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habsheaven
11-30-2011, 11:24 AM
I have always been led to believe the following (paraphrasing a bit here, so let's not get caught up in the details):

If I do not accept Jesus Christ as my saviour in this life, I will not be able to join God in the after life.

Here are my questions. Why would a God expect me to believe hearsay passed down for 2,000 years by men, all of which started out their lives just as ignorant to the process as I; the only difference between them and I is that they choose to believe?

Why would this God reject me when I leave this mortal world for basically taking the same stance on hearsay as the society I live in does?

Why would this one stance of mine outweigh how I lived my life in His eyes? Why does this God place all the emphasis on having a personal relationship with him, rather than having good relationships with my fellow man?

duane1969
11-30-2011, 11:29 AM
The same can be asked of all religions.

pghin08
11-30-2011, 11:31 AM
I have always been led to believe the following (paraphrasing a bit here, so let's not get caught up in the details):

If I do not accept Jesus Christ as my saviour in this life, I will not be able to join God in the after life.

Here are my questions. Why would a God expect me to believe hearsay passed down for 2,000 years by men, all of which started out their lives just as ignorant to the process as I; the only difference between them and I is that they choose to believe?

Why would this God reject me when I leave this mortal world for basically taking the same stance on hearsay as the society I live in does?

Why would this one stance of mine outweigh how I lived my life in His eyes? Why does this God place all the emphasis on having a personal relationship with him, rather than having good relationships with my fellow man?

P&R Forum is getting uber existential. My friend, if you ever find the answers to these, please let me know.

habsheaven
11-30-2011, 11:34 AM
The same can be asked of all religions.

Yes it can. I could re-phrase the question but since Christianity is the religion of most on this board, and the religion I know, I figured it best to ask the Christians.

The question is still valid.

habsheaven
11-30-2011, 11:36 AM
P&R Forum is getting uber existential. My friend, if you ever find the answers to these, please let me know.

Should not the believers have asked themselves these questions already? I have to assume they found adequate answers and therefore chose to believe.

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 11:38 AM
This is my two cents on the matter. Despite what some of our more hardened religious believers on here say it is not anyone's responsiblity on here to get you or anyone else to believe in God or not to believe in him. Yes some of them are trying to sway you one way or another but I don't think that is their place to do so. If you are interested in finding God you have to reach out for him yourself. You would be surprised in what he may put in your heart. God may not direct you to become a christian. He may direct you to become a jew, muslim or something else that hasn't been discussed for that matter. Yes people want to strong arm their religion on others and they are poor examples of christians, muslims, jews etc. When it is your time to find God you will go because you want to not because someone strong armed or insulted you. Also go with what's in your heart not the popular religion or what your family and friends follow. I pray offer my sincere prayer that you will one day find what your heart desires.

ensbergcollector
11-30-2011, 11:42 AM
look, some people require proof and evidence before they believe anything. For those people, religion doesn't work. If they choose to seek it they demand god answer to them. God is very upfront, in all religions, that belief will require faith, not proof.

as to your last question, the whole point of heaven is spending eternity in the presence of God. So, of course your decision about whether to acknowledge him in this life should matter.

I will repeat what i wrote on the other thread. People want to live a life where they can do whatever they want, deny, curse, etc. God and then when they die, if God is good he better give them what they deserve. It doesn't work like that. I see the appeal of that life choice but it doesn't.

As to your first question, the people who have found adequate answers are those who took God at his word that it would require faith, instead of waiting around for God to prove himself to them. they found enough reason to put faith in God. I'm actually not trying to make light of it. That is actually the biggest difference.

habsheaven
11-30-2011, 11:43 AM
This is my two cents on the matter. Despite what some of our more hardened religious believers on here say it is not anyone's responsiblity on here to get you or anyone else to believe in God or not to believe in him. Yes some of them are trying to sway you one way or another but I don't think that is their place to do so. If you are interested in finding God you have to reach out for him yourself. You would be surprised in what he may put in your heart. God may not direct you to become a christian. He may direct you to become a jew, muslim or something else that hasn't been discussed for that matter. Yes people want to strong arm their religion on others and they are poor examples of christians, muslims, jews etc. When it is your time to find God you will go because you want to not because someone strong armed or insulted you. Also go with what's in your heart not the popular religion or what your family and friends follow. I pray offer my sincere prayer that you will one day find what your heart desires.

Thanks for the response but it doesn't answer the question. I am not looking to find God in my own way. I simply want to know why do you think God "expects/requires" me to believe in Him?

ensbergcollector
11-30-2011, 11:46 AM
This is my two cents on the matter. Despite what some of our more hardened religious believers on here say it is not anyone's responsiblity on here to get you or anyone else to believe in God or not to believe in him. Yes some of them are trying to sway you one way or another but I don't think that is their place to do so. If you are interested in finding God you have to reach out for him yourself. You would be surprised in what he may put in your heart. God may not direct you to become a christian. He may direct you to become a jew, muslim or something else that hasn't been discussed for that matter. Yes people want to strong arm their religion on others and they are poor examples of christians, muslims, jews etc. When it is your time to find God you will go because you want to not because someone strong armed or insulted you. Also go with what's in your heart not the popular religion or what your family and friends follow. I pray offer my sincere prayer that you will one day find what your heart desires.

you realize that by taking that stance you are making all religions false. every religion claims to be the only one. Every holy book asks their followers to seek out and save the lost. How can you say it isn't their place to do so? Every version of God asks that of his followers. Now, I am firmly against anyone strong arming or insulting, or scaring someone into belief. If I may ask, what kind of church do you attend and how often do you agree with the lesson? Because if it is a christian church, i would have to assume you disagree with a large percentage of what is taught.

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 11:47 AM
Thanks for the response but it doesn't answer the question. I am not looking to find God in my own way. I simply want to know why do you think God "expects/requires" me to believe in Him?


To be honest none of us can answer that question. That is something that only God can answer for you.

sanfran22
11-30-2011, 11:52 AM
This is my two cents on the matter. Despite what some of our more hardened religious believers on here say it is not anyone's responsiblity on here to get you or anyone else to believe in God or not to believe in him. Yes some of them are trying to sway you one way or another but I don't think that is their place to do so. If you are interested in finding God you have to reach out for him yourself. You would be surprised in what he may put in your heart. God may not direct you to become a christian. He may direct you to become a jew, muslim or something else that hasn't been discussed for that matter. Yes people want to strong arm their religion on others and they are poor examples of christians, muslims, jews etc. When it is your time to find God you will go because you want to not because someone strong armed or insulted you. Also go with what's in your heart not the popular religion or what your family and friends follow. I pray offer my sincere prayer that you will one day find what your heart desires.

Actually, we are commanded to witness many times in the Bible. So you would be incorrect....
Matt 28: 19-20
Acts 1:8
are just a few examples.
No one is strong arming here. It's our witness and we are planting a seed. I don't see anyone recommending converting by force.. We have all said it is your choice. There is only one way and it's pretty clear....
2 Corinthians 4:4
Jn 3:16
Romans 6:23
Jn 17:3
Acts 4:12

duane1969
11-30-2011, 11:52 AM
Thanks for the response but it doesn't answer the question. I am not looking to find God in my own way. I simply want to know why do you think God "expects/requires" me to believe in Him?

Maybe this is the answer you seek?

God originally created Adam and Eve to be the perfect image of himself. The perfection of love and caring. They were one with nature. The animals did not fear them, they feared nothing. Then they sinned. The perfection was lost. God desires for us to seek that perfection that he intended for us to be.

God does not expect/require that we believe in him, but he desires it. He desires for us to want to be the perfect vessels that he intended for us to be. The embodiment of being Christian is the effort to be what he intended for us to be from the beginning.

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 11:53 AM
you realize that by taking that stance you are making all religions false. every religion claims to be the only one. Every holy book asks their followers to seek out and save the lost. How can you say it isn't their place to do so? Every version of God asks that of his followers. Now, I am firmly against anyone strong arming or insulting, or scaring someone into belief. If I may ask, what kind of church do you attend and how often do you agree with the lesson? Because if it is a christian church, i would have to assume you disagree with a large percentage of what is taught.


I go to a black christian church in that atlanta area. And btw incase anyone was wondering all races attend the church as well. And you are wrong with your assumptions once again. I keep coming back every week because if feel that my bishop is on point with his teachings. He really dosen't spend that much time clowing other religions because he is trying to build us up not tearing down others. Just like in business put your best effort in promoting your own product not tearing down someone elses. Let the consumer/worshiper decide what they ultimately want.

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 11:54 AM
maybe this is the answer you seek?

God originally created adam and eve to be the perfect image of himself. The perfection of love and caring. They were one with nature. The animals did not fear them, they feared nothing. Then they sinned. The perfection was lost. God desires for us to seek that perfection that he intended for us to be.

God does not expect/require that we believe in him, but he desires it. He desires for us to want to be the perfect vessels that he intended for us to be. The embodiment of being christian is the effort to be what he intended for us to be from the beginning.


+1

habsheaven
11-30-2011, 11:59 AM
look, some people require proof and evidence before they believe anything. For those people, religion doesn't work. If they choose to seek it they demand god answer to them. God is very upfront, in all religions, that belief will require faith, not proof.

as to your last question, the whole point of heaven is spending eternity in the presence of God. So, of course your decision about whether to acknowledge him in this life should matter.

I will repeat what i wrote on the other thread. People want to live a life where they can do whatever they want, deny, curse, etc. God and then when they die, if God is good he better give them what they deserve. It doesn't work like that. I see the appeal of that life choice but it doesn't.

As to your first question, the people who have found adequate answers are those who took God at his word that it would require faith, instead of waiting around for God to prove himself to them. they found enough reason to put faith in God. I'm actually not trying to make light of it. That is actually the biggest difference.

First bold: most non-believers do not live a life where they can do WHATEVER they want. For most, the only difference between themselves and believers is they do not believe. Are you, or God for that matter, implying that the position of a non-believer is unreasonable?

Second bold: In order to "take God at His word" you have to first BELIEVE the MEN that tell you it is God's word. Do you not?

ensbergcollector
11-30-2011, 12:01 PM
I go to a black christian church in that atlanta area. And btw incase anyone was wondering all races attend the church as well. And you are wrong with your assumptions once again. I keep coming back every week because if feel that my bishop is on point with his teachings. He really dosen't spend that much time clowing other religions because he is trying to build us up not tearing down others. Just like in business put your best effort in promoting your own product not tearing down someone elses. Let the consumer/worshiper decide what they ultimately want.

i definitely wasn't talking about knocking other religions. i have been in ministry 12 years and have never heard a sermon knocking anyone else. I meant the idea that we aren't supposed to reach out to other people and lead them to christianity. that is one of the largest teaching in the new testament. Also, the idea that all religions are the same. One of jesus' largest teachings was that he was the only way to God. Just seems hard for a christian to not believe either of those things.

ensbergcollector
11-30-2011, 12:03 PM
First bold: most non-believers do not live a life where they can do WHATEVER they want. For most, the only difference between themselves and believers is they do not believe. Are you, or God for that matter, implying that the position of a non-believer is unreasonable?

Second bold: In order to "take God at His word" you have to first BELIEVE the MEN that tell you it is God's word. Do you not?

i don't think the life of a non-believer is unreasonable, but that also doesn't make it right (i was not trying to imply all non-believers do whatever they want, sorry for any confusion)

yes, you would definitely have to have faith in God's word.

habsheaven
11-30-2011, 12:09 PM
Maybe this is the answer you seek?

God originally created Adam and Eve to be the perfect image of himself. The perfection of love and caring. They were one with nature. The animals did not fear them, they feared nothing. Then they sinned. The perfection was lost. God desires for us to seek that perfection that he intended for us to be.

God does not expect/require that we believe in him, but he desires it. He desires for us to want to be the perfect vessels that he intended for us to be. The embodiment of being Christian is the effort to be what he intended for us to be from the beginning.

So when He doesn't get what he desires from me, He proceeds to shun me in death. Despite the fact that my only convincing is a bunch of MEN who claim to be spreading His word.

Does this sound reasonable to anyone?

duane1969
11-30-2011, 12:12 PM
Second bold: In order to "take God at His word" you have to first BELIEVE the MEN that tell you it is God's word. Do you not?

Again, the same can be said about pretty much anything historic. We have to accept that scientist are honest when they talk about global warming trends, we have to accept that historians are acurately describing how Rome rose and fell...it takes a little faith and trust to believe anything that we can not personally hold tangible proof of.

ensbergcollector
11-30-2011, 12:14 PM
So when He doesn't get what he desires from me, He proceeds to shun me in death. Despite the fact that my only convincing is a bunch of MEN who claim to be spreading His word.

Does this sound reasonable to anyone?

like I said in my original response, for those who demand proof it doesn't seem reasonable. Instead, we DEMAND that God prove himself to us. If, just for this conversations sake, you believe everything about God, is it reasonable for us to demand anything of him?

duane1969
11-30-2011, 12:15 PM
So when He doesn't get what he desires from me, He proceeds to shun me in death. Despite the fact that my only convincing is a bunch of MEN who claim to be spreading His word.

Does this sound reasonable to anyone?

Actually we are doomed to death by the actions of Adam and Eve. Jesus' death on the cross is the gift that we were given by God to free us from the burden of sin placed upon us by Adam and Eve.

He does not shun you in death, you shun him.

If you are hanging off of a cliff and are about to fall and someone offers you their hand to help you up, you either take their hand or you do not. If you do not then they did not shun you, you shunned them, and are responsible for your own death.

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 12:16 PM
i definitely wasn't talking about knocking other religions. i have been in ministry 12 years and have never heard a sermon knocking anyone else. I meant the idea that we aren't supposed to reach out to other people and lead them to christianity. that is one of the largest teaching in the new testament. Also, the idea that all religions are the same. One of jesus' largest teachings was that he was the only way to God. Just seems hard for a christian to not believe either of those things.


I follow God and try to live my lifes actions as an example to others. If someone asks me I tell them how I live my life and how things work for me. If that turns someone one to christanity then I will assist them in any manner possible. As far as what the next man does that is between them and their God. If I wasted energy trying to prove why someone else is wrong that same energy could have been used to help someone get right.

AUTaxMan
11-30-2011, 12:26 PM
It is almost impossible for a Christian to convince an atheist of belief in God on the basis of logic. Arguments can be made that at the very least that it is just as logical to believe in God as it is not to believe in Him. Engaging in these arguments, though often entertaining, challenging, frustrating, and thought-provoking, however, is usually a Sisyphean task.

You should believe because it gives you hope and a purpose and changes lives for the better. It gives you a refuge in times of trouble. It allows you to never be alone or feel unloved. You should believe because of the joy it will bring your life and the lives of the people you love. I can say this, because I have witnessed it and experienced it myself. Experiencing that life is the best argument for why you should believe.

habsheaven
11-30-2011, 12:26 PM
like I said in my original response, for those who demand proof it doesn't seem reasonable. Instead, we DEMAND that God prove himself to us. If, just for this conversations sake, you believe everything about God, is it reasonable for us to demand anything of him?

If I were to believe "everything" about God I would still EXPECT Him to be reasonable. I spend my whole mortal life expecting everyone else to be reasonable in all manners of life (laws, morals, relationships, business, emotions). Why should I not expect it from the entity that I put my FAITH in?

habsheaven
11-30-2011, 12:32 PM
Actually we are doomed to death by the actions of Adam and Eve. Jesus' death on the cross is the gift that we were given by God to free us from the burden of sin placed upon us by Adam and Eve.

He does not shun you in death, you shun him.

If you are hanging off of a cliff and are about to fall and someone offers you their hand to help you up, you either take their hand or you do not. If you do not then they did not shun you, you shunned them, and are responsible for your own death.

If, as you imply, my mortal life is the equivalent to hanging off of a cliff. When is He going to offer me His hand? Why would I take the extended hand of what I perceive to be a 2 year old?

