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shrewsbury
04-26-2012, 06:45 PM
how can we be divided on something as simple as the police checking on your citizenship if they come into contact with you for any reason?

if you are questioned by the police, they should run your name/ss# to see if you have warrants, why not go a step further?

can anyone explain the reasoning that this is unfair or unjust?

it seems it is a classic conservative vs liberal issue, but i can't see sides on this one, seems pretty cut and dry

anyone???

habsheaven
04-26-2012, 08:11 PM
Are they going to "run" the citizenship of everyone, or just the ones of hispanic descent? How many times am I going to be pulled over in my border town and be subjected to this citizen check, once a month, once a week, or every day? Who's going to pay for the extra manpower this would require? Once you get a "hit" the person is going to have to be processed through a system.

shrewsbury
04-26-2012, 09:01 PM
i would hope anyone

and how many times you get checked would be how many times you encounter the police for something else

get pulled over for a traffic violation, get checked

i am not talking about random pull overs

also, the jobs and entitlements we will get back may equal the extra work needed to do this

duane1969
04-26-2012, 09:12 PM
Are they going to "run" the citizenship of everyone, or just the ones of hispanic descent? How many times am I going to be pulled over in my border town and be subjected to this citizen check, once a month, once a week, or every day? Who's going to pay for the extra manpower this would require? Once you get a "hit" the person is going to have to be processed through a system.

Everytime I have ever been pulled over the police have taken my license to the police car and ran a background and warrant check. A couple of years ago I had a game warden check my hunting license and he ran a full FBI background check and made me wait for 30 minutes while he did it.

I see no reason why anyone else should be treated any differently.

tylermckinzie
04-27-2012, 02:27 AM
If this is in reference to the Arizona SB 1070 being heard by the Supreme Court I think that too many people who hear someone is against it misinterpret what it means to be "against it".

As a resident of Arizona and someone who deals with this on a daily news cycle I think it strongly parallels President Obama's healthcare plan, and my feelings are similar on both accounts. I have no problem with what you described, I have problems with some of the provisions of the bill. For example, allowing someone to be stopped for "suspicion of being illegal". This can be the initial reason for the stop. If someone gets pulled over for a violation of any sort, I have no problem with requiring verification of citizenship if there is suspicion. However, what exactly can you develop the suspicion from initially besides profiling? I mean, short of having 30 people in a vehicle driving through the desert, that's a tough one for me to come up with.

In addition, I think the part that legally requires officers to accurately pursue citizenship verifications whenever there is "reasonable suspicion" is a very dangerous position for the officers. If they are too lenient in their unquantifiable suspicion, then they can be held to the provision. However, if they go too far, they open themselves up to discrimination suits from actual citizens. It really puts our local law enforcement in a precarious situation. For me, having an officer spend too long pursuing verification when it eventually comes up prevents them from protecting my safety for threats in the interim. And even if it does come up as illegal, they are now tied into a lengthy process of detainment and arrest that takes them off their beat when that should be the job of federal law enforcement.

Do I feel federal enforcement has its flaws? No doubt. But to increase the workload of police here is also a problem that strains our day to day police responsibilities.

As for the parallels to the health care laws, I feel there are many provisions I agree with. However, at the same time, any bill that has 2700 pages is bound to have some I disagree with. In both cases, I feel it was a valiant effort at a huge problem that is riddled with personal agendas that overextends the authority granted to the creators. It isn't just a liberal/conservative debate to me on either account. Unfortunately, for the majority of Americans that fall more moderate as I do, politics as usual has created a win vs. lose proposition that leaves no room for compromise.

And as my final note, I think the driving force of the Arizona laws is the exhorbiant amount of money spent on lobbiests by our private prisons. I don't want my illegal immigrants to be sentences automatically to 6 months in jail. How exactly, at a cost of hundreds of dollars per day, that decrease my economic obligation? SEND THEM BACK!

lloydr04
04-27-2012, 02:34 AM
If this is in reference to the Arizona SB 1070 being heard by the Supreme Court I think that too many people who hear someone is against it misinterpret what it means to be "against it".

