrased used back in the day of witchcraft when they believed that sneezing was releasing a demon from you...LOL

Thanks. I think I heard that before actually. Gesundheit actually means the same thing I believe.

andrewhoya
11-28-2011, 08:55 PM
The term "Bless you" has little to nothing to do with modern religion... It was a phrased used back in the day of witchcraft when they believed that sneezing was releasing a demon from you...LOL

But 'God Bless You' does :):

andrewhoya
11-28-2011, 08:56 PM
Did he lay out the path for all the people that get viciously attacked, raped and killed too? Or how about the choir boys that get molested?
If they are Christian, then yes. But that is also where the other Gods intervene.

If He doesn't mind, I am going to get off the path and do a little four-wheeling through the bush. That seems a lot safer in my books.
Do whatever you want, but IMO everything is already written. This conversation is in your 'book'.

CavFanatic31
11-28-2011, 08:56 PM
But 'God Bless You' does :):

False. Not after you say because someone sneezes.

andrewhoya
11-28-2011, 08:57 PM
False. Not after you say because someone sneezes.

I don't understand this.

CavFanatic31
11-28-2011, 09:00 PM
I don't understand this.

LOL I'm half asleep. If you say "God bless you" after someone sneezes, it still means the same thing as "bless you"... Wasn't this thread about Tim Tebow at one point?

habsheaven
11-28-2011, 09:01 PM
If they are Christian, then yes. But that is also where the other Gods intervene.

Do whatever you want, but IMO everything is already written. This conversation is in your 'book'.

Huh? What other Gods?

andrewhoya
11-28-2011, 09:02 PM
LOL I'm half asleep. If you say "God bless you" after someone sneezes, it still means the same thing as "bless you"... Wasn't this thread about Tim Tebow at one point?

Ah, gotcha. Yes, it means the same thing, but most who say 'God Bless you' are Christians, and as you stated above, sneezing was originally 'from witches', and therefore should be blessed by God to remove the witch-like 'disease'.

As for Tebow, I think it was more related to Christianity as a whole, and the involvement in everyday life.

andrewhoya
11-28-2011, 09:03 PM
Huh? What other Gods?

Allah, etc. And Zeus. (joking)

habsheaven
11-28-2011, 09:06 PM
Allah, etc. And Zeus. (joking)

I honestly do not know what to say to this. I'm going to bed. lol

andrewhoya
11-28-2011, 09:07 PM
I honestly do not know what to say to this. I'm going to bed. lol

You did see the word 'joking' in white font after Zeus, right?

Hilfiger1975
11-28-2011, 09:08 PM
Andrew, do me a favor and go to YOUR Bible and read Genesis Chapter 3 verse 8 and 9...after you read it copy and paste it on your next post.

Thanks,
Jason

gatorboymike
11-28-2011, 09:09 PM
When someone sneezes, Tim Tebow probably says "God bless you," hands them a stack of free Bibles, spends two hours praying, and organizes a week-long Bible study and charity drive for the Republican Party.

Hilfiger1975
11-28-2011, 09:11 PM
when someone sneezes, tim tebow probably says "god bless you," hands them a stack of free bibles, spends two hours praying, and organizes a week-long bible study and charity drive for the republican party.
lol...

andrewhoya
11-28-2011, 09:11 PM
Andrew, do me a favor and go to YOUR Bible and read Genesis Chapter 3 verse 8 and 9...after you read it copy and paste it on your next post.

Thanks,
Jason


Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, “Where are you?”
..

Hilfiger1975
11-28-2011, 09:14 PM
..
See your quote? Now read number 9. If God knows all and sees all why did he ask that?

Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, “Where are you?”

andrewhoya
11-28-2011, 09:19 PM
See your quote? Now read number 9. If God knows all and sees all why did he ask that?

I know what I want to say, it's just the matter of how to explain it.

IMO, it was all a set up. God knew exactly what would happen. He knew exactly where they were. Otherwise, why would he just go strutting through the garden and suddenly ask 'where are you' as soon as he arrived? Wouldn't he look around first if he didn't know?

If you were playing hide and seek, what would you do? Ask where everyone was or look around?

Hilfiger1975
11-28-2011, 09:21 PM
I know what I want to say, it's just the matter of how to explain it.

IMO, it was all a set up. God knew exactly what would happen. He knew exactly where they were. Otherwise, why would he just go strutting through the garden and suddenly ask 'where are you' as soon as he arrived? Wouldn't he look around first if he didn't know?

If you were playing hide and seek, what would you do? Ask where everyone was or look around?
Hide and Seek would be pointless with God since Christians think God knows all and sees all...it was just a question nothing more...

andrewhoya
11-28-2011, 09:24 PM
Hide and Seek would be pointless with God since Christians think God knows all and sees all...it was just a question nothing more...

Then why would he ask 'where are you'?

marvelousmarv
11-28-2011, 09:24 PM
this is the post where this deserves to be...



all i wanna say is that i like seeing his team win, because with him at the qb helm his team as a whole are the underdog...and i feel that as long as his teammates dont let the media intentionally assassinate what they have going on, by buying into the way the media is always going to spin these stories (until tebow goes down once and for all, because they truly hate something wholesome, that is unless its a pet saving a life) as its just tebow and christ...i think they can go far because of the no quit factor he does bring and inspire...tebow knows thats all he can do, the rest of his boys have to bring it and believe...and this i feel is why they are winning and i love that they are winning...because in todays professional sports you have to many quitters, and these boys are not quitting when they play...they are sticking together like the team is supposed to.

Hilfiger1975
11-28-2011, 09:25 PM
Then why would he ask 'where are you'?
Because they was hiding from him and he actually didn't know where they were...

andrewhoya
11-28-2011, 09:28 PM
Because they was hiding from him and he actually didn't know where they were...

But if God 'knows and sees everything'......

Nevermind.

Hilfiger1975
11-28-2011, 09:29 PM
But if God 'knows and sees everything'......

Nevermind.
You said that not me...:winking0071:

habsheaven
11-28-2011, 09:30 PM
You did see the word 'joking' in white font after Zeus, right?

No, I didn't see the word "joking" until it was just quoted.

andrewhoya
11-28-2011, 09:35 PM
No, I didn't see the word "joking" until it was just quoted.

Oh, okay. It was a joke. :): I'm not that dumb.

habsheaven
11-28-2011, 09:55 PM
Oh, okay. It was a joke. :): I'm not that dumb.

I didn't think so. That's why I did my best to refrain from saying anything mean-spirited.

CavFanatic31
11-28-2011, 10:00 PM
Hide and Seek would be pointless with God since Christians think God knows all and sees all...it was just a question nothing more...

You may not be looking deep enough... All stories of the Old Testament are used as a way of teaching, rather than to be taken literally. For example, there never really was an Adam and Eve, but rather Adam and Eve are used to represent God's people.

This game of "Hide and Seek" could just be used to represent Christians trying to find God's call and follow it. It could mean a number of things...

habsheaven
11-28-2011, 10:08 PM
You may not be looking deep enough... All stories of the Old Testament are used as a way of teaching, rather than to be taken literally. For example, there never really was an Adam and Eve, but rather Adam and Eve are used to represent God's people.

This game of "Hide and Seek" could just be used to represent Christians trying to find God's call and follow it. It could mean a number of things...

You keep making perfectly good sense and the rest of the christians on here are going to disown you. That's the "word of God" you are messing with. Tread carefully!

mrveggieman
11-29-2011, 09:19 AM
Let me hit you with this. People of all religions as well as atheists like to place limits on God. For example he only loves christians, jews, muslims, hispanics, blacks, whites, americans, pakastianians. Or they may say he is limited only to the bible, koran, book of morman, egyptian book of the dead. I find it really sad that everyone wants to claim his as all powerful and all knowing in one breath but turn around and put all these artificial limits on him. I will never restrict God to one book, one nationality or one religion. As far as God relating to Tebow, I think that God is blessing him not necessarliry because of his religious preference but because he appears to be a good overall guy. Remember Jerry Fallwell, Pat Robertson and Herman Cain are also christians but most normal christians distance themselves from them because they are full of hate. So let me pose this question to the group once again. If Tim Tebow was excatly who he is the only difference is that he is muslim instead of christian would he still be considered an all american hero? Why or why not?

jeeptrader
11-29-2011, 09:31 AM
Can't it just be Tebow helped win the game for his team? Tebow is the one playing the game, not the person who he has his beliefs for...I just don't understand that line of thinking.

I started reading this thread (only got to page 3 and stopped)and I don't understand why you keep posting that you don't get it...I think by the 2nd time you miss it...move along, instead of pounding the fact you are not on the same page as his thinking. Even though everything being said here is opinionated, there is really no need to drill the OP

ensbergcollector
11-29-2011, 10:32 AM
Let me hit you with this. People of all religions as well as atheists like to place limits on God. For example he only loves christians, jews, muslims, hispanics, blacks, whites, americans, pakastianians. Or they may say he is limited only to the bible, koran, book of morman, egyptian book of the dead. I find it really sad that everyone wants to claim his as all powerful and all knowing in one breath but turn around and put all these artificial limits on him. I will never restrict God to one book, one nationality or one religion. As far as God relating to Tebow, I think that God is blessing him not necessarliry because of his religious preference but because he appears to be a good overall guy. Remember Jerry Fallwell, Pat Robertson and Herman Cain are also christians but most normal christians distance themselves from them because they are full of hate. So let me pose this question to the group once again. If Tim Tebow was excatly who he is the only difference is that he is muslim instead of christian would he still be considered an all american hero? Why or why not?

i'll answer it, no he probably wouldn't. reason being is that the majority of this country identifies itself with christianity so naturally he has a large pool of support.
However on the flip side, i don't think he would get the hate from talking about his faith if he wasn't christian. Our country prides itself on acceptance of anything from a minority but feels totally comfortable hating on a majority because "they can take it." Just my opinion

mrveggieman
11-29-2011, 11:19 AM
i'll answer it, no he probably wouldn't. reason being is that the majority of this country identifies itself with christianity so naturally he has a large pool of support.
However on the flip side, i don't think he would get the hate from talking about his faith if he wasn't christian. Our country prides itself on acceptance of anything from a minority but feels totally comfortable hating on a majority because "they can take it." Just my opinion


Even though it's a sad commenty on our society I agree that tebow would not get the support from mainstreme society if he was muslim instead of christian because the majority of people in the usa are christian but I do think that he would get a similar if not more hate if he was as admant about islam instead of christanity. The reason why people view him wrongly but they do view him as a religious extremist because they are tired of all the fallwells, robertsons, and bin ladens of the world saying that you must bow down and accept what we believe in or you are the lowest form of scum of the earth and will be doomed to hell, or even worse we will pass judgement upon you ourselves and play god and kill you and lots of more innocent people. However it has nothing to do with the majority it is because religion as a whole his been hijacked by political extremists who are not doing it for the love of God and their fellow brothers and sisters but for their own sinister agenda.

pghin08
11-29-2011, 12:33 PM
Let me hit you with this. People of all religions as well as atheists like to place limits on God. For example he only loves christians, jews, muslims, hispanics, blacks, whites, americans, pakastianians. Or they may say he is limited only to the bible, koran, book of morman, egyptian book of the dead. I find it really sad that everyone wants to claim his as all powerful and all knowing in one breath but turn around and put all these artificial limits on him. I will never restrict God to one book, one nationality or one religion. As far as God relating to Tebow, I think that God is blessing him not necessarliry because of his religious preference but because he appears to be a good overall guy. Remember Jerry Fallwell, Pat Robertson and Herman Cain are also christians but most normal christians distance themselves from them because they are full of hate. So let me pose this question to the group once again. If Tim Tebow was excatly who he is the only difference is that he is muslim instead of christian would he still be considered an all american hero? Why or why not?

How exactly do atheists place limits on a deity that they don't believe exists?

bangsportscards
11-29-2011, 12:33 PM
Yeah I would hope one doesn't put their personal standing and relationship to Jesus in jeopardy by judging God based on what they perceive in others. Every born again Christian is capable of falling, sinning, and not living the right way of God.

Man I will say God is love, and just, merciful, and yes he is working all over in spite of religious preference and the likes.

In any sect, using Muslims merely for an example purpose, I wholeheartedly believe that the true nature of God as revealed in the bible is in some way able to be found in such beliefs by those able to see.

You don't have to be a Christian to be loved by God. You can make it out quite well being non Christian. You have free will to go full speed ahead doing whatever you're thinking is good. As a Christian I have experienced a totally new life, opened up to a Person whom has handled me gently, with love, and has guidelines to protect me. This is an awesome thing to behold and I need help from a reliable Source.

We all have struggles in some degree. Now at the same time we can be in denial about this to. Speaking in general here even if we are crazy about what we believe as truth, bear in heart that what you may understand at this second, could very well be brought to astonishing realization in a moment's notice. Limiting God is easy yes indeed.

I can go on for a bit but let's stop at this.


Praise the Lord

AUTaxMan
11-29-2011, 12:34 PM
i'll answer it, no he probably wouldn't. reason being is that the majority of this country identifies itself with christianity so naturally he has a large pool of support.
However on the flip side, i don't think he would get the hate from talking about his faith if he wasn't christian. Our country prides itself on acceptance of anything from a minority but feels totally comfortable hating on a majority because "they can take it." Just my opinion

He would be more celebrated and less criticized by the media and less loved by the fans.

AUTaxMan
11-29-2011, 12:35 PM
Let me hit you with this. People of all religions as well as atheists like to place limits on God. For example he only loves christians, jews, muslims, hispanics, blacks, whites, americans, pakastianians.

This is wrong. Christians believe that God loves everyone equally.

bangsportscards
11-29-2011, 01:05 PM
There is nothing extraordinary about a Christian other than they have transformed lives, can testify to how great God is, and are given the ability to realize where they came from. Other than that for the most part Christians are your every day person and are fortunate to bear the name. A Christian can be off track unfortunately and share God to others in a distorted manner. On the other hand Christians can be connected well to Jesus and be a bright experience for all to see.

Man may create knowingly or unknowingly all kinds of ways to view God and people are not seen by God any differently than Christians.

Brian

mrveggieman
11-29-2011, 01:49 PM
This is wrong. Christians believe that God loves everyone equally.


