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pspstatus
02-03-2012, 08:55 PM
When I was younger I believed pretty firmly in the presence of God and Jesus. I wouldn't have called myself devout but I believed and prayed. As I got older I began to have questions. Some things just didn't make sense and I couldn't reconcile these things with how I felt in my heart.

1. Why is slavery not deemed to be completely unacceptable? Why is it even at times divinely sanctioned?

2. Why are women not treated equally to men? Why are men allowed to "take" wives? Why are women considered unclean during menstruation, which I imagine is a natural process created by God? Why is the kidnapping and rape of women at times divinely sanctioned? How does it make sense to consider a baby impure because it came from a woman?

3. Why is the Bible so violent? Is it directly related to a desire to control? Is that why God insists on being feared?

4. Why does God say to honor your mother and father, then ask you to forsake them and anyone else for him?

5. Why does God need to be constantly worshipped and glorified? Why does he demand such intense devotion? Why would he let Satan destroy Job's life just to prove how devoted he was to him? Why did he feel it was so important to prove Satan wrong? Why was God so easily tempted?

6. If the only way to reach God is through Jesus what happened to the souls of people born before Jesus?

7. Why are some of the stories and persons from the Bible so similar to the stories and persons from other ancient civilizations?

8. Why does God seem so concerned with human sexuality? If I believe that homosexuality is not a chosen lifestyle through the experience of having a gay friend and knowing him since he was very young how can I reconcile that with what the Bible says?

9. Why do so many of the views and messages conveyed in the Bible seem to directly reflect widely held human views of the time? That is to say why do views on things such as slavery, women, sexuality seem as though they are period specific and not timeless?

10. Is it possible that the Bible is a collection of some factual evidence, stories, and beliefs of its writers produced as a tool to gain control of the masses? Why are there so many versions of the Bible? Why were people or institutions such as the Church of England able to produce new translations that seemed to fit beliefs more akin to their religious structure?

11. If I disagree with one of God's views on something because of what I truly believe in my heart what does that mean?

These are questions that I have posed to myself over the years. These are things that just don't make complete sense to me, and for which reasons such as having faith, because it's in the Bible, and it's just the truth are not satisfying answers.

pspstatus
02-03-2012, 09:00 PM
Oh man I just noticed the above post was my 666th post on this site.

habsheaven
02-03-2012, 10:44 PM
I could answer all those questions with the same reply, but I think you already know what the answer is. It would be nice to get CLEAR, CONCISE answers from those that do believe but I am sure they won't be able to reply with anything other than abstract thoughts.

andrewhoya
02-04-2012, 06:30 AM
I am a Christian, and have some of the same questions that you do. Scripture contradicts itself so many times it isn't even funny.

mrveggieman
02-06-2012, 08:20 AM
Oh man I just noticed the above post was my 666th post on this site.


Oh no, you now have the mark of the beast. :sign0020:

Seriously though you bought up some good points and I would love to hear what some of our strong christian members have to say.

ensbergcollector
02-06-2012, 09:52 AM
Oh no, you now have the mark of the beast. :sign0020:

Seriously though you bought up some good points and I would love to hear what some of our strong christian members have to say.

hey man, you are a christian too, feel free to respond.


i wasn't on much this weekend so i didn't have a chance to reply. it might be tomorrow before i have time but i will do my best to reply

mrveggieman
02-06-2012, 10:23 AM
hey man, you are a christian too, feel free to respond.


i wasn't on much this weekend so i didn't have a chance to reply. it might be tomorrow before i have time but i will do my best to reply


I didn't think that I was christian enough for some of the people on here. :sign0020: Seriously though my opinions on various issues often disagree with a lot of christians so when I speak my opinions I am speaking from my own prespective and not representing any particular religious or political group. That being said I'm not sure what to make of the OP's questions. He does bring up some good points especially with slavery and how people used to bible to justify slavery even though no one in today's day and time would be taken seriously if they try to do that now.

shrewsbury
02-07-2012, 11:05 AM
scripture has been written and modified by humans for literally thousands of years. what we deem to be the bible is not all of the works associated with the religion, but what man has chosen.

as to answering your questions here on this thread, well i would not say i have any answers, but if you would like an educated opinion, then pm me.

pspstatus
02-08-2012, 06:56 PM
scripture has been written and modified by humans for literally thousands of years. what we deem to be the bible is not all of the works associated with the religion, but what man has chosen.

as to answering your questions here on this thread, well i would not say i have any answers, but if you would like an educated opinion, then pm me.