As a resident of Arizona and someone who deals with this on a daily news cycle I think it strongly parallels President Obama's healthcare plan, and my feelings are similar on both accounts. I have no problem with what you described, I have problems with some of the provisions of the bill. For example, allowing someone to be stopped for "suspicion of being illegal". This can be the initial reason for the stop. If someone gets pulled over for a violation of any sort, I have no problem with requiring verification of citizenship if there is suspicion. However, what exactly can you develop the suspicion from initially besides profiling? I mean, short of having 30 people in a vehicle driving through the desert, that's a tough one for me to come up with.

In addition, I think the part that legally requires officers to accurately pursue citizenship verifications whenever there is "reasonable suspicion" is a very dangerous position for the officers. If they are too lenient in their unquantifiable suspicion, then they can be held to the provision. However, if they go too far, they open themselves up to discrimination suits from actual citizens. It really puts our local law enforcement in a precarious situation. For me, having an officer spend too long pursuing verification when it eventually comes up prevents them from protecting my safety for threats in the interim. And even if it does come up as illegal, they are now tied into a lengthy process of detainment and arrest that takes them off their beat when that should be the job of federal law enforcement.

Do I feel federal enforcement has its flaws? No doubt. But to increase the workload of police here is also a problem that strains our day to day police responsibilities.

As for the parallels to the health care laws, I feel there are many provisions I agree with. However, at the same time, any bill that has 2700 pages is bound to have some I disagree with. In both cases, I feel it was a valiant effort at a huge problem that is riddled with personal agendas that overextends the authority granted to the creators. It isn't just a liberal/conservative debate to me on either account. Unfortunately, for the majority of Americans that fall more moderate as I do, politics as usual has created a win vs. lose proposition that leaves no room for compromise.

And as my final note, I think the driving force of the Arizona laws is the exhorbiant amount of money spent on lobbiests by our private prisons. I don't want my illegal immigrants to be sentences automatically to 6 months in jail. How exactly, at a cost of hundreds of dollars per day, that decrease my economic obligation? SEND THEM BACK!

http://3beautifulbamfs.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/the_rock_clap_clap_gif.gif?w=529

duane1969
04-27-2012, 09:33 AM
Tyler, you make very valid points and I agree with them all. Police should not be identifying people who "look illegal" as that is blatant profiling (although looking for anyone that looks like they fit any particular description is technically profiling).

I agree that requiring officers to pursue proof of residency or lack thereof when no evidence thatthey are illegal is immediately present is excessive. However, if a non-English speaking person is stopped and can not provide valid US I.D. then that is pretty significant proof by itself and should be pursued.

Ultimately I place the blame for all of this on the Fed government. It is our government's responsibility to secure our borders. They are blatantly failing to do that and in some regards appear to be intentionally avoiding doing it. While other countries secure their borders with machine gun placements, armed patrols and security camera we have huge gaping holes that thousands of people casually walk through without even being noticed. Being angry or upset with Arizona lawmakers for trying to deal with the problem is misguided anger. If the Fed did it's job then laws like SB 1070 wouldn't even be needed.

Star_Cards
04-27-2012, 10:57 AM
I also agree with tyler. I really don't know how a person is supposed to be suspicious of one's citizenship. Officers shouldn't allowed or made to do so. I'm fine with people being checked out when they are stopped for other violations.

Also agree with duane that the Fed is the ones that should secure the borders. However, I've always felt that enforcing labor laws would be much more effective than blocking or guarding every mile of the border. If they tightened the strings on businesses who hire illegals they could reduce a large number of people coming over illegally. I don;t know numbers but I'd assume that the majority come to work.

pghin08
04-27-2012, 11:23 AM
Obama has actually cracked down pretty hard on illegal immigration, he just hasn't had good PR on the job he's done. The US deported a record amount of illegal immigrants last year, something like 400,000. And in the past 6 years, the amount of illegal immigrants attempting to enter the US is down around 60% (that number is based off the amount of people apprehended by the Border Patrol, but it's what a lot of people use to gauge the amount of people trying to enter the US). We actually have just as many illegal Mexican immigrants leaving the country as we do entering it.