Some do however others feel that God's love dosent apply if your skin is darker than theirs, speak a different language, have most of the world's oil reserves or vote for Obama.

mrveggieman
11-29-2011, 01:52 PM
How exactly do atheists place limits on a deity that they don't believe exists?


Yeah I had to include atheists so they wouldn't be left out but technically speaking atheists place limits on God by denying his existance but hey that is the job of an atheist.

AUTaxMan
11-29-2011, 02:26 PM
Some do however others feel that God's love dosent apply if your skin is darker than theirs, speak a different language, have most of the world's oil reserves or vote for Obama.

That is not a Christian teaching, whether they believe it or not.

Star_Cards
11-29-2011, 02:36 PM
Yeah I had to include atheists so they wouldn't be left out but technically speaking atheists place limits on God by denying his existance but hey that is the job of an atheist.

I guess the lack of belief is a limit. what exactly is an atheists job?

Star_Cards
11-29-2011, 02:45 PM
Let me hit you with this. People of all religions as well as atheists like to place limits on God. For example he only loves christians, jews, muslims, hispanics, blacks, whites, americans, pakastianians. Or they may say he is limited only to the bible, koran, book of morman, egyptian book of the dead. I find it really sad that everyone wants to claim his as all powerful and all knowing in one breath but turn around and put all these artificial limits on him. I will never restrict God to one book, one nationality or one religion. As far as God relating to Tebow, I think that God is blessing him not necessarliry because of his religious preference but because he appears to be a good overall guy. Remember Jerry Fallwell, Pat Robertson and Herman Cain are also christians but most normal christians distance themselves from them because they are full of hate. So let me pose this question to the group once again. If Tim Tebow was excatly who he is the only difference is that he is muslim instead of christian would he still be considered an all american hero? Why or why not?

I don't think he would be the all american hero if he was muslim and especially if he was as outspoken about his religions as he is now. Although are you saying he looks just like he does now and is muslim or is he a muslim of middle eastern decent? I think the two different scenarios would get different reactions from the american public as a whole. This would also have a lot to do with if he presented his faith out there like he does now. I believe that any athlete that would praise another god other than the traditional christian god in a public forum would have some sort of backlash. There would surely be a decent amount of americans who would be vocal about their displeasure of an athlete speaking about their non christian beliefs.

sanfran22
11-29-2011, 02:49 PM
I don't think he would be the all american hero if he was muslim and especially if he was as outspoken about his religions as he is now. Although are you saying he looks just like he does now and is muslim or is he a muslim of middle eastern decent? I think the two different scenarios would get different reactions from the american public as a whole. This would also have a lot to do with if he presented his faith out there like he does now. I believe that any athlete that would praise another god other than the traditional christian god in a public forum would have some sort of backlash. There would surely be a decent amount of americans who would be vocal about their displeasure of an athlete speaking about their non christian beliefs.

Are they vocal about muhammed ali?

habsheaven
11-29-2011, 02:58 PM
Are they vocal about muhammed ali?

They were when Ali was relevant.

sanfran22
11-29-2011, 03:03 PM
They were when Ali was relevant.

Really? I haven't heard anything about it besides his conversion and some of the backlash to ridiculous comments he has made.

mrveggieman
11-29-2011, 03:39 PM
I don't think he would be the all american hero if he was muslim and especially if he was as outspoken about his religions as he is now. Although are you saying he looks just like he does now and is muslim or is he a muslim of middle eastern decent? I think the two different scenarios would get different reactions from the american public as a whole. This would also have a lot to do with if he presented his faith out there like he does now. I believe that any athlete that would praise another god other than the traditional christian god in a public forum would have some sort of backlash. There would surely be a decent amount of americans who would be vocal about their displeasure of an athlete speaking about their non christian beliefs.


Yeah I was going to mention his race but I didn't cause I thought that the discussion really would got out of hand but since you mentioned I not even going to ask if he was a star middle eastern muslim american athlete because he would have had a better chance as an openly gay athlete. America is not ready for an outspoken muslim middle eastern superstar athlete. Lets say this. Flash back around 25 years ago when tebows parents were doing missionary work. Say they encounter some muslims overseas convert to islam and raise tebow as a muslim. He works his way up the ranks as a star caucasian american muslim athlete. How would society react to him? Would they treat him better, less or about the same as they do now?

mrveggieman
11-29-2011, 03:46 PM
I guess the lack of belief is a limit. what exactly is an atheists job?


It's not a job per se. I see some atheist turn atheism into their own personal religion. They go on a crusade agaist religion. I'm not mad at them for doing that because with all the religious nuts out there like fallwell, bin laden, pat robertson, herman cain, not to mention so called men of god raping children, terrorists murdering innocent people in god/allah's name you wonder why more people don't abandon religion. However as for me I do believe in God. However if it didn't it wouldn't be a big deal to me. I don't believe in santa claus or the easter bunny so I'm not going to go on a personal crusade trying to disprove either one of them wrong just like I wouldn't go on a personal crusade to disprove god. I do agree with most atheists that despise all religious extremists. Ultimately each it's own and it makes for some interesting conversation over here.

gatorboymike
11-29-2011, 03:50 PM
This is wrong. Christians believe that God loves everyone equally.

No, that is obviously not true. Otherwise there would be no Christians running around talking about how God hates group X, God hates group Y. And if God loved non-Christians as much as Christians, the Bible wouldn't say he sends them to hell.

Most Christians believe God loves heterosexuals more than homosexuals.
Most Christians believe God loves men more than women.
Most Christians believe God loves conservatives more than liberals.
Most Christians believe God loves the rich more than the poor.
Most Christians believe God loves Americans more than any other nationality.
Most Christians believe God loves white people more than any other race.

And by some astronomical coincidence, you usually hear this from white American rich heterosexual conservative males.

Oh, and Veggie dude...it's Christians who are the ones placing arbitrary limits on God's power so as to suit their socio-political agenda. And it's atheists who respond, "If God is all-powerful like the Bible says he is, he shouldn't have that problem."

mrveggieman
11-29-2011, 03:58 PM
No, that is obviously not true. Otherwise there would be no Christians running around talking about how God hates group X, God hates group Y. And if God loved non-Christians as much as Christians, the Bible wouldn't say he sends them to hell.

Most Christians believe God loves heterosexuals more than homosexuals.
Most Christians believe God loves men more than women.
Most Christians believe God loves conservatives more than liberals.
Most Christians believe God loves the rich more than the poor.
Most Christians believe God loves Americans more than any other nationality.
Most Christians believe God loves white people more than any other race.

And by some astronomical coincidence, you usually hear this from white American rich heterosexual conservative males.

Oh, and Veggie dude...it's Christians who are the ones placing arbitrary limits on God's power so as to suit their socio-political agenda. And it's atheists who respond, "If God is all-powerful like the Bible says he is, he shouldn't have that problem."


Good points GMB. I'm going to give you some church for those.

Church!! :love0030:

mrveggieman
11-29-2011, 04:08 PM
Let me pose these two questions. The first is direction to christians. Say there was a guy who accepted jesus as his lord and savior and did all the right christian things for several years? However later on in life he starts learning about islam and after reading studying and praying he converts to islam. My question is assuming for the sake or argument christanity is the only correct religion and islam is false and they guy never technically denounced his christanity he only converted to islam never looking back on christanity would he still get into heaven? Why or why not? The next question is geared to atheists. I actually saw online that there are so called "churches" for atheists. The meet up once a week or so, hear a speaker, go out and attempt to recruit new members and go out and do different things in the community. My question is if you don't believe in anything that the church stands for why are you trying so hard to emulate the church? Also please do not be offended by any of my line of questioning I just had those thoughts and wanted to get everyone's spin on it. Thanks.

ensbergcollector
11-29-2011, 04:23 PM
No, that is obviously not true. Otherwise there would be no Christians running around talking about how God hates group X, God hates group Y. And if God loved non-Christians as much as Christians, the Bible wouldn't say he sends them to hell.

Most Christians believe God loves heterosexuals more than homosexuals.
Most Christians believe God loves men more than women.
Most Christians believe God loves conservatives more than liberals.
Most Christians believe God loves the rich more than the poor.
Most Christians believe God loves Americans more than any other nationality.
Most Christians believe God loves white people more than any other race.

And by some astronomical coincidence, you usually hear this from white American rich heterosexual conservative males.

Oh, and Veggie dude...it's Christians who are the ones placing arbitrary limits on God's power so as to suit their socio-political agenda. And it's atheists who respond, "If God is all-powerful like the Bible says he is, he shouldn't have that problem."

you do realize people would pay a whole lot more attention if you stopped flat out lying right?

Replace "most" with "some" and i will give you my full support. Your problem is that you take the extreme minority of christians and paint the picture that it represents all. I have worked as a minister for more than a decade and been around thousands of christians and I can count on 1 hand the ones you believe the things you posted above.


let me pose a hypothetical for you. Let's say a super wealthy man has a child. for some reason, at a relatively early age this child decides he hates and despises the father (maybe justified, maybe not, doesn't actually matter). For the next 40 years the father tries to reach out to the child through every avenue possible. Writes and calls himself, has his other children speak on his behalf, offers him money for college, house, etc. But for 40 years, the child acts with hatred and refuses to even acknowledge the father exists, telling anyone who will listen that the man isn't even his father. Now, when the father dies, is it evil of him to not include the child in his will? The child made it clear with every voluntary bone in his body that he wanted nothing from the father. So, if the father doesn't include the child in his will, is he evil?

(now, i hate hypotheticals because you can always just turn it into another one but please, if you are able, just answer the hypothetical with a yes or a no)

habsheaven
11-29-2011, 05:06 PM
you do realize people would pay a whole lot more attention if you stopped flat out lying right?

Replace "most" with "some" and i will give you my full support. Your problem is that you take the extreme minority of christians and paint the picture that it represents all. I have worked as a minister for more than a decade and been around thousands of christians and I can count on 1 hand the ones you believe the things you posted above.


let me pose a hypothetical for you. Let's say a super wealthy man has a child. for some reason, at a relatively early age this child decides he hates and despises the father (maybe justified, maybe not, doesn't actually matter). For the next 40 years the father tries to reach out to the child through every avenue possible. Writes and calls himself, has his other children speak on his behalf, offers him money for college, house, etc. But for 40 years, the child acts with hatred and refuses to even acknowledge the father exists, telling anyone who will listen that the man isn't even his father. Now, when the father dies, is it evil of him to not include the child in his will? The child made it clear with every voluntary bone in his body that he wanted nothing from the father. So, if the father doesn't include the child in his will, is he evil?

(now, i hate hypotheticals because you can always just turn it into another one but please, if you are able, just answer the hypothetical with a yes or a no)

No, he would not be evil, he would be a human being having a human reaction. Are we to assume this is an analogy for people who turn away from God and are therefore not allowed in Heaven?

If so, it's a very bad analogy. I would expect MORE out of my God than having Him act like a mere human. You would think/hope the Almighty was bigger than that.

ensbergcollector
11-29-2011, 05:10 PM
No, he would not be evil, he would be a human being having a human reaction. Are we to assume this is an analogy for people who turn away from God and are therefore not allowed in Heaven?

If so, it's a very bad analogy. I would expect MORE out of my God than having Him act like a mere human. You would think/hope the Almighty was bigger than that.

you are missing the point. people want to live their entire lives as though God does not exist and then expect to be rewarded for it. and if God isn't willing to reward them then we call him evil. If people spend their entire lives choosing to avoid God, then please tell me how the loving thing is to force them to spend eternity with him? Isn't the loving thing to give them what they clearly wanted which was not God? i for one do not take the burning lake of fire as being the actual description of hell. I think hell is a complete and total absence from God. If that is so, then isn't that giving people exactly what they have asked for?

bangsportscards
11-29-2011, 05:54 PM
If a man is a born again Christian and converts to Islam, yes he's still sealed by the Holy Spirit and going to Heaven. This would be a case of falling away or back sliding.

Once God has wooed you as an official child of God through salvation and regeneration by Jesus Christ, you are forever safe to be part of Heaven.

Now the real challenge comes in being a born again Christian and experiencing that heaven reality right here on earth which is offered lovingly by the Father.

And yes hell is simply adbsence of God's presence. The lake of fire is not to be taken literally. God is always available, the thing is we are not always open to Him. Therefore you live in hell on earth to the degree that you are void of living God's truth.

Brian

Hilfiger1975
11-29-2011, 05:58 PM
If a man is a born again Christian and converts to Islam, yes he's still sealed by the Holy Spirit and going to Heaven. This would be a case of falling away or back sliding.

Once God has wooed you as an official child of God through salvation and regeneration by Jesus Christ, you are forever safe to be part of Heaven.

Now the real challenge comes in being a born again Christian and experiencing that heaven reality right here on earth which is offered lovingly by the Father.

And yes hell is simply adbsence of God's presence. The lake of fire is not to be taken literally. God is always available, the thing is we are not always open to Him. Therefore you live in hell on earth to the degree that you are void of living God's truth.

Brian
Is that the "official" terminology? :winking0071:

gatorboymike
11-29-2011, 05:59 PM
Replace "most" with "some" and i will give you my full support. Your problem is that you take the extreme minority of christians and paint the picture that it represents all. I have worked as a minister for more than a decade and been around thousands of christians and I can count on 1 hand the ones you believe the things you posted above.

And I can count on one hand the ones who don't.


let me pose a hypothetical for you. Let's say a super wealthy man has a child. for some reason, at a relatively early age this child decides he hates and despises the father (maybe justified, maybe not, doesn't actually matter). For the next 40 years the father tries to reach out to the child through every avenue possible. Writes and calls himself, has his other children speak on his behalf, offers him money for college, house, etc. But for 40 years, the child acts with hatred and refuses to even acknowledge the father exists, telling anyone who will listen that the man isn't even his father. Now, when the father dies, is it evil of him to not include the child in his will? The child made it clear with every voluntary bone in his body that he wanted nothing from the father. So, if the father doesn't include the child in his will, is he evil?

Horrible analogy. For it to be accurate, the father would have to never show himself to the child, never contact the child directly, make only the most indirect and pathetic attempts to reach the child, as in, paying a bunch of homeless drunks and psychopathic mass-murderers to approach the child and say "Your dad loves you, and he told me to tell you to give me all your money and obey my every command." Then when the child does not do as the homeless drunks and psychopathic mass-murderers wish, the father calls up his good ol' boy friends in the government to have his son kidnapped by the FBI and sent to some off-the-record prison in Siberia where he will be tortured for the rest of his life.

