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mrveggieman
01-25-2012, 03:11 PM
First of all let me preference by saying that I did not write this article. I "borrowed" it from another discussion board. I would like to get the forums thoughts on it. Obviously some of the people on here are going to strongly disagree with it. If you do please provide proof of why. BTW I will accept biblical proof if can prove your point.


The truth about Trinity
The early christians did not believe in the Trinity. According to history, In year 325 A.D the trinity was establish in the Council of Nicea. This means that the Trinity was established 325 years after Jesus died. Therefore the trinity was not approved by God. and It was not approved by Jesus (because Jesus didnít live while the trinity was established). The word trinity does not exist in the bible, and the formulation of the Trinity is not mentioned in the bible neither. Therefore trinity is based on falsehood and has nothing to do with the original teachings of christianity. And it is obvious that christianity has become distorted.

Most christians believe that Jesus was Godís son. If Jesus was Godís son, then when does he become God? Because if someone is a son, then he one day must become a father. As we can see, the belief that Jesus was the son of God, is illogical and it is based on falsehood. God can not have a son. God is not a human being. Only a human being can have a son. If God had a son, then it would exist two Gods. And that would be illogical. Therefore, when Jesus is described as Godís son in the bible, it should not be understood literally. The word son, in the bible, most likely have a symbolic meaning. In the bible, other persons are also described as the sons of God. For example, David is described as the Son of God in the bible (See Psalms 2:7).

Many christians even go as far claiming that Jesus was God. They claim that Jesus was God reincarnated. If Jesus was God, then why did christians believe that he died? As we know, God is immortal. But human beings die. So since Jesus died he could not have been immortal. Ergo, Jesus was not God. If Jesus was God, then why did he prayed to God? Does a god need to pray to a god? That would be completely illogical and absurd. The reason why Jesus prayed to God, was because he was a human being and needed help and support from God. In the bible, it says that Jesus prayed to God (see Matthew 26:39, Matthew 26:42, Matthew 26:44 and Luke 5:16).
There is not a single verse in the bible, where it says that Jesus is God. The christians who claim that Jesus is God, has misunderstood the whole christian religion. And they have ignored the original teachings of christianity. All messengers that came before Jesus were humans. So it makes no sense when people claim that Jesus was more than a human. Noah, Abraham, Jakob, Isak, Josef, Moses, and Muhammed were only humans. So Jesus was just a human, just like all of the other messengers.
Many people wonder when the doctrine of the Trinity began for the first time in our history. There were many doctrines of the Trinity in the past. But most likely the doctrine of a trinity was established for the first time in ancient Babylon. According to historians, this civilization flourished around 5000 years ago. Here is a list of the trinity gods of different religions:

Babylon: King, Prince and Queen.
Egyptian religion: Osiris, Horus and Isis.
Indian religion: Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva.
Phoenician: Baal, Ashtoreth and Tammuz.
Greek religion: Zeus, Apollo and Hera.
Roman religion: Jupiter, Mars and Venus.
Christianity: The Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit.

The Trinity is a pagan doctrine taken from other religions, which became a part of Christianity. Trinity does not belong to the original teachings of Christianity. Those who established the Trinity in the Council of Nicaea 325 A.D were most likely inspired by pagan religions. As i mentioned earlier, the Trinity was established 325 years after Jesus died. Therefore the trinity was not approved by God. And It was not approved by Jesus (because Jesus didnít live when the doctrine trinity was established).

mrveggieman
01-25-2012, 03:17 PM
Mods please move this to Politics and Religion. Thanks.

gatorboymike
01-25-2012, 03:53 PM
"The Trinity is an outrageous piece of semantic flummery designed to confuse, not enlighten. And it follows a basic rule in religion that, ideally, not only should the thing you believe be absolutely impossible, but any explanation of it should be impossible to understand. And the Trinity obliges handsomely on both counts, as these three entities - the father (God), the son (Jesus), and the holy spirit (your guess is as good as mine) - become as one (miraculously, of course) while remaining separate, so that each is uniquely God, yet each is completely God. I know. You could listen to an explanation from now until next week and be none the wiser, which is, of course, the whole idea."
- Pat Condell

theonedru
01-25-2012, 10:43 PM
Most of Christianities concepts are stolen from other religions........

mrveggieman
01-26-2012, 07:52 AM
Do any of our Christian bretheren have any response to this article?

shortking98
01-26-2012, 07:55 AM
I am a Christian and do not believe in the trinity for scriptural reasons. I don't have time at the moment to type up a detailed response right now but I think the first argument made by the writer here was his strongest.

mrveggieman
01-26-2012, 07:59 AM
I am a Christian and do not believe in the trinity for scriptural reasons. I don't have time at the moment to type up a detailed response right now but I think the first argument made by the writer here was his strongest.


