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View Full Version : Girl scout launches cookie boycot after inclusion of transgendered child



mrveggieman
01-12-2012, 07:58 AM
Your thoughts.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/11/girl-scout-cookie-boycott-transgender_n_1199260.html

duane1969
01-12-2012, 08:15 AM
What qualifies the child as transgendered? Because he dresses like a girl does not make him a girl, it makes him a cross-dresser.


Montoya's mother Felisha Archuleta defended her daughter to ABC, saying, "I believe he was born in the wrong body...no one would know he's a boy unless they pulled his pants down."



Even the mom refers to the child as "he".

Little boys who wear little girl clothes are not little girls. He should not be in Girl Scouts.

habsheaven
01-12-2012, 08:51 AM
What qualifies the child as transgendered? Because he dresses like a girl does not make him a girl, it makes him a cross-dresser.

Even the mom refers to the child as "he".

Little boys who wear little girl clothes are not little girls. He should not be in Girl Scouts.

The children in these situations identify themselves as the opposite gender. THAT is what qualifies them as such. It has nothing to do with what they are wearing. That is such an IGNORANT statement to make.

duane1969
01-12-2012, 08:58 AM
The children in these situations identify themselves as the opposite gender. THAT is what qualifies them as such. It has nothing to do with what they are wearing. That is such an IGNORANT statement to make.

Clothes do not define the gender. Calling yourself a girl does not make you a girl. It's not ignorant, it is FACT.

habsheaven
01-12-2012, 09:15 AM
Clothes do not define the gender. Calling yourself a girl does not make you a girl. It's not ignorant, it is FACT.

I didn't say clothes define the gender. Your self-image defines your gender. To believe that the body you are born in defines your gender is outdated and ignorant in today's world. The world is a very complex place and people have to stop pigeon-holing everyone into their antiquated categories.

Star_Cards
01-12-2012, 09:34 AM
hmm... I'm not sure where I stand on this. I think it's kind of like when a girl wants to be on a men's sports team. Usually they allow it or at least it's not all that uncommon. I get that they have boy scouts and girl scouts but they are catered to certain aspects. Boy Scouts is probably 75% about outdoor stuff. There are a lot of boys (transgender and not) who don;t like that stuff and there are a lot of girls who do. I'm not sure what the girl scouts actually do, but I don't think they are as rugged as boy scouts as far as yearly summer camp and camping trips and learning about knots and survival and such. Maybe if a girl wants to do that she should be allowed in. I get that there are issues when they get older on the sexual side of things, but it's not like girls and boys aren't integrated in all other aspects of things.

I'm actually trying to think about how I would have felt when I was in scouts if a girl tried to join. I'm not sure how I would have reacted. I'd bet that a lot of my fellow scouts would have not liked it. I can't say that I would or wouldn't have as I'm not sure.

I don't know. I'm not exactly sure how to handle issues like transgender children exactly but to me if the girls are wondering why this boy is in their troop (or whatever the girl scouts call them) maybe just tell them the truth. I think they can handle it. Besides, the girls in the troop seem to be okay with it. The boycott is coming from someone who is in a completely different state.

the scouts is about growing and learning and things like that. Why is it bad for these girls to learn that there are boys out there like this kid and that it's okay to accept him for who he is.

this all being said I also can see a few rational arguments against him joining so I'm not sure. Although if the kids in his troop have no issue then it shouldn't be an issue to a kid in california when the troop this boy is in is in Colorado.

Star_Cards
01-12-2012, 09:37 AM
I didn't say clothes define the gender. Your self-image defines your gender. To believe that the body you are born in defines your gender is outdated and ignorant in today's world. The world is a very complex place and people have to stop pigeon-holing everyone into their antiquated categories.

well said.

I was ready some of the comments in that article. One woman said "If you have a penis, you go to Boy Scouts, no penis - Girl Scouts." I found that to be a bit simplistic even with groups that have divisions being defined by "girl" and "boy".

duane1969
01-12-2012, 10:08 AM
I didn't say clothes define the gender. Your self-image defines your gender. To believe that the body you are born in defines your gender is outdated and ignorant in today's world. The world is a very complex place and people have to stop pigeon-holing everyone into their antiquated categories.

That's funny. It is antiquated to call someone a boy because they have boy parts or a girl because they have girl parts. LOL

Someone should inform the government that they are using antiquated categories when they issue birth certificates and driver's licenses.

Is it also antiquated to call white people white because their skin is white? What if they feel black inside? Is it OK for them to apply for college grants for blacks, join the NAACP and talk about how much Rosa Parks did for their rights?

mrveggieman
01-12-2012, 10:12 AM
That's funny. It is antiquated to call someone a boy because they have boy parts or a girl because they have girl parts. LOL

Someone should inform the government that they are using antiquated categories when they issue birth certificates and driver's licenses.

Is it also antiquated to call white people white because their skin is white? What if they feel black inside? Is it OK for them to apply for college grants for blacks, join the NAACP and talk about how much Rosa Parks did for their rights?


If Herman Cain had his way he would no longer be indentified as Black. :sign0020:

duane1969
01-12-2012, 10:19 AM
If Herman Cain had his we he would no longer be indentified as Black. :sign0020:

LOL :smokin:

habsheaven
01-12-2012, 10:26 AM
That's funny. It is antiquated to call someone a boy because they have boy parts or a girl because they have girl parts. LOL

Someone should inform the government that they are using antiquated categories when they issue birth certificates and driver's licenses.

Is it also antiquated to call white people white because their skin is white? What if they feel black inside? Is it OK for them to apply for college grants for blacks, join the NAACP and talk about how much Rosa Parks did for their rights?

If you cannot grasp the concept of what I am saying that's fine. Afterall, I do not believe in miracles.

duane1969
01-12-2012, 10:34 AM
If you cannot grasp the concept of what I am saying that's fine. Afterall, I do not believe in miracles.

No need to be rude. If physical aspects do not define what a person is then that should apply to all physical aspects, not just gender.

If having boy parts does not make one a boy then having black skin should not define one as black, having red hair should not define one as redheaded and having no legs should not define one as legless.

ensbergcollector
01-12-2012, 10:44 AM
saying that our physical body does not define our gender is insane. should doctors stop telling parents what gender child they had until the child is old enough to tell the doctor if they are a boy or a girl?

Habs- i get what you are saying but to say it is antiquated to base gender on physical body is crazy.


as for the article, not as a christian, nor as a republican, but as a father of a little girl, I would not want a boy going on my child's camp outs and overnight trips regardless of whether that child felt like it was a girl.

habsheaven
01-12-2012, 10:46 AM
No need to be rude. If physical aspects do not define what a person is then that should apply to all physical aspects, not just gender.

If having boy parts does not make one a boy then having black skin should not define one as black, having red hair should not define one as redheaded and having no legs should not define one as legless.

That's funny. Calling my comments on the subject "funny" is not rude, but my commenting on you not being able to grasp the concept, is rude.

I will have to make a mental note of that.

As for the topic, physical aspects usually do define a person. However, physical aspects are not just the visual kind. Chemical biology found within an individual also factors into everyone's "makeup". It is a lot more complicated than comparing it to people wanting to be something they are physically not.

habsheaven
01-12-2012, 10:47 AM
saying that our physical body does not define our gender is insane. should doctors stop telling parents what gender child they had until the child is old enough to tell the doctor if they are a boy or a girl?

Habs- i get what you are saying but to say it is antiquated to base gender on physical body is crazy.


as for the article, not as a christian, nor as a republican, but as a father of a little girl, I would not want a boy going on my child's camp outs and overnight trips regardless of whether that child felt like it was a girl.

