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mrveggieman
04-16-2012, 08:06 AM
Here's an interesting article that I'm sure that you will enjoy.

http://news.yahoo.com/rise-atheism-america-110700315.html

habsheaven
04-16-2012, 08:28 AM
As long as Christianity clings to the claims that the Old Testament is God's word and therefore true, the Atheist population will continue to grow.

mrveggieman
04-16-2012, 08:35 AM
Mods never mind. We can have a 2nd discussion right here.

shrewsbury
04-16-2012, 08:39 AM
As long as Christianity clings to the claims that the Old Testament is God's word and therefore true, the Atheist population will continue to grow.

there is a difference in being true and the practices being followed

and who doesn't trust an atheist?

mrveggieman
04-16-2012, 08:50 AM
there is a difference in being true and the practices being followed

and who doesn't trust an atheist?


I think that atheists are frowned upon by the religious "right" just like jews, muslims, gays, blacks and other "undesirables." Just ask fallwell (if he were still around), pat robertson, or santorum.

habsheaven
04-16-2012, 09:01 AM
there is a difference in being true and the practices being followed

and who doesn't trust an atheist?

I wasn't referring to the practices. I was referring to the Book of Genesis and others.

shrewsbury
04-16-2012, 01:27 PM
believing in the accounts written in genesis and following the practices of the old covenant are different.

are the religious right the majority? most christians i know don't have an issue with muslims, jews, gays and such.

the one issue i have with some of these religions (and christians) is the oppression of children, women, and the disabled.

as a human and don't see how these people can live and act like this

habsheaven
04-16-2012, 02:24 PM
believing in the accounts written in genesis and following the practices of the old covenant are different.

are the religious right the majority? most christians i know don't have an issue with muslims, jews, gays and such.

the one issue i have with some of these religions (and christians) is the oppression of children, women, and the disabled.

as a human and don't see how these people can live and act like this

Yes, they are different. That is my point.

*censored*
04-17-2012, 08:13 AM
and who doesn't trust an atheist?

"I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." - George H.W. Bush

"What you should do for me is what you should do for everybody: Believe in God. Get off our backs." - Ed Derwinsky, former Secretary of the Department of Veterans Affairs

"Everything that American Atheists does is bull****." - Ed Murnane, Chairman of the Bush-Quayle '88 campaign

Seems like a significant distrust/fear of atheists to me.

shrewsbury
04-17-2012, 09:22 AM
none of those quotes come from an average christian or average american

mrveggieman
04-17-2012, 09:26 AM
none of those quotes come from an average christian or average american


So bush is not considered a real christian?

shrewsbury
04-17-2012, 09:27 AM
where is the word "real" used?

mrveggieman
04-17-2012, 09:47 AM
where is the word "real" used?


Sorry let me rephrase. Is bush considered a christian?

shrewsbury
04-17-2012, 09:50 AM
i guess it depends who is doing the considering. i am sure most will say no just because he is bush.

i don't personally know him so i couldn't answer that, but he is certainly not avergae

ensbergcollector
04-17-2012, 10:13 AM
Sorry let me rephrase. Is bush considered a christian?

no, bush is a universalist.

mrveggieman
04-17-2012, 10:31 AM
no, bush is a universalist.


Wait a minute when a you want to distance from a christian who gives christanity a black eye you throw him under the bus and say he/she is not a christian even though they have claimed to be a christian on several instances. However if a muslim does something stupid you say that all muslims are evil and throw the entire religion under the bus. I smell some serious hyprocracy...

duane1969
04-17-2012, 10:34 AM
Wait a minute when a you want to distance from a christian who gives christanity a black eye you throw him under the bus and say he/she is not a christian even though they have claimed to be a christian on several instances. However if a muslim does something stupid you say that all muslims are evil and throw the entire religion under the bus. I smell some serious hyprocracy...

