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*censored*
05-01-2012, 09:20 PM
Or so says a North Carolina Baptist minister.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/01/north-carolina-pastor-sea_n_1468618.html?ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false

Maybe we could cure intolerance with a few targeted beatings instead.

shrewsbury
05-01-2012, 09:36 PM
better yet we could cure world hunger

mrveggieman
05-02-2012, 08:36 AM
This is really stupid. My bishop teaches that homosexuality is an evil spirit. That being said if I had a child who was gay beating him for being gay would not help I would give him my best example of how a man should carry himself and also pray for him.

shrewsbury
05-02-2012, 08:42 AM
I would give him my best example of how a man should carry himself and also pray for him

does this mean you think he shouldn't be gay? and if he is, he is possesed?

i thought you were in support of gay marriages?

mrveggieman
05-02-2012, 08:48 AM
does this mean you think he shouldn't be gay? and if he is, he is possesed?

i thought you were in support of gay marriages?

I believe that consenting adults should indeed be able to do as they please. I also believe that any law that is on the books should have a secular non religious purpose. The only reason why people are against homosexuals and gay marriage is because of religion. Yes I am infavor of legal gay marriages but I still do not believe that homosexuality is right by God and would pray that spirit off of any of my family members.

habsheaven
05-02-2012, 08:55 AM
This is really stupid. My bishop teaches that homosexuality is an evil spirit. That being said if I had a child who was gay beating him for being gay would not help I would give him my best example of how a man should carry himself and also pray for him.

So in other words. You would REJECT who he really is, and hope he will change to suit your concept of right and wrong.

I have raised two beautiful girls. They are intelligent, confident, kind, caring, compassionate, tolerant, respectful INDIVIDUALS. One is attracted to boys, the other is attracted to girls. They both have our love, support and ACCEPTANCE. They need nothing else from us.

mrveggieman
05-02-2012, 09:00 AM
So in other words. You would REJECT who he really is, and hope he will change to suit your concept of right and wrong.

I have raised two beautiful girls. They are intelligent, confident, kind, caring, compassionate, tolerant, respectful INDIVIDUALS. One is attracted to boys, the other is attracted to girls. They both have our love, support and ACCEPTANCE. They need nothing else from us.


I would always love my kids no matter what just like you and any other parent would. I believe that homosexuality just like fornication is a sin. (Not that I never fornicated but it still is a sin). I would also believe that you feel that stealing is a sin. If you had a child that steals you would still love that child despite the fact that they steal and would do everything in your power to get them to stop.

habsheaven
05-02-2012, 09:11 AM
I would always love my kids no matter what just like you and any other parent would. I believe that homosexuality just like fornication is a sin. (Not that I never fornicated but it still is a sin). I would also believe that you feel that stealing is a sin. If you had a child that steals you would still love that child despite the fact that they steal and would do everything in your power to get them to stop.

You can hope and pray a child will stop stealing, afterall, it is a CHOICE. Being gay is NOT. To hope and pray your child changes his sexual orientation is a rejection of who that child IS. Loving a child and ACCEPTING a child are two different things. And LOVE without ACCEPTANCE isn't love at all.

mrveggieman
05-02-2012, 09:18 AM
You can hope and pray a child will stop stealing, afterall, it is a CHOICE. Being gay is NOT. To hope and pray your child changes his sexual orientation is a rejection of who that child IS. Loving a child and ACCEPTING a child are two different things. And LOVE without ACCEPTANCE isn't love at all.


We all have sinful inpulses. The sin is acting on them which would include any type of fornication weather straight or gay. There are many theories on why people are homosexual and no one really knows for a fact why people are gay. I will always love my family no matter what. I hate the sin but never the sinner.

Star_Cards
05-02-2012, 09:27 AM
sounds about right. Beatings are the best way to train a dog so it has to work on gays too... right. <sarcasm alert>

I'll never get the religious stance that homosexuality is wrong or evil or a sin. Although there are a lot of ideals that I just don't understand within religion so that's not really a surprise. It's baffling the amount of energy some people use up worrying about someone else's sexual preferences.

angel0430
05-02-2012, 09:30 AM
We all have sinful inpulses. The sin is acting on them which would include any type of fornication weather straight or gay. There are many theories on why people are homosexual and no one really knows for a fact why people are gay. I will always love my family no matter what. I hate the sin but never the sinner.

Contradicting in my opinion. So you have a rapist, you hate the sin (RAPE) but you like the sinner (rapist)....think about it.

mrveggieman
05-02-2012, 09:34 AM
Contradicting in my opinion. So you have a rapist, you hate the sin (RAPE) but you like the sinner (rapist)....think about it.


I don't know any rapist on a personal level so I can't say that I like any of them per se. If I had a family member who was a rapist I would still love them but hope and pray that they would repent, learn their lesson and that justice would be served.

habsheaven
05-02-2012, 09:35 AM
We all have sinful inpulses. The sin is acting on them which would include any type of fornication weather straight or gay. There are many theories on why people are homosexual and no one really knows for a fact why people are gay. I will always love my family no matter what. I hate the sin but never the sinner.

When you hate something about a person's actual being, you may be able to separate it with a catchy phrase but I guarantee you, that individual does not see the separation.

mrveggieman
05-02-2012, 09:38 AM
When you hate something about a person's actual being, you may be able to separate it with a catchy phrase but I guarantee you, that individual does not see the separation.


Being black, white, biracial, male or female is not a choice. Stealing, raping, robbing, is. There is not enough evidence on either side on weather having a particular sexual orientation is a choice or not. However we all chose who we want to lay down with. If a family member of mines chose to lay down with the same gender if they are of age consent they do have a legal right to do so which I support and defend to the fullest. I will also continue to love them and pray that God removes that spirit of homosexuality from them.

habsheaven
05-02-2012, 09:41 AM
Being black, white, biracial, male or female is not a choice. Stealing, raping, robbing, is. There is not enough evidence on either side on weather having a particular sexual orientation is a choice or not. However we all chose who we want to lay down with. If a family member of mines chose to lay down with the same gender if they are of age consent they do have a legal right to do so which I support and defend to the fullest. I will also continue to love them and pray that God removes that spirit of homosexuality from them.

So you CHOSE to be hetrosexual? When did you make this choice?

pghin08
05-02-2012, 09:41 AM
Being black, white, biracial, male or female is not a choice. Stealing, raping, robbing, is. There is not enough evidence on either side on weather having a particular sexual orientation is a choice or not. However we all chose who we want to lay down with. If a family member of mines chose to lay down with the same gender if they are of age consent they do have a legal right to do so which I support and defend to the fullest. I will also continue to love them and pray that God removes that spirit of homosexuality from them.

But if homosexuality is a spirit that is able to be lifted from them by God, then why did he put it there to begin with?

habsheaven
05-02-2012, 09:43 AM
But if homosexuality is a spirit that is able to be lifted from them by God, then why did he put it there to begin with?

He didn't. Homosexuality is a BAD thing. Obviously, it is the work of SATAN. Afterall, you cannot have GOOD, without EVIL.

pghin08, Spielberg you will never be. lol

pghin08
05-02-2012, 09:50 AM
He didn't. Homosexuality is a BAD thing. Obviously, it is the work of SATAN. Afterall, you cannot have GOOD, without EVIL.

pghin08, Spielberg you will never be. lol

True story. By the way, I have also never made the "choice" to be hetero. Was I supposed to do that when I was baptized? I thought I was forgetting something that day.

mrveggieman
05-02-2012, 09:51 AM
So you CHOSE to be hetrosexual? When did you make this choice?


I always knew that I liked females since I was about 4 years old. I don't know what made me like girls but I am glad that I do.

habsheaven
05-02-2012, 09:54 AM
I always knew that I liked females since I was about 4 years old. I don't know what made me like girls but I am glad that I do.

I did too. Yet you seem to think that the gay 4 year old is making a choice?

mrveggieman
05-02-2012, 09:54 AM
But if homosexuality is a spirit that is able to be lifted from them by God, then why did he put it there to begin with?


I'm not really sure of that so I can't give you an honest answer. I'm sure that there are others on here that would be glad to give you their spin on it.

mrveggieman
05-02-2012, 09:58 AM
I did too. Yet you seem to think that the gay 4 year old is making a choice?


It may not be a choice but I would be alarmed if my 4 year old started to act gay. Clearly there is something wrong and I would do everything in my power to nip it in the bud. Again I am not judging how the next man decides to raise his kids or what morals or religious views that he teaches them but I must do what I feel in my heart is right for mines.

Star_Cards
05-02-2012, 09:58 AM
Being black, white, biracial, male or female is not a choice. Stealing, raping, robbing, is. There is not enough evidence on either side on weather having a particular sexual orientation is a choice or not. However we all chose who we want to lay down with. If a family member of mines chose to lay down with the same gender if they are of age consent they do have a legal right to do so which I support and defend to the fullest. I will also continue to love them and pray that God removes that spirit of homosexuality from them.

I think that the fact that every person has things they like and are attracted to sexually that just happen is evidence. Even if you choose to participate in a specific sexual act, usually it's done so because there is a sexual attraction or urge to do so, a drive from within that really isn't explainable from a mental aspect. When I say that, it's more about a physical reaction that is driven by your hormones and isn't controlled by your mind. One's mind does not make the choice to find a specific sexual situation pleasurable or not. Your body does that. Even as a straight person there are things one finds sexually gratifying that they didn't sit down one day and make the choice that they would find it sexually pleasurable.

Heck, that that outside of sex. Did you make the choice to be ticklish or the choice to like certain foods? I'm ticklish in spots and never said, "you know what, I'm going to be ticklish." I mention this because there are just things that happen that are outside of our mental control.

pghin08
05-02-2012, 10:01 AM
It may not be a choice but I would be alarmed if my 4 year old started to act gay. Clearly there is something wrong and I would do everything in my power to nip it in the bud. Again I am not judging how the next man decides to raise his kids or what morals or religious views that he teaches them but I must do what I feel in my heart is right for mines.

That's about as fair as a statement gets. Who am I to sit here and tell you how to raise your kids? The world would be a better place if we would all sit back and be welcome to the fact that our opinions, while we think of them as valid, may be wrong, and we shouldn't force them upon someone else.

An appreciation of uncertainty is a cornerstone of rationality.

Star_Cards
05-02-2012, 10:05 AM
It may not be a choice but I would be alarmed if my 4 year old started to act gay. Clearly there is something wrong and I would do everything in my power to nip it in the bud. Again I am not judging how the next man decides to raise his kids or what morals or religious views that he teaches them but I must do what I feel in my heart is right for mines.

that's the thing, you can't really nip it in the bud. Depending on how you would handle it the odds are you'd just make him feel bad about himself or make him feel that you're not proud of him because he was gay. I don't have kids so I can;t say how I would react, but nipping it in the bud would not cross my mind.

habsheaven
05-02-2012, 10:05 AM
It may not be a choice but I would be alarmed if my 4 year old started to act gay. Clearly there is something wrong and I would do everything in my power to nip it in the bud. Again I am not judging how the next man decides to raise his kids or what morals or religious views that he teaches them but I must do what I feel in my heart is right for mines.

How so? If it is that clear, explain it. What exactly is wrong with it? The fact that you read it in a book full of other "acceptable" practices that society now deems wrong?

mrveggieman
05-02-2012, 10:16 AM
that's the thing, you can't really nip it in the bud. Depending on how you would handle it the odds are you'd just make him feel bad about himself or make him feel that you're not proud of him because he was gay. I don't have kids so I can;t say how I would react, but nipping it in the bud would not cross my mind.


I would always be proud of my child but the devil is indeed a liar if anyone thinks I would be proud of him or her being gay.

mrveggieman
05-02-2012, 10:35 AM
How so? If it is that clear, explain it. What exactly is wrong with it? The fact that you read it in a book full of other "acceptable" practices that society now deems wrong?


There is nothing illegal with being gay just like there is nothing illegal with drinking liquor (if you are over 21 and do it responsibly), or smoking cigarettes. I support and defend any consenting adults to do any of the above in a responsible manner. However different religions all agree that homosexuality is morally wrong. Again I have no idea why God is against it but I know that he is.

habsheaven
05-02-2012, 10:41 AM
There is nothing illegal with being gay just like there is nothing illegal with drinking liquor (if you are over 21 and do it responsibly), or smoking cigarettes. I support and defend any consenting adults to do any of the above in a responsible manner. However different religions all agree that homosexuality is morally wrong. Again I have no idea why God is against it but I know that he is.

So you are FOR slavery? God condones that.

lloydr04
05-02-2012, 10:44 AM
So you are FOR slavery? God condones that.

Do you reach ALL the time?:confused0024:

Star_Cards
05-02-2012, 10:48 AM
I would always be proud of my child but the devil is indeed a liar if anyone thinks I would be proud of him or her being gay.

well I don't think any parent is technically proud of their child for what they are attracted to sexually. Let's hope you don't have a gay child because it sounds like they'd have a tough time dealing with it if you are telling them they have evil in them and should not feel the way they do. I am glad that you wouldn't be the type that would kick them out of the house or disown them though

duane1969
05-02-2012, 10:49 AM
So you are FOR slavery? God condones that.

Sorry but I need some proof that God condones slavery. I was raised in the church and have read a lot of the Bible. I have yet to see anything that supports a claim that God supports slavery.

lloydr04
05-02-2012, 10:51 AM
Sorry but I need some proof that God condones slavery. I was raised in the church and have read a lot of the Bible. I have yet to see anything that supports a claim that God supports slavery.

:thumb:

mrveggieman
05-02-2012, 11:04 AM
So you are FOR slavery? God condones that.


The slave that you are referring to would be the equivalent to being an employee of a company today. And yes I do condone any able bodied person having a job. :thumb:

habsheaven
05-02-2012, 11:04 AM
Sorry but I need some proof that God condones slavery. I was raised in the church and have read a lot of the Bible. I have yet to see anything that supports a claim that God supports slavery.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

Sounds like acceptance to me. A slave, not an employee. You do not pass them on to your children like property if they are employees. Talk about "stretching".

mrveggieman
05-02-2012, 11:07 AM
well I don't think any parent is technically proud of their child for what they are attracted to sexually. Let's hope you don't have a gay child because it sounds like they'd have a tough time dealing with it if you are telling them they have evil in them and should not feel the way they do. I am glad that you wouldn't be the type that would kick them out of the house or disown them though


I don't think that any good parent would kick their child out of the house for being gay or anything like that. If the parent really cared for the child they would explain to them why they believe being gay is wrong and offer them their prayers. Everything else would be up to God.

duane1969
05-02-2012, 11:23 AM
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

Sounds like acceptance to me. A slave, not an employee. You do not pass them on to your children like property if they are employees. Talk about "stretching".

Taken out of context. Read the previous verses.

Leviticus 25:39-41 NLT

39 “If one of your fellow Israelites falls into poverty and is forced to sell himself to you, do not treat him as a slave. 40 Treat him instead as a hired worker or as a temporary resident who lives with you, and he will serve you only until the Year of Jubilee. 41 At that time he and his children will no longer be obligated to you, and they will return to their clans and go back to the land originally allotted to their ancestors.

This is in regards to a time when people who were stuggling economically would "sell themselves" to perform services or duties. Today we call it being self-employed.

habsheaven
05-02-2012, 11:30 AM
Taken out of context. Read the previous verses.

Leviticus 25:39-40 NLT

39 “If one of your fellow Israelites falls into poverty and is forced to sell himself to you, do not treat him as a slave. 40 Treat him instead as a hired worker or as a temporary resident who lives with you, and he will serve you only until the Year of Jubilee. 41 At that time he and his children will no longer be obligated to you, and they will return to their clans and go back to the land originally allotted to their ancestors.

This is in regards to a time when people who were stuggling economically would "sell themselves" to perform services or duties. Today we call it getting a job.

No it isn't. Those verses are talking about separate issues. As indicated by the bolded text. Common sense dictates that if you are not supposed to treat a fellow Israelite as a slave, then their must be someone that can be treated like a slave. There would be no point to make the distinction.

Star_Cards
05-02-2012, 01:26 PM
Taken out of context. Read the previous verses.

Leviticus 25:39-41 NLT

39 “If one of your fellow Israelites falls into poverty and is forced to sell himself to you, do not treat him as a slave. 40 Treat him instead as a hired worker or as a temporary resident who lives with you, and he will serve you only until the Year of Jubilee. 41 At that time he and his children will no longer be obligated to you, and they will return to their clans and go back to the land originally allotted to their ancestors.

This is in regards to a time when people who were stuggling economically would "sell themselves" to perform services or duties. Today we call it being self-employed.

wouldn't that only apply to "fellow isrealites"? I read it as saying that is a fellow isrealite needed to sell themselves due to hard economic times that you shouldn't treat them like slaves. It really doesn't say anything about not having slaves that are "foreigners who live amongst you".

I see those two passages as speaking about two separate people. isrealites that you shouldn't treat as slaves and foreigners that you can enslave.

of course this is just how I read these two passages as my bible knowledge is limited.

Star_Cards
05-02-2012, 01:28 PM
I don't think that any good parent would kick their child out of the house for being gay or anything like that. If the parent really cared for the child they would explain to them why they believe being gay is wrong and offer them their prayers. Everything else would be up to God.

that is definitely good to know. however I'd say that it would still have a negative impact on the kid if their father was telling them an uncontrollable force inside them makes them wrong or is an element of evil inside them.

PrinceMegatron
05-02-2012, 01:51 PM
What an idiot.

ensbergcollector
05-02-2012, 02:13 PM
i'll risk it...

christians view homosexuality as a sexual sin, much in the same vein as having sex before marriage. If my 13 year old son discovers he has desires to have sex with any female who will let him, should I refrain from telling him that is wrong and he shouldn't act on it for fear that I with damage him and hurt him? Those desires are natural and he was born with them. Should I therefore not tell him I think it would be a sin to act on it?

mrveggieman
05-02-2012, 02:45 PM
i'll risk it...

christians view homosexuality as a sexual sin, much in the same vein as having sex before marriage. If my 13 year old son discovers he has desires to have sex with any female who will let him, should I refrain from telling him that is wrong and he shouldn't act on it for fear that I with damage him and hurt him? Those desires are natural and he was born with them. Should I therefore not tell him I think it would be a sin to act on it?


I agree with you 1000%.

habsheaven
05-02-2012, 03:01 PM
i'll risk it...

christians view homosexuality as a sexual sin, much in the same vein as having sex before marriage. If my 13 year old son discovers he has desires to have sex with any female who will let him, should I refrain from telling him that is wrong and he shouldn't act on it for fear that I with damage him and hurt him? Those desires are natural and he was born with them. Should I therefore not tell him I think it would be a sin to act on it?

You guys continue to compare apples to oranges. Telling your son to not have premarital sex is a timing issue, nothing more. Telling your teenage son not to have sex with a male is an internal issue.

mrveggieman
05-02-2012, 03:13 PM
You guys continue to compare apples to oranges. Telling your son to not have premarital sex is a timing issue, nothing more. Telling your teenage son not to have sex with a male is an internal issue.


I will tell any of my kids not to have sex while they are underaged regardless of the gender they are having it with. Once they are grown if they chose to be in a gay relationship I will still love them even though I disagree with their lifestyle and will continue to pray for them.

AUTaxMan
05-02-2012, 03:22 PM
What about people who are genetically pre-disposed to alcoholism? Since it is just part of who they are, I guess we should just accept it and not try to do anything about it.

mrv - I agree with just about everything you've said in this thread.

mrveggieman
05-02-2012, 03:37 PM
What about people who are genetically pre-disposed to alcoholism? Since it is just part of who they are, I guess we should just accept it and not try to do anything about it.

mrv - I agree with just about everything you've said in this thread.


Thanks taxman. I was drinking my conservative juice this morning. :sign0020:

pghin08
05-02-2012, 03:41 PM
What about people who are genetically pre-disposed to alcoholism? Since it is just part of who they are, I guess we should just accept it and not try to do anything about it.

mrv - I agree with just about everything you've said in this thread.

Being an alcoholic is not the same as being gay. If you're an alcoholic, you're destroying your own body with a substance. Being gay isn't destructive at all.

ensbergcollector
05-02-2012, 03:53 PM
Being an alcoholic is not the same as being gay. If you're an alcoholic, you're destroying your own body with a substance. Being gay isn't destructive at all.

yeah, but that isn't the argument people make. People say "they were born that way" end of story. But anything else that people are born with a predisposition to is not looked at the same.

mrveggieman
05-02-2012, 03:58 PM
You know my bishop once said if you are gay that's fine but you can become born again and God can remove that spirit of homosexuality.

AUTaxMan
05-02-2012, 04:03 PM
Being an alcoholic is not the same as being gay. If you're an alcoholic, you're destroying your own body with a substance. Being gay isn't destructive at all.

What about people born with addictive personalities...gambling, eating, sex, porn, etc.? Should they just give into those temptations because they are inherently more prone to them than the average person?

shrewsbury
05-02-2012, 06:10 PM
Being gay isn't destructive at all.

i know a 17 year old gay youngman who has contracted aides from his sexual encounters, seems kind of destructive to me.

sure he could have got aides from heterosexual intercourse, but he didn't, he has only been with other males.

so being gay can be destructive just like any sexual relationship outside of marriage can.

actually that made me think of something.

do gays get a free ride on premarital sex because they can't get married? (well not in many places)

pghin08
05-02-2012, 06:11 PM
What about people born with addictive personalities...gambling, eating, sex, porn, etc.? Should they just give into those temptations because they are inherently more prone to them than the average person?