No, saying that ONLY our physical attributes define us, is insane.

mrveggieman
01-12-2012, 10:59 AM
Let me post this question to the group. Would you be in favor of having special restrooms and other public facilities for gay and transgendered people?

ensbergcollector
01-12-2012, 11:05 AM
Let me post this question to the group. Would you be in favor of having special restrooms and other public facilities for gay and transgendered people?

I honestly don't know. But all I could think when I read the question was walking into a restaurant and seeing 5 restrooms. Many places already have male, female, and family. Now are are going to add men who feel they are women and women who feel they are men. And what would those signs look like?

habsheaven
01-12-2012, 11:06 AM
Let me post this question to the group. Would you be in favor of having special restrooms and other public facilities for gay and transgendered people?

No. There is no need to be that accommodating, they will use whatever washroom they feel comfortable using.

mrveggieman
01-12-2012, 11:14 AM
Posted in error.

ensbergcollector
01-12-2012, 11:16 AM
No. There is no need to be that accommodating, they will use whatever washroom they feel comfortable using.

and this is where it becomes a problem. is it really ok for people to use whatever bathroom they feel comfortable using? so guys can go into the ladies restroom and all they have to say is "I'm really a female inside"? You do realize this opens up an obscene amount of avenues for sex offenders and stalkers right?
I get that there are some people who feel like they are in the wrong body. I would also say it is easily less than 1% of the population. So everyone should be made to feel uncomfortable to suit the extreme minority? Most women I know would not enter a bathroom with a man just because the man said he was really a woman on the inside.

habsheaven
01-12-2012, 11:33 AM
and this is where it becomes a problem. is it really ok for people to use whatever bathroom they feel comfortable using? so guys can go into the ladies restroom and all they have to say is "I'm really a female inside"? You do realize this opens up an obscene amount of avenues for sex offenders and stalkers right?
I get that there are some people who feel like they are in the wrong body. I would also say it is easily less than 1% of the population. So everyone should be made to feel uncomfortable to suit the extreme minority? Most women I know would not enter a bathroom with a man just because the man said he was really a woman on the inside.

If the person is 8 or 80, dressed like a girl, acting like a girl, living as a girl; which washroom do you want them using? I assume they are going to be doing their business in a stall just like the rest of the females in there. Sex offenders and stalkers will do whatever they choose, regardless. They do not have to pretend they are transgender.

ensbergcollector
01-12-2012, 11:36 AM
If the person is 8 or 80, dressed like a girl, acting like a girl, living as a girl; which washroom do you want them using? I assume they are going to be doing their business in a stall just like the rest of the females in there. Sex offenders and stalkers will do whatever they choose, regardless. They do not have to pretend they are transgender.

so you are ok asking 99% of women to be uncomfortable in the bathroom to accommodate less than 1%?

and if you think sex offenders who previously would never have entered a women's bathroom wouldn't use that to their advantage you are being very short sighted IMO.

duane1969
01-12-2012, 11:37 AM
As for the topic, physical aspects usually do define a person. However, physical aspects are not just the visual kind. Chemical biology found within an individual also factors into everyone's "makeup". It is a lot more complicated than comparing it to people wanting to be something they are physically not.

Physical aspects dictate chemical biology. Show me a person with male genetalia and I can guarantee you that they have predominance of testosterone in their body. Show me a person with female genetailia and I can guarantee you that they have a predominance of estrogen in their body.


Let me post this question to the group. Would you be in favor of having special restrooms and other public facilities for gay and transgendered people?

Yes. I think it would make them more comfortable and I think it would make others more comfortable.

I have no problem with people who have these issues but I would have a MAJOR problem if a man came walking out of the bathroom that my 16 year old daughter is in.


No. There is no need to be that accommodating, they will use whatever washroom they feel comfortable using.

So if a man feels comfortable using the women's restroom then the women in the restroom should just accept it because in his mind he is female?

Try walking into a restroom, announce to everyone "It's OK, I feel like a woman inside" and let me know how that goes for you. And no, I will not pay your bail.

habsheaven
01-12-2012, 11:41 AM
so you are ok asking 99% of women to be uncomfortable in the bathroom to accommodate less than 1%?

and if you think sex offenders who previously would never have entered a women's bathroom wouldn't use that to their advantage you are being very short sighted IMO.

Are you implying that these 99% are all going to know they are sharing a washroom with a person they consider the opposite sex? Why couldn't a sex offender dress as a woman now to attempt something obscene?

I thought we were talking about actual transgender people, not every Tom, Dick or Harry that wants to pee sitting down for a change.

mrveggieman
01-12-2012, 11:44 AM
I have no problem with people who have these issues but I would have a MAJOR problem if a man came walking out of the bathroom that my 16 year old daughter is in.





I feel you on that. What about a bathroom for transgendered children? So far I am counting at least 7 different bathrooms. A regular one for men and women. Then a family bathroom. One for men who think that they are women, women who think they are men, boys who think they are girls and girls who think that they are boys. And to top it all off then we would have to worry about someone not using the bathroom that was designed for them. I'm all for equal rights but at some point a man should be a man and a woman should be a woman. Wow I'm so dizzy just thinking about it I need to go to the bathroom to throw up. :frusty:

duane1969
01-12-2012, 11:49 AM
I feel you on that. They would then in turn have a bathroom for transgendered children. So far I am counting at least 7 different bathrooms. A regular one for men and women. Then a family bathroom. One for men who think that they are women, women who think they are men, boys who think they are girls and girls who think that they are boys. Wow I'm so dizzy just thinking about it I need to go to the bathroom to throw up. :frusty:

Or they could just have a bathroom for men and one for women and you go in the one that your body parts dictate.

If you go into a bathroom with urinals and you can't use a urinal, then you shouldn't be in there.

If you go in a bathroom and the stalls are full and you can use a urinal but there none, then you shouldn't be in there.

habsheaven
01-12-2012, 11:55 AM
Physical aspects dictate chemical biology. Show me a person with male genetalia and I can guarantee you that they have predominance of testosterone in their body. Show me a person with female genetailia and I can guarantee you that they have a predominance of estrogen in their body.



Yes. I think it would make them more comfortable and I think it would make others more comfortable.

I have no problem with people who have these issues but I would have a MAJOR problem if a man came walking out of the bathroom that my 16 year old daughter is in.



So if a man feels comfortable using the women's restroom then the women in the restroom should just accept it because in his mind he is female?

Try walking into a restroom, announce to everyone "It's OK, I feel like a woman inside" and let me know how that goes for you. And no, I will not pay your bail.

I was not referring to just testoserone and estrogen, they do influence your physical appearance, but DNA influences your sexual identity.

And again, we are not talking about regular people entering washrooms of the opposite sex, we are talking about people living their lives as the opposite sex. Why is it necessary to constantly point this out?

duane1969
01-12-2012, 12:05 PM
I was not referring to just testoserone and estrogen, they do influence your physical appearance, but DNA influences your sexual identity.

And again, we are not talking about regular people entering washrooms of the opposite sex, we are talking about people living their lives as the opposite sex. Why is it necessary to constantly point this out?

If a person's DNA gave them a certain genitalia then the DNA did it's job. It is either a chemical issue or a mental one, not a DNA one.

And I have seen quite a few men who dressed and lived as women and vice versa, I have never once been confused as to what gender of person I was looking at.

And I am not speaking of something that I have no experience with. One of my best friends as a child was a girl. Her name is Michelle but she introduces herself as Mitch. She acts, walks, talks and dresses like a guy. She watches football, owns a landscaping business, wears an old sweaty hat, drives a beat-up truck and loves riding dirt bikes and 4-wheelers, but you can tell she is not a guy. Most people can do the same.

habsheaven
01-12-2012, 12:14 PM
If a person's DNA gave them a certain genitalia then the DNA did it's job. It is either a chemical issue or a mental one, not a DNA one.

