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NY Sports Teams
04-05-2012, 10:06 PM
If you have a few minutes check out this video. I would start around the 4:50 mark or so. You need to click on the orange box with the link to view the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSnTQRAt8MM
Just another example of why I trust NOTHING these jokers authenticate. I highly doubt they could authenticate their own signatures.

...Rick

A7V
04-10-2012, 11:48 PM
irrelevant since what other option do we have. I would still rather have an item authenticated and take the risk of it MAYBE being fake than not having it authenticated and almost without a doubt being fake.

NY Sports Teams
04-11-2012, 05:33 AM
irrelevant since what other option do we have. I would still rather have an item authenticated and take the risk of it MAYBE being fake than not having it authenticated and almost without a doubt being fake.

Just because there are not other options that does not make my point irrelevant. If you cannot see what a colossal mistake this is that is your problem. If I was going to pay the high price of a Cobb signed baseball I would never trust any of these third party authenticators and that includes PSA/DNA. I know my IP graphs are authentic, I saw them signed. I have seen a player sign an item for a friend only to come back as not genuine from PSA/DNA. I've also seen PSA/DNA authenticate forgeries as being good. This has happens countless, probably hundreds if not thousands of times. You are paying for an opinion and like I said I don't think these JOKERS could authenticate their own signatures. I guess not doing anything about the many fake encapsulated cases on the market is their problem to deal with.

There is a big difference authenticating a player like Ty Cobb's auto as opposed to a average current ballplayer. You would hope that someone knowledgeable could reliably authenticate an item with a high price tag. I know I would never deal with a company that authenticates a signature on a ball that came out years after the player had died. My point is just because PSA/DNA authenticates you're item that in no way means the autograph is really authentic. The only way you will ever know if it's authentic is if you actually saw the item signed yourself. I would love a Lou Gehrig, Ted Williams signed ball but I never would buy one because I trust NOTHING that PSA/DNA or any third party authenticates.

...Rick

A7V
04-11-2012, 09:25 AM
The reality is this, it doesn't matter if it is real or fake if everyone in the collecting community except a few accept it as being real because it was authenticated. That is where we are at right now. JSA and PSA/DNA are so widely accepted, you could buy and resell items all the time and no one is going to question if it is real or fake, is that good well probably not but it is reality.

Again, I would rather have a MAYBE fake JSA or PSA/DNA product than an almost certainly fake product by an individual or other company.

NY Sports Teams
04-12-2012, 01:42 AM
I'll agree that the collecting community widely accepts PSA/DNA as the Gospel when it comes to authenticating. I'll also agree that you will have a much larger percentage of people willing to buy an item.

These individuals have authenticated baseballs that were signed by a player but the ball was engraved with a President/Commissioner who did not hold that position until well after the player had died. Even a child with a third grade education can reason that that is impossible. But unlike a child with a third grade education these companies cannot.

I know I would not put down hundreds if not thousands of dollars on any item that is authenticated by these companies. For all those who would pay that kind of money, watch the video and then just stare at that sticker, do you really know that signature is authentic? In my eyes you have just as good a chance of being right by flipping a coin. The only way you will know for sure is if you saw the items signed right in front of you.

...Rick

taaamps
04-13-2012, 05:31 PM
i don't waste my money on their opinions. I asked JSA once at the Sun Times show here in Chicago their process and he turned his laptop to me and said they have on record hundreds of signatures of athletes and all they do is compare you signature to the ones they have on file. They don't look at pen pressure or anything. I'll only pay up for an auto if it's Steiner, MLB, Mounted Memories, or the other 1st hand holograms. Otherwise I could care less if PSA or JSA say it's real.

This type of mistake on the Cobb ball should be VERY damning to a company. Think about it, they certified a signature of one of the best known baseball players of ALL-TIME years after he died! SERIOUSLY?!? This is an epic failure on their end. Throw them in with GAI as far as I'm concerned.

If you visit www.haulsofshame.com there are many more examples of JSA and PSA certified items that came back as fakes.