That's the thing. Gay people aren't "giving into the temptation". Just like I'm not "giving into the temptation" with how I feel about women. I was born feeling the way about women that I do. Is it so implausible that someone could be born feeling the same way about guys?

habsheaven
05-02-2012, 06:31 PM
pghin08: It really is a waste of time trying to reason with them. We have both been around long enough to know that people opposed to homosexuality will compare it with everything under the sun, none of which are comparable. The only relevant comparison is: If you were born heterosexual, why cannot someone else be born bi-sexual, or homosexual? I know they understand the concept.

duwal
05-02-2012, 06:37 PM
its threads like this one where I really can lose a lot of respect for members

pghin08
05-02-2012, 06:48 PM
Be nice guys. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Remember, a recognition of uncertainty is a cornerstone of reality.

shrewsbury
05-02-2012, 09:07 PM
i am not buying into the evil spirit of homosexuality, and i am christian and against gay marriage (don't attack)

mrveggieman
05-03-2012, 08:10 AM
That's the thing. Gay people aren't "giving into the temptation". Just like I'm not "giving into the temptation" with how I feel about women. I was born feeling the way about women that I do. Is it so implausible that someone could be born feeling the same way about guys?


It very well may be possible to be born with sinful inpulses to be homosexual. None of use know for a fact one way or the other. The real sin is acting on it. Again FTW the only the wrong with being gay is God dosen't like it. (That is still a big thing in most people's book). However there is nothing wrong in the secular world any more that it is wrong for a straight man to have sex with a woman he is not married to. So because there is nothing seculary wrong with being gay homosexuals should be entitled to all the legal rights, privileges and responsibilities that a straight person would. I however if I had a gay family member or close friend I would do everything in my power to pray the spirit of homosexuality off of them because according to my beliefs it is a demonic spirit. Again not saying that homosexuals are demonic but they do have spirits that are not of God.

habsheaven
05-03-2012, 08:29 AM
It very well may be possible to be born with sinful inpulses to be homosexual. None of use know for a fact one way or the other. The real sin is acting on it. Again FTW the only the wrong with being gay is God dosen't like it. (That is still a big thing in most people's book). However there is nothing wrong in the secular world any more that it is wrong for a straight man to have sex with a woman he is not married to. So because there is nothing seculary wrong with being gay homosexuals should be entitled to all the legal rights, privileges and responsibilities that a straight person would. I however if I had a gay family member or close friend I would do everything in my power to pray the spirit of homosexuality off of them because according to my beliefs it is a demonic spirit. Again not saying that homosexuals are demonic but they do have spirits that are not of God.

First bold:

IMO, they are not "sinful impulses". They are who the person IS. You may be able to separate the person from the impulse, but the person feeling an impulse that feels natural to them cannot separate the two.

Second bold:

As I stated with the slavery issue. God apparently (according to what some MEN wrote in a book) has no issues with other practices that society now deems wrong. Why would anyone trust what these MEN wrote about God's feelings on homosexuality?

And yes, I noticed that everyone bailed on the "slavery" point because there is no credible defense of it.

Edit:

Third bold: So God did not create EVERYTHING. There are 2 higher powers we are dealing with?

mrveggieman
05-03-2012, 08:45 AM
First bold:

IMO, they are not "sinful impulses". They are who the person IS. You may be able to separate the person from the impulse, but the person feeling an impulse that feels natural to them cannot separate the two.

Second bold:

As I stated with the slavery issue. God apparently (according to what some MEN wrote in a book) has no issues with other practices that society now deems wrong. Why would anyone trust what these MEN wrote about God's feelings on homosexuality?

And yes, I noticed that everyone bailed on the "slavery" point because there is no credible defense of it.

Edit:

Third bold: So God did not create EVERYTHING. There are 2 higher powers we are dealing with?


I am hetrosexual and I am also a married man. Yes I see women every day that I am sexually attracted to and every once in a while my mind wonders but I get it right real quick :thumb:. If I were to act on my impulses I would be guilty of sexual immorality (which again is not and should not be a crime in man's eyes), just like a who has an impulse to be with another man is guilty of sexual immorality once he lays up with the other man.

habsheaven
05-03-2012, 08:56 AM
I am hetrosexual and I am also a married man. Yes I see women every day that I am sexually attracted to and every once in a while my mind wonders but I get it right real quick :thumb:. If I were to act on my impulses I would be guilty of sexual immorality (which again is not and should not be a crime in man's eyes), just like a who has an impulse to be with another man is guilty of sexual immorality once he lays up with the other man.

This is not the same thing. Gay individuals experience the same impulses you do on a daily basis. They too, can stay committed if they have a partner. We are not talking about that. We are talking about expecting someone who is gay to stop acting on those impulses forever. Expecting them to abstain from loving who they want to love all because a book filled with outlandish claims and contradictions says so (See slavery).

mrveggieman
05-03-2012, 09:09 AM
This is not the same thing. Gay individuals experience the same impulses you do on a daily basis. They too, can stay committed if they have a partner. We are not talking about that. We are talking about expecting someone who is gay to stop acting on those impulses forever. Expecting them to abstain from loving who they want to love all because a book filled with outlandish claims and contradictions says so (See slavery).

If someone is gay and of age of consent they are free to do whatever they like as long as it is consentual. If I don't know them on a personal level it is not my business to tell another adult to do in the privacy and comfort of their own bedroom. I am in no position to stand in the seat of judgement of anyone. However I feel if they want to get right by God they need to leave the gay stuff alone.

Star_Cards
05-03-2012, 09:18 AM
i'll risk it...

christians view homosexuality as a sexual sin, much in the same vein as having sex before marriage. If my 13 year old son discovers he has desires to have sex with any female who will let him, should I refrain from telling him that is wrong and he shouldn't act on it for fear that I with damage him and hurt him? Those desires are natural and he was born with them. Should I therefore not tell him I think it would be a sin to act on it?

accepting that your son is gay is not the same thing as not teaching him to not run around and have unprotected sex or protected sex with everyone who lets him. Accepting that a child is gay doesn't mean you tell them that they should just go out and bang everyone that let's them. Being gay is so much more than just having sex with people... just like being straight is so much more than just the sexual aspect.

habsheaven
05-03-2012, 09:19 AM
If someone is gay and of age of consent they are free to do whatever they like as long as it is consentual. If I don't know them on a personal level it is not my business to tell another adult to do in the privacy and comfort of their own bedroom. I am in no position to stand in the seat of judgement of anyone. However I feel if they want to get right by God they need to leave the gay stuff alone.

Well I guess all I can say is: Who would want to "get right by God" when they know that God is WRONG.

Star_Cards
05-03-2012, 09:21 AM
What about people who are genetically pre-disposed to alcoholism? Since it is just part of who they are, I guess we should just accept it and not try to do anything about it.

mrv - I agree with just about everything you've said in this thread.

are you really comparing homosexuality to alcoholism? that is a completely ignorant view which surprises me coming from a person who posts rather intelligent posts. What about homosexuality as a whole that makes you think it is a destructive things like alcoholism? Sure people who are gay can be destructive but there are a lot of straight people that are destructive in a sexual sense.

Star_Cards
05-03-2012, 09:28 AM
i know a 17 year old gay youngman who has contracted aides from his sexual encounters, seems kind of destructive to me.

sure he could have got aides from heterosexual intercourse, but he didn't, he has only been with other males.

so being gay can be destructive just like any sexual relationship outside of marriage can.

actually that made me think of something.

do gays get a free ride on premarital sex because they can't get married? (well not in many places)

There are many straight people who have contracted AIDs from destructive sexual behavior. Easy E and Magic Johnson to name two. From my knowledge neither were or are gay and they obviously had very destructive straight sex to get AIDS.

I'm completely floored that there are people that honestly think homosexuality is destructive.

By the way. I have 3-4 really good gay friends and non of them have AIDS or HIV and lead perfectly nondestructive lives.

As for the premarital sex thing... What would they get a free ride from? Not everyone feels that premarital sex is wrong. I guess if you believed in not having premarital sex then no they wouldn't get a free ride... just like straight people who have premarital sex. I personally think waiting until your married to have sex is fairly archaic. And yes you can participate in sex while not being married and not be destructive or unsafe.

AUTaxMan
05-03-2012, 09:29 AM
are you really comparing homosexuality to alcoholism? that is a completely ignorant view which surprises me coming from a person who posts rather intelligent posts. What about homosexuality as a whole that makes you think it is a destructive things like alcoholism? Sure people who are gay can be destructive but there are a lot of straight people that are destructive in a sexual sense.

I am not saying that it is destructive. As Duane commented, the primary argument made is that it is an inherent trait, so nothing can be done about it. I was comparing it to the inherency of a tendency toward alcoholism (or any other personality predisposition), not to the destructive nature of alcoholism.

Star_Cards
05-03-2012, 09:30 AM
i am not buying into the evil spirit of homosexuality, and i am christian and against gay marriage (don't attack)

It also sounds like you think homosexuality is destructive and that's just not true.

mrveggieman
05-03-2012, 09:31 AM
God is WRONG.


Yes a lot of his so called followers are loons and are wrong as a soup sandwich but I must have missed the memo where God himself is wrong.

AUTaxMan
05-03-2012, 09:34 AM
First bold:

Second bold:

As I stated with the slavery issue. God apparently (according to what some MEN wrote in a book) has no issues with other practices that society now deems wrong. Why would anyone trust what these MEN wrote about God's feelings on homosexuality?

And yes, I noticed that everyone bailed on the "slavery" point because there is no credible defense of it.


Everybody didn't bail on that point. They ignored it because of how ridiculous it is. If you truly want to know God's position on slavery, you can look it up. (Hint - God is anti-slavery).

Star_Cards
05-03-2012, 09:37 AM
yeah, but that isn't the argument people make. People say "they were born that way" end of story. But anything else that people are born with a predisposition to is not looked at the same.

the point i think you are missing is that the "born that way" isn't supposed to be a free pass because what are they looking for a pass for for being gay? There's nothing wrong with it. While being born with predispositions to addiction is something that could possible be harmful to a person and others. Being gay at it's core has no more chance of being destructive than a straight person can be with their sexuality. Homosexuality doesn't hurt anyone like addition can and does.

Star_Cards
05-03-2012, 09:43 AM
I am hetrosexual and I am also a married man. Yes I see women every day that I am sexually attracted to and every once in a while my mind wonders but I get it right real quick :thumb:. If I were to act on my impulses I would be guilty of sexual immorality (which again is not and should not be a crime in man's eyes), just like a who has an impulse to be with another man is guilty of sexual immorality once he lays up with the other man.

This makes zero sense as comparison to homosexuality being wrong. Gay people have these impulses too, that happen naturally, I might add. And gay people can get their impulses in check as well. Single straight people can refrain from acting on every sexual impulse as well.

mrveggieman
05-03-2012, 09:47 AM
This makes zero sense as comparison to homosexuality being wrong. Gay people have these impulses too, that happen naturally, I might add. And gay people can get their impulses in check as well. Single straight people can refrain from acting on every sexual impulse as well.


It actually makes perfect sense. If a gay person wants to get right by God they need to pray to him that he will remove that spirit of homosexuality just like a straight person can go to go to remove the spirit of fornication. I understand that it will be a struggle just like it is a struggle for anyone who is battling a demon but all things are possible with God.

AUTaxMan
05-03-2012, 09:49 AM
Starcards and others, how do you account for people who were once homosexual and now are not?

Star_Cards
05-03-2012, 09:50 AM
I am not saying that it is destructive. As Duane commented, the primary argument made is that it is an inherent trait, so nothing can be done about it. I was comparing it to the inherency of a tendency toward alcoholism (or any other personality predisposition), not to the destructive nature of alcoholism.

Then why compare it to that of alcoholism, gambling and other negative, destructive thins. Why not compare it to the difference of being a leg man or a breast man or being ticklish or any other things that every person has due to just how their body is made up? Naturally you picked the negative things to compare it to.

It's so frustrating to me that people think sexuality is so black and white, while even in the realm of heterosexuality there are thousands of different things that straight people are attracted to or not simply based on their body makeup. Sexual attraction has so little to do with what an individual decides to be attracted to. People think they control it but you really don't.

AUTaxMan
05-03-2012, 09:52 AM
Then why compare it to that of alcoholism, gambling and other negative, destructive thins. Why not compare it to the difference of being a leg man or a breast man or being ticklish or any other things that every person has due to just how their body is made up? Naturally you picked the negative things to compare it to.

It's so frustrating to me that people think sexuality is so black and white, while even in the realm of heterosexuality there are thousands of different things that straight people are attracted to or not simply based on their body makeup. Sexual attraction has so little to do with what an individual decides to be attracted to. People think they control it but you really don't.

Like I asked above, how do you account for people who were once gay and now are not?

mrveggieman
05-03-2012, 09:54 AM
Then why compare it to that of alcoholism, gambling and other negative, destructive thins. Why not compare it to the difference of being a leg man or a breast man or being ticklish or any other things that every person has due to just how their body is made up? Naturally you picked the negative things to compare it to.

It's so frustrating to me that people think sexuality is so black and white, while even in the realm of heterosexuality there are thousands of different things that straight people are attracted to or not simply based on their body makeup. Sexual attraction has so little to do with what an individual decides to be attracted to. People think they control it but you really don't.


Some adults are attracted to kids but all of us would agree that an adult laying up with a child is not only sinful but down right repulsive. Should pedophiles get a pass as well?

AUTaxMan
05-03-2012, 09:57 AM
Some adults are attracted to kids but all of us would agree that an adult laying up with a child is not only sinful but down right repulsive. Should pedophiles get a pass as well?

A fair question, but one that will be ridiculed because of the repulsive connotations.

habsheaven
05-03-2012, 09:59 AM
Yes a lot of his so called followers are loons and are wrong as a soup sandwich but I must have missed the memo where God himself is wrong.

Slavery is wrong. God endorses slavery by dictating rules as to how it is to occur. Thereby, God is wrong.

habsheaven
05-03-2012, 10:02 AM
Everybody didn't bail on that point. They ignored it because of how ridiculous it is. If you truly want to know God's position on slavery, you can look it up. (Hint - God is anti-slavery).

Is this something new? I haven't known anyone on here to pass on commenting on ridiculous posts. The passage I posted CLEARY shows God's endorsement of slavery. Saying it is taken out of context doesn't cut it. I PROVED that. Then the silence started. I wonder why?

AUTaxMan
05-03-2012, 10:03 AM
Slavery is wrong. God endorses slavery by dictating rules as to how it is to occur. Thereby, God is wrong.

You are misguided on God's view on slavery, my friend, and you are being willfully ignorant of the facts. It's really not like you.

habsheaven
05-03-2012, 10:04 AM
Starcards and others, how do you account for people who were once homosexual and now are not?

They were born bi-sexual.

habsheaven
05-03-2012, 10:06 AM
Some adults are attracted to kids but all of us would agree that an adult laying up with a child is not only sinful but down right repulsive. Should pedophiles get a pass as well?

No. There actions cause HARM to someone. Try again.

habsheaven
05-03-2012, 10:09 AM
You are misguided on God's view on slavery, my friend, and you are being willfully ignorant of the facts. It's really not like you.

Here you go, I will try again. Please EXPLAIN this:

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

shrewsbury
05-03-2012, 10:09 AM
perhaps there are no true gays and they are all pansexual

AUTaxMan
05-03-2012, 10:09 AM
They were born bi-sexual.

That's not what they say.

habsheaven
05-03-2012, 10:11 AM
That's not what they say.

Really? What is it that they say?

Star_Cards
05-03-2012, 10:20 AM
Like I asked above, how do you account for people who were once gay and now are not?

well i think sexuality can be hard to classify and I think that's why some people have such a hard time with defining right and wrong. I think there are people who are attracted to one sex and then as they get older their preferences can change. I know that what I find sexually attractive has changed as I have gotten older so I don't think it's out of the question that a person could be completely straight at one time and then be completely gay after an extended period of time. If they switched repeatedly or quickly I'd say they were more in the bisexual realm than anything. That said, I don't think it's pertinent to place everyone in one box or the other when it comes to sexuality. It's much more complicated than most people want to think or admit to and that's mostly due to religious beliefs.

AUTaxMan
05-03-2012, 10:21 AM
Here you go, I will try again. Please EXPLAIN this:

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

This is from John Piper:

"There are Old Testament laws and principles that don't have validity today, and there is a redemptive-historical flow in the Bible that accounts for why some things were both commanded and permitted earlier that aren't now.

Part of this flow is that the people of God in the Old Testament were a political and ethnic reality with God as their King, and later with an earthly king. God ordained in those circumstances that his people immediately exercise some of his rights and his judgments upon the people.

Therefore you have the entire annihilation of the Canaanites by Joshua and his army with brutal, universal destruction. That's because God said in Deuteronomy, "I'm punishing these people for their sins. It's not your righteousness, O Israel, that is bringing this about. It's their sins that are bringing this about." So he was using his people as an instrument for his own judgment. In the context of a theocracy that was legitimate and right for God to do, even though the people themselves may have been sinful in the execution. And it was similar with things like slavery, God saying, in essence, "You're my people. Those people I have a right to judge. You may own them," and so on."

Star_Cards
05-03-2012, 10:28 AM
Some adults are attracted to kids but all of us would agree that an adult laying up with a child is not only sinful but down right repulsive. Should pedophiles get a pass as well?

yes there are adults that are attracted to children. however there is a difference between doing something sexually that is legal and doing something that isn't. With that it all comes down to the violation of the rights or the harm of another person (the child in this case) with your sexual desires. In that case it is greatly important to control your sexual urges if they are harmful to other people. Saying that homosexuals don't choose to be gay doesn't mean they can do things that are harmful to others just because they have the sexual urge to do so. When I speak of homosexuality not being destructive or wrong or evil I'm speaking of legal, consenting adult stuff. I'm not talking about things that are harmful to a second party that is being forced or coerced into performing a sexual act.

Star_Cards
05-03-2012, 10:32 AM
That's not what they say.

and they have every right to define their own sexuality if they want. and if they want to say they are now straight then that's fine. I have zero problem with that.

I would tend to define them as bi-sexual, but that definition isn't meant to limit or judge them at all.

Look at anne heiche. she was straight and had a relationship with Ellen and then after that I think she's been back to dating men. It is what it is and I'm not going to get hung up on "what" she is sexually defined as. Something about Ellen made her attracted to her and she may never be attracted to another women the rest of her life and that's perfectly fine. Nothing wrong with that at all.

habsheaven
05-03-2012, 10:36 AM
This is from John Piper:

"There are Old Testament laws and principles that don't have validity today, and there is a redemptive-historical flow in the Bible that accounts for why some things were both commanded and permitted earlier that aren't now.

Part of this flow is that the people of God in the Old Testament were a political and ethnic reality with God as their King, and later with an earthly king. God ordained in those circumstances that his people immediately exercise some of his rights and his judgments upon the people.

Therefore you have the entire annihilation of the Canaanites by Joshua and his army with brutal, universal destruction. That's because God said in Deuteronomy, "I'm punishing these people for their sins. It's not your righteousness, O Israel, that is bringing this about. It's their sins that are bringing this about." So he was using his people as an instrument for his own judgment. In the context of a theocracy that was legitimate and right for God to do, even though the people themselves may have been sinful in the execution. And it was similar with things like slavery, God saying, in essence, "You're my people. Those people I have a right to judge. You may own them," and so on."

Okay, so that I understand this. You are saying that the passage I posted is HOW I READ IT. God was condoning slavery. Slavery as we know it today. It is NOT out of context. It is NOT referring to EMPLOYEES.

Your explanation is that God, by using this "redemptive-historical flow" now condemns slavery as we know it. My question, do we have any passages condemning slavery (not in relation to Israelites)?

AUTaxMan
05-03-2012, 10:46 AM
Okay, so that I understand this. You are saying that the passage I posted is HOW I READ IT. God was condoning slavery. Slavery as we know it today. It is NOT out of context. It is NOT referring to EMPLOYEES.

Your explanation is that God, by using this "redemptive-historical flow" now condemns slavery as we know it. My question, do we have any passages condemning slavery (not in relation to Israelites)?

No, I don't believe there is an actual biblical reference along the lines of "There should be no slavery," if that is what you are asking. That does not mean that slavery is condoned by God.

habsheaven
05-03-2012, 10:50 AM
No, I don't believe there is an actual biblical reference along the lines of "There should be no slavery," if that is what you are asking. That does not mean that slavery is condoned by God.

The passage I quoted definitely condones it. Is that not God's word? If He changed His mind, where is it written? How do you know He changed His mind?

boba
05-03-2012, 11:41 AM
There are many straight people who have contracted AIDs from destructive sexual behavior. Easy E and Magic Johnson to name two. From my knowledge neither were or are gay and they obviously had very destructive straight sex to get AIDS.

I'm completely floored that there are people that honestly think homosexuality is destructive.

By the way. I have 3-4 really good gay friends and non of them have AIDS or HIV and lead perfectly nondestructive lives.

As for the premarital sex thing... What would they get a free ride from? Not everyone feels that premarital sex is wrong. I guess if you believed in not having premarital sex then no they wouldn't get a free ride... just like straight people who have premarital sex. I personally think waiting until your married to have sex is fairly archaic. And yes you can participate in sex while not being married and not be destructive or unsafe.

I haven't read the whole thread, only got to this point.
I'm confused what your point is here.