Credit should be due in part to Mr. Obama on this, but also attributed to both the recession and the increase and ease of availability of birth control methods in Mexico, which has lowered its birth rates to near-U.S. levels.

angel0430
04-27-2012, 11:27 AM
The easiest way to do this is through the computer system when the run the warrants/license check...they can add a provision to the server where it would pull citizenship...if there is anything wrong, then they can ask for more documentation. I just think that pulling you over just because you "look" illegal will be motive enough to pull everyone over....there is nothing illegal about looking like something...u need to commit something against the law for this.

duane1969
04-27-2012, 11:47 AM
I don't see how you "look illegal" anyway. According to Census data Arizona is nearly 60% Latino. Are they going to pull over every "illegal looking" Latino in the state? Are there not police officers that "look illegal" too? That whole concept is stupid.

tylermckinzie
04-27-2012, 09:08 PM
I don't see how you "look illegal" anyway. According to Census data Arizona is nearly 60% Latino. Are they going to pull over every "illegal looking" Latino in the state? Are there not police officers that "look illegal" too? That whole concept is stupid.

Welcome to the question that most of us in Arizona. Like I said, no one here questioned if something needed to be done. No matter what the polls said, most people didn't agree with some of the unnecessary provisions that were tacked on. That and the negative press resulted in the recall and removal of one of it's chief proponents. Just because the loudest voices talked it up didn't mean everyone loved it.

MadMan1978
04-28-2012, 08:31 AM
Tyler, you make very valid points and I agree with them all. Police should not be identifying people who "look illegal" as that is blatant profiling (although looking for anyone that looks like they fit any particular description is technically profiling).

I agree that requiring officers to pursue proof of residency or lack thereof when no evidence thatthey are illegal is immediately present is excessive. However, if a non-English speaking person is stopped and can not provide valid US I.D. then that is pretty significant proof by itself and should be pursued.

Ultimately I place the blame for all of this on the Fed government. It is our government's responsibility to secure our borders. They are blatantly failing to do that and in some regards appear to be intentionally avoiding doing it. While other countries secure their borders with machine gun placements, armed patrols and security camera we have huge gaping holes that thousands of people casually walk through without even being noticed. Being angry or upset with Arizona lawmakers for trying to deal with the problem is misguided anger. If the Fed did it's job then laws like SB 1070 wouldn't even be needed.
respectfully I would disagree

I have meet and knew a couple people born in the US-which grants them citizenship- and can barely speak English and yes have a drivers license

-again another large debate on how and who will pay...I still believe using troops and having bases closer to the southern border would help


The Fed is doing that job. ICE does not have the man power with everything they have to handle and maintain.


SB 1070 is nothing but racial profiling-unless there are some east Germans running the border into AZ that hasnt made the news cycle. I am sure you guys would share that kind of news! :heh:

duwal
04-28-2012, 08:35 AM
Obama has actually cracked down pretty hard on illegal immigration, he just hasn't had good PR on the job he's done. The US deported a record amount of illegal immigrants last year, something like 400,000. And in the past 6 years, the amount of illegal immigrants attempting to enter the US is down around 60% (that number is based off the amount of people apprehended by the Border Patrol, but it's what a lot of people use to gauge the amount of people trying to enter the US). We actually have just as many illegal Mexican immigrants leaving the country as we do entering it.

Credit should be due in part to Mr. Obama on this, but also attributed to both the recession and the increase and ease of availability of birth control methods in Mexico, which has lowered its birth rates to near-U.S. levels.


actually I think I read earlier this week that the amount of illegals leaving the U.S. has surpassed the amount trying to get in now

duane1969
04-28-2012, 09:36 AM
respectfully I would disagree

I have meet and knew a couple people born in the US-which grants them citizenship- and can barely speak English and yes have a drivers license

And I bet they can easily produce proof of citizenship. Not being able to speak the language is not the one and only identifier of an illegal, but it is a pretty darn good one. If it quacks like a duck...