Star_Cards
11-30-2011, 12:34 PM
look, some people require proof and evidence before they believe anything. For those people, religion doesn't work. If they choose to seek it they demand god answer to them. God is very upfront, in all religions, that belief will require faith, not proof.

as to your last question, the whole point of heaven is spending eternity in the presence of God. So, of course your decision about whether to acknowledge him in this life should matter.

I will repeat what i wrote on the other thread. People want to live a life where they can do whatever they want, deny, curse, etc. God and then when they die, if God is good he better give them what they deserve. It doesn't work like that. I see the appeal of that life choice but it doesn't.

As to your first question, the people who have found adequate answers are those who took God at his word that it would require faith, instead of waiting around for God to prove himself to them. they found enough reason to put faith in God. I'm actually not trying to make light of it. That is actually the biggest difference.

I find it a bit odd that it's thought that a person who doesn't believe in a god lives a bad life when compared to a person with faith. I'm not sure how to take "People want to live a life where they can do whatever they want". I think I take that as saying that living how you want is bad or not as pure as someone who lives with a faith in a religion. People, even without a religion, can still live and respect other people and live a "good" life. It's completely possible that someone without faith could live a much less sinful life (by the definitions of any religion) than someone who does have faith in any religion.

Star_Cards
11-30-2011, 12:38 PM
If I were to believe "everything" about God I would still EXPECT Him to be reasonable. I spend my whole mortal life expecting everyone else to be reasonable in all manners of life (laws, morals, relationships, business, emotions). Why should I not expect it from the entity that I put my FAITH in?

I agree with your point. If a god's presence is so ambiguous to his creations it seems to me that he would have leniency when judging ones who don't believe or have their doubts or believed the wrong religion. Seems to me actions would be far more important than whether or not someone just simply believed there was a god.

Star_Cards
11-30-2011, 12:40 PM
I'll also add, if God's goal was to have everyone follow and live a life under his rules why would he not make his presence more concrete? Seems like he would to me, even in a world of free will.

ensbergcollector
11-30-2011, 12:43 PM
If I were to believe "everything" about God I would still EXPECT Him to be reasonable. I spend my whole mortal life expecting everyone else to be reasonable in all manners of life (laws, morals, relationships, business, emotions). Why should I not expect it from the entity that I put my FAITH in?

where we are disconnecting is that i don't see it as unreasonable for God to not force someone to spend eternity with a God they refused to acknowledge or believe in. You see it as reasonable for god to welcome everyone regardless of the lives they live. that to me is unreasonable

ensbergcollector
11-30-2011, 12:45 PM
I find it a bit odd that it's thought that a person who doesn't believe in a god lives a bad life when compared to a person with faith. I'm not sure how to take "People want to live a life where they can do whatever they want". I think I take that as saying that living how you want is bad or not as pure as someone who lives with a faith in a religion. People, even without a religion, can still live and respect other people and live a "good" life. It's completely possible that someone without faith could live a much less sinful life (by the definitions of any religion) than someone who does have faith in any religion.

i agree completely and already clarified that statement so there would be no confusion. sorry about that.

duane1969
11-30-2011, 12:50 PM
If, as you imply, my mortal life is the equivalent to hanging off of a cliff. When is He going to offer me His hand? Why would I take the extended hand of what I perceive to be a 2 year old?

Obviously, if that is your perception, then you wouldn't. But that is your perception, which is not his fault.

AUTaxMan
11-30-2011, 12:53 PM
where we are disconnecting is that i don't see it as unreasonable for God to not force someone to spend eternity with a God they refused to acknowledge or believe in. You see it as reasonable for god to welcome everyone regardless of the lives they live. that to me is unreasonable

I think a lot of people confuse God's justice with God's mercy and grace, but that is probably because they do not possess the core Christian belief that sin is, by its very nature, punishable by death (eternal death, that is, not mortal death).

habsheaven
11-30-2011, 01:09 PM
where we are disconnecting is that i don't see it as unreasonable for God to not force someone to spend eternity with a God they refused to acknowledge or believe in. You see it as reasonable for god to welcome everyone regardless of the lives they live. that to me is unreasonable

No, I would think it reasonable for a God to welcome "one of His children" who lived a good life despite not believing.

Surely, a God would recognize the fact that a lot of good people are not going to believe the people He has chosen to represent Him, especially with the way many of His representatives act.

habsheaven
11-30-2011, 01:12 PM
Obviously, if that is your perception, then you wouldn't. But that is your perception, which is not his fault.

Sure it is His fault. He must have the ability to extend a hand with something that looks more reassuring than a 2 year old, but He chooses not to.

AUTaxMan
11-30-2011, 01:18 PM
Sure it is His fault. He must have the ability to extend a hand with something that looks more reassuring than a 2 year old, but He chooses not to.

Are you asking that faith not be required?

Star_Cards
11-30-2011, 01:21 PM
i agree completely and already clarified that statement so there would be no confusion. sorry about that.

well not even specifically to you, that is a primary sentiment of religious peopel I have heard and know.

habsheaven
11-30-2011, 01:22 PM
Are you asking that faith not be required?

Yes, I guess I am. Is that unreasonable?

Star_Cards
11-30-2011, 01:29 PM
It is almost impossible for a Christian to convince an atheist of belief in God on the basis of logic. Arguments can be made that at the very least that it is just as logical to believe in God as it is not to believe in Him. Engaging in these arguments, though often entertaining, challenging, frustrating, and thought-provoking, however, is usually a Sisyphean task.

You should believe because it gives you hope and a purpose and changes lives for the better. It gives you a refuge in times of trouble. It allows you to never be alone or feel unloved. You should believe because of the joy it will bring your life and the lives of the people you love. I can say this, because I have witnessed it and experienced it myself. Experiencing that life is the best argument for why you should believe.

we'll definitely agree to disagree that arguments for is just a logical :)

I get that for some or a lot of people they need religion to have hope and purpose, but not everyone needs that and some need it at varying degrees. I can't really explain why but it just is. for myself I find hope and purpose and joy in my life being an atheist so it works for me. If others can't, that is perfectly okay.

Star_Cards
11-30-2011, 01:41 PM
Yes, I guess I am. Is that unreasonable?

I don't think it is. There really aren't many other instances in life where people have blind faith in something or a faith that isn't tangible.

if I want someone to have faith in me then I build up that faith with positive experiences with them. I can't expect someone to have faith in me the first time I met them. for me personal experiences is what builds that.

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 01:42 PM
No, I would think it reasonable for a God to welcome "one of His children" who lived a good life despite not believing.

Surely, a God would recognize the fact that a lot of good people are not going to believe the people He has chosen to represent Him, especially with the way many of His representatives act.


Good point there are a lot of jerks posing as preachers fallwell, cain, robertson however the bible does say to be wary of false prophets. If you are ever serious about finding God (I know you said you wern't but if you are ever) look at the tebows of the world not the robertsons, bin ladens or herman cains. Personally I don't believe that god has sent any of them to represent him and they do all the evil they do out of the wickedness of their own hearts not by god's direction.

As far as God welcoming a non believer who lead an otherwise good life that is not my decision to make but the old saying is that if/when you go to heaven dont be surprised to see murderers, rapist, theives etc. So if all of God can forgive them as well as him being all knowing and all possible it is not beyond the realm of possibility that you could be forgiven. However I personally wouldn't take that chance. It's another old saying that goes something like this. It is better to live your life as like there is a god and die and find out there is not than to live your life like there is not and to die and find out there there is. I hope that helps you.

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 01:44 PM
we'll definitely agree to disagree that arguments for is just a logical :)

I get that for some or a lot of people they need religion to have hope and purpose, but not everyone needs that and some need it at varying degrees. I can't really explain why but it just is. for myself I find hope and purpose and joy in my life being an atheist so it works for me. If others can't, that is perfectly okay.

I can totally respect you for that. Atheism dosen't work at all for me but do what you do.

habsheaven
11-30-2011, 02:23 PM
Good point there are a lot of jerks posing as preachers fallwell, cain, robertson however the bible does say to be wary of false prophets. If you are ever serious about finding God (I know you said you wern't but if you are ever) look at the tebows of the world not the robertsons, bin ladens or herman cains. Personally I don't believe that god has sent any of them to represent him and they do all the evil they do out of the wickedness of their own hearts not by god's direction.

As far as God welcoming a non believer who lead an otherwise good life that is not my decision to make but the old saying is that if/when you go to heaven dont be surprised to see murderers, rapist, theives etc. So if all of God can forgive them as well as him being all knowing and all possible it is not beyond the realm of possibility that you could be forgiven. However I personally wouldn't take that chance. It's another old saying that goes something like this. It is better to live your life as like there is a god and die and find out there is not than to live your life like there is not and to die and find out there there is. I hope that helps you.

I am serious about learning the truth. I refuse to have blind faith in anything. I put my faith in people and things that are tangible.

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 02:38 PM
I am serious about learning the truth. I refuse to have blind faith in anything. I put my faith in people and things that are tangible.

I can respect that, it's hard to find truth in a bunch of right wing racists and homophobes or another bunch of people who murder innocent women
and children in God's name. However God is not the author of confusion. Some good reading for you may be Proofs for the Existance of God by Renee Decartes.

duane1969
11-30-2011, 03:04 PM
Sure it is His fault. He must have the ability to extend a hand with something that looks more reassuring than a 2 year old, but He chooses not to.

I am legit confused by this. Are you saying that a 2 year old spoke to you and said it was God? I am confused by what you mean.

habsheaven
11-30-2011, 03:28 PM
I am legit confused by this. Are you saying that a 2 year old spoke to you and said it was God? I am confused by what you mean.

You provided an analogy saying it would be my fault if I did not take the hand offered to save me if I was hanging from a cliff. I was simply offering my own analogy of what I would perceive that hand to be; that of a 2 year old child. I have no idea how you arrived at the above quote.

duane1969
11-30-2011, 03:57 PM
You provided an analogy saying it would be my fault if I did not take the hand offered to save me if I was hanging from a cliff. I was simply offering my own analogy of what I would perceive that hand to be; that of a 2 year old child. I have no idea how you arrived at the above quote.

Why would you perceive it to be the hand of a 2 year old? That is where my confusion comes from.

habsheaven
11-30-2011, 04:26 PM
Why would you perceive it to be the hand of a 2 year old? That is where my confusion comes from.

I would perceive it as such because of all the different ways a God has to "save" me, the best He can do is offer me mere mortal men who have no credibility to speak of. If He truly wants to "save" me. Send me someone that can "walk on water".

And don't say He already did. That is nothing more than hearsay.

ensbergcollector
11-30-2011, 04:30 PM
I would perceive it as such because of all the different ways a God has to "save" me, the best He can do is offer me mere mortal men who have no credibility to speak of. If He truly wants to "save" me. Send me someone that can "walk on water".

And don't say He already did. That is nothing more than hearsay.

so for you it wouldn't be enough that he send himself to earth. he would need to stay here for all eternity so no one had to have faith in anything?

FFEMT840
11-30-2011, 04:32 PM
Two simple statements here. First it is all based on faith. Secondly, all your answers will be in the Bible. I suggest the New International Version which is a more easier read. I have to use it to understand it better. Good luck!

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 04:46 PM
Two simple statements here. First it is all based on faith. Secondly, all your answers will be in the Bible. I suggest the New International Version which is a more easier read. I have to use it to understand it better. Good luck!
What's the definition of "faith", please?

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 04:53 PM
What's the definition of "faith", please?


Faith is having belief in something you cannot prove. A lot of people on here including myself have faith and I am not mad at any of them. However some people love to claim moral superiority and whenever they do we will ask them to prove it which no one can nor will do.

FFEMT840
11-30-2011, 04:54 PM
Faith is the strong belief or conviction of something for which there is no proof.

habsheaven
11-30-2011, 05:11 PM
so for you it wouldn't be enough that he send himself to earth. he would need to stay here for all eternity so no one had to have faith in anything?

He doesn't have to stay. He just needs to clear up all the confusion. Set people straight and then He can bugger off again.

And FWIW, I have "faith" in my wife, I have "faith" in my daughters. I have "faith" in my best friend.

habsheaven
11-30-2011, 05:14 PM
Faith is the strong belief or conviction of something for which there is no proof.

I can think of a few other words that can be defined in the same way.

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 05:15 PM
This is the only thing you should "believe" in...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNC8xRo9vXY&feature=youtu.be

BigBerserker
11-30-2011, 05:18 PM
"Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see."
~Hebrews 11:1

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 05:20 PM
"Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see."
~Hebrews 11:1
"Now faith gives me strength to someday think i will win the lottery."
~Warner 11:30

BigBerserker
11-30-2011, 05:22 PM
"Now faith gives me strength to someday think i will win the lottery."
~Warner 11:30

Is that a joke? I just defined a word for you.

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 05:26 PM
Is that a joke? I just defined a word for you.
Ya, i saw in the definition there was the word "hope." :winking0071:

mrveggieman
11-30-2011, 05:27 PM
"I just whipped your..." Austin 3:16

BigBerserker
11-30-2011, 05:46 PM
Ya, i saw in the definition there was the word "hope." :winking0071:

Without hope, what is there to live for? All earthly pleasures eventually come to an end. But if you have hope in something eternal, then that lasts forever.

I will try now to answer the questions originally posted:

"Why would a God expect me to believe hearsay passed down for 2,000 years by men, all of which started out their lives just as ignorant to the process as I; the only difference between them and I is that they choose to believe?"

Yes, their only difference with you is that they chose to believe after God chose to use them for His work. God does not expect you to believe in hearsay, for He boldly claims His word is living and active in the Bible. And that His words are true, and remain forever. Read Hebrews 4:12

"Why would this God reject me when I leave this mortal world for basically taking the same stance on hearsay as the society I live in does?"

God doesn't send people to Hell, we send ourselves. Remember, people are people. God will not send down a lightning bolt whenever we mess up. God judges the heart! Faith through salvation, not by works, so that no man may boast. For me personally, it was God's work in nature that painted a more clear picture in my mind which convinced me there is a God, He loves me, and He is a very jealous God.

"Why would this one stance of mine outweigh how I lived my life in His eyes? Why does this God place all the emphasis on having a personal relationship with him, rather than having good relationships with my fellow man?"

You just listed the first and second greatest commandments. Salvation is priority to God because He is the one who offered it to all those who accept. Jesus' death on the cross was His last resort (or first based on your Biblical understanding) so at the very least we could only expect Him to want a personal, daily relationship with Him. There are some people who do more good than others, but if God judges the heart and not our amount of goodness then that is pure and unbiased; although He does want us to do good too, it's just not the sole priority.

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 05:52 PM
Without hope, what is there to live for? All earthly pleasures eventually come to an end. But if you have hope in something eternal, then that lasts forever.

I will try now to answer the questions originally posted:

"Why would a God expect me to believe hearsay passed down for 2,000 years by men, all of which started out their lives just as ignorant to the process as I; the only difference between them and I is that they choose to believe?"

Yes, their only difference with you is that they chose to believe after God chose to use them for His work. God does not expect you to believe in hearsay, for He boldly claims His word is living and active in the Bible. And that His words are true, and remain forever. Read Hebrews 4:12

"Why would this God reject me when I leave this mortal world for basically taking the same stance on hearsay as the society I live in does?"

God doesn't send people to Hell, we send ourselves. Remember, people are people. God will not send down a lightning bolt whenever we mess up. God judges the heart! Faith through salvation, not by works, so that no man may boast. For me personally, it was God's work in nature that painted a more clear picture in my mind which convinced me there is a God, He loves me, and He is a very jealous God.

"Why would this one stance of mine outweigh how I lived my life in His eyes? Why does this God place all the emphasis on having a personal relationship with him, rather than having good relationships with my fellow man?"