NY Sports Teams
04-14-2012, 12:42 AM
For sure. If anyone has a shred of intelligence they cannot believe that an item is 100% authentic when it is authenticated by these companies. You are paying for an opinion. I'll give my own opinion for free. These guys are buffoons. I'm just waiting for them to authenticate a Babe Ruth auto on a box from The Show or 2K12 from X-Box 360 or PS3. Who knows, it could happen. They can authenticate a ball that was released well after Ty Cobb died. Buffoons.

...Rick

OSUJeffrey
04-19-2012, 06:44 PM
Interesting video and info...
That said, I am not a big fan either, I collect 55 all American cards and if i ever buy one that is slabbed, I take it out.

However, I when I occasionally do by signed memoribillia, I at least hope for "some sort" of certificate of authenticity... If anything else sometimes it allows me as a buyer to know where the item was signed "card show..etc..."

I just feel they are the best game around in a tough business...

NY Sports Teams
04-21-2012, 01:13 AM
Interesting video and info...
That said, I am not a big fan either, I collect 55 all American cards and if i ever buy one that is slabbed, I take it out.

However, I when I occasionally do by signed memoribillia, I at least hope for "some sort" of certificate of authenticity... If anything else sometimes it allows me as a buyer to know where the item was signed "card show..etc..."

I just feel they are the best game around in a tough business...


I agree that they are the so called "best". The so called "best" should never miss something as obvious that. If they can't catch that how can they decipher a signature from an excellent forger. As I said, if you have items authenticated by PSA/DNA do you really know they are authentic? My answer is NO. One thing I do know, they are bozo's. Too many clowns and not enough circuses.

...Rick

blkdodge
04-21-2012, 08:40 AM
I do not understand why anyone would buy any of the big names Jordan, Mantle Ted Williams, etc with psa or jsa. If FBI experts can not tell the difference on some fakes I find it hard to believe that they can. There is a reason UDA and Steiner sell for as much as they do, you know the item is %100 real. JSA witness and PSA on site stuff on the other hand I do trust buying, some shows use them as the COA for their shows, CSA, GTSM, etc. The best thing to do is educate yourself.

NY Sports Teams
04-21-2012, 12:03 PM
I do not understand why anyone would buy any of the big names Jordan, Mantle Ted Williams, etc with psa or jsa. If FBI experts can not tell the difference on some fakes I find it hard to believe that they can. There is a reason UDA and Steiner sell for as much as they do, you know the item is %100 real. JSA witness and PSA on site stuff on the other hand I do trust buying, some shows use them as the COA for their shows, CSA, GTSM, etc. The best thing to do is educate yourself.

Very true.

I'd love a signed Ted Williams baseball. I could never buy one because every time I looked at the PSA/DNA sticker I'd think of this video or the tons of mistakes the buffoons have made. Like I always say, do you really know if your PSA/DNA item is authentic?

...Rick

blkdodge
04-21-2012, 04:10 PM
Buy an Upper Deck Williams ball and you will have no worries.

NY Sports Teams
04-21-2012, 04:56 PM
I wish I could, but I've got to see the item signed in front of me. That way when I look at my collection I have no doubt everything is authentic, unlike individuals who have items authenticated by PSA/DNA, JSA or any of the other Bozo's.

...Rick

The Mick
04-21-2012, 05:19 PM
I will not defend anyone here. That being said, we are dealing with human beings that make mistakes. Clearly, a major mistake was made by both of the Big 2 and someone caught it. AWESOME! I'm sure they will make it right. There have been many mistakes made by all authenticators, but there have also been tens of thousands of correct authentications as well! In our world, we NEED some third party to facilitate auction and on line sales. PSA and JSA is what we have now and like it or not, they are the BEST we have. The FBI accepts them as do I, but not blindly.

I applaud anyone that calls out these errors. I also applaud all the solid authentications out there. Without them, where would we be? I've been in this since the Wild Wild West of the early 80's when half the stuff you saw was bad and no one really knew. I much prefer it now.

blkdodge
04-21-2012, 05:28 PM
I wish I could, but I've got to see the item signed in front of me. That way when I look at my collection I have no doubt everything is authentic, unlike individuals who have items authenticated by PSA/DNA, JSA or any of the other Bozo's.

...Rick

UDA Ted Williams ball with paperwork and matching hologram is %100 legit, that is why they cost what they do.