I appreciate your thoughts on the subject. I would Pm you but I'd prefer to keep this a public discussion.

That being said. With all the talk about religion here lately especially Christianity I'm a little taken aback that no one has anything they'd like to share in regards to these questions that I've posed.

ensbergcollector
02-08-2012, 07:09 PM
I appreciate your thoughts on the subject. I would Pm you but I'd prefer to keep this a public discussion.

That being said. With all the talk about religion here lately especially Christianity I'm a little taken aback that no one has anything they'd like to share in regards to these questions that I've posed.

pretty much any religion talk quickly becomes a christian bashing thread so there is very little motivation because most do not think this group is capable of a rational conversation about religion. I haven't because i would like to put time into my answers and my work week is insane this week and I simply haven't have the time.

pspstatus
02-08-2012, 07:40 PM
I hope this doesn't become a Christian bashing thread. I just figured since it seems like there are some people on here with strong religious views and knowledge that they could answer questions I have. I could have made a list of questions about any other religion but Christianity is the most prominent one in my location. It seems to be here as well.

I certainly do have my own opinions on the answers to these questions and if I disagree with anyone else's perspective please don't mistake that for bashing.

shrewsbury
02-08-2012, 07:47 PM
well, first thing first, it is just my opinion, so take it how you like, no right or wrong here.

we could start with the simple idea of translation, context, and copying.

translation of one language to another is tricky, and without context mis-interpretation is rampant. this is true with every language and is often seen.

so how accurate are things written, how accurate is translation, and without being in the times, customs, and conditions of the original writers, can we ever understand?

then the fact that humans decided what to leave in and what to take out makes things even trickier, then we must understand the new testament is not handed from God, but hand chosen by humans who thought they were closer to God and wiser than all of us.

then from a christian standpoint, jesus made clear, that he was the bringer of a new way and all things from the past were no longer applicable to the current or future.

God is not outward, but inward and this is where the answers are.
people are brutal and it is easier to be mean and take others things, than it is to be nice and work for your own. some would like to blame the devil, but perhaps, they should look in the mirror.

the bible, churches, and people can help us explore what our personal views are, but they cannot answer anything.

questioning is good, in fact is a much needed thing.

God will still be there no matter how long it takes for us to see.

take care,

jay

and just so you know i am far from a religious fanatic, but have no problem sharing my own opinions, whether perceived as right or wrong, there just opinions and everyone has one.

mrveggieman
02-09-2012, 08:18 AM
Even though P&R especially the R part can get real heated I really appreciate the discussions and have actually learned a lot. That being said some of our more stronger christian members like to post on here. And they have every right to do so. However they often post to the efect that christanity is the superior religion and all other religions are false and will lead you to hell. Again that is their right to believe what they like. However when they do someone calls them out to demand proof they say cause the bible says so which again is there right to belive such but it is not enough to meet the burden of proof for a neutral observer. So most of the christianity or bible discussions end up going around in circles with no clear answers to the OP's original questions. People take it as a christian bashing discussion but we are just holding christanity up to the same standards that we would expect any other religious or political belief.

Star_Cards
02-09-2012, 10:14 AM
Even though P&R especially the R part can get real heated I really appreciate the discussions and have actually learned a lot. That being said some of our more stronger christian members like to post on here. And they have every right to do so. However they often post to the efect that christanity is the superior religion and all other religions are false and will lead you to hell. Again that is their right to believe what they like. However when they do someone calls them out to demand proof they say cause the bible says so which again is there right to belive such but it is not enough to meet the burden of proof for a neutral observer. So most of the christianity or bible discussions end up going around in circles with no clear answers to the OP's original questions. People take it as a christian bashing discussion but we are just holding christanity up to the same standards that we would expect any other religious or political belief.