Thanks for responding and I appreciate your honesty. Does mrtaxman, intimidator or ensbergcollector have anything to say about this article?

ensbergcollector
01-26-2012, 10:00 AM
Thanks for responding and I appreciate your honesty. Does mrtaxman, intimidator or ensbergcollector have anything to say about this article?

i'll pass. every time i post in a religion thread it becomes an attack on christianity. not feeling up to it today.

mrveggieman
01-26-2012, 10:14 AM
i'll pass. every time i post in a religion thread it becomes an attack on christianity. not feeling up to it today.


I did not post this article as an attack on christanity or anything else. If a religion weather it be christanity, judiasm, hiduism, islam or whatever your favorite religion is indeed the true religion it should be able to stand up against scrutiny and prove itself as true. To be perfectly honest I am dissapointed that you are passing on this because I was really interested in hearing a preacher's spin on this.

ensbergcollector
01-26-2012, 10:21 AM
I did not post this article as an attack on christanity or anything else. If a religion weather it be christanity, judiasm, hiduism, islam or whatever your favorite religion is indeed the true religion it should be able to stand up against scrutiny and prove itself as true. To be perfectly honest I am dissapointed that you are passing on this because I was really interested in hearing a preacher's spin on this.

feel free to read through every single religion thread. none have we been able to have a productive conversation. if someone posts that they agree with you, they receive "thank you, i appreciate your opinion" if I post it opens the floodgates for how wrong christianity is. You are welcome to look at every single religion thread we have had. If I thought someone actually wanted to know, i would probably reply.

mrveggieman
01-26-2012, 10:29 AM
feel free to read through every single religion thread. none have we been able to have a productive conversation. if someone posts that they agree with you, they receive "thank you, i appreciate your opinion" if I post it opens the floodgates for how wrong christianity is. You are welcome to look at every single religion thread we have had. If I thought someone actually wanted to know, i would probably reply.


Yes we have disagreed on a lot of issues but I am still interested in hearing your opionion. I would not waste my time on P&R if everyone on here agreed with me. What fun would that be? I posted this topic because this is something that I and I'm sure a lot of others have had questions on the whole concept of the trinity and who better to get insite on it than a preacher? It's your call to participate or not but it would be a shame if you didn't.

ensbergcollector
01-26-2012, 10:51 AM
Yes we have disagreed on a lot of issues but I am still interested in hearing your opionion. I would not waste my time on P&R if everyone on here agreed with me. What fun would that be? I posted this topic because this is something that I and I'm sure a lot of others have had questions on the whole concept of the trinity and who better to get insite on it than a preacher? It's your call to participate or not but it would be a shame if you didn't.

normally churches of christ don't spend a lot of time focusing on the trinity, mostly because we don't spend a lot of time talking about the spirit. I am ok, not talking about the trinity, not so much the spirit, but I digress.

My initial thoughts are these:

jesus routinely talked about the spirit so the idea of the holy spirit shouldn't be an issue (not saying it is)

*It is understandable that the term and idea of the trinity didn't come about until the council of nicea because neither jesus nor the first century church were concerned with the idea of doctrine.
* as the church grew, unfortunately, doctrine was something that was needed so it was discussed and some things were established.
* I don't have a strong desire to argue for the trinity though I don't see where it is an issue either.

my issue comes with the second paragraph where the writer attempts to "prove" that jesus wasn't god or god's son. He is using human logic and applying it to God. doesn't work like that. If we limit God to man's restrictions then all of the bible is junk, (which is why many people think all of the bible is junk).

I would assume the author is attempting to argue for the "all religions are really the same" and by making jesus nothing more than a prophet then he fits in line with the islamic idea of christ. however, it is impossible to ignore jesus' claim that he is the only way to heaven and the only way to the father. that statement makes him either a bold faced liar or we have to believe him. if he is a bold faced liar then he can't be a prophet or a good teacher.