NY Sports Teams
04-21-2012, 05:58 PM
I will not defend anyone here. That being said, we are dealing with human beings that make mistakes. Clearly, a major mistake was made by both of the Big 2 and someone caught it. AWESOME! I'm sure they will make it right. There have been many mistakes made by all authenticators, but there have also been tens of thousands of correct authentications as well! In our world, we NEED some third party to facilitate auction and on line sales. PSA and JSA is what we have now and like it or not, they are the BEST we have. The FBI accepts them as do I, but not blindly.

I applaud anyone that calls out these errors. I also applaud all the solid authentications out there. Without them, where would we be? I've been in this since the Wild Wild West of the early 80's when half the stuff you saw was bad and no one really knew. I much prefer it now.

I guess I'm not one who accepts mistakes. My whole adult life I've worked in a job that ONE mistake will get you killed or someone else. This is their job. To miss something so blatant is a joke. When you say there have been tens of thousands of correct authentications I question that. If they can make such a huge mistake in this case how can anyone trust ANYTHING they have to say? I've had quite a few friends who have received in-person auto's, which I saw signed, only to come back as bad. Yet they can authenticate known forgeries. I have absolutely zero, nada, zilch trust in anything these buffoons have to say. Like I said, if you have an item authenticated by these individuals do you really know if it is 100% authentic?

...Rick

NY Sports Teams
04-21-2012, 06:00 PM
UDA Ted Williams ball with paperwork and matching hologram is %100 legit, that is why they cost what they do.

I'm going to have to research this. I appreciate it.

...Rick

hawk2618
04-21-2012, 06:24 PM
This is the MAIN reason why I stick to vintage cards.Its bad enough you can't tell if a vintage is real or fake.Now we have to worry about a signature being real just as much as the card? Along with any memorabilia for that matter. ~~Dave C.

NY Sports Teams
04-21-2012, 06:45 PM
This is the MAIN reason why is stick to vintage cards.Its bad enough you can't tell if a vintage is real or fake.Now we have to worry about a signature being real just as much as the card? Along with any memorabilia for that matter. ~~Dave C.

Great point. I'm not well versed in cards being put into encapsulated cases but I've heard that there are fake cases out there. I know it's happened with PSA/DNA cases but I have not heard of any from Beckett. If that starts happening there will be big problems with graded cards.

...Rick

OSUJeffrey
04-21-2012, 10:46 PM
Hawk,
This is the same reason I also exclusively collect vintage. They are less popular and unless we are talking tobacco cards or Mantle etc.... There is not enough money in them for counterfeit cards to surface...
I tried to get in collecting modern patch autos and more but it was to much hassle. I sold them all and feel better for it.

Rick,
I agree and admire your conviction..... I hope some day you can find a Williams auto that meets your standards.. I just retired from service and my hat is off to you, thanks.

NY Sports Teams
04-22-2012, 07:25 AM
Hawk,
This is the same reason I also exclusively collect vintage. They are less popular and unless we are talking tobacco cards or Mantle etc.... There is not enough money in them for counterfeit cards to surface...
I tried to get in collecting modern patch autos and more but it was to much hassle. I sold them all and feel better for it.

Rick,
I agree and admire your conviction..... I hope some day you can find a Williams auto that meets your standards.. I just retired from service and my hat is off to you, thanks.

Thanks and my hats off to you also.

I talked with our insurance agent about getting a rider for my collectables. He said that there needs to be an authentication for each item that is covered. I told him the only two items I have with an authentication is a Nolan Ryan baseball and a Brett Favre 16x20. They are the only two items that were not signed in-person and I don't know 100% if they are authentic. I believe they are since they came from the players foundation/website with the hologram but as I said I did not see them signed. I ended up going with another company for insurance.

...Rick

hawk2618
04-22-2012, 10:55 AM
I'm not able to view links in threads here.Can someone give me a very short summary of the clip?I also was curious.If the clip is about a psa/dna item that was forged somehow? All PSA items have a certification # on them.As long as # is in the PSA system,it has to be considered real correct? Whenever I purchase a PSA on ebay,I ALWAYS make sure to look up the # on their site to confirm,its in their system.I really hope there NEVER comes a day,where you can't even purchase a PSA item and wonder "Is that really a PSA product,even though its in the system?" ~~Dave C.