Are you honestly trying to prove that homosexuality isn't a destructive practice because people who aren't gay who have destructive sexual behavior sometimes get the same disease?

So only the strait people who get stds are destructive?

pghin08
05-03-2012, 11:50 AM
I haven't read the whole thread, only got to this point.
I'm confused what your point is here.

Are you honestly trying to prove that homosexuality isn't a destructive practice because people who aren't gay who have destructive sexual behavior sometimes get the same disease?

So only the strait people who get stds are destructive?

I think he's saying that STD's themselves are destructive, but that both straight and gay people can get them.

boba
05-03-2012, 11:53 AM
I think he's saying that STD's themselves are destructive, but that both straight and gay people can get them.

Yeah, but with strait people, it's destructive habits that cause them. Are you seeing the logical conclusion about homosexuality and stds?

Star_Cards
05-03-2012, 12:30 PM
I haven't read the whole thread, only got to this point.
I'm confused what your point is here.

Are you honestly trying to prove that homosexuality isn't a destructive practice because people who aren't gay who have destructive sexual behavior sometimes get the same disease?

So only the strait people who get stds are destructive?

That wasn't my point at all and not sure how you gathered that. I'm pointing out that people get aids by various reasons but typically it's due to having unsafe sex, which could be considered destructive. That happens with both homosexuals and heterosexuals. That was a reply to a post that brought up a gay man getting AIDS. If you read the post I quoted shewsbury (i think) made mention of a gay man getting AIDS and that he wouldn't have gotten aids if he was straight since he wouldn't have had sex with the specific man that gave him AIDS.. or something like that.

I wasn't the one that brought up AIDS into this discussion. I was saying that anyone (homosexual or heterosexual) can be sexually destructive and that destructiveness has nothing to do with who you are attracted to. It has everything to do with an individuals actions.

Star_Cards
05-03-2012, 12:32 PM
Yeah, but with strait people, it's destructive habits that cause them. Are you seeing the logical conclusion about homosexuality and stds?

and homosexuals get STDs because of destructive habits like not having safe sex... just like straight people.

I don't know what logical conclusion about homosexuality and STDs you speak of. Please explain further.

duwal
05-03-2012, 01:24 PM
Like I asked above, how do you account for people who were once gay and now are not?


easy, they're hiding it or living in fear from those that didn't want them to be gay or living in fear that because of their religious beliefs they'll go to hell for it

Star_Cards
05-03-2012, 01:27 PM
easy, they're hiding it or living in fear from those that didn't want them to be gay or living in fear that because of their religious beliefs they'll go to hell for it

that's always a possible reason. I still say that they are entitled to do that if they see fit. Although, it is sad that if they are saying that to hide their true self because of outside pressure.

boba
05-03-2012, 01:42 PM
That wasn't my point at all and not sure how you gathered that. I'm pointing out that people get aids by various reasons but typically it's due to having unsafe sex, which could be considered destructive. That happens with both homosexuals and heterosexuals. That was a reply to a post that brought up a gay man getting AIDS. If you read the post I quoted shewsbury (i think) made mention of a gay man getting AIDS and that he wouldn't have gotten aids if he was straight since he wouldn't have had sex with the specific man that gave him AIDS.. or something like that.

I wasn't the one that brought up AIDS into this discussion. I was saying that anyone (homosexual or heterosexual) can be sexually destructive and that destructiveness has nothing to do with who you are attracted to. It has everything to do with an individuals actions.

Oh, ok. I thought you were saying something else.

bigzig
05-03-2012, 07:33 PM
The passage I quoted definitely condones it. Is that not God's word? If He changed His mind, where is it written? How do you know He changed His mind?

To start I would like to say I have been lurking in this section for awhile now. Reading the threads has been very interesting. It's nice to see different view points without a bunch of name calling and arguing.

I was born and raised in the Christian church though I just in the past few years started "listening" and putting a little more thought into the stories I was told as a child. You will never hear me claim to be a biblical scholar, or anything of the sort. I can't quote a bunch of verses of the top of my head, but I understand the basic principles and am trying to learn more and more.

This is what my bible has to say about the verse you quoted.

"Why did God allow Israelites to purchase slaves? Under Hebrew laws, slaves were treated differently from slaves in other nations. They were seen as human beings with dignity, and not as animals. Hebrew slaves, for example, took part in the religious festivals and rested on the Sabbath. Nowhere does the bible condone slavery, but it recognizes its existence. God's law offered many guidelines for treating slaves properly."

Fast forward to Ephesians 6: 5-10 (written by Paul)

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect, and fear, and with sincerity of the heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free. And masters treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him."


The way I read this God is not condoning slavery at all. While technically they were called "slaves" God ordered their masters to treat them as humans, and not to take advantage of them. (more like an employee/employer relationship) obviously things were still a bit different back then, but God did command for "slaves" to be treated properly and for "slaves" to do their "job" to the fullest of their abilities without complaining.

Just because something happens in the bible doesn't mean God condoned it.

habsheaven
05-03-2012, 07:57 PM
To start I would like to say I have been lurking in this section for awhile now. Reading the threads has been very interesting. It's nice to see different view points without a bunch of name calling and arguing.

I was born and raised in the Christian church though I just in the past few years started "listening" and putting a little more thought into the stories I was told as a child. You will never hear me claim to be a biblical scholar, or anything of the sort. I can't quote a bunch of verses of the top of my head, but I understand the basic principles and am trying to learn more and more.

This is what my bible has to say about the verse you quoted.

"Why did God allow Israelites to purchase slaves? Under Hebrew laws, slaves were treated differently from slaves in other nations. They were seen as human beings with dignity, and not as animals. Hebrew slaves, for example, took part in the religious festivals and rested on the Sabbath. Nowhere does the bible condone slavery, but it recognizes its existence. God's law offered many guidelines for treating slaves properly."

Fast forward to Ephesians 6: 5-10 (written by Paul)

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect, and fear, and with sincerity of the heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not men, because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he does, whether he is slave or free. And masters treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him."


The way I read this God is not condoning slavery at all. While technically they were called "slaves" God ordered their masters to treat them as humans, and not to take advantage of them. (more like an employee/employer relationship) obviously things were still a bit different back then, but God did command for "slaves" to be treated properly and for "slaves" to do their "job" to the fullest of their abilities without complaining.

Just because something happens in the bible doesn't mean God condoned it.

I respectfully have to disagree. God "asking" masters to treat their slaves like humans is a far cry from the slaves being FREE to choose who they serve. Slavery is slavery. Frankly, it is a damn insult to liken slavery to "employment". You do not get bonus points for being a good master.

Lots of things were going on back then. God apparently had no problem condemning lots of activities that he opposed, homosexuality among them. He just as easily could have condemned slavery but He chose not to.

Silence on the issue would speak volumes. The fact God addresses the practice and does not condemn it, SCREAMS that He endorses it. It cannot be seen any other way, unless of course the reader chooses to close his eyes.

Edit: I guess that's why the final destination of the Underground Railway ended up in my backyard. Apparently, it upsets Maritimers like me more than our outspoken mrv. Go figure.

MasonRaymond0320
05-03-2012, 08:02 PM
I'm not gay..i didn't choose not to be..gay people don't just choose to be gay or not..its natural..1 in every 10 people are gay..probably someone you know is..i would stay loyal to that friend no matter what obviously..its none of my buisness...its no one elses problem or buisness..don't look at the negatives of (being gay)..its natural, unique..no one has the right to change who you are..there is nothing wrong with it imo..

bigzig
05-03-2012, 08:16 PM
I respectfully have to disagree. God "asking" masters to treat their slaves like humans is a far cry from the slaves being FREE to choose who they serve. Slavery is slavery. Frankly, it is a damn insult to liken slavery to "employment". You do not get bonus points for being a good master.

Lots of things were going on back then. God apparently had no problem condemning lots of activities that he opposed, homosexuality among them. He just as easily could have condemned slavery but He chose not to.

Silence on the issue would speak volumes. The fact God addresses the practice and does not condemn it, SCREAMS that He endorses it. It cannot be seen any other way, unless of course the reader chooses to close his eyes.

Edit: I guess that's why the final destination of the Underground Railway ended up in my backyard. Apparently, it upsets Maritimers like me more than our outspoken mrv. Go figure.

God wasn't "asking". He was saying "this is the way it is". Those who chose to to disobey Him or were not a part of the church were a lot different than those who followed God.

I don't expect to change your mind. From reading your posts it's quite obvious we see things a lot differently. I just felt I needed to give my point of view on the issue.

leopards40
05-03-2012, 08:26 PM
Are any other types of animals "gay"?

habsheaven
05-03-2012, 08:40 PM
God wasn't "asking". He was saying "this is the way it is". Those who chose to to disobey Him or were not a part of the church were a lot different than those who followed God.

I don't expect to change your mind. From reading your posts it's quite obvious we see things a lot differently. I just felt I needed to give my point of view on the issue.

I do not know what your POV is. How is this not the same as CONDONING the practice?

habsheaven
05-03-2012, 08:42 PM
Are any other types of animals "gay"?

Yes, gay, bi and everything in between.

bigzig
05-03-2012, 08:59 PM
I do not know what your POV is. How is this not the same as CONDONING the practice?


As I said in my first post, I'm not going to claim to be able to point out precise, in depth references to what I believe. Putting my thoughts into words has never been a strong point for me.

When you say God "condones" slavery, I hear you saying "God says it's ok to break out whips and chains to make my slave work all day for mere pennies if that."

God has never "condoned" that. God knew it existed, but He didn't condone it.

The bible used a lot of terms that have changed meanings a little over the years. The Ephesians verse I quoted wasn't saying it's ok to have slaves (whips and chain type). I believe it was more to refer to those that owed a debt to their "master". The slave should work hard to pay his debt. The "master" should treat the "slave" as a dignified human.

pspstatus
05-03-2012, 10:17 PM
I know this is isn't what the original topic was about but it has steered to slavery in the Bible so I thought I would present this. I copied from a website called religious tolerance.org and I think it speaks volumes.

Jesus is recorded as mentioning slaves in one of his parables. It is important to realize that the term "servant" or "maid" in the King James Version of the Bible refers to slaves, not employees like a butler, cook, or maid. Here, a slave which did not follow his owner's will would be beaten with many lashes of a whip. A slave who was unaware of his owner's will, but who did not behave properly, would also be beaten, but with fewer stripes.

This would have been a marvelous opportunity for Jesus to condemn the institution of slavery and its abuse of slaves. But he is not recorded of having bothered to taken it:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/topo/topbul1d.gifLuke 12:45-48: "The lord [owner] of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."



One of the favorite passages of slave-owning Christians was St. Paul's infamous instruction that slaves to obey their owners in the same way that they obey Christ:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/topo/topbul1d.gifEphesians 6:5-9: "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."

pspstatus
05-03-2012, 10:26 PM
Are any other types of animals "gay"?


There are hundreds of animal species who have had documented homosexual tendencies including my dog. Here's an interesting Nat. Geo. article about it. There's lots more info on the interwebs.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal_2.html

habsheaven
05-03-2012, 10:32 PM
As I said in my first post, I'm not going to claim to be able to point out precise, in depth references to what I believe. Putting my thoughts into words has never been a strong point for me.

When you say God "condones" slavery, I hear you saying "God says it's ok to break out whips and chains to make my slave work all day for mere pennies if that."

God has never "condoned" that. God knew it existed, but He didn't condone it.

The bible used a lot of terms that have changed meanings a little over the years. The Ephesians verse I quoted wasn't saying it's ok to have slaves (whips and chain type). I believe it was more to refer to those that owed a debt to their "master". The slave should work hard to pay his debt. The "master" should treat the "slave" as a dignified human.

God's acceptance of it and attempt to put limitations on it is a clear approval of it. He is God, if He didn't approve, He would have said so.

There are different passages that talk about "those that owed a debt to their master", namely Israelites. The passage I quoted is clearly not talking about that "type" of slave.

shrewsbury
05-03-2012, 11:58 PM
pspstatus,

the first thing i will say is think about how these books came about, who controlled them, transcribed them, and translated them. you will not find any original copies of anything in the new testament nor even the gospels outside the new testament.

if it is possible that the works of josephus could be altered to favor and prove christianity, could it not also be true for the bible, you have to keep in mind, it was mainly christian monks who transcribed all these works. it was all done by hand and there are many facts to show they did do some changing around in some works of antiquity. it would only take a small amoun tof change to make a big difference.

such as this;


Ephesians 6:5-9: "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."

to this


Ephesians 6:5-9: "Servants, be obedient to your Master according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same: knowing that your Master also is in heaven."

with seven less words we see something much different



so with this in mind;

who would benefit from slaves who obeyed their owners, and obeyed them without question because God said so?

who would benefit from the oppression of women?

who would benefit from money being given for sins and for gods work?

who would benefit from putting the fear of god and hell into mass amounts of people?

surely not jesus

pspstatus
05-04-2012, 12:25 AM
pspstatus,

the first thing i will say is think about how these books came about, who controlled them, transcribed them, and translated them. you will not find any original copies of anything in the new testament nor even the gospels outside the new testament.

if it is possible that the works of josephus could be altered to favor and prove christianity, could it not also be true for the bible, you have to keep in mind, it was mainly christian monks who transcribed all these works. it was all done by hand and there are many facts to show they did do some changing around in some works of antiquity. it would only take a small amoun tof change to make a big difference.

such as this;



to this



with seven less words we see something much different



so with this in mind;

who would benefit from slaves who obeyed their owners, and obeyed them without question because God said so?

who would benefit from the oppression of women?

who would benefit from money being given for sins and for gods work?

who would benefit from putting the fear of god and hell into mass amounts of people?

surely not jesus


Definitely hear and agree with what you're saying. When I'm debating with someone who believes that the Bible is truly the word of God I sometimes have to operate on that plane when I make direct references to the book. In order to show the fallibility of the book and certain ideas it puts forth I have to make an argument within the bounds of how the other person percieves the text.

Star_Cards
05-04-2012, 08:38 AM
pspstatus,

the first thing i will say is think about how these books came about, who controlled them, transcribed them, and translated them. you will not find any original copies of anything in the new testament nor even the gospels outside the new testament.

if it is possible that the works of josephus could be altered to favor and prove christianity, could it not also be true for the bible, you have to keep in mind, it was mainly christian monks who transcribed all these works. it was all done by hand and there are many facts to show they did do some changing around in some works of antiquity. it would only take a small amoun tof change to make a big difference.

such as this;



to this



with seven less words we see something much different



so with this in mind;

who would benefit from slaves who obeyed their owners, and obeyed them without question because God said so?

who would benefit from the oppression of women?

who would benefit from money being given for sins and for gods work?

who would benefit from putting the fear of god and hell into mass amounts of people?

surely not jesus

From what I read from the posted biblical passages I read it as god was not against slavery, but shews has a great point. I personally believe that one of the major reasons why organized religion came about or at least what it morphed into was a tool to help control the masses. Telling people that a higher power doesn't want them doing certain things is a great way to control. Since I have that theory, it's easily argued to me that any translations could be compromised to help support the translators motives or person wants and beliefs.

shrewsbury
05-04-2012, 12:36 PM
the tricky part for me is i am a christian, so how to i say this has been changed and this is legit?

i do by my common sense and my understanding of jesus, but alot of christians see this as a bad thing, like i think i have some secret understanding or think that i think i know more.

i believe this goes back to looking inward rather than outward and a lot of private debate with myself.

boba
05-04-2012, 10:41 PM
the tricky part for me is i am a christian, so how to i say this has been changed and this is legit?

i do by my common sense and my understanding of jesus, but alot of christians see this as a bad thing, like i think i have some secret understanding or think that i think i know more.

i believe this goes back to looking inward rather than outward and a lot of private debate with myself.

Doesn't really have anything to do with this thread, but I just want to see what your answer is to something.

Why would God allow man to change his word? If he had the power to create everything we know, why would he allow this?

I mean no offense, just want to know your answer.

habsheaven
05-04-2012, 11:43 PM
Doesn't really have anything to do with this thread, but I just want to see what your answer is to something.

Why would God allow man to change his word? If he had the power to create everything we know, why would he allow this?

I mean no offense, just want to know your answer.

That's a good question. Perhaps He doesn't have total control over man because He gave man free will. I think a better question would be; why did God need a mulligan? Is He not perfect? Why did He have to hit the reset button?

shrewsbury
05-05-2012, 11:44 AM
both of your questions can be answered that god gave us free will. we screwed it all up so we were given another chance.

his chosen people didn't make good choices so he gave them another chance and applied that to all of us.

and no offense taken, each to his own, i will not try to convince you my way is right, but if intrested in my way, i will share it.

boba
05-05-2012, 12:23 PM
both of your questions can be answered that god gave us free will. we screwed it all up so we were given another chance.

his chosen people didn't make good choices so he gave them another chance and applied that to all of us.

and no offense taken, each to his own, i will not try to convince you my way is right, but if intrested in my way, i will share it.

I agree with you here, but why would he allow people to alter his word that is the only way for us to know how to obtain salvation?

sublime420
05-05-2012, 12:48 PM
Anybody who accepts slavery and/or condemns gay people because of the bible is an ignorant moron.

NyFanCam01
05-05-2012, 12:51 PM
I have a girlfriend who I adore.. with that said, Everyone has a choice and I see nothing wrong with it at all.

People who have such a big problem with gay people are VERY annoying. Shut up and get over it. Worry about YOUR life.

habsheaven
05-05-2012, 05:03 PM
Anybody who accepts slavery and/or condemns gay people because of the bible is an ignorant moron.

I wouldn't be that harsh. I just consider them misguided. Whenever I get to the point where I need a book to tell me the difference between right and wrong just lock me up.

sublime420
05-05-2012, 05:55 PM
That's exactly what I'm saying. Logic overcomes anything written in a book. What also annoys me is how people will quote all the good bible verses, but when there's bad stuff, they wipe it off like it's nothing, or simply say "oh i don't believe in that part". Isn't the whole thing about the bible that your supposed to believe it all??

shrewsbury
05-05-2012, 06:43 PM
Isn't the whole thing about the bible that your supposed to believe it all??

not at all

sublime420
05-05-2012, 06:59 PM
Sorry i just kind of find it odd to pick and choose....

bigzig
05-06-2012, 12:32 PM
Sorry i just kind of find it odd to pick and choose....

You're not suppose to pick and choose. The bible wasn't written to pick which parts you want to believe and ignore the rest.

sublime420
05-06-2012, 01:02 PM
My point exactly....

hawk2618
05-06-2012, 02:01 PM
Beating your kid straight will have no effect, to me anyway.My question is"Where were you when he or she chose this path"? I get very annoyed when I hear people and even doctors for this matter....stating that everyone is born this way through genetics.That is the furthest from the truth.Being gay is a choice as is being an alchoholic.I've always lived by this."You are who you hang around with"Everyone is born into this world pretty much pure(not counting sin)My father was an alcoholic and yet neither of his sons were??? Is this simply just a special case??? I doubt it! ~~Dave C.

shrewsbury
05-06-2012, 03:10 PM
Originally Posted by sublime420
Sorry i just kind of find it odd to pick and choose....
You're not suppose to pick and choose. The bible wasn't written to pick which parts you want to believe and ignore the rest.

did you not read any of the previous posts?

so the berring straight migration, quadrupedal to bipedal, extinction of the dinosaurs, cannot be continuosly understood and theories changed and argued?

where in the teachings of jesus does he say you can only understand him by the new testament? or does he even mention a new testament coming?

who gave the authority that the new testament is the flawless word of god?

first you must create your hypothesis (which can take decades), then collect data and evidence to back it up.

pick and choose, or to ignore, is no different than believeing everything you read without knowing its source, political surrounding, circumstances, or reason for it being written.

habsheaven
05-06-2012, 03:32 PM
Beating your kid straight will have no effect, to me anyway.My question is"Where were you when he or she chose this path"? I get very annoyed when I hear people and even doctors for this matter....stating that everyone is born this way through genetics.That is the furthest from the truth.Being gay is a choice as is being an alchoholic.I've always lived by this."You are who you hang around with"Everyone is born into this world pretty much pure(not counting sin)My father was an alcoholic and yet neither of his sons were??? Is this simply just a special case??? I doubt it! ~~Dave C.

I get annoyed when people make erroneous statements such as ALL of yours and then claim it annoys them. Are you telling us that you CHOSE to be straight? When exactly did you make that choice? Again, people are comparing apples to oranges.

bigzig
05-06-2012, 03:46 PM
did you not read any of the previous posts?

so the berring straight migration, quadrupedal to bipedal, extinction of the dinosaurs, cannot be continuosly understood and theories changed and argued?

where in the teachings of jesus does he say you can only understand him by the new testament? or does he even mention a new testament coming?

who gave the authority that the new testament is the flawless word of god?

first you must create your hypothesis (which can take decades), then collect data and evidence to back it up.

pick and choose, or to ignore, is no different than believeing everything you read without knowing its source, political surrounding, circumstances, or reason for it being written.

I guess I missed something here. Who said the New Testament was the only part that mattered?

What does any of that have to do with believing the entire bible, not just what you want to hear?

hawk2618
05-06-2012, 04:31 PM
So are you saying that everything anyone does is not a choice???? If you're brought up properly,choices are very easy.I would have to say parent upbringing leads children to most decisions they make in life.If a child has a broken family and has no direction in which to follow,then they are more likely to make poor decisions from lack of Family leadership! ~~Dave C.

habsheaven
05-06-2012, 07:14 PM
So are you saying that everything anyone does is not a choice???? If you're brought up properly,choices are very easy.I would have to say parent upbringing leads children to most decisions they make in life.If a child has a broken family and has no direction in which to follow,then they are more likely to make poor decisions from lack of Family leadership! ~~Dave C.