Actually, that's not a good analogy either, because neither the father nor the Siberian prison guards would be able to torture the child FOREVER. And the child knows he must have a father because he was born. So instead of a father, let's say it's an old friend of his father's who owns a big company, curiously, nobody can ever find any trace of the existence of.

And here you come, telling me I'm such a terrible person because I want the homeless drunks and psycho killers to leave me alone, stop begging for money, stop telling me what to do, and stop threatening me.


people want to live their entire lives as though God does not exist and then expect to be rewarded for it. and if God isn't willing to reward them then we call him evil.

Now who's the liar? By all the available evidence, God does not exist. Or at least, there's no good reasons to think he does. We expect to be rewarded? Give me a freakin' break. I will call your God evil the same way I would call Darth Vader or Lord Voldemort evil.


If people spend their entire lives choosing to avoid God, then please tell me how the loving thing is to force them to spend eternity with him? Isn't the loving thing to give them what they clearly wanted which was not God?

You can't avoid what isn't there. With your previous analogy, you make it sound like God is some parent who's so, so sad that you haven't called him once since you moved out. Get real. And your own scripture says God's love is infinite, yet you want us to sympathize with this character for subjecting people to an infinite punishment? Are you devoid of all humanity, or have you just never thought this concept through in your entire life? Basically you're defending a mugger who holds a gun to my head and says he won't shoot me if I give him all my money. "You don't want to give him all your money? Well then clearly you want to be shot. Go ahead and shoot him, it must be what he wants."


i for one do not take the burning lake of fire as being the actual description of hell. I think hell is a complete and total absence from God. If that is so, then isn't that giving people exactly what they have asked for?

Then you're not following what scripture says. It says burning in a lake of fire. Do you care that you're not following it? If you're just going to posit that according to your personal theology, if I don't believe in your God, then I'll just stop existing altogether, fine. That's what I think will happen to me anyway. But that's not what the Bible says.

habsheaven
11-29-2011, 06:01 PM
you are missing the point. people want to live their entire lives as though God does not exist and then expect to be rewarded for it. and if God isn't willing to reward them then we call him evil. If people spend their entire lives choosing to avoid God, then please tell me how the loving thing is to force them to spend eternity with him? Isn't the loving thing to give them what they clearly wanted which was not God? i for one do not take the burning lake of fire as being the actual description of hell. I think hell is a complete and total absence from God. If that is so, then isn't that giving people exactly what they have asked for?

Nice try, but I didn't miss your point. You are feebly trying to deflect.

Nobody is expecting to be rewarded. Once the non-believer dies and it is PROVEN to them that God exists I am sure they would have a change of heart and not want to be excluded at that point. What you propose is the act of a SPITEFUL child saying I told you so. Again, if you believe that that is the way a loving God should act, more power to you.

andrewhoya
11-29-2011, 06:02 PM
Replace "most" with "some" and i will give you my full support. Your problem is that you take the extreme minority of christians and paint the picture that it represents all. I have worked as a minister for more than a decade and been around thousands of christians and I can count on 1 hand the ones you believe the things you posted above.





And I can count on one hand the ones who don't.





I think the word should be 'many'. Not most, but more than 'some'.

habsheaven
11-29-2011, 06:04 PM
I think the word should be 'many'. Not most, but more than 'some.

I agree.

gatorboymike
11-29-2011, 06:09 PM
All I can do is reflect on my own personal history. The vast majority of all Christians I've ever personally met or heard of are those whom I described.

Hilfiger1975
11-29-2011, 06:11 PM
All I can do is reflect on my own personal history. The vast majority of all Christians I've ever personally met or heard of are those whom I described.
I understand where you are coming from...

AUTaxMan
11-29-2011, 07:11 PM
Some do however others feel that God's love dosent apply if your skin is darker than theirs, speak a different language, have most of the world's oil reserves or vote for Obama.

Who believes that? Nobody I've ever met.

AUTaxMan
11-29-2011, 07:12 PM
All I can do is reflect on my own personal history. The vast majority of all Christians I've ever personally met or heard of are those whom I described.

Where have you been meeting Christians?

AUTaxMan
11-29-2011, 07:14 PM
I think the word should be 'many'. Not most, but more than 'some'.

No, it should be some or even few. Having spent my entire life in the church, I have not run into a single person who has shared any of those beliefs.

gatorboymike
11-29-2011, 07:16 PM
Where have you been meeting Christians?

Florida, and the internet.

andrewhoya
11-29-2011, 07:20 PM
No, it should be some or even few. Having spent my entire life in the church, I have not run into a single person who has shared any of those beliefs.

You've gotta look further then. While it is not a big percentage of all Christian's, is is definitely not 'few'.

AUTaxMan
11-29-2011, 07:21 PM
Florida, and the internet.

What places have you been meeting Christians? How many have you met?

Hilfiger1975
11-29-2011, 07:26 PM
What places have you been meeting Christians? How many have you met?
You make it sounds like they are a rare bird or something. Aren't Christians common?

ensbergcollector
11-29-2011, 07:48 PM
Nice try, but I didn't miss your point. You are feebly trying to deflect.

Nobody is expecting to be rewarded. Once the non-believer dies and it is PROVEN to them that God exists I am sure they would have a change of heart and not want to be excluded at that point. What you propose is the act of a SPITEFUL child saying I told you so. Again, if you believe that that is the way a loving God should act, more power to you.

i am not deflecting anything. people choose their entire lives what they prefer. why would god force someone to spend eternity with someone they wanted nothing to do with. why is that love.

also, i would love to live the life you propose. "Hey, i can live however I want, do whatever I want, deny God both in action and word, oftentimes full on insulting the very idea of God, but by golly, when I die, if he is really loving he better give me what I deserve."

ensbergcollector
11-29-2011, 07:55 PM
Florida, and the internet.

now, i admit to never being to florida so i can't speak to those. however, you and i have both been on this forum for years now. you have attributed many of these thoughts to me even though i have never spoke them and in fact have spoken out against them. you often say things like "you may not say it but you believe it."

so my question is, are there people really saying these things or are they all people who you have attributed these things to them despite them never saying them.

What's crazy is that i am as against christians who act the way you describe as you are, though for different reasons. I think the christians who act like that are a horrible representation of the God I serve and only serve to drive people away (case in point, yourself). So, for what's it's worth, i wouldn't stand by christians who act the way that you have observed.

sanfran22
11-29-2011, 09:04 PM
If a man is a born again Christian and converts to Islam, yes he's still sealed by the Holy Spirit and going to Heaven. This would be a case of falling away or back sliding.

Once God has wooed you as an official child of God through salvation and regeneration by Jesus Christ, you are forever safe to be part of Heaven.

Now the real challenge comes in being a born again Christian and experiencing that heaven reality right here on earth which is offered lovingly by the Father.

And yes hell is simply adbsence of God's presence. The lake of fire is not to be taken literally. God is always available, the thing is we are not always open to Him. Therefore you live in hell on earth to the degree that you are void of living God's truth.

Brian
My question would be was he really a Christian? What did he consider to be a Christian meant? It would be real difficult to be a true Christian and then convert to a false religion like Islam. I could see where they were decieved by other sects that call themselves Christian but are not following scripture i.e. the westboro church. But to switch total religions wouldn't make much sense. It means they probably didn't truely believe in the first place IMO.You would wonder if that person truly accepted Christ or just calls themselves a Christian like so many do.

habsheaven
11-29-2011, 09:22 PM
i am not deflecting anything. people choose their entire lives what they prefer. why would god force someone to spend eternity with someone they wanted nothing to do with. why is that love.

also, i would love to live the life you propose. "Hey, i can live however I want, do whatever I want, deny God both in action and word, oftentimes full on insulting the very idea of God, but by golly, when I die, if he is really loving he better give me what I deserve."

Okay, let me get this straight. Hell is not hell per say, it's just an afterlife without God? Much like real life right now. Okay, I can die with that. :):

Hilfiger1975
11-29-2011, 09:24 PM
Okay, let me get this straight. Hell is not hell per say, it's just an afterlife without God? Much like real life right now. Okay, I can die with that. :):
I've been married. Hell, don't scare me one bit...:winking0071:

habsheaven
11-29-2011, 09:28 PM
I've been married. Hell, don't scare me one bit...:winking0071:

Lol, me neither. If it's just more of the same. I am good to go. :):

Hilfiger1975
11-29-2011, 09:29 PM
Lol, me neither. If it's just more of the same. I am good to go. :):
Not too mention grilling 24/7; sounds more like Heaven to me...:winking0071:

Now if i went to "Hell" and my ex-wife is cooking THEN i'm scared...

habsheaven
11-29-2011, 09:31 PM
Not too mention grilling 24/7; sounds more like Heaven to me...:winking0071:

Don't forget to pack your sunblock.:smokin:

Hilfiger1975
11-29-2011, 09:31 PM
Don't forget to pack your sunblock.:smokin:
:):

gatorboymike
11-29-2011, 10:33 PM
What places have you been meeting Christians? How many have you met?

All over the place. Hundreds, thousands...it's not like I've been keeping a spreadsheet.

gatorboymike
11-29-2011, 10:42 PM
now, i admit to never being to florida so i can't speak to those. however, you and i have both been on this forum for years now. you have attributed many of these thoughts to me even though i have never spoke them and in fact have spoken out against them. you often say things like "you may not say it but you believe it."

so my question is, are there people really saying these things or are they all people who you have attributed these things to them despite them never saying them.

Well, if you all had an intimate, inexplicable, personal connection to an objective source of absolute truth and absolute goodness like you all claim you do, one would assume it would tell you all the same thing. Why does Bob say the Christian god told him to do X and not Y, but Steve say the Christian god told him to do Y and not X? I get a lot of Christians yelling at me about how "Not all Christians are the same!" Well, if you were all getting your wisdom and decency from the same god, shouldn't you all be the same? Shouldn't every Christian be, if not perfect, then as asymptotically close to perfect as it is humanly possible to be? Shouldn't every Christian always agree with every other Christian about everything 100% of the time? No, wait, forget I asked, I can already hear you getting ready to copy and paste something about "true Christians," so make like Nirvana and Nevermind.

To answer your question, it's most often the case that one Christian will make some grand proclamation that offends my sensibilities and the rest of the group this person is part of won't say anything, as if the one loudmouth is speaking for all of them. So either they all agree with the loudmouth when he says God hates homosexuals, or God personally chose George W. Bush as the earthly implement of his will, or God doesn't care if you're a cannibalistic, child-raping serial killer who listens to Justin Bieber as long as you tell God what a totally awesome and radical dude he is 6 seconds before you die, or they'll all be watching and laughing as I get dunked head-first in a lake of lava while little red guys stab me in the rear end with pitchforks...or they're just too cowardly to challenge one another when they don't agree.


What's crazy is that i am as against christians who act the way you describe as you are, though for different reasons. I think the christians who act like that are a horrible representation of the God I serve and only serve to drive people away (case in point, yourself). So, for what's it's worth, i wouldn't stand by christians who act the way that you have observed.

Oh are you now...how splendidly delightful. I do so hope you let them know that in no uncertain terms when you see them, so as not to be like the people I described above.

ensbergcollector
11-29-2011, 10:57 PM
Oh are you now...how splendidly delightful. I do so hope you let them know that in no uncertain terms when you see them, so as not to be like the people I described above.

while i can always count on your for sarcasm, as a matter of fact i do. i have had that conversation multiple times. if someone poorly represented you and those you cared about, i assume you would do the same.

gatorboymike
11-29-2011, 11:03 PM
while i can always count on your for sarcasm, as a matter of fact i do. i have had that conversation multiple times. if someone poorly represented you and those you cared about, i assume you would do the same.

Well, seeing as how I can't follow you around on a daily basis I'll just have to take your word for it. But there are lots of people poorly representing you, me bucko.

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 09:23 AM
Who believes that? Nobody I've ever met.


So you have never listened to or read anything that fallwell, pat robertson or herman cain said. That's real hard to believe coming from you mr taxman. :rolleyes:

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 09:29 AM
My question would be was he really a Christian? What did he consider to be a Christian meant? It would be real difficult to be a true Christian and then convert to a false religion like Islam. I could see where they were decieved by other sects that call themselves Christian but are not following scripture i.e. the westboro church. But to switch total religions wouldn't make much sense. It means they probably didn't truely believe in the first place IMO.You would wonder if that person truly accepted Christ or just calls themselves a Christian like so many do.


And who made YOU the resident expert on religion? Who gave YOU the authority to determine which religion is true and which is false? GBM can quote scripture just as quick as anyone in P&R. Why should your determination on what a false religion be taken over his or anyone elses. If someone calls your religion false what can you do to counter them besides quote scripture?

ensbergcollector
11-30-2011, 09:37 AM
And who made YOU the resident expert on religion? Who gave YOU the authority to determine which religion is true and which is false? GBM can quote scripture just as quick as anyone in P&R. Why should your determination on what a false religion be taken over his or anyone elses. If someone calls your religion false what can you do to counter them besides quote scripture?

And what gives YOU the right to ask a question and then lash out at the one who answers it? Everyone here believes different things. No one has slammed gbm and asked who gives him a right to believe what he does, so have some respect and dont treat others that way.

Star_Cards
11-30-2011, 09:41 AM
What places have you been meeting Christians? How many have you met?

most people in america are christian. I'm sure he runs into them everyday. I personally know hundreds and know a lot of their beliefs.

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 10:21 AM
And what gives YOU the right to ask a question and then lash out at the one who answers it? Everyone here believes different things. No one has slammed gbm and asked who gives him a right to believe what he does, so have some respect and dont treat others that way.