I agree with this for the most part. I know there have been some demeaning things said about christianity, but for the most part posters are respectful even though they disagree... at least I try to carry myself that way. I have no issue with people being christian or any religion. I just take offense to the ones that think it's okay to apply that religions beliefs to a whole society.

ensbergcollector
02-09-2012, 10:48 AM
Even though P&R especially the R part can get real heated I really appreciate the discussions and have actually learned a lot. That being said some of our more stronger christian members like to post on here. And they have every right to do so. However they often post to the efect that christanity is the superior religion and all other religions are false and will lead you to hell. Again that is their right to believe what they like. However when they do someone calls them out to demand proof they say cause the bible says so which again is there right to belive such but it is not enough to meet the burden of proof for a neutral observer. So most of the christianity or bible discussions end up going around in circles with no clear answers to the OP's original questions. People take it as a christian bashing discussion but we are just holding christanity up to the same standards that we would expect any other religious or political belief.

give me a break man. we have had threads about 5 year old muslims being brainwashed to hate jewish people and by the second post it was an anti-christian thread.

none of the regular posters post to declare the superiority of christianity. The christians here answer specific questions which then open the floodgates.

as for your last line, come one man. this forum holds nothing to the "standard" that it holds christianity. in no other thread does having an opinion warrant verbal attacks.

mrveggieman
02-09-2012, 11:19 AM
give me a break man. we have had threads about 5 year old muslims being brainwashed to hate jewish people and by the second post it was an anti-christian thread.

none of the regular posters post to declare the superiority of christianity. The christians here answer specific questions which then open the floodgates.

as for your last line, come one man. this forum holds nothing to the "standard" that it holds christianity. in no other thread does having an opinion warrant verbal attacks.


I'm really sorry that you feel that way but I couldn't disagree with you more. I understand that Christanity just like any other religion for that matter is based on faith which I am cool with. However just because you have faith in your religion dosen't excuse you from being asked to provide proof when you make certian claims about your religion. Just saying that something is what it is because you believe in your heart to be true dosen't make it so.

pspstatus
02-09-2012, 06:23 PM
well, first thing first, it is just my opinion, so take it how you like, no right or wrong here.

we could start with the simple idea of translation, context, and copying.

translation of one language to another is tricky, and without context mis-interpretation is rampant. this is true with every language and is often seen.

so how accurate are things written, how accurate is translation, and without being in the times, customs, and conditions of the original writers, can we ever understand?

then the fact that humans decided what to leave in and what to take out makes things even trickier, then we must understand the new testament is not handed from God, but hand chosen by humans who thought they were closer to God and wiser than all of us.

then from a christian standpoint, jesus made clear, that he was the bringer of a new way and all things from the past were no longer applicable to the current or future.

God is not outward, but inward and this is where the answers are.
people are brutal and it is easier to be mean and take others things, than it is to be nice and work for your own. some would like to blame the devil, but perhaps, they should look in the mirror.

the bible, churches, and people can help us explore what our personal views are, but they cannot answer anything.

questioning is good, in fact is a much needed thing.

God will still be there no matter how long it takes for us to see.

take care,

jay

and just so you know i am far from a religious fanatic, but have no problem sharing my own opinions, whether perceived as right or wrong, there just opinions and everyone has one.


I like what you've written here. I'd like to call this religious rationality. I don't think it's wise to have a blinding devotion to anything. It's important to question things even ones leaders whether that be king, president, popes, or even God.

I think you're right when you say that language translation and period context can make it confusing as to what things actually mean and why. So how do you know what's actually God and what's actually man? To go with the question of translating; though there are many different translations even though some of the wording may be different the ideas seem to be pretty much the same. So in order to answer my questions one would first have to decide what from the Bible and Christianity actually comes from God and Jesus and what has come from men.

mrveggieman
02-10-2012, 08:35 AM
I like what you've written here. I'd like to call this religious rationality. I don't think it's wise to have a blinding devotion to anything. It's important to question things even ones leaders whether that be king, president, popes, or even God.