-again another large debate on how and who will pay...I still believe using troops and having bases closer to the southern border would help

It probably would, and most countries use military to patrol their borders, but we have a hard time getting enough troops as it is. With so many coming home now this would be a good option of what to do with them.

Another option would be to make the Border Patrol a branch of the military that falls under the scope of the Pentagon. People could sign up for it after they graduate high school just like they do for the Army, Marines, Air force and Navy and serve a 4 year term just like other military branches. If they want to make a career of it and serve 20+ years then they get a military retirement just like other branches. (you gave me this idea when I read this)



The Fed is doing that job. ICE does not have the man power with everything they have to handle and maintain.

If Immigration needs more manpower then the Fed needs to provide the funding for it. Obama spent billions "creating jobs" everywhere else, how about creating a few in INS?



SB 1070 is nothing but racial profiling-unless there are some east Germans running the border into AZ that hasnt made the news cycle. I am sure you guys would share that kind of news! :heh:

There is...they just look like Mexicans :pound:

*censored*
04-28-2012, 02:02 PM
"I have meet and knew a couple people born in the US-which grants them citizenship- and can barely speak English and yes have a drivers license"

True. Just look at this weekend's NFL Draft.

MadMan1978
04-28-2012, 06:28 PM
And I bet they can easily produce proof of citizenship. Not being able to speak the language is not the one and only identifier of an illegal, but it is a pretty darn good one. If it quacks like a duck...

yes they can it is called a BIRTH CERTIFICATE... The same that you would use You carry yours around just in case?

It probably would, and most countries use military to patrol their borders, but we have a hard time getting enough troops as it is. With so many coming home now this would be a good option of what to do with them.

Another option would be to make the Border Patrol a branch of the military that falls under the scope of the Pentagon. People could sign up for it after they graduate high school just like they do for the Army, Marines, Air force and Navy and serve a 4 year term just like other military branches. If they want to make a career of it and serve 20+ years then they get a military retirement just like other branches. (you gave me this idea when I read this)

-Idea's do come...


If Immigration needs more manpower then the Fed needs to provide the funding for it. Obama spent billions "creating jobs" everywhere else, how about creating a few in INS?

-smaller government?

There is...they just look like Mexicans :pound:

-expect pale white skin and blonde hair


.....

duane1969
04-29-2012, 05:53 PM
yes they can it is called a BIRTH CERTIFICATE... The same that you would use You carry yours around just in case?

Exactly my point. The issue that is being raised is that there is a large contigent of people who can not speak the language and CAN NOT produce any proof that they are a resident.

And yes, I carry 3 forms of ID with me at all times, all of which required me proving who I am/citizenship to acquire.

MadMan1978
04-29-2012, 06:15 PM
Exactly my point. The issue that is being raised is that there is a large contigent of people who can not speak the language and CAN NOT produce any proof that they are a resident.

And yes, I carry 3 forms of ID with me at all times, all of which required me proving who I am/citizenship to acquire.


and those would be?
and please remember I live in a different state so the laws a bit different...

duane1969
04-29-2012, 10:37 PM
Driver's license, SS card and handgun concealed carry permit.

Driver's license requires a birth certificate, SS card and a bill from a utility company showing your name and the address that you claim as yours.

SS card is obvious. Gotta have a birth certificate or passport and some form of ID such as a driver's license, military ID or health insurance card.

Handgun license requires a driver's license or state issued photo ID and an FBI background check.

MadMan1978
04-30-2012, 12:17 AM
Driver's license, SS card and handgun concealed carry permit.

Driver's license requires a birth certificate, SS card and a bill from a utility company showing your name and the address that you claim as yours.

SS card is obvious. Gotta have a birth certificate or passport and some form of ID such as a driver's license, military ID or health insurance card.

Handgun license requires a driver's license or state issued photo ID and an FBI background check.

actually Daune Drivers license does not require a Birth Cert an SS card at one time did not no idea...anyone paying into SS needs a number...a certain block

and NONE of those prove Citizenship in the US!