It wasn't intended as a lash out but since sanfran wanted to claim that islam is a false religion I just wanted to see his credentials. There are a lot of religions that I don't follow but I'm not going to go and say they are false I just say I am not a follower of them and leave it as that. Has sanfran or anyone on this forum for that matter studied every religion in the world and has enough experties to determine which religion is true and which is false? We had a big debate on her about a month or two about which religion is true and which is false. I and a host of others asked someone to provide hard evidence why their chosen religion is the true religion. All they did was provide scriputre. ANYONE can chose the verses in their favorite holy books where it claims that it is the one and only true religion and that all others are dammed to hell. Why should anyone believe sanfran's or anyone else's interpretation that the bible is the one and true holy book when christians as a whole cant even agree on certian issues. Listen I go to a christian church and have a bishop that I respect very much but I am not going to call anyone elses beliefs or walk with God false when they are trying to do the same thing that you or I are trying to do. There is only 1 religious expert that I know of that has the authority to call a religion false and I can assure you that he does not post on SCF.

ensbergcollector
11-30-2011, 10:35 AM
It wasn't intended as a lash out but since sanfran wanted to claim that islam is a false religion I just wanted to see his credentials. There are a lot of religions that I don't follow but I'm not going to go and say they are false I just say I am not a follower of them and leave it as that. Has sanfran or anyone on this forum for that matter studied every religion in the world and has enough experties to determine which religion is true and which is false? We had a big debate on her about a month or two about which religion is true and which is false. I and a host of others asked someone to provide hard evidence why their chosen religion is the true religion. All they did was provide scriputre. ANYONE can chose the verses in their favorite holy books where it claims that it is the one and only true religion and that all others are dammed to hell. Why should anyone believe sanfran's or anyone else's interpretation that the bible is the one and true holy book when christians as a whole cant even agree on certian issues. Listen I go to a christian church and have a bishop that I respect very much but I am not going to call anyone elses beliefs or walk with God false when they are trying to do the same thing that you or I are trying to do. There is only 1 religious expert that I know of that has the authority to call a religion false and I can assure you that he does not post on SCF.

so do me a favor and tell me why there is religion at all? Since according to you, none of us can know what is true and what isn't. We all have to decide for ourselves. If no one is allowed to share their opinion unless they are God, then we might as well stop having any discussion. Guess what, islam doesn't buy the whole "jesus as savior" thing. should muslims not be allowed to post here because they can't prove that?
you are being antagonistic and you know it. Everything everyone is saying on here is their own opinion. You just felt like lashing out this morning for some reason.

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 11:08 AM
so do me a favor and tell me why there is religion at all? Since according to you, none of us can know what is true and what isn't. We all have to decide for ourselves. If no one is allowed to share their opinion unless they are God, then we might as well stop having any discussion. Guess what, islam doesn't buy the whole "jesus as savior" thing. should muslims not be allowed to post here because they can't prove that?
you are being antagonistic and you know it. Everything everyone is saying on here is their own opinion. You just felt like lashing out this morning for some reason.


There you go with your assumptions. I'm actually having great day today so no reason to lash out. Besides sanfran22 is my buddy :kiss: I always get a good laugh at his expense. Also I never said that you or anyone else for that matter don't have the right to share your opinions on here. Feel free to say whatever you like about politics, religion on anything else that comes to mind. However if you put your views in a public forum we do have the right to demand proof of statements that your want to put out as the ultimate truth. Is that too much to ask for?

ensbergcollector
11-30-2011, 11:12 AM
There you go with your assumptions. I'm actually having great day today so no reason to lash out. Besides sanfran22 is my buddy :kiss: I always get a good laugh at his expense. Also I never said that you or anyone else for that matter don't have the right to share your opinions on here. Feel free to say whatever you like about politics, religion on anything else that comes to mind. However if you put your views in a public forum we do have the right to demand proof of statements that your want to put out as the ultimate truth. Is that too much to ask for?

we have established numerous times that religion is an issue of faith and not proof. You know that, so to continue to ask for proof, or to say "And who made YOU the resident expert on religion?" is highly antagonistic and purposefully lashing out. If every time someone shared an opinion on religion the response was "prove it" then there would be no discussion.
You can't treat religious discussions the same way you treat political. you can't just ask for "a source" especially since you won't allow scripture as a source (which on a side note is pretty funny since it is more reliable then have the sources that get used here). All religion discussions are based on our opinions and you know it. So, yes, to demand proof, is too much to ask.

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 11:33 AM
we have established numerous times that religion is an issue of faith and not proof. You know that, so to continue to ask for proof, or to say "And who made YOU the resident expert on religion?" is highly antagonistic and purposefully lashing out. If every time someone shared an opinion on religion the response was "prove it" then there would be no discussion.
You can't treat religious discussions the same way you treat political. you can't just ask for "a source" especially since you won't allow scripture as a source (which on a side note is pretty funny since it is more reliable then have the sources that get used here). All religion discussions are based on our opinions and you know it. So, yes, to demand proof, is too much to ask.


I am glad that we can both agree that religion is a matter of faith. So it would be fruitless to say my religion is better than yours or vice verca because there is no way to prove it you just have to believe it in your heart. However when one person calls out another religion that he is not an expert on as false you would have to agree that he looses credibility on all matters religious because he is speaking of what he dosen't know which by the way goes on with a lot of people on P&R. To try to attract converts to your chosen religion by insulting another one as false is highly inneffective and not to mention just plain childish and immuture.

sanfran22
11-30-2011, 11:38 AM
I am glad that we can both agree that religion is a matter of faith. So it would be fruitless to say my religion is better than yours or vice verca because there is no way to prove it you just have to believe it in your heart. However when one person calls out another religion that he is not an expert on as false you would have to agree that he looses credibility on all matters religious because he is speaking of what he dosen't know which by the way goes on with a lot of people on P&R. To try to attract converts to your chosen religion by insulting another one as false is highly inneffective and not to mention just plain childish and immuture.

If someone really is a Christian, they would realize there is only one way. No other way but through Christs gift. Period.
We have faith that the Bible is the infallible Word of God. There is no other.
What loses credibility is those that claim there are many ways to heaven. They apparently do not study the Word or have been mislead somewhere. It's right there, clear as day. But some apparently refuse to pay attention.

AUTaxMan
11-30-2011, 11:38 AM
I am glad that we can both agree that religion is a matter of faith. So it would be fruitless to say my religion is better than yours or vice verca because there is no way to prove it you just have to believe it in your heart. However when one person calls out another religion that he is not an expert on as false you would have to agree that he looses credibility on all matters religious because he is speaking of what he dosen't know which by the way goes on with a lot of people on P&R. To try to attract converts to your chosen religion by insulting another one as false is highly inneffective and not to mention just plain childish and immuture.

No. By definition, Christianity is an exclusive religion in the sense that it only allows for one way to eternal life. There is no other way to spin it, and we have every right to believe there is only one true religion as you have to believe that there is not.

ensbergcollector
11-30-2011, 11:41 AM
I am glad that we can both agree that religion is a matter of faith. So it would be fruitless to say my religion is better than yours or vice verca because there is no way to prove it you just have to believe it in your heart. However when one person calls out another religion that he is not an expert on as false you would have to agree that he looses credibility on all matters religious because he is speaking of what he dosen't know which by the way goes on with a lot of people on P&R. To try to attract converts to your chosen religion by insulting another one as false is highly inneffective and not to mention just plain childish and immuture.

if you are unwilling to say you have enough faith in your chosen religion to believe it is true, then that is your right. But to say someone who has enough faith in their religion to believe it is true loses credibility is borderline idiotic. The very religion you claim to belong to claims to be the only true religion. So what, anyone who believes more strongly then you is an idiot but you are not? It is ok for people to share opinions about faith as long as their opinion is some wishy-washy we are all equal kind of faith? But as soon as someone actually takes their religion and their faith for what it says we are going to disregard them? Nope, don't think so. You are allowed your opinions and so are everyone else.
According to you, no one but god knows the truth. And according to you, anyone who doesnt know the truth only loses credibility if they try and make religious claims. Well, this is the politics and RELIGION forum. the only way religion is discussed is with opinions so unfortunately you will just have to deal with people sharing their "unsubstantiated opinions"

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 11:54 AM
if you are unwilling to say you have enough faith in your chosen religion to believe it is true, then that is your right. But to say someone who has enough faith in their religion to believe it is true loses credibility is borderline idiotic. The very religion you claim to belong to claims to be the only true religion. So what, anyone who believes more strongly then you is an idiot but you are not? It is ok for people to share opinions about faith as long as their opinion is some wishy-washy we are all equal kind of faith? But as soon as someone actually takes their religion and their faith for what it says we are going to disregard them? Nope, don't think so. You are allowed your opinions and so are everyone else.
According to you, no one but god knows the truth. And according to you, anyone who doesnt know the truth only loses credibility if they try and make religious claims. Well, this is the politics and RELIGION forum. the only way religion is discussed is with opinions so unfortunately you will just have to deal with people sharing their "unsubstantiated opinions"

Again everyone is welcome here and I am glad there are various opinions. Again sanfran is welcome to state that islam or any other religion is false. I support and defend his right to say so. But I do have the right to voice my opinion to respond back and demand credentials and or proof when he makes outlandish and unprovable statements about religion. I understand that most religious people have their chosen religion and believe that theirs is the only way to heaven and I respect everyone for believing as they wish. However you can't get mad if you are so adament about your beliefs and make strong statments about faith when someone asks you for proof. That's how things work.

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 12:02 PM
Arguing about opinions, FTW?

ensbergcollector
11-30-2011, 12:03 PM
Again everyone is welcome here and I am glad there are various opinions. Again sanfran is welcome to state that islam or any other religion is false. I support and defend his right to say so. But I do have the right to voice my opinion to respond back and demand credentials and or proof when he makes outlandish and unprovable statements about religion. I understand that most religious people have their chosen religion and believe that theirs is the only way to heaven and I respect everyone for believing as they wish. However you can't get mad if you are so adament about your beliefs and make strong statments about faith when someone asks you for proof. That's how things work.

no, that is not how things work and you know it. What credentials does someone have to have to believe something on faith? Since when do we have to have a doctorate degree or be God himself to have an opinion? And no, you don't respect everyone's opinion. If you agree with it you give them a nice little "Church" but if you don't you demand proof. That isn't respect and you know it.

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 12:03 PM
Arguing about opinions, FTW?
/not really

sanfran22
11-30-2011, 12:15 PM
/not really

lol, I've never seen anyone quote themselves....:cheer2:

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 12:18 PM
lol, I've never seen anyone quote themselves....:cheer2:
I do it often...i take meds, but they don't work...:winking0071:

sanfran22
11-30-2011, 12:19 PM
I do it often...i take meds, but they don't work...:winking0071:

Too funny...:party0048:

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 12:20 PM
Too funny...:party0048:
:winking0071:

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 12:22 PM
no, that is not how things work and you know it. What credentials does someone have to have to believe something on faith? Since when do we have to have a doctorate degree or be God himself to have an opinion? And no, you don't respect everyone's opinion. If you agree with it you give them a nice little "Church" but if you don't you demand proof. That isn't respect and you know it.


Isn't that how the P&R forum works. Poster A says 2*2=4 and Poster B agrees. He may even give them a +1 or Church! if he really likes his opinion. Or am I not allowed to give a church if I don't totally agree with our in house religious experts? And yes anyone is free to speak their mind politically and religiously but they should be prepared to back up anything they say if not they should be ok with futher scrutinty for not being able to support what they say. You don't need any credentials to have faith in God as you see fit but if you are going to make a bold statement proclaiming someone elses religion as false why can't I or anyone else ask you to prove it. That is just like saying that it is a false statement that michael jordan played for the chicago bulls. You would say where did i get that from. I would say I can't prove but it is false and you have to take my word for it.

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 12:25 PM
Isn't that how the P&R forum works. Poster A says 2*2=4 and Poster B agrees. He may even give them a +1 or Church! if he really likes his opinion. Or am I not allowed to give a church if I don't totally agree with our in house religious experts? And yes anyone is free to speak their mind politically and religiously but they should be prepared to back up anything they say if not they should be ok with futher scrutinty for not being able to support what they say. You don't need any credentials to have faith in God as you see fit but if you are going to make a bold statement proclaiming someone elses religion as false why can't I or anyone else ask you to prove it. That is just like saying that it is a false statement that michael jordan played for the chicago bulls. You would say where did i get that from. I would say I can't prove but it is false and you have to take my word for it.
:winking0071:

AUTaxMan
11-30-2011, 12:31 PM
Isn't that how the P&R forum works. Poster A says 2*2=4 and Poster B agrees. He may even give them a +1 or Church! if he really likes his opinion. Or am I not allowed to give a church if I don't totally agree with our in house religious experts? And yes anyone is free to speak their mind politically and religiously but they should be prepared to back up anything they say if not they should be ok with futher scrutinty for not being able to support what they say. You don't need any credentials to have faith in God as you see fit but if you are going to make a bold statement proclaiming someone elses religion as false why can't I or anyone else ask you to prove it. That is just like saying that it is a false statement that michael jordan played for the chicago bulls. You would say where did i get that from. I would say I can't prove but it is false and you have to take my word for it.

Logic is escaping you. If you are a Christian and believe in the absolute truth that the only way to God is through Jesus, then you believe that all other religions that do not teach this are false religions. If you believe in absolute truth, you speak in absolutes. Thus, as a Christian, I can justifiably say that Islam and all other religions that believe there is a way to salvation other than through Jesus is a false religion.

sanfran22
11-30-2011, 12:36 PM
Logic is escaping you. If you are a Christian and believe in the absolute truth that the only way to God is through Jesus, then you believe that all other religions that do not teach this are false religions. If you believe in absolute truth, you speak in absolutes. Thus, as a Christian, I can justifiably say that Islam and all other religions that believe there is a way to salvation other than through Jesus is a false religion.

That, I believe, deserves a *gasp* CHURCH!!!!!:cheer2::sign0020:

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 12:38 PM
That, I believe, deserves a *gasp* CHURCH!!!!!:cheer2::sign0020:

Veggie is probably giggling now...

sanfran22
11-30-2011, 12:39 PM
Veggie is probably giggling now...

yeah, I kinda "borrowed" his saying (even though I don't really know what it means).:party0048:

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 12:43 PM
yeah, I kinda "borrowed" his saying (even though I don't really know what it means).:party0048:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=church

Can i get a witness?!?!