Who said anything about EVERYTHING anyone does? I was 5 or 6 when I had my first crush on a neighborhood girl. Every year in elementary school there was another cute girl that I liked. Long before I knew about sex, I knew what I liked. I never once CHOSE to like new cute girl in my class. It was a natural feeling. Not unlike the same natural feeling that gay children have while growing up. Again I ask, when did YOU first CHOOSE your sexual orientation?

And FWIW, both of my daughters were "brought up properly".

hawk2618
05-06-2012, 07:52 PM
I chose my sexual orientation by the path my parents led me.If you come from a family where both parents are constantly there,you are led by example.Its not a hard choice to know whats right or wrong.However...if someone is brought up by 2 parents (both male or both female) wouldn't that leave doubt in your mind what is right and wrong or indifferent and make you make a choice?? It would me.

sublime420
05-06-2012, 09:02 PM
So your saying that every lesbian couple will have a lesbian child? or gay couple have a gay child? That is simply false.....

hawk2618
05-06-2012, 09:24 PM
I didn't say every same sex parents children would ALL grow up like that.In fact,I didn't say any of them would.I simply stated it would put doubts in their minds of what is truly right and wrong.Personally,I wouldn't want to be brought up that way.
It has to very tough on these children with questions being asked and staring from afar.

sublime420
05-06-2012, 09:45 PM
DUDE, THAT'S THE THING. The bible just makes it harder for these kids to be raised... Who the hell are you to say what is "truly" right or wrong? If the kid is straight/gay/lesbian/bi why do you even care in the first place? It all goes back to this irrational thing called religion. Jesus "said" that gay people are wrong 2000 years ago in a novel.... So now you resent people for something that shows no indication of their true character? Simply for the fact they're gay???

AUTaxMan
05-06-2012, 09:52 PM
So now you resent people for something that shows no indication of their true character? Simply for the fact they're gay???

Who resents whom?

sublime420
05-06-2012, 09:54 PM
Christians - Gays

hawk2618
05-06-2012, 09:56 PM
Why do you feel the need to defend? No where in my posts do I say I "resent" them.
My only point was I personally believed it was a choice and people arent born with it.
I will always believe that no matter what I read and whoever I come across when this topic arises.Thats my opinion. I never resent "choices" people take in life.
~~Dave C.

sublime420
05-06-2012, 10:07 PM
Like habsheaven previously mentioned, it's not a person's choice.....

Agree to disagree.....

habsheaven
05-06-2012, 10:16 PM
I chose my sexual orientation by the path my parents led me.If you come from a family where both parents are constantly there,you are led by example.Its not a hard choice to know whats right or wrong.However...if someone is brought up by 2 parents (both male or both female) wouldn't that leave doubt in your mind what is right and wrong or indifferent and make you make a choice?? It would me.

Keep telling yourself that. As I stated earlier, I know what's right and what's wrong. I was lucky enough to be born to a pair of very enlightened, tolerant, non-judgemental parents. Apparently based on your comments here, knowing right from wrong is harder than it looks.

habsheaven
05-06-2012, 10:17 PM
Why do you feel the need to defend? No where in my posts do I say I "resent" them.
My only point was I personally believed it was a choice and people arent born with it.
I will always believe that no matter what I read and whoever I come across when this topic arises.Thats my opinion. I never resent "choices" people take in life.
~~Dave C.

Sounds like a good christian to me.

hawk2618
05-06-2012, 10:52 PM
Thats why this is an open thread.That is simply my opinion and belief.

Star_Cards
05-06-2012, 11:26 PM
Beating your kid straight will have no effect, to me anyway.My question is"Where were you when he or she chose this path"? I get very annoyed when I hear people and even doctors for this matter....stating that everyone is born this way through genetics.That is the furthest from the truth.Being gay is a choice as is being an alchoholic.I've always lived by this."You are who you hang around with"Everyone is born into this world pretty much pure(not counting sin)My father was an alcoholic and yet neither of his sons were??? Is this simply just a special case??? I doubt it! ~~Dave C.

Asked it before and will ask it again. When did you decide to be attracted to girls?

oh... and let's say it's not something you are born with or just occurs do to your genetic make up, what makes it wrong. Say a person 100% makes a choice to be gay... why can't be make that choice just as you clam to make the choice to be straight. Does the origin of sexuality have any bearing on that person still having rights to be gay just as the straight people have? Even if homosexuality was a completely voluntary choice (which I do not believe) there's nothing wrong with it.

Star_Cards
05-06-2012, 11:30 PM
So are you saying that everything anyone does is not a choice???? If you're brought up properly,choices are very easy.I would have to say parent upbringing leads children to most decisions they make in life.If a child has a broken family and has no direction in which to follow,then they are more likely to make poor decisions from lack of Family leadership! ~~Dave C.

I find it rather uninformed to think that what you consider proper upbringing will keep a person from being a homosexual. There are plenty of examples of children being raised in a traditional household and even a traditional religion household and still be gay. I still don't see how a person being gay is classified as a poor decision.

pspstatus
05-07-2012, 12:00 AM
So are you saying that everything anyone does is not a choice???? If you're brought up properly,choices are very easy.I would have to say parent upbringing leads children to most decisions they make in life.If a child has a broken family and has no direction in which to follow,then they are more likely to make poor decisions from lack of Family leadership! ~~Dave C.


Have you ever known a gay young person?

hawk2618
05-07-2012, 12:09 AM
Have you ever known a gay young person?

You hit the nail right on the head.To answer your question ...NO...I never met a young gay person.That supports my (it being a choice) more.
Thank -you ~~Dave C.

pspstatus
05-07-2012, 12:19 AM
You hit the nail right on the head.To answer your question ...NO...I never met a young gay person.That supports my (it being a choice) more.
Thank -you ~~Dave C.


Maybe if you HAD you would know that it's not a choice.

stlcardinalsfan
05-07-2012, 12:32 AM
being as my father was a baptist pastor for several years,it does say in the bible that homosexuality is wrong and is sin.
it also says all sin is sin in gods eyes.
therefore over eating and gay is baiscly the same to god.

my opinion

i dont care what u are as long as you dont throw it in my face. in school i hung out witht he goths,nerds and gays (i wasnt popular and neither were they) and everyone in the group that was gay was treated no differently. yes some were more flamboyant that others but they never tried to "rape" you with their gayness.

alot of todays christain society is ignorant and have never been around gay,and only know what it says in the bible. thay have this fear of being raped by gay people or somthing. i used to be one until i got to know a couple of people who were gay (when i switched schools in the 10th grade)

i however am straight but can tolerate people who are gay.


its not homophobia, its just ignorance.

the whole being gay is a choice/being born is quit baffleing

i have a cousin who the family always knew was a bit different and a bit girly. he is now 18 and came otu and said he was bi (same thing as gay to me). so him being born gay kinda makes sense but then again it is some peopels choice.

why cant theyre be both,people who choose and are born?

hawk2618
05-07-2012, 12:40 AM
Heres 2 examples where its a choice..Meredith Baxter....who was born in 1947.In 2002 she came out saying she was a lesbian,not bisexual,a lesbian.This is a woman who has 5 children.Here is a quote she said when she came out...." Baxter said she first realized she was a lesbian when she began her first same-sex relationship in 2002."Doesn't look like she was born with it..does it??? If she was born with it..that would mean she was hiding for 55 years....OK!!! next
George Takei...He came out in 2005 saying he was gay.He had been in a relationship since 1987.He was born in 1937 so that would mean he was in hiding for 50 years.
I find it ridiculous for any person to hold in a preference of sexual partners over that period of time if it wasn't an impluse at that particular time!!! ~~Dave C.

stlcardinalsfan
05-07-2012, 12:57 AM
Heres 2 examples where its a choice..Meredith Baxter....who was born in 1947.In 2002 she came out saying she was a lesbian,not bisexual,a lesbian.This is a woman who has 5 children.Here is a quote she said when she came out...." Baxter said she first realized she was a lesbian when she began her first same-sex relationship in 2002."Doesn't look like she was born with it..does it??? If she was born with it..that would mean she was hiding for 55 years....OK!!! next
George Takei...He came out in 2005 saying he was gay.He had been in a relationship since 1987.He was born in 1937 so that would mean he was in hiding for 50 years.
I find it ridiculous for any person to hold in a preference of sexual partners over that period of time if it wasn't an impluse at that particular time!!! ~~Dave C.


my aunt was married twice and came out a year after she divorced her 2cnd husband (was a creep tho,so she had a good reason to divorce him) her first husband turned out to be gay and died of aids in the early 90's (she dosnt have it).
shes 45,but i treat/see her no differently than how i did before......she used to be one of those bible thumpers and used to tell me i was going to hell for watching wrestling.............oh how the tables have turned lol

habsheaven
05-07-2012, 07:53 AM
hawk2618, just because an adult decides to live a gay lifestyle after they have lived a straight lifestyle has no bearing on whether or not it was a choice or they were born that way. They very well could have been born bisexual and chose the path with the least resistance. For you to use these examples to bolster your claim, you have to acknowledge the examples of young people who know they are gay from early on.

Edit: I take that ALL back. I get what you are saying now. YOU realized that you were attracted to men and women and CHOSE to supress those feelings for the same sex because your parents raised you right. Makes perfect sense now.

shrewsbury
05-07-2012, 08:40 AM
i had this discussion with 2 lesbian couples(two had been married to a man in the past, one had a grown child) when we all spent the weekend in wine country. one was adamant it was a choice, another was baffled when this was said and her opinion was it was not a choice, and why anyone would choose such a lifestyle. (she wasn't gay until after college, when she met her current partner.)

i asked her what she meant by who would choose the lifestyle of as lesbian. she was happy, has a great partner, has a 6 figure job, she is in great shape, and we were all having fun.

the topic died and wasn't discussed again.

Star_Cards
05-07-2012, 08:51 AM
You hit the nail right on the head.To answer your question ...NO...I never met a young gay person.That supports my (it being a choice) more.
Thank -you ~~Dave C.

I have some question about the question you were asked as well as some about your answer.

I'd like for the term "young" to be defined. Are we talking kids who are preteens or kids in the 16 years of age and up that have actually gone through puberty and have started developing more profound sexual desires? For me that definition is pretty important.

As far as meeting or knowing a young gay person... they do exist. Not meeting one doesn't mean they are not in existence. Sexuality is something that develops throughout your life. It's an ongoing thing and people all develop at different rates. The age at which one understands or realizes they are gay has no bearing on if it is a choice or not.

Star_Cards
05-07-2012, 09:09 AM
Heres 2 examples where its a choice..Meredith Baxter....who was born in 1947.In 2002 she came out saying she was a lesbian,not bisexual,a lesbian.This is a woman who has 5 children.Here is a quote she said when she came out...." Baxter said she first realized she was a lesbian when she began her first same-sex relationship in 2002."Doesn't look like she was born with it..does it??? If she was born with it..that would mean she was hiding for 55 years....OK!!! next
George Takei...He came out in 2005 saying he was gay.He had been in a relationship since 1987.He was born in 1937 so that would mean he was in hiding for 50 years.
I find it ridiculous for any person to hold in a preference of sexual partners over that period of time if it wasn't an impluse at that particular time!!! ~~Dave C.

You are missing the point. It's not about being born gay or straight and staying on that path. It's about the fact that sexuality is a ever changing entity and some people can drastically move along the sexual spectrum throughout their life. Those two are an example of a dynamic shift. The bottom line is they still didn't choose to have an attraction to what they did at whatever time on their life.

and not sure about Takei, but some people do hide their homosexuality. Some until they can get a handle on it and some until the day they die. I believe a lot of that has to do with how they can handle how society and the people in their lives will accept it or not. I think if the people who are so hung up on calling it a bad or unnatural thing would become more accepting we would have a lot more people not being afraid to express their sexuality more freely... and no I'm not talking about being in your face about it.

Star_Cards
05-07-2012, 09:14 AM
i had this discussion with 2 lesbian couples(two had been married to a man in the past, one had a grown child) when we all spent the weekend in wine country. one was adamant it was a choice, another was baffled when this was said and her opinion was it was not a choice, and why anyone would choose such a lifestyle. (she wasn't gay until after college, when she met her current partner.)

i asked her what she meant by who would choose the lifestyle of as lesbian. she was happy, has a great partner, has a 6 figure job, she is in great shape, and we were all having fun.

the topic died and wasn't discussed again.

would have liked to hear her answer. I'd assume that maybe she was speaking about the stress and anxiety caused since it's not the typical attraction set that the average person has. All speculation, but given the attitudes towards gays by some I can see where it would be much easier to just be straight rather than having to deal with that... even if you had come through all of that and were happily out. Puberty is confusing enough for straight kids. I can't imagine how difficult it can be for a person going through it and having homosexual feelings as well, considering the judgement that is out there about it all.

hawk2618
05-07-2012, 09:23 AM
hawk2618, just because an adult decides to live a gay lifestyle after they have lived a straight lifestyle has no bearing on whether or not it was a choice or they were born that way. They very well could have been born bisexual and chose the path with the least resistance. For you to use these examples to bolster your claim, you have to acknowledge the examples of young people who know they are gay from early on.

Edit: I take that ALL back. I get what you are saying now. YOU realized that you were attracted to men and women and CHOSE to supress those feelings for the same sex because your parents raised you right. Makes perfect sense now.

Wait??....What??? Now you're telling me there's a bisexual gene that determines that they like both men and women?? A gay gene to this day has yet to be found,nevrmind a bisexual gene.Here's a question I would love to hear an answer to.In the world today....gays make up 0.425 of the population.Thats less than half of 1%.If people are born with being gay/lesbian.Wouldn't you think that % would be a lot higher?? The math just doesn't add up to being born with it.Also...did you not read the quote that Meredith Baxter said??? She chose it..she wasn't born that way.

shrewsbury
05-07-2012, 09:30 AM
would have liked to hear her answer.

the one couple is our best friends, the other is slowing becoming good friends, we were out with them the other night, but topic did not come up.

i am sure it will again (will make sure) we all are going camping for memorial day weekend, it will be the perfect topic for a campfire discussion!!!

habsheaven
05-07-2012, 09:37 AM
Wait??....What??? Now you're telling me there's a bisexual gene that determines that they like both men and women?? A gay gene to this day has yet to be found,nevrmind a bisexual gene.Here's a question I would love to hear an answer to.In the world today....gays make up 0.425 of the population.Thats less than half of 1%.If people are born with being gay/lesbian.Wouldn't you think that % would be a lot higher?? The math just doesn't add up to being born with it.Also...did you not read the quote that Meredith Baxter said??? She chose it..she wasn't born that way.

Why is it beyond your imagination to think that people can be born with different sexual preferences? Percentages mean absolutely nothing, not sure why you include them in any argument. As for Baxter, just like YOU, (You have a hard time accepting the fact you may have been born hetrosexual.) she may also reject the fact she was born bisexual.

According to YOU. We are ALL born with the ability to CHOOSE which sex we are attracted to. So answer this, were you attracted to the same sex up until the point YOU CHOSE to like the opposite sex only?

hawk2618
05-07-2012, 09:58 AM
A choice is not made as soon as you are conceived.As you grow...depending on the direction you are led in life.The life you lead is set by example by your parents/family/friends.If you are exposed to gay tendencies at a young age,chances are very high you will be gay.Let me ask you this ....if a child is born to a husband/wife and they choose not to keep the child,for whatever reasons there may be.Then the child is put up for adoption and either 2 male partners or 2 female partners adopt this child.Lets say....the child grows up to be gay.Will they say they were born this way or would they say his or her parents led them in the direction they chose??

Star_Cards
05-07-2012, 10:35 AM
A choice is not made as soon as you are conceived.As you grow...depending on the direction you are led in life.The life you lead is set by example by your parents/family/friends.If you are exposed to gay tendencies at a young age,chances are very high you will be gay.Let me ask you this ....if a child is born to a husband/wife and they choose not to keep the child,for whatever reasons there may be.Then the child is put up for adoption and either 2 male partners or 2 female partners adopt this child.Lets say....the child grows up to be gay.Will they say they were born this way or would they say his or her parents led them in the direction they chose??

I disagree. One's upbringing has nothing to do with their sexuality. It does have to do with the choices you make when involving how you use it. Saying that it is very high that you will be gay if you are exposed to gay tendencies is completely absurd. If this is how people become gay, then why are there even gay people? All children come from heterosexual parents and would have been around these heterosexual tendencies that you speak of. If that's the case where did homosexuals pop up?

In your scenario, I'd still say the child had an internal preference to be gay. It was not because of the two gay parents. Homosexuals are a very small minority. I'd bet that most children that have been brought up by two gay parents are mostly straight.

shrewsbury
05-07-2012, 10:38 AM
I'd bet that most children that have been brought up by two gay parents are mostly straight.

i only personally know one, and she is straight

Star_Cards
05-07-2012, 10:45 AM
Wait??....What??? Now you're telling me there's a bisexual gene that determines that they like both men and women?? A gay gene to this day has yet to be found,nevrmind a bisexual gene.Here's a question I would love to hear an answer to.In the world today....gays make up 0.425 of the population.Thats less than half of 1%.If people are born with being gay/lesbian.Wouldn't you think that % would be a lot higher?? The math just doesn't add up to being born with it.Also...did you not read the quote that Meredith Baxter said??? She chose it..she wasn't born that way.

I'm not sure why you are hung up on a "gene". I don't think it has to be a gene necessarily. I just think it's how your body is wired. Kind of like how you don't choose what foods taste good to you. You just like them or not and sometimes your tests evolve or change as you get older. It seems a bit more involved to me than taste but along the same lines. There's no taste bud gene that I know of, but it's a type of preference that's really not controllable.

I don't think the low percentages of gays means that you can then prove that it is a choice.

habsheaven
05-07-2012, 10:49 AM
A choice is not made as soon as you are conceived.As you grow...depending on the direction you are led in life.The life you lead is set by example by your parents/family/friends.If you are exposed to gay tendencies at a young age,chances are very high you will be gay.Let me ask you this ....if a child is born to a husband/wife and they choose not to keep the child,for whatever reasons there may be.Then the child is put up for adoption and either 2 male partners or 2 female partners adopt this child.Lets say....the child grows up to be gay.Will they say they were born this way or would they say his or her parents led them in the direction they chose??

How in the world would I know the answer to this question? I know you think that you know the answer. Unfortunately, I do not. I will give you, what I think, are the possible responses.

1) They may believe in their hearts that they always felt gay. (Born this way.)

2) They may believe that their parents contributed to the development of their sexual identity. (whether they did or not -similar to your belief)

3) They may believe either (1) or (2) and in actuality were born bi-sexual.

4) They may believe they are gay, and find out after they have fully matured that they are actually attracted to the opposite sex moreso than the same sex.

My personal belief, which I base on observations and conversations I have had lead me to believe that people can be born attracted to the same sex, the opposite sex, both sexes and even NEITHER sex. Depending on the level of their preferred attraction, environmental influences can affect some people. At the end of the day, it is a complicated issue full of grey areas. To claim that it is a CHOICE is too simplistic for me. Everything I have seen in life tells me otherwise.

shrewsbury
05-07-2012, 10:59 AM
this may sound mean, but trying to get a point acrossed.

if such a small percentile is homosexual, and if they are born this way, would it not be considered a abnormality? would it be a genetic mishap? if so should we be looking for a cure?

this is why i think it makes more sense to be a choice, like the new term of pansexual, rather than a disability.

hawk2618
05-07-2012, 11:04 AM
The word preference you use quite often in your post means "choice".I honestly believe gays/lesbians saying "I was born that way" is just an excuse to say "its ok because I had no control over it"Also..I'm not sure why you insist saying "genes" have nothing to do with it.Every human born is born with both male/female tendencies.At some time in a persons life,how they live it out.A choice in what path they take is chosen.I have yet to hear or see 1 gay person state "I was born this way"Also...I find it quite amusing how many on this thread and most other politcal/religion threads exclusevely show beliefs solely on proof by science.Science has yet to find a supposedly gay gene to claim a human is born this way.

shrewsbury
05-07-2012, 11:06 AM
good post. actually we all start as females at conception.

Star_Cards
05-07-2012, 11:16 AM
this may sound mean, but trying to get a point acrossed.

if such a small percentile is homosexual, and if they are born this way, would it not be considered a abnormality? would it be a genetic mishap? if so should we be looking for a cure?

this is why i think it makes more sense to be a choice, like the new term of pansexual, rather than a disability.

even if it could be considered a genetic mishap it doesn't mean that it's bad or something that could be cured (if it was looked at it like that).

habsheaven
05-07-2012, 11:16 AM
this may sound mean, but trying to get a point acrossed.

if such a small percentile is homosexual, and if they are born this way, would it not be considered a abnormality? would it be a genetic mishap? if so should we be looking for a cure?

this is why i think it makes more sense to be a choice, like the new term of pansexual, rather than a disability.