I see your connection but they do not
the following documents do
-Certified birth certificate issued by the city, county or state of birth
-Previously issued, undamaged US passport
-Consular Report of Birth (of U.S. citizen) Abroad or Certification of Birth
-Naturalization Certificate
-Certificate of Citizenship


Now SB1070 for me is not that fact you have to carry someting for ID...yes you should at all times have it handy. The issue for on this law is they can stop for pretty much anything...lets be honest this is racial profiling at its best in my opinion...

Will be interesting to hear the Supreme Court Ruling on this

duane1969
04-30-2012, 09:56 AM
actually Daune Drivers license does not require a Birth Cert an SS card at one time did not no idea...anyone paying into SS needs a number...a certain block

and NONE of those prove Citizenship in the US!

I see your connection but they do not
the following documents do
-Certified birth certificate issued by the city, county or state of birth
-Previously issued, undamaged US passport
-Consular Report of Birth (of U.S. citizen) Abroad or Certification of Birth
-Naturalization Certificate
-Certificate of Citizenship


Now SB1070 for me is not that fact you have to carry someting for ID...yes you should at all times have it handy. The issue for on this law is they can stop for pretty much anything...lets be honest this is racial profiling at its best in my opinion...

Will be interesting to hear the Supreme Court Ruling on this

In the state of WV you need a birth certificate and at least one item showing your mailing address to get a driver's license. I don't know about your state, but here you have to actually prove you are a citizen to get a DL.

And the items I mentioned do prove citizenship because without the other proofs of citizenship they can not be gotten. By having them you are displaying that you have already proven to a government agency that you are a citizen.

mrveggieman
04-30-2012, 10:02 AM
Driver's license, SS card and handgun concealed carry permit.

Driver's license requires a birth certificate, SS card and a bill from a utility company showing your name and the address that you claim as yours.

SS card is obvious. Gotta have a birth certificate or passport and some form of ID such as a driver's license, military ID or health insurance card.

Handgun license requires a driver's license or state issued photo ID and an FBI background check.


What if you lose or someone steals your wallet? I read that you should never carry your ss card around with you unless you need it.

pghin08
04-30-2012, 10:15 AM
What if you lose or someone steals your wallet? I read that you should never carry your ss card around with you unless you need it.

I know I don't.

shrewsbury
04-30-2012, 10:52 AM
What if you lose or someone steals your wallet? I read that you should never carry your ss card around with you unless you need it.
in ohio you need a copy of your BC to get a new SS card.

duane1969
04-30-2012, 11:00 AM
What if you lose or someone steals your wallet? I read that you should never carry your ss card around with you unless you need it.

There is certainly that risk. However, I am one of those people that id OCD about my wallet. I don't even keep it in my back pocket like most guys, it is always in my front pocket.

Your SS number isn't that secure anyway. Look at how often you have to give it to someone. The only thing you secure by not carrying your card is that someone will not have your physical card. If they have your number it is pretty easy to make a fake card. Plus there are about 5 different variations of what the card looks like, depending on when it was issued, so fakes are that much harder to spot. I won't post links but it took me all of 10 second to find a blank SS card on the internet. If someone has your number and a decent colorjet printer they can easily make a fake card.

MadMan1978
04-30-2012, 11:37 AM
In the state of WV you need a birth certificate and at least one item showing your mailing address to get a driver's license. I don't know about your state, but here you have to actually prove you are a citizen to get a DL.

And the items I mentioned do prove citizenship because without the other proofs of citizenship they can not be gotten. By having them you are displaying that you have already proven to a government agency that you are a citizen.


your Drivers license and SS card DO NOT Prove Citizenship!

Yes those are documents used to obtain those but I know for a FACT you dont need the to obtain them. So how does a teen willing with mom and dad get a license?

For you a a state issed BC proves your citizenship. the way you are trying to extend those to the drivers license doesnt hold up. Resident Aliens need a drivers license ...I assume...You dont need to be a Citizen to get a Drivers license. As well they will need a SS Number....

Proving Residence in a state is much easier then proving Citizenship. So the fact is the stuff you carry in your wallet...does not prove Citizenship.

Check your State I know in Mass they do not...

