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OnePimpTiger
12-08-2011, 08:49 PM
Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695/documents-atf-used-fast-and-furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/)


Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation "Fast and Furious" to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.

In Fast and Furious, ATF secretly encouraged gun dealers to sell to suspected traffickers for Mexican drug cartels to go after the "big fish." But ATF whistleblowers told CBS News and Congress it was a dangerous practice called "gunwalking," and it put thousands of weapons on the street. Many were used in violent crimes in Mexico. Two were found at the murder scene of a U.S. Border Patrol agent.

ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information...

...Several gun dealers who cooperated with ATF told CBS News and Congressional investigators they only went through with suspicious sales because ATF asked them to.

Sometimes it was against the gun dealer's own best judgment.

In April, 2010 a licensed gun dealer cooperating with ATF was increasingly concerned about selling so many guns. "We just want to make sure we are cooperating with ATF and that we are not viewed as selling to the bad guys," writes the gun dealer to ATF Phoenix officials, "(W)e were hoping to put together something like a letter of understanding to alleviate concerns of some type of recourse against us down the road for selling these items."

ATF's group supervisor on Fast and Furious David Voth assures the gun dealer there's nothing to worry about. "We (ATF) are continually monitoring these suspects using a variety of investigative techniques which I cannot go into detail."

Two months later, the same gun dealer grew more agitated.

"I wanted to make sure that none of the firearms that were sold per our conversation with you and various ATF agents could or would ever end up south of the border or in the hands of the bad guys. I guess I am looking for a bit of reassurance that the guns are not getting south or in the wrong hands...I want to help ATF with its investigation but not at the risk of agents (sic) safety because I have some very close friends that are US Border Patrol agents in southern AZ as well as my concern for all the agents (sic) safety that protect our country."

"It's like ATF created or added to the problem so they could be the solution to it and pat themselves on the back," says one law enforcement source familiar with the facts. "It's a circular way of thinking."

The Justice Department and ATF declined to comment. ATF officials mentioned in this report did not respond to requests from CBS News to speak with them.

AUTaxMan
12-08-2011, 11:01 PM
this was completely obvious from the beginning

OnePimpTiger
12-10-2011, 11:57 PM
How come every time I post an update on this, none of the Obama fans care to comment? And in general, there is very little interest in this story. Maybe it's because I pay more attention to the gun issue than most, but this is a big story to me and should be a huge black eye on the administration. Guns allowed to be bought and supplied to the Mexican drug wars and have been linked to the death of US federal agents all to push a political agenda and no one seems to care. This basically undermines Obama's whole argument that American guns are fueling the Mexican cartels...if they are, it's because his administration is encouraging them.

meuandthelot
12-11-2011, 03:31 PM
Agree, the big issues/abuse of power via highly illegal elaborate schemes to gain clout, regulations in an area gets filed under "Conspiracy theorists" "Tinhats"

Nothing to see here, doesn't affect us...
move along :(

Star_Cards
12-11-2011, 09:12 PM
This operation couldn't have sounded like a bigger piece of garbage from the start. I'm not sure what the thinking was with this one.

pghin08
12-12-2011, 10:01 AM
I think we may actually see the end of Eric Holder.

mrveggieman
12-12-2011, 10:11 AM
How come every time I post an update on this, none of the Obama fans care to comment? And in general, there is very little interest in this story. Maybe it's because I pay more attention to the gun issue than most, but this is a big story to me and should be a huge black eye on the administration. Guns allowed to be bought and supplied to the Mexican drug wars and have been linked to the death of US federal agents all to push a political agenda and no one seems to care. This basically undermines Obama's whole argument that American guns are fueling the Mexican cartels...if they are, it's because his administration is encouraging them.


This is indeed wrong. However if you think that gov't corruption and illegal deals only started with the obama administration then you got a lot to learn.....

AUTaxMan
12-12-2011, 10:42 AM
This is indeed wrong. However if you think that gov't corruption and illegal deals only started with the obama administration then you got a lot to learn.....

Not sure where he said he believed that.

AUTaxMan
12-12-2011, 10:43 AM
I think we may actually see the end of Eric Holder.

Not as long as Obama is President. Holder is the perfect AG for his policies.

mrveggieman
12-12-2011, 10:45 AM
Not sure where he said he believed that.


I don't think he believes that either but to suggest that this is only an Obama problem is just plain wrong.

AUTaxMan
12-12-2011, 11:03 AM
I don't think he believes that either but to suggest that this is only an Obama problem is just plain wrong.

He wasn't suggesting that. Obama and his corruption are manifested through FAF is the topic. He was staying on point. You are deflecting.

pghin08
12-12-2011, 11:16 AM
Not as long as Obama is President. Holder is the perfect AG for his policies.

I'm not sure Obama will have a say in this matter. Holder is looking almost criminal at this point.

AUTaxMan
12-12-2011, 11:24 AM
I'm not sure Obama will have a say in this matter. Holder is looking almost criminal at this point.

Do you think Obama cares about that? Obama isn't going to fire him, and Congress won't impeach him.

pghin08
12-12-2011, 11:38 AM
Do you think Obama cares about that? Obama isn't going to fire him, and Congress won't impeach him.

I think Holder will resign (under pressure from leading Dems). The more that comes out, the more culpable/ignorant he looks.

AUTaxMan
12-12-2011, 11:41 AM
I think Holder will resign (under pressure from leading Dems). The more that comes out, the more culpable/ignorant he looks.

No. He hasn't been criticized one bit by the Dems. He was doing their bidding. What makes you think they would start now?

pghin08
12-12-2011, 12:18 PM
No. He hasn't been criticized one bit by the Dems. He was doing their bidding. What makes you think they would start now?

Because this is a huge issue, and it's easier to use Holder as the fall guy (deservedly) than to accept full-scale responsibility

OnePimpTiger
12-12-2011, 08:21 PM
This is indeed wrong. However if you think that gov't corruption and illegal deals only started with the obama administration then you got a lot to learn.....

You're right...since it has happened before, it's ok for it to happen now.

In other news, murder, rape, and burglary are now acceptable, as someone else did it first.

duane1969
12-12-2011, 09:22 PM
This is indeed wrong. However if you think that gov't corruption and illegal deals only started with the obama administration then you got a lot to learn.....

Who said that?

Is this always going to be the position of defense for Obama. It's OK if I do something wrong, stupid or deceitful because someone else did it before me.

I repeat. So much for CHANGE.

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/726/obamachangenope.jpg

meuandthelot
12-15-2011, 09:26 PM
Listening to the hearings offered some decent insight, and a glimpse as to where this will end based on Dem or Rep. control.
Issa was strong throughout.

Oh yeah..
The John Mitchell reference while Holder was stonewalling, sidetalking was classic.