I think you're right when you say that language translation and period context can make it confusing as to what things actually mean and why. So how do you know what's actually God and what's actually man? To go with the question of translating; though there are many different translations even though some of the wording may be different the ideas seem to be pretty much the same. So in order to answer my questions one would first have to decide what from the Bible and Christianity actually comes from God and Jesus and what has come from men.


+1

Also if I could add to that if you take a basic english sentence or phrase, and use translation software on a computer and translate a few different times through different languages then translate back to english see how different your original phrase or sentence comes back. Now can you begin to imagine the many mistranlations weather intentional or not of different scriptures. Yes each holy book claims that they are indeed correct and promises no mistranlations or other errors but we all know that they were translations by humans who are not God and do make mistakes. Just a little food for thought.

shrewsbury
02-10-2012, 09:58 AM
So in order to answer my questions one would first have to decide what from the Bible and Christianity actually comes from God and Jesus and what has come from men.

I would say, one would have to look everywhere, there are many texts that are not in the bible, and there are many interpretations on what means what, in the bible. you should find what you see as moral and right and how that can or cannot relate to your god.

some see god as an extreme absolute ruler, some as a friend, some as a parent, and everything else in between. but it is not about them, it is about you and your personal relationship with god.

god doesn't need to scare you, test you, or rule you, god is god, in fact god doesn't need you at all, and if god doesn't need you and god controls all, why are you around? must be a reason of some sort, but that reason is for you to decide.

again, i don't have any answers, and the few i THINK i might have are only relevant to me.

pspstatus
02-10-2012, 07:25 PM
+1

Also if I could add to that if you take a basic english sentence or phrase, and use translation software on a computer and translate a few different times through different languages then translate back to english see how different your original phrase or sentence comes back. Now can you begin to imagine the many mistranlations weather intentional or not of different scriptures. Yes each holy book claims that they are indeed correct and promises no mistranlations or other errors but we all know that they were translations by humans who are not God and do make mistakes. Just a little food for thought.

Exactly. It's almost like playing the telephone game for a few thousand years.

pspstatus
02-10-2012, 07:35 PM
I would say, one would have to look everywhere, there are many texts that are not in the bible, and there are many interpretations on what means what, in the bible. you should find what you see as moral and right and how that can or cannot relate to your god.

some see god as an extreme absolute ruler, some as a friend, some as a parent, and everything else in between. but it is not about them, it is about you and your personal relationship with god.

god doesn't need to scare you, test you, or rule you, god is god, in fact god doesn't need you at all, and if god doesn't need you and god controls all, why are you around? must be a reason of some sort, but that reason is for you to decide.

again, i don't have any answers, and the few i THINK i might have are only relevant to me.

I can dig this. When you look at it through your one on one relationship with God you come up with your own answers. But what about when we take a broader brush to it and look at the Bible as a whole which from what I understand is how most Christians define their religion?

To put it another way, I believe most Christians live under the umbrella of Church taught Christianity which considers the Bible to be 100% truth. They see the Bible as infallible where as you seem to see it as a work with major contributions by people, therefore understanding that not all of it may be correct. But for the people who do believe it is all truth how do they answer these questions?

ensbergcollector
02-11-2012, 12:24 AM
the problem with looking at the bible as something that "probably has some errors" is that people will then use that idea to do whatever they want because the bible can't be trusted as a guide anyway. people are constantly looking for an way to call themselves christians and yet live however they want.

shrewsbury
02-11-2012, 12:29 AM
obviously i couldn't answer that question.

do i believe all things in the bible are myths and stories based on earlier cultures? no

do i believe that everything we read in the bible is true? i guess i would have to know what specifics we are talking about.

i will say i do not agree with the age some put on the creation story, in fact "the creation museum" is a huge blow to anyone with any common sense, yes the earth is older than 6000 years! but this does not mean i do not believe god created the earth and heavens.