I don't think so. First, I would dispute the percentages, I don't think it's actually that low. Second, I think the "sexual spectrum" is rather large. People are born with different degrees of masculinity or feminimity despite their sexual preferences. They are born with different degrees of sexual frequency (for lack of the right wordage). Like I said above, it is too complex to pigeon-hole everyone and then start looking for cures.

habsheaven
05-07-2012, 11:24 AM
The word preference you use quite often in your post means "choice".I honestly believe gays/lesbians saying "I was born that way" is just an excuse to say "its ok because I had no control over it"Also..I'm not sure why you insist saying "genes" have nothing to do with it.Every human born is born with both male/female tendencies.At some time in a persons life,how they live it out.A choice in what path they take is chosen.I have yet to hear or see 1 gay person state "I was born this way"Also...I find it quite amusing how many on this thread and most other politcal/religion threads exclusevely show beliefs solely on proof by science.Science has yet to find a supposedly gay gene to claim a human is born this way.

I explained how I arrived at my beliefs about this subject. None of it had to do with science. What was it again that you based your beliefs on?

Star_Cards
05-07-2012, 11:25 AM
The word preference you use quite often in your post means "choice".I honestly believe gays/lesbians saying "I was born that way" is just an excuse to say "its ok because I had no control over it"Also..I'm not sure why you insist saying "genes" have nothing to do with it.Every human born is born with both male/female tendencies.At some time in a persons life,how they live it out.A choice in what path they take is chosen.I have yet to hear or see 1 gay person state "I was born this way"Also...I find it quite amusing how many on this thread and most other politcal/religion threads exclusevely show beliefs solely on proof by science.Science has yet to find a supposedly gay gene to claim a human is born this way.

I'm not saying that genes don't have anything to do with it. I just don't know enough about genes to say. I guess technically most things come down to genes. I'm not equipped enough to argue if it's a gene or not. I find it hard to believe that there would be a gay gene. Just like I doubt there are genes that tell you to like broccoli or not.

Comparing this to using science to not believe in a creator is a bit different. There are concrete things that I experience to tell me that one's sexual preference is not simply chosen. I use my sexual preferences as the major data. There are things I find attractive and I have no clue why. I did not choose to be attracted to those. I just am.

I also feel that if it were a choice, the people who are so tormented by people for being gay that they are driven to suicide would have simply changed their sexual preferences. Makes sense if it was a simple choice that you can just switch on and off.

I don't see why people have such a hard time in recognizing that each of our bodies can have reactions to things that are outside of our control. I lump sexual preferences in with taste and feel for the most part. There are just some things that people can't control.

AUTaxMan
05-07-2012, 11:32 AM
How in the world would I know the answer to this question? I know you think that you know the answer. Unfortunately, I do not. I will give you, what I think, are the possible responses.

1) They may believe in their hearts that they always felt gay. (Born this way.)

2) They may believe that their parents contributed to the development of their sexual identity. (whether they did or not -similar to your belief)

3) They may believe either (1) or (2) and in actuality were born bi-sexual.

4) They may believe they are gay, and find out after they have fully matured that they are actually attracted to the opposite sex moreso than the same sex.

My personal belief, which I base on observations and conversations I have had lead me to believe that people can be born attracted to the same sex, the opposite sex, both sexes and even NEITHER sex. Depending on the level of their preferred attraction, environmental influences can affect some people. At the end of the day, it is a complicated issue full of grey areas. To claim that it is a CHOICE is too simplistic for me. Everything I have seen in life tells me otherwise.

I believe it is a combination of 1 and 2.

hawk2618
05-07-2012, 12:13 PM
I believe I stated my beliefs.You are born with both tendencies at birth.Which you choose down the road in life is up to the human.
I think everyone will always have 1 sort of tendency from the other gender present at all times.Its just human nature.Did anyone ever think that maybe 1 male attracted to another male or female to another female was soley by personality and then they chose to make it physical?? Has anyone ever met a person where the personality was overwhelmingly hypnotizing?? I have,and it can be very persuasive.
That makes more sense to me than being born with it. ~~Dave C.

habsheaven
05-07-2012, 12:22 PM
I believe I stated my beliefs.You are born with both tendencies at birth.Which you choose down the road in life is up to the human.
I think everyone will always have 1 sort of tendency from the other gender present at all times.Its just human nature.Did anyone ever think that maybe 1 male attracted to another male or female to another female was soley by personality and then they chose to make it physical?? Has anyone ever met a person where the personality was overwhelmingly hypnotizing?? I have,and it can be very persuasive.
That makes more sense to me than being born with it. ~~Dave C.

I didn't ask what your beliefs were. I asked what they were BASED on.

boba
05-07-2012, 12:32 PM
I explained how I arrived at my beliefs about this subject. None of it had to do with science. What was it again that you based your beliefs on?

And yet everything to do with the Bible you feel that science is the only answer. Why not look at everything through science? Do you just use it when it benefits your beliefs?

boba
05-07-2012, 12:33 PM
I didn't ask what your beliefs were. I asked what they were BASED on.


According to you, on this issue the facts don't matter.

habsheaven
05-07-2012, 12:43 PM
And yet everything to do with the Bible you feel that science is the only answer. Why not look at everything through science? Do you just use it when it benefits your beliefs?

No, everything to do with the Bible, I think COMMON SENSE is the only answer. Just as I believe common sense is the answer to this issue as well. It is not my fault that the Bible has no common ground with common sense.

habsheaven
05-07-2012, 12:44 PM
According to you, on this issue the facts don't matter.

What facts? Care to share the facts on this issue?

boba
05-07-2012, 12:44 PM
No, everything to do with the Bible, I think COMMON SENSE is the only answer. Just as I believe common sense is the answer to this issue as well. It is not my fault that the Bible has no common ground with common sense.

Everything you say there is a personal opinion.

Star_Cards
05-07-2012, 12:44 PM
I believe I stated my beliefs.You are born with both tendencies at birth.Which you choose down the road in life is up to the human.
I think everyone will always have 1 sort of tendency from the other gender present at all times.Its just human nature.Did anyone ever think that maybe 1 male attracted to another male or female to another female was soley by personality and then they chose to make it physical?? Has anyone ever met a person where the personality was overwhelmingly hypnotizing?? I have,and it can be very persuasive.
That makes more sense to me than being born with it. ~~Dave C.

I personally never chose what sex to be attracted to. I also never chose what type of woman to be physically attracted to.

I agree that a person can be attracted to a very specific person of the same sex and not be attracted to another person of the same sex ever again.

I guess where I stand is... even if it is a choice why do people care so much? Why is it still illegal to have same sex marriage recognized?

boba
05-07-2012, 12:45 PM
Why is it beyond your imagination to think that people can be born with different sexual preferences? Percentages mean absolutely nothing, not sure why you include them in any argument. As for Baxter, just like YOU, (You have a hard time accepting the fact you may have been born hetrosexual.) she may also reject the fact she was born bisexual.

According to YOU. We are ALL born with the ability to CHOOSE which sex we are attracted to. So answer this, were you attracted to the same sex up until the point YOU CHOSE to like the opposite sex only?


Here you go.

Star_Cards
05-07-2012, 12:49 PM
Here you go.

I don't see what the rate of occurrence has to do with labeling something as a choice. The rate of occurrence proves nothing other than it's more rare than a person being straight. Rareness does not mean that people make a conscious choice to be gay.

hawk2618
05-07-2012, 12:52 PM
[quote=Star_Cards;11483979]I personally never chose what sex to be attracted to. I also never chose what type of woman to be physically attracted to.

WOw..really???:confused0054: The first woman you came across was the one for you???
Man....You have all the luck!!!! I had to go through about 6 women to actually find the one I was physically attracted to!!!

habsheaven
05-07-2012, 12:55 PM
Here you go.

Huh? How do percentages mean anything. Explain what relevance they have? I'm waiting.

habsheaven
05-07-2012, 12:57 PM
[quote=Star_Cards;11483979]I personally never chose what sex to be attracted to. I also never chose what type of woman to be physically attracted to.

WOw..really???:confused0054: The first woman you came across was the one for you???
Man....You have all the luck!!!! I had to go through about 6 women to actually find the one I was physically attracted to!!!

I don't think you are grasping what he is trying to say. lol You didn't know when you first looked at them whether or not they were attractive? lol

boba
05-07-2012, 01:02 PM
Huh? How do percentages mean anything. Explain what relevance they have? I'm waiting.


Why should I? Everything that does not fit in your world view is deemed irrelevant by you. If science is your best answer, science is the see all knows all. But if science is not your best answer, it is irrelevant.

There is no point in arguing with you.

habsheaven
05-07-2012, 01:06 PM
Why should I? Everything that does not fit in your world view is deemed irrelevant by you. If science is your best answer, science is the see all knows all. But if science is not your best answer, it is irrelevant.

There is no point in arguing with you.

Rather than continuing to TROLL all my posts with generalizations. Post a FACT that I am ignoring. AGAIN, I'm waiting!!

hawk2618
05-07-2012, 01:09 PM
[quote=hawk2618;11483999]

I don't think you are grasping what he is trying to say. lol You didn't know when you first looked at them whether or not they were attractive? lol

Of course I knew they were attractive.I took it as finding the right woman physically.A woman can be attractive appearance wise but yet on a physical level,not be.All 6 of the women I've been with were very attractve to me,but only one fit the bill physically.Thats how I took it.

boba
05-07-2012, 01:12 PM
Rather than continuing to TROLL all my posts with generalizations. Post a FACT that I am ignoring. AGAIN, I'm waiting!!

Haha, dude calm down. This is and on line board. All you have to do is look at the post that you quoted and deemed irrelevant.

habsheaven
05-07-2012, 01:13 PM
[quote=habsheaven;11484017]

Of course I knew they were attractive.I took it as finding the right woman physically.A woman can be attractive appearance wise but yet on a physical level,not be.All 6 of the women I've been with were very attractve to me,but only one fit the bill physically.Thats how I took it.

Okay, well that's not what I think he was getting at. I think he was referring to what in your make up made you think those particular women were attractive. For example, I am attracted to brunettes and nice butts. I couldn't begin to tell you why.

habsheaven
05-07-2012, 01:15 PM
Haha, dude calm down. This is and on line board. All you have to do is look at the post that you quoted and deemed irrelevant.

I already asked you to explain why you think percentages are relevant. If that's the best you can do it's an EPIC fail.

boba
05-07-2012, 01:19 PM
I already asked you to explain why you think percentages are relevant. If that's the best you can do it's an EPIC fail.


Here's a question I would love to hear an answer to.In the world today....gays make up 0.425 of the population.Thats less than half of 1%.If people are born with being gay/lesbian.Wouldn't you think that % would be a lot higher?? The math just doesn't add up to being born with it.

Your answer.

Percentages mean absolutely nothing, not sure why you include them in any argument.

hawk2618
05-07-2012, 01:29 PM
Boba...that was my quote...not habsheaven.

Oh nm....I see where you went with this..my bad.

habsheaven
05-07-2012, 01:33 PM
Here's a question I would love to hear an answer to.In the world today....gays make up 0.425 of the population.Thats less than half of 1%.If people are born with being gay/lesbian.Wouldn't you think that % would be a lot higher?? The math just doesn't add up to being born with it.

Your answer.

Percentages mean absolutely nothing, not sure why you include them in any argument.

Yes, I know what you were referring to. I asked you to EXPLAIN their RELEVANCE if you think there is one.

Star_Cards
05-07-2012, 01:42 PM
[quote=Star_Cards;11483979]I personally never chose what sex to be attracted to. I also never chose what type of woman to be physically attracted to.

WOw..really???:confused0054: The first woman you came across was the one for you???
Man....You have all the luck!!!! I had to go through about 6 women to actually find the one I was physically attracted to!!!

what? I don't follow. I never talked about finding a mate. I'm talking about women you find sexually attractive by looking at them, wether in person or even ones you see on TV or in the movies. Usually people don;t need to date someone to know if they find them sexually attractive. Sure, personality can be a cause to turn you off from even a very pretty women, but that's more about the process of dating and finding a mate rather than sexual attraction. I'd assume that the five women before you found the one were physically attractive to you but just weren't the right mate for you do to other issues or circumstances. Most people don't date people they don't have an attraction towards.

here's an example of what I'm talking about. If I'm walking down the street and a woman walks into my view I know pretty instantly if there is something about her that I find attractive, physically. I don't really think about it I think she is attractive. I just know. Now that's not to say that people can become sexually attracted to someone who they weren't years before. I just know that for me, who I find attractive isn't really a conscious decision like some seem to think. I feel that sexuality is the same way.

boba
05-07-2012, 01:44 PM
Yes, I know what you were referring to. I asked you to EXPLAIN their RELEVANCE if you think there is one.

No, you failed to explain why it isn't relevant, it's your turn.

Star_Cards
05-07-2012, 01:45 PM
[quote=habsheaven;11484017]

Of course I knew they were attractive.I took it as finding the right woman physically.A woman can be attractive appearance wise but yet on a physical level,not be.All 6 of the women I've been with were very attractve to me,but only one fit the bill physically.Thats how I took it.

was only speaking about physical attractiveness. I wasn't speaking about attractiveness due to the person hitting other benchmarks that each person has when looking for a mate they'd want to spend their life with or even a specific amount of time in a relationship.

Star_Cards
05-07-2012, 01:47 PM
Here's a question I would love to hear an answer to.In the world today....gays make up 0.425 of the population.Thats less than half of 1%.If people are born with being gay/lesbian.Wouldn't you think that % would be a lot higher?? The math just doesn't add up to being born with it.

Your answer.

Percentages mean absolutely nothing, not sure why you include them in any argument.

No. I do not. Why would you have to think there would be more homosexuals if it were not something engrained? The numbers just mean that it's fairly rare. It doesn't do anything to prove it's a choice.

Star_Cards
05-07-2012, 01:49 PM
I'd still like to hear some answers to a question I've posed a few times...

Even if it was proven that it was a choice 100% why does that mean it's wrong or evil or homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry?

Star_Cards
05-07-2012, 01:51 PM
No, you failed to explain why it isn't relevant, it's your turn.

are you talking about the irrelevance of your percentages of gays? if so, the fact that something is rare doesn't mean it's a choice. I don't see how you can make that leap. Rareness doesn't mean something can't be ingrained within a human being.

habsheaven
05-07-2012, 01:55 PM
No, you failed to explain why it isn't relevant, it's your turn.

"Choice or no choice, the percentages will tell us which it is." Sorry, I cannot explain how irrelevant a correlation that is, it just is. If you cannot offer a correlation between the numbers and the proclamation that those numbers make it a choice then don't bother trolling.

boba
05-07-2012, 02:10 PM
are you talking about the irrelevance of your percentages of gays? if so, the fact that something is rare doesn't mean it's a choice. I don't see how you can make that leap. Rareness doesn't mean something can't be ingrained within a human being.

Thank you for answering. I see your point. But if this is correct, then shrewsbury's point does have relevance.
"if such a small percentile is homosexual, and if they are born this way, would it not be considered a abnormality? would it be a genetic mishap? if so should we be looking for a cure?"

What other abnormality would someone not want to cure?



"Choice or no choice, the percentages will tell us which it is." Sorry, I cannot explain how irrelevant a correlation that is, it just is. If you cannot offer a correlation between the numbers and the proclamation that those numbers make it a choice then don't bother trolling.

I rest my case.

habsheaven
05-07-2012, 02:22 PM
I rest my case.

You rest your case? lmao, did you present a case? I must have missed it.

shrewsbury
05-07-2012, 02:27 PM
i think it is a choice, and maybe one some are uncomfortable with. so why not say you have no choice, so you can reason with others and yourself?

what would be wrong with it being a choice? that's better than saying it is a birth defect.

i am against same sex marriage, but not because it is a sin, or because i am trying to discriminate against them. in fact, for some unknown reason, my wife and i have several friends who are gay, including our best friends.

Star_Cards
05-07-2012, 02:28 PM
Thank you for answering. I see your point. But if this is correct, then shrewsbury's point does have relevance.
"if such a small percentile is homosexual, and if they are born this way, would it not be considered a abnormality? would it be a genetic mishap? if so should we be looking for a cure?"

What other abnormality would someone not want to cure?




I rest my case.


I don't think something that is limited or rare as always being a bad thing. Sure there are examples of people with rare diseases or conditions that don;t allow them to live their life as fully or as long as they potentially could if they were without that condition, but homosexuality doesn't doesn't follow that form. Homosexuality doesn't make one's life any less healthy or any less shorter than a straight person.

boba
05-07-2012, 02:29 PM
You rest your case? lmao, did you present a case? I must have missed it.

You continually brush off arguments as irrelevant if you don't agree with them. Then when asked to explain yourself your either to lazy or can't and instead start namecalling. Anyways, Im done arguing with you as theres no point.

boba
05-07-2012, 02:31 PM
I don't think something that is limited or rare as always being a bad thing. Sure there are examples of people with rare diseases or conditions that don;t allow them to live their life as fully or as long as they potentially could if they were without that condition, but homosexuality doesn't doesn't follow that form. Homosexuality doesn't make one's life any less healthy or any less shorter than a straight person.

So would you classify homosexuality as an abnormality?

Star_Cards
05-07-2012, 02:31 PM
i think it is a choice, and maybe one some are uncomfortable with. so why not say you have no choice, so you can reason with others and yourself?

what would be wrong with it being a choice? that's better than saying it is a birth defect.

i am against same sex marriage, but not because it is a sin, or because i am trying to discriminate against them. in fact, for some unknown reason, my wife and i have several friends who are gay, including our best friends.

I think the issue with saying it is a choice is because the people that have problems with it or think it's wrong or what have you then use that to say that you don't need equal rights because a homosexual cold just choose not to be gay. If people could just choose I don't see why people wouldn't choose to be straight just so they aren't judged so harshly for being attracted to someone of the same sex. It's just not that easy so that gives me a lot of reason to feel it's not something one can control.

shrewsbury
05-07-2012, 02:32 PM
Homosexuality doesn't make one's life any less healthy or any less shorter than a straight person.

but if all were gay, all mankind would be gone in the matter of a century or less, so in that matter it is harmful to the human race.

shrewsbury
05-07-2012, 02:38 PM
think the issue with saying it is a choice is because the people that have problems with it or think it's wrong or what have you then use that to say that you don't need equal rights because a homosexual cold just choose not to be gay. If people could just choose I don't see why people wouldn't choose to be straight just so they aren't judged so harshly for being attracted to someone of the same sex. It's just not that easy so that gives me a lot of reason to feel it's not something one can control.
__________________

but that's the people with an issue with its problems. i don't know all gays, but i do know quite a few and they are some of the best people around. smart, good looking, great jobs, always there to help, honest, open, heck they rock. they aren't judged harshly to their faces, only behind their backs, and we all are in that same boat. i have never once had to say anything to anyone about saying something to my friends (and i would)

why do they have to choose to be straight? what's done behind closed doors, is behind closed doors for a reason and one of them is it is none of our business (another one is i don't want to see it)

Star_Cards
05-07-2012, 02:41 PM
So would you classify homosexuality as an abnormality?

I guess anything that isn't the average or the majority is defined as abnormal.

If you want to use abnormal (which has a negative connotation) to identify homosexuality then I suppose by the definition it fits, but so do a lot of things that aren't negative. being abnormal doesn't mean it's wrong. Someone who is super intelligent or the creator of a new style of art or music would also be called abnormal.

habsheaven
05-07-2012, 02:43 PM
i think it is a choice, and maybe one some are uncomfortable with. so why not say you have no choice, so you can reason with others and yourself?

what would be wrong with it being a choice? that's better than saying it is a birth defect.

i am against same sex marriage, but not because it is a sin, or because i am trying to discriminate against them. in fact, for some unknown reason, my wife and i have several friends who are gay, including our best friends.

There would be nothing wrong with it being a choice if that is what it is in some instances. The evidence however suggests that it isn't always a choice. I don't understand how people can be blind to the evidence.

When my 15 year old daughter tells me she is gay and has always liked girls from when she first started school, I tend to believe her. Why would she lie? When a teenager gets bullied for being gay and commits suicide because of it. That's a pretty good indication that they didn't have a choice. For if they did, surely they would choose to like the opposite sex rather than kill themselves.

Instead, people cling to the statements of the odd celebrity that declares they made the choice to be gay. And transfer that argument as evidence to explain every other gay person around.

Star_Cards
05-07-2012, 02:45 PM
but if all were gay, all mankind would be gone in the matter of a century or less, so in that matter it is harmful to the human race.

but we aren't all gay and the human population is in zero threat when it comes to a healthy population. There are probably more heterosexuals that don't have kids than there are homosexual couples. I get what you are trying to say but how homosexuals effect the race a whole has no real bearing when we are discussing the effect on one person's life and their quality of living it.

habsheaven
05-07-2012, 02:48 PM
You continually brush off arguments as irrelevant if you don't agree with them. Then when asked to explain yourself your either to lazy or can't and instead start namecalling. Anyways, Im done arguing with you as theres no point.

Do me a favour. Take all your posts on this subject and paste them to a word document. Then review them and tell me where you contributed to the subject in the least little bit. I haven't brushed off anything. I have presented my opinion on the subject matter and backed it up with my reasons. I am glad you are done arguing with me, because you are right it is completely pointless.

duwal
05-07-2012, 03:07 PM
Here's a question I would love to hear an answer to.In the world today....gays make up 0.425 of the population.Thats less than half of 1%.If people are born with being gay/lesbian.Wouldn't you think that % would be a lot higher?? The math just doesn't add up to being born with it.

Your answer.