You just listed the first and second greatest commandments. Salvation is priority to God because He is the one who offered it to all those who accept. Jesus' death on the cross was His last resort (or first based on your Biblical understanding) so at the very least we could only expect Him to want a personal, daily relationship with Him. There are some people who do more good than others, but if God judges the heart and not our amount of goodness then that is pure and unbiased; although He does want us to do good too, it's just not the sole priority.
I don't live my life by hope. Hoping is to not get hit by a bus when i walk across the street or it can be to hope i get a good job. "Hope" is a VERY vague term when comparing it to life...:winking0071: I live my life to succeed and not to "hope" because when you "hope" you are only destine to fail...:winking0071:

That's MY definition of "hope." It just goes to show how even a single word in the English dictionary can be twisted to "try" to prove a theory...it didn't work, sorry...

BigBerserker
11-30-2011, 06:02 PM
Crossing a street and hoping not to get hit is using the word hope as a verb. Believing in a eternal God fulfilling His promises is using hope as a noun. It is not until you understand the difference between Biblical hope and Websters definition of hope that you will see what God is trying to say. Read Mark 16:16. Believe my friend.

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 06:15 PM
Crossing a street and hoping not to get hit is using the word hope as a verb. Believing in a eternal God fulfilling His promises is using hope as a noun. It is not until you understand the difference between Biblical hope and Websters definition of hope that you will see what God is trying to say. Read Mark 16:16. Believe my friend.
:winking0071:

habsheaven
11-30-2011, 07:10 PM
Without hope, what is there to live for? All earthly pleasures eventually come to an end. But if you have hope in something eternal, then that lasts forever.

I will try now to answer the questions originally posted:

"Why would a God expect me to believe hearsay passed down for 2,000 years by men, all of which started out their lives just as ignorant to the process as I; the only difference between them and I is that they choose to believe?"

Yes, their only difference with you is that they chose to believe after God chose to use them for His work. God does not expect you to believe in hearsay, for He boldly claims His word is living and active in the Bible. And that His words are true, and remain forever. Read Hebrews 4:12

"Why would this God reject me when I leave this mortal world for basically taking the same stance on hearsay as the society I live in does?"

God doesn't send people to Hell, we send ourselves. Remember, people are people. God will not send down a lightning bolt whenever we mess up. God judges the heart! Faith through salvation, not by works, so that no man may boast. For me personally, it was God's work in nature that painted a more clear picture in my mind which convinced me there is a God, He loves me, and He is a very jealous God.

"Why would this one stance of mine outweigh how I lived my life in His eyes? Why does this God place all the emphasis on having a personal relationship with him, rather than having good relationships with my fellow man?"

You just listed the first and second greatest commandments. Salvation is priority to God because He is the one who offered it to all those who accept. Jesus' death on the cross was His last resort (or first based on your Biblical understanding) so at the very least we could only expect Him to want a personal, daily relationship with Him. There are some people who do more good than others, but if God judges the heart and not our amount of goodness then that is pure and unbiased; although He does want us to do good too, it's just not the sole priority.

Do you honestly not recognize the problem with your first bolded statement? The Bible is a book written by man. Men claiming something is the word of God does not make it so. You cannot cite passages in a document as an indication that the document is what it is. That makes no sense whatsoever. It is clear self-promotion.

What does "God judges the heart" mean? How do you think God has judged Jerry Falwell, Jim Baker & Fred Phelps' hearts?

Why would God be jealous, unless there is something to be jealous of?

gatorboymike
11-30-2011, 07:21 PM
"Faith consists in believing when it is beyond the power of reason to believe."
- Voltaire

"Faith, to my mind, is a stiffening process, a sort of mental starch."
- E.M. Forster

"Faith: not wanting to know what is true."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

"Faith is believing in that which I know ain't so."
- Mark Twain

"Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits."
- Dan Barker

"Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions."
- Frater Ravus

"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile."
- Kurt Vonnegut

"However wrong [faith] already is, is however wrong it will forever be. So faith offers no way to discover the real truth about anything, but it’s a great way to stay wrong forever and never admit it...even to yourself."
- AronRa

"The best way to stay ignorant forever is to have faith that you are wise."
- gatorboymike

sanfran22
11-30-2011, 07:25 PM
I don't live my life by hope. Hoping is to not get hit by a bus when i walk across the street or it can be to hope i get a good job. "Hope" is a VERY vague term when comparing it to life...:winking0071: I live my life to succeed and not to "hope" because when you "hope" you are only destine to fail...:winking0071:

That's MY definition of "hope." It just goes to show how even a single word in the English dictionary can be twisted to "try" to prove a theory...it didn't work, sorry...
Lol, well apparently a little over 50% of this country had "Hope" around 3 years ago. So I guess in that instance you were correct about the failure part...lol. (sorry, I had to do it)

habsheaven
11-30-2011, 07:29 PM
"Faith consists in believing when it is beyond the power of reason to believe."
- Voltaire

"Faith, to my mind, is a stiffening process, a sort of mental starch."
- E.M. Forster

"Faith: not wanting to know what is true."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

"Faith is believing in that which I know ain't so."
- Mark Twain

"Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits."
- Dan Barker

"Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions."
- Frater Ravus

"Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile."
- Kurt Vonnegut

"However wrong [faith] already is, is however wrong it will forever be. So faith offers no way to discover the real truth about anything, but itís a great way to stay wrong forever and never admit it...even to yourself."
- AronRa

"The best way to stay ignorant forever is to have faith that you are wise."
- gatorboymike

No offense GBM, but the bolded one best describes my take on it.

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 07:39 PM
Lol, well apparently a little over 50% of this country had "Hope" around 3 years ago. So I guess in that instance you were correct about the failure part...lol. (sorry, I had to do it)
:winking0071:

FFEMT840
11-30-2011, 08:32 PM
The Bible was written by men but it was written by men who were picked by God, inspired by God and given the Word from God himself.

Secondly habsheaven you mention having faith in your wife or kids. You can have faith in them. Lets take an example. I have faith in my wife that she will not cheat on me. I cannot state for certain that she has not but I have supporting ideas that she doesnt. These are things like her telling me she hasnt, no rumors of her cheating, etc. In this world the supporting documents are things like the air that we breathe, the animals around us, the way that our bodies work (I work in the medical profession and I can tell you that if you really study the body it is an amazing thing in what it can stand and how it can heal etc.)

I know that this discussion can go on forever. The best thing I can tell you to do is to take the time to search your soul, read the Bible, and make your own decision about religion. I can tell you that opinions are like mouths, everyone has one....and they will all be different.

Good luck!

gatorboymike
11-30-2011, 08:46 PM
The Bible was written by men but it was written by men who were picked by God, inspired by God and given the Word from God himself.

And you know that because how? Because the Bible says so! The Bible is right because the Bible says the Bible is right, and the Bible is right when the Bible says the Bible is right, because the Bible is the Bible and therefore the Bible is right when the Bible says the Bible is right.


Secondly habsheaven you mention having faith in your wife or kids. You can have faith in them. Lets take an example. I have faith in my wife that she will not cheat on me. I cannot state for certain that she has not but I have supporting ideas that she doesnt. These are things like her telling me she hasnt, no rumors of her cheating, etc. In this world the supporting documents are things like the air that we breathe, the animals around us, the way that our bodies work (I work in the medical profession and I can tell you that if you really study the body it is an amazing thing in what it can stand and how it can heal etc.)

Classic equivocation, just like you guys do with the word "theory."


I know that this discussion can go on forever. The best thing I can tell you to do is to take the time to search your soul, read the Bible, and make your own decision about religion. I can tell you that opinions are like mouths, everyone has one....and they will all be different.

Been there, done that, decided it was false.

BigBerserker
11-30-2011, 08:55 PM
"Do you honestly not recognize the problem with your first bolded statement? The Bible is a book written by man. Men claiming something is the word of God does not make it so. You cannot cite passages in a document as an indication that the document is what it is. That makes no sense whatsoever. It is clear self-promotion."

All scripture was hand written by man, true but God was the one who spoke it- He needed a hand to put pencil to paper so to speak. The Bible declared all scripture to be "God breathed" and useful for all teachings. Read 2 Timothy 3:16. There was one instance when God himself wrote his words and it was carved in stone on top Mount Sinai. You may not believe this but it too is in the Bible. If you consciously deny everything written in the Bible, and all of it's teachings, then there is nothing no one could ever do to change your decision and this is a loosing battle for yourself (I believe). Read Matthew 10:33.

"What does "God judges the heart" mean? How do you think God has judged Jerry Falwell, Jim Baker & Fred Phelps' hearts?"

Read Jeremiah 17:9. Only God knows the heart and is therefore able to judge it. If we were judged solely by our actions, then what could man possibly do to win God's favor? Whatever we give to God is pitiful because God is so very rich. He wants a personal, daily relationship which is free and can be given by anyone, not just the rich or the "good doers". What Christ did on the cross paid all debts so now the only thing left to do is to accept/believe it.

"Why would God be jealous, unless there is something to be jealous of?"
God is not jealous in the sense that you could be jealous that your neighbor just bought a brand new Cadillac and your still driving a Ford Pinto lol, he is jealous in a protective way, wanting you for himself. It's more of a zealous thing. It's difficult to describe. Once again God is so very rich so there is nothing to be jealous over but it is an adjective that describes His loving nature. Much like the love parents have over their children.

gatorboymike
11-30-2011, 09:28 PM
"Jealous in a protective way," lol...I guess when you're desperate to cling to your religion, it's OK for words to mean anything you want. Don't you think that's totally spam? It's lubricated! Well, I'm phasing.

Methinks you should do less apologetics and more apologizing.

duane1969
11-30-2011, 09:58 PM
I don't even get the point of this thread. All I see is a Christianity bashing thread. Nothing more.

1. Christianity is not credible because the Bible was transcribed by man. The same exists for all religions so why is the Bible the only focus of this discussion? If Christianity is just a bunch of religious nutjobs basing their entire lives on an unbelievable book of fairy tales and heresay then so is Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Shintoism...all of it.

2. The Bible is a book written by man and therefore not worthy of belief. Then the same applies to all writings prior to recent history. Hieroglyphics, petroglyphs, ancient Chinese and Japanese documents, The Code of Hammurabi, The Roman Annals, The Egyptian Book of the Dead, "eye-witness" accounts of Roman battles...all of it fake. Man wrote it and it can not be confirmed as accurate or authentic or truth so it is lies and deception. For the most part, all of documented history is just heresay and stories passed on so it is all untrustworthy.

3. God should prove to me, personally, that he is real. You value yourself WAY too much. 8 billion people on Earth and you are the one worthy of him proving himself to? Please.

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 10:01 PM
I don't even get the point of this thread. All I see is a Christianity bashing thread. Nothing more.

1. Christianity is not credible because the Bible was transcribed by man. The same exists for all religions so why is the Bible the only focus of this discussion? If Christianity is just a bunch of religious nutjobs basing their entire lives on an unbelievable book of fairy tales and heresay then so is Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Shintoism...all of it.

2. The Bible is a book written by man and therefore not worthy of belief. Then the same applies to all writings prior to recent history. Hieroglyphics, petroglyphs, ancient Chinese and Japanese documents, The Code of Hammurabi, The Roman Annals, The Egyptian Book of the Dead, "eye-witness" accounts of Roman battles...all of it fake. Man wrote it and it can not be confirmed as accurate or authentic or truth so it is lies and deception. For the most part, all of documented history is just heresay and stories passed on so it is all untrustworthy.

3. God should prove to me, personally, that he is real. You value yourself WAY too much. 8 billion people on Earth and you are the one worthy of him proving himself to? Please.
I agree with everything besides #3. It's 2011, God could easily send EVERYONE an email to inform everyone at one time...

duane1969
11-30-2011, 10:03 PM
I agree with everything besides #3. It's 2011, God could easily send EVERYONE an email to inform everyone at one time...

Touche

But some athiest would argue that it is just a really good Christian computer tech trying to trick us all into believing their evil religion is true.

Hilfiger1975
11-30-2011, 10:06 PM
Touche

But some athiest would argue that it is just a really good Christian computer tech trying to trick us all into believing their evil religion is true.
Not a computer email, silly...i'm talking about at one time contact every human being in this world and leave a message in your mind so there wouldn't be a single question. Because EVERYONE would be notified at the exact same time...who's going to question it if everyone get's a message in your mind at the exact same time that says, "i'm real."

habsheaven
11-30-2011, 10:16 PM
I don't even get the point of this thread. All I see is a Christianity bashing thread. Nothing more.

1. Christianity is not credible because the Bible was transcribed by man. The same exists for all religions so why is the Bible the only focus of this discussion? If Christianity is just a bunch of religious nutjobs basing their entire lives on an unbelievable book of fairy tales and heresay then so is Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Shintoism...all of it.

2. The Bible is a book written by man and therefore not worthy of belief. Then the same applies to all writings prior to recent history. Hieroglyphics, petroglyphs, ancient Chinese and Japanese documents, The Code of Hammurabi, The Roman Annals, The Egyptian Book of the Dead, "eye-witness" accounts of Roman battles...all of it fake. Man wrote it and it can not be confirmed as accurate or authentic or truth so it is lies and deception. For the most part, all of documented history is just heresay and stories passed on so it is all untrustworthy.

3. God should prove to me, personally, that he is real. You value yourself WAY too much. 8 billion people on Earth and you are the one worthy of him proving himself to? Please.

Duane, I addressed #1 in my first response to you. Did you not understand it?

With regards to #2, whether the Bible is "fake" or not is not the point being argued. The issue is that believers keep quoting the Bible in an attempt to give it credibility. GMB explained the "logic" of it a few posts ago so I won't bother to repeat it. I know that you know what I am talking about. You do have a point though, all written history IS unreliable. It is written by the victors not the vanquished.

For #3, I am not speaking for me alone. I am talking about all non-believers. Again, you know this. You just choose to respond with garbage rather than answer the question logically. To be expected I guess.

Want to try again, or is it too much for you?

duane1969
11-30-2011, 10:49 PM
Not a computer email, silly...i'm talking about at one time contact every human being in this world and leave a message in your mind so there wouldn't be a single question. Because EVERYONE would be notified at the exact same time...who's going to question it if everyone get's a message in your mind at the exact same time that says, "i'm real."

Careful. That sounds like the evil Christian brainwashing that GBM keeps ranting about...


Duane, I addressed #1 in my first response to you. Did you not understand it?

With regards to #2, whether the Bible is "fake" or not is not the point being argued. The issue is that believers keep quoting the Bible in an attempt to give it credibility. GMB explained the "logic" of it a few posts ago so I won't bother to repeat it. I know that you know what I am talking about. You do have a point though, all written history IS unreliable. It is written by the victors not the vanquished.

For #3, I am not speaking for me alone. I am talking about all non-believers. Again, you know this. You just choose to respond with garbage rather than answer the question logically. To be expected I guess.

Want to try again, or is it too much for you?

Yes, you addressed #1 but since then this entire thread has been about ripping apart Christianity with a logic that applies to all religions.

Of course Christians will quote the Bible when their beliefs are challenged. Mathmeticians quote math theories when math is challenged. Tell a mathmetician that 2+2 does not equal 4 and then challenge them to prove that it does without using math. Let me know how that works out.

Why would God present himself to non-believers? What makes them more worthy than the faithful believers?

Have you ever seen anything be too much for me? My entire day involves teaching kids who have either been expelled or are about to be expelled from school. I spend 7 hours a day in a small classroom with argumentative, confrontational, insubordinate, disrespectful teenagers, there is nothing in this forum that I can not handle. Some days the similarities between my job and the P&R forum are startling.

habsheaven
11-30-2011, 11:09 PM
Careful. That sounds like the evil Christian brainwashing that GBM keeps ranting about...



Yes, you addressed #1 but since then this entire thread has been about ripping apart Christianity with a logic that applies to all religions.

Of course Christians will quote the Bible when their beliefs are challenged. Mathmeticians quote math theories when math is challenged. Tell a mathmetician that 2+2 does not equal 4 and then challenge them to prove that it does without using math. Let me know how that works out.

Why would God present himself to non-believers? What makes them more worthy than the faithful believers?

Have you ever seen anything be too much for me? My entire day involves teaching kids who have either been expelled or are about to be expelled from school. I spend 7 hours a day in a small classroom with argumentative, confrontational, insubordinate, disrespectful teenagers, there is nothing in this forum that I can not handle. Some days the similarities between my job and the P&R forum are startling.