And I have seen quite a few men who dressed and lived as women and vice versa, I have never once been confused as to what gender of person I was looking at.

And I am not speaking of something that I have no experience with. One of my best friends as a child was a girl. Her name is Michelle but she introduces herself as Mitch. She acts, walks, talks and dresses like a guy. She watches football, owns a landscaping business, wears an old sweaty hat, drives a beat-up truck and loves riding dirt bikes and 4-wheelers, but you can tell she is not a guy. Most people can do the same.

Your DNA does not determine your sex organs. The absence of testoserone does. You may want to do a little research.

As for your friend Mitch/Michelle. She has a higher level of testoserone than the vast majority of females. That does not mean she is transgender. They are two different things. So perhaps you do not have any experience with it.

duane1969
01-12-2012, 12:27 PM
Your DNA does not determine your sex organs. The absence of testoserone does. You may want to do a little research.

As for your friend Mitch/Michelle. She has a higher level of testoserone than the vast majority of females. That does not mean she is transgender. They are two different things. So perhaps you do not have any experience with it.

Actually you may want to do some research yourself. X and Y chromosomes determine sex. If there are an X and a Y then it is a male. If there are two Xs then it is a female. Also, fetal gender can be determined as early as 7 weeks by examining fetal DNA in the mother's blood. DNA plays a role in gender development.

And Mitch is a female who dresses and lives as a male. Exactly what you are talking about. My original statement was that how you dress does not define you as transgendered. You then proceeded to tell me how wrong I am.

I quote...


Your self-image defines your gender.

habsheaven
01-12-2012, 12:35 PM
Actually you may want to do some research yourself. X and Y chromosomes determine sex. If there are an X and a Y then it is a male. If there are two Xs then it is a female. Also, fetal gender can be determined as early as 7 weeks by examining fetal DNA in the mother's blood. DNA plays a role in gender development.

And Mitch is a female who dresses and lives as a male. Exactly what you are talking about. My original statement was that how you dress does not define you as transgendered. You then proceeded to tell me how wrong I am.

I quote...

Which washroom does Mitch use?

And self-image is not what you "look like" on the outside, it is what you "feel like" on the inside.

tsjct
01-12-2012, 01:26 PM
i say cut it off and make him a GIRL. That would end it. Its all about PC. We have to be PC on everything now. We have to give up our values now to appease the few. Sad world we live in.

theonedru
01-12-2012, 01:26 PM
I see a little child that is being ostracized by America. Its sad but typical of our closed minded societies. Its almost insane how this child's actions are being compared in ways to criminal such as rapists and molesters and other shady characters of society. Its a kid exploring who he is, there is nothing wrong with that, we should just be supportive of his journey and that when he finds himself that he is content.

tsjct
01-12-2012, 01:27 PM
Which washroom does Mitch use?

And self-image is not what you "look like" on the outside, it is what you "feel like" on the inside.

So if a HS boy feels like a Girl on the inside should he be able to play on the girls Basketball team, volleyball team, etc. Where does this stop?

tsjct
01-12-2012, 01:30 PM
I see a little child that is being ostracized by America. Its sad but typical of our closed minded societies. Its almost insane how this child's actions are being compared in ways to criminal such as rapists and molesters and other shady characters of society. Its a kid exploring who he is, there is nothing wrong with that, we should just be supportive of his journey and that when he finds himself that he is content.

i would not say he is a criminal in anyway but i also would not want him in my little girls "GIRLS Scout". Maybe He/She needs to start up a "CD Scouts".

habsheaven
01-12-2012, 01:33 PM
So if a HS boy feels like a Girl on the inside should he be able to play on the girls Basketball team, volleyball team, etc. Where does this stop?

That depends. Did she play on her junior high basketball team? If so, then yes.

tsjct
01-12-2012, 01:34 PM
That depends. Did she play on her junior high basketball team? If so, then yes.

Wow! All i can say is WOW.:rolleyes:

ensbergcollector
01-12-2012, 01:42 PM
I see a little child that is being ostracized by America. Its sad but typical of our closed minded societies. Its almost insane how this child's actions are being compared in ways to criminal such as rapists and molesters and other shady characters of society. Its a kid exploring who he is, there is nothing wrong with that, we should just be supportive of his journey and that when he finds himself that he is content.

no one is comparing this child to rapists and molesters. that was a conversation that veered off the original topic. As for the topic, I can be supportive of his "journey" without wanting him on overnight trips with my daughter.

ensbergcollector
01-12-2012, 01:43 PM
That depends. Did she play on her junior high basketball team? If so, then yes.

and if "she" plays on the high school team should "she" be allowed to play college ball? Should "she" be allowed to play for the united states in the olympics on the girls team?

Star_Cards
01-12-2012, 01:50 PM
Let me post this question to the group. Would you be in favor of having special restrooms and other public facilities for gay and transgendered people?

for gay people? absolutely not. for transgender, I'd probably say no. Just go to the one that you identify with I guess. Even though restrooms are separated by sex it's not like everyone is seeing you handle your business.

Star_Cards
01-12-2012, 01:54 PM
and this is where it becomes a problem. is it really ok for people to use whatever bathroom they feel comfortable using? so guys can go into the ladies restroom and all they have to say is "I'm really a female inside"? You do realize this opens up an obscene amount of avenues for sex offenders and stalkers right?
I get that there are some people who feel like they are in the wrong body. I would also say it is easily less than 1% of the population. So everyone should be made to feel uncomfortable to suit the extreme minority? Most women I know would not enter a bathroom with a man just because the man said he was really a woman on the inside.

if people are using the bathroom properly and not being a creeper or a sex offender all of this should happen rather seamlessly in my opinion. People acting inappropriately or trying to get into the opposite sexes bathroom is probably going to try to cause trouble and should be handle as such. I get what you are saying, but I'd assume most transgendered people are wanting to blend in as much as possible. I'd assume they currently go into the restroom of how they physically look at the time.

tsjct
01-12-2012, 01:54 PM
That depends. Did she play on her junior high basketball team? If so, then yes.

Well our JR high Boys team here in our small town is great. I guess we need to dress them as girls and let them start now. By the time they are freshman they can win the Girls State Texas Championship in 3A for 4 straight years. :rolleyes:

Star_Cards
01-12-2012, 02:02 PM
i say cut it off and make him a GIRL. That would end it. Its all about PC. We have to be PC on everything now. We have to give up our values now to appease the few. Sad world we live in.

cut it off and make him a girl?! there's a difference from being PC and being a completely insensitive, closed-minded, fearful jerk.

what values are you being forced to give up being accepting of this child wanting to be a girl scout? This troop is probably, what, 10-100 girls at the most. How do you think they are being asked to give up their values? And how exactly is this even effecting you?

your comment shows how closed minded you are about potential differences that we all have as human being. It's not like this kid is asking you to do anything or give up any of your precious values. He wants to join, actually, he has joined a club that obviously is acceptant of him. Why does it matter if complete outsiders like you or the girl scout in california have anything to do with it?

Star_Cards
01-12-2012, 02:10 PM
i would not say he is a criminal in anyway but i also would not want him in my little girls "GIRLS Scout". Maybe He/She needs to start up a "CD Scouts".

Is there something that your daughter would be forced to do that you wouldn't like by him joining the girl scouts? I'm just curious what the harm is in this?

