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Imac7065
04-19-2012, 11:22 AM
I'm currently waiting for a moderator to respond to me about this, but I thought I would ask the SCF community...

I have just been informed I violated some rule about "multiple transactions with the same person on the same day".... this is really confusing me.

In my case I completed a deal with a person, posted it, paid for the item I purchased, and we thought we were done there. The seller then contacted me about another card they thought I would like (post paying and posting the first) and after a short time we agreed to the second deal, and of course posted it.

So what exactly did I do wrong here? Can someone help me? I am being told I may face a 10 point infraction for this if it "happens again in the future".. which is mind boggling to me.

Should I have not posted the second deal? Should we have cancelled the first deal (even though I already paid)?

I get that the mods don't want people posting multiple trades for one transaction.. but that's not what happened here at all. Why am I being threatened?

Sorry if I am venting a bit, but this is very frustrating and confusing... someone please explain this mess to me.

ensbergcollector
04-19-2012, 11:32 AM
it is to avoid people jacking up their feedback with multiple deals that will get shipped together anyway. while you as buyer did pay for two transactions, the deal would be shipped together and thus the other person shouldn't get 2 feedbacks for it.
In the future, just pm a mod and ask them to edit your original deal to include the new information. I understand the frustration, hopefully this explains a little.

Imac7065
04-19-2012, 11:36 AM
So anytime I agree to multiple deals with a person on the same day I have to contact a moderator before I can even complete the deal? That's ridiculous man...

Why can't a moderator flag a situation like this, PM the parties involved, and make a judgement based on that? Isn't that what moderators are for?!

Why should we as a community have to hold up our transactions.. or otherwise be threatened? A 10 point infraction is 3 times more than any rule violations I ever even heard of in the past.. it's extremely inflammatory and I think you can tell that in the tone of this response.

If we need permission to do multiple transactions with the same person on the same day.. why use this site at all?


it is to avoid people jacking up their feedback with multiple deals that will get shipped together anyway. while you as buyer did pay for two transactions, the deal would be shipped together and thus the other person shouldn't get 2 feedbacks for it.
In the future, just pm a mod and ask them to edit your original deal to include the new information. I understand the frustration, hopefully this explains a little.

duane1969
04-19-2012, 11:44 AM
ensbergcollector is correct. Don't take it as a threat. Take it as a warning of what not to do.

And I get that what you did was honest, but posting multiple deals in the same day with the same person and all of those deals being sent in the same package but leaving feedback for multiple deals is the definition of what is prohibited by the rule.

Imac7065
04-19-2012, 11:50 AM
So I shouldn't be entitled to the protection of posting the deal provides if I buy from a person more than once a day? I should pretend I didn't buy the second item and just ignore posting it? Doesn't that violate the rule that states all deals on here have to be posted to the trade forum?

This isn't the first time I have been caught up in a gray area about rules, and it's really frustrating... you guys do not make rules clear, and for situations like this you are more or less shrugging your shoulders... that can't be right.

How can buyers be protected by the site if they can't post a second, third, 4th, etc transaction on the same day? Asking us to contact a moderator for an exception or modification of a trade just makes it worse... you are saying that we more or less need permission to do multiple transactions with the same person.

Why can't a moderator do his or her job and investigate what may or MAY NOT be a violation? In this case it's not, yet I am still being threatened. If the moderator that threatened me had simply PM'd me asking why there were multiple transactions on the same day.. it probably wouldn't have happened! Now I am sitting here highly irritated and venting in public about it.


ensbergcollector is correct. Don't take it as a threat. Take it as a warning of what not to do.

And I get that what you did was honest, but posting multiple deals in the same day with the same person and all of those deals being sent in the same package but leaving feedback for multiple deals is the definition of what is prohibited by the rule.

duane1969
04-19-2012, 11:54 AM
So anytime I agree to multiple deals with a person on the same day I have to contact a moderator before I can even complete the deal? That's ridiculous man...

Nobody said you need permission to do a deal. Just PM a mod and ask them to edit your current deal or post the second deal and PM a mod and ask them to combine the deals into one.



Why can't a moderator flag a situation like this, PM the parties involved, and make a judgement based on that? Isn't that what moderators are for?!

Mods are here to help the site run smooth and enforce the rules, not to make judgement calls. If a rule say not to do something then we enforce that rule.


Why should we as a community have to hold up our transactions.. or otherwise be threatened? A 10 point infraction is 3 times more than any rule violations I ever even heard of in the past.. it's extremely inflammatory and I think you can tell that in the tone of this response.

As I said, nobody expects you to "hold up" your deals. It is such a high point infraction because it is classified as feedback fraud and is severaly looked down upon. The high infraction points are meant as a strong prohibitor of doing it.

And if you read the rules page you will find a list of infractions and the points that they are valued at. http://www.sportscardforum.com/view.php?pg=rules If you have never heard of a rule with that many pints then you probably have not read the rules.


If we need permission to do multiple transactions with the same person on the same day.. why use this site at all?