we could pick apart the texts that make up the bible, but you would also be astounded on the numerous facts contained within. and neither make the whole thing right or wrong.

the creation story, the big bang theory, both can be argued and some even say the big bang was the act of god's creation. so mix it up all you like!

i know this didn't answer your question, but i don't think anyone can prove everything in the old or new testament is the truth, nor all of it is a lie.

shrewsbury
02-11-2012, 12:32 AM
people are constantly looking for an way to call themselves christians and yet live however they want.

i am curious (with all do respect) how do you think christians should live?

i am (very honestly) not trying to put you on the spot, just curious on your views.

and by the way, i do agree with your statement in many ways.

pspstatus
02-12-2012, 04:54 PM
i know this didn't answer your question, but i don't think anyone can prove everything in the old or new testament is the truth, nor all of it is a lie.


It's cool. I agree that not everything in the Bible can be proven or disproven. I'm wondering how people who do believe the Bible is absolute would answer these questions.

bangsportscards
02-19-2012, 06:18 PM
I'm a Christian.

Like Jay said it's an inward deal.

It's great you have these questions.

The real simple answer is the Holy Spirit is what helps understand the bible most clearly.

Anyone can read the bible and their take home doesn't necessarily reflect the truth.

God could come across harsh in the bible due to a specific person having certain life experiences which make them see God a certain way which may not be the true character of Him.

Hey life is a journey & there are definitely trials.

While I know it's a struggle, try to hang in there best you can.

Christians are not superior people, just blessed with a gift, & they too mess up. And unfortunately this makes for judgements of how God is when others see Christians not live up to the standard. Christians can easily be tricke their life reflecting it. A Christian doesn't ever know it all, rather they are put in a position to learn more & more about God, in order to be traansformed into a new better person. It's like levels in a video game, some may still be on level 1 while others have matured to level 25, as examples.

Christians have The Holy Spirit inside them as a confirmation sign. There are other spirits that can & do influence them. I'm not excluded. Let's pretend a Christian guy you know isn't the greatest moral person & such he could be affected by some unholy spirit(s) in control. That's a Christian every moment & every day challenge to gain victory in.

God always stays the same, is the highest ideal, and the end all goal that Christians aim for.

I speak this response from an experience of being touched by Jesus Christ multiple times. He's real, changes hearts, & is always there to go to in times of need.

God is big, loving, & we all are here trying to figure out life the best we know how.

Blessings.

pspstatus
02-20-2012, 05:22 PM
I'm a Christian.

Like Jay said it's an inward deal.

It's great you have these questions.

The real simple answer is the Holy Spirit is what helps understand the bible most clearly.

Anyone can read the bible and their take home doesn't necessarily reflect the truth.

God could come across harsh in the bible due to a specific person having certain life experiences which make them see God a certain way which may not be the true character of Him.

Hey life is a journey & there are definitely trials.

While I know it's a struggle, try to hang in there best you can.

Christians are not superior people, just blessed with a gift, & they too mess up. And unfortunately this makes for judgements of how God is when others see Christians not live up to the standard. Christians can easily be tricke their life reflecting it. A Christian doesn't ever know it all, rather they are put in a position to learn more & more about God, in order to be traansformed into a new better person. It's like levels in a video game, some may still be on level 1 while others have matured to level 25, as examples.

Christians have The Holy Spirit inside them as a confirmation sign. There are other spirits that can & do influence them. I'm not excluded. Let's pretend a Christian guy you know isn't the greatest moral person & such he could be affected by some unholy spirit(s) in control. That's a Christian every moment & every day challenge to gain victory in.

God always stays the same, is the highest ideal, and the end all goal that Christians aim for.

I speak this response from an experience of being touched by Jesus Christ multiple times. He's real, changes hearts, & is always there to go to in times of need.

God is big, loving, & we all are here trying to figure out life the best we know how.

Blessings.


I respect what you're saying but I think it sounds like that same old have faith argument. I mean how is the Holy Spirit going to make me understand the inequality of men and women in the Bible? Or why God condones slavery? I don't need to have life experience as a slave to know that that's harsh.