I was in cub scouts and boy scouts for most of my childhood, until I was about 16. The only thing that I can think of that we did that a girl wouldn't or shouldn't have been a part of was showering at summer camp during the week we were there. And that said, there were a decent amount of camp workers who were female during camp. There weren't many but they had separate accommodations and the facilities had men's and women's bathrooms, etc. I don't see any real difference and not many reasons to say where it would be inappropriate to have a boy in girl scouts or vice versa.

tsjct
01-12-2012, 02:16 PM
Is there something that your daughter would be forced to do that you wouldn't like by him joining the girl scouts? I'm just curious what the harm is in this?

I was in cub scouts and boy scouts for most of my childhood, until I was about 16. The only thing that I can think of that we did that a girl wouldn't or shouldn't have been a part of was showering at summer camp during the week we were there. And that said, there were a decent amount of camp workers who were female during camp. There weren't many but they had separate accommodations and the facilities had men's and women's bathrooms, etc. I don't see any real difference and not many reasons to say where it would be inappropriate to have a boy in girl scouts or vice versa.

My little girl is 9 and does a lot with girls scouts and i do not want to have to explain to her about SEX at this age. They are KIDS and i want them to be kids. SEX comes fast enough these days but i do not want to rush it. And when the time is right I will be the one to explain it not another adult trying to explain why the boy in her GIRLS Scout group wears a bra and panties. This is just wrong and NO ONE will change my mind on this subject. If the parents are so die hard on the idea why do they not start up a CD SCOUTS group and they can all feel good.

ensbergcollector
01-12-2012, 02:18 PM
I have a 4 year old daughter so I am not into girl scouts yet. However, I would have a problem with any activity that involves changing clothes, spending overnights in hotels or tents, etc.

Also, I agree on tsjct's point about the conversations that will be required.

tsjct
01-12-2012, 02:19 PM
cut it off and make him a girl?! there's a difference from being PC and being a completely insensitive, closed-minded, fearful jerk.

what values are you being forced to give up being accepting of this child wanting to be a girl scout? This troop is probably, what, 10-100 girls at the most. How do you think they are being asked to give up their values? And how exactly is this even effecting you?

your comment shows how closed minded you are about potential differences that we all have as human being. It's not like this kid is asking you to do anything or give up any of your precious values. He wants to join, actually, he has joined a club that obviously is acceptant of him. Why does it matter if complete outsiders like you or the girl scout in california have anything to do with it?

I am a fearful JERK??? So now its name calling LOL. I do not believe a boy dressing as a GIRL is right so i am a jerk. IT is wrong and that is the bottom line. Call it what you want but i call it what it is.

duane1969
01-12-2012, 02:30 PM
My little girl is 9 and does a lot with girls scouts and i do not want to have to explain to her about SEX at this age. They are KIDS and i want them to be kids. SEX comes fast enough these days but i do not want to rush it. And when the time is right I will be the one to explain it not another adult trying to explain why the boy in her GIRLS Scout group wears a bra and panties. This is just wrong and NO ONE will change my mind on this subject. If the parents are so die hard on the idea why do they not start up a CD SCOUTS group and they can all feel good.

+1

The best argument yet. Imposing on the psyche of a group of children to protect the psyche of a single child is not right or justified.

If a person wants to be an individual, fine. If their individuality infringes on everyone else's rights then a boundary has been crossed.

jdawg
01-12-2012, 02:32 PM
I didn't say clothes define the gender. Your self-image defines your gender. To believe that the body you are born in defines your gender is outdated and ignorant in today's world. The world is a very complex place and people have to stop pigeon-holing everyone into their antiquated categories.

no the organs between your legs define your gender lol

habsheaven
01-12-2012, 02:41 PM
The lack of tolerance on these boards is mind-boggling at times. We are talking about a child. What does overnight trips and changing clothes have to do with anything? Do you think all these kids at these events strip down in front of everyone else? Very few young children would have a problem with this and for the few that did it would be a good learning experience. It's obvious a few of you on here missed the tolerance lessons as a child.

duane1969
01-12-2012, 02:41 PM
no the organs between your legs define your gender lol

Not if you are a liberal. They are either male or female depending on what they say they are. Gender is an ambiguous term used to describe what a person feels they are, not what science and physiology says they are. Self-opinion trumps reality.

Star_Cards
01-12-2012, 02:56 PM
I actually don't think self opinion trumps what you physically are. I just think in some minor cases there is more to it than that. I just don't see anything wrong if a boy wants to join the scouts if he is interested in the types of things that group does. If a girl wanted to join the scouts because she was interested in camping and knot tying and isn't transgender, I say let her in. I'm sure the scouts aren't turning away people and can use the members.

habsheaven
01-12-2012, 02:58 PM
The reality is: some people IDENTIFY as being the opposite sex all of their lives. Once again, conservatives see the world as being black and white, right and wrong. If that's how they find comfort in their scary world, so be it.

Star_Cards
01-12-2012, 02:59 PM
My little girl is 9 and does a lot with girls scouts and i do not want to have to explain to her about SEX at this age. They are KIDS and i want them to be kids. SEX comes fast enough these days but i do not want to rush it. And when the time is right I will be the one to explain it not another adult trying to explain why the boy in her GIRLS Scout group wears a bra and panties. This is just wrong and NO ONE will change my mind on this subject. If the parents are so die hard on the idea why do they not start up a CD SCOUTS group and they can all feel good.

what does a boy in the girls scouts have to do with sexual intercourse or anything along those lines. Wouldn't saying "he likes to do these things" be suffice? Of course I'm over simplifying that, but you get my point hopefully. There's a difference between knowing the differences of the sexes and knowing about actual sexual situations.

cd scouts?

duane1969
01-12-2012, 02:59 PM
I actually don't think self opinion trumps what you physically are. I just think in some minor cases there is more to it than that. I just don't see anything wrong if a boy wants to join the scouts if he is interested in the types of things that group does. If a girl wanted to join the scouts because she was interested in camping and knot tying and isn't transgender, I say let her in. I'm sure the scouts aren't turning away people and can use the members.

Actually they do turn away girls from the Boy Scouts and vice versa.

This boy is only allowed to join because he is "living as a girl". If he were living as a boy he would be blocked. So his self-opinion is trumping what he physically is.

habsheaven
01-12-2012, 03:05 PM
Actually they do turn away girls from the Boy Scouts and vice versa.

This boy is only allowed to join because he is "living as a girl". If he were living as a boy he would be blocked. So his self-opinion is trumping what he physically is.

And it probably does every day of his life. What's wrong with that?

tsjct
01-12-2012, 03:10 PM
The reality is: some people IDENTIFY as being the opposite sex all of their lives. Once again, conservatives see the world as being black and white, right and wrong. If that's how they find comfort in their scary world, so be it.

I find it scary that the LIBERALS have to shove all their Values down our throat and we have to take it! But god forbid if we disagree we are just racist, hate mongers, etc. I say its wrong you say its right. That is the difference in a Conservative and a LIBERAL. Nothing will change your thoughts or mine but just because you say it should be done does not forbid me fighting to make sure it does not happen. I just hate to see the Girls Scouts have to CAVE for the ONE child. If the conservatives do not take a stand we are in big big trouble.

tsjct
01-12-2012, 03:14 PM
what does a boy in the girls scouts have to do with sexual intercourse or anything along those lines. Wouldn't saying "he likes to do these things" be suffice? Of course I'm over simplifying that, but you get my point hopefully. There's a difference between knowing the differences of the sexes and knowing about actual sexual situations.

cd scouts?