It is a site rule that you agreed to abide by when you joined. Nobody is forcing you to do anything. If you do not like abiding by the rules for trading on this site then you do not have to trade here.

Imac7065
04-19-2012, 11:58 AM
On one hand you are saying we don't need permission to do multiple transactions with the same person, and on the other you are saying we need to contact a moderator to modify already posted trades?

On one hand you are saying we don't have to "hold up" any deals, and on the other the site requires all agreed trades to be posted...

am I the only one that gets confused here?!

And on the moderators "job" point... 100% agree.. their job is to keep the site running smoothly. So let me ask you.. which makes more sense.. sending threatening e-mails to multiple members, or contacting them to see if they are even doing what the moderator is accusing them of? The "smooth" response would be to contact them before acting.. would it not?


Nobody said you need permission to do a deal. Just PM a mod and ask them to edit your current deal or post the second deal and PM a mod and ask them to combine the deals into one.



Mods are here to help the site run smooth and enforce the rules, not to make judgement calls. If a rule say not to do something then we enforce that rule.



As I said, nobody expects you to "hold up" your deals. It is such a high point infraction because it is classified as feedback fraud and is severaly looked down upon. The high infraction points are meant as a strong prohibitor of doing it.

And if you read the rules page you will find a list of infractions and the points that they are valued at. http://www.sportscardforum.com/view.php?pg=rules If you have never heard of a rule with that many pints then you probably have not read the rules.



It is a site rule that you agreed to abide by when you joined. Nobody is forcing you to do anything. If you do not like abiding by the rules for trading on this site then you do not have to trade here.

duane1969
04-19-2012, 11:59 AM
So I shouldn't be entitled to the protection of posting the deal provides if I buy from a person more than once a day? I should pretend I didn't buy the second item and just ignore posting it? Doesn't that violate the rule that states all deals on here have to be posted to the trade forum?

This isn't the first time I have been caught up in a gray area about rules, and it's really frustrating... you guys do not make rules clear, and for situations like this you are more or less shrugging your shoulders... that can't be right.

How can buyers be protected by the site if they can't post a second, third, 4th, etc transaction on the same day? Asking us to contact a moderator for an exception or modification of a trade just makes it worse... you are saying that we more or less need permission to do multiple transactions with the same person.

Why can't a moderator do his or her job and investigate what may or MAY NOT be a violation? In this case it's not, yet I am still being threatened. If the moderator that threatened me had simply PM'd me asking why there were multiple transactions on the same day.. it probably wouldn't have happened! Now I am sitting here highly irritated and venting in public about it.

Nobody said you need mod permission to do multiple deals. That is your interpretation of what you have been told and it is wrong. If you want to post 200 deals in one day with the same person, go right ahead, just make sure that it is 200 seperate deals. If they are all sent in the same package and then you leave feedback for 200 seperate deals then it is feedback fraud.

The mod did not "do his job" and make a judgement call because "his job" is not to make a judgement call. His job is to enforce the rules. He did that.

duane1969
04-19-2012, 12:03 PM
On one hand you are saying we don't need permission to do multiple transactions with the same person, and on the other you are saying we need to contact a moderator to modify already posted trades?

On one hand you are saying we don't have to "hold up" any deals, and on the other the site requires all agreed trades to be posted...

am I the only one that gets confused here?!

Yes it appears that you are the only one that is confused because we rarely have problems with this rule.


And on the moderators "job" point... 100% agree.. their job is to keep the site running smoothly. So let me ask you.. which makes more sense.. sending threatening e-mails to multiple members, or contacting them to see if they are even doing what the moderator is accusing them of? The "smooth" response would be to contact them before acting.. would it not?

No, it would not. Sending you a PM asking if you intentionally broke a rule would be pointless. Unless you are one of the more stupid people in the world you are going to claim it was unintentional. Nobody with half a brain is going to admit to feedback fraud.

The rule is clear.

Create multiple deals. Send multiple packages. Leave multiple feedbacks. No problem.
Create multiple deals. Send one package. Leave multiple feedbacks. Problem.

Imac7065
04-19-2012, 12:04 PM
*smacks forehead*.. you honestly expect someone to agree to deals at 9am, 12pm, 2pm, 5pm, and 8pm... post them as each deal is agreed, then get paid separately each time (which I actually did in my case) then send 5 separate packages?! REALLY?!

If you post your first deal.. then agree to more later in the day.. you honestly want to look me in the face and say the seller should be required to send the items in separate envelopes..... *shakes head*.. does no one have any common sense anymore??


Nobody said you need mod permission to do multiple deals. That is your interpretation of what you have been told and it is wrong. If you want to post 200 deals in one day with the same person, go right ahead, just make sure that it is 200 seperate deals. If they are all sent in the same package and then you leave feedback for 200 seperate deals then it is feedback fraud.

The mod did not "do his job" and make a judgement call because "his job" is not to make a judgement call. His job is to enforce the rules. He did that.