MadMan1978
04-30-2012, 11:38 AM
and they are correct NEVER carry your SS card.

duane1969
04-30-2012, 11:45 AM
From the WV Dept of Motor Vehicles

You must have 1 of the following:

Original Social Security Card
Wage and Tax Statement (W-2) or payroll stub with the applicant’s employer name and employer ID number, as well as the applicant’s name, address, and Social Security Number
SSA/1099 Form (Social Security Benefit Form)

and you must have 1 of the following:


U.S. Birth Certificate: An original or certified copy of a United States-issued birth certificate (U.S. Department of State and U.S. Military birth certificates ARE acceptable. Hospital birth certificates are NOT acceptable
Valid unexpired U.S. Passport
If foreign born, valid, unexpired Department of Homeland Security (DHS) Documents


and you must have 2 of the following:


WV utility bills (not more than 60 days old)
Tax records with a WV street address
WV mortgage documents, WV homeowner insurance documents for a WV residence or proof of WV home ownership
WV W-2 form not more than 18 months old
WV weapons permit
A Valid WV Motor Vehicles registration card
WV voter’s registration card
WV driver’s eligibility certificate (School Enrollment Form) if applicant is under age 18 with the applicant’s WV street address
WV Homestead Tax exemption
Proof of WV Public Assistance
Residential rental or lease agreement
WV DMV Affidavit of West Virginia Residency
College admissions letter that shows the applicant is an in-state resident
Letter from any of the below offices that show the applicant has been a WV resident at their facility and that shows the current physical address, letterhead preferred but not required:


WV Homeless Shelter, Hotel or Job Corp
WV Senior Citizens Home
WV Rehabilitation Center
WV Nursing Home
WV Children’s Home, Orphanage or Shelter
WV Battered Women’s Shelter


Benefits letter from WV Health and Human Resources
Check stub from any WV employer that shows a current physical address (cannot be hand written).
Social Security benefits letter
WV Professional License
Letter from the applicant’s employer stating that all utility and house arrangements are provided by the employer
United States Selective Service card
Letter from the US Post Office that shows a new, physical, WV address assigned by the Post Office for the applicant
WV Dealer temporary registration card
WV Bank Statement, Auto Insurance or Hunting License
License Plate renewal form
911 letter


And no, a driver's license does not prove residency, but it proves that I have provided proof that I am a resident, so for the purposes of a police spot check for residency I will be covered and it will be acceptable as proof of residency. There is no way possible that I could meet the above requirements and be an illegal alien.

pghin08
04-30-2012, 11:45 AM
There is certainly that risk. However, I am one of those people that id OCD about my wallet. I don't even keep it in my back pocket like most guys, it is always in my front pocket.

Your SS number isn't that secure anyway. Look at how often you have to give it to someone. The only thing you secure by not carrying your card is that someone will not have your physical card. If they have your number it is pretty easy to make a fake card. Plus there are about 5 different variations of what the card looks like, depending on when it was issued, so fakes are that much harder to spot. I won't post links but it took me all of 10 second to find a blank SS card on the internet. If someone has your number and a decent colorjet printer they can easily make a fake card.

I thought I was the only one that did that. It's part safety, part the fact that I hate feeling like I have a crooked butt.

MadMan1978
04-30-2012, 11:47 AM
Proof of Residence yes

Citizenship no...

MadMan1978
04-30-2012, 11:48 AM
So in West Virgina you have to be a US Citizen to obtain a Drivers license?

edit I see that you dont
by accept Homeland security Documents

duane1969
04-30-2012, 11:53 AM
I thought I was the only one that did that. It's part safety, part the fact that I hate feeling like I have a crooked butt.

I used to drive a tow truck in Washington D.C. in the 80's and tow truck drivers were a major target of robberies as we used to carry a fair amount of cash back then. I carried my actual wallet in my front pocket and a decoy with a few dollars and a few of those fake credit cards that you get in the mail in it in my back pocket where wallets are usually kept. I never got robbed but my theory was that if someone said "Give me your wallet!" I could hand them the decoy from my back pocket and they would most likely run off with it and not get anything of value.

That got me in the habit of keeping my wallet in my front pocket and I have done it every since.