You do not think those little girls are going to have questions? You are not looking at the full picture. You are set that we have to accept that way of life whether we like it or not. The girls scouts let him in because they were afraid of a lawsuit as we all know that is where this was going. If i were the other parents i would just pull the girls out and start a group of their own. If they need donations have them email me and i will donate to that cause. We have to stop the insanity.

gladdyontherise
01-12-2012, 03:24 PM
I find it scary that the LIBERALS have to shove all their Values down our throat and we have to take it! But god forbid if we disagree we are just racist, hate mongers, etc. I say its wrong you say its right. That is the difference in a Conservative and a LIBERAL. Nothing will change your thoughts or mine but just because you say it should be done does not forbid me fighting to make sure it does not happen. I just hate to see the Girls Scouts have to CAVE for the ONE child. If the conservatives do not take a stand we are in big big trouble.

That works both ways. Conservatives do the EXACT same thing. To not think that is being naive, in my opinion.

--
Personally I'd feel uncomfortable if a person born (body part wise) as a women was in the men's bathroom. It'd be just awkward to me.

Star_Cards
01-12-2012, 04:42 PM
Actually they do turn away girls from the Boy Scouts and vice versa.

This boy is only allowed to join because he is "living as a girl". If he were living as a boy he would be blocked. So his self-opinion is trumping what he physically is.

I meant that as in they aren't super popular as they were and had waiting lists for boys for boy scouts or girls for girl scout. Basically meant that as far as shear numbers they may not want to turn opposite sexed kids away. Although I don't know of their numbers just assuming as it's definitely not as popular as it was decades ago.

duwal
01-12-2012, 04:45 PM
and if "she" plays on the high school team should "she" be allowed to play college ball? Should "she" be allowed to play for the united states in the olympics on the girls team?


yes "she" absolutely can, I mean Serena Williams is already allowed to for her sport :winking0071:

Star_Cards
01-12-2012, 04:55 PM
You do not think those little girls are going to have questions? You are not looking at the full picture. You are set that we have to accept that way of life whether we like it or not. The girls scouts let him in because they were afraid of a lawsuit as we all know that is where this was going. If i were the other parents i would just pull the girls out and start a group of their own. If they need donations have them email me and i will donate to that cause. We have to stop the insanity.

I'm sure they will. Questions that I'd think any girl would have about boys using different bathrooms at school. I don't have kids so it's possible I'm over looking something, but I'd think the segregation that boys have form girls at school would be the same sort of questions asked. Now, I say that not knowing how this kid looks or anything about how he dresses or acts. I guess I just don't know the harm in being honest and answering the questions to a general degree about the situation. I'd just hope when ever I'm a parent that I wouldn't freak out because my child has to be around or learn about transgender, gay, or any other type of person that may not fit social norms. I'd hope that I'd educate them that them being different is okay and it's perfectly fine to accept them even if they are different. I guess I'll have to find out if I'm ever in that situation.

Do you know that the girls in this boy's troop are not accepting? Maybe there was some of that mentioned in the article that I missed. Have there been a ton of girls being pulled out of the troop by their parents or wanting to leave because of him being in. If this troop doesn't want him in I would assume that it's not that fun for him as the parents and kids would more than likely more or less shun him or would be nasty to him.

also, I'd add that if you are against it give your reasons as you have done and not chime in with "if he wants in, cut it off, and make him a girl." hard to discuss something with a person that shows so little sensitivity. and that has nothing to do with being PC. being understanding and tolerant or accepting of others who are different isn't being PC.

duwal
01-12-2012, 04:57 PM
I find it scary that the LIBERALS have to shove all their Values down our throat and we have to take it! But god forbid if we disagree we are just racist, hate mongers, etc. I say its wrong you say its right. That is the difference in a Conservative and a LIBERAL. Nothing will change your thoughts or mine but just because you say it should be done does not forbid me fighting to make sure it does not happen. I just hate to see the Girls Scouts have to CAVE for the ONE child. If the conservatives do not take a stand we are in big big trouble.


there are also a lot of conservative Republicans who also would feel that you are being a hate monger, you're someone that automatically seems to think of the very worst scenario. A scenario where a boy joins your 9 year old girls scout troop and the first thing that pops in your head is talks of sex and sleepovers?? Its not even close-minded, your thinking is just perverted.

whats just as amazing is that you think this issue is something that is divided by political affiliation

Star_Cards
01-12-2012, 05:02 PM
I find it scary that the LIBERALS have to shove all their Values down our throat and we have to take it! But god forbid if we disagree we are just racist, hate mongers, etc. I say its wrong you say its right. That is the difference in a Conservative and a LIBERAL. Nothing will change your thoughts or mine but just because you say it should be done does not forbid me fighting to make sure it does not happen. I just hate to see the Girls Scouts have to CAVE for the ONE child. If the conservatives do not take a stand we are in big big trouble.

I guess I just see a difference between forcing you to change your VALUES and being accepting of the fact that there are other people that exist that are different. To me forcing those people to follow the social norm is shoving your values down their throats. I don't think you are a hate monger, I just think you are afraid at the fact that there are different types of people out there and while they are different they aren't out to get you or make you change how you live. they just want acceptance.

duane1969
01-12-2012, 05:31 PM
And it probably does every day of his life. What's wrong with that?

Nothing. Expecting everyone else to accept it and change themselves to accomodate him is what is wrong.


I meant that as in they aren't super popular as they were and had waiting lists for boys for boy scouts or girls for girl scout. Basically meant that as far as shear numbers they may not want to turn opposite sexed kids away. Although I don't know of their numbers just assuming as it's definitely not as popular as it was decades ago.

Any suppositions as to why? If I may venture a guess, it is issues like this one.

I imagine that when little "Bobby" walks in wearing his flowery dress and patent leather shoes that easily 50% of the Girl Scouts in that room quickly become former Girl Scouts.


I guess I just see a difference between forcing you to change your VALUES and being accepting of the fact that there are other people that exist that are different. To me forcing those people to follow the social norm is shoving your values down their throats. I don't think you are a hate monger, I just think you are afraid at the fact that there are different types of people out there and while they are different they aren't out to get you or make you change how you live. they just want acceptance.

And what do you call forcing the general population to accept the individual's differences?

Expecting everyone to stop being who they are and believing what they believe to accomodate one person's right to be who they are and believe what they believe is socially backwards.

I support everyone's right to be an individual and make their own life choices. I do not support the idea that everyone else has to change who they are and accomodate it.

tsjct
01-12-2012, 06:37 PM
there are also a lot of conservative Republicans who also would feel that you are being a hate monger, you're someone that automatically seems to think of the very worst scenario. A scenario where a boy joins your 9 year old girls scout troop and the first thing that pops in your head is talks of sex and sleepovers?? Its not even close-minded, your thinking is just perverted.

whats just as amazing is that you think this issue is something that is divided by political affiliation


To be quite honest i am closed minded on this as i do not want to accomodate ONE child to dress in girls clothes and join the other 50 or so girls in the group and force them to accept it. To the point of perverted your CRAZY! I am not perverted in anyway and just because i do not want my child around anther child that dresses in the opposite sex does not make me perverted. This goes way deeper as i think the PARENTS of this child are the morons. Letting this child dress and act like this is going to lead to a very tough life for this child. THIS IS A CHOICE and a bad CHOICE. They are letting everyone know "Hey my Kids GAY" now accept it. And for those of you who say this kid will not grow up to sleep with other men you need to wake up. This is about GAY RIGHTS and its starting early in this kids life. WRONG WRONG and they need CHURCH.

habsheaven
01-12-2012, 06:50 PM
To be quite honest i am closed minded on this as i do not want to accomodate ONE child to dress in girls clothes and join the other 50 or so girls in the group and force them to accept it. To the point of perverted your CRAZY! I am not perverted in anyway and just because i do not want my child around anther child that dresses in the opposite sex does not make me perverted. This goes way deeper as i think the PARENTS of this child are the morons. Letting this child dress and act like this is going to lead to a very tough life for this child. THIS IS A CHOICE and a bad CHOICE. They are letting everyone know "Hey my Kids GAY" now accept it. And for those of you who say this kid will not grow up to sleep with other men you need to wake up. This is about GAY RIGHTS and its starting early in this kids life. WRONG WRONG and they need CHURCH.