Imac7065
04-19-2012, 12:08 PM
That line about the Mods was a cop out.. and I know this first hand. I had an issue in the past where a mod accused me of posting "wax for sale".. even though what I had posted was a factory set from 1983... the head of the site (patriotsguy.. something like that) asked me to forward him the PM's from that mod.. and in less than an hour the infraction the moderator put on my account was reversed. THAT was handled smoothly.. it's not that difficult sir.

You simply ask the parties involved to forward the PM's regarding the deals.. if they cannot produce them.. they are in violation. If they can, they are legit.. it's not hard at all.

I still would like an answer on how not being able to post a second transaction without moderator permission is not "holding up" a transaction. Are you saying we should violate the rule about posting every transaction or not?


Yes it appears that you are the only one that is confused because we rarely have problems with this rule.



No, it would not. Sending you a PM asking if you intentionally broke a rule would be pointless. Unless you are one of the more stupid people in the world you are going to claim it was unintentional. Nobody with half a brain is going to admit to feedback fraud.

The rule is clear.

Create multiple deals. Send multiple packages. Leave multiple feedbacks. No problem.
Create multiple deals. Send one package. Leave multiple feedbacks. Problem.

Imac7065
04-19-2012, 12:24 PM
Now I don't even get the explanation? grrrr

habsheaven
04-19-2012, 12:26 PM
The intent of the rule is obvious and logical. Quibbling over how to circumvent the rule on the RARE occasion that it happens is pointless. If you have all the e-mails/pms outlining the circumstances there is no reason to hold up the actual transfer of goods while you wait for a mod to edit the original deal. You are making a big deal over nothing, IMHO.

duane1969
04-19-2012, 12:27 PM
I still would like an answer on how not being able to post a second transaction without moderator permission is not "holding up" a transaction. Are you saying we should violate the rule about posting every transaction or not?

I have told you multiple times that mod permission is not needed. If you want to insist that you get an answer then I wish you luck. There is no rule against multiple deals, just a rule against posting multiple deals, sending them all together, and then leaving feedback as if they were seperate.

Imac7065
04-19-2012, 12:31 PM
I find it a form of insurance being able to post a deal in public rather than just agreeing in a PM (like other sites).. that's why I use this site and recommend it to others. The site also requires the posting of transactions.

Saying we should A) ignore that rule in lew of another and B) saying it's not a big deal... is why I am so frustrated here.

From the perspective of a person like me it feels as though the mods would rather be lazy and just accuse people of wrong doing rather than see if they are in fact doing it right.

Adding on a requirement to send all items separately in separate packages is just beyond silly.


The intent of the rule is obvious and logical. Quibbling over how to circumvent the rule on the RARE occasion that it happens is pointless. If you have all the e-mails/pms outlining the circumstances there is no reason to hold up the actual transfer of goods while you wait for a mod to edit the original deal. You are making a big deal over nothing, IMHO.

Imac7065
04-19-2012, 12:33 PM
You are saying I need to violate one rule to follow another.. THAT IS WHAT I AM ASKING ABOUT...

do I A) Post all transactions agreed to or..

B) Not post multiple transactions on the same day from the same person

THIS IS WHAT I AM ASKING lol


I have told you multiple times that mod permission is not needed. If you want to insist that you get an answer then I wish you luck. There is no rule against multiple deals, just a rule against posting multiple deals, sending them all together, and then leaving feedback as if they were seperate.

Imac7065
04-19-2012, 12:36 PM
Here is a DIRECT QUOTE FROM THE RULES OF THIS SITE...

"All trades must be made with the trade manager if you want a trade moderated, no exceptions."

Imac7065
04-19-2012, 12:52 PM
I would love to hear from more members about this.. the Moderator of this forum doesn't seem to want to answer the contradiction I have pointed out... am I over reacting or do others feel the same?

duane1969
04-19-2012, 01:03 PM
You are saying I need to violate one rule to follow another.. THAT IS WHAT I AM ASKING ABOUT...

do I A) Post all transactions agreed to or..

B) Not post multiple transactions on the same day from the same person

THIS IS WHAT I AM ASKING lol

I have no idea what you are talking about. AT NO POINT DID I TELL YOU NOT TO POST TRADES WITH THE SAME PERSON ON THE SAME DAY.


ensbergcollector is correct. Don't take it as a threat. Take it as a warning of what not to do.

And I get that what you did was honest, but posting multiple deals in the same day with the same person and all of those deals being sent in the same package but leaving feedback for multiple deals is the definition of what is prohibited by the rule.


Nobody said you need permission to do a deal. Just PM a mod and ask them to edit your current deal or post the second deal and PM a mod and ask them to combine the deals into one.


Nobody said you need mod permission to do multiple deals. That is your interpretation of what you have been told and it is wrong. If you want to post 200 deals in one day with the same person, go right ahead, just make sure that it is 200 seperate deals. If they are all sent in the same package and then you leave feedback for 200 seperate deals then it is feedback fraud.



Create multiple deals. Send multiple packages. Leave multiple feedbacks. No problem.Create multiple deals. Send one package. Leave multiple feedbacks. Problem.


