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PDawson21
01-26-2012, 01:04 PM
Pro Choice? Pro Life?

When do you think the fetus is a human?'

If a pregnant lady is murdered, should it be considered a double murder?

Keep it on topic, I know this is a touchy subject.


My opinion:

Pro Life
Moment of Conception.
Yes.

Thoughts? You can explain your position.

habsheaven
01-26-2012, 01:10 PM
Pro Choice.
Somewhere in the 3rd trimester.
Depends on stage of pregnancy at time of murder.

AUTaxMan
01-26-2012, 01:13 PM
Pro life.
Conception.
Yes, but varying degrees. If you didn't know (or didn't have any reason to know) she was pregnant, it should not be the same degree as premeditated murder.

mrveggieman
01-26-2012, 01:24 PM
Pro Life.
Life begins at conception
Yes it is a double murder.

I also would want to add that killing an unborn child is a sin but it is an even bigger sin do deny contraceptives an education to people that would avoid unwanted pregnancies and abortions.

pghin08
01-26-2012, 01:27 PM
I'm just going to say this now. This is such a touchy subject, and one that's prone to get very personal. Keep it about the issue, no personal attacks or anything. I'm glad to see it get off to a calm start.

duane1969
01-26-2012, 01:28 PM
Pro-life

The fetus is a human fetus at conception

No. If the baby deserves no protection from the mother murdering it then anybody else should be able to murder it too without penalty.

For the record, I was saved from abortion by "old outdated" ways of thinking. My biological grandmother was the legal guardian of my biological mother. My 17 year old bio-mom wanted to get an abortion but my bio-grandmother refused to allow it. Thank goodness for "backwards" thinking.

ensbergcollector
01-26-2012, 01:32 PM
pro-life
conception
not sure. i think it should but like duane pointed out, the laws don't add up

and veggie- did you really just say killing an unborn child is not as bad as denying contraceptives?

MattDMC
01-26-2012, 01:39 PM
Pro choice
End of second early 3rd trimester
Depends on the circumstances did the murderer know she was pregnant and at which stage was she.

mrveggieman
01-26-2012, 01:39 PM
pro-life
conception
not sure. i think it should but like duane pointed out, the laws don't add up

and veggie- did you really just say killing an unborn child is not as bad as denying contraceptives?


Just as bad because if someone would have had access to contraception/education they probably would not have to kill their unborn child. Also since a lot of anti abortion people are also anti sex education, anti contraception and against social programs to help children what are you going to do with all the unwanted children when they are born? I'm would never encourage anyone to have an abortion but remember the old saying an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

ensbergcollector
01-26-2012, 01:42 PM
Just as bad because if someone would have had access to contraception/education they probably would not have to kill their unborn child. Also since a lot of anti abortion people are also anti sex education, anti contraception and against social programs to help children what are you going to do with all the unwanted children when they are born? I'm would never encourage anyone to have an abortion but remember the old saying an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

wow...smh

mrveggieman
01-26-2012, 01:44 PM
wow...smh


So what should we do? Tell people that we are going to deny them access to avoid unwanted pregnancies then when they have the baby tell them tough luck?

Star_Cards
01-26-2012, 01:45 PM
I'm pro choice with a limit a some point within the pregnancy. I'm not sure of that limit as I haven't ever had to decide if this was a viable option for me nor do I know the exact stages of development.

Star_Cards
01-26-2012, 01:47 PM
If a pregnant lady is murdered, should it be considered a double murder?

Oh and to answer this question. Yes. it should be. Just because the woman would have the right to choose abortion for herself doesn't mean the murderer does.

PDawson21
01-26-2012, 01:47 PM
Just as bad because if someone would have had access to contraception/education they probably would not have to kill their unborn child. Also since a lot of anti abortion people are also anti sex education, anti contraception and against social programs to help children what are you going to do with all the unwanted children when they are born? I'm would never encourage anyone to have an abortion but remember the old saying an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.