You are so ignorant on this subject matter it is a shame.

ensbergcollector
01-12-2012, 07:09 PM
You are so ignorant on this subject matter it is a shame.

you are the one saying that defining gender based on your body is ignorant and antiquated. I would be careful where I throw around the ignorant phrase.

habsheaven
01-12-2012, 07:29 PM
you are the one saying that defining gender based on your body is ignorant and antiquated. I would be careful where I throw around the ignorant phrase.

No need to be careful. I am a rational person with a sense of perspective. I rarely say ignorant things. That can't be said for some on here. My perspective on this issue is that defining gender based ONLY on body parts is ignorant.

tsjct
01-13-2012, 12:46 AM
You are so ignorant on this subject matter it is a shame.

I would have to say YOUR THE MOST IGNORANT on this subject. You are saying body parts do not determine your gender??? WOW some people i just do not get.

theonedru
01-13-2012, 01:01 AM
Either read the rules or do not enter the p&r forum, its that simple people. You know who you are by your comments made towards each other.

BigBerserker
01-13-2012, 01:24 AM
I didn't say clothes define the gender. Your self-image defines your gender. To believe that the body you are born in defines your gender is outdated and ignorant in today's world. The world is a very complex place and people have to stop pigeon-holing everyone into their antiquated categories.

You are correct, I learned this myself in school while studying psychology. The term "gender" is defined as how an individual associates or defines themselves with a particular gender (male/female). A persons "sex" is defined by the anatomical parts a person is born with.

Now for my argument; how do you think people would have responded to GCUSA if they did not allow a transgender girl into their club?

duane1969
01-13-2012, 08:43 AM
Let's keep it nice kids. No need to get personal. Part of the joy of the P&R forum and the debates that occur here is the expression of one's own opinion. Because someone does not agree with your perspective is not justification to be demeaning or rude. Keep it nice or take it somewhere else.

- Duane

duane1969
01-13-2012, 08:43 AM
Let's keep it nice kids. No need to get personal. Part of the joy of the P&R forum and the debates that occur here is the expression of one's own opinion. Because someone does not agree with your perspective is not justification to be demeaning or rude. Keep it nice or take it somewhere else.

- Duane

Star_Cards
01-13-2012, 09:03 AM
And what do you call forcing the general population to accept the individual's differences?

Expecting everyone to stop being who they are and believing what they believe to accomodate one person's right to be who they are and believe what they believe is socially backwards.

I support everyone's right to be an individual and make their own life choices. I do not support the idea that everyone else has to change who they are and accomodate it.


I guess I don't see it the same way as you. Our country has gone through this same type of thing in the past with other scenarios of intolerance. Whether it be segregation, equal rights for women, interacial couples being accepted, homosexuality, gay marriage, and so on. I guess no one should have fought for those things to gain acceptance either because it would force the general population to not be afraid of whatever they were afraid of.

Basically I see it as educating people and letting them know that this people who are different than their norm are not to be feared. They really aren't looking to strip you of anything. They just want to be treated like people and not some sort of a joke. The best way to break down these barriers that people have up is to interact with people who are different than you and in fact you will probably find out that they really aren't all that different than you.

For me, in this situation, I'd think it would be a great learning experience for the other girls about knowing there are people out there who are different and just because they are different doesn't mean they are bad or going to hurt you.

Star_Cards
01-13-2012, 09:08 AM
To be quite honest i am closed minded on this as i do not want to accomodate ONE child to dress in girls clothes and join the other 50 or so girls in the group and force them to accept it. To the point of perverted your CRAZY! I am not perverted in anyway and just because i do not want my child around anther child that dresses in the opposite sex does not make me perverted. This goes way deeper as i think the PARENTS of this child are the morons. Letting this child dress and act like this is going to lead to a very tough life for this child. THIS IS A CHOICE and a bad CHOICE. They are letting everyone know "Hey my Kids GAY" now accept it. And for those of you who say this kid will not grow up to sleep with other men you need to wake up. This is about GAY RIGHTS and its starting early in this kids life. WRONG WRONG and they need CHURCH.

Have you ever thought that maybe these other girls don't care? That maybe no one is forcing them to accept this kid? Maybe, just maybe they accept him because they just see another human being and they won't judge him like adults do without knowing who he is first.

If you GAY RIGHTS is WRONG WRONG, I really have no other words for you.

FYI... I know gay people that go to church so be careful out there, buddy.

Star_Cards
01-13-2012, 09:10 AM
you are the one saying that defining gender based on your body is ignorant and antiquated. I would be careful where I throw around the ignorant phrase.

The guy just said that it's about gay rights and it's wrong and they need church. I'd call that ignorant in my book.

habsheaven
01-13-2012, 09:11 AM
I guess I don't see it the same way as you. Our country has gone through this same type of thing in the past with other scenarios of intolerance. Whether it be segregation, equal rights for women, interacial couples being accepted, homosexuality, gay marriage, and so on. I guess no one should have fought for those things to gain acceptance either because it would force the general population to not be afraid of whatever they were afraid of.

Basically I see it as educating people and letting them know that this people who are different than their norm are not to be feared. They really aren't looking to strip you of anything. They just want to be treated like people and not some sort of a joke. The best way to break down these barriers that people have up is to interact with people who are different than you and in fact you will probably find out that they really aren't all that different than you.

For me, in this situation, I'd think it would be a great learning experience for the other girls about knowing there are people out there who are different and just because they are different doesn't mean they are bad or going to hurt you.

Well said. It baffles me that, as a society, we continue to need to learn these lessons from the past.

mrveggieman
01-13-2012, 09:19 AM
Despite what the religious right wants to believe gay and transgendered people are not going anywhere. We as a society need to understand that and come up with solutions. Now to be honest I wouldn't be jumping for joy if a transgenered guy was in the same bathroom or locker room with me but they do have the right to all of the same accodomations as straight people. We need to come up with solutions and not more division.

Star_Cards
01-13-2012, 09:50 AM
Despite what the religious right wants to believe gay and transgendered people are not going anywhere. We as a society need to understand that and come up with solutions. Now to be honest I wouldn't be jumping for joy if a transgenered guy was in the same bathroom or locker room with me but they do have the right to all of the same accodomations as straight people. We need to come up with solutions and not more division.

hey, if the person isn't a stand-around-chatting-naked guy then he's welcome in my locker room anytime.

mrveggieman
01-13-2012, 09:59 AM
hey, if the person isn't a stand-around-chatting-naked guy then he's welcome in my locker room anytime.


Not to be funny or anything what if the guy was a pre op transexual. Would you be ok if he/she was in the locker room with you. If not what locker room should he/she use?

Star_Cards
01-13-2012, 10:18 AM
Not to be funny or anything what if the guy was a pre op transexual. Would you be ok if he/she was in the locker room with you. If not what locker room should he/she use?

okay, so the guy is going through sexual reassignment surgery and has yet to do the actual surgery... I say this this before answering because I think the process has them going through hormone treatments and such that start to change their appearance months before the actual final procedure that reforms their genitals.

so, if the person was dressing like a woman and basically looked like a woman but just had male genitalia I'd wonder why this woman just walked into the men's locker room. That would be a little unordinary so I'd definitely take notice and I doubt that I'd jump to the conclusion that this person was transgender. Now, at that point I'm not sure what would happen. Would this person address the people in the locker and explain the situation? Should they? I don't know really.