I have told you multiple times that mod permission is not needed. If you want to insist that you get an answer then I wish you luck. There is no rule against multiple deals, just a rule against posting multiple deals, sending them all together, and then leaving feedback as if they were seperate.

I don't know why you insist on someone explaining something to you that was not said.

The simple fact is that you broke the rule and got a warning for it and now you want to throw a tantrum and demand that you not have to abide by the rule or make excuses for why you shouldn't have to abide by it. I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you, the rules apply to everyone including you.

I will not explain why you have been told two contradicting things because you have not been told two contradicting things. You made that up. I have repeatedly and clearly explained it to you. If you can not grasp the concept then there is nothing I can do.

duane1969
04-19-2012, 01:04 PM
Here is a DIRECT QUOTE FROM THE RULES OF THIS SITE...

"All trades must be made with the trade manager if you want a trade moderated, no exceptions."

That rule is regarding disputes. We do not moderate trades that are not posted in the trade manager. If you do not post it in the trade manager then you can not file a dispute.

Imac7065
04-19-2012, 01:08 PM
That rule is regarding disputes. We do not moderate trades that are not posted in the trade manager. If you do not post it in the trade manager then you can not file a dispute.

So now you are saying we SHOULD post multiple deals on the same day.. just not leave feedback on them? God this place makes everything complicated! Why couldn't you have just said this in the first place, why don't the rules specify this.. heck.. why can't we post a trade with an option of no feedback as part of the post?!

duane1969
04-19-2012, 01:14 PM
So now you are saying we SHOULD post multiple deals on the same day.. just not leave feedback on them?

When did I say that you shouldn't?


God this place makes everything complicated!

Everyone else seems to be fine with the rule. It only seems to be too complicated for you.


can't we post a trade with an option of no feedback as part of the post?!


A) Why would you not want feedback?
B) Why do you insist on finding a way to not have to abide by the rules that everyone else has to abide by?

Imac7065
04-19-2012, 01:45 PM
When did I say that you shouldn't?



Everyone else seems to be fine with the rule. It only seems to be too complicated for you.



A) Why would you not want feedback?
B) Why do you insist on finding a way to not have to abide by the rules that everyone else has to abide by?


You just spent 5 responses telling me we cannot leave multiple feedback's on transactions from the same day!!!!!!!!

The only reason I use this site is because trades have to be posted publicly so no one can claim a farse... I WANT THE ABILITY TO POST MULTIPLE TRANSACTIONS ON THE SAME DAY FROM THE SAME PERSON, this isn't circumventing anything! Please stop accusing me of things sir... we are going in circles here and it's only getting me more and more frustrated.


Lets review..

A) All transactions are supposed to be posted.. yes or no?

B) You can/should post multiple transactions with the same person on the same day, but only leave feedback on one transaction... or....

C) You have to ask a moderator to modify the original posted transaction

if C is correct.. how is this not holding up pending transactions or violating the rule requiring to post all transactions? If B is correct, why is there no option to post a trade without feedback to prevent abuse?

PLEASE BE CONCISE HERE... you have said things extremely contradictory while claiming I am the only one confused... believe me, that is not the case lol

duane1969
04-19-2012, 01:46 PM
I have wasted enough time explaining it to you. I will waste no more.

Imac7065
04-19-2012, 01:50 PM
You have only confused me further by contradicting everything!!!...

duane1969
04-19-2012, 01:53 PM
What did I contradict?

habsheaven
04-19-2012, 01:56 PM
You just spent 5 responses telling me we cannot leave multiple feedback's on transactions from the same day!!!!!!!!

The only reason I use this site is because trades have to be posted publicly so no one can claim a farse... I WANT THE ABILITY TO POST MULTIPLE TRANSACTIONS ON THE SAME DAY FROM THE SAME PERSON, this isn't circumventing anything! Please stop accusing me of things sir... we are going in circles here and it's only getting me more and more frustrated.


Lets review..

A) All transactions are supposed to be posted.. yes or no?

B) You can/should post multiple transactions with the same person on the same day, but only leave feedback on one transaction... or....

C) You have to ask a moderator to modify the original posted transaction

if C is correct.. how is this not holding up pending transactions or violating the rule requiring to post all transactions? If B is correct, why is there no option to post a trade without feedback to prevent abuse?

PLEASE BE CONCISE HERE... you have said things extremely contradictory while claiming I am the only one confused... believe me, that is not the case lol

Since Duane has given up, I will reply.

"C" is the correct way to go. I already addressed earlier that there is no reason to hold up the transaction.

If you don't like "C", try "D": wait until you know the potential deal has been negotiated and then POST IT UP. Don't post a deal at 10 am if you think there is a possibility of adding to it.

Landonsdad
04-19-2012, 01:58 PM
What did I contradict?

+1

Ive read and understood everything he explained. Rules are set to protect members. If you don't agree with the rules im sure no one is forcing you to trade on this site!