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 12:50 PM
Logic is escaping you. If you are a Christian and believe in the absolute truth that the only way to God is through Jesus, then you believe that all other religions that do not teach this are false religions. If you believe in absolute truth, you speak in absolutes. Thus, as a Christian, I can justifiably say that Islam and all other religions that believe there is a way to salvation other than through Jesus is a false religion.


Again it is your right that I completely support and defend to say that. I have no problem with you feeling that way. However you made a bold statement that you cannot prove so what is the point? How is that any different from saying that my next door neighboor got abducted by aliens and that is the absolute truth even though I can't prove it. Speaking on terms of pure logic both of them are just as illogical.

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 12:52 PM
Veggie is probably giggling now...



:sign0020:

sanfran22
11-30-2011, 02:01 PM
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=church

Can i get a witness?!?!

lol, house of ill repute...I guess I'll skip that term from now on for chance it is taken the wrong way...:sign0020:

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 02:02 PM
lol, house of ill repute...I guess I'll skip that term from now on for chance it is taken the wrong way...:sign0020:
Did you scroll down and see #2?

sanfran22
11-30-2011, 02:04 PM
Did you scroll down and see #2?
yeah, that's what I was saying. Talk about double meaning lol.....

AUTaxMan
11-30-2011, 02:04 PM
Again it is your right that I completely support and defend to say that. I have no problem with you feeling that way. However you made a bold statement that you cannot prove so what is the point? How is that any different from saying that my next door neighboor got abducted by aliens and that is the absolute truth even though I can't prove it. Speaking on terms of pure logic both of them are just as illogical.

The difference is that I am not asking you for proof of the aliens because your faith is personal to you, and I don't feel the need for you to justify it to me.

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 02:05 PM
yeah, that's what I was saying. Talk about double meaning lol.....
Gotcha...:winking0071:

ensbergcollector
11-30-2011, 02:15 PM
Again it is your right that I completely support and defend to say that. I have no problem with you feeling that way. However you made a bold statement that you cannot prove so what is the point? How is that any different from saying that my next door neighboor got abducted by aliens and that is the absolute truth even though I can't prove it. Speaking on terms of pure logic both of them are just as illogical.

if you say "i think vanilla ice cream is better than chocolate" and I say "oh yeah, prove it. What makes you an expert on ice cream. What are your credentials to make that kind of statement?" I'm sorry, that is combative, purposefully antagonistic and a few other things. And the worst part is, you know it, you know exactly what you are trying to do and that makes it even worse.

sanfran22
11-30-2011, 02:20 PM
Truth of the matter is, we are all gonna find out sometime soon. I'll take my chances with my position.

habsheaven
11-30-2011, 02:30 PM
Truth of the matter is, we are all gonna find out sometime soon. I'll take my chances with my position.

Or we are not.:rolleyes:

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 02:59 PM
Did you scroll down and see #2?

We are not allowed to talk about the solicial and political ramafications of #2 on here are we? :sign0020:

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 03:03 PM
We are not allowed to talk about the solicial and political ramafications of #2 on here are we? :sign0020:
Assumptions and opinions only, please...:winking0071:

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 03:12 PM
The difference is that I am not asking you for proof of the aliens because your faith is personal to you, and I don't feel the need for you to justify it to me.


You are right you are never obligated to answer any question on here that makes you uncomfortable. However we still do have the right to ask them if you make such claims. It's just like saying that I got the best looking wife in the world. And you ask for a picture. I say no. It is my right not to show pictures of my wife on the web and it will be your right to think that I am full of it.

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 03:14 PM
You are right you are never obligated to answer any question on here that makes you uncomfortable. However we still do have the right to ask them if you make such claims. It's just like saying that I got the best looking wife in the world. And you ask for a picture. I say no. It is my right not to show pictures of my wife on the web and it will be your right to think that I am full of it.
Got a picture of her? :winking0071:

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 03:18 PM
if you say "i think vanilla ice cream is better than chocolate" and I say "oh yeah, prove it. What makes you an expert on ice cream. What are your credentials to make that kind of statement?" I'm sorry, that is combative, purposefully antagonistic and a few other things. And the worst part is, you know it, you know exactly what you are trying to do and that makes it even worse.


Im on here just like the rest of us to debate the issues. No matter what argument you, I or any or the rest of us have there should be something to back up are claims. Until the religious expert that we all love comes out and says which religion(s) are true which are false, some will continue to say that theirs are superior (which is their right), others members will continue to ask for proof which they either cannot or will not provide and we will continue to remain skeptical of their claims. You can't get mad at that either because it is what it is.

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 03:21 PM
Got a picture of her? :winking0071:


Haha. I do but I don't think that she wants me to put her on blast like that.

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 03:22 PM
Truth of the matter is, we are all gonna find out sometime soon. I'll take my chances with my position.

I can respect you on that 100.

AUTaxMan
11-30-2011, 03:24 PM
Im on here just like the rest of us to debate the issues. No matter what argument you, I or any or the rest of us have there should be something to back up are claims. Until the religious expert that we all love comes out and says which religion(s) are true which are false, some will continue to say that theirs are superior (which is their right), others members will continue to ask for proof which they either cannot or will not provide and we will continue to remain skeptical of their claims. You can't get mad at that either because it is what it is.

If you acknowledge that what you are asking cannot be proven, then why are you asking the question?

ensbergcollector
11-30-2011, 03:24 PM
Im on here just like the rest of us to debate the issues. No matter what argument you, I or any or the rest of us have there should be something to back up are claims. Until the religious expert that we all love comes out and says which religion(s) are true which are false, some will continue to say that theirs are superior (which is their right), others members will continue to ask for proof which they either cannot or will not provide and we will continue to remain skeptical of their claims. You can't get mad at that either because it is what it is.

so, you will continue to ask for proof of someone's opinion? the christians on here have readily said there is no "proof" of their claims. to continue to ask for it is antagonistic at best. You have every reason to be skeptical but not to keep asking for proof or to ask what qualifies someone to have a strong opinion.

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 03:27 PM
If you acknowledge that what you are asking cannot be proven, then why are you asking the question?

Because I'm trying to show how outlandish that claim is. Yes you can keep saying it over and over and yes I as well as others are going to keep demanding proof.

AUTaxMan
11-30-2011, 03:31 PM
Because I'm trying to show how outlandish that claim is. Yes you can keep saying it over and over and yes I as well as others are going to keep demanding proof.

Why does the lack of proof make the claim outlandish?

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 03:34 PM
so, you will continue to ask for proof of someone's opinion? the christians on here have readily said there is no "proof" of their claims. to continue to ask for it is antagonistic at best. You have every reason to be skeptical but not to keep asking for proof or to ask what qualifies someone to have a strong opinion.


Anything claimed on P&R will be asked to be proven. I can come out and say GWB is lowest form of scum of the earth and the worst president of all time. First thing you will do is ask for proof. I can show links. I can also say that 7 day adventists because of their diet, lifestyle, and religion live longer lives. Again you will ask for proof and I will provide if requested. The claims that I made are relatively minor compared to your claims. Again I cant get mad at you for believing and speaking what you believe but that is not enough for P&R and everytime you, myself, GBM, sanfran22, duane or any of the rest of us make an outlandish claim we will be demanded to provide proof. If no proof is provided the argument can only be taken with a grain of salt.

ensbergcollector
11-30-2011, 03:37 PM
Anything claimed on P&R will be asked to be proven. I can come out and say GWB is lowest form of scum of the earth and the worst president of all time. First thing you will do is ask for proof. I can show links. I can also say that 7 day adventists because of their diet, lifestyle, and religion live longer lives. Again you will ask for proof and I will provide if requested. The claims that I made are relatively minor compared to your claims. Again I cant get mad at you for believing and speaking what you believe but that is not enough for P&R and everytime you, myself, GBM, sanfran22, duane or any of the rest of us make an outlandish claim we will be demanded to provide proof. If no proof is provided the argument can only be taken with a grain of salt.

wow, glad to know you are the high authority of P&R. If you ask for proof, and we respond that there is no proof, what reason is there to keep asking if not to be antagonistic?

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 03:38 PM
Why does the lack of proof make the claim outlandish?


Your buddy sanfran22 came out and called islam a false religion. He has nothing to prove it false only his personal opinions.

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 03:40 PM
wow, glad to know you are the high authority of P&R. If you ask for proof, and we respond that there is no proof, what reason is there to keep asking if not to be antagonistic?


No I'm just a regular guy like any of the rest of us. If someone can make outlandish claims about religion that can't be proven why cant we make outlandish claims about any other topic on here?

ensbergcollector
11-30-2011, 03:45 PM
No I'm just a regular guy like any of the rest of us. If someone can make outlandish claims about religion that can't be proven why cant we make outlandish claims about any other topic on here?

easy...religion openly states it is a faith based opinion and not a fact based opinion.

the rest of the things in P&R can be validated by evidence so evidence is asked for.

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 03:47 PM
easy...religion openly states it is a faith based opinion and not a fact based opinion.

the rest of the things in P&R can be validated by evidence so evidence is asked for.
Really? Why is it that all i ever see is 75% of assumptions and opinions then? Oops, and stereotyping...

ensbergcollector
11-30-2011, 03:49 PM
Really? Why is it that all i ever see is 75% of assumptions and opinions then? Oops, and stereotyping...

and why is it that no one ever asks for people to prove their opinions except with religion?

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 03:49 PM
Why does the lack of proof make the claim outlandish?


As far as that particular claim you just answered your own question. :winking0071:

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 03:50 PM
and why is it that no one ever asks for people to prove their opinions except with religion?


Are you serious? You have been on this forum longer than I and people make outlandish claims on everything under the sun and the first thing the readers do is ask for is proof.

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 03:51 PM
and why is it that no one ever asks for people to prove their opinions except with religion?
It's your lie tell it however you want...:winking0071:

habsheaven
11-30-2011, 03:55 PM
FWIW, when I hear someone claim anything about religion I tend to accept that it is just their opinion. I do not want proof or expect to see proof. I just want to wrap my head around why they have such opinions. I truly want to see where they are coming from. As for claiming other religions are false; I know why they feel that way and it seems pretty straight forward.

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 03:59 PM
FWIW, when I hear someone claim anything about religion I tend to accept that it is just their opinion. I do not want proof or expect to see proof. I just want to wrap my head around why they have such opinions. I truly want to see where they are coming from. As for claiming other religions are false; I know why they feel that way and it seems pretty straight forward.
Nobody in this WORLD should be disrespecting another religion, because they are all "faith."

P.S. Tebow is great because all he do is win...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNC8xRo9vXY&feature=youtu.be

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 04:01 PM
Nobody in this WORLD should be disrespecting another religion, because they are all "faith."




Church!! :love0030:

andrewhoya
11-30-2011, 04:27 PM
Can somebody summarize what happened from 9AM-4PM? I don't really want to read 75 posts. I already tried :rolleyes:

AUTaxMan
11-30-2011, 04:29 PM
easy...religion openly states it is a faith based opinion and not a fact based opinion.

the rest of the things in P&R can be validated by evidence so evidence is asked for.

Au contraire...liberalism is much more faith based than fact based.

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 04:30 PM
Can somebody summarize what happened from 9AM-4PM? I don't really want to read 75 posts. I already tried :rolleyes:
Opinions was given then somebody argued about his opinion then a few people made assumptions from those opinions...your welcome...:winking0071:

andrewhoya
11-30-2011, 04:31 PM
Opinions was given then somebody argued about his opinion then a few people made assumptions from those opinions...your welcome...:winking0071:

Ah, so I didn't miss much :winking0071:

AUTaxMan
11-30-2011, 04:33 PM
then mrv starting asking for proof to substantiate opinions.

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 04:34 PM
Ah, so I didn't miss much :winking0071:


Just a typical day in to world of P&R. It sure makes the work day go by faster. :winking0071:

andrewhoya
11-30-2011, 04:38 PM
Just a typical day in to world of P&R. It sure makes the work day go by faster. :winking0071:

If only I could log on during my Calc and History classes :sign0202:

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 04:40 PM
then mrv starting asking for proof to substantiate opinions.


Prior to that mrtaxman's lil buddy sanfran22 once again made an outlandish claim that he couldn't prove.

andrewhoya
11-30-2011, 04:42 PM
I feel like the debate could start again right before my eyes :pop2::pop2:

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 04:46 PM
If only I could log on during my Calc and History classes :sign0202:

History was one of my favorite classes in high school. That's why I'm always on P&R. :winking0071:

AUTaxMan
11-30-2011, 04:48 PM
History was one of my favorite classes in high school. That's why I'm always on P&R. :winking0071:

Prove that history was one of your favorite classes.

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 04:55 PM
Prove that history was one of your favorite classes.
I C Wut U Did Thar! :winking0071:

He could always say, "Prove to me i need to prove it to you!"

ensbergcollector
11-30-2011, 04:59 PM
Prior to that mrtaxman's lil buddy sanfran22 once again made an outlandish claim that he couldn't prove.

i love that you claim to be a christian but when someone posts something that is a basic tenant of christianity you call it outlandish.

gatorboymike
11-30-2011, 05:54 PM
I do not respect any religion. I respect your right to have your religious beliefs, but I don't respect your religious beliefs themselves. And for anyone to demand that their religious beliefs be respected is ludicrous, dishonest, manipulative and insulting, and will be met with deliberate and well-deserved disrespect. What would you think of me if I told you that I define my self-worth and my understanding of the world by the idea that Jupiter is home to a colony of flying pink chihuahuas? And then I demanded that you tell me that I deserve praise and commendation for my belief in flying pink chihuahuas, that my belief in flying pink chihuahuas is totally awesome and worthy of admiration?

Theists can't have their cake and eat it too. They want to be thought of as above criticism because their beliefs are opinions, and opinions can't be true or false. But at the same time, they insist their beliefs are facts, and that their beliefs and opinions represent literal, historic, real-world factual events that actually happened or are happening or will happen. No. You don't get it both ways.

If you want to reduce Christians vs. Muslims vs. atheists vs. whatever to the level of chocolate vs. vanilla, fine. But understand that once you do, you lose the right to demand that everyone fall in line with you, because opinions are subjective and the only person who values your opinion is you. And you lose any ground upon which to argue why anyone else should join your religion, other than that you like it. People who like chocolate ice cream aren't out there proselytizing the Cocoa Testament to the Vanillist heathens, telling them that unless they give their money and obedience to Pastor Hershey of the First Church of Chocula, they'll be burned alive in a lake of hot fudge forever and ever after they die.