I am not challenging anyone's beliefs, or ripping apart christianity. I am simply asking a few questions of people who I assume have already asked themselves the same questions. If you can't provide any insight to those questions than so be it.

ONCE AGAIN, you cannot claim the BIBLE is the word of God, because THE BIBLE says so. I cannot believe you are a teacher, if you cannot understand the flaw in that logic. As for proving 2+2=4. I can do it in 4 heartbeats. 2 of yours and 2 of mine.

Obviously, the non-believers need more attention, much like your students. I never claimed them to be more WORTHY. I want God to present Himself to everyone.

Star_Cards
11-30-2011, 11:42 PM
The Bible was written by men but it was written by men who were picked by God, inspired by God and given the Word from God himself.

Secondly habsheaven you mention having faith in your wife or kids. You can have faith in them. Lets take an example. I have faith in my wife that she will not cheat on me. I cannot state for certain that she has not but I have supporting ideas that she doesnt. These are things like her telling me she hasnt, no rumors of her cheating, etc. In this world the supporting documents are things like the air that we breathe, the animals around us, the way that our bodies work (I work in the medical profession and I can tell you that if you really study the body it is an amazing thing in what it can stand and how it can heal etc.)

I know that this discussion can go on forever. The best thing I can tell you to do is to take the time to search your soul, read the Bible, and make your own decision about religion. I can tell you that opinions are like mouths, everyone has one....and they will all be different.

Good luck!

I am curious about these men who where picked by god. I need more info about this.

The faith in your wife or kids is faith or trust that is built up over time. You don't have faith that she will not cheat because someone else is telling you that she won't. You have faith because she gives you reasons, concrete evidence, that she won't from her actions or from her saying she won't. to me that is a tangible faith rather than that of a religious faith.

Saying that air, the human body, or animals really isn't evidence of a faith in a god in my opinion. just because something is amazing doesn't mean that it has to be brought to you by the hand of god. I've never understood that concept myself.

Star_Cards
11-30-2011, 11:49 PM
I don't even get the point of this thread. All I see is a Christianity bashing thread. Nothing more.

1. Christianity is not credible because the Bible was transcribed by man. The same exists for all religions so why is the Bible the only focus of this discussion? If Christianity is just a bunch of religious nutjobs basing their entire lives on an unbelievable book of fairy tales and heresay then so is Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, Sikhism, Shintoism...all of it.

2. The Bible is a book written by man and therefore not worthy of belief. Then the same applies to all writings prior to recent history. Hieroglyphics, petroglyphs, ancient Chinese and Japanese documents, The Code of Hammurabi, The Roman Annals, The Egyptian Book of the Dead, "eye-witness" accounts of Roman battles...all of it fake. Man wrote it and it can not be confirmed as accurate or authentic or truth so it is lies and deception. For the most part, all of documented history is just heresay and stories passed on so it is all untrustworthy.

3. God should prove to me, personally, that he is real. You value yourself WAY too much. 8 billion people on Earth and you are the one worthy of him proving himself to? Please.

I got the point as a question of why would a creator leave so much up to interpretation when it comes to his creations knowing about his existence and following the teachings of how he would want us to live.

I fail to see an exchange in different ideals and christian bashing. I feel it's a valid question. One that I personally can't understand myself. It's interesting to hear people's thoughts on the question... believers and non believers alike.

duane1969
11-30-2011, 11:49 PM
ONCE AGAIN, you cannot claim the BIBLE is the word of God, because THE BIBLE says so. I cannot believe you are a teacher, if you cannot understand the flaw in that logic. As for proving 2+2=4. I can do it in 4 heartbeats. 2 of yours and 2 of mine.



That is based on what you have been taught, not what you know to be fact. Teach a child from birth that 2+2=3 and he will believe that forever. You can even show him two blocks and add them to two other blocks and say "See! it makes 4" and his logical mind will argue that you are wrong.

Religious people believe what they have been taught. Whether or not it is flawed is up to each individual to decide. There is no absolute proof that there is a God, Allah, Ra or Satan, it is just accepted because it was taught that way.

spuds1961
12-01-2011, 12:03 AM
We are on a sportscardforum,let's try this anology,Do you guys think that if enough people believe in their team they will win.We weren't expected to believe the 1969 miracle mets,or the 1980 miracle on ice,or joe namath's guarantee of a win over the colts in super bowl 3.I don't try to force my beliefs on anybody else,as that's all they are is my beliefs,if you choose to believe or not that is up to each individual.I RESPECT OTHER PEOPLE'S OPINIONS AS THEY CAN BE JUST AS RIGHT IN THEIR BELIEFS AS I AM IN MINE,heck for a non believer it's as easy as shooting fish in a barrel,as all they ever have to say is show me the money.I would believe that we see signs in our everyday lives that someone or something has a hand in certain aspects of our lives,but I as all the unbelievers out there would like to see something more ironclad to prove to us there is an existence.

habsheaven
12-01-2011, 12:05 AM
That is based on what you have been taught, not what you know to be fact. Teach a child from birth that 2+2=3 and he will believe that forever. You can even show him two blocks and add them to two other blocks and say "See! it makes 4" and his logical mind will argue that you are wrong.

Religious people believe what they have been taught. Whether or not it is flawed is up to each individual to decide. There is no absolute proof that there is a God, Allah, Ra or Satan, it is just accepted because it was taught that way.

I don't even know how to respond to that.

You just can't grasp the concept of what I am saying. I am not talking about flawed beliefs. I am talking about flawed LOGIC. You can speak about scripture all you want and believe whatever you want, but you can't claim the BIBLE is something because that SAME BIBLE says it is.

This kid you speak of would have to be a moron to believe 2+2=3 after I PROVED to him it equals 4.

AUTaxMan
12-01-2011, 12:08 AM
I don't even know how to respond to that.

You just can't grasp the concept of what I am saying. I am not talking about flawed beliefs. I am talking about flawed LOGIC. You can speak about scripture all you want and believe whatever you want, but you can't claim the BIBLE is something because that SAME BIBLE says it is.

This kid you speak of would have to be a moron to believe 2+2=3 after I PROVED to him it equals 4.

Your argument makes logical sense, but you must understand that belief in the Christian faith also requires faith that the Bible is God-inspired.

habsheaven
12-01-2011, 12:11 AM
We are on a sportscardforum,let's try this anology,Do you guys think that if enough people believe in their team they will win.We weren't expected to believe the 1969 miracle mets,or the 1980 miracle on ice,or joe namath's guarantee of a win over the colts in super bowl 3.I don't try to force my beliefs on anybody else,as that's all they are is my beliefs,if you choose to believe or not that is up to each individual.I RESPECT OTHER PEOPLE'S OPINIONS AS THEY CAN BE JUST AS RIGHT IN THEIR BELIEFS AS I AM IN MINE,heck for a non believer it's as easy as shooting fish in a barrel,as all they ever have to say is show me the money.I would believe that we see signs in our everyday lives that someone or something has a hand in certain aspects of our lives,but I as all the unbelievers out there would like to see something more ironclad to prove to us there is an existence.

I do not see anyone here trying to force their beliefs on anyone else.

For every sign you can see each day of a diety's presence in our lives, I can see 5 signs of where the same diety decided to take the day off.

duane1969
12-01-2011, 12:14 AM
I got the point as a question of why would a creator leave so much up to interpretation when it comes to his creations knowing about his existence and following the teachings of how he would want us to live.

It is called free will. If God provided absolute, undeniable, unequivocal proof of his existence then there would be nothing but Christains. There would be no free will. There would be no choice in life. God did not create man to be a puppet, he created him to be an embodiment of love, joy and happiness. Giving us the right to choose our path in life is part of that.

If there was absolute proof that God is real then you could not be an athiest, I could not be agnostic and GBM could not be bigoted. We would all be Christians because our right to question and make decisions would be taken away by the undeniable truth.



I fail to see an exchange in different ideals and christian bashing. I feel it's a valid question. One that I personally can't understand myself. It's interesting to hear people's thoughts on the question... believers and non believers alike.

Some are not exchanging ideas. There is a vast difference between intellectual discussion (which this thread started as) and back-handed insults and demeaning comments meant to affront people for their beliefs.

habsheaven
12-01-2011, 12:14 AM
Your argument makes logical sense, but you must understand that belief in the Christian faith also requires faith that the Bible is God-inspired.

And that is fine. I understand that. I have no problem with someone believing the Bible is God-inspired based on faith. My problem comes when they say the Bible says so, so therefore it is.

habsheaven
12-01-2011, 12:18 AM
It is called free will. If God provided absolute, undeniable, unequivocal proof of his existence then there would be nothing but Christains. There would be no free will. There would be no choice in life. God did not create man to be a puppet, he created him to be an embodiment of love, joy and happiness. Giving us the right to choose our path in life is part of that.

If there was absolute proof that God is real then you could not be an athiest, I could not be agnostic and GBM could not be bigoted. We would all be Christians because our right to question and make decisions would be taken away by the undeniable truth.



Some are not exchanging ideas. There is a vast difference between intellectual discussion (which this thread started as) and back-handed insults and demeaning comments meant to affront people for their beliefs.

That's the whole point. God does not want you to have a choice. He wants you to choose His path. He tells his followers just that, does he not?

Did you consider the posts directed at me, "hoping I find God at some point" as demeaning?

duane1969
12-01-2011, 12:20 AM
I do not see anyone here trying to force their beliefs on anyone else.

For every sign you can see each day of a diety's presence in our lives, I can see 5 signs of where the same diety decided to take the day off.

It is not the responsibility of God (or any deity) to make people's lives perfect. Perhaps if he was a Democrat he would see it differently.

I couldn't resist LOL

habsheaven
12-01-2011, 12:25 AM
It is not the responsibility of God (or any deity) to make people's lives perfect. Perhaps if he was a Democrat he would see it differently.

I couldn't resist LOL

As funny as that is, you can't have it both ways. If the signs of a diety's existance are out there for all to see everyday, surely the signs that this diety doesn't exist are there too.

He's not a Democrat??? Prove it!

duane1969
12-01-2011, 12:26 AM
That's the whole point. God does not want you to have a choice. He wants you to choose His path. He tells his followers just that, does he not?

He WANTS you to. If he revealed himself then you would HAVE to.

Star_Cards
12-01-2011, 12:27 AM
We are on a sportscardforum,let's try this anology,Do you guys think that if enough people believe in their team they will win.We weren't expected to believe the 1969 miracle mets,or the 1980 miracle on ice,or joe namath's guarantee of a win over the colts in super bowl 3.I don't try to force my beliefs on anybody else,as that's all they are is my beliefs,if you choose to believe or not that is up to each individual.I RESPECT OTHER PEOPLE'S OPINIONS AS THEY CAN BE JUST AS RIGHT IN THEIR BELIEFS AS I AM IN MINE,heck for a non believer it's as easy as shooting fish in a barrel,as all they ever have to say is show me the money.I would believe that we see signs in our everyday lives that someone or something has a hand in certain aspects of our lives,but I as all the unbelievers out there would like to see something more ironclad to prove to us there is an existence.

no I don't believe that if enough people believe a team will win, that they will win. those underdog teams won because they played better than the favorites and the players made the plays needed to win.

AUTaxMan
12-01-2011, 12:35 AM
And that is fine. I understand that. I have no problem with someone believing the Bible is God-inspired based on faith. My problem comes when they say the Bible says so, so therefore it is.

That's faith. If you believe it's true, then you say that it is.

Star_Cards
12-01-2011, 12:35 AM
It is called free will. If God provided absolute, undeniable, unequivocal proof of his existence then there would be nothing but Christains. There would be no free will. There would be no choice in life. God did not create man to be a puppet, he created him to be an embodiment of love, joy and happiness. Giving us the right to choose our path in life is part of that.

If there was absolute proof that God is real then you could not be an athiest, I could not be agnostic and GBM could not be bigoted. We would all be Christians because our right to question and make decisions would be taken away by the undeniable truth.



Some are not exchanging ideas. There is a vast difference between intellectual discussion (which this thread started as) and back-handed insults and demeaning comments meant to affront people for their beliefs.

If there were 100% evidence of god there still would be free will. people do things when they know the consequences all the time. the same would not be any different. people know committing crimes are bad and people still commit them. people know having unprotected sex is riskier than using protection but people still do. I don't assume that people wouldn't still use free will if they new for sure that there was a god.

Theodor Madison
12-01-2011, 12:36 AM
No one is expected to believe, and No one has all the answers. But there is an answer for all questions. As there is an answer to this one. You are not expected to Know it unless you want to know the answer. The question is who do you know that has the answer?

Hilfiger1975
12-01-2011, 12:38 AM
Feels like i'm in a Batman movie with all these riddles...

spuds1961
12-01-2011, 12:45 AM
Feels like i'm in a Batman movie with all these riddles...

Don't worry Robin will show up in his tights and solve everything,Riddle me this Batman explain the existence of this God you believe in.

Hilfiger1975
12-01-2011, 12:46 AM
Don't worry Robin will show up in his tights and solve everything,Riddle me this Batman explain the existence of this God you believe in.
:winking0071:

spuds1961
12-01-2011, 01:02 AM
This is a question for the non-believers,What would you accept as proof that God does exist,just curious.

BigBerserker
12-01-2011, 02:08 AM
This is a question for the non-believers,What would you accept as proof that God does exist,just curious.

...besides coming down from Heaven, born of a virgin, and offering salvation to all...

habsheaven
12-01-2011, 09:03 AM
...besides coming down from Heaven, born of a virgin, and offering salvation to all...

That would convince no logical person today or 2,000 years ago. I am sure many teens have claimed to be virgins right up to the second the labour pains start. I know many people since have offered salvation to the world.

I want something GRAND. How about taking over the airwaves. Stating, I God, am going to make everyone levitate for 10 seconds in 1 minute. And then do it. :):

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 09:28 AM
[quote=gatorboymike;10720019
"The best way to stay ignorant forever is to have faith that you are wise."
- gatorboymike[/quote]


Church!! :love0030:

LeicesterBladex
12-01-2011, 09:40 AM
This is a question for the non-believers,What would you accept as proof that God does exist,just curious.

to get a skype call from a bloke whos sat on a cloud in the sky and tells me hes god ... then ill be the best christian ever

Hilfiger1975
12-01-2011, 09:43 AM
This is a question for the non-believers,What would you accept as proof that God does exist,just curious.
For me to actually win the Lottery...even though i don't play! :winking0071:

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 11:31 AM
That would convince no logical person today or 2,000 years ago. I am sure many teens have claimed to be virgins right up to the second the labour pains start. I know many people since have offered salvation to the world.

I want something GRAND. How about taking over the airwaves. Stating, I God, am going to make everyone levitate for 10 seconds in 1 minute. And then do it. :):

it comes back to what i have been saying since page 2 (i think). It is the difference between those who think they deserve proof and those that don't. You feel that you get to make demands of God if he wants the honor of your believe. He owes you something grand if he expects you to believe. Some people need that and some people don't. that is the biggest difference in those that believe and those that don't.

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 11:41 AM
it comes back to what i have been saying since page 2 (i think). It is the difference between those who think they deserve proof and those that don't. You feel that you get to make demands of God if he wants the honor of your believe. He owes you something grand if he expects you to believe. Some people need that and some people don't. that is the biggest difference in those that believe and those that don't.


I never ask God of who he is and what he does because he provides it for me every day. I do asks some of these jokers on here for proof of their outlandish claims.

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 11:46 AM
I never ask God of who he is and what he does because he provides it for me every day. I do asks some of these jokers on here for proof of their outlandish claims.

you claim to be a christian but if someone quotes the bible they are making outlandish claims? huh?

sanfran22
12-01-2011, 11:47 AM
you claim to be a christian but if someone quotes the bible they are making outlandish claims? huh?