Im all for sex-ed, etc, but there is a difference between a pill and a child, right? Please clarify.

duane1969
01-26-2012, 01:50 PM
Just as bad because if someone would have had access to contraception/education they probably would not have to kill their unborn child. Also since a lot of anti abortion people are also anti sex education, anti contraception and against social programs to help children what are you going to do with all the unwanted children when they are born? I'm would never encourage anyone to have an abortion but remember the old saying an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.



and veggie- did you really just say killing an unborn child is not as bad as denying contraceptives?


wow...smh


So what should we do? Tell people that we are going to deny them access to avoid unwanted pregnancies then when they have the baby tell them tough luck?


Im all for sex-ed, etc, but there is a difference between a pill and a child, right? Please clarify.

KEEP IT ON TOPIC PLEASE. A debate about sex-ed is already on-going in another thread.

mrveggieman
01-26-2012, 01:51 PM
Im all for sex-ed, etc, but there is a difference between a pill and a child, right? Please clarify.

Yes it is a difference but all of us would agree weather we are for or against abortion that it is better for a woman not have an unwanted pregnancy in the first place than to chose weather to have an abortion or not. Some of our more conservative friends would like to deny a woman (or man) for that matter the right to protect themselves from unwanted pregnancies and stds. SMH.

Star_Cards
01-26-2012, 01:52 PM
and veggie- did you really just say killing an unborn child is not as bad as denying contraceptives?

while I don't agree that it's the same thing wouldn't the handing out condoms also reduce the rate of abortions. I think it has the potential to. just a thought.

mrveggieman
01-26-2012, 01:53 PM
KEEP IT ON TOPIC PLEASE. A debate about sex-ed is already on-going in another thread.

Sorry if I veered off topic but I am against abortion and want people to have access to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

ensbergcollector
01-26-2012, 01:53 PM
sorry, i have moved my response to the sex education thread

theonedru
01-26-2012, 02:03 PM
If you are a sexually active female there will be times when you will become pregnant and your body through various reasons will naturally abort the fetus most times without the person ever notice. That being said you would have to hold most all females in the same contempt?

mrveggieman
01-26-2012, 02:08 PM
If you are a sexually active female there will be times when you will become pregnant and your body through various reasons will naturally abort the fetus most times without the person ever notice. That being said you would have to hold most all females in the same contempt?


Not the same thing.

habsheaven
01-26-2012, 02:08 PM
If you are a sexually active female there will be times when you will become pregnant and your body through various reasons will naturally abort the fetus most times without the person ever notice. That being said you would have to hold most all females in the same contempt?

I have no idea what this means.

tsjct
01-26-2012, 02:11 PM
I am in the middle. I adopted my little girl and my wife and i were there at birth with the biological mother. She has brought so much joy to our lives that we thought we would never be able to have. That being said i do not want to force a woman to have to give birth in the case of Incest or Rape. Very touchy subject and i can see it from both sides.

tsjct
01-26-2012, 02:16 PM
If you are a sexually active female there will be times when you will become pregnant and your body through various reasons will naturally abort the fetus most times without the person ever notice. That being said you would have to hold most all females in the same contempt?

That is absolutely crazy!! My wife and i tried to have a child for 5 years and went through invitro 3 times. She got pregnant several times but she had miscarriage each time. The worst being when she was so far a long she could not have a DNC done and had to just let her body do the miscarriage. You have NO IDEA what your comparing things too and you need to be very careful with accusations on subjects like this as there are people here like myself that have had to go through this.

duane1969
01-26-2012, 02:18 PM
If you are a sexually active female there will be times when you will become pregnant and your body through various reasons will naturally abort the fetus most times without the person ever notice. That being said you would have to hold most all females in the same contempt?

Abortion = voluntary
Miscarriage = involuntary

Hardly a logical comparison.

habsheaven
01-26-2012, 02:24 PM
I am in the middle. I adopted my little girl and my wife and i were there at birth with the biological mother. She has brought so much joy to our lives that we thought we would never be able to have. That being said i do not want to force a woman to have to give birth in the case of Incest or Rape. Very touchy subject and i can see it from both sides.