But on the other hand, if you want to insist that your beliefs are objectively, literally true, then you lose the right to sidestep the burden of proof. "We don't offer proof! We're above proof! You can't ask us to substantiate our outrageous, Dr. Seuss-esque claims! You just have to take our word for it, and if you don't, we'll hurt you." Sorry, Charlie. You make factual claims, you provide real evidence. Unless you really can't tell the difference between "I like X" and "X is true."

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 06:02 PM
I do not respect any religion. I respect your right to have your religious beliefs, but I don't respect your religious beliefs themselves. And for anyone to demand that their religious beliefs be respected is ludicrous, dishonest, manipulative and insulting, and will be met with deliberate and well-deserved disrespect. What would you think of me if I told you that I define my self-worth and my understanding of the world by the idea that Jupiter is home to a colony of flying pink chihuahuas? And then I demanded that you tell me that I deserve praise and commendation for my belief in flying pink chihuahuas, that my belief in flying pink chihuahuas is totally awesome and worthy of admiration?

Theists can't have their cake and eat it too. They want to be thought of as above criticism because their beliefs are opinions, and opinions can't be true or false. But at the same time, they insist their beliefs are facts, and that their beliefs and opinions represent literal, historic, real-world factual events that actually happened or are happening or will happen. No. You don't get it both ways.

If you want to reduce Christians vs. Muslims vs. atheists vs. whatever to the level of chocolate vs. vanilla, fine. But understand that once you do, you lose the right to demand that everyone fall in line with you, because opinions are subjective and the only person who values your opinion is you. And you lose any ground upon which to argue why anyone else should join your religion, other than that you like it. People who like chocolate ice cream aren't out there proselytizing the Cocoa Testament to the Vanillist heathens, telling them that unless they give their money and obedience to Pastor Hershey of the First Church of Chocula, they'll be burned alive in a lake of hot fudge forever and ever after they die.

But on the other hand, if you want to insist that your beliefs are objectively, literally true, then you lose the right to sidestep the burden of proof. "We don't offer proof! We're above proof! You can't ask us to substantiate our outrageous, Dr. Seuss-esque claims! You just have to take our word for it, and if you don't, we'll hurt you." Sorry, Charlie. You make factual claims, you provide real evidence. Unless you really can't tell the difference between "I like X" and "X is true."
Do you jump from buildings with a parachute, too? Because you take everything to the extreme...read your first paragraph to yourself...

sanfran22
11-30-2011, 06:15 PM
Your buddy sanfran22 came out and called islam a false religion. He has nothing to prove it false only his personal opinions.
Actually, if you believe in the Bible (which I think you said you do), then it's pretty evident that Islam, or any other religion that does not teach salvation through Christ, is a false religion.

gatorboymike
11-30-2011, 06:33 PM
Do you jump from buildings with a parachute, too? Because you take everything to the extreme...read your first paragraph to yourself...

http://renn-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/target.jpg

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 06:37 PM
http://renn-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/target.jpg
Cute picture, did you color it, too?

ensbergcollector
11-30-2011, 06:45 PM
I do not respect any religion. I respect your right to have your religious beliefs, but I don't respect your religious beliefs themselves. And for anyone to demand that their religious beliefs be respected is ludicrous, dishonest, manipulative and insulting, and will be met with deliberate and well-deserved disrespect. What would you think of me if I told you that I define my self-worth and my understanding of the world by the idea that Jupiter is home to a colony of flying pink chihuahuas? And then I demanded that you tell me that I deserve praise and commendation for my belief in flying pink chihuahuas, that my belief in flying pink chihuahuas is totally awesome and worthy of admiration?

Theists can't have their cake and eat it too. They want to be thought of as above criticism because their beliefs are opinions, and opinions can't be true or false. But at the same time, they insist their beliefs are facts, and that their beliefs and opinions represent literal, historic, real-world factual events that actually happened or are happening or will happen. No. You don't get it both ways.

If you want to reduce Christians vs. Muslims vs. atheists vs. whatever to the level of chocolate vs. vanilla, fine. But understand that once you do, you lose the right to demand that everyone fall in line with you, because opinions are subjective and the only person who values your opinion is you. And you lose any ground upon which to argue why anyone else should join your religion, other than that you like it. People who like chocolate ice cream aren't out there proselytizing the Cocoa Testament to the Vanillist heathens, telling them that unless they give their money and obedience to Pastor Hershey of the First Church of Chocula, they'll be burned alive in a lake of hot fudge forever and ever after they die.

But on the other hand, if you want to insist that your beliefs are objectively, literally true, then you lose the right to sidestep the burden of proof. "We don't offer proof! We're above proof! You can't ask us to substantiate our outrageous, Dr. Seuss-esque claims! You just have to take our word for it, and if you don't, we'll hurt you." Sorry, Charlie. You make factual claims, you provide real evidence. Unless you really can't tell the difference between "I like X" and "X is true."

i am starting to think you are the best example of your own faith quote posted in the other thread.

gatorboymike
11-30-2011, 06:56 PM
i am starting to think you are the best example of your own faith quote posted in the other thread.

Can you prove that?:winking0071:

spuds1961
11-30-2011, 10:50 PM
And to think this all started for someone praising Tebow and his religious beliefs,Thanks Brian.I find it entertaining and there is no proof,but I would love to see gbm's flying pink chihauhas on jupiter,now to me that would be entertaining.

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 08:12 AM
Prove that history was one of your favorite classes.

Because I was able to copy off of your homework. :winking0071:

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 08:16 AM
Actually, if you believe in the Bible (which I think you said you do), then it's pretty evident that Islam, or any other religion that does not teach salvation through Christ, is a false religion.


I've read the bible several times and no where is islam mentioned. The bible speaks on it's own merits. It is not concerned about islam and neither should you.

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 08:18 AM
Let me call out all of my self appointed religious experts. Prove to me that the atheist god the flying spaghetti monster is not real.

Hilfiger1975
12-01-2011, 08:38 AM
Let me call out all of my self appointed religious experts. Prove to me that the atheist god the flying spaghetti monster is not real.
You ate my ex-wifes food too, aye?

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 10:07 AM
Let me call out all of my self appointed religious experts. Prove to me that the atheist god the flying spaghetti monster is not real.

And that is the difference in us and you. If someone told me they believed that I would "why do you believe that" not "oh yeah, prove it to me. What makes you an expert on atheist gods? What are your credentials?" I never expect proof of an opinion.

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 10:25 AM
And that is the difference in us and you. If someone told me they believed that I would "why do you believe that" not "oh yeah, prove it to me. What makes you an expert on atheist gods? What are your credentials?" I never expect proof of an opinion.


I never claimed to be an expert on any gods. I am only trying to get closer to my own. Whatever someone calls as their god is between them and their god.

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 10:29 AM
I never claimed to be an expert on any gods. I am only trying to get closer to my own. Whatever someone calls as their god is between them and their god.

huh? what does that have to do with anything? i never sad you claimed to be an expert. you asked a question, i answered, and now you are going off in some other direction. you are the one who continually asks for proof, credentials, and what makes someone an expert.

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 10:33 AM
I've read the bible several times and no where is islam mentioned. The bible speaks on it's own merits. It is not concerned about islam and neither should you.

the bible does speak on it's own merits. and the bible that you claim to follow as a christian says jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through him. Now, you obviously don't believe that but how can you not see where someone would take it at face value?

sanfran22
12-01-2011, 10:41 AM
I've read the bible several times and no where is islam mentioned. The bible speaks on it's own merits. It is not concerned about islam and neither should you.

The Bible speaks many times about false religions/gods. It also speaks of the one and only true way. For someone who claims to have read the Bible several times, I would figure you'd see that.

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 10:51 AM
huh? what does that have to do with anything? i never sad you claimed to be an expert. you asked a question, i answered, and now you are going off in some other direction. you are the one who continually asks for proof, credentials, and what makes someone an expert.


You said what makes me an expert I responded I never claimed to be one. As far as making mere mortal a religious expert that is impossible because no man walking the face of the earth in todays times knows everything about every religion that ever existed. You are a chirstian minister and you would have to admit that you do not know everything there is to know about christanity. The point is focus on getting right by God, be a good steward of what he has entrusted to you be an example of what a christian should stand for and if someone else choses to follow another religion pray for them and let go and let god. Trust me more people will be attracted to christanity that way. Remember the old saying. You can get more flies by honey than by that other stuff.

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 10:57 AM
the bible does speak on it's own merits. and the bible that you claim to follow as a christian says jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through him. Now, you obviously don't believe that but how can you not see where someone would take it at face value?


That's why I read the bible so I can get closer to God. And yes I do understand that part but do you honestly think that insulting another man's religion is really going to attract more followers to christanity? A perfect example was several years ago there was a prominent black preacher who burned all pictures of white jesus in his church. I asked my old sunday school teacher his spin on it. He just shook his head and said how many souls are going to be saved by that. So let me ask you how many souls are you going to be saved by hurling insults at someone's else's faith?

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 10:57 AM
You said what makes me an expert I responded I never claimed to be one. As far as making mere mortal a religious expert that is impossible because no man walking the face of the earth in todays times knows everything about every religion that ever existed. You are a chirstian minister and you would have to admit that you do not know everything there is to know about christanity. The point is focus on getting right by God, be a good steward of what he has entrusted to you be an example of what a christian should stand for and if someone else choses to follow another religion pray for them and let go and let god. Trust me more people will be attracted to christanity that way. Remember the old saying. You can get more flies by honey than by that other stuff.

i think you must have misread because i never asked what makes you an expert. in fact i was quoting the fact that you ask everyone else that question.
Also, if someone chooses another religion of course i would pray for them and not bully or attack them. But for you to claim christianity but to call basic christian tenants outlandish is ridiculous.

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 11:00 AM
That's why I read the bible so I can get closer to God. And yes I do understand that part but do you honestly think that insulting another man's religion is really going to attract more followers to christanity? A perfect example was several years ago there was a prominent black preacher who burned all pictures of white jesus in his church. I asked my old sunday school teacher his spin on it. He just shook his head and said how many souls are going to be saved by that. So let me ask you how many souls are you going to be saved by hurling insults at someone's else's faith?

problem is you are not just avoiding hurling insults at people who believe different. you are hurling insults at anyone who believes christianity.

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 11:15 AM
problem is you are not just avoiding hurling insults at people who believe different. you are hurling insults at anyone who believes christianity.


If a muslim/jew/etc came on this website and said the same things about christanity that some of ya'll like to say about islam he/she would get the same treatment from me. Mabey muslims/jews etc have better things to do with their time than to hurl religious insults on SCF. I'm just saying.

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 11:19 AM
i don't see you attacking any of the people who attack christianity. People knock christianity as false and fake all day around here and I don't see you asking them "what makes them a religion expert" or "what are your credentials." Someone says islam is a false religion and it starts a multi-day hundreds of posts thread because you lashed out at him for saying it.
Where are you when people say all religions are false? Oh yeah, you are respecting their opinion. Where are you when people are knocking christians? Oh yeah, you are respecting their opinions. But if a christian says something, you feel the need to jump in. Doesn't make sense to me but whatever.

Star_Cards
12-01-2011, 11:21 AM
Let me call out all of my self appointed religious experts. Prove to me that the atheist god the flying spaghetti monster is not real.

umm... it's made of lasagna, not spaghetti.

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 11:24 AM
i don't see you attacking any of the people who attack christianity. People knock christianity as false and fake all day around here and I don't see you asking them "what makes them a religion expert" or "what are your credentials." Someone says islam is a false religion and it starts a multi-day hundreds of posts thread because you lashed out at him for saying it.
Where are you when people say all religions are false? Oh yeah, you are respecting their opinion. Where are you when people are knocking christians? Oh yeah, you are respecting their opinions. But if a christian says something, you feel the need to jump in. Doesn't make sense to me but whatever.

Atheists do not accept any religion. Some still may be knowledgable about scripture such as everyone's good buddy GBM others may not but none of them or anyone else is a religious expert. (Again there is only 1 religious expert and he does not post on SCF). If they are saying they don't believe in christanity, islam or anything else they are only doing what they do. I don't believe that the flying spaghetti monster is god. I'm not an expert on him I just don't believe in him. However for someone who claims to believe in God but is not an expert on everything that has to do with God to call another man's walk with God false is laughable to me.

Star_Cards
12-01-2011, 11:27 AM
i don't see you attacking any of the people who attack christianity. People knock christianity as false and fake all day around here and I don't see you asking them "what makes them a religion expert" or "what are your credentials." Someone says islam is a false religion and it starts a multi-day hundreds of posts thread because you lashed out at him for saying it.
Where are you when people say all religions are false? Oh yeah, you are respecting their opinion. Where are you when people are knocking christians? Oh yeah, you are respecting their opinions. But if a christian says something, you feel the need to jump in. Doesn't make sense to me but whatever.

most of the times when I'm defending another religion other than christianity it's because people are wanting to keep the other religion from doing something like build a mosque or something similar to that. The defense comes from trying to take away a freedom or religion. Anytime I question christianity or any other religion I am in no way trying to force them to not have that freedom or conform to my beliefs and make others live by them through governmental law. For me I have issue with any religion if they are trying to force others to follow their rules by making them legislation.

If a christian church was not allowed to build a church on land they own by people of a different religion I would stick up for them and their right to do so.

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 11:27 AM
Atheists to not accept any religion. Some still may be knowledgable about scripture such as everyone's good buddy GBM others may not but none of them or anyone else is a religious expert. If they are saying they don't believe in christanity, islam or anything else they are only doing what they do. I don't believe that the flying spaghetti monster is god. I'm not an expert on him I just don't believe in him. However for someone who claims to believe in God but is not an expert on everyting God to call another man's walk with God false is laughable to me.

oh, ok. so an atheist can call christianity false, but that's ok because that is what atheists do. but if a christian calls islam false, he is worthy of debate, ridicule, and confrontation. gotcha.

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 11:28 AM
most of the times when I'm defending another religion other than christianity it's because people are wanting to keep the other religion from doing something like build a mosque or something similar to that. The defense comes from trying to take away a freedom or religion. Anytime I question christianity or any other religion I am in no way trying to force them to not have that freedom or conform to my beliefs and make others live by them through governmental law. For me I have issue with any religion if they are trying to force others to follow their rules by making them legislation.