Bush calls himself a universalist. It is not a case of anyone "distancing themselves' from someone or something. It is his own definition of his religion.

http://www.getreligion.org/2007/10/bush-the-universalist/

ensbergcollector
04-17-2012, 10:40 AM
Wait a minute when a you want to distance from a christian who gives christanity a black eye you throw him under the bus and say he/she is not a christian even though they have claimed to be a christian on several instances. However if a muslim does something stupid you say that all muslims are evil and throw the entire religion under the bus. I smell some serious hyprocracy...

i'm not distancing. you asked a question so i answered it. no attempt at distancing.

Star_Cards
04-18-2012, 11:21 AM
from what I can tell universalism is just a view pertaining to who gets into heaven once a person dies. Is that correct? It sounded to me like a person would still have a base from a specific religion, but tends to believe that others people of different faiths would be in heaven. Basically believing that one's religion would not be a factor when it was being determined if they were heaven worthy. Would love to hear more about this.

If my understanding is true I see how one would consider Bush to not be a christian but doesn't he still have a primary christian background in his faith?

ensbergcollector
04-18-2012, 11:28 AM
from what I can tell universalism is just a view pertaining to who gets into heaven once a person dies. Is that correct? It sounded to me like a person would still have a base from a specific religion, but tends to believe that others people of different faiths would be in heaven. Basically believing that one's religion would not be a factor when it was being determined if they were heaven worthy. Would love to hear more about this.

If my understanding is true I see how one would consider Bush to not be a christian but doesn't he still have a primary christian background in his faith?

he does still have a christian background. you are accurate in your view of universalism. It is rapidly becoming the PC version of religion. People who want to have religion but don't want to be viewed as judgmental end up at universalism. Problem with it is, by claiming all religions get into heaven, you are saying all religions are false since they all claim to be the only one.

fan4kc
04-18-2012, 11:36 AM
To be a Christan you just have to believe in Christ and the forgiveness of sins. Everyone makes bad decisions and sins. If Bush believes that Christ is the savior then yes he is a Christian. How you think he gave Christians a black eye I would like to hear that.

ensbergcollector
04-18-2012, 11:45 AM
To be a Christan you just have to believe in Christ and the forgiveness of sins. Everyone makes bad decisions and sins. If Bush believes that Christ is the savior then yes he is a Christian. How you think he gave Christians a black eye I would like to hear that.

if you believe jesus is the christ then you believe what he said. he said, he is the only way to heaven. if you don't believe Jesus is the only way to heaven then you don't really believe he is the christ. You are just picking pieces of various religions until you find some combination that makes you feel good about yourself.

and I wouldn't say he gave anything a black eye. I just think we should distinguish between christian and universalist. a universalist is no more a christian than they are a muslim, a jew, or a hindu.

Star_Cards
04-18-2012, 11:54 AM
he does still have a christian background. you are accurate in your view of universalism. It is rapidly becoming the PC version of religion. People who want to have religion but don't want to be viewed as judgmental end up at universalism. Problem with it is, by claiming all religions get into heaven, you are saying all religions are false since they all claim to be the only one.

I get that universalism can be viewed that way. I do think that a lot of religious people probably don't like to think that good people of other religions or of no religion wouldn't go to heaven when they pass.

Star_Cards
04-18-2012, 11:57 AM
if you believe jesus is the christ then you believe what he said. he said, he is the only way to heaven. if you don't believe Jesus is the only way to heaven then you don't really believe he is the christ. You are just picking pieces of various religions until you find some combination that makes you feel good about yourself.

and I wouldn't say he gave anything a black eye. I just think we should distinguish between christian and universalist. a universalist is no more a christian than they are a muslim, a jew, or a hindu.

sounds like universalist is more of an adjective of the type of christian, muslim, jew, etc one is. is that no different than how there are so many different types of christians? they have the basis of the religion but disagree one various interpretations.