My thoughts exactly. I think I'm done with this "joker" as it's all been hashed out plenty of times.....:bored:

habsheaven
12-01-2011, 12:01 PM
it comes back to what i have been saying since page 2 (i think). It is the difference between those who think they deserve proof and those that don't. You feel that you get to make demands of God if he wants the honor of your believe. He owes you something grand if he expects you to believe. Some people need that and some people don't. that is the biggest difference in those that believe and those that don't.

Let's get something straight. I DO NOT think I deserve anything. I just do not understand why a God that wants my honour and belief in Him cannot provide me with something a little more tangible than what has been provided to the world so far. I will do just fine believing in MYSELF. I can take Him or leave Him. Apparently He is the one calling the shots, so the ball is in His court.

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 12:04 PM
Let's get something straight. I DO NOT think I deserve anything. I just do not understand why a God that wants my honour and belief in Him cannot provide me with something a little more tangible than what has been provided to the world so far. I will do just fine believing in MYSELF. I can take Him or leave Him. Apparently He is the one calling the shots, so the ball is in His court.

ok, let's get something straight. your attitude is "i don't need God, if in fact he exists, which i don't think he does. But if he wants me to believe in him he better do something to make me"

gee, with a "i can take him or leave him" attitude, i can't imagine why God hasn't revealed himself to you yet.

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 12:07 PM
you claim to be a christian but if someone quotes the bible they are making outlandish claims? huh?

I have no problem with anyone quoting the bible or any other religious book of their chosing. People on both sides of the religious debate quoted the bible for their own purposes. However you have to take whatever book someone quotes for what it is. For example if I write a book and say donald duck is god all must bow down and worship him and if you don't you will be drowned in boiling water for eternity. If someone quotes that and says christanity is false you would laugh at them and say who gave them the authority to say so and ask for proof of their claim beside what's in the book. When you come back and say they cannot and or will not provide them any additional proof a neutral person would not be able to take them seriously. Again I am a christian but if a christian or non christian makes such a strong claim is is my right to demand proof. If they fail to provide it, they lose credibility in their argument.

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 12:10 PM
I have no problem with anyone quoting the bible or any other religious book of their chosing. People on both sides of the religious debate quoted the bible for their own purposes. However you have to take whatever book someone quotes for what it is. For example if I write a book and say donald duck is god all must bow down and worship him and if you don't you will be drowned in boiling water for eternity. If someone quotes that and says christanity is false you would laugh at them and say who gave them the authority to say so and ask for proof of their claim beside what's in the book. When you come back and say they cannot and or will not provide them any additional proof a neutral person would not be able to take them seriously. Again I am a christian but if a christian or non christian makes such a strong claim is is my right to demand proof. If they fail to provide it, they lose credibility in their argument.

and yet you, as a christian, see no difference in someone quoting the bible and someone writing their own book and quoting it. Let me ask you something if you are willing to answer it. Do you believe Jesus, as described in the bible, was the son of God?

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 12:17 PM
and yet you, as a christian, see no difference in someone quoting the bible and someone writing their own book and quoting it. Let me ask you something if you are willing to answer it. Do you believe Jesus, as described in the bible, was the son of God?


Yes I do. Your point??

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 12:20 PM
Yes I do. Your point??

no point, just asking. so, how does your belief that jesus was God's son match up with your belief that all religions are equal and all are avenues to heaven? Doesn't that go 180 degrees away from what jesus taught?

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 12:31 PM
no point, just asking. so, how does your belief that jesus was God's son match up with your belief that all religions are equal and all are avenues to heaven? Doesn't that go 180 degrees away from what jesus taught?


Again you are putting words in my mouth. How could I possibly know or believe that all religions are equal if I am not a religious expert? I will let one of our resident experts make that determination. I go with what works for me to get right by God. If what I do is right or wrong just like if what the next man does is right or wrong that is up to God to judge not anyone on SCF.

AUTaxMan
12-01-2011, 12:34 PM
Again you are putting words in my mouth. How could I possibly know or believe that all religions are equal if I am not a religious expert? I will let one of our resident experts make that determination. I go with what works for me to get right by God. If what I do is right or wrong just like if what the next man does is right or wrong that is up to God to judge not anyone on SCF.

You don't have to be an expert to have an informed opinion or belief. The principles you espouse related to religious relativism, while politically correct, are not the principles taught by Jesus.

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 12:35 PM
Again you are putting words in my mouth. How could I possibly know or believe that all religions are equal if I am not a religious expert? I will let one of our resident experts make that determination. I go with what works for me to get right by God. If what I do is right or wrong just like if what the next man does is right or wrong that is up to God to judge not anyone on SCF.

this is giving me a headache. you have claimed that only god can know whether one religion is right or wrong. You also claim to believe that jesus is the son of God. Jesus, as God's son, claims that he is the only way to god. So, if you believe that jesus is God's son then God has already answered your question. The only way for you to think that we can't know which religion is right is if you don't actually believe Jesus. I am just trying to wrap my mind around what it is you actually believe.

habsheaven
12-01-2011, 12:43 PM
ok, let's get something straight. your attitude is "i don't need God, if in fact he exists, which i don't think he does. But if he wants me to believe in him he better do something to make me"

gee, with a "i can take him or leave him" attitude, i can't imagine why God hasn't revealed himself to you yet.

Is God a petulent 4 year old? He sure sounds like it.

Forget me, and my attitude for just a second and answer this. According to Christians there are MORE people on this Earth (with good attitudes) that have it wrong than those that have it right. Why is it unreasonable to think that NOW it might be a good time to set the record straight?

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 12:46 PM
this is giving me a headache. you have claimed that only god can know whether one religion is right or wrong. You also claim to believe that jesus is the son of God. Jesus, as God's son, claims that he is the only way to god. So, if you believe that jesus is God's son then God has already answered your question. The only way for you to think that we can't know which religion is right is if you don't actually believe Jesus. I am just trying to wrap my mind around what it is you actually believe.


You are overanalyzing things. Go to God for all of your answers. If you come to SCF for religious advice and guidance you will become just as screwed up as some of these other jokers on here. :winking0071:

sanfran22
12-01-2011, 12:46 PM
Again you are putting words in my mouth. How could I possibly know or believe that all religions are equal if I am not a religious expert? I will let one of our resident experts make that determination. I go with what works for me to get right by God. If what I do is right or wrong just like if what the next man does is right or wrong that is up to God to judge not anyone on SCF.

He didn't put any words in your mouth. He was asking questions.
If you believe the Bible, you will know what religion is true. I go with what the Bible teaches to get right with God personally. You are right, God will be the one to ultimately judge, but He did leave us a roadmap.

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 12:47 PM
Is God a petulent 4 year old? He sure sounds like it.

Forget me, and my attitude for just a second and answer this. According to Christians there are MORE people on this Earth (with good attitudes) that have it wrong than those that have it right. Why is it unreasonable to think that NOW it might be a good time to set the record straight?

god isn't but someone with that attitude sure sounds like one.

while it might not be unreasonable, you are basically saying God needs to live in house with every human being every day. because if he came back and millions saw him but you didn't, you would still have to believe the testimony of an individual. and if he came back for years and then left, then immediately there would be those who had a right not to believe because he didn't show himself to them.

sanfran22
12-01-2011, 12:48 PM
You are overanalyzing things. Go to God for all of your answers. If you come to SCF for religious advice and guidance you will become just as screwed up as some of these other jokers on here. :winking0071:
Just make sure you are going to the one, true God. Otherwise your answers may be like what we are hearing from you.

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 12:49 PM
You are overanalyzing things. Go to God for all of your answers. If you come to SCF for religious advice and guidance you will become just as screwed up as some of these other jokers on here. :winking0071:

trust me, i'm not over thinking anything. i am not coming here for religious advice. I am trying to figure out what version of christianity you believe in. You believe in jesus but apparently you don't believe anything he said. I am very confused by this.

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 12:51 PM
Just make sure you are going to the one, true God. Otherwise your answers may be like what we are hearing from you.


I will know it is the one true God if he dosen't speak venom and hatred like I have heard from some of these clowns on here. :winking0071:

sanfran22
12-01-2011, 12:54 PM
I will know it is the one true God if he dosen't speak venom and hatred like I have heard from some of these clowns on here. :winking0071:

lol, define venom and hatred as you see it.....

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 12:57 PM
trust me, i'm not over thinking anything. i am not coming here for religious advice. I am trying to figure out what version of christianity you believe in. You believe in jesus but apparently you don't believe anything he said. I am very confused by this.


How could I or anyone else believe in christanity but not what jesus taught? Just because I don't spew venom, division and don't believe that my walk with God is any greater or less than another man's walk with God? Or is it because I am not Christaian enough for your liking? If I go out and burn Korans and call all muslims blood thirsty terrorists would that make me christian enough for you?

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 12:59 PM
lol, define venom and hatred as you see it.....


If you can't figure that out after being on P&R as long as you have nothing that I have to say will make any difference to you. :winking0071:

sanfran22
12-01-2011, 01:01 PM
If you can't figure that out after being on P&R as long as you have nothing that I have to say will make any difference to you. :winking0071:

Thanks for your typical dodge......:bored:

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 01:04 PM
How could I or anyone else believe in christanity but not what jesus taught? Just because I don't spew venom, division and don't believe that my walk with God is any greater or less than another man's walk with God? Or is it because I am not Christaian enough for your liking? If I go out and burn Korans and call all muslims blood thirsty terrorists would that make me christian enough for you?

wow, take it too far much? no, i just expect someone who calls themselves a christian to not call the teachings of jesus venom. You have basically said through this entire thing that you don't believe the things jesus said. You keep saying we can't know which religions are true or false even though jesus already answered that. You get offended if someone says islam is not the way to God and yet jesus himself says he is the only way to god.

so save us the violent rhetoric of your last sentence because it makes you appear much less intelligent then you are. Asking a christian to, oh my gosh, believe jesus, in no way equates to burning korans and labeling all muslims terrorists.

I have a couple of muslim friends. we each think the other is following a false version of God's path. and you know what, none of us have every been offended that the other one thinks that way. It is the natural progression of belief in the bible/koran you read.

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 01:12 PM
Thanks for your typical dodge......:bored:

Have you not been reading any of the post on here yours included or do you need me to go back through everything and summarize it for you?

sanfran22
12-01-2011, 01:15 PM
Have you not been reading any of the post on here yours included or do you need me to go back through everything and summarize it for you?

I specifically asked you for your definition. That is what I want, nothing more. as usual you dodge the question. Nevermind, it's not important.

AUTaxMan
12-01-2011, 01:17 PM
Have you not been reading any of the post on here yours included or do you need me to go back through everything and summarize it for you?

There has been no venom or hatred spewed by anyone in this thread, primarily because GBM's participation has been minimal. For the most part, it has been a civil discussion of opposing viewpoints, some more rational than others.

habsheaven
12-01-2011, 01:18 PM
god isn't but someone with that attitude sure sounds like one.

while it might not be unreasonable, you are basically saying God needs to live in house with every human being every day. because if he came back and millions saw him but you didn't, you would still have to believe the testimony of an individual. and if he came back for years and then left, then immediately there would be those who had a right not to believe because he didn't show himself to them.

I am not "basically saying anything". Perhaps you would take this stance. Personally, I would believe 7 billion people.

Have you ever considered just how evil Man must have been back then when He decided intervention was necessary? Can you honestly say we have behaved better in the last 2,000 years and therefore intervention isn't needed again?

sanfran22
12-01-2011, 01:22 PM
I am not "basically saying anything". Perhaps you would take this stance. Personally, I would believe 7 billion people.

Have you ever considered just how evil Man must have been back then when He decided intervention was necessary? Can you honestly say we have behaved better in the last 2,000 years and therefore intervention isn't needed again?

You are right, he sent a flood because of how bad it was. He promised to never do that again even though I believe it's probably worse now. He will intervene again, but that's gonna be the end.

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 01:25 PM
wow, take it too far much? no, i just expect someone who calls themselves a christian to not call the teachings of jesus venom. You have basically said through this entire thing that you don't believe the things jesus said. You keep saying we can't know which religions are true or false even though jesus already answered that. You get offended if someone says islam is not the way to God and yet jesus himself says he is the only way to god.

so save us the violent rhetoric of your last sentence because it makes you appear much less intelligent then you are. Asking a christian to, oh my gosh, believe jesus, in no way equates to burning korans and labeling all muslims terrorists.

I have a couple of muslim friends. we each think the other is following a false version of God's path. and you know what, none of us have every been offended that the other one thinks that way. It is the natural progression of belief in the bible/koran you read.

I'm glad that you neither offend nor have you been offended by your muslim friends. I am also glad that you and your friends are doing what you feel in your heart is right to get by god. However you have not converted to islam yet nor have your muslim friends have been converted to christanity yet by calling either religion false or trading insults. Let me know when any of your convert due to insult.

habsheaven
12-01-2011, 01:25 PM
You are right, he sent a flood because of how bad it was. He promised to never do that again even though I believe it's probably worse now. He will intervene again, but that's gonna be the end.

Look at that. I learnt something new today. I had no idea He made a promise to Man of this nature. Why all this talk of Armaggedon then?

sanfran22
12-01-2011, 01:30 PM
Look at that. I learnt something knew today. I had no idea He made a promise to Man of this nature. Why all this talk of Armaggedon then?

Armaggedon is different then a flood to wipe out man and basically start over. Armaggedon is going to be the end. It's good vs evil and evil is done. Then the believers will be welcomed to heaven and things will be the way they were originally intended to be.
Genesis 6:17; 9:11

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 01:31 PM
There has been no venom or hatred spewed by anyone in this thread, primarily because GBM's participation has been minimal. For the most part, it has been a civil discussion of opposing viewpoints, some more rational than others.


:sign0020: That's funny. Where is our good buddy at anyway? I'm sure that he would spin this discussion around with his viewpoints.

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 01:32 PM
I'm glad that you neither offend nor have you been offended by your muslim friends. I am also glad that you and your friends are doing what you feel in your heart is right to get by god. However you have not converted to islam yet nor have your muslim friends have been converted to christanity yet by calling either religion false or trading insults. Let me know when any of your convert due to insult.

and what reason would someone have to convert if all you told them was their path to God was just as right and valid as any other?

also, you continue to avoid the very real question you keep being asked. how do you mix the fact that you believe in jesus and yet seem to be offended by a large amount of what he says. How do you believe in jesus and yet believe completely against the idea that he is the only way to heaven?

sanfran22
12-01-2011, 01:34 PM
:sign0020: That's funny. Where is our good buddy at anyway? I'm sure that he would spin this discussion around with his viewpoints.

I would like you to directly point out what I, or anyone else beside GBM have said in this thread that was "venomous or hateful"....

habsheaven
12-01-2011, 01:35 PM
Armaggedon is different then a flood to wipe out man and basically start over. Armaggedon is going to be the end. It's good vs evil and evil is done. Then the believers will be welcomed to heaven and things will be the way they were originally intended to be.
Genesis 6:17; 9:11

Oh. So are you saying when He promised no more floods it was in the context of; no more warnings, next time I'm going to mean business?

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 01:41 PM
and what reason would someone have to convert if all you told them was their path to God was just as right and valid as any other?

also, you continue to avoid the very real question you keep being asked. how do you mix the fact that you believe in jesus and yet seem to be offended by a large amount of what he says. How do you believe in jesus and yet believe completely against the idea that he is the only way to heaven?


You ought to work for fox news the way you like to twist up words. I never said or suggested that I was offended by anything jesus said or did. He is who I follow. If someone is interested in christanity in asks me about it I will lead by example. I'm not going to come out and say be a christian because muslims suck. I will leave that type of reteric to the republican party and the drudge report. Don't you people already clown jehova's witnesses for going out trying to recruit people, and say they are not christian enough for your liking?

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 01:42 PM
I would like you to directly point out what I, or anyone else beside GBM have said in this thread that was "venomous or hateful"....


So you are completely ok with calling another man's walk with God false? So if someone called you fake you would be ok with that?