Imac7065
04-19-2012, 02:16 PM
+1

Ive read and understood everything he explained. Rules are set to protect members. If you don't agree with the rules im sure no one is forcing you to trade on this site!

It has nothing to do with not agreeing with rules.. it's the fact that the rules are both contradictory to each other and leave me in limbo in a situation like this.

On one had they say we should post all deals or forfeit any protection.. on the other they are saying if you post multiple deals on the same day with the same person.. you are violating a rule lol. On a third hand it was said in this thread you should post multiple deals, but only leave feedback for one of them... this is where I am getting very very confused.

And to the other guys point "don't make a deal at 10am if you think you might add to it..." We never intended to add to it. I had paid for the item, he had packaged it. This was an "oh by the way...." moment. I paid separately for the second item and asked him to package them together to save him postage money.

Imac7065
04-19-2012, 02:19 PM
Since Duane has given up, I will reply.

"C" is the correct way to go. I already addressed earlier that there is no reason to hold up the transaction.

If you don't like "C", try "D": wait until you know the potential deal has been negotiated and then POST IT UP. Don't post a deal at 10 am if you think there is a possibility of adding to it.

If I cannot post a deal because I have to wait for a moderator to respond and OK the modified original posting.. how is this not a delay in transaction? Should I just proceed with my customer/trader/seller in blind faith and hope the site gives it the OK later on???

AThrash37DSnyder
04-19-2012, 02:41 PM
WOW

I got to admit this thread gave me a good laugh

Hey buddy...No one is forcing you to trade, post, yell, scream..ect on this forum..If you dont like it, there is an X at the top right of your computer screen :)

Mods, you are doing a great job here..Keep up the good work :)

duane1969
04-19-2012, 03:33 PM
It has nothing to do with not agreeing with rules.. it's the fact that the rules are both contradictory to each other and leave me in limbo in a situation like this.

The rules do not contradict each other. Not a fact.


On one had they say we should post all deals or forfeit any protection.. on the other they are saying if you post multiple deals on the same day with the same person.. you are violating a rule lol. On a third hand it was said in this thread you should post multiple deals, but only leave feedback for one of them... this is where I am getting very very confused.

The only thing you seem to truly be confused about is that you have to follow the rules. Other than that you seem to be trying to interpret the rules to fit your own need to argue that you don't have to follow the rules.

I will try to be as simple as possible so that hopefully there will be no need for you to ask the same question anymore.

- You must post a trade for it to be moderated in the event of a dispute
- If you post more than one trade with a person in the same day and all trades are sent seperately then you can leave feedback for all of them
- If you post multiple trades with a person in the same day and all trades are shipped together then you must request that the trades be merged


And to the other guys point "don't make a deal at 10am if you think you might add to it..." We never intended to add to it. I had paid for the item, he had packaged it. This was an "oh by the way...." moment. I paid separately for the second item and asked him to package them together to save him postage money.

And you left feedback for each deal which implied that they are seperate deals, and as you just stated, you knew they were not.

shrewsbury
04-19-2012, 04:01 PM
could they have posted the trade the next day, paid the next day, and mail out together? would that be a rule violation?

now that i read what i wrote, i see it would be, but wonder why

Imac7065
04-19-2012, 11:54 PM
THEY WERE SEPARATE DEALS!!! LOL.. that's the entire point here!

You keep accusing me of trying to skirt rules, or asking how to go around them.. I have no idea where that is coming from. My original point in the thread was not understanding why I was being threatened a 10 point infraction for something that was A) done in my opinion properly (although I did not know I should have requested a merger) and B) Couldn't be avoided...

You had me stuck between a rock and a hard place, and your response is to accuse me of wrong doing.. I don't get that at all. I find it quite rude in fact


The rules do not contradict each other. Not a fact.



The only thing you seem to truly be confused about is that you have to follow the rules. Other than that you seem to be trying to interpret the rules to fit your own need to argue that you don't have to follow the rules.

I will try to be as simple as possible so that hopefully there will be no need for you to ask the same question anymore.

- You must post a trade for it to be moderated in the event of a dispute
- If you post more than one trade with a person in the same day and all trades are sent seperately then you can leave feedback for all of them
- If you post multiple trades with a person in the same day and all trades are shipped together then you must request that the trades be merged



And you left feedback for each deal which implied that they are seperate deals, and as you just stated, you knew they were not.

Imac7065
04-19-2012, 11:55 PM
could they have posted the trade the next day, paid the next day, and mail out together? would that be a rule violation?

now that i read what i wrote, i see it would be, but wonder why

I think someone is starting to get my point of view on this here. The person I did these 2 deals with is in violation because they saved on postage? It just doesn't make sense. The only thing these deals had in common was being completed on the same day.

duane1969
04-20-2012, 01:37 AM
I spend my entire day dealing with teens who have the exact same problem as you. Rather than recognizing that they have to abide by the rules they break them and then try to argue that it is OK that they broke them by challenging the validity of the rules themselves. Rather than acknoeldge that bringing a knife to school is wrong, they argue that since they meant to do no harm with it then it should not be a problem. Rather than acknowledge that they broke state law by bringing tobacco on school property they argue that since daddy bought it for them that they should not get into trouble. The one common denominator is this. Regardless of their flawed opinion of how the rules should be interpreted or enforced, they still broke the rules and they still are wrong.