Now, say my gym reaches out and informs everyone of the situation or after being told of the situation in any other way, no, I wouldn't have a problem with a guy who is pre-op changing in the men's locker room. That's not to say that a gym announcing it is the proper way because I'm not sure if it is or not.

I've really only known of one transgendered person during my life and I just knew who they were and never interacted with them. She worked for the same company but in a area. I'm actually curious how everything was handled. I do know that the person went through the sex change process while employed here and changed her name. I'm pretty sure my company addressed it just like any woman changing her name after getting married. Outside of that I'm not sure what issues came up with bathrooms and whatnot. Although with bathrooms it's a little less of a deal as there are stalls and whatnot.

habsheaven
01-13-2012, 10:23 AM
Not to be funny or anything what if the guy was a pre op transexual. Would you be ok if he/she was in the locker room with you. If not what locker room should he/she use?

Personally, I do not care who is in the locker room/shower when I am in there as long as they are an adult. I make the assumption that my reason for being there is the same as their reason, and I go about my own business.

ensbergcollector
01-13-2012, 10:28 AM
You are correct, I learned this myself in school while studying psychology. The term "gender" is defined as how an individual associates or defines themselves with a particular gender (male/female). A persons "sex" is defined by the anatomical parts a person is born with.

Now for my argument; how do you think people would have responded to GCUSA if they did not allow a transgender girl into their club?

not sure what your psychology class taught but "gender" is just a grammatical difference from sex. I.E. it is the same. Gender just refers to using he or she instead of man or woman. There is no difference.
But it wouldn't surprise me to see psychology changing things as they see fit.

BigBerserker
01-15-2012, 06:06 AM
not sure what your psychology class taught but "gender" is just a grammatical difference from sex. I.E. it is the same. Gender just refers to using he or she instead of man or woman. There is no difference.
But it wouldn't surprise me to see psychology changing things as they see fit.

That is incorrect, gender and sex are similar but not the same. The difference is genetics and self identification. Psychology does not change things however it sees fit but rather our understanding of people make the changes as psychology reforms itself.

I ask again, how do you think people would have reacted if GCUSA did not allow a transgender girl into their club?

duane1969
01-15-2012, 12:53 PM
I guess I don't see it the same way as you. Our country has gone through this same type of thing in the past with other scenarios of intolerance. Whether it be segregation, equal rights for women, interacial couples being accepted, homosexuality, gay marriage, and so on. I guess no one should have fought for those things to gain acceptance either because it would force the general population to not be afraid of whatever they were afraid of.

Basically I see it as educating people and letting them know that this people who are different than their norm are not to be feared. They really aren't looking to strip you of anything. They just want to be treated like people and not some sort of a joke. The best way to break down these barriers that people have up is to interact with people who are different than you and in fact you will probably find out that they really aren't all that different than you.

For me, in this situation, I'd think it would be a great learning experience for the other girls about knowing there are people out there who are different and just because they are different doesn't mean they are bad or going to hurt you.

How is it intolerant? This isn't a race of people or a religion. This is an individual.

I saw a man on TV the other day. He dresses and lives as a woman ("she" is trapped in a man's body). He is also a paraplegic trapped in a walking person's body and wants to have his legs surgically removed. At what point does reality come into play and we start treating these things as psychological disorders and stop treating it as a social issue that we need to all accept?

This boy is not a girl trapped in a boy's body. He has male genitalia, he has testosterone flowing thru his blood, his chromosomes are XY...he is a male, period. His issues lie in his mentality, not his genetics or biology.


Despite what the religious right wants to believe gay and transgendered people are not going anywhere. We as a society need to understand that and come up with solutions. Now to be honest I wouldn't be jumping for joy if a transgenered guy was in the same bathroom or locker room with me but they do have the right to all of the same accodomations as straight people. We need to come up with solutions and not more division.

There is the problem. It is either A or B. You either accept it or you don't. there is no middle ground. And thanks to my right to choose, I choose not to accept it as a normal part of my life.


That is incorrect, gender and sex are similar but not the same. The difference is genetics and self identification. Psychology does not change things however it sees fit but rather our understanding of people make the changes as psychology reforms itself.

I ask again, how do you think people would have reacted if GCUSA did not allow a transgender girl into their club?

Generally the same arguments for and against it, except libs would be losing their minds with rage, protesting at Girl Scouts meetings, assaulting and assailing parents who still took their daughter to the GS meetings, filing lawsuits against GS and rioting in the streets.

habsheaven
01-15-2012, 01:34 PM
How is it intolerant? This isn't a race of people or a religion. This is an individual.

Pick up a dictionary and look up the definition of intolerance. It is not restricted to race and religion.



I saw a man on TV the other day. He dresses and lives as a woman ("she" is trapped in a man's body). He is also a paraplegic trapped in a walking person's body and wants to have his legs surgically removed. At what point does reality come into play and we start treating these things as psychological disorders and stop treating it as a social issue that we need to all accept?

This boy is not a girl trapped in a boy's body. He has male genitalia, he has testosterone flowing thru his blood, his chromosomes are XY...he is a male, period. His issues lie in his mentality, not his genetics or biology.

This is the antiquated thinking I am talking about. The whole theory that being gay or transgendered is a choice, a mental disorder, etc. It is so WRONG. I am not going to bother re-hashing it again. Some people will never see the light.



There is the problem. It is either A or B. You either accept it or you don't. there is no middle ground. And thanks to my right to choose, I choose not to accept it as a normal part of my life.

There is a middle ground, you either accept it or you don't and whichever you choose, you leave them to live their lives as they choose.



Generally the same arguments for and against it, except libs would be losing their minds with rage, protesting at Girl Scouts meetings, assaulting and assailing parents who still took their daughter to the GS meetings, filing lawsuits against GS and rioting in the streets.

I wouldn't be losing my mind with rage. I would encourage the kid to reach out to others in the same circumstances and start their own group/club to help them deal with all the intolerance we still have in the world.

duane1969
01-15-2012, 02:45 PM
Pick up a dictionary and look up the definition of intolerance. It is not restricted to race and religion.

Typically the term intolerance is associated with race and religion, not a kid who wears girl clothes. I get that the liberal movement is to redefine terminology like labeling someone a racists if they are anti-Muslim, but that doesn't mean that I comply.

Whites were intolerant of blacks. Germans were intolerant of Jews. Muslims are intolerant of Christians. Opposing a little boy dressing like a girl and going to Girl Scouts is not intolerance, it is common sense.


This is the antiquated thinking I am talking about. The whole theory that being gay or transgendered is a choice, a mental disorder, etc. It is so WRONG. I am not going to bother re-hashing it again. Some people will never see the light.

You have proof that it is anything other than psychological? I would like to see it. And by proof I mean factual data such as blood tests, DNA tests, etc., not an opinion article.

This boy is genetically, biologically and physcially a male. Prove otherwise.


There is a middle ground, you either accept it or you don't and whichever you choose, you leave them to live their lives as they choose.

I do leave them to make their choices. I just do not support their choices being foced on me or anyone who doesn't agree with it. Their right to choose does not trump everyone else's right to choose.



I wouldn't be losing my mind with rage. I would encourage the kid to reach out to others in the same circumstances and start their own group/club to help them deal with all the intolerance we still have in the world.

You may not, but it doesn't take much effort to find examples of how liberals react to someone opposing their point of view.

habsheaven
01-15-2012, 07:30 PM
As this forum points out on a daily basis, common sense is anything but common around here. I do not need PROOF to know being gay/transgender is more than psychological. Unless of course you can PROVE that it is.

tutall
01-15-2012, 08:43 PM
I ask again, how do you think people would have reacted if GCUSA did not allow a transgender girl into their club?