This is an issue that I raised in the last abortion debate. I find there are many people that believe life starts at conception but they are okay with allowing victims of rape and incest to get abortions. I cannot reconcile the two.

habsheaven
01-26-2012, 02:26 PM
That is absolutely crazy!! My wife and i tried to have a child for 5 years and went through invitro 3 times. She got pregnant several times but she had miscarriage each time. The worst being when she was so far a long she could not have a DNC done and had to just let her body do the miscarriage. You have NO IDEA what your comparing things too and you need to be very careful with accusations on subjects like this as there are people here like myself that have had to go through this.

This is why I had no idea what he was trying to say.

PDawson21
01-26-2012, 02:32 PM
This is an issue that I raised in the last abortion debate. I find there are many people that believe life starts at conception but they are okay with allowing victims of rape and incest to get abortions. I cannot reconcile the two.


I believe that life starts at conception and no matter the case, the lady shoyld have the baby. I agree with you. Gotta be consistent

BGT Masters
01-26-2012, 03:16 PM
Pro Choice? Pro Life?

When do you think the fetus is a human?'

If a pregnant lady is murdered, should it be considered a double murder?

Keep it on topic, I know this is a touchy subject.


My opinion:

Pro Life
Moment of Conception.
Yes.

Thoughts? You can explain your position.

Pro Life (Unless under certain circumstances, like rape)
MOC
No.

Star_Cards
01-26-2012, 03:22 PM
Since a lot of people are posting exceptions for abortions as incest or rape let me ask how people feel about birth defects. not talking about the ones that people can still live long normal lives, but the ones where the babies only live short painful lives once they are birthed?

also if you say it's okay in cases of rape and incest... how do you propose they determine a woman was raped or impregnated by a family member in order to give clearance to go ahead with that abortion? making it legal in cases of incest or rape would be very difficult to regulate.

BGT Masters
01-26-2012, 03:37 PM
Determining it would be a tough one in some cases where the woman possibly just might be saying she was raped to get an abortion. (If it weren't legal). However I can;t see how forcing a woman to give birth to a child when she didn't voluntarily have sex with someone.

Its bad enough a woman might be raped but making her give birth to a child that is half the rapist is just wrong. I'm against abortion myself but like most things there is a grey area. How would someone feel if your wife was raped and you were forced to have the child and raise it as your own? Some might be able to over look it, I wouldn't.

duane1969
01-26-2012, 03:37 PM
Since a lot of people are posting exceptions for abortions as incest or rape let me ask how people feel about birth defects. not talking about the ones that people can still live long normal lives, but the ones where the babies only live short painful lives once they are birthed?

also if you say it's okay in cases of rape and incest... how do you propose they determine a woman was raped or impregnated by a family member in order to give clearance to go ahead with that abortion? making it legal in cases of incest or rape would be very difficult to regulate.

Aborting a fetus because some test shows it will have birth defects is both wrong (elitist society?) and a bad choice (see below).

When my wife was pregnant with our oldest son she was very, very sick. The doctor insisted that she have an abortion and told her that the baby would definitely have birth defects and/or be mentally impaired. We refused to abort. He was so angry that we would not comply with his abortion demand that he refused to see my wife anymore.

Our "physically defective" son was a multisport athlete (football, track, wrestling, cross country) and placed 5th in the state in wrestling as a senior. His "mental impairment" limited him to only 3 college scholarships after having a 3.6 GPA in high school.

duane1969
01-26-2012, 03:39 PM
Determining it would be a tough one in some cases where the woman possibly just might be saying she was raped to get an abortion. (If it weren't legal). However I can;t see how forcing a woman to give birth to a child when she didn't voluntarily have sex with someone.

Its bad enough a woman might be raped but making her give birth to a child that is half the rapist is just wrong. I'm against abortion myself but like most things there is a grey area. How would someone feel if your wife was raped and you were forced to have the child and raise it as your own? Some might be able to over look it, I wouldn't.

I don't disagree with your position but there is no reason you would be forced to raise it as your own. Adoption is an option.

habsheaven
01-26-2012, 03:52 PM
Determining it would be a tough one in some cases where the woman possibly just might be saying she was raped to get an abortion. (If it weren't legal). However I can;t see how forcing a woman to give birth to a child when she didn't voluntarily have sex with someone.