shrewsbury
04-18-2012, 12:00 PM
not getting into heaven doesn't make you a bad christian, but maybe a realistic one.

look at paul, he thought he was unworthy of heaven, but that didn't stop him from being a christian

fan4kc
04-18-2012, 12:03 PM
if you believe jesus is the christ then you believe what he said. he said, he is the only way to heaven. if you don't believe Jesus is the only way to heaven then you don't really believe he is the christ. You are just picking pieces of various religions until you find some combination that makes you feel good about yourself.

and I wouldn't say he gave anything a black eye. I just think we should distinguish between christian and universalist. a universalist is no more a christian than they are a muslim, a jew, or a hindu.


You are right, if u believe he is the Christ then you believe he is the only way to heaven. So if bush said he is a Christian then he should believe this as well. If he said he is a universalist then I dont think u can say you believe in any religion. You can't have multiple believes on the same subject. You can definitely be tolerant of all believes, which is what I think everyone needs to be.

fan4kc
04-18-2012, 12:08 PM
I get that universalism can be viewed that way. I do think that a lot of religious people probably don't like to think that good people of other religions or of no religion wouldn't go to heaven when they pass.


If you have no religion why would you think there is a heaven?

Star_Cards
04-18-2012, 12:09 PM
You are right, if u believe he is the Christ then you believe he is the only way to heaven. So if bush said he is a Christian then he should believe this as well. If he said he is a universalist then I dont think u can say you believe in any religion. You can't have multiple believes on the same subject. You can definitely be tolerant of all believes, which is what I think everyone needs to be.

so what exactly defines one as a christian? Is it just only the way they believe one can get into heaven? To me that seems a bit odd considering there are so many values and such that the religion teaches.

Also, how many different denominations of christianity are there? Are these all okay to define as christian as long as they believe that only christians can get in to heaven?

mrveggieman
04-18-2012, 12:09 PM
Even though I don't like bush I like the concept of univeralism and I respect him for his universialist views. I from the school of putting your best foot forward in your chosen belief and not wasting time bashing someone else. As long as YOU do right by God you should get into heaven regardless of what the next man believes in or does not and if someone else of a different religion get's into heaven you shouldn't be mad at that either.

Star_Cards
04-18-2012, 12:15 PM
If you have no religion why would you think there is a heaven?

I'm not speaking about the person who doesn't have a religion. I'm speaking about the believer in heaven believing that a person without faith would get into heaven as they see it.

example. I do not believe in heaven, but some of my religious friends may think that I would get into heaven based on their belief of such a thing.

ensbergcollector
04-18-2012, 12:18 PM
so what exactly defines one as a christian? Is it just only the way they believe one can get into heaven? To me that seems a bit odd considering there are so many values and such that the religion teaches.

Also, how many different denominations of christianity are there? Are these all okay to define as christian as long as they believe that only christians can get in to heaven?

the main assertion of christianity is that jesus is the only way to heaven. If you don't believe that, it doesn't really make sense to be called a christian.

mrveggieman
04-18-2012, 12:18 PM
I'm not speaking about the person who doesn't have a religion. I'm speaking about the believer in heaven believing that a person without faith would get into heaven as they see it.

example. I do not believe in heaven, but some of my religious friends may think that I would get into heaven based on their belief of such a thing.


I'm not really following what you are saying. Why do your friends think that you should get into heaven based on the fact that you do not believe in it?

mrveggieman
04-18-2012, 12:20 PM
the main assertion of christianity is that jesus is the only way to heaven. If you don't believe that, it doesn't really make sense to be called a christian.


Jesus is an important part of Islam and all muslims must accept jesus as a prophet. So if that is the case and they believe in jesus why can't the be considered worthy of being accepted to heaven?

Star_Cards
04-18-2012, 12:25 PM
I'm not really following what you are saying. Why do your friends think that you should get into heaven based on the fact that you do not believe in it?

it's based off of their belief not the person without belief. Basically I'm saying that there are probably some universalists that believe even atheists would get into heaven.