I think people would have been fine with it as it clearly says GIRL scouts. My head is spinning by people on this board who want to let a boy into girl scouts... Say that to yourself and tell me it doesnt sound like a bad idea... Im not against gays, im not against transgender people, Im not against girls who dress like boys and boys who dress like girls, but as a parent I want Girl Scouts to remain Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts to remain Boy Scouts. If you want to have something in the middle everyone an attend then go start it up and call it whatever you want.

Star_Cards
01-17-2012, 10:12 AM
I think people would have been fine with it as it clearly says GIRL scouts. My head is spinning by people on this board who want to let a boy into girl scouts... Say that to yourself and tell me it doesnt sound like a bad idea... Im not against gays, im not against transgender people, Im not against girls who dress like boys and boys who dress like girls, but as a parent I want Girl Scouts to remain Girl Scouts and Boy Scouts to remain Boy Scouts. If you want to have something in the middle everyone an attend then go start it up and call it whatever you want.

see, I can see an argument on both sides. I guess I just don't see it as such a big deal to let a boy into the girl scouts or vice versa.

duane1969
01-17-2012, 10:28 AM
As this forum points out on a daily basis, common sense is anything but common around here. I do not need PROOF to know being gay/transgender is more than psychological. Unless of course you can PROVE that it is.

I do not need to prove my position because I am not trying to force change. When you try to convince others that their position is wrong you need to be able to provide proof. "Because I said so" or "Because it's my opinion" is not proof.

But, for arguments sake, my proof is this. The term used by psycholigst and physicians is GID or Gender Identity Disorder. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders which is produced by the American Psychiatric Association classifies GID as a medical disorder and have created subcategories within GID including one for children named Gender Dysphoria in Children. http://www.dsm5.org/ProposedRevisions/Pages/proposedrevision.aspx?rid=192

MattDMC
01-17-2012, 03:13 PM
Just saw this post and felt like chiming in.

As a former boy scout I would be pissed if a Girl claiming to be a boy inside was allowed to join Heck if she was let in I more than likely would have left. I don't care what you feel like in the inside if you've got male parts your a male female parts your a female. If you feel like the opposite inside have the surgery and become what you feel you are.

Boy scouts are for Boys hence the name Boy scouts.
Girl scouts are for Girls hence the name Girl scouts.

There are 2 clubs for a reason if you have boy parts guess what club you belong in...Not the girls club.

I'm not sure about other states or citys but here we have a Venturing crew which is the exact same as the Boy Scouts but the Venturing crew is for anyone of any sex who wants to join. I suggest the Boy Girl scout look for something like this if there is one where heshe lives.

Star_Cards
01-17-2012, 03:54 PM
I'm not sure if I would have been pissed had a girl joined our troop. If one did and I was a parent of a son in boy scouts I would support it and if my present self was in boy scouts I wouldn't see a problem with it if the girl was saying she was transgender or if it was just a typical tomboy who was interested in the stuff we did more than the stuff girl scouts did. I guess my only issue would be making sure things we did didn't change for any reason.

tutall
01-17-2012, 06:36 PM
see, I can see an argument on both sides. I guess I just don't see it as such a big deal to let a boy into the girl scouts or vice versa.

My post was really more in response to the question would people care if the boy wasnt let into girl scouts... People are excluded from groups all the time and no one cares because it is clear they are not welcome there... As a white male from Indiana I would not try to join the NAACP. I would also not try to join a womans organization, a kids organization, a spanish american organization, etc... If you are a girl who enjoys boys activities find a group of girls like you and knock yourselves out.

duane1969
01-17-2012, 09:39 PM
My post was really more in response to the question would people care if the boy wasnt let into girl scouts... People are excluded from groups all the time and no one cares because it is clear they are not welcome there... As a white male from Indiana I would not try to join the NAACP. I would also not try to join a womans organization, a kids organization, a spanish american organization, etc... If you are a girl who enjoys boys activities find a group of girls like you and knock yourselves out.

If we were talking about a boy who enjoys girl activities or vice versa then I would see it differently. That would be no differently than a girl taking wood shop or a boy taking home economics. This isn't about a boy, dressed like a boy, claiming to be a boy and wanting to be addressed as a boy that wants to do girl activities.

Star_Cards
01-18-2012, 07:51 AM
If we were talking about a boy who enjoys girl activities or vice versa then I would see it differently. That would be no differently than a girl taking wood shop or a boy taking home economics. This isn't about a boy, dressed like a boy, claiming to be a boy and wanting to be addressed as a boy that wants to do girl activities.

so really then it's about wanting this kid to live up to social norms. I get that it's different and not typical stuff most people encounter on a daily basis. So if this was a "normal" boy would you have such an issue with him joining the girl scouts?

duane1969
01-18-2012, 08:09 AM
so really then it's about wanting this kid to live up to social norms. I get that it's different and not typical stuff most people encounter on a daily basis. So if this was a "normal" boy would you have such an issue with him joining the girl scouts?

If that is the way you want to see it then I can live with that. I am fine with accepting differences in people but this isn't like wearing all black or having 400 piercings or being covered in tattoos. This isn't a social acceptance issue, it is a psychological disorder.

Star_Cards
01-18-2012, 08:30 AM
If that is the way you want to see it then I can live with that. I am fine with accepting differences in people but this isn't like wearing all black or having 400 piercings or being covered in tattoos. This isn't a social acceptance issue, it is a psychological disorder.

hmm... I'm not sure I'd call it a disorder, but even if you want to call it that or even if it is, it seems that other people that are like this are able to get some happiness by making a switch. I get that it's extreme and it's pretty impossible for us "normal" people to not understand but psychological disorder or not I still think it should be socially accepted more than it is today.

duane1969
01-18-2012, 08:57 AM
hmm... I'm not sure I'd call it a disorder, but even if you want to call it that or even if it is, it seems that other people that are like this are able to get some happiness by making a switch. I get that it's extreme and it's pretty impossible for us "normal" people to not understand but psychological disorder or not I still think it should be socially accepted more than it is today.

I call it a disorder because the APA does. It is classified as a mental disorder or dysphoria.

Star_Cards
01-18-2012, 09:18 AM
I call it a disorder because the APA does. It is classified as a mental disorder or dysphoria.

my point is that even if it is a disorder, there are things that people have done to help them live more comfortably, joining the girl scouts included. Why should we not be accepting of that and adapt our thinking a little to be more accepting?

duane1969
01-18-2012, 11:40 AM
my point is that even if it is a disorder, there are things that people have done to help them live more comfortably, joining the girl scouts included. Why should we not be accepting of that and adapt our thinking a little to be more accepting?

Because one person's disorder should not affect everyone's lives. I accept accommodation within reason. Building ramps for people with physical disabilities or having special classes for people with learning disabilities falls within that realm of reasonable accommodation. Parents having to explain cross-dressing and transexualism to their little girls to accommodate a boy attending Girl Scouts in a dress and patent leather shoes does not fall within the reasonable right to accommodation in my opinion.

Star_Cards
01-18-2012, 12:13 PM
see... I don't see that as being unreasonable. If I had a friend similar to this boy and children I'd think that there's a perfectly acceptable way to inform my children of this without being too detailed or sexually explicate. Kind of along the same lines as if I had a kid and had to tell them about my gay friends. If you look at it, the more diversity that kids have exposure to the more open they tend to be in their adult life. I don't see the fear that exists in having to explain this to the other girls. It's not like you have to give full details at that age.