People that are redheads make up less than 1% of the population. Do you think they chose to be gingers? Just because its a very small percentage does not mean it is not like the rest of the percentages

habsheaven
05-07-2012, 03:18 PM
People that are redheads make up less than 1% of the population. Do you think they chose to be gingers? Just because its a very small percentage does not mean it is not like the rest of the percentages

They're just abnormal, and need to be cured. Obviously.

boba
05-07-2012, 03:24 PM
People that are redheads make up less than 1% of the population. Do you think they chose to be gingers? Just because its a very small percentage does not mean it is not like the rest of the percentages


They are two very different things, being redhead is something physical, if homosexuality isn't a choice it is something mental. Homosexuality in it's very nature, ( I know I'm going to get hammered for saying this ) is not natural, unlike being a redhead.

hawk2618
05-07-2012, 03:28 PM
There would be nothing wrong with it being a choice if that is what it is in some instances. The evidence however suggests that it isn't always a choice. I don't understand how people can be blind to the evidence.

When my 15 year old daughter tells me she is gay and has always liked girls from when she first started school, I tend to believe her. Why would she lie? When a teenager gets bullied for being gay and commits suicide because of it. That's a pretty good indication that they didn't have a choice. For if they did, surely they would choose to like the opposite sex rather than kill themselves.

Instead, people cling to the statements of the odd celebrity that declares they made the choice to be gay. And transfer that argument as evidence to explain every other gay person around.

So your daughter knew she was gay at 5??? Hmmmm.... a 5 year hold has a hard time knowing whats right or wrong in general.I just can't fathom some child knowing they are gay at that age.
Another thing...not counting parents... when kids grow up, the first to see sons naked are his friends and same goes for the daughters and their friends.I'm talking about showers in schools after sports functions and things.Could that not spurn direction of sexuality seeing at that age,they are ALL in a tender and delicate stage in their life where they might not know its wrong if it presents itself.??? How do you think kids start smoking? By watching others or being offered cigarettes by their friends. "IT WON"T KILL YOU...TRY IT!!

shrewsbury
05-07-2012, 03:37 PM
i still think it is a choice and like the idea of pansexual, makes a lot more sense, than having some oddball gene that only effects a small percentage of the population

habsheaven
05-07-2012, 08:02 PM
So your daughter knew she was gay at 5??? Hmmmm.... a 5 year hold has a hard time knowing whats right or wrong in general.I just can't fathom some child knowing they are gay at that age.
Another thing...not counting parents... when kids grow up, the first to see sons naked are his friends and same goes for the daughters and their friends.I'm talking about showers in schools after sports functions and things.Could that not spurn direction of sexuality seeing at that age,they are ALL in a tender and delicate stage in their life where they might not know its wrong if it presents itself.??? How do you think kids start smoking? By watching others or being offered cigarettes by their friends. "IT WON"T KILL YOU...TRY IT!!

No, she did not know she was gay at 5 years of age. She knew that she liked girls. Do you try to make it complicated on purpose, or do you truly not understand the concept?

habsheaven
05-07-2012, 08:07 PM
i still think it is a choice and like the idea of pansexual, makes a lot more sense, than having some oddball gene that only effects a small percentage of the population

Do you have any idea how many medical conditions there are that only affect a small percentage of the population because of a certain combination of genes?

habsheaven
05-07-2012, 08:12 PM
They are two very different things, being redhead is something physical, if homosexuality isn't a choice it is something mental. Homosexuality in it's very nature, ( I know I'm going to get hammered for saying this ) is not natural, unlike being a redhead.

Why do you know you are going to get hammered for it? Because you know how ridiculous it sounds? Homosexuality isn't physical, it's mental is it? Care to scan your medical degree and post it to the thread?

theonedru
05-07-2012, 08:19 PM
They are two very different things, being redhead is something physical, if homosexuality isn't a choice it is something mental. Homosexuality in it's very nature, ( I know I'm going to get hammered for saying this ) is not natural, unlike being a redhead.

At this point its treated like it is specific to humans, which it is not. So please explain its existence among the animal kingdom.

hawk2618
05-07-2012, 09:56 PM
No, she did not know she was gay at 5 years of age. She knew that she liked girls. Do you try to make it complicated on purpose, or do you truly not understand the concept?


I'm not trying to make things difficult.I was just repeating what you had said is all.With that said....I have a confession....I too liked playing with boys at 5 yrs old.I didn't get interested in girls until 13 or 14.
Unfortunately,we'll never see eye to eye on this subject,but thats ok.
Everyone has an opinion on various subjects on these threads.
I personally like these discussions,as long as they don't get out of control ~~Dave C.

JustAlex
05-07-2012, 10:24 PM
i still think it is a choice and like the idea of pansexual, makes a lot more sense, than having some oddball gene that only effects a small percentage of the population

Let me ask you something....did you CHOOSE to be straight?

At one point did you say...."Hmm, I wonder if I should like girls or boys?"


NO....you instinctively liked girls just like every other straight male.

So, why are Straight people born straight, but gay people choose to be gay?

That doesn't make any sense!

Oh and the "oddball gene" you're talking about....can you explain why certain humans are born with mutations?

Did "God" make them that way?


It's simply hilarious how Christians think!

JustAlex
05-07-2012, 10:27 PM
but if all were gay, all mankind would be gone in the matter of a century or less, so in that matter it is harmful to the human race.

Derp.

It's actually a good thing bro.

Only about 10% of humans are Homosexual, it helps keep overpopulation in check.

Furthermore your assumption is baseless since people DON'T choose to be gay they are born that way, just like some humans are born left handed.

habsheaven
05-07-2012, 10:28 PM
I'm not trying to make things difficult.I was just repeating what you had said is all.With that said....I have a confession....I too liked playing with boys at 5 yrs old.I didn't get interested in girls until 13 or 14.
Unfortunately,we'll never see eye to eye on this subject,but thats ok.
Everyone has an opinion on various subjects on these threads.
I personally like these discussions,as long as they don't get out of control ~~Dave C.

No, that is not what I said. Knowing that she likes girls is not the same as knowing you are gay when you are 5 and have no concept of what gay is. If you did not have an interest in girls until you were 13 or 14, then I suggest you are the exception and not the rule. I have had school yard crushes on girls for as long as I can remember. Sure I played with the boys because we had those activities in common but almost all of us noticed the cute girl in class on the first day.

pspstatus
05-08-2012, 12:09 AM
I met my best friend when I was in third grade. He was a new student. A few weeks later I met the rest of his family. He has AMAZING parents and two younger brothers. One of those brothers is two years younger than me and is gay. When I first met him I remember thinking that he was quite strange because he loved to wear pink and he acted kind of girly. My buddy and his other brother acted completely "normal" so I was a bit confused I guess.

Obviously at that age I didn't have a great grasp on gay or straight but I did learn about sex very early so it wasn't long before I understood more clearly. Throughout the rest of our school years up until high school he never said anything about his sexuality and he never changed.

Then finally when he was a high school senior and I had already graduated he came out. And I imagine that if he made any choice at that time it wasn't whether he was or wasn't gay but rather he made the choice to accept himself as he was. Maybe some people do choose to be gay but this kid did not.

Honestly I think a lot of you folks saying homosexuality is definitely a choice don't really know what you're talking about at all. You're talking on something you have no experience with. And I don't care how many gay adults you may know it's not the same as knowing a gay child. I watched someone grow up gay and I'd bet my life he was born that way.

pspstatus
05-08-2012, 12:13 AM
At this point its treated like it is specific to humans, which it is not. So please explain its existence among the animal kingdom.


Ding! Ding! Good point. Homosexuality in the animal kingdom has been brought up a few times in this thread but the people claiming it's a choice have conveniently chosen to ignore it.

shrewsbury
05-08-2012, 12:55 AM
there is a huge difference in the need to procreate and homosexuality.
all things most procreate to survive, the better at it, the longer your species makes it.
if any species was 100% homosexual, then they would not make it past one generation.

we have sex just for pleasure, 99.999% of the time. it is this great ability (or not so great) that allows us to create sexual relationships and a sexual identity. think about it, most males would hump on anything they could get away with, and animals don't have the mind we do, they aren't judged, or stereotyped, they are just animals.
so our desire to procreate combined with our ability to not want to have babies all the time(free will) creates a situation where we make sexual relationships with other people, sometimes for a short period of time, sometimes for a lifetime, and this sexual relationship does not need to be dependent upon procreation, so homosexuality is not abnormal, nor are you born that way or you could say all are born that way, but some choose not to.

now getting to the next matter

[QUOTE]Honestly I think a lot of you folks saying homosexuality is definitely a choice don't really know what you're talking about at all. You're talking on something you have no experience with. And I don't care how many gay adults you may know it's not the same as knowing a gay child. I watched someone grow up gay and I'd bet my life he was born that way.[QUOTE]

what you described could easily be seen as someone being feminine, not gay. i know plenty of males who grew up this way and our not gay. i know men who are feminine but not gay, but you could be both. this is not different than saying a tomboy must be a lesbian or going to be one.

being born with a gay gene is possible but i say if it is and it is so rare and it goes against the ability to procreate, then it must be something unnatural. because any species must procreate to survive.

but the issue with this is most adults who are gay are quite normal, i am sure there are some freaks, geeks, all everything in between, but so are heterosexuals.
i am sure as a teen if you are a homosexual and are in a situation where friends and family look down upon this, then it would be a very hard choice, but a choice none the less.

JustAlex
05-08-2012, 01:06 AM
if any species was 100% homosexual, then they would not make it past one generation.

But they're NOT!

I previously stated that only about 10% of humans are homosexual, so what the hell is the problem?!?!?!?

If 100% of males were sterile then we would also not make it past one generation.

Do you see how baseless this type of thinking is???

OH and BTW since marriage is only for "People that can procreate" then I suggest that ANY AND ALL Sterile humans should NOT be allowed to get married.

Furthermore, if a male has a vasectomy he is ALSO not allowed to get married.

Oh and one more thing....in order to "protect" the sanctity of marriage...from now on divorces will NOT be allowed and will be punishable by jail time!!!


YES, these are wholesome christian ideals.

GOD BLESS AMERICA! :thumb:

shrewsbury
05-08-2012, 01:13 AM
i am unsure you know hat christianity is based on your last statement.
so if someone is born sterile that is considered normal?
being allowed to do something and having the need to do it our two different matters, so do you see the baseless thinking in this?


hen I suggest that ANY AND ALL Sterile humans should NOT be allowed to get married.

Furthermore, if a male has a vasectomy he is ALSO not allowed to get married.

Oh and one more thing....in order to "protect" the sanctity of marriage...from now on divorces will NOT be allowed and will be punishable by jail time!!!

i am going to guess not, but i may be wrong. and more than likely i am wrong considering you pointed out everything i say is wrong.

theonedru
05-08-2012, 01:22 AM
[QUOTE=shrewsbury;11487433]we have sex just for pleasure, 99.999% of the time. it is this great ability (or not so great) that allows us to create sexual relationships and a sexual identity. think about it, most males would hump on anything they could get away with, and animals don't have the mind we do, they aren't judged, or stereotyped, they are just animals.[QUOTE]

I totally disagree.... I would go into more depth explaining it all but I would prob violate a few rules regarding language or something while describing this scientific theory.

hawk2618
05-08-2012, 01:37 AM
I'm not sure why animals are brought into this subject.Animals have no clue what sex the other animal is without sniffing.Have any of you ever seen a male dog mount another male dog or female on another female?? 100% of the time,a fight will break out or on a lighter side growls happen and it stops.Animals are pretty smart.They know when something isn't right.To compare them to this subject is pretty absurd.

JustAlex
05-08-2012, 01:38 AM
i am unsure you know hat christianity is based on your last statement.
so if someone is born sterile that is considered normal?
being allowed to do something and having the need to do it our two different matters, so do you see the baseless thinking in this?

I wasn't necessarily saying that being gay and sterile were the same in terms or "Normalcy"....although, YES I believe that being gay is perfectly normal and natural, since it IS seen in nature.

I was using it as an example to show that one should be able to get married regardless if they can reproduce or not.

Your baseless claim comes from the fact that you are basically scared that homosexuality will one day become bigger and bigger, and if it were at 100%, it's the END of the human race.

Again...this is ridiculous!

JustAlex
05-08-2012, 01:39 AM
I'm not sure why animals are brought into this subject.Animals have no clue what sex the other animal is without sniffing.Have any of you ever seen a male dog mount another male dog or female on another female?? 100% of the time,a fight will break out or on a lighter side growls happen and it stops.Animals are pretty smart.They know when something isn't right.To compare them to this subject is pretty absurd.

Humans ARE Animals!

We are technically part of the animal kingdom....despite what christians say.

We're all species and part of nature.

Thus the comparisons to animals is a legitimate claim.

hawk2618
05-08-2012, 01:46 AM
ok...compare if you will....but the point was still there and I'm sure you understood where I was going.

shrewsbury
05-08-2012, 08:32 AM
Your baseless claim comes from the fact that you are basically scared that homosexuality will one day become bigger and bigger, and if it were at 100%, it's the END of the human race.

Again...this is ridiculous!

i am thinking he is not the one being ridiculous


We are technically part of the animal kingdom....despite what christians say.

yeah cause christians are the only ones

Star_Cards
05-08-2012, 10:00 AM
Unless I missed a reply, I'd still like to get a response to this question I posted over the last few days.


Even if it was proven that it was a choice 100% why does that mean it's wrong or evil or homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry?

AUTaxMan
05-08-2012, 10:30 AM
Even if it was proven that it was a choice 100% why does that mean it's wrong or evil or homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry?

I believe it is wrong for the church to marry homosexual couples. The Bible is clear in its position that marriage is a physical and spiritual union between man and woman, not between any two persons.

That, to me, is a different issue from states issuing licenses for marriages or civil unions. From a legal perspective, I don't believe that states should be licensing/sanctioning marriage at all. I believe it is the church's place to do that. However, since they in fact do issue these licenses (for a variety of purposes), I think they should merely issue certificates of civil union to all persons and ensure that all persons are treated equally in the eyes of the law. I think that is a fair compromise that ought to satisfy both sides.

Star_Cards
05-08-2012, 01:38 PM
I believe it is wrong for the church to marry homosexual couples. The Bible is clear in its position that marriage is a physical and spiritual union between man and woman, not between any two persons.

That, to me, is a different issue from states issuing licenses for marriages or civil unions. From a legal perspective, I don't believe that states should be licensing/sanctioning marriage at all. I believe it is the church's place to do that. However, since they in fact do issue these licenses (for a variety of purposes), I think they should merely issue certificates of civil union to all persons and ensure that all persons are treated equally in the eyes of the law. I think that is a fair compromise that ought to satisfy both sides.

I can see that stance based off of religious beliefs. I don't understand why someone would agree with a religion that puts forth that rule, but can see why christians feel that way because of the stance of their god/religion. I also don't know how much of that stance is something in the text or how much is an interpretation of the text. I've never really looked into it much since I feel it's a bad stance to have on the topic. I would think that even if it was your religion one could question that aspect. There are loads of things that are official stances of religions that have been molded and changed to make things more appealing or follow more modern conventions. Same sex marriage seems to have never had that for the most part. I'm sure every religious person in this thread have some aspect of their religion that they question or simply choose not to follow.

There are also a lot of people, not particularly here, that simply use the religious argument against same sex marriage or even being accepting of it to say that it's wrong or evil or god's way of punishing people. I get that religion is a big part of people's lives, but some people need to look at things on their own and with their own ideals sometimes. To me lot of the aspects of religion seem like a way for people to not have their own thoughts about specific topics and they just step in line with the religion that they have been taught from child hood.

AUTaxMan
05-08-2012, 02:03 PM
I can see that stance based off of religious beliefs. I don't understand why someone would agree with a religion that puts forth that rule, but can see why christians feel that way because of the stance of their god/religion. I also don't know how much of that stance is something in the text or how much is an interpretation of the text. I've never really looked into it much since I feel it's a bad stance to have on the topic. I would think that even if it was your religion one could question that aspect. There are loads of things that are official stances of religions that have been molded and changed to make things more appealing or follow more modern conventions. Same sex marriage seems to have never had that for the most part. I'm sure every religious person in this thread have some aspect of their religion that they question or simply choose not to follow.

I believe the Biblical position on homosexuality in general would be that (a) the institution of marriage is reserved to heterosexual relationships only, and (b) sexual relations are to be consummated only within a marriage. I don't think these two positions are heavily disputed. Accordingly, all sexual relations (homo and hetero) outside of marriage constitute sin. That would seem to make homosexual relationships in theory ok, but homosexual relations and marriage a Biblical no-no.

Star_Cards
05-08-2012, 02:36 PM
I believe the Biblical position on homosexuality in general would be that (a) the institution of marriage is reserved to heterosexual relationships only, and (b) sexual relations are to be consummated only within a marriage. I don't think these two positions are heavily disputed. Accordingly, all sexual relations (homo and hetero) outside of marriage constitute sin. That would seem to make homosexual relationships in theory ok, but homosexual relations and marriage a Biblical no-no.

I'm aware of the christian stance on those topics and not allowing any homosexual sexual interaction to be okay since they do not allow marriage. My point is there are a lot of people who don't heed the premarital heterosexual rule and yet want to condemn homosexual activity. That ideology is very confusing to me and hypocritical as well.

AUTaxMan
05-08-2012, 03:01 PM
My point is there are a lot of people who don't heed the premarital heterosexual rule and yet want to condemn homosexual activity. That ideology is very confusing to me and hypocritical as well.

We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, even Christians. Christians cannot be expected to be perfect. They can be expected to try their best to live their lives in accordance with Biblical commands and principles. Blatant, remorseless failure on their part to do so is hypocritical, and it is sinful. However, to call a Christian a hypocrite merely because they engage in sin demonstrates an incomplete understanding of Christianity. It also does not change the fact that, from a Christian perspective, homosexual relations is sin.

If I fall to sin, profess my sin, ask God for forgiveness, and truly try not to sin again, I am not a hypocrite for pointing out the same sin in another. i cannot be held to a standard of perfection merely because I am a Christian. I am human, and by nature I am sinful and will sin.

Star_Cards
05-08-2012, 03:11 PM
We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, even Christians. Christians cannot be expected to be perfect. They can be expected to try their best to live their lives in accordance with Biblical commands and principles. Blatant, remorseless failure on their part to do so is hypocritical, and it is sinful. However, to call a Christian a hypocrite merely because they engage in sin demonstrates an incomplete understanding of Christianity. It also does not change the fact that, from a Christian perspective, homosexual relations is sin.

If I fall to sin, profess my sin, ask God for forgiveness, and truly try not to sin again, I am not a hypocrite for pointing out the same sin in another. i cannot be held to a standard of perfection merely because I am a Christian. I am human, and by nature I am sinful and will sin.

I agree, no christian is perfectly clean of sin and I don't believe that someone has to be perfect to point out the same sin in another. I just don't grasp the idea that premarital heterosexual sin is more tolerated than homosexual pre-marital sin. It just seems like it's used to put forth a man's agenda of homosexuality being wrong. If homosexuals can't be married then why isn't what they are doing just considered premarital sex (which from my understanding is a sin that's not all that high of a ranking on the sin scale? To me it seems like homosexuality is ranked far higher on the scale of sins for most.

Also, the people I speak of who have premarital sex aren't just doing it once and asking for forgiveness and then abstaining. To me that is hypocritical.

AUTaxMan
05-08-2012, 03:21 PM
I agree, no christian is perfectly clean of sin and I don't believe that someone has to be perfect to point out the same sin in another. I just don't grasp the idea that premarital heterosexual sin is more tolerated than homosexual pre-marital sin. It just seems like it's used to put forth a man's agenda of homosexuality being wrong. If homosexuals can't be married then why isn't what they are doing just considered premarital sex (which from my understanding is a sin that's not all that high of a ranking on the sin scale? To me it seems like homosexuality is ranked far higher on the scale of sins for most.

In God's eyes all sin is equal. In man's, it is not.


Also, the people I speak of who have premarital sex aren't just doing it once and asking for forgiveness and then abstaining. To me that is hypocritical.

I agree.

theonedru
05-08-2012, 03:37 PM
We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, even Christians. Christians cannot be expected to be perfect. They can be expected to try their best to live their lives in accordance with Biblical commands and principles. Blatant, remorseless failure on their part to do so is hypocritical, and it is sinful. However, to call a Christian a hypocrite merely because they engage in sin demonstrates an incomplete understanding of Christianity. It also does not change the fact that, from a Christian perspective, homosexual relations is sin.

If I fall to sin, profess my sin, ask God for forgiveness, and truly try not to sin again, I am not a hypocrite for pointing out the same sin in another. i cannot be held to a standard of perfection merely because I am a Christian. I am human, and by nature I am sinful and will sin.

Most Christians live their life according to some book put together by a bunch of guys and take it as the word of God instead of actually following in the footsteps and the teachings of Jesus which very very few Christians are willing to do. If a Christian is really truly a Christian then they would emulate Christ as much as possible.

JustAlex
05-08-2012, 04:17 PM
I believe it is wrong for the church to marry homosexual couples. The Bible is clear in its position that marriage is a physical and spiritual union between man and woman, not between any two persons.


That's FINE!

No where does it say that you MUST marry in a church....NO WHERE!

All you need is a stupid paper saying that you are now "Legally married".

That's IT!

Trust me, I'm sure Homosexuals want NOTHING to do with bigoted churches!

Star_Cards
05-08-2012, 04:57 PM
That's FINE!