If a person has a belief why can't they believe that a person without that same belief could still take part in their belief? :)

ensbergcollector
04-18-2012, 12:29 PM
Jesus is an important part of Islam and all muslims must accept jesus as a prophet. So if that is the case and they believe in jesus why can't the be considered worthy of being accepted to heaven?

but they don't believe he is the christ, which is why they don't call themselves christians. Why would someone who doesn't believe jesus is the christ call themselves a christian?


there is a huge difference in saying "jesus was a pretty important figure" and "i NEED Jesus to bridge the gap between myself and God."

ensbergcollector
04-18-2012, 12:32 PM
it's based off of their belief not the person without belief. Basically I'm saying that there are probably some universalists that believe even atheists would get into heaven.

If a person has a belief why can't they believe that a person without that same belief could still take part in their belief? :)

there is a very large segment of universalism that believes everyone goes to heaven whether they believe in God or not

mrveggieman
04-18-2012, 12:34 PM
it's based off of their belief not the person without belief. Basically I'm saying that there are probably some universalists that believe even atheists would get into heaven.

If a person has a belief why can't they believe that a person without that same belief could still take part in their belief? :)


Are your friends holding out hope that you will convert? Or are they saying that you should get into heaven because you are living a good and moral life despite not having any religious beliefs?

mrveggieman
04-18-2012, 12:36 PM
but they don't believe he is the christ, which is why they don't call themselves christians. Why would someone who doesn't believe jesus is the christ call themselves a christian?


there is a huge difference in saying "jesus was a pretty important figure" and "i NEED Jesus to bridge the gap between myself and God."


What would this woman be classified as and in your opinion would she get into heaven?

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003751274_redding17m.html

fan4kc
04-18-2012, 12:37 PM
I think how you believe you get to heaven is the whole basis of religion. Otherwise why would it exist?

ensbergcollector
04-18-2012, 12:44 PM
What would this woman be classified as and in your opinion would she get into heaven?

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003751274_redding17m.html

i wouldn't be able to answer without asking her some questions and it isn't my place to judge whether someone will get into heaven.

I will say this, just because someone wants to believe that things can be reconciled to each other, doesn't make it fact.

Star_Cards
04-18-2012, 12:44 PM
Are your friends holding out hope that you will convert? Or are they saying that you should get into heaven because you are living a good and moral life despite not having any religious beliefs?

I posted that as a hypothetical. I've never had a long chat with my friends about if they thought I'd get into heaven or not.

Star_Cards
04-18-2012, 12:46 PM
I think how you believe you get to heaven is the whole basis of religion. Otherwise why would it exist?

I would hope that anyone who practices a specific religion would think that it has a great value during their life. Sure the ultimate goal would be heaven but wouldn't think it's the whole point of religion.

fan4kc
04-18-2012, 01:30 PM
I would hope that anyone who practices a specific religion would think that it has a great value during their life. Sure the ultimate goal would be heaven but wouldn't think it's the whole point of religion.

So then what is?

mrveggieman
04-18-2012, 01:38 PM
So then what is?


I think that he is saying that the ultimate goal is to get to heaven but by following your chosen religion you will also be blessed on earth and be a blessing to others.

fan4kc
04-18-2012, 02:03 PM
I agree with that for sure. It is a way to live your life to reach the ultimate goal.

Star_Cards
04-18-2012, 02:20 PM
So then what is?

are you asking what of religion has importance along with the final goal of getting into heaven? I guess that's up to each person and their beliefs. If I were religious I think I would find value in the religion's teachings as I lived every day. I suppose those are all indirectly applied in the ultimate goal of getting into heaven. I'm not saying that anyone does or doesn't and maybe I'm just hung up on your post.

fan4kc
04-18-2012, 03:03 PM
Yes in my view all of religions teachings are to ultimately get to a goal, heaven.