It is simple. You agreed to abide by the site rules for the priveledge of trading on here. If you do not like the rules then I don't know what to tell you except to not trade here. The rules will not be changed to accomodate you. This rule was devised to prevent people from doing exactly what you did. Rant all you want, the rule will remain the same.

TheTGB
04-20-2012, 01:41 AM
If you have two different transactions that are shipped together, you should receive only 1 feedback rating.

If you have two different transactions that are shipped in separate envelopes, then you can receive 2 feedback ratings.

It doesn't matter if you paid two different times. In your case of buying something, if it's shipped together it counts as one transaction. If he shipped them in two separate envelopes it counts as 2 transactions.

This is to prevent someone from buying 6 different things from someone, for instance every hour for 6 hours, and having that person ship in one envelope and receiving 6 feedback points. Is that fair? No.

I helped design that rule when it was put into place. It works fine. There was RARELY an issue with it. People understand the needed integrity of the feedback rating system.

The warning was given so you know not to do it again. SCF could have the mods just give you points without warnings but they chose to give out warnings ahead of time to prevent people from getting infractions.

And yes, they are in violation because they "saved on postage". That is one transaction as they are shipped together. And no, that's not the only thing those deals had in common. They were also shipped in the same package. 1 transaction = 1 package. 2 transactions = 2 packages. Get it? 2 transactions does not equal 1 package.

That's the rule. It's the way it is for good reason.

ajw9356
04-20-2012, 02:21 AM
It's a valid rule, it also helps prevent someone for coming in here and posting 20 trades in one day with themselves on two different user accounts and then can fraudulently try to sell cards that don't exist at exorbant prices and then never deliver because they no longer have to send first after reaching 20 trades, or any similar situation.
There is no sense in trying to justify the situation now, it's clear the rule is intended so that you can't get multiple feedbacks for doing the work for one trade, which intentional or not was going to happen. From now on take the advise that's been provided and apply it if this situation ever happens again and you'll probably never hear another word about it.
I think everyone can understand you weren't trying to break the set site rules intentionally and the Moderaterators on here just try to keep consistant between everyone and not give preferential treatment to others and they don't attack you personnally. I've had some minor rule infractions that I had forgotton were in place that I was warned on and accepted the fact. I normally send a message to the moderator usually that I had forgotten the rule and you normally will get a fair warning and no points docked, unless you are not completion trades or something fraudulent etc in which case you account should be frozen.

hawk2618
04-20-2012, 03:43 AM
Create multiple deals. Send multiple packages. Leave multiple feedbacks. No problem.
Create multiple deals. Send one package. Leave multiple feedbacks. Problem

I've read this whole thread,painful as it was but yet kinda amusing,sorry.Anyway,I have a quick question here about the above:
Lets say Imac makes 3 separate deals with the same trader and he tells the seller "please send those in separate packages because I don't want to break the rules of feedback fraud" and the seller sits back in his chair and laughs and types "OKKKK buddy, will do".4 days later it all comes in the mail in 1 package to Imac.Is he, as the buyer,who made 3 separate transactions by paypal, still going to be considered "breaking the rules" even though he "CLEARLY" asked the seller to send separately? He would've done his deals by the rules in this case but the seller wouldn't have.If these deals had happened this WAY,I would've been upset myself,because as the buyer,you have no control over how items are sent out by the seller, just his word! ~~Dave C.

duane1969
04-20-2012, 09:42 AM
Create multiple deals. Send multiple packages. Leave multiple feedbacks. No problem.
Create multiple deals. Send one package. Leave multiple feedbacks. Problem

I've read this whole thread,painful as it was but yet kinda amusing,sorry.Anyway,I have a quick question here about the above:
Lets say Imac makes 3 separate deals with the same trader and he tells the seller "please send those in separate packages because I don't want to break the rules of feedback fraud" and the seller sits back in his chair and laughs and types "OKKKK buddy, will do".4 days later it all comes in the mail in 1 package to Imac.Is he, as the buyer,who made 3 separate transactions by paypal, still going to be considered "breaking the rules" even though he "CLEARLY" asked the seller to send separately? He would've done his deals by the rules in this case but the seller wouldn't have.If these deals had happened this WAY,I would've been upset myself,because as the buyer,you have no control over how items are sent out by the seller, just his word! ~~Dave C.

Good question.

If he asked the seller to send in 3 packages and the seller sends in one then no rule is broken by either side. If he or the seller leaves feedback for 3 deals as if they all came seperately then a rule has been broken.