No where does it say that you MUST marry in a church....NO WHERE!

All you need is a stupid paper saying that you are now "Legally married".

That's IT!

Trust me, I'm sure Homosexuals want NOTHING to do with bigoted churches!

Oddly enough I've known some homosexuals who are very active in church. My old art teacher was even the choir director. I'm not sure of the branch but it was christian.

The hang up with some people is with the term marriage all together. Taxman sees the word marriage as a religion union only and not a union honored by the state. I can see that division but to be honest the term marriage will alway have that double meaning. A religion has the right to honor whatever marriage they want. There are lots of rules that certain straight couples have to follow to marry in the eyes of a church they may attend. I have no problem with that. The problem comes with state and federal rights being withheld do to a religious ideal. Even if they some how separated the word marriage from the state there would still be people against a gay union even if it were in the eyes of the state.

Star_Cards
05-08-2012, 04:59 PM
In God's eyes all sin is equal. In man's, it is not.



I agree.

hmmm... that seems odd to me that sin is sin. I guess in the big picture I can see that, but in our world of varying punishments for crimes it's hard to agree that sin is sin no matter what it is. I guess that is why I'm not a God... I do think it would be super cool to be Thor right about now.

JustAlex
05-08-2012, 05:19 PM
The problem comes with state and federal rights being withheld do to a religious ideal. Even if they some how separated the word marriage from the state there would still be people against a gay union even if it were in the eyes of the state.

Yes, I see the same problem.

A gay couple should be able to marry just like the rest of us, they should have the same rights and live whatever way they want to.

Trust me, in the near future, we WILL see the U.S legalize gay marriage and once again, Christians will be wrong!


hmmm... that seems odd to me that sin is sin.

You know what the problem is....that christians really don't think logically so they don't see the fallacy from saying that "All sin is equal in God's eyes".

I'll explain:

Thou shalt not bear false witness (lie)

OK....then if I lived in Nazi Germany and I'm helping Jews hide in my attic, and the Gestapo comes asking if I have seen any Jews....as a "Good" Christian I must not lie.

If my OWN life is at stake....as a "good" christian I must NOT lie and instead accept my fate!

Thou shalt not kill

OK....then EVERY Soldier that has killed in the middle east has disobeyed god's law and will be going to hell.

Also, If my life in danger and the only way to protect myself is to kill the other person....I am also not allowed to do this!

AUTaxMan
05-08-2012, 06:27 PM
that's fine!

No where does it say that you must marry in a church....no where!

All you need is a stupid paper saying that you are now "legally married".

That's it!

Trust me, i'm sure homosexuals want nothing to do with bigoted churches!

why are you yelling at me?

AUTaxMan
05-08-2012, 06:35 PM
Oddly enough I've known some homosexuals who are very active in church. My old art teacher was even the choir director. I'm not sure of the branch but it was christian.

The hang up with some people is with the term marriage all together. Taxman sees the word marriage as a religion union only and not a union honored by the state. I can see that division but to be honest the term marriage will alway have that double meaning. A religion has the right to honor whatever marriage they want. There are lots of rules that certain straight couples have to follow to marry in the eyes of a church they may attend. I have no problem with that. The problem comes with state and federal rights being withheld do to a religious ideal. Even if they some how separated the word marriage from the state there would still be people against a gay union even if it were in the eyes of the state.

The fact is that marriage is and always has been a church-sanctioned institution. Not until the mid-to-late 1800s (I think) did states begin requiring marriage licenses, one of the primary purposes of which was to prevent blacks from being able to be legally recognized as married. Of course, even today, you can be legally married without a marriage license (or even a marriage ceremony) under common law principles.

pspstatus
05-08-2012, 10:06 PM
there is a huge difference in the need to procreate and homosexuality.
all things most procreate to survive, the better at it, the longer your species makes it.
if any species was 100% homosexual, then they would not make it past one generation.

we have sex just for pleasure, 99.999% of the time. it is this great ability (or not so great) that allows us to create sexual relationships and a sexual identity. think about it, most males would hump on anything they could get away with, and animals don't have the mind we do, they aren't judged, or stereotyped, they are just animals.
so our desire to procreate combined with our ability to not want to have babies all the time(free will) creates a situation where we make sexual relationships with other people, sometimes for a short period of time, sometimes for a lifetime, and this sexual relationship does not need to be dependent upon procreation, so homosexuality is not abnormal, nor are you born that way or you could say all are born that way, but some choose not to.

now getting to the next matter

[quote]Honestly I think a lot of you folks saying homosexuality is definitely a choice don't really know what you're talking about at all. You're talking on something you have no experience with. And I don't care how many gay adults you may know it's not the same as knowing a gay child. I watched someone grow up gay and I'd bet my life he was born that way.[quote]

what you described could easily be seen as someone being feminine, not gay. i know plenty of males who grew up this way and our not gay. i know men who are feminine but not gay, but you could be both. this is not different than saying a tomboy must be a lesbian or going to be one.

being born with a gay gene is possible but i say if it is and it is so rare and it goes against the ability to procreate, then it must be something unnatural. because any species must procreate to survive.

but the issue with this is most adults who are gay are quite normal, i am sure there are some freaks, geeks, all everything in between, but so are heterosexuals.
i am sure as a teen if you are a homosexual and are in a situation where friends and family look down upon this, then it would be a very hard choice, but a choice none the less.


Honestly man I'm not sure what to say to this, but I'll try. First off there are other animals that have sex for pleasure. Not just humans. And by the way technically humans are an animal species. We just happen to be the most intelligent. (Sometimes I'm not so sure)

Also How would one species ever be completely gay? I find that to be a nonsense hypothetical that does absolutely nothing to further an argument against homosexuality.

You say you think homosexuality is unnatural yet it's happening isn't it? You think it's just because people choose to be gay. Really think about that. I know the question has been posed before but if that were the case why would anyone choose to be gay? I saw you reference your lesbian friends before saying that nobody judges or insults them to their face. That they live nice normal lives. Do you really think that's what it's like for all gays? How about 20 years ago? How about 50 years ago? How about during times when being gay could get you arrested? Or places where being gay can get you killed? Do you really believe that people WANT to be gay so badly that they would risk death?

By the way about your friends. Have you told them you think that they are unnatural?

As for my friends brother. You claim that you know plenty of males that grew up that way and are not gay. I know 3 and they are all gay. That's not to say that any guy who acts a little feminine is gay as I know one or two guys who act quite feminine and absolutely clean up with the ladies. But I watched this kid grow up and there's nothing that anyone can say that will convince me that he all of a sudden chose to be gay. Personally I can't think of too many things I find to be more preposterous.

pspstatus
05-08-2012, 10:12 PM
I'm not sure why animals are brought into this subject.Animals have no clue what sex the other animal is without sniffing.Have any of you ever seen a male dog mount another male dog or female on another female?? 100% of the time,a fight will break out or on a lighter side growls happen and it stops.Animals are pretty smart.They know when something isn't right.To compare them to this subject is pretty absurd.


Yeah I've seen my dog mount a bunch of other male dogs. It didn't seem to phase them. So you may be a few percentage points off. Also animals have everything to do with this as we are part of the animal kingdom. Why would it be absurd to compare them in this subject when it's something that occurs within the animal kingdom of which humans are a part?

duwal
05-08-2012, 10:31 PM
I believe it is wrong for the church to marry homosexual couples. The Bible is clear in its position that marriage is a physical and spiritual union between man and woman, not between any two persons.



The bible also states that a marriage is a joining until death do they part. Anyone that gets divorced or separated than by the bible's definition does not have respect for the sanctity of marriage and that is nearly half the U.S. population that is married.

There is no reasoning when a couple that has been together for 15 years can't get married but according to the bible if I go out to Vegas, meet a girl and 4 hours later we get married than OUR union has more validation than the couple that has been with each other for a decade and a half hoping to get married

sublime420
05-08-2012, 10:36 PM
^This

thepistonsfan
05-08-2012, 11:08 PM
As a man with at least one ounce of common sense and respect, I struggle to believe how people are taking this man seriously (listen to the congregation in the background). First of all, to base your hatred of an entire group of people on their private sexual practices is outrageous. To then think you have this 'God-given' right to condemn them for it sickens me. However what sickens me beyond comprehension is the fact that people buy this and lap this stuff up. I am not a man who hates but for the good of the Human race, Pastor Sean Harris should be shot.

JustAlex
05-08-2012, 11:15 PM
The bible also states that a marriage is a joining until death do they part. Anyone that gets divorced or separated than by the bible's definition does not have respect for the sanctity of marriage and that is nearly half the U.S. population that is married.

There is no reasoning when a couple that has been together for 15 years can't get married but according to the bible if I go out to Vegas, meet a girl and 4 hours later we get married than OUR union has more validation than the couple that has been with each other for a decade and a half hoping to get married

Excellent point....and I shall continue it:

The following is how America works:

Situation A: A man goes through life marrying and divorcing so many times he has more rings than fingers!

Situation B: A man marries a woman and proceeds to ABUSE her for the entirety of the marriage.

Situation C: two males who love each other very much who have lived for more than 10 years together are not allowed to have the same rights as the first two situations!

AND IT'S ALL BECAUSE A 2000 YEAR OLD BOOK WITH TALKING SNAKES AND DONKEYS TELLS THEM IT'S "WRONG".

AUTaxMan
05-08-2012, 11:30 PM
The bible also states that a marriage is a joining until death do they part. Anyone that gets divorced or separated than by the bible's definition does not have respect for the sanctity of marriage and that is nearly half the U.S. population that is married.

There is no reasoning when a couple that has been together for 15 years can't get married but according to the bible if I go out to Vegas, meet a girl and 4 hours later we get married than OUR union has more validation than the couple that has been with each other for a decade and a half hoping to get married

Your first point is valid and I agree with it. As to your second, I also believe it wrong for churches to marry people on a whim.

shrewsbury
05-08-2012, 11:31 PM
ok, breaking news

you guys have blown all this out of proportion, just listened to the lastest interveiw with our beloved preacher.

he was telling his people not to let young males be sissy's and if they are give them a punch or slap their wrist.

he was not saying to be violent, but a sock to the shoulder letting them know what they are, males.

so on one hand we see he is not saying to beat anybody, but he is obviously against homosexuality, or any stereotypical homosexual behaviors, including a young boy wearing pink. maybe he should move to sweden, should fit in well over there.


The following is how America works:

Situation A: A man goes through life marrying and divorcing so many times he has more rings than fingers!

Situation B: A man marries a woman and proceeds to ABUSE her for the entirety of the marriage.

Situation C: two males who love each other very much who have lived for more than 10 years together are not allowed to have the same rights as the first two situations!

AND IT'S ALL BECAUSE A 2000 YEAR OLD BOOK WITH TALKING SNAKES AND DONKEYS TELLS THEM IT'S "WRONG".

i am stll intrigue with how differently we think. one of the big issues i have with thtis statement is this,

situation a; married at 22 with baby on the way
situation b; been married 20+ years now and kids grown up
situation c; wouldn't want it to be any different, all the bad and the good

why on earth is marriage so important to homosexuals? you can get benefits from your partners employer without marriage, you can live together, you can have sex, you can go where ever the heck you want.

it is the classic the grass is greener on the other side, perhaps the so called sin is not being gay but coveting.

and some bad news, no matter how you date it, 2000 years is wrong

thepistonsfan
05-08-2012, 11:50 PM
why on earth is marriage so important to homosexuals? you can get benefits from your partners employer without marriage, you can live together, you can have sex, you can go where ever the heck you want.




From a civic perspective, the thing that bothers me the most about the opposition to gay marriage is that they put their religion above the principles that this nation was founded on (individual liberty and equal protection under the law), and *that* I cannot excuse. Furthermore, it has been my experience that the religious conservatives, who oppose gay marriage, are also liberty touting flag wavers. These positions are inconsistent.

I would go so far as to say that anyone who puts their religious beliefs above the principles that this nation were founded on, are being un-American. Opposition to gay marriage is un-American.

JustAlex
05-09-2012, 12:04 AM
why on earth is marriage so important to homosexuals? you can get benefits from your partners employer without marriage, you can live together, you can have sex, you can go where ever the heck you want.

LOL, OK...

This reminds me of the "Separate but equal" statement that many southerners used to make in the Civil rights era.

Why on earth is being able to go to the same schools as whites so important to blacks?

You can go to your own schools and have the same education, you can be on a bus and sit in the back, you can drink water at your own fountain.

Why is it so important?


Let me now answer your question.....

Because we are ALL equal humans, and as humans it does not matter who we marry but that we all get the same and equal rights as everyone else.

thepistonsfan
05-09-2012, 12:08 AM
LOL, OK...

This reminds me of the "Separate but equal" statement that many southerners used to make in the Civil rights era.

Why on earth is being able to go to the same schools as whites so important to blacks?

You can go to your own schools and have the same education, you can be on a bus and sit in the back, you can drink water at your own fountain.

Why is it so important?


Let me now answer your question.....

Because we are ALL equal humans, and as humans it does not matter who we marry but that we all get the same and equal rights as everyone else.


BINGO. http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m239/thepistonsfanTRADEPAGE/REDSKINS%20PLUS/SMILEYS/Frequent/e173d7fc.gif

shrewsbury
05-09-2012, 12:17 AM
this is not education or employment, but friggin marriage, which is completely man made

you are so insecure in your relationship that you need to bind yourself legally to someone to prove you will always be there?

lets see;

jamie and julie have been together for 12+ years and have lived togetehr for 10.
cindy and arlene have been together for 15+ years and have lived together for 14+.
they are all well educated, all have 6 figure jobs, partners recieve benefits from partners employer, all have nice homes, go on vacations all the time, and are great people.
the difference between us and them? well we have been together for 20+ years and married for 20, have 3 kids and raised them all.

so put your civil rights crap back in your destroyed bible and throw it in the fire.

civil rights now equals marriage?

we should all have internet access, which means a broadband connection and computer and we should have it for free if we can't afford it? we should all be able to own any house or car we want no matter what our income is?

it's this crazy "what is fair" mentality that is destroying america not the fact a certain amount of 1/2% of our population can't be legally married

JustAlex
05-09-2012, 12:42 AM
so put your civil rights crap back in your destroyed bible and throw it in the fire.

I wouldn't dare burn the bible....it's one of the greatest fictional books every created.


civil rights now equals marriage?

Yes actually...that's exactly what marriage is....A RIGHT!

A right to be together with another person you love regardless of gender, a right to be acknowledged as a legal union....so YES, I would say that a civil right would and should include marriage!


we should all have internet access, which means a broadband connection and computer and we should have it for free if we can't afford it? we should all be able to own any house or car we want no matter what our income is?

Since when do Rights = income.

Let me help you out, since you are not making much sense.

If I can't afford to buy a BMW...oh well.

However, should I be ABLE to buy a BMW regardless of who I am?....YES!

No one is talking about giving people the rights to be rich or to have things which you must work at to get.

We are talking about giving people RIGHTS to be able to do what everyone else does.

How do you not get this?

habsheaven
05-09-2012, 08:18 AM
why on earth is marriage so important to homosexuals?

Simple, for the same reason it is so important to some straight couples.

shrewsbury
05-09-2012, 08:47 AM
but if they are born with some genetic mutation that could wipe out all of humankind should we not be looking for a cure rather than worried about them being married.

if people are truly advocates for homosexuals and homosexuals are born this way why doesn't anybody care?

Star_Cards
05-09-2012, 08:52 AM
Yes, I see the same problem.

A gay couple should be able to marry just like the rest of us, they should have the same rights and live whatever way they want to.

Trust me, in the near future, we WILL see the U.S legalize gay marriage and once again, Christians will be wrong!



well I don't think it's about being right or wrong. Christians, or any other people have the right to think homosexuality is wrong, but to keep that right away from other people in the eyes of the state is wrong. I tend to agree with you that one day it will be nationally recognized, but then something like what happened in north carolina happens. It makes me sick that people think majority rules on issues such as this. I have no why people are so afraid of allowing gays to marry (in the states eyes). Even if you want to talk about the fact that marriage has a religious meaning, you're blind if you can't see that it also has a meaning within the government. a marriage in a church doesn't give you any of the rights that you gain from a marriage in the eyes of the state.

Star_Cards
05-09-2012, 08:57 AM
The fact is that marriage is and always has been a church-sanctioned institution. Not until the mid-to-late 1800s (I think) did states begin requiring marriage licenses, one of the primary purposes of which was to prevent blacks from being able to be legally recognized as married. Of course, even today, you can be legally married without a marriage license (or even a marriage ceremony) under common law principles.

the sentence brings up a good point. If two heterosexuals can shack up and become married after seven years of just living together, why is there not a religious uproar about that? I'd think that would be just as awful in a christians eyes as homosexuality. I guess for most people it's because they are doing things that aren't "different" than them. Seems like anti same sex marriage people would want common law marriage taken off the books as well because it's a sin.

thepistonsfan
05-09-2012, 09:02 AM
but if they are born with some genetic mutation that could wipe out all of humankind should we not be looking for a cure rather than worried about them being married.




Wow. Guys like you were political and religious stars during the Inquisition.

Star_Cards
05-09-2012, 09:03 AM
why on earth is marriage so important to homosexuals? you can get benefits from your partners employer without marriage, you can live together, you can have sex, you can go where ever the heck you want.



well, one would be the benefits married people get over single people. second would be because as humans they should have that right to marry whatever of-age consenting person they want and not have other people decide for them if it's right or wrong based off of a religious text. Religion does not rule our land so it shouldn't control legislation either.

Star_Cards
05-09-2012, 09:07 AM
but if they are born with some genetic mutation that could wipe out all of humankind should we not be looking for a cure rather than worried about them being married.

if people are truly advocates for homosexuals and homosexuals are born this way why doesn't anybody care?

what are you taking about? stop trying to compare homosexuality to a disease or mutation. And by the way, gay men are still fertile. if all men were gay on the planet, babies could still be created for population purposes, even if they weren't having sex with women.

habsheaven
05-09-2012, 09:07 AM
but if they are born with some genetic mutation that could wipe out all of humankind should we not be looking for a cure rather than worried about them being married.

if people are truly advocates for homosexuals and homosexuals are born this way why doesn't anybody care?

That's a bit much isn't it? Here's a cure. We take the sperm and fertilize the egg and voila we have a potential life. Mankind is saved!!! We have the technology now that men don't even have to come in contact with those icky women, and women don't have to have contact with those disgusting men.

Some may even fall on their sword, and actually engage in sexual intercourse for the sole purpose of procreating. Not like that isn't happening now between many straight couples.

shrewsbury
05-09-2012, 09:14 AM
so are people born homosexual or not?

if so, how is this normal?

if it is abnormal should we not be looking into a cure?

you guys are the ones saying they were born that way, i say it is a choice, so they are not abnormal, just an adult making a choice.


Guys like you were political and religious stars during the Inquisition.

and you are the star of allowing big government, holding back people from their potential, and wanting to take over everything

Star_Cards
05-09-2012, 09:36 AM
No cure for homosexuality is needed. We wouldn't find one anyway. Abnormal only means that it isn't the norm or average. Doesn't mean it's bad or wrong. Abnormal has a negative connotation when it technically doesn't mean only negative.

AUTaxMan
05-09-2012, 09:40 AM
the sentence brings up a good point. If two heterosexuals can shack up and become married after seven years of just living together, why is there not a religious uproar about that? I'd think that would be just as awful in a christians eyes as homosexuality. I guess for most people it's because they are doing things that aren't "different" than them. Seems like anti same sex marriage people would want common law marriage taken off the books as well because it's a sin.

Common law marriage developed for people without access to means of transportation to get to a church to be married.

habsheaven
05-09-2012, 09:41 AM
so are people born homosexual or not?

if so, how is this normal?

if it is abnormal should we not be looking into a cure?

you guys are the ones saying they were born that way, i say it is a choice, so they are not abnormal, just an adult making a choice.

It is normal, just like being born a redhead is normal. It may be different from the majority, but it is normal nonetheless.

habsheaven
05-09-2012, 09:44 AM
Common law marriage developed for people without access to means of transportation to get to a church to be married.


Where in the world did you get that reasoning from? Common law marriage is a result of government recognizing the fact that many people live the lives of married people but choose not to marry.

Star_Cards
05-09-2012, 10:15 AM
Common law marriage developed for people without access to means of transportation to get to a church to be married.

I've never heard that before. But still seems to me that common law marriage would be frowned upon by christians since it's basically shacking up.

shrewsbury
05-09-2012, 11:53 AM
But still seems to me that common law marriage would be frowned upon by christians since it's basically shacking up.

and who cares what christians think?

Star_Cards
05-09-2012, 11:58 AM
and who cares what christians think?

the christian majority does.

shrewsbury
05-09-2012, 01:58 PM
It is normal, just like being born a redhead is normal. It may be different from the majority, but it is normal nonetheless.

so the color of your hair makes your sexual preference one that does not allow for natural procreation?

but i know, we can just use there sperm to procreate, that's not unnatural at all.

Star_Cards
05-09-2012, 02:18 PM
He's not saying that hair color has anything to do with sexual preference, but surely you knew that.

*censored*
05-09-2012, 02:32 PM
It is normal, just like being born a redhead is normal.

So wait...

You're trying to claim that gingers DO have souls?

I'll be monitoring you, sir...

shrewsbury
05-09-2012, 02:37 PM
he needs some serious monitoring :spy:

habsheaven
05-09-2012, 02:55 PM
so the color of your hair makes your sexual preference one that does not allow for natural procreation?

but i know, we can just use there sperm to procreate, that's not unnatural at all.