AUTaxMan
12-01-2011, 01:45 PM
You ought to work for fox news the way you like to twist up words. I never said or suggested that I was offended by anything jesus said or did. He is who I follow. If someone is interested in christanity in asks me about it I will lead by example. I'm not going to come out and say be a christian because muslims suck. I will leave that type of reteric to the republican party and the drudge report. Don't you people already clown jehova's witnesses for going out trying to recruit people, and say they are not christian enough for your liking?

JWs are not Christians. They are a cult that follows a religion that was invented about 100 years ago.

sanfran22
12-01-2011, 01:46 PM
Oh. So are you saying when He promised no more floods it was in the context of; no more warnings, next time I'm going to mean business?

No, no more floods to simply wipe out the earth and start over. Killing all breathing things. The end is a different.

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 01:46 PM
You ought to work for fox news the way you like to twist up words. I never said or suggested that I was offended by anything jesus said or did. He is who I follow. If someone is interested in christanity in asks me about it I will lead by example. I'm not going to come out and say be a christian because muslims suck. I will leave that type of reteric to the republican party and the drudge report. Don't you people already clown jehova's witnesses for going out trying to recruit people, and say they are not christian enough for your liking?

dude, reread this thread. no one is twisting anything. when someone said islam was a false religion, you went borderline pyscho. you repeatedly say that no one has any right to comment on another persons walk with god and in other threads you have said that you think all religions worship the same god and are equally viable alternatives. that goes completely against jesus. no one is twisting. you are so busy trying to be PC and accepting that you don't even realize where you have ended up in regards to your beliefs.

sanfran22
12-01-2011, 01:49 PM
So you are completely ok with calling another man's walk with God false? So if someone called you fake you would be ok with that?

If what they are saying is not Biblically sound, I try to point out what I find as errors in their statements and try to find out how they came to those conclusions.
I honestly don't care what anyone calls me, what I believe is what is in the Bible. Nothing more, nothing less.

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 01:59 PM
JWs are not Christians. They are a cult that follows a religion that was invented about 100 years ago.


I have spoken to several of them and also read some of their literature. They told me that they are. Who should I believe, you or someone who is actively in the religion? How did you get the authority to determine who is a real christian and who is not?

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 02:04 PM
If what they are saying is not Biblically sound, I try to point out what I find as errors in their statements and try to find out how they came to those conclusions.
I honestly don't care what anyone calls me, what I believe is what is in the Bible. Nothing more, nothing less.


And that is your right to do so. So my question is if you in one corner quoting your holy book saying that another man is fake, and the other man is in his corner calling you fake how is to one to determine who is right who is wrong? Ya'll seem to be having a hard enough of a time convincing habs that there is a God to start with let alone what religion he wants us to follow.

sanfran22
12-01-2011, 02:05 PM
And that is your right to do so. So my question is if you in one corner quoting your holy book saying that another man is fake, and the other man is in his corner calling you fake how is to one to determine who is right who is wrong? Ya'll seem to be having a hard enough of a time convincing habs that there is a God to start with let alone what religion he wants us to follow.

It's not our "job" to convince. We are called to witness and plant a seed. What happens after that is not up to us.

sanfran22
12-01-2011, 02:09 PM
I have spoken to several of them and also read some of their literature. They told me that they are. Who should I believe, you or someone who is actively in the religion? How did you get the authority to determine who is a real christian and who is not?

Read up on the watchtower to get info on JW. They are not Christian.

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 02:09 PM
It's not our "job" to convince. We are called to witness and plant a seed. What happens after that is not up to us.


And what kind of tree do you think is going to grow out of a seed of insults and bigotry?

sanfran22
12-01-2011, 02:10 PM
And what kind of tree do you think is going to grow out of a seed of insults and bigotry?

Again, where was the bigotry and insults?

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 02:12 PM
And what kind of tree do you think is going to grow out of a seed of insults and bigotry?

what kind of conversion will ever take place if we tell people whatever they believe is equal and fine what what everyone else believes? You realize just by saying you believe in jesus you are judging others right. jesus says very plainly that he is the ONLY way to God. so, by believing in him you are agreeing with him. even though you don't agree with him even though you say you believe in him...never mind, i'm confused again.

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 02:13 PM
Again, where was the bigotry and insults?

veggieman believes that if anyone says their religion is right and another is wrong, that equates to bigotry and insult.

sanfran22
12-01-2011, 02:15 PM
veggieman believes that if anyone says their religion is right and another is wrong, that equates to bigotry and insult.

I know, I'm just trying to pin him down to quote statements. He has a warped view of bigotry and insults IMO.

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 02:16 PM
what kind of conversion will ever take place if we tell people whatever they believe is equal and fine what what everyone else believes? You realize just by saying you believe in jesus you are judging others right. jesus says very plainly that he is the ONLY way to God. so, by believing in him you are agreeing with him. even though you don't agree with him even though you say you believe in him...never mind, i'm confused again.

Following Jesus works for me. That's all that I can be responsible for. I don't have time to scrutiunize what works or dosen't work for another man. I have neither a heaven nor hell to but him in.

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 02:22 PM
Following Jesus works for me. That's all that I can be responsible for. I don't have time to scrutiunize what works or dosen't work for another man. I have neither a heaven nor hell to but him in.

are you sure? because following jesus means believing he is the only way to heaven. there is none other. following jesus means living so counter to the culture that you will be persecuted for being different. Following jesus means not conforming to the pattern of the world. Following jesus means denying yourself and following him even if it isn't popular.
i do not know you outside of this forum. I do not know your life. I would have no problem guessing that you are a good person who lives a good moral life. However, i think you are so busy trying to be accepting and politically correct that you have missed the entire point of following jesus. you aren't even willing to say, despite being given numerous opportunities that you believe jesus is the only avenue to heaven.

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 02:53 PM
are you sure? because following jesus means believing he is the only way to heaven. there is none other. following jesus means living so counter to the culture that you will be persecuted for being different. Following jesus means not conforming to the pattern of the world. Following jesus means denying yourself and following him even if it isn't popular.
i do not know you outside of this forum. I do not know your life. I would have no problem guessing that you are a good person who lives a good moral life. However, i think you are so busy trying to be accepting and politically correct that you have missed the entire point of following jesus. you aren't even willing to say, despite being given numerous opportunities that you believe jesus is the only avenue to heaven.

I believe that following Jesus is MY way to heaven. I am the only one responsible for getting myself to heaven. So regardless of how you want to dance around what you or everyone else thinks is or is not the way is really irrellevant.

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 03:00 PM
I believe that following Jesus is MY way to heaven. I am the only one responsible for getting myself to heaven. So regardless of how you want to dance around what you or everyone else thinks is or is not the way is really irrellevant.

how am i dancing? i am talking about the words of jesus, not me.

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 03:04 PM
how am i dancing? i am talking about the words of jesus, not me.


So per the bible jesus said follow him. That is what I'm doing. You and your buddies seem to have a problem with the fact that I can follow him without being a fanboy.

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 03:09 PM
So per the bible jesus said follow him. That is what I'm doing. You and your buddies seem to have a problem with the fact that I can follow him without being a fanboy.

ok, so you want to take one quote from jesus but not all? wow, heaven forbid i be a "fanboy" of the God I believe in.

How exactly can you claim to follow jesus without being a fanboy? You can claim to believe in him but how can you follow him without being a "fanboy?" "if anyone would come after me he must deny himself and follow me." "no one comes to the father except through me" thats not me speaking, that's jesus.

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 03:24 PM
ok, so you want to take one quote from jesus but not all? wow, heaven forbid i be a "fanboy" of the God I believe in.

How exactly can you claim to follow jesus without being a fanboy? You can claim to believe in him but how can you follow him without being a "fanboy?" "if anyone would come after me he must deny himself and follow me." "no one comes to the father except through me" thats not me speaking, that's jesus.


I follow Jesus without being a religious fanboy and saying na na my religion is better than yours. I stopped thinking like that after I left elementary school. Too bad a lot of people havent.

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 03:30 PM
I follow Jesus without being a religious fanboy and saying na na my religion is better than yours. I stopped thinking like that after I left elementary school. Too bad a lot of people havent.

i'm sorry for you. i'm sorry that you think being passionate about god is wrong and a childish idea. i'm sorry that you think you can truly follow jesus without being a "fanboy." I challenge you to re-read the gospels and please explain to me how you think you can follow jesus the way you claim you do. if I am going to be accused of anything, i pray that people accuse me of being too passionate about my faith.

BigBerserker
12-01-2011, 03:35 PM
Oh. So are you saying when He promised no more floods it was in the context of; no more warnings, next time I'm going to mean business?

Genesis 9:8-11 tells of God's promise to man and woman that He will never flood the earth again due to our misbehavior. In fact, He will never punish us again for our wrong doings because the ultimate price of our atonement has already been paid for (through Jesus). Armageddon is a Hebrew word for a place on earth in Israel. The book of Revelation speaks about a great war there in the future, making this one of few prophecies in the Bible that have not yet been fulfilled. The descriptions of Armageddon can be interpreted in more ways than one (to say the least) but the point is that good eventually overcomes evil.

Habsheaven I know this thread originally started with you, so I would be glad to answer any religious questions you may have to the best of my knowledge.

BigBerserker
12-01-2011, 03:37 PM
I believe that following Jesus is MY way to heaven.

Following Jesus is the ONLY way to Heaven. Just clarifying that one up for you, not trying to condemn.

Hilfiger1975
12-01-2011, 03:41 PM
Following Jesus is the ONLY way to Heaven. Just clarifying that one up for you, not trying to condemn.
In your opinion...just clarifying that up for you...:winking0071:

Because now you are bashing other religions...

BigBerserker
12-01-2011, 03:45 PM
Have you ever considered just how evil Man must have been back then when He decided intervention was necessary? Can you honestly say we have behaved better in the last 2,000 years and therefore intervention isn't needed again?

I'm glad you brought this up! No, another intervention is not needed because if God were to do another one, it would conflict with the first one meaning the power of God on the cross was not enough of an atonement when really it was. Christ died once for all.

Secondly, yes man is still as evil and ignorant as he was 2,000 years ago. People are people. period. The Bible says in Ecclesiastes 1:9 there is nothing new under the sun. Have people become better car drivers over the years? NO, cars have become safer machines, and people still total them.

BigBerserker
12-01-2011, 03:47 PM
In your opinion...just clarifying that up for you...:winking0071:

Because now you are bashing other religions...

It's God's opinion actually because He said it. And how is correcting one's grammar bashing another's religion?

sanfran22
12-01-2011, 03:48 PM
In your opinion...just clarifying that up for you...:winking0071:

Because now you are bashing other religions...

It's not an opinion if you believe in what the Bible teaches.

Hilfiger1975
12-01-2011, 03:49 PM
It's not an opinion if you believe in what the Bible teaches.
You are wrong...nothing in the Bible is facts...so it's an opinion...

sanfran22
12-01-2011, 03:53 PM
You are wrong...nothing in the Bible is facts...so it's an opinion...

No, that's an opinion of yours. There are many things in the Bible that can be proven as fact.

Hilfiger1975
12-01-2011, 03:54 PM
Following Jesus is the ONLY way to Heaven. Just clarifying that one up for you, not trying to condemn.

I've quoted your post. You don't see in this post how you are bashing other religions? You are saying Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven which is an opinion and also by that statement you are saying all the other religions ways to get into heaven are wrong. This right here is the problem with people and religion. You get on a kick that your religion is the only right releigion in the whole world and then you make comments like this which means it. And in reality who don't have a single clue if you are right or wrong. And then after you gave your opinion you added a cute little "not trying to condemn" sentence which actually does mean just that...like i stated before worship whatever you want, but don't CONDEMN others for your beliefs; because in the end you don't have a fact to go by...

Hilfiger1975
12-01-2011, 03:55 PM
No, that's an opinion of yours. There are many things in the Bible that can be proven as fact.
Not what you guys are arguing about...what the Bibles teaches is opinion...nice deflecting, though...

sanfran22
12-01-2011, 03:56 PM
Not what you guys are arguing about...

Then you need to rephrase your statement of nothing in the Bible is a fact.
Do you need to keep editing your post?
You will find out if it is an opinion one day.

Hilfiger1975
12-01-2011, 03:58 PM
Then you need to rephrase your statement of nothing in the Bible is a fact.
Do you need to keep editing your post?
Yes, i do...

Hilfiger1975
12-01-2011, 03:59 PM
You will find out if it is an opinion one day.
We ALL will...

sanfran22
12-01-2011, 03:59 PM
We ALL will...

That I can agree on.

Hilfiger1975
12-01-2011, 04:03 PM
It's God's opinion actually because He said it. And how is correcting one's grammar bashing another's religion?
What color was Jesus, BTW? Did he look like a white man with a long beard?

mrveggieman
12-01-2011, 04:10 PM
What color was Jesus, BTW? Did he look like a white man with a long beard?


Good question. I would love to hear the debate on that one....

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 04:29 PM
Good question. I would love to hear the debate on that one....

not much of a debate. he most likely resembled what people from the middle east look like today seeing as how that is where he was born and lived

AUTaxMan
12-01-2011, 04:30 PM
I've quoted your post. You don't see in this post how you are bashing other religions? You are saying Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven which is an opinion and also by that statement you are saying all the other religions ways to get into heaven are wrong. This right here is the problem with people and religion. You get on a kick that your religion is the only right releigion in the whole world and then you make comments like this which means it. And in reality who don't have a single clue if you are right or wrong. And then after you gave your opinion you added a cute little "not trying to condemn" sentence which actually does mean just that...like i stated before worship whatever you want, but don't CONDEMN others for your beliefs; because in the end you don't have a fact to go by...

Do you understand that Christianity is by its very nature an exclusive religion, meaning that it teaches that all other religions are false?

BigBerserker
12-01-2011, 04:43 PM
What color was Jesus, BTW? Did he look like a white man with a long beard?

He was most likely anything but white. Probably had olive skin and a dark beard. It's irrelevant really. Back to your last post about me bashing other religions because I deny all others... that was your interpretation, not mine. But if you want to go down that road fine, let's think logically now. If there were more than one way to get to Heaven, then there would be no absolute truth. And God is absolute truth. If all roads lead to heaven, there would be no need for a God to save us. No Hell to turn from, and no daily relationship with a divine being. Everyone does think their religion is the only right one, true but what else can we believe? Christianity is exclusive.

meuandthelot
12-01-2011, 05:09 PM
Very interesting thread. You have to have faith!

I believe in a higher power, creation over 100% evolution(because it mysteriously halted) and due to the ancient text that exists.

The core principles of the Bible, even the Bible itself has withstood every attempt to destroy it, pretty powerful*to me anyway* . But most religions have correlations to one another, so I can not subscribe to only one teaching*in full faith*

Also, I have many questions myself which I've been trying to research.

-Why do we(so many)fully accept the King James bible? I have to believe some of it was tilted or biased due the King himself being behind the project.
-What documents are contained within the Vatican's 40 miles of storage? There has to be some incredible pieces given the history of Knights Templar, Rome, even freemasonary, et al.
---What has been destroyed :(
-The references in the bible to space gods, and them mating with the daughters of man.
Genesis 6-King James Version (KJV)? Plus many, many other very intriguing occurrences

Anyway..
Back to the original questions, which I thought I could help with/ give verses that may help someone glean an understanding but I really need to think a bit longer to give a neutral, non hypocritical, truly helpful reply.

AUTaxMan
12-01-2011, 05:14 PM
Very interesting thread. You have to have faith!

I believe in a higher power, creation over 100% evolution(because it mysteriously halted) and due to the ancient text that exists.

The core principles of the Bible, even the Bible itself has withstood every attempt to destroy it, pretty powerful*to me anyway* . But most religions have correlations to one another, so I can not subscribe to only one teaching*in full faith*

Also, I have many questions myself which I've been trying to research.