I also love any time someone has so much pride in themselves that they can make statements like "The christians who claim that Jesus is God, has misunderstood the whole christian religion" because he basically wants to imply that he is smarter than the millions of christians that have lived for the past 2000 years, including the disciples, apostles, and those who actually walked with jesus.
If the disciples believed jesus was the son of God, i find it hard to believe that they misunderstood but that this guy figured it out.

PDawson21
01-26-2012, 11:23 AM
The Hebrew word for God is el in its singular form. The most common form used for God is elohim, which is plural in form. How can there be plural form used for only one God? Some suggest that the answer is found in the three persons of the Trinity. Others contend that the plural construct denotes a fullness of deity as opposed to plurality. I submit that both interpretations are correct.

Got this from another website, could say it in my own words, but this is pretty good. Can give more if need be.

boba
01-31-2012, 12:36 PM
The Trinity is very scriptural

Genesis 1:26

Then God said, ďLet us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.Ē

John 10:30
I and the Father are one.

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Matthew 3:16-17
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost


John 1:1-2

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

The word is Jesus.

Would you like me to continue?

mrveggieman
01-31-2012, 12:53 PM
The Trinity is very scriptural

Genesis 1:26

Then God said, ďLet us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.Ē

John 10:30
I and the Father are one.

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Matthew 3:16-17
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost


John 1:1-2

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

The word is Jesus.

Would you like me to continue?




Feel free.

bangsportscards
02-03-2012, 09:26 AM
Sometimes you gotta have faith!!!!

I did not read this entire thread.

What I am going to do is share my personal testimony.

I was 27, lost in life, and headed nowhere. I struggled with everything and came to the point of thinking what's the use anymore. I was flowing in life with no purpose at all.

Then one day out of the blue a good friend from high school saw me at the zoo, mentioned something about Jesus, and invited me to church.

I went to church for about 2 months and amazingly one day at work I felt pulled to ask Jesus to forgive my sins and take over my life. At that moment a supernatural occurance happened and it was like my eyes were opened to reality!

This all means I have accepted Jesus as my Savior and am now a Christian.

Now in regards to all this Trinity talk, you can read into it as much as you want and try to figure things out with your mind. The kicker is though at some point you'll have to accept some things on faith as you are never going to ever fully understand everything!

Like you have faith in the chair to hold you up that you may be sitting (or the vehicle you may be driving) in while using a computer, at some point it pays to have faith in God and take His Word as something that can lead and guide you into lasting FREEDOM!

I study the bible and work to find out the deep things of the Christian faith, and there's nothing wrong with this, but at some point people are going to have to risk their life with God and Jesus in control!

God bless!

Brian

duane1969
02-03-2012, 05:27 PM
I do not consider myself a Christian although I was raised in the Baptist church and spent a lot of time in the Pentecostal church after I married my wife.

Quite frankly, I find it interesting and a bit ammusing that a non-believer presumes to tell believers how wrong they are about their religion. I find it highly egocentric of a person to feel that in their position of non-belief they are some form of an authority on that which they do not subscribe.

With that said, in my opinion, belief in the Trinity works like this...

Christians - believe in it. They believe Jesus exists/existed, they believe God exists and if they are truly devout Christians then they most likely have felt the Spirit and thus, believe as well. Telling these people that what they have experienced was not real is both pointless and patronizing. Imagine trying to tell a person who just climbed out of a swimming pool that water doesn't exists...yeah, sort of like that.

Non-Christians - don't believe it and never will. How can you expect someone to believe in something they have never seen or felt? Instead they will waste countless hours trying to prove it doesn't exist because it makes them feel better that they can convince themselves that they are not being left out of something. Sort of like the kid who hates basketball because he is always the last one chosen to be on a team.

duane1969
02-03-2012, 05:29 PM
I would assume the author is attempting to argue for the "all religions are really the same" and by making jesus nothing more than a prophet then he fits in line with the islamic idea of christ. however, it is impossible to ignore jesus' claim that he is the only way to heaven and the only way to the father. that statement makes him either a bold faced liar or we have to believe him. if he is a bold faced liar then he can't be a prophet or a good teacher.



Nice. Lately I have heard a lot of this "Jesus was a prophet" commentary. Best argument I have heard yet against Jesus being just a prophet.

mrveggieman
02-06-2012, 08:14 AM
Nice. Lately I have heard a lot of this "Jesus was a prophet" commentary. Best argument I have heard yet against Jesus being just a prophet.

If you don't mind me asking you this Duane why are you not actively a Christian?