The rule is not broken by the act of sending multiple deals in one package. It is broken by leaving multiple feedbacks for one package. That is why the rule/infraction is named "Feedback Fraud". Quite frankly, the way I interpret the rule, if you want to do 100 deals with the same person and ship them in the same package then you are fine as long as you do not leave 100 feedbacks. 1 package = 1 transaction = 1 feedback.

The reason that we ask that a mod be contacted and the deals be merged into one is to avoid any issue with feedback fraud or the appearance of attempting feedback fraud.

hawk2618
04-21-2012, 07:13 PM
Imac..I realize you feel alone on this ,so i'll back you up on this to an extent.If you ask me if this is a silly rule,I wholeheartitly will agree it is a ridiculous rule.I've dealt on ebay since 2001 and feedback fraud(if thats the term were going to use)is done all the time there.I purchased 8 flights for my darts from one ebayer awhile ago,proceeded to pay for them,and then all 8 flights were mailed to me in 1 package(which makes common sense seeing someone will save money on postage).When the deal was complete,I actually was able to give the seller 8 feedbacks.Heres the catch.Not at any time did I receive a letter from ebay accusing me of "feedback fraud" with one ebayer.I honestly never knew "feedback fraud" even existed,seeing I never even heard of it. If I hadn't come across this thread,I too, would have never known about this rule on this site.However,seeing it is a "SCF" rule,and "WE" agreed to all terms,it must be followed without question.I would suggest you read "ALL"the rules like I have.I'm sure you will find a few more rules that will shake your head.
~~Dave C.

duane1969
04-22-2012, 12:23 PM
For the most part the rule was created for two reasons.

1) To prevent people from skirting the MSF rule for new members. If we didn't have this rule in place then someone who wanted to scam could come on the site, buy 20 base cards for .10 each, list each of them as a seperate deal and in a matter of days have his 20 trades done. Shortly thereafter he would scam someone for a lot of money or hi-end cards and people would be asking "Why was he allowed to do 20 trades with one person and get his MSF removed so quickly?"

In fact, I imagine that the very same people who don't like this rule would be the first to complain that SCF didn't do enough to protect them from getting scammed by allowing members to get multiple feedbacks that way.

2) If you look on the front page in the upper right corner you will see that we keep a running tally of the current month's top traders on the site. The top person each month gets recognized as "Trader of the Month" and gets a little tag added to their profile to recognize their status. Those people get there by doing lots of INDIVIDUAL trades. Would it be fair for them to get bumped down the list by someone who did 5 trades of 10 cards each but listed them as 50 seperate trades?

Should the person recognized as the top trader on the site get that recognition for doing 60 or 80 seperate trades or for doing 6 or 8 trades of 10 cards each?

--------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the eBay comment. You are incorrect. You can leave feedback for multiple items, but your first feedback for a person is the only one that counts towards their rating for items purchased during that week. If you leave feedback for 10 items that you bought and were shipped to you at the same time, they get a bump in their rating of 1 point, not 10 points.

Directly copied from eBay's website.


What if I buy multiple items from the same seller or sell multiple items to the same buyer?

You should leave Feedback for each sale. However, we calculate the other member's Feedback score differently depending on whether the sales occurred in the same week. For Feedback purposes, we define a week as Monday through Sunday, Pacific Time.


http://pages.ebay.com/help/feedback/howitworks.html

So SCF's policy is better than eBay's. On ebay it doesn't matter if you ship seperately or in the same package, you get one feedback per week. On SCF, if you ship in seperate packages you get feedback for every deal.

hawk2618
04-22-2012, 02:10 PM
Ok..that answers my question why I didn't get a feedback fraud from ebay...and seeing one actually leaves 8 single feedbacks,they'd never know that only one counts unless they read the small print like you did :) Thank-you for your response.Now...as far as "leaving feedback"is concerned.If its a rule and you get an infraction for false feedback,why isnt there a step where a feedback "has" to be left for an honest trade?Let me explain:I was told by a Mod.that "feedback" is an option by traders.I disagree with this practice.
Why can't there be a "received item" where the "trade completed" is and have "leave feeback" inbetween them? So it would go something like this......click "received item"...then proceed to "leave feedback"...and then proceed to click "trade completed"I firmly believe that Feedback is crucial,especially to the rookies who are trying to get out of the "must send first" status.It would be truly obsurd if a rookie pm a Mod saying they never received a "rating" from a transaction to go from 3 to 4 and then be told"FEEDBACK IS AN OPTION,IT IS NOT MANDATORY".That answer wouldn't want me to hang around any site if I'm not going to get rewarded for a honest completed trade.In other words....If I made a purchase as a rookie,lets say I send 100.00 payal, and never got a rating for it to move up the latter.That would surely leave bitter taste in my mouth and make me not want to leave feedback on ANY of my transactions.This is a suggestion that doesn't need to be done today, tomorrow,next week or even next month.But I do think it needs to be considered in the future so every"honest" transaction gets its reward,seeing a "Non-honest" one gets an infraction.
~~Dave C.