If a christian church was not allowed to build a church on land they own by people of a different religion I would stick up for them and their right to do so.

my comments were primarily for veggieman and the way he has responded in this thread. I would agree with you. I would have a problem with christians trying to stop the building of other religious temples, etc. as well.

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 11:40 AM
oh, ok. so an atheist can call christianity false, but that's ok because that is what atheists do. but if a christian calls islam false, he is worthy of debate, ridicule, and confrontation. gotcha.


Atheists do not believe in any God so it would only be natural to call religion false. They may or may not be knowlegable about a particular religion but they don't accept any. However christians/muslims/jews do believe in God despite the fact that some of their competitors believe that they don't but thats for a different debate. The point is like I said earlier how could someone who believes in God call another man's walk with God false? God is the only religious authority and expert on all things religion. None of us on here have the right to judge what's in another man's heart. Stop trying to do God's job. He dosen't want nor does he need any of our help.

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 11:44 AM
Atheists do not believe in any God so it would only be natural to call religion false. They may or may not be knowlegable about a particular religion but they don't accept any. However christians/muslims/jews do believe in God despite the fact that some of their competitors believe that they don't but thats for a different debate. The point is like I said earlier how could someone who believes in God call another man's walk with God false? God is the only religious authority and expert on all things religion. None of us on here have the right to judge what's in another man's heart. Stop trying to do God's job. He dosen't want nor does he need any of our help.

he also doesn't want or need us watering down his message in an attempt to be politically correct and universally accepted.

sanfran22
12-01-2011, 11:51 AM
Atheists do not accept any religion. Some still may be knowledgable about scripture such as everyone's good buddy GBM others may not but none of them or anyone else is a religious expert. (Again there is only 1 religious expert and he does not post on SCF). If they are saying they don't believe in christanity, islam or anything else they are only doing what they do. I don't believe that the flying spaghetti monster is god. I'm not an expert on him I just don't believe in him. However for someone who claims to believe in God but is not an expert on everything that has to do with God to call another man's walk with God false is laughable to me.

So here's my question....why do you even attend a church? Your pastor shouldn't be a "religious expert" per your definition. Makes no sense whatsoever.

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 12:03 PM
So here's my question....why do you even attend a church? Your pastor shouldn't be a "religious expert" per your definition. Makes no sense whatsoever.


My bishop is very well spoken and very knowledgable on what he speaks. However even he will admit that he does not know everything and learns new things every day. Mabey your preacher man claims to know it all and if that's what floats your boat then more power to you but I know for a fact that there is only 1 that does indeed know it all and has all of the answers.

sanfran22
12-01-2011, 12:05 PM
My bishop is very well spoken and very knowledgable on what he speaks. However even he will admit that he does not know everything and learns new things every day. Mabey your preacher man claims to know it all and if that's what floats your boat then more power to you but I know for a fact that there is only 1 that does indeed know it all and has all of the answers.

No one knows all the answers, but we should all know the basic tenets of our faith. They are pretty clear and undeniable if you are truly a Christian. By your definition though, we shouldn't listen to anyone because they are no expert. So no need to attend a church.

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 12:06 PM
My bishop is very well spoken and very knowledgable on what he speaks. However even he will admit that he does not know everything and learns new things every day. Mabey your preacher man claims to know it all and if that's what floats your boat then more power to you but I know for a fact that there is only 1 that does indeed know it all and has all of the answers.

i readily admit i don't know all the answers and never will. but you seem to be equating not knowing all the answers to not knowing any. just because i do not know everything, does not exclude me from having answers. There are some things that are absolute truth and I don't need to be God to understand that.

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 12:35 PM
No one knows all the answers, but we should all know the basic tenets of our faith. They are pretty clear and undeniable if you are truly a Christian. By your definition though, we shouldn't listen to anyone because they are no expert. So no need to attend a church.

Ya'll really like to spin my words around to make them appear what you want them to be. Again my bishop is more knowledgable on the subject of christanity than I am. Just like Phil Jackson is more knowledgable on me in basketball or Wolfgang Puck or more knowledgable than me on cooking. Do either of them know all their is to know in their chosen paths? No and I'm pretty sure all of them would admit to that.

sanfran22
12-01-2011, 12:41 PM
Ya'll really like to spin my words around to make them appear what you want them to be. Again my bishop is more knowledgable on the subject of christanity than I am. Just like Phil Jackson is more knowledgable on me in basketball or Wolfgang Puck or more knowledgable than me on cooking. Do either of them know all their is to know in their chosen paths? No and I'm pretty sure all of them would admit to that.

No one here has said they know everything. So your primary point is false. It is pretty apparent, though, that taxman, myself, ensberg, even duane who claims agnostic know more truth on the subject then yourself just by what you have been posting (and I'm strictly going by your posts which do not line up Biblically.). My question to you was why listen to anyone then? You are missing the point and doubletalking so I am done with this subject.

AUTaxMan
12-01-2011, 12:41 PM
Ya'll really like to spin my words around to make them appear what you want them to be. Again my bishop is more knowledgable on the subject of christanity than I am. Just like Phil Jackson is more knowledgable on me in basketball or Wolfgang Puck or more knowledgable than me on cooking. Do either of them know all their is to know in their chosen paths? No and I'm pretty sure all of them would admit to that.

Nobody is spinning anything. If you mean something other than what you have been saying, I suggest you think about what you type a little bit more before you post it.

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 12:47 PM
No one here has said they know everything. So your primary point is false. It is pretty apparent, though, that taxman, myself, ensberg, even duane who claims agnostic know more truth on the subject then yourself just by what you have been posting (and I'm strictly going by your posts which do not line up Biblically.). My question to you was why listen to anyone then? You are missing the point and doubletalking so I am done with this subject.


To answer your question the point of going to church, mosque, any other religious institution or school for that matter is to learn and grow. Not to become a hateful bigot. You can stay home to be closed minded. ignorant and hateful.

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 12:51 PM
To answer your question the point of going to church, mosque, any other religious institution or school for that matter is to learn and grow. Not to become a hateful bigot. You can stay home to be closed minded. ignorant and hateful.

congratulations on being open minded. you have definitely succeeded. well, except for the whole be accepting of everyone who isn't a christian who dares believe the bible.

Star_Cards
12-01-2011, 12:53 PM
my comments were primarily for veggieman and the way he has responded in this thread. I would agree with you. I would have a problem with christians trying to stop the building of other religious temples, etc. as well.

I knew that. Just wanted to toss my side out there since I'm usually one that is less than pro-religion.

sanfran22
12-01-2011, 12:55 PM
To answer your question the point of going to church, mosque, any other religious institution or school for that matter is to learn and grow. Not to become a hateful bigot. You can stay home to be closed minded. ignorant and hateful.

You can tell someone you believe their religion is false and not be a bigot. Or you can claim to believe something and be so lukewarm pc that you really don't know what you believe.
Here's an example....Fred Phelps and his church are bigots. what he does is wrong and ridiculous. But he and I would agree homosexuality is wrong. We both go about discussing that differently.

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 12:55 PM
I knew that. Just wanted to toss my side out there since I'm usually one that is less than pro-religion.

cool. glad to have you join our friendly conversation

Star_Cards
12-01-2011, 12:58 PM
To answer your question the point of going to church, mosque, any other religious institution or school for that matter is to learn and grow. Not to become a hateful bigot. You can stay home to be closed minded. ignorant and hateful.

I don't think most people really learn openmindedness at any religious institution. Sure they learn and grow in certain manners, but the fact that there are so many different religions and sects of religions it also kind of breeds segregation at some level. When you have so many that think they are right it's easy for some to have ill feelings about the rest. Sure this is a blanket statement, but there are a lot of people out there that think a reason to make certain things illegal is because that's what they believe because of their personal religion.

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 01:07 PM
cool. glad to have you join our friendly conversation


I second that.

gatorboymike
12-01-2011, 06:50 PM
I don't think most people really learn openmindedness at any religious institution. Sure they learn and grow in certain manners, but the fact that there are so many different religions and sects of religions it also kind of breeds segregation at some level. When you have so many that think they are right it's easy for some to have ill feelings about the rest. Sure this is a blanket statement, but there are a lot of people out there that think a reason to make certain things illegal is because that's what they believe because of their personal religion.

Theists use the term "open-minded" differently. You know, kind of like the way they use the words "faith," "theory," and "truth" differently. A theist's understanding of open-mindedness means you agree with him. Agree with him, and you're open-minded. Disagree with him, and you're close-minded.

Atheists call religions false because they make unjustified and unjustifiable claims, demand respect and privilege they have not earned and do not deserve, and because their adherents often display character unbecoming of the ideals they claim to value. Or, at least, that's what they all say about each other. Guess they need to be more "open-minded."

Theists call religions other than their own false because those religions are not their own. It does not matter to them that the other religions are virtually indistinguishable from theirs in terms of structure, mythology or ritual.

meuandthelot
12-01-2011, 09:49 PM
If this thread has taught be anything, it's that

CLEARLY GOD HATES CLEVELAND.

And the Cubbies don't sit well with God either :winking0071:

bangsportscards
12-02-2011, 12:14 AM
It's great to be a....

T
E
B
O
W
I
N
G

M
A
N
I
A
C

Since God saw this child from birth......he's still growing....and that means HUGE potential.....I'm snagging up ole Timmy cards!

I mean WO BET on this dude.......there's Tebow flipped backwards....

Brian

bangsportscards
12-02-2011, 12:21 AM
If my mind were to control my life I'd be flying around on pink dogs no doubt!

Oh God take my spirit away!

We can all fly with pink shirts on dogs with wings to the glory of God! Yes indeed!

Gatorboymike is on the glory train!

Brian

mrveggieman
12-02-2011, 08:23 AM
It's great to be a....

T
E
B
O
W
I
N
G

M
A
N
I
A
C

Since God saw this child from birth......he's still growing....and that means HUGE potential.....I'm snagging up ole Timmy cards!

I mean WO BET on this dude.......there's Tebow flipped backwards....

Brian

+1
I don't care what religion Tebow follows buying his cards is a good investment.

mrveggieman
12-02-2011, 08:24 AM
If my mind were to control my life I'd be flying around on pink dogs no doubt!

Oh God take my spirit away!

We can all fly with pink shirts on dogs with wings to the glory of God! Yes indeed!

Gatorboymike is on the glory train!

Brian


???

AUTaxMan
12-02-2011, 09:56 AM
Atheists call religions false because they make unjustified and unjustifiable claims, demand respect and privilege they have not earned and do not deserve, and because their adherents often display character unbecoming of the ideals they claim to value.

Do atheists call their own religion false?

Hilfiger1975
12-02-2011, 09:59 AM
Do atheists call their own religion false?
Humor me. What religion?

habsheaven
12-02-2011, 10:00 AM
Do atheists call their own religion false?

I wasn't aware that Atheism was a religion.

Hilfiger1975
12-02-2011, 10:05 AM
I wasn't aware that Atheism was a religion.
You didn't know?!?! If you don't believe in the boogieman then you are called a boogiemanists...

AUTaxMan
12-02-2011, 10:07 AM
I wasn't aware that Atheism was a religion.

You learn something every day.

mrveggieman
12-02-2011, 10:09 AM
I wasn't aware that Atheism was a religion.


Atheism isn't a religion per se however some and the keyword is some atheists try to turn their atheism into a religion in order to compete with religion which is pretty stupid in my book because if you don't believe in any religion why are you trying to be like one?

Hilfiger1975
12-02-2011, 10:18 AM
atheism isn't a religion per se however some and the keyword is some atheists try to turn their atheism into a religion in order to compete with religion which is pretty stupid in my book because if you don't believe in any religion why are you trying to be like one?
+1

bangsportscards
12-02-2011, 10:39 AM
Join me in unison as we bow down in gracious Tebowing style to honor the great football force that they call Timmy TEEEEBBBOOOWWW.

So how many Tebow cards have you picked up today?

Brian

Hilfiger1975
12-02-2011, 10:43 AM
Join me in unison as we bow down in gracious Tebowing style to honor the great football force that they call Timmy TEEEEBBBOOOWWW.

So how many Tebow cards have you picked up today?

Brian
None, can't even get base...

mrveggieman
12-02-2011, 10:44 AM
Join me in unison as we bow down in gracious Tebowing style to honor the great football force that they call Timmy TEEEEBBBOOOWWW.

So how many Tebow cards have you picked up today?

Brian


No but I am getting some stamps this weekend and am looking to make a few trades. Also does anyone have any of those free bible testimony cards that look like a regular sports card on the front but have a testimony on the back that they are willing to trade? If so PM me. Thanks and back to our lovely religious debate........

1of23
12-02-2011, 10:46 AM
I dont see why every one treats him like he is the second coming of Christ?

I love this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNVRT4oKiW4

Hilfiger1975
12-02-2011, 10:55 AM
I dont see why every one treats him like he is the second coming of Christ?

I love this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNVRT4oKiW4
Ya, it's real cool to make fun of someone's religion. I hope that tool breaks both his ankles, too...

1of23
12-02-2011, 10:58 AM
Where in that post is there someone making fun of religion?

Hilfiger1975
12-02-2011, 11:00 AM
Where in that post is there someone making fun of religion?
I'm not a big fan of the whole "tebowing" fad...

bangsportscards
12-02-2011, 11:00 AM
Hey it's all in fun for those secure in Christ!

Who can accurately judge another's heart? Not me! Nor you as we aren't that gifted yet.

We can be encouraged by Tim's faith life and use it to help ourselves make the wisest choices!

Jesus is alive!

Brian

Hilfiger1975
12-02-2011, 11:01 AM
Hey it's all in fun for those secure in Christ!

Who can accurately judge another's heart? Not me! Nor you as we aren't that gifted yet.

We can be encouraged by Tim's faith life and use it to help ourselves make the wisest choices!

Jesus is alive!

Brian
I'm using a 10 inch laptop can you cut that font down a notch, Chief?

1of23
12-02-2011, 11:03 AM
I'm not a big fan of the whole "tebowing" fad...

I'm not either . I'm not a fan of tebow, and i am a fan of the lions so I will let this one slide.