-Why do we(so many)fully accept the King James bible? I have to believe some of it was tilted or biased due the King himself being behind the project.
-What documents are contained within the Vatican's 40 miles of storage? There has to be some incredible pieces given the history of Knights Templar, Rome, even freemasonary, et al.
---What has been destroyed :(
-The references in the bible to space gods, and them mating with the daughters of man.
Genesis 6-King James Version (KJV)? Plus many, many other very intriguing occurrences

Anyway..
Back to the original questions, which I thought I could help with/ give verses that may help someone glean an understanding but I really need to think a bit longer to give a neutral, non hypocritical, truly helpful reply.

I don't give any particular weight to the King James translation. I believe there are better English translations out there that more closely follow the original texts. His was just the first.

habsheaven
12-01-2011, 05:20 PM
Genesis 9:8-11 tells of God's promise to man and woman that He will never flood the earth again due to our misbehavior. In fact, He will never punish us again for our wrong doings because the ultimate price of our atonement has already been paid for (through Jesus). Armageddon is a Hebrew word for a place on earth in Israel. The book of Revelation speaks about a great war there in the future, making this one of few prophecies in the Bible that have not yet been fulfilled. The descriptions of Armageddon can be interpreted in more ways than one (to say the least) but the point is that good eventually overcomes evil.

Habsheaven I know this thread originally started with you, so I would be glad to answer any religious questions you may have to the best of my knowledge.

I started this thread to try and get an understanding of why believers believe what they do, and why they do not question more of what they believe. I do not have any direct religious questions to ask at this time but I do appreciate you offering what you know about the different comments that come up (like the one i just quoted). :):

Hilfiger1975
12-01-2011, 05:29 PM
Do you understand that Christianity is by its very nature an exclusive religion, meaning that it teaches that all other religions are false?
Ya, do you realize how dumb that sounds?

Hilfiger1975
12-01-2011, 05:35 PM
He was most likely anything but white. Probably had olive skin and a dark beard. It's irrelevant really. Back to your last post about me bashing other religions because I deny all others... that was your interpretation, not mine. But if you want to go down that road fine, let's think logically now. If there were more than one way to get to Heaven, then there would be no absolute truth. And God is absolute truth. If all roads lead to heaven, there would be no need for a God to save us. No Hell to turn from, and no daily relationship with a divine being. Everyone does think their religion is the only right one, true but what else can we believe? Christianity is exclusive.
Talking to you is like reading the Bible...fully of parables...you realize every single thing i bolded in this post is opinion, right? I could go through history and tell you how "exclusive" christianity is, but honestly what's the point you already know...please don't blow smoke up my ™™™...

Hilfiger1975
12-01-2011, 05:36 PM
He was most likely anything but white. Probably had olive skin and a dark beard. It's irrelevant really. Back to your last post about me bashing other religions because I deny all others... that was your interpretation, not mine. But if you want to go down that road fine, let's think logically now. If there were more than one way to get to Heaven, then there would be no absolute truth. And God is absolute truth. If all roads lead to heaven, there would be no need for a God to save us. No Hell to turn from, and no daily relationship with a divine being. Everyone does think their religion is the only right one, true but what else can we believe? Christianity is exclusive.
Is sure is relevant it's just another false image of Christianity...and how they like teach and advertise garbage...

AUTaxMan
12-01-2011, 05:40 PM
Ya, do you realize how dumb that sounds?

Why do you think that sounds dumb? What is your reasoning?

Hilfiger1975
12-01-2011, 05:44 PM
Why do you think that sounds dumb? What is your reasoning?
Because they have no facts behind their reasoning. That's like me saying i'm Eminem's sons with no proof...Hitler had the same views about race...

Hilfiger1975
12-01-2011, 05:47 PM
Why do you think that sounds dumb? What is your reasoning?
I have "faith" that i'm not going to get ran over by a car ever in my life and i'm even going to follows the rules and not J-Walk or even do it while it's dark, but the sad thing is that's it's not a fact i could still get ran over tomorrow...

AUTaxMan
12-01-2011, 06:01 PM
Because they have no facts behind their reasoning. That's like me saying i'm Eminem's sons with no proof...Hitler had the same views about race...

You think Christianity's claim that it is the only true religion is "dumb" because that claim cannot be scientifically proven? Is that your reasoning?

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 06:01 PM
all major religions claim to be the exclusive way, no need to bash christianity as though it is the only one with that claim.

gatorboymike
12-01-2011, 08:07 PM
Very interesting thread. You have to have faith!

No we don't have to. Not if we actually care about the truth.


I believe in a higher power, creation over 100% evolution(because it mysteriously halted) and due to the ancient text that exists.

Oh joy, another vicious, bloodthirsty, screeching, frothing, flailing, wailing science-hater. Must resist the urge to invoke the spirits of Richard Feynman and Stephen Jay Gould to haunt you.

First of all, evolution did not "mysteriously halt." If you can say that, YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT EVOLUTION IS OR HOW IT WORKS. You may think you do, but you don't. I would tell you to go look it up, and not on some creationist schlock factory, but I highly doubt you will.

Second, even if evolution were not a valid explanation for the diversity of life, that does not automatically prove the Christian god exists.

Third, you think the fact that an ancient text exists proves its correctness? What kind of kindergarten reasoning is that? You realize, of course, there are many ancient texts that exist? Many of which are older than the Bible, and which are incompatible with the Bible? Are they all true? If I write "God does not exist" on a bar napkin, and it somehow stays intact until its discovery in the year 4011, does that make it true?


The core principles of the Bible, even the Bible itself has withstood every attempt to destroy it, pretty powerful*to me anyway* . But most religions have correlations to one another, so I can not subscribe to only one teaching*in full faith*

What core principles? The principles that killing and stealing are wrong? The Bible didn't invent those ideas. They long pre-date it, and the reason why those ideas have survived is because civilizations that did not value them destroyed themselves. Maybe the principle that an ancient Palestinian rabbi was a self-fathering supernatural being who sacrified himself to himself to appease himself to create a loophole in a rule he created? That's not even a principle, it's an unjustified and unjustifiable claim.

Hilfiger1975
12-01-2011, 08:10 PM
You think Christianity's claim that it is the only true religion is "dumb" because that claim cannot be scientifically proven? Is that your reasoning?
Did i say a single thing about scientifically proven? Is that your reasoning? Putting words in my mouth?

Hilfiger1975
12-01-2011, 08:13 PM
all major religions claim to be the exclusive way, no need to bash christianity as though it is the only one with that claim.
You need to tell that to all the "christians" then. I don't see another Religion in here trying to force feed beliefs, besides Christians...

gatorboymike
12-01-2011, 08:23 PM
Somebody asked what it would take to convince an atheist to believe in a god. Well, surely it would take something different to convince each individual atheist. A lot of the ones I've heard answer that question say they don't know, and I'll give the same answer. I don't know what it would take to convince me. But I can tell you two things for sure.

First, everything theists have thus far attempted to use as "proof" for their god's existence utterly, miserably, catastrophically fails. I can't tell you how many times I've heard rhetorical nonsense like the Kalam Cosmological Argument, the Teleological Argument, the Ontological Argument, the Pancakeological Argument, Pascal's Wager and other assorted junk food for the mind. None of that stuff convinced you*. You adopted it ex post facto as justification. So why do you expect it to convince me? Because you're ashamed of what actually convinced you? Well, if you haven't given that the consideration it deserves, it makes you a coward as well as a liar.

* "You" in this context meaning a theist in general who uses these arguments.

Second, if there is a god, and it is all-powerful and all-knowing, as the Abrahamic god is posited to be, then surely it knows what it would take to convince me of its existence and nature even if I don't know myself. Therefore, if it has not done so, we have only the following possibilities (and let's assume it's the Christian god, because that's the god people are arguing for):

1. God is unable to prove to me that he exists. If this is so, then he is not omnipotent.
2. God is unwilling to prove to me that he exists. If this is so, then he is malevolent for ensuring that I will go to hell.
3. God is willing and able to prove to me that he exists, has not yet done so, but will do so in the future. If this is so, then at the present, I still have no good reason to assume he exists. If and when this occurs, my stance will change, but not before then.
4. God is willing and able to prove to me that he exists, and has tried to, but has failed to communicate. If this is so, then he obviously has not done what it would take, but only resorted to insufficient means. And since he is all-knowing and all-powerful, he's really just making a half-hearted attempt so he can say, "Well, I tried, and it's your own fault you didn't get the message." In which case he is malevolent.
5. God does not exist.

These conditions only apply, of course, if the god in question is assumed to be all-knowing, all-powerful, and has my best interest in mind. Which, in the case of the Christian god, I have been told is true.

And for those of you who use the disappointed parent/ungrateful child analogy, need I remind you that your god's love is supposedly infinite, and he supposedly wants me to be saved. The arbitrary imposition of human characteristics and human limitations on this supposedly supernatural being is invalid.

meuandthelot
12-01-2011, 08:58 PM
Thank you Gatorboymike :)

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 09:05 PM
You need to tell that to all the "christians" then. I don't see another Religion in here trying to force feed beliefs, besides Christians...

feel free to show me where someone has tried to force feed their beliefs. i believe everything on here has been an answer to a question.

ensbergcollector
12-01-2011, 09:09 PM
gbm- i appreciate your post as it is one of the best laid out cases for an atheistic point of view. my hang up is that ultimately, it still results in the person making demands of God. The idea that if God's wants me to believe he owes it to me to make that happen.

again, we obviously end up on different sides of the coin and i do appreciate your post, not trying to debate,just sharing where my hang up is. thanks

meuandthelot
12-01-2011, 09:43 PM
No we don't have to. Not if we actually care about the truth.



Oh joy, another vicious, bloodthirsty, screeching, frothing, flailing, wailing science-hater. Must resist the urge to invoke the spirits of Richard Feynman and Stephen Jay Gould to haunt you.

First of all, evolution did not "mysteriously halt." If you can say that, YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT EVOLUTION IS OR HOW IT WORKS. You may think you do, but you don't. I would tell you to go look it up, and not on some creationist schlock factory, but I highly doubt you will.

Second, even if evolution were not a valid explanation for the diversity of life, that does not automatically prove the Christian god exists.

Third, you think the fact that an ancient text exists proves its correctness? What kind of kindergarten reasoning is that? You realize, of course, there are many ancient texts that exist? Many of which are older than the Bible, and which are incompatible with the Bible? Are they all true? If I write "God does not exist" on a bar napkin, and it somehow stays intact until its discovery in the year 4011, does that make it true?



What core principles? The principles that killing and stealing are wrong? The Bible didn't invent those ideas. They long pre-date it, and the reason why those ideas have survived is because civilizations that did not value them destroyed themselves. Maybe the principle that an ancient Palestinian rabbi was a self-fathering supernatural being who sacrified himself to himself to appease himself to create a loophole in a rule he created? That's not even a principle, it's an unjustified and unjustifiable claim.

__________________________________________________ ________

I was caught off guard by your ability to "Know" so much about me.

Pretty harsh and MANY absolute assumptions in your diatribe, but I'll pass along a few things because I'm not perfect nor do I think I know what you've actually studied, read, or what you absolutely believe.
Here- maybe some of this will interest you eventually:

John Allegro is intersting, as is Daniele Bolelli

Maybe you've studied, but the following is interesting when trying to piece our anscestory...

---Tianyuan man

---Turkey's Gobekli Tepe

---The Sumerians & their text

---Not to mention Hebrew(which is a guess, with some characters being both numbers and having alphabetical meaning) Latin & Greek, which is the setting for the Bible.

AUTaxMan
12-01-2011, 10:07 PM
Did i say a single thing about scientifically proven? Is that your reasoning? Putting words in my mouth?

I am not putting words in your mouth. I was trying to get you to clarify your reasoning for me. You think Christianity's claim that it is the only true religion is "dumb" because that claim cannot be supported by facts? Is THAT your reasoning?

Hilfiger1975
12-01-2011, 10:13 PM
I am not putting words in your mouth. I was trying to get you to clarify your reasoning for me. You think Christianity's claim that it is the only true religion is "dumb" because that claim cannot be supported by facts? Is THAT your reasoning?
Yes...

BigBerserker
12-02-2011, 02:32 AM
I started this thread to try and get an understanding of why believers believe what they do, and why they do not question more of what they believe. I do not have any direct religious questions to ask at this time but I do appreciate you offering what you know about the different comments that come up (like the one i just quoted). :):

No problem man, I feel were making progress here. My Christian faith demands effort on both my part, and God's. My part is to remain faithful (I don't mean ignorant) and His part is to remain just.

This ones for GBM. You remind me of me, just a few years ago. I read your story about the bar napkin remaining until the year 4011 and it kind of threw me off a little. Provided Earth lasts that long, and for some reason the Bible is non existent then could that really happen? Would people believe God does not exist because an old relic said so? Probably so! But then I wondered about the Bible today and thought- the Bible isn't true just because it so old...it's true because it has intrinsic value. It's stood the test of time, and reason. It's words are powerful and have not been directly disproved or known to show contradictions (bring out your artillery). Here's what this thread boils down to- it is just as difficult to prove God exists as it is to prove He does not exist. Therefore it requires faith (or lack of). GBM, I also have a defense for your 5 bullet points. I noticed not a single one showed an effort on your part but rather God trying to reveal Himself to you and the fifth point being He just flat out does not exist! I think you need to read James 4:8 for it says "Come near to God, and He will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded."

mrveggieman
12-02-2011, 09:34 AM
Hey has anyone read Proofs for the Existance of God by Renee Decartes? I read it in college and it bought up some good points. Probably not enought to convince a hard core atheists but some interesting food for thought.

Star_Cards
12-02-2011, 10:54 AM
feel free to show me where someone has tried to force feed their beliefs. i believe everything on here has been an answer to a question.

I view banning and keeping gay marriage banned as force feeding christian beliefs. That's just off the tip of my head, but a pretty major one. People think that it's wrong because they think the bible says it's wrong or they find it icky or for whatever reason. The thing I find wrong is that people have the nerve to think that everyone in this country follow christianity and should believe as they believe. One has every right to think homosexuality is wrong or something they aren't interested in pursuing whether they think it's a choice or an internal uncontrolable desire, but voting to force others to follow that religious belief as legislation is completely wrong.

Star_Cards
12-02-2011, 10:56 AM
all major religions claim to be the exclusive way, no need to bash christianity as though it is the only one with that claim.

I agree. I dislike all religions equally. although christianity is the major religion of where I live so it's usually discussed more.

Hilfiger1975
12-02-2011, 10:57 AM
i agree. I dislike all religions equally. Although christianity is the major religion of where i live so it's usually discussed more.
+1

habsheaven
12-02-2011, 10:57 AM
I view banning and keeping gay marriage banned as force feeding christian beliefs. That's just off the tip of my head, but a pretty major one. People think that it's wrong because they think the bible says it's wrong or they find it icky or for whatever reason. The thing I find wrong is that people have the nerve to think that everyone in this country follow christianity and should believe as they believe. One has every right to think homosexuality is wrong or something they aren't interested in pursuing whether they think it's a choice or an internal uncontrolable desire, but voting to force others to follow that religious belief as legislation is completely wrong.

I believe he was referring to posts on this thread specifically, not christians in everyday life.

Star_Cards
12-02-2011, 10:59 AM
Second, even if evolution were not a valid explanation for the diversity of life, that does not automatically prove the Christian god exists.


great point. It is rather confusing that there are only two options in most people's mind.

sanfran22
12-02-2011, 10:59 AM
I view banning and keeping gay marriage banned as force feeding christian beliefs. That's just off the tip of my head, but a pretty major one. People think that it's wrong because they think the bible says it's wrong or they find it icky or for whatever reason. The thing I find wrong is that people have the nerve to think that everyone in this country follow christianity and should believe as they believe. One has every right to think homosexuality is wrong or something they aren't interested in pursuing whether they think it's a choice or an internal uncontrolable desire, but voting to force others to follow that religious belief as legislation is completely wrong.

Christianity is not the only religion to disapprove of the gay lifestyle.

Star_Cards
12-02-2011, 11:00 AM
I believe he was referring to posts on this thread specifically, not christians in everyday life.

ah... I see. Although, I'm pretty sure we've had some posts where people in this thread have voiced their belief that gay marriage should not be legal.