PS: When I don't receive a "feedback" for a complete transaction,in my eyes,its not complete!

hawk2618
04-22-2012, 02:25 PM
1) To prevent people from skirting the MSF rule for new members. If we didn't have this rule in place then someone who wanted to scam could come on the site, buy 20 base cards for .10 each, list each of them as a seperate deal and in a matter of days have his 20 trades done. Shortly thereafter he would scam someone for a lot of money or hi-end cards and people would be asking "Why was he allowed to do 20 trades with one person and get his MSF removed so quickly?"

I see your reasoning above,but in all actuality.Do you "really" think "anyone" in their sound mind would even consider on posting a trade for .10 ten times??? If the site can catch 2 feedbacks one after another to one trader to bag them for "feedback fraud" I would think it would be extremely easy to catch ten .10 posts in a row,seeing each trade is viewable to all members here.Don't get me wrong..I see why,I just think the odds of it happening has to be pretty rare.Just curious on the number of members(rough estimate) whos actually tried posting ten .10 trades to one member. ~~Dave C.

duane1969
04-22-2012, 02:39 PM
We can't force people to leave feedback just like we can't force people to use Beckett BV or eBay SV as a basis for their card values. All we can do is limit what people are allowed to do.

Per the issue of people trying to commit feedback fraud to quickly get rid of the new member 20 trade MSF tag, yes it happens. More often than you think. No, they are not all scammers, but most new members don't like being forced to send first for their first 20 trades and more than a few have tried to find a way around the rule.

I wouldn't know how many have tried it, but I worked disputes for 1.5 years and saw feedback fraud attempts on a pretty regular basis. Actual infractions for it have only been handed out a few dozen times, but you must remember that just like what happened with the OP, a warning is issued first, so there are most likely quite a few other instances that occurred once but never happened again after the warning was issued.

hawk2618
04-22-2012, 03:04 PM
Forcing left feedback is nowhere near the same as forcing members to use Beckett BV or even ebay BV.BV is to each his own.I would value a Gretzky RC very differently than someone else,and so on ,and so on with different cards.That is something that is uncontrolable for SCF.As far as feedback,that is something SCF has control over.I don't see why a "step" can't be included,where a trader would have NO CHOICE but to leave a feedback in order to complete a trade.
Re-coding the site to do this would take time,but it can be done.
I just don't see how a 100.00 paypal trade can be ignored without a rating.
That makes absolutely no sense to me.~~Dave C.

duane1969
04-22-2012, 09:02 PM
Forcing left feedback is nowhere near the same as forcing members to use Beckett BV or even ebay BV.BV is to each his own.I would value a Gretzky RC very differently than someone else,and so on ,and so on with different cards.That is something that is uncontrolable for SCF.As far as feedback,that is something SCF has control over.I don't see why a "step" can't be included,where a trader would have NO CHOICE but to leave a feedback in order to complete a trade.
Re-coding the site to do this would take time,but it can be done.
I just don't see how a 100.00 paypal trade can be ignored without a rating.
That makes absolutely no sense to me.~~Dave C.

This has been discussed before. The primary issue is it would have to be coded into the site software which is pretty extensive and costly to do.

hawk2618
04-22-2012, 09:37 PM
Adding 1 step is extensive and costly??....thats a copout sorry.Cmon..How much can it really cost???? Give me a figure please.I'd love to see it.If its more because its time consuming,I think I speak for many,we all have the time here and can wait.Members just want whats due to them for every honest trade.How would it be if no one left feedback at all?,afterall,its not required right?? Lets just trade and after all the deals have been sent and confirmed,lets just pm each other and say Thank-You.Its a problem that can be fixed and should be.It has to be considered.
~~Dave C.

duane1969
04-22-2012, 11:04 PM
Adding 1 step is extensive and costly??....thats a copout sorry.Cmon..How much can it really cost???? Give me a figure please.I'd love to see it.If its more because its time consuming,I think I speak for many,we all have the time here and can wait.Members just want whats due to them for every honest trade.How would it be if no one left feedback at all?,afterall,its not required right?? Lets just trade and after all the deals have been sent and confirmed,lets just pm each other and say Thank-You.Its a problem that can be fixed and should be.It has to be considered.
~~Dave C.

I don't know the exact cost, mostly because that does not fall under the scope of my authority, but I can confirm that it is not as simple as clicking a button or adding a few digits to a line of code. Site code changes are pretty extensive and are a painstaking process (yes, I have done it so I am speaking from experience). Spend a little time teaching yourself how to write HTML code, try building a simple 3-page site that has no glitches or flaws, and then get back to me on how easy it is and how it is a copout.

It is not a problem that has to be fixed. Much like the OP, you are making the mistake of thinking that your problem is the utmost problem for the site to deal with. Most people leave feedback. Going thru an extensive code change to fix a problem that only occasionally occurs is not the top priority, especially since most people who don't leave feedback just forgot and a simple, friendly PM to remind them to leave feedback for you will suffice.

patriotsguy
04-22-2012, 11:29 PM
I think this has run it's course, if anyone has an issue with the rules they can PM instead of having a back and forth ping pong match.

Roger