Its bad enough a woman might be raped but making her give birth to a child that is half the rapist is just wrong. I'm against abortion myself but like most things there is a grey area. How would someone feel if your wife was raped and you were forced to have the child and raise it as your own? Some might be able to over look it, I wouldn't.

See this is where I have a problem. You stated that LIFE begins at conception in your earlier post, yet you would be okay with taking that life in order to save the woman from some emotional pain/stress. Why is that? Do you not VALUE that life as much as you value the life of another human being?

BGT Masters
01-26-2012, 03:56 PM
Good point, I honestly never thought of that because it would never cross my mind to put a child up for adoption. I should change what I said, and say a woman shouldn't be forced to carry and give birth to a child who she doesn't want, who was conceived by her getting raped. Its bad enough what they had to go through, and have to live with for their entire lives. The mental stress dealing with it must be unbearable, let alone dealing with it while being pregnant with the person's child.

I am more on the common sense stance of it, if you don't want children don't have sex. If you want to have sex, but are willing to take the one in a million chance, wear protection. If the protection doesn't work man up and deal with it. I should also say even though I believe you are human at the MOC, I am not against the morning after pill. I guess that's the gray area of the topic for me.

AUTaxMan
01-26-2012, 03:59 PM
I find myself agreeing with habs twice in one day. Logic provides no exceptions to the abortion debate, even in the most unsavory of circumstances, if you are truly pro-life and believe that life begins at conception. When I was younger, I believed in exceptions for rape and incest, but I just can't do it now.

BGT Masters
01-26-2012, 04:01 PM
See this is where I have a problem. You stated that LIFE begins at conception in your earlier post, yet you would be okay with taking that life in order to save the woman from some emotional pain/stress. Why is that? Do you not VALUE that life as much as you value the life of another human being?


As I just mentioned in my last post, before I see you wrote this. Everything has a grey area. I don't believe in taking a human life, but if someone is in my house beating my girlfriend to an inch of her life, I'd take their life and not think twice about it. There are gray area's with most things in life. Not many things in life are so cut and dry. So in this gray area, if a woman is raped, I think then the woman should have a choice. To not think that, is sickening and disturbing even for someone who is pro life. Just because I am pro life doesn't mean I'm so stupid I must stick to my guns no matter what.

habsheaven
01-26-2012, 04:20 PM
As I just mentioned in my last post, before I see you wrote this. Everything has a grey area. I don't believe in taking a human life, but if someone is in my house beating my girlfriend to an inch of her life, I'd take their life and not think twice about it. There are gray area's with most things in life. Not many things in life are so cut and dry. So in this gray area, if a woman is raped, I think then the woman should have a choice. To not think that, is sickening and disturbing even for someone who is pro life. Just because I am pro life doesn't mean I'm so stupid I must stick to my guns no matter what.

I agree with you. I am of the belief that although life can be argued to begin at conception, I do not believe that life should be valued equally to other stages of life.

This is my interpretation of that grey area you speak of. I think that is why so many people "accept" abortion as a legal option for others but not a moral option for themselves. For example, it would never be an option for me and my wife but I do not want to restrict that choice on other women in most cases.

BGT Masters
01-26-2012, 04:41 PM
Since we had to list one or the other I listed Pro Life. However in all honesty like I mentioned I am more 95% Pro Life 5% Pro Choice. So I guess in that essence I have to be pro choice. I believe that if two adults make a conscious decision to have sex and they get pregnant, they shouldn't be given an out like abortion, adoption yes, abortion no. The 5% comes in, to rapes, morning after stuff, even if its in a certain amount of time and the birth would likely kill the mother. Just because I am Pro Life doesn't mean I wouldn't vote Pro Choice.

My personal believes don't out weigh the rights of many and that grey area we speak of. In a perfect world, where people aren't raped, and some pregnancy's didn't risk the mother's life I would be 100% Pro Life unfortunately that's not the case and never will be. Its a really touchy topic, no matter how you look at it. To me it just seems wrong to have unprotected sex, get pregnant, then get abortions.