NY Sports Teams
04-22-2012, 11:31 AM
I'm not able to view links in threads here.Can someone give me a very short summary of the clip?I also was curious.If the clip is about a psa/dna item that was forged somehow? All PSA items have a certification # on them.As long as # is in the PSA system,it has to be considered real correct? Whenever I purchase a PSA on ebay,I ALWAYS make sure to look up the # on their site to confirm,its in their system.I really hope there NEVER comes a day,where you can't even purchase a PSA item and wonder "Is that really a PSA product,even though its in the system?" ~~Dave C.

Short summary. PSA/DNA authenticated a baseball that was signed by Ty Cobb. The baseball itself was produced well after Cobb's death so therefore there was no way that Cobb could have signed it. You do not receive a certification # until PSA/DNA authenticates the item as real.

Many in the hobby consider anything that is authenticated by PSA/DNA as real, I don't. You said "I really hope there NEVER comes a day, where you can't even purchase a PSA item and wonder Is that really a PSA product,even though its in the system? That day has come and gone a long time ago. As I said before these they have authenticated many, many, many items that in fact are not authentic. If they could mess up on such an obvious error with a Cobb ball how can anything they authenticate be trusted. Just because the item has a PSA/DNA sticker that does make make the item genuine. For all those who have items authenticated by PSA/DNA and think their items are authentic I hope they are for your sake.
For me I would always wonder if it is or is not a genuine signature.

I'm posting a link so possibly you will be able to view the video.

YOU NEED TO CLICK ON THE ORANGE BOX WITH THE LINK TO VIEW THE VIDEO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSnTQRAt8MM

Here is a link on counterfeit cards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pl4N8bw3Njw

...Rick

TPotts
04-22-2012, 11:42 AM
I always have and always will trust my own eye before these jokers... It's nicer than my own pocket too...

hawk2618
04-22-2012, 11:44 AM
I can't view videos either,thanks though.I'm missing adobe flash,and somehow my pc won't allow the download.That is pretty sad how they couldn't catch that.Collectors put way too much stock in autos anyway.I do pick up auto lots from time to time under 20 bucks though and I now own about 20-30 auto cards.The most expensive one was I think 8 bucks.
As long as I think they're real.I'm cool with that.No need to spend $15 to tell me its real only to find out it might be fake later. ~~Dave C.

NY Sports Teams
04-22-2012, 11:51 AM
I always have and always will trust my own eye before these jokers... It's nicer than my own pocket too...

That is so true. I know I'm a very good judge on some players graphs but many I'm not that knowledgeable. One thing that is tough is there are limited resources for known in person auto's. If your going by PSA/DNA, JSA examples for reference than you might as well just have them authenticate the item. Another thing that is tough is many times a players in-person auto especially when they are rushed differs quite a bit from a sit down show auto. Plus some players like Eli Manning for example give you an "Eli M____g" when at training camp.

I'm also going to put a link for this guy's home youtube page. He also has many examples of what to look for when these scammers insert fake patches into the cards.

http://www.youtube.com/user/JOEMLM/videos

...Rick

TPotts
04-22-2012, 12:03 PM
Yeah I hear that, you gotten be open minded for sure. Another good example for me personally was Vicks "MV7" instead of the full sig. Although, theyre still close enough to make a judgement. But if I have any question I just stay away.

Another thing is that if you do buy a fake it's at you're own fault, not someone else's!!

NY Sports Teams
04-22-2012, 12:12 PM
Yep.

I wish I could start a website that only has in-person auto's that are used for examples. The problem is you have to trust people who send a photo/scan for the example. I'm not willing to do that. Also many of these scans and photo's are not clear enough to really help...Rick

EDIT: One other thing. There is a website that you can subscribe to that gives examples. The problem with that is I believe they also use PSA/DNA, JSA as examples

chajones
04-29-2012, 11:13 AM
The Heritage Auction Company and PSA recently released this photo as proof of the validity of the ball. I already double checked and the Flux Capacitor was invented in 1953 so this is plausible.
http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee45/chajones721/browncobb.jpg

jaydoublez
04-29-2012, 07:49 PM
If you need a source for IP autos look in my bucket LOL

Mires
04-30-2012, 01:14 AM
I've only bought 1 autographed item before from mounted memories which was a Reggie Jackson signed baseball. I trust it 100% because Reggie was selling the exact same ball with mounted memories COA on his website.