1of23
12-02-2011, 11:06 AM
i'm using a 10 inch laptop can you cut that font down a notch, chief?

lol +1

Hilfiger1975
12-02-2011, 11:07 AM
I'm not either . I'm not a fan of tebow, and i am a fan of the lions so I will let this one slide.
God Bless you! :winking0071:

bangsportscards
12-02-2011, 11:40 AM
That's super size font for super size experiences.

Brian

Hilfiger1975
12-02-2011, 11:42 AM
That's super size font for super size experiences.

Brian
It's also SUPER-SIZE annoying...

mrveggieman
12-02-2011, 12:08 PM
That's super size font for super size experiences.

Brian


I thought that mcdonalds stopped making supersized combos after the supersize me movie came out? Sorry I couldn't resist. :sign0020:

habsheaven
12-02-2011, 12:09 PM
Truth be told, it's obnoxious.

gatorboymike
12-02-2011, 04:17 PM
Do atheists call their own religion false?

Atheists don't have a religion, Sunny Jim.

gatorboymike
12-02-2011, 04:19 PM
Also it's becoming apparent to me that USC has nothing worthwhile to add to this discussion; all he wants to do is preach.

theonedru
12-02-2011, 06:57 PM
Atheists don't have a religion, Sunny Jim.

even believing in nothing is still believing in something

andrewhoya
12-02-2011, 07:15 PM
Truth be told, it's obnoxious.

It really is.

jsokol1626
12-02-2011, 07:53 PM
Your logic in this instance is dead on, but you are wholly missing the point of Christianity. We do believe that non-believers will go to hell. The point, however, is that we Christians want everyone else to be Christians also. You said that we want you to go to hell. No, we don't. We want you to believe what we believe, and we want you to go to heaven.

I don't want to force you to believe what I believe, as I wouldn't want anyone to force their beliefs on me. I want you to make that decision on your own. If you choose to not make that decision, there's nothing I can do about it. I don't begrudge you for it. I pity you for it, but not in a sense of moral superiority. I pity you because you don't know what you're missing out on, and it makes me sad for you.

The Christian religion is about love, not hate. That is a fact.

First, you need to stop talking as though you are the voice of all Christians, because you are not. There is no single Christian voice and that is why there are various denominations of the faith.

Secondly, you are wrong, Christianity's history is not one of love and tolerance. In fact, quite the opposite is true. Strong faith and deep convictions do not unto themselves make you a good person, nor do they insure success.

Is it wrong to have faith? No of course not. But it is wrong to think that everyone who believes in Christ must all think alike. And it is ignorant to think that all Christians are kind and loving people who are always willing to turn the other cheek, to forgive and forget.

Religion is not be worn on your sleeve as some badge of honor. I don't need a preacher to tell me what I believe. Prayer is a solemn and private word to your God, not a public display of affection.

gladdyontherise
12-02-2011, 07:54 PM
Ya, it's real cool to make fun of someone's religion. I hope that tool breaks both his ankles, too...

Again? wow


Hey it's all in fun for those secure in Christ!

Who can accurately judge another's heart? Not me! Nor you as we aren't that gifted yet.

We can be encouraged by Tim's faith life and use it to help ourselves make the wisest choices!

Jesus is alive!

Brian

Now this feels like it's trying to be forced onto others...

spuds1961
12-02-2011, 10:11 PM
I thought this thread would've died out by now.

CavFanatic31
12-02-2011, 10:55 PM
I thought this thread would've died out by now.

LOL, same here... I check in every so often and it's not looking like it will end any time soon haha

andrewhoya
12-03-2011, 07:39 AM
I thought this thread would've died out by now.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://kara.allthingsd.com/files/2009/02/energizerbunny.jpg&imgrefurl=http://allthingsd.com/20090220/carol-bartz-friday-memos-chick-flicks-the-need-for-speed-and-wow-also-here-comes-the-rerorg/&h=350&w=342&sz=47&tbnid=E2gEWOL_9_UDOM:&tbnh=120&tbnw=117&prev=/search%3Fq%3Denergizer%2Bbunny%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo% 3Du&zoom=1&q=energizer+bunny&usg=__Gg2b2fLmfyYqyNIbdRY5A38mKJ0=&sa=X&ei=NxjaTqbSG-j00gHC34iMDg&ved=0CC0Q9QEwBg

gatorboymike
12-03-2011, 12:58 PM
even believing in nothing is still believing in something

LOL...

1. Atheism is not "believing in nothing." That is nihilism. Atheism is not believing in gods.
2. "Believing in nothing" is "believing in something" the same way zero equals one, so your premise isn't even correct.
3. Having any religion whatsoever is clearly not better than having no religion. What if I believed in some religion that told me to kill and rape my brains out?

bangsportscards
12-04-2011, 07:06 PM
We all need Christ!

It's the only way!

Take it or leave it, the choice is all ours!

He is LIFE and no other power is worthwhile.

Sing it from the rooftops!

Halleluyah!

All that matters is what God thinks. If something bother us, it could be us and not other people!

Everyone is accountable to God!

Small issues can be made into mountains! It's never worth going that route!

God loves us!

Blessings abundantly!

Brian

habsheaven
12-04-2011, 07:40 PM
Brian,

Get some help while there is still time.

Hilfiger1975
12-04-2011, 07:44 PM
LOL...

1. Atheism is not "believing in nothing." That is nihilism. Atheism is not believing in gods.
2. "Believing in nothing" is "believing in something" the same way zero equals one, so your premise isn't even correct.
3. Having any religion whatsoever is clearly not better than having no religion. What if I believed in some religion that told me to kill and rape my brains out?
Thanks, for explaining that to him...

mrveggieman
12-05-2011, 08:53 AM
First, you need to stop talking as though you are the voice of all Christians, because you are not. There is no single Christian voice and that is why there are various denominations of the faith.

Secondly, you are wrong, Christianity's history is not one of love and tolerance. In fact, quite the opposite is true. Strong faith and deep convictions do not unto themselves make you a good person, nor do they insure success.

Is it wrong to have faith? No of course not. But it is wrong to think that everyone who believes in Christ must all think alike. And it is ignorant to think that all Christians are kind and loving people who are always willing to turn the other cheek, to forgive and forget.

Religion is not be worn on your sleeve as some badge of honor. I don't need a preacher to tell me what I believe. Prayer is a solemn and private word to your God, not a public display of affection.

Church!! :love0030:

mrveggieman
12-05-2011, 08:56 AM
I thought this thread would've died out by now.


Tebow never dies. Long live Tebow. :sign0020:

MadMan1978
12-05-2011, 09:38 AM
Personal I did not see JC blocking for him or catch a pass or rush the ball for the them...

Tebow is a good player ....for now....not great

gatorboymike
12-05-2011, 04:11 PM
Personal I did not see JC blocking for him or catch a pass or rush the ball for the them...

Tebow is a good player ....for now....not great

That's because JC played in the NBA. Just read The Onion.

I'm not going to include a link because Onion articles often include profanity, but just Google "Christ returns to NBA" and you'll find it.

gladdyontherise
12-05-2011, 07:31 PM
We all need Christ!

It's the only way!

Take it or leave it, the choice is all ours!

He is LIFE and no other power is worthwhile.

Sing it from the rooftops!

Halleluyah!

All that matters is what God thinks. If something bother us, it could be us and not other people!

Everyone is accountable to God!

Small issues can be made into mountains! It's never worth going that route!

God loves us!

Blessings abundantly!

Brian

Yep, defintly trying to force it upon others at this point...

spuds1961
12-05-2011, 09:14 PM
Personal I did not see JC blocking for him or catch a pass or rush the ball for the them...

Tebow is a good player ....for now....not great

Nah he was blocking,the ref called holding and got sent to hell.

jsokol1626
12-05-2011, 10:01 PM
Oh, Lord, where to begin? A member is trying to convert me. A member whose name includes "Gamecocks", animals who are bred for the purpose of violence and gambling. The mascot of a school whose students, albeit tongue in cheek, wear tee shirts imploring "GO Cocks".

And all this talk about Jesus being the only way. Really, now? Does that mean I can't order Chinese food if I go to heaven? Are my sushi days nearing an end? And what about pork bbq?

Will the Denver Broncos be the only game on Heaven TV?

Is it true that Jesus actually had 2 brothers, Manny and Felipe?

I'm so confused now. All I really wanted to do was watch some football and eat my favorite foods. Tim Tebow is changing my life, and I'm not so sure I like it. Am I a bad person for being grateful that Jesus never taught Tebow how to throw a football?

Someone told me in Heaven there is no beer? Is it true Tim Tebow? Oh, please, say it ain't so!!!

AUTaxMan
12-05-2011, 11:31 PM
Oh, Lord, where to begin? A member is trying to convert me. A member whose name includes "Gamecocks", animals who are bred for the purpose of violence and gambling. The mascot of a school whose students, albeit tongue in cheek, wear tee shirts imploring "GO Cocks".

And all this talk about Jesus being the only way. Really, now? Does that mean I can't order Chinese food if I go to heaven? Are my sushi days nearing an end? And what about pork bbq?

Will the Denver Broncos be the only game on Heaven TV?

Is it true that Jesus actually had 2 brothers, Manny and Felipe?

I'm so confused now. All I really wanted to do was watch some football and eat my favorite foods. Tim Tebow is changing my life, and I'm not so sure I like it. Am I a bad person for being grateful that Jesus never taught Tebow how to throw a football?

Someone told me in Heaven there is no beer? Is it true Tim Tebow? Oh, please, say it ain't so!!!

Did that post make you feel better about yourself?

jsokol1626
12-05-2011, 11:42 PM
Did that post make you feel better about yourself?

It's not always about me, but yeah, it did. I'm more productive when I'm smiling. I smile every time I realize how fortunate I was not to be born in either Alabama nor South Carolina.

mrveggieman
12-06-2011, 08:04 AM
It's not always about me, but yeah, it did. I'm more productive when I'm smiling. I smile every time I realize how fortunate I was not to be born in either Alabama nor South Carolina.


Church!! :love0030:

AUTaxMan
12-06-2011, 11:22 AM
Church!! :love0030:

You are "churching" an insult?

sanfran22
12-06-2011, 11:22 AM
You are "churching" an insult?

Would you think otherwise?

mrveggieman
12-06-2011, 11:37 AM
I dont have a problem with alabama. I know people in sc and was picking with them. It was an inside joke.

Triple Peanut
12-06-2011, 12:58 PM
i've skimmed throught this thread, sorry if i'm repeating something that has already been said here....

there are many things that divide us every day (whether on a concious level or not) ie. religion, politics, race, age, finances, etc, etc
i think the great thing about sports is that for 3 hours we can set those aside and all bond/unite over being fans of the same team or league.
i can think of many times that i've been in great sports conversations with people that i probably would have never talked to otherwise.
if religion makes people happy and helps them find direction in their private lives i think that's great. the part i don't like is when the line between religion and sports gets so blurred that it becomes something that a player is best known for.

mrveggieman
12-06-2011, 01:26 PM
i've skimmed throught this thread, sorry if i'm repeating something that has already been said here....

there are many things that divide us every day (whether on a concious level or not) ie. religion, politics, race, age, finances, etc, etc
i think the great thing about sports is that for 3 hours we can set those aside and all bond/unite over being fans of the same team or league.
i can think of many times that i've been in great sports conversations with people that i probably would have never talked to otherwise.
if religion makes people happy and helps them find direction in their private lives i think that's great. the part i don't like is when the line between religion and sports gets so blurred that it becomes something that a player is best known for.


Post of the day!!

Triple Peanut
12-06-2011, 01:50 PM
heh, glad you agree. i totally respect everyone's freedoms to live their life they way they want, but there are times and places for certain things. would tebow be ok with people starting a "D-Fence" chant at church? :winking0071:

bangsportscards
12-06-2011, 09:32 PM
It's the resistant nature of a human being not willing to see the truth.

Really it all boils down to effecting the one person which is lacking clear understanding and trying in their mind to work life out.

One great thing about living with Jesus is the power and ability to see past insults, wrong attitudes of the heart, misperceptions, etc without taking offense or having to retaliate.

It's all about Jesus Christ. It can be accepted or not. My worse day with Jesus beats all my best days without Him.

Either Jesus is in your heart or not. It's not about being better than others. It's pure mercy and grace.

When someone doesn't stand up for Christ, let Him be know, and remove Him from the issues of life, that's when chaos, confusion, doubt, fears, etc are allowed to enter in.

God made everything with an order. We are born with a bent towards rebellion. Jesus is here to restore sanity.

There are no personal attacks here. Jesus has my heart and for that I am grateful.

We all have those right decisions to make and I'm chosing the love and direction of Christ to show me how to live.

God loves us all!

Brian

jsokol1626
12-06-2011, 09:37 PM
It's the resistant nature of a human being not willing to see the truth.

Really it all boils down to effecting the one person which is lacking clear understanding and trying in their mind to work life out.

One great thing about living with Jesus is the power and ability to see past insults, wrong attitudes of the heart, misperceptions, etc without taking offense or having to retaliate.

It's all about Jesus Christ. It can be accepted or not. My worse day with Jesus beats all my best days without Him.

Either Jesus is in your heart or not. It's not about being better than others. It's pure mercy and grace.

When someone doesn't stand up for Christ, let Him be know, and remove Him from the issues of life, that's when chaos, confusion, doubt, fears, etc are allowed to enter in.

God made everything with an order. We are born with a bent towards rebellion. Jesus is here to restore sanity.

There are no personal attacks here. Jesus has my heart and for that I am grateful.

We all have those right decisions to make and I'm chosing the love and direction of Christ to show me how to live.

God loves us all!

Brian

Thank you, Brian, I think we all understand what you believe. Now, can we move on?

bangsportscards
12-06-2011, 09:40 PM
Here's food for thought.

Tebow is great because....

1. Great can be defined in different measures.

2. Good now can be developed into great by belief.

3. Greatness comes by sharing the goodness of Jesus.

Brian

habsheaven
12-06-2011, 10:23 PM
Tebow sucks because .....

1. Jesus sucks.

2. Jesus still sucks.

3. Jesus will always suck.

MadMan1978
12-06-2011, 10:25 PM
Ok thisis enough

before we a holy war starts....