Your interpretation BTW is pretty spot on for me.

gatorboymike
01-26-2012, 05:45 PM
Interesting how people who claim to be "pro-life" are almost always pro-war, pro-death penalty, anti-sex education, anti-contraception, anti-gun control and anti-child services, and demand that pregnant mothers go through with deliveries that will almost certainly kill both them and the baby. Interesting how whenever you hear about doctors or their patients being murdered, the killer is always a pro-lifer ranting and screeching about the "sanctity of life." Oh yes..."Life is sacred, therefore I'm going to kill you." Makes about as much sense as anything else that comes out of the religious right.

Stop, I know what you're going to say. "You can't compare being pro-war, pro-death penalty and anti-gun control to being pro-life, because killing in wartime, killing convicted criminals and killing in 'self-defense' are NOT murder, but abortion IS murder!" Yeah, you know what? That's a pointless argument. Humans have been debating and reversing on exactly which circumstances of killing are and are not murder for centuries, and it's all completely culturally relative and self-serving. Killing someone from a different tribe used to not be murder. Killing a slave used to not be murder. Killing political dissidents used to not be murder. Killing prisoners of war used to not be murder. Stop trying to pretend there's some objective standard of when it is OK to kill someone and when it is not OK to kill someone. It's nothing more than an Us vs. Them thing, pure tribalism, and that's all it has ever been and will ever be. When someone from Us gets killed, it's murder. When someone from Them gets killed, it's not murder. A fetus is part of Us, so it's not OK to kill a fetus. An abortion doctor is part of Them, so it is OK to kill an abortion doctor. Well, you know what? If some invading army from a foreign nation invaded your hometown and killed your family under the pretext of war, you know you'd be the first one to jump up and decry it as murder, but when your country's army does that to some other country, then it's not murder? Pppbbphph.

Most pro-lifers have no concern for the child's well-being at all, however much they might pretend they do. What if the child won't survive the delivery? "We don't care, have it anyway." What if the mother won't survive the delivery? "We don't care, have it anyway." What if neither the mother nor the child will survive the delivery? "We don't care, have it anyway." What if the child has a horrible birth defect that will make its life agonizing and short? "We don't care, have it anyway." What if the parents are completely unfit to take care of a child? "We don't care, have it anyway." What if the parents are willing to care for the child but not able? "We don't care, have it anyway. We want to shut down any and all government assistance to people like you. You should have thought of that before you had sex." Oh, there we go. That's what this is all about, isn't it? They just want to use the child as a means to punish the parents. Basically, this is what they have to say to anyone considering abortion: "We don't care if you were raped by your uncle and it would kill you and the baby to go through with the birth. You deserve everything that happened to you. So you freakin' have the baby, and you freakin' die, and you freakin' love it, because then you and your baby can be together in heaven. The alternative is you go to hell. Well, actually, we think you'll go to hell no matter what you do, and we love that. Now get out of here, we're in the middle of a game of golf."

The real reasons they're against abortion are these:
- If someone has an abortion, that means they had sex, which means they were not obeying my religion.
- Every fetus that gets aborted is another one that won't grow up to give money to my church.
- Every fetus that gets aborted is one less vote for Rick Perry, or whatever fundigelical whack-job politician I'm drooling over this week.

ensbergcollector
01-26-2012, 06:00 PM
Interesting how people who claim to be "pro-life" are almost always pro-war, pro-death penalty, anti-sex education, anti-contraception, anti-gun control and anti-child services, and demand that pregnant mothers go through with deliveries that will almost certainly kill both them and the baby. Interesting how whenever you hear about doctors or their patients being murdered, the killer is always a pro-lifer ranting and screeching about the "sanctity of life." Oh yes..."Life is sacred, therefore I'm going to kill you." Makes about as much sense as anything else that comes out of the religious right.