One day I'll get a MJ auto from UDA, only because he's under contract with them. Otherwise, I don't trust any autographed item.

Vegas
05-08-2012, 01:05 PM
I will not defend anyone here. That being said, we are dealing with human beings that make mistakes. Clearly, a major mistake was made by both of the Big 2 and someone caught it. AWESOME! I'm sure they will make it right. There have been many mistakes made by all authenticators, but there have also been tens of thousands of correct authentications as well! In our world, we NEED some third party to facilitate auction and on line sales. PSA and JSA is what we have now and like it or not, they are the BEST we have. The FBI accepts them as do I, but not blindly.

I applaud anyone that calls out these errors. I also applaud all the solid authentications out there. Without them, where would we be? I've been in this since the Wild Wild West of the early 80's when half the stuff you saw was bad and no one really knew. I much prefer it now.

Very well said, PSA and JSA may make occasional mistakes, but they are still the best and most trusted names in the industry. With all the fakes out there, esp with vintage signatures, they provide a very valuable service to collectors. Of course it's better to buy items from memorabilia companies that witness the signatures (UDA, Tristar, Steiner, Mounted Memories, etc), but that's not always an option. You can whine and complain about PSA/JSA all you want, but I am glad they are in business and will continue to buy items authenticated by them with confidence.

NY Sports Teams
05-09-2012, 03:08 AM
taaamps - Yes a lot of good information on that site. I believe there is an article that Babe Ruth's daughter calls them crooks for authenticating forgeries of the Babe on baseballs. Pointing out all the mistakes they make won't change the opinion of people who have PSA/DNA items because they want to believe that their stuff is authentic. I'm sorry to say but some of their stuff is not.

chajones - Thanks. I'm going to look into all the facts concerning this and report what I find out.

jaydoublez - LOL, same with mine.

Mires - Mounted Memories unlike PSA/DNA do their own signings. Seeing who has an exclusive contract with an athlete is a very important consideration when determining the authenticity of an item.

Vegas - I'm not whining or complaining about PSA/DNA. I'm stating the fact that they make many mistakes. If I hire a plumber, roofer or business I expect their work to be guaranteed. When I see an item that is authenticated by Steiner, Tristar, UDA, ect, I know that item is authentic. When I see an item that is authenticated by PSA/DNA I wonder if that item is in fact authentic or a fake.

If PSA/DNA is so darn good please explain to me how they do not authenticate many in-person auto's, none of mine because I would not deal with them, but of friends that I saw signed. I have absolutely no trust or confidence in anything they authenticate.

You are paying for an opinion. I'll give you my own opinion for free, I think that they are a bunch of jokers, but I guess they are better than a weatherman's prediction. If anyone wants to shell out money to these people than that's all well and good. If these same people look at their item and really believes it's authentic that's great, I look at their item and wonder is it real or a forgery.

If you want to believe in these clowns that's fine, some believe in the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny too.

...Rick


EDIT: The Mick - I've never heard of the FBI accepting what PSA/DNA says as gospel, they have their own handwriting experts. If I were a defense attorney I would love to have them use these clowns in a case. I would point out the countless errors these fools have made. I would think there would be a lot of reasonable doubt. If they used them to authenticate it would make the Bureau look like the Keystone Kops.

taaamps
05-09-2012, 08:13 AM
You have to admit this though, PSA/DNA and JSA have done one helluva job marketing their services. Why else on earth would someone pay them to authenticate a ball that already has an Upper Deck hologram or Mounted Memories hologram, etc? I mean, seriously? You don't trust Upper Deck but you trust PSA? That is marketing genius if you ask me.

I don't trust 3rd parties when it comes to autographs. It's a house of cards if you ask me. If you seriously think they take the time to analyze the pen pressure and flow of a ball signed by, say, Ben Revere of the Twins you're crazy.