Hilfiger1975
12-02-2011, 11:01 AM
Christianity is not the only religion to disapprove of the gay lifestyle.
ALL religions who disapprove of gay lifestyle is WRONG...do you feel better now? Have you passed the buck enough now? If you need to snitch on any other religions keep us informed...

AUTaxMan
12-02-2011, 11:06 AM
ALL religions who disapprove of gay lifestyle is WRONG.

WHY is it wrong?

mrveggieman
12-02-2011, 11:06 AM
Christianity is not the only religion to disapprove of the gay lifestyle.


I was debating gay marriage on another website with a guy who is a known atheist. I was telling him although consenting adults should be able to do as the wish I told him I don't morally agree with gay marriage. He asked why and I told him for religious reasons. He said what religion beside christanity has a problem with gays? I said judiasm and islam. He countered those all abrahamic religions so they pretty much follow all of the same customs. He then asked me if I could name any religions besides the big three that have a problem with gays. I was stumped. Does anyone know any religion beside the big three of judiasm, christanity and islam that has a problem with homosexuals or homosexuality?

Hilfiger1975
12-02-2011, 11:09 AM
WHY is it wrong?
Because no one on earth should be judged by another human being...that's why...now smoke that...:winking0071:

Hilfiger1975
12-02-2011, 11:11 AM
i was debating gay marriage on another website with a guy who is a known atheist. I was telling him although consenting adults should be able to do as the wish i told him i don't morally agree with gay marriage. He asked why and i told him for religious reasons. He said what religion beside christanity has a problem with gays? I said judiasm and islam. He countered those all abrahamic religions so they pretty much follow all of the same customs. He then asked me if i could name any religions besides the big three that have a problem with gays. I was stumped. Does anyone know any religion beside the big three of judiasm, christanity and islam that has a problem with homosexuals or homosexuality?
JW? From my understanding you can be homosexual you just can't act on your "urges?" which basically means no...

AUTaxMan
12-02-2011, 11:13 AM
Because no one on earth should be judged by another human being...that's why...now smoke that...:winking0071:

I am not judging their character.

Hilfiger1975
12-02-2011, 11:15 AM
I am not judging their character.
Judging, period...are you a lawyer in real life, be honest...

mrveggieman
12-02-2011, 11:19 AM
jw?


Despite how mrtaxman feels jehovas witnesses consider themself as christians. Regardless if they are not real christians in mrtaxman's they still come from the judeau-christian family of religions.

ensbergcollector
12-02-2011, 11:23 AM
I view banning and keeping gay marriage banned as force feeding christian beliefs. That's just off the tip of my head, but a pretty major one. People think that it's wrong because they think the bible says it's wrong or they find it icky or for whatever reason. The thing I find wrong is that people have the nerve to think that everyone in this country follow christianity and should believe as they believe. One has every right to think homosexuality is wrong or something they aren't interested in pursuing whether they think it's a choice or an internal uncontrolable desire, but voting to force others to follow that religious belief as legislation is completely wrong.

i know this has been touched on already, but all major religions are opposed to gay marriage. Let's see how gay marriage does in islamic led countries. not saying that to defend christianity, but at least people can spread the dislike of religion. :winking0071:

mrveggieman
12-02-2011, 11:27 AM
i know this has been touched on already, but all major religions are opposed to gay marriage. Let's see how gay marriage does in islamic led countries. not saying that to defend christianity, but at least people can spread the dislike of religion. :winking0071:


As per my previous post only the big 3 (christanity, judiasm, islam) have a problem with homosexuality. Do you know of any others that prohibit or restrict homosexuality?

ensbergcollector
12-02-2011, 11:32 AM
hinduism is usually split on the subject. some see it as completely ok while some see it the opposite. It is not forbidden in most texts but a large number of followers are still opposed to it. what other religions are we referring to? don't the big three and hinduism make up probably 90% of religion?

mrveggieman
12-02-2011, 11:40 AM
hinduism is usually split on the subject. some see it as completely ok while some see it the opposite. It is not forbidden in most texts but a large number of followers are still opposed to it. what other religions are we referring to? don't the big three and hinduism make up probably 90% of religion?


I was just wondering if any of the worlds religions besides the big three explicitly prohibit homosexuality in any of their texts.

ensbergcollector
12-02-2011, 11:42 AM
I was just wondering if any of the worlds religions besides the big three explicitly prohibit homosexuality in any of their texts.

let me know what religions you are thinking of and I will do some research

mrveggieman
12-02-2011, 11:51 AM
let me know what religions you are thinking of and I will do some research

Any religion besides christanity, judiasm and islam.

AUTaxMan
12-02-2011, 11:53 AM
Judging, period...are you a lawyer in real life, be honest...

yes

Hilfiger1975
12-02-2011, 11:56 AM
yes
Hehe...i could tell from your posting style and questions...:winking0071:

ensbergcollector
12-02-2011, 12:03 PM
Any religion besides christanity, judiasm and islam.

no, i understand you want something other than those three, my question is, other than those three and hinduism, specifically which religions would you be curious about?

mrveggieman
12-02-2011, 12:13 PM
no, i understand you want something other than those three, my question is, other than those three and hinduism, specifically which religions would you be curious about?


Ok since you mentioned mentioned what do hindiusm as well as budhism say about homosexuality?

ensbergcollector
12-02-2011, 12:45 PM
there are three sects of buhdism. 1 is for those to entire monasteries and therefore be against all sexual acts. Buhda is recorded as saying he is against the ordination of monks who have expressed a homosexual desire.

the second type it is not spoken against specifically but it has been frowned upon mostly due to cultural leanings. From a religious standpoint they have no opposition to it.

for the third group, the dalai lama speaks of it being unnatural and in 1997 said anything other than normal heterosexual sex is prohibited.

habsheaven
12-02-2011, 01:07 PM
Where can one find scripture explaining the existence of all the other Races? Have any of the believers ever given that some thought?

Hilfiger1975
12-02-2011, 01:11 PM
Where can one find scripture explaining the existence of all the other Races? Have any of the believers ever given that some thought?
It's in the Bible! :rolleyes:

You just have to have "faith" to "see it" in the Bible...:rolleyes:

mrveggieman
12-02-2011, 01:13 PM
I don't know the exact verses but I would look them up if asked but the book of morman does refer to people by their race. It also includes some racially charged verses. That is one reason why I...

AUTaxMan
12-02-2011, 01:17 PM
Where can one find scripture explaining the existence of all the other Races? Have any of the believers ever given that some thought?

The Bible says that God scattered people all over the Earth and confused their languages as punishment for the tower of babel. I think that's about as much scriptural reference as you're going to get for their being different kinds of peoples. I imagine over centuries, races developed based on genetic pools and climate conditions. Other than that, the Bible wasn't intended to be a complete history of the world or an encyclopedia.

habsheaven
12-02-2011, 01:17 PM
Didn't I just ask? :rolleyes:

habsheaven
12-02-2011, 01:22 PM
The Bible says that God scattered people all over the Earth and confused their languages as punishment for the tower of babel. I think that's about as much scriptural reference as you're going to get for their being different kinds of peoples. I imagine over centuries, races developed based on genetic pools and climate conditions. Other than that, the Bible wasn't intended to be a complete history of the world or an encyclopedia.

Okay, that's a start. Guess I will have to google this "tower of Babel".

mrveggieman
12-02-2011, 01:33 PM
Didn't I just ask? :rolleyes:


Well since you asked....

2 Nephi 5:21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

mrveggieman
12-02-2011, 01:46 PM
Also check this article out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people_and_early_Mormonism

habsheaven
12-02-2011, 01:49 PM
Well since you asked....

2 Nephi 5:21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

What am I reading here? God made them Black so they wouldn't be enticing to His White people?

mrveggieman
12-02-2011, 01:54 PM
What am I reading here? God made them Black so they wouldn't be enticing to His White people?


That's what some mormans believe. Some of them also belive being black is is the curse of ham. Some christians such as jerry fallwell who was a well known segregationist also have the same train of thought. You can also look at the church in kentucky as another example. SMH.

gatorboymike
12-02-2011, 05:31 PM
This ones for GBM. You remind me of me, just a few years ago. I read your story about the bar napkin remaining until the year 4011 and it kind of threw me off a little. Provided Earth lasts that long, and for some reason the Bible is non existent then could that really happen? Would people believe God does not exist because an old relic said so? Probably so! But then I wondered about the Bible today and thought- the Bible isn't true just because it so old...it's true because it has intrinsic value. It's stood the test of time, and reason. It's words are powerful and have not been directly disproved or known to show contradictions (bring out your artillery).

Well then you get my point about how stupid humans are in general. We'd be just as stupid to accept an ancient document at face value if it said there was no god as we would be to accept it if it said there was one.

And there's no such thing as intrinsic value. Things only have the value we give to them. Any morals or lessons the Bible has to teach are not valuable because they come from the Bible, they're valuable because they help you get along in real life. And by the way, there are hundreds of contradictions. Go and look them up. I know you guys are in the habit of apologetic wheedling and excuse-making, trying to make contradictions look like they're not contradictions, but, well, that's just lying to yourselves and each other.


Here's what this thread boils down to- it is just as difficult to prove God exists as it is to prove He does not exist. Therefore it requires faith (or lack of). GBM, I also have a defense for your 5 bullet points. I noticed not a single one showed an effort on your part but rather God trying to reveal Himself to you and the fifth point being He just flat out does not exist! I think you need to read James 4:8 for it says "Come near to God, and He will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded."

No. It's impossible to prove something does not exist. To do that, you'd have to know the entire contents of the entire universe, which we cannot do. It's theoretically possible to prove there is a god. And if there is a god, and it is all-powerful, then it by definition could prove it exists.

Are you trying to say that having faith is no different from not having faith? That's like saying having money is no different from not having money.

And if there is an all-powerful god, what possible effort on my part, me as the pathetically small and limited primate that I am, could compare to any effort on its part? Do you mean to say that your god won't love me unless I love it more than it loves me? Sounds like my dad. And is it any wonder I haven't had anything to do with him in years?

AUTaxMan
12-02-2011, 05:40 PM
No. It's impossible to prove something does not exist. To do that, you'd have to know the entire contents of the entire universe, which we cannot do. It's theoretically possible to prove there is a god. And if there is a god, and it is all-powerful, then it by definition could prove it exists.

Are you trying to say that having faith is no different from not having faith? That's like saying having money is no different from not having money.

And if there is an all-powerful god, what possible effort on my part, me as the pathetically small and limited primate that I am, could compare to any effort on its part? Do you mean to say that your god won't love me unless I love it more than it loves me? Sounds like my dad. And is it any wonder I haven't had anything to do with him in years?

So it's possible that God exists, but you just don't believe that He does?

BigBerserker
12-02-2011, 08:24 PM
Okay, that's a start. Guess I will have to google this "tower of Babel".

Read Genesis 11:1-9. www.biblegateway.com is an excellent site for looking up scripture and includes many translations (if not all).

BigBerserker
12-02-2011, 10:35 PM
No. It's impossible to prove something does not exist. To do that, you'd have to know the entire contents of the entire universe, which we cannot do. It's theoretically possible to prove there is a god. And if there is a god, and it is all-powerful, then it by definition could prove it exists.

Are you trying to say that having faith is no different from not having faith? That's like saying having money is no different from not having money.

And if there is an all-powerful god, what possible effort on my part, me as the pathetically small and limited primate that I am, could compare to any effort on its part? Do you mean to say that your god won't love me unless I love it more than it loves me? Sounds like my dad. And is it any wonder I haven't had anything to do with him in years?

I have to think on this one for a while. I assure you God is interested in a personal relationship with all who follow Him. To prove His existence is done on a personal level, within our hearts. I suggest you give it a try- it couldn't hurt.

gatorboymike
12-03-2011, 01:59 PM
So it's possible that God exists, but you just don't believe that He does?

Yes.

It's also possible that flying pink chihuahuas live on Jupiter, but I don't believe that either.

gatorboymike
12-03-2011, 02:03 PM
I have to think on this one for a while. I assure you God is interested in a personal relationship with all who follow Him. To prove His existence is done on a personal level, within our hearts. I suggest you give it a try- it couldn't hurt.

You think I haven't tried that? I gave that a try a long time ago, and guess what, nothing happened. I know what you're going to say next, so go ahead and say it. I've already got my rebuttal to that loaded into the cannon.

In your heart? So if I were to give you a chest X-ray, I'd see god in there? Sorry, but that is insufficient. Actual proof is actual proof, that you can clearly show and demonstrate to anyone else whether they want to accept it or not. Your feelings are not proof, and they are utterly worthless to anyone but yourself. To quote popular YouTube user AronRa, "If you can't show it, then you don't know it, and you shouldn't say that you do." You're basically saying you have to already believe in order to begin to believe, or that you have to really, really want it to be true in order for it to appear true. That's just lying to yourself. Telling yourself something is true over and over again does not actually make it true.

AUTaxMan
12-03-2011, 03:14 PM
Yes.

It's also possible that flying pink chihuahuas live on Jupiter, but I don't believe that either.

So you're really an agnostic, not an atheist.

BigBerserker
12-03-2011, 07:04 PM
You think I haven't tried that? I gave that a try a long time ago, and guess what, nothing happened. I know what you're going to say next, so go ahead and say it. I've already got my rebuttal to that loaded into the cannon.

In your heart? So if I were to give you a chest X-ray, I'd see god in there? Sorry, but that is insufficient. Actual proof is actual proof, that you can clearly show and demonstrate to anyone else whether they want to accept it or not. Your feelings are not proof, and they are utterly worthless to anyone but yourself. To quote popular YouTube user AronRa, "If you can't show it, then you don't know it, and you shouldn't say that you do." You're basically saying you have to already believe in order to begin to believe, or that you have to really, really want it to be true in order for it to appear true. That's just lying to yourself. Telling yourself something is true over and over again does not actually make it true.

Well I'm sorry to hear it didn't work out for you. I don't know anything about you really. I'm curious to know what your rebuttal is. Go ahead, fire the cannon. As for the X-Ray comment, I hope that was sarcasm. Does AronRa mean if we cant see something then we cannot know it? Or does everything have to be proven in a laboratory for it to be true?

gatorboymike
12-05-2011, 05:05 PM
So you're really an agnostic, not an atheist.

Hoo boy, I'm not getting into that one again. Let's just say I think you need to look up the definitions of the words...and not from a creationist website. And you need to realize that even if I stopped using the word atheist to describe myself, that would not bring me one step closer to becoming a Christian.

gatorboymike
12-05-2011, 05:06 PM
Well I'm sorry to hear it didn't work out for you. I don't know anything about you really. I'm curious to know what your rebuttal is. Go ahead, fire the cannon. As for the X-Ray comment, I hope that was sarcasm. Does AronRa mean if we cant see something then we cannot know it? Or does everything have to be proven in a laboratory for it to be true?

Uh, my rebuttal is: I don't have any good reason to believe there is a god, therefore I do not. I don't know how to make it any simpler.

The X-ray comment was sarcastic if your heart comment was metaphorical.

No he doesn't, that's a strawman argument.

And not necessarily, but it sure helps.

AUTaxMan
12-05-2011, 05:42 PM
Hoo boy, I'm not getting into that one again. Let's just say I think you need to look up the definitions of the words...and not from a creationist website. And you need to realize that even if I stopped using the word atheist to describe myself, that would not bring me one step closer to becoming a Christian.

So, what are your thoughts on this quote from Bertrand Russell?

"That man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labors of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of man's achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins -- all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul's salvation henceforth be safely built."

gatorboymike
12-05-2011, 05:47 PM
So, what are your thoughts on this quote from Bertrand Russell?

"That man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labors of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and that the whole temple of man's achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins -- all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul's salvation henceforth be safely built."

Sounds like he's saying that religion provides a comforting escape from and denial of the unfortunate truths of life on earth, and that religion can only survive by providing a comforting escape from and denial of the unfortunate truths of life on earth. And that I quite agree with.