Stop, I know what you're going to say. "You can't compare being pro-war, pro-death penalty and anti-gun control to being pro-life, because killing in wartime, killing convicted criminals and killing in 'self-defense' are NOT murder, but abortion IS murder!" Yeah, you know what? That's a pointless argument. Humans have been debating and reversing on exactly which circumstances of killing are and are not murder for centuries, and it's all completely culturally relative and self-serving. Killing someone from a different tribe used to not be murder. Killing a slave used to not be murder. Killing political dissidents used to not be murder. Killing prisoners of war used to not be murder. Stop trying to pretend there's some objective standard of when it is OK to kill someone and when it is not OK to kill someone. It's nothing more than an Us vs. Them thing, pure tribalism, and that's all it has ever been and will ever be. When someone from Us gets killed, it's murder. When someone from Them gets killed, it's not murder. A fetus is part of Us, so it's not OK to kill a fetus. An abortion doctor is part of Them, so it is OK to kill an abortion doctor. Well, you know what? If some invading army from a foreign nation invaded your hometown and killed your family under the pretext of war, you know you'd be the first one to jump up and decry it as murder, but when your country's army does that to some other country, then it's not murder? Pppbbphph.

Most pro-lifers have no concern for the child's well-being at all, however much they might pretend they do. What if the child won't survive the delivery? "We don't care, have it anyway." What if the mother won't survive the delivery? "We don't care, have it anyway." What if neither the mother nor the child will survive the delivery? "We don't care, have it anyway." What if the child has a horrible birth defect that will make its life agonizing and short? "We don't care, have it anyway." What if the parents are completely unfit to take care of a child? "We don't care, have it anyway." What if the parents are willing to care for the child but not able? "We don't care, have it anyway. We want to shut down any and all government assistance to people like you. You should have thought of that before you had sex." Oh, there we go. That's what this is all about, isn't it? They just want to use the child as a means to punish the parents. Basically, this is what they have to say to anyone considering abortion: "We don't care if you were raped by your uncle and it would kill you and the baby to go through with the birth. You deserve everything that happened to you. So you freakin' have the baby, and you freakin' die, and you freakin' love it, because then you and your baby can be together in heaven. The alternative is you go to hell. Well, actually, we think you'll go to hell no matter what you do, and we love that. Now get out of here, we're in the middle of a game of golf."

The real reasons they're against abortion are these:
- If someone has an abortion, that means they had sex, which means they were not obeying my religion.
- Every fetus that gets aborted is another one that won't grow up to give money to my church.
- Every fetus that gets aborted is one less vote for Rick Perry, or whatever fundigelical whack-job politician I'm drooling over this week.

dude, you are off your rocker, you know that. saying something is not a valid argument does not make it not a valid argument.

the simple fact that you say we can't point out a difference in aborting a child and sentencing a serial killer to death shows that you have no common sense at all. your "real reasons" are obscene and ridiculous. and guess what, you stating them doesn't make them fact. and again, sorry if I don't take a proud atheists word as to what christians are "really" thinking.


also, i will not comment back on this because you are obviously trying to derail a thread that is trying to stay on topic. instead you are just trying to use any thread you can as an anti-christian thread

PDawson21
01-26-2012, 06:30 PM
dude, you are off your rocker, you know that. saying something is not a valid argument does not make it not a valid argument.

the simple fact that you say we can't point out a difference in aborting a child and sentencing a serial killer to death shows that you have no common sense at all. your "real reasons" are obscene and ridiculous. and guess what, you stating them doesn't make them fact. and again, sorry if I don't take a proud atheists word as to what christians are "really" thinking.


also, i will not comment back on this because you are obviously trying to derail a thread that is trying to stay on topic. instead you are just trying to use any thread you can as an anti-christian thread



Totally agree with Ens

AUTaxMan
01-26-2012, 06:40 PM
The real reasons they're against abortion are these:
- If someone has an abortion, that means they had sex, which means they were not obeying my religion.
- Every fetus that gets aborted is another one that won't grow up to give money to my church.
- Every fetus that gets aborted is one less vote for Rick Perry, or whatever fundigelical whack-job politician I'm drooling over this week.

Give it a rest, man. Why do you have so much hatred inside?

gatorboymike
01-26-2012, 06:49 PM
Give it a rest, man. Why do you have so much hatred inside?