I must be a little slow today. Care to expand on this a bit so I can tell what the heck you are talking about?

shrewsbury
05-09-2012, 04:34 PM
It is normal, just like being born a redhead is normal. It may be different from the majority, but it is normal nonetheless.

comparing genetics of a redhead to someone who has a sexual preference that goes against nature

again you guys are saying it is a birth defect, i am saying it is a choice, and anyone can choose what they want to do, but birth defects should be researched so we can possibly stop them

MasonRaymond0320
05-09-2012, 05:16 PM
If it's a choice, why would people even choose to be gay if they know other people will judge, and critisize them just because they're different?? Males don't just choose to be attracted to females.. They're naturally attracted to females just like How gay people are naturally attracted to their own gender..

MasonRaymond0320
05-09-2012, 05:35 PM
Also wanted to add...just as an example...
If getting married and raising a family with the opposite gender was against god, and being gay was good, would everyone just automatically convert to being gay so you wouldn't be judged and wouldn't go against god? Even if being gay wasn't your true self?

hawk2618
05-09-2012, 05:49 PM
The part I don't get is....if they're born with it as many think....why do they wait 30, 40 even 50 years to say...OMG....I'm gay!!! Doesn't add up to me....I can see as a teenager being afraid because they might be the only one in class or even the school,but cmon...if by 40 they still have to hide it....either they can't accept it or they're ashamed because you think its wrong.

JustAlex
05-09-2012, 06:14 PM
The part I don't get is....if they're born with it as many think....why do they wait 30, 40 even 50 years to say...OMG....I'm gay!!! Doesn't add up to me....I can see as a teenager being afraid because they might be the only one in class or even the school,but cmon...if by 40 they still have to hide it....either they can't accept it or they're ashamed because you think its wrong.
That's VERY simple...

Because here in America it's still not a "good" thing to be gay.

BTW, the only reason a 40 year old might think it's "Wrong" that's the fault of christians constantly telling them it's a "sin" and they're going to hell for it.

It doesn't matter how old you are, if the majority of society is telling you it's wrong, you're going to think it's wrong as well, and you'll keep hiding it, tormenting yourself that you are an abomination in the eyes of God.

It's so sad, and it's one of the biggest reasons why I'm no longer a Christian.

I couldn't stand idly by as my pastor kept preaching that these people were doing satan's work that they were in rebellion against god.

Gays didn't ask to be gay, they were born that way, just like I was born straight, with brown eyes, and black hair.

MadMan1978
05-09-2012, 06:19 PM
so are people born homosexual or not?

if so, how is this normal?

if it is abnormal should we not be looking into a cure?

you guys are the ones saying they were born that way, i say it is a choice, so they are not abnormal, just an adult making a choice.



and you are the star of allowing big government, holding back people from their potential, and wanting to take over everything


So it is a choice to want to say have cancer? or MS? Or a form MD?

to be honest that thought really is a bit a of a throw back to the 50's or so...


So why when homosexuals ask for the right to marry do you have such issue with it?

Oh and if no one saw the news Yesterday North Carolina banned same sex marriage yesterday...

MasonRaymond0320
05-09-2012, 06:19 PM
Definitely agree with JustAlex's post..:)

MadMan1978
05-09-2012, 06:20 PM
The part I don't get is....if they're born with it as many think....why do they wait 30, 40 even 50 years to say...OMG....I'm gay!!! Doesn't add up to me....I can see as a teenager being afraid because they might be the only one in class or even the school,but cmon...if by 40 they still have to hide it....either they can't accept it or they're ashamed because you think its wrong.

Look as to how they were raised...i think that will explain it all...

years ago maybe even into the 90's being gay was like being a leper

MadMan1978
05-09-2012, 06:22 PM
That's VERY simple...

Because here in America it's still not a "good" thing to be gay.

BTW, the only reason a 40 year old might think it's "Wrong" that's the fault of christians constantly telling them it's a "sin" and they're going to hell for it.

It doesn't matter how old you are, if the majority of society is telling you it's wrong, you're going to think it's wrong as well, and you'll keep hiding it, tormenting yourself that you are an abomination in the eyes of God.

It's so sad, and it's one of the biggest reasons why I'm no longer a Christian.

I couldn't stand idly by as my pastor kept preaching that these people were doing satan's work that they were in rebellion against god.

Gays didn't ask to be gay, they were born that way, just like I was born straight, with brown eyes, and black hair.

+1

this and few more reasons are why I am no longer a Catholic

shrewsbury
05-09-2012, 06:49 PM
i don't think gays are looked down upon
just like blacks or muslims, maybe some loud mouths do, but that is not everybody, and why does it always have to be a god thing? i seriously don't know, do all people who hate gays say it is because it is a sin?
or is it just a few crazy people that have a following, like the black panthers?

MadMan1978
05-09-2012, 07:38 PM
YOu might think it is a sin..but I know this most I do know , know what real love is...not the text as the bible would same.

and comapring gay's to the black panthers? wow thats reaching a ton!

habsheaven
05-09-2012, 07:44 PM
Jay, why do people CHOOSE to be gay? Why do the gay teens CHOOSE to kill themselves rather than just choose to like the opposite sex? I know it has been asked repeatedly but I have yet to see someone who believes it is a choice directly answer that question. Common sense (not that common apparently) dictates that someone being harrassed to the point of suicide would CHOOSE to change their sexual preference if it truly was a choice.

shrewsbury
05-09-2012, 08:59 PM
kids kill themselves for many reasons, and we will never understand why, you are very emotional at this stage, kids kill themselves for many reasons, remember the cheerleader mom?

now you're comparing homosexuality to suicide

shrewsbury
05-09-2012, 09:01 PM
and comapring gay's to the black panthers? wow thats reaching a ton![QUOTE]

you didn't read the post, imagine that

i was referring to gay haters

[QUOTE]i don't think gays are looked down upon
just like blacks or muslims, maybe some loud mouths do, but that is not everybody, and why does it always have to be a god thing? i seriously don't know, do all people who hate gays say it is because it is a sin?
or is it just a few crazy people that have a following, like the black panthers?
__________________

habsheaven
05-09-2012, 09:10 PM
kids kill themselves for many reasons, and we will never understand why, you are very emotional at this stage, kids kill themselves for many reasons, remember the cheerleader mom?

now you're comparing homosexuality to suicide

I am not talking about "many reasons". I am talking about the kids that kill themselves because they cannot handle the harrassment heaped on them because they are gay. That is NOT a comparison, if anything it is a link. Discussions work alot better when the people having them STOP AVOIDING the points being made. You are acting like a typical christian, afraid that if you address a point honestly it won't agree with your personal beliefs.

theonedru
05-09-2012, 09:26 PM
We are forgetting 1 very major point in this whole argument. 99.999% of people who claim to be Christian are not, in fact they are far from it. As I have said before True Christians follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and Jesus would not be saying or doing the majority of things that Christians today do. Plain and simple. People need to quit hiding behind the guise of something they do not follow and admit its themselves that have issues with the world.

MadMan1978
05-09-2012, 09:45 PM
to wit with all this debate and banter...

To those who are against gay people, against providing gay people with the same civic rights as that is afford to those we call "normal", means you wish to call this second class citizens. AS well I am sorry to say that those same people IMO are homo-phobic. and I always to ask what are you afraid of? and please do not use that its in the Bible so it is a love...what about loving thy brother?


-Note is you are offend by these comments I do apologize.

MasonRaymond0320
05-09-2012, 10:03 PM
Why should anyone even care if you are gay or not? Its different and unique..is this seriously an excuse for others to be so judgemental?

pspstatus
05-09-2012, 10:04 PM
i don't think gays are looked down upon
just like blacks or muslims, maybe some loud mouths do, but that is not everybody, and why does it always have to be a god thing? i seriously don't know, do all people who hate gays say it is because it is a sin?
or is it just a few crazy people that have a following, like the black panthers?


Come on man are you serious? I referenced the lesbian friends you brought up in an earlier post. You say that you are their friend yet you call the way they live unnatural. Is that not looking down on them? And please man you are too intelligent to pretend that you don't know there are still a tremendous amount of people who look down on gays.

shrewsbury
05-09-2012, 10:59 PM
-Note is you are offend by these comments I do apologize.[QUOTE]

i certainly take no offense

[QUOTE]Discussions work alot better when the people having them STOP AVOIDING the points being made. You are acting like a typical christian, afraid that if you address a point honestly it won't agree with your personal beliefs.

nobody has avoided anyone, and that seems to be the issue, because i won't bow down to your ideas, so you come acrossed like i am a gay hater.

the fact i say it is a choice and others claim you are born with it, perhaps even bothers people worse. and the funny thing is that just shows how homophobic you are.

you guys seem to think that some how there is no way it is a choice they would have to born that way, and why? because if it is so wrong and there is no way you could comprehend such a thing they would have to born that way, because why would anyone make such a choice. that itself is horrific

while i say, homosexuality is a choice and everyone has a right to there own choice, but some how i am the gay hater.

because i say i don't support gay marriage, because of my belief of what marriage is, you try to tie that into a religious thing, then attack because you associate me with a christian bible thumper looking to throw people into the lake of fire.

how can anyone address such a rediculous point as teen suicide and how some are linked to peer pressure, hazing, sexuality, and many other factors, you could say that about any suicide for any reason.

my wife unloaded a great one on me. she said perhaps god created gays for a reason and who are we to understand why, when i looked at her with shock she said you are the first to question the validity of certain things in the bible so why wouldn't someone add the few passages that are anti-homosexual, people back then were homophobic as well.


You say that you are their friend yet you call the way they live unnatural.

so you have no friends that you would consider to be different from you?

unnatural in breeding and being a sinner or freak is quite different.

i wouldn't have sex with a man, so don't expect me to understand why another man would. i wouldn't be a vegetarian and don't expect me to understand why someone would, and my daughter is, just doesn't make sense. and no all vegetarians are not homosexuals.

and i was pointing out this would be the case if they were born this way, but if it is a choice then it is just a choice. you guys are the one saying someone is born this way, not me

MasonRaymond0320
05-09-2012, 11:43 PM
i still believe they were born that way..I mean I don't ever remember making a choice that I like girls..?

a lot of gay people commit suicide..because of the way they are judged, and can't fit in..why would anyone choose this? I know its your opinion but just asking..

habsheaven
05-10-2012, 08:24 AM
[quote]-Note is you are offend by these comments I do apologize.[quote]

i certainly take no offense



nobody has avoided anyone, and that seems to be the issue, because i won't bow down to your ideas, so you come acrossed like i am a gay hater.

the fact i say it is a choice and others claim you are born with it, perhaps even bothers people worse. and the funny thing is that just shows how homophobic you are.

you guys seem to think that some how there is no way it is a choice they would have to born that way, and why? because if it is so wrong and there is no way you could comprehend such a thing they would have to born that way, because why would anyone make such a choice. that itself is horrific

while i say, homosexuality is a choice and everyone has a right to there own choice, but some how i am the gay hater.

because i say i don't support gay marriage, because of my belief of what marriage is, you try to tie that into a religious thing, then attack because you associate me with a christian bible thumper looking to throw people into the lake of fire.

how can anyone address such a rediculous point as teen suicide and how some are linked to peer pressure, hazing, sexuality, and many other factors, you could say that about any suicide for any reason.

my wife unloaded a great one on me. she said perhaps god created gays for a reason and who are we to understand why, when i looked at her with shock she said you are the first to question the validity of certain things in the bible so why wouldn't someone add the few passages that are anti-homosexual, people back then were homophobic as well.



so you have no friends that you would consider to be different from you?

unnatural in breeding and being a sinner or freak is quite different.

i wouldn't have sex with a man, so don't expect me to understand why another man would. i wouldn't be a vegetarian and don't expect me to understand why someone would, and my daughter is, just doesn't make sense. and no all vegetarians are not homosexuals.

and i was pointing out this would be the case if they were born this way, but if it is a choice then it is just a choice. you guys are the one saying someone is born this way, not me


First, I do not think you are a gay hater. If it came across that way I apologize. I have read enough of your posts that I think I have an understanding of where you are coming from on most issues that have been discussed. On this issue, you seem to contend that it is a choice in ALL cases.

Second, I was not trying to tie it into a religious thing with you. My religious reference was related to the argument style I think you are employing on the basic question I asked.

Third, I do not think I have ever implied that it is never a choice. My contention is that it is not always a choice. That was the reason I asked the suicide question. For me, the choice to commit suicide over it indicates that for some it is highly unlikely a choice to be gay.

Finally, as I have mentioned in the past. I currently have a 19 year old gay daughter, who officially told me she was gay at the age of 15. I did not have to be told, and we laughed about that when I said it. She has told me that she never chose to be gay. For as long as she could remember she always liked girls. For the past four years we have had many conversations about it. None of those conversations involved "getting Dad" to accept my choice. She has known from day 1 that I accept who she IS, not who she has "chosen" to be.

People can dress up their argument all they like and try to justify their opinion. I know that for some it is not a choice, just as I know for me, my heterosexual preference was not a choice. To claim that it IS a choice, by default means that you think all straight people (including yourselves) actual chose to be straight.

Star_Cards
05-10-2012, 08:39 AM
comparing genetics of a redhead to someone who has a sexual preference that goes against nature

again you guys are saying it is a birth defect, i am saying it is a choice, and anyone can choose what they want to do, but birth defects should be researched so we can possibly stop them

who ever said it was a birth defect? Having a homosexual attraction is no more a birth defect than a person liking a certain food or not.

shrewsbury
05-10-2012, 08:41 AM
Habs, fair enough

:thumb:

Star_Cards
05-10-2012, 08:42 AM
The part I don't get is....if they're born with it as many think....why do they wait 30, 40 even 50 years to say...OMG....I'm gay!!! Doesn't add up to me....I can see as a teenager being afraid because they might be the only one in class or even the school,but cmon...if by 40 they still have to hide it....either they can't accept it or they're ashamed because you think its wrong.


it's because sexuality isn't black or white. A person who comes out as gay in his 50's may just have taken that long to figure things out. he may have been afraid. he may have been attracted to both sexes. a person's motivation can be a lot of things. sexuality isn't always just about being gay or heterosexual. there are all sorts of nuances.

Star_Cards
05-10-2012, 08:43 AM
Jay, why do people CHOOSE to be gay? Why do the gay teens CHOOSE to kill themselves rather than just choose to like the opposite sex? I know it has been asked repeatedly but I have yet to see someone who believes it is a choice directly answer that question. Common sense (not that common apparently) dictates that someone being harrassed to the point of suicide would CHOOSE to change their sexual preference if it truly was a choice.

this question has been ignored all throughout this thread.

Star_Cards
05-10-2012, 08:46 AM
kids kill themselves for many reasons, and we will never understand why, you are very emotional at this stage, kids kill themselves for many reasons, remember the cheerleader mom?

now you're comparing homosexuality to suicide

you really need to read what people post. he is not comparing homosexuality to suicide. That notion is ridiculous and you know it. An you surely know that was not what he was saying. He's saying if it's such an easy choice to like the opposite sex then why wouldn't people who have a terrible time dealing with it and take extreme measures due to the pain it causes them for being different just not choose to be straight and forgo all of that pain and torment?

shrewsbury
05-10-2012, 08:53 AM
people are unhappy with their choices plenty of times, and some take it to the extreme of suicide, being gay is no different

and perhaps some do make the choice and some are born with it, but no one here as made the argument that has made me change my mind

saying someone is avoiding you, saying it is religious, saying it is wrong to think so, isn't a great argument

give me something else guys, believe it or not I am listening, and i am still amazed you think people are born homosexual

Star_Cards
05-10-2012, 09:15 AM
people are unhappy with their choices plenty of times, and some take it to the extreme of suicide, being gay is no different

and perhaps some do make the choice and some are born with it, but no one here as made the argument that has made me change my mind

saying someone is avoiding you, saying it is religious, saying it is wrong to think so, isn't a great argument

give me something else guys, believe it or not I am listening, and i am still amazed you think people are born homosexual

I'm not trying to change your mind because I know it's not going to change. In all honestly whether you and I think it's engrained or a choice isn't an issue. The bottom line is that no matter if it's a choice or not it shouldn't mean that it's wrong. It also doesn't mean that that person shouldn't have the right to marry the same sex person that they want.

I personally could care less what religions think about homosexuality. It won't be the only thing that I disagree with religion about. If you disagree with gay marriage it doesn't mean others shouldn't be allowed to do it. It's about the rights of people.

shrewsbury
05-10-2012, 10:03 AM
If you disagree with gay marriage it doesn't mean others shouldn't be allowed to do it. It's about the rights of people.

and i agree, i even stated if any of our gay friends married, not only would i be there, but i am sure i would be a big part of it.

i just don't see the need

back to being born gay

one of my daughters at age 14 or so told us she was gay, we did't say anything execpt the same rules apply. now at age 18 she has a boyfriend, so i am pretty sure she was not born that way, just made a choice and then changed her mind

habsheaven
05-10-2012, 10:09 AM
and i agree, i even stated if any of our gay friends married, not only would i be there, but i am sure i would be a big part of it.

i just don't see the need

back to being born gay

one of my daughters at age 14 or so told us she was gay, we did't say anything execpt the same rules apply. now at age 18 she has a boyfriend, so i am pretty sure she was not born that way, just made a choice and then changed her mind

In such a case I would say it is one of two things. She was confused at age 14 and was born predominantly straight. Or, she is one of those individuals whose sexual identity at birth wasn't strongly defined either way and she has the ability to choose between the two without it going against HER nature.

shrewsbury
05-10-2012, 10:13 AM
Habs, you could be right

we are all conceived as female so anything is possible

being she is a twin and her only other sibling is 14 months older it is easy to say they were all raised the same way, and they were treated very equally

if i took the other persona example on here about being born gay, it would be her sister the tomboy, but she is not gay

Star_Cards
05-10-2012, 10:13 AM
and i agree, i even stated if any of our gay friends married, not only would i be there, but i am sure i would be a big part of it.

i just don't see the need

back to being born gay

one of my daughters at age 14 or so told us she was gay, we did't say anything execpt the same rules apply. now at age 18 she has a boyfriend, so i am pretty sure she was not born that way, just made a choice and then changed her mind

I think some of the need comes from just being able to know that your government fellow citizens don't think less of you by keeping this right away from a specific group. It's easy to say "I don't see the need" when it comes to something that a person won't personally use. There are lots of rights that people have that I would never see a need for personally, but they should still be there for the ones that want to partake.

Well as far as your daughter goes, only she can know how she feels. I'm sure there have been tons of people who have different sexual desires. At age 14 all of that can be rather confusing even if you do feel that you are 100% straight. She may have a boyfriend now but who knows where she will be in another 10 years. Is she gay, straight, or bi? Who really knows. I guess at this point in time she straight. May always be straight for the rest of her life. I still say she should still have the right to marry a girl if she wants to... even if you think it's 100% a choice.

pspstatus
05-10-2012, 03:14 PM
[quote]-

so you have no friends that you would consider to be different from you?

unnatural in breeding and being a sinner or freak is quite different.

i wouldn't have sex with a man, so don't expect me to understand why another man would. i wouldn't be a vegetarian and don't expect me to understand why someone would, and my daughter is, just doesn't make sense. and no all vegetarians are not homosexuals.

and i was pointing out this would be the case if they were born this way, but if it is a choice then it is just a choice. you guys are the one saying someone is born this way, not me


I have friends spanning the whole range of the spectrum. From a vegetarian artist to a scientific advisor in the senate. And I have gay friends who you say are unnatural. I don't see them any differently than I see any of my other friends.

Remember that just because you don't understand something that doesn't necessarily make it bad.

duwal
05-11-2012, 11:11 AM
but if they are born with some genetic mutation that could wipe out all of humankind should we not be looking for a cure rather than worried about them being married.



genetic mutation? You are really a revolting human being for even having that kind of thought process towards others

shrewsbury
05-11-2012, 01:37 PM
[QUOTE]genetic mutation? You are really a revolting human being for even having that kind of thought process towards others[QUOTE]

you love to take things out of context, i say it is a choice, so no genetic anything

it is folks like you who are revolting, saying someone has to be born gay, because why would they choose such a thing, what is wrong with being gay and making that choice?

unnatural in sexuality and an unnatural human being are two different things

if someone is born with a sexual preference that goes against procreation, then something is wrong

if someone makes that choice, then the choice is theirs to make

duwal
05-11-2012, 01:42 PM
[quote]genetic mutation? You are really a revolting human being for even having that kind of thought process towards others[quote]

you love to take things out of context, i say it is a choice, so no genetic anything

it is folks like you who are revolting, saying someone has to be born gay, because why would they choose such a thing, what is wrong with being gay and making that choice?

unnatural in sexuality and an unnatural human being are two different things

if someone is born with a sexual preference that goes against procreation, then something is wrong

if someone makes that choice, then the choice is theirs to make


how exactly did I take it out of context by quoting exactly what you said? You STATED that they are born with a genetic mutation that could wipe out all mankind? That is extremely drastic

MasonRaymond0320
05-11-2012, 04:51 PM
[quote]genetic mutation? You are really a revolting human being for even having that kind of thought process towards others[quote]

you love to take things out of context, i say it is a choice, so no genetic anything

it is folks like you who are revolting, saying someone has to be born gay, because why would they choose such a thing, what is wrong with being gay and making that choice?