It's not something I can explain to someone who hasn't been a witness to much of my life.

Although today, I have so much hatred inside because of overcharging auto mechanics.

AUTaxMan
01-26-2012, 06:56 PM
It's not something I can explain to someone who hasn't been a witness to much of my life.

Although today, I have so much hatred inside because of overcharging auto mechanics.

I wish you'd focus that hatred into something positive, for your sake. Except for the hatred of overcharging auto mechanics. I'm with you on that one.

duane1969
01-26-2012, 06:57 PM
Keep it on topic please (again). Not really feeling like seeing yet another thread devolve into a religion bashing thread.

gatorboymike
01-26-2012, 07:22 PM
How am I supposed to focus hatred of pro-lifers into something positive? I've tried to be civil with them before and walked away feeling like I'd been held hostage and drenched in sewer water. It's...

AUTaxMan
01-26-2012, 07:40 PM
I was just talking about the time and energy you expend hating pretty much everything in general.

gatorboymike
01-26-2012, 07:49 PM
I was just talking about the time and energy you expend hating pretty much everything in general.

Well, I don't like the human race in general. Never have.

mrveggieman
01-27-2012, 09:19 AM
I have been reading through the past few posts and although what our good friend GBM was saying was kind of over the top I agree with the concept of what he was saying. Yes I am against abortion in most circumstances but I do agree with him that most (not all because I am in the minority as well) of pro life people are also pro war, anti sex education, anti contraception and against services for the poor. Like GBM alluded to it has nothing to do with caring for the unborn children but it is a way to control peoples bodies and beliefs. I challenge anyone on here who claims to be against abortion to practice what you preach. If you really care for the unborn stop fighting against people having access to sex education and contraception and stop voting to end services for the disadvantage that will help these unborn children after they are born if you really do love them as you claim that you do. Sorry if I veered off topic but I had to get this off my chest.

AUTaxMan
01-27-2012, 09:28 AM
I do agree with him that most (not all because I am in the minority as well) of pro life people are also pro war, anti sex education, anti contraception and against services for the poor.

This is bs. You are painting with way too broad of a brush.

mrveggieman
01-27-2012, 09:38 AM
This is bs. You are painting with way too broad of a brush.


Mr taxman did you read my whole post or just pick and chose one sentence? Since you are also against abortion what would you propose do reduce the instances of unwanted pregnancies? Also for those women who do keep their babies what do you propose that we as a society do to help them?

habsheaven
01-27-2012, 09:40 AM
I agree with GBM in one respect. His whole rant about "what is murder and what is not" goes hand-in-hand with my belief that everyone "values" life differently depending on who they are killing and because of that they are willing to accept some types of killing.

AUTaxMan
01-27-2012, 10:56 AM
Mr taxman did you read my whole post or just pick and chose one sentence? Since you are also against abortion what would you propose do reduce the instances of unwanted pregnancies? Also for those women who do keep their babies what do you propose that we as a society do to help them?

I read the whole post, but that sentence stands on its own. Do you believe what you wrote or not, because it is nonsense. It may be what you perceive or what to believe, but that doesn't make it so.

To reduce unwanted pregnancies, I would teach abstinence as the only fool-proof way to avoid unwanted pregnancies. If kids are willing to take the risk of having sex, you teach them that there are contraceptives and birth control devices available, but you don't subsidize a purely personal and recreational activity. If you can't afford it, tough toenails. That's your problem. Not mine.

You could also explain to them that only 8% of people who (a) graduate high school, (b) get a job, and (c) marry before they have kids live below the poverty line. If you fail to do one of those things, there is close to an 80% chance that you will be poor.

At this point, they have the knowledge to make an informed decision--have sex and maybe have a baby (even with protection), which increases their likelihood of living in poverty tenfold, or not have sex and definitely don't have a baby.

You also need to teach them that if they have a child and want to keep it, they have the responsibility to take care of it. If they don't, the state will take it from them.

I understand this is a complicated issue, but that's my general view.

ensbergcollector
01-27-2012, 11:43 AM
veggie- you keep throwing out this idea that so many people are anti-sex education. In fact, i think half your argument hinges on the idea that so many people are against sex education. guess what, there aren't that many people against sex education. you use that to try and win the argument but at the end of the day, the majority of schools have sex ed so you can't keep blaming abstinence education on teenage pregnancies.


also, if people can't see the difference in killing an unborn child and killing a murder who has been sentenced to the death penalty, then this country has much larger issues than sex ed.

mrveggieman
01-27-2012, 12:22 PM
I read the whole post, but that sentence stands on its own. Do you believe what you wrote or not, because it is nonsense. It may be what you perceive or what to believe, but that doesn't make it so.

To reduce unwanted pregnancies, I would teach abstinence as the only fool-proof way to avoid unwanted pregnancies. If kids are willing to take the risk of having sex, you teach them that there are contraceptives and birth control devices available, but you don't subsidize a purely personal and recreational activity. If you can't afford it, tough toenails. That's your problem. Not mine.

You could also explain to them that only 8% of people who (a) graduate high school, (b) get a job, and (c) marry before they have kids live below the poverty line. If you fail to do one of those things, there is close to an 80% chance that you will be poor.

At this point, they have the knowledge to make an informed decision--have sex and maybe have a baby (even with protection), which increases their likelihood of living in poverty tenfold, or not have sex and definitely don't have a baby.

You also need to teach them that if they have a child and want to keep it, they have the responsibility to take care of it. If they don't, the state will take it from them.

I understand this is a complicated issue, but that's my general view.


You are on point however I disagree with you being against "subsidizing a recreactional activity." This is not like anyone is asking for money to buy baseball cards of download music off the internet. This is a public health and safety issue and the gov't has a vested intrested in distributing contraceptives to all their citizens in an gov't bulding that it deems neccessary.

mrveggieman
01-27-2012, 12:25 PM
veggie- you keep throwing out this idea that so many people are anti-sex education. In fact, i think half your argument hinges on the idea that so many people are against sex education. guess what, there aren't that many people against sex education. you use that to try and win the argument but at the end of the day, the majority of schools have sex ed so you can't keep blaming abstinence education on teenage pregnancies.


also, if people can't see the difference in killing an unborn child and killing a murder who has been sentenced to the death penalty, then this country has much larger issues than sex ed.

Abstinence only education is not education but the spreading of ignorance. BTW I do agree with the death penalty under certian circumstance but I do have issues with the way some people (mainly the conservatives) want it to be administered but that is for a different discussion.

ensbergcollector
01-27-2012, 01:29 PM
Abstinence only education is not education but the spreading of ignorance. BTW I do agree with the death penalty under certian circumstance but I do have issues with the way some people (mainly the conservatives) want it to be administered but that is for a different discussion.

ok, couple of things:

1. people are not advocating abstinence based education so why do you keep talking about it?

2. care to share with me the only 100% fool proof way to avoid unwanted pregnancy and disease? that would be abstinence. Now, I am on the record as supporting a complete sex ed class but to call abstinence education ignorant is ignorant. I get that kids are not going to stop having sex. That doesn't make encouraging them to be abstinent ignorant.

mrveggieman
01-27-2012, 01:50 PM
ok, couple of things:

1. people are not advocating abstinence based education so why do you keep talking about it?

2. care to share with me the only 100% fool proof way to avoid unwanted pregnancy and disease? that would be abstinence. Now, I am on the record as supporting a complete sex ed class but to call abstinence education ignorant is ignorant. I get that kids are not going to stop having sex. That doesn't make encouraging them to be abstinent ignorant.


1. Some conservative people (not you) do believe in and promote abstinance only education which has been proven to be a failure. Since you say that you are not in favor of that we can move on.

2. Yes abstinence is the only way to avoid pregancy (unless you are the virgin mary). I am not saying teaching kids about abstinance is ignorant but teaching abstinence only is just plain ignorant. Even if kids don't have sex until they turn 18/21/or get married they are still going to need to learn about it eventually. If they graduate from high school never learning about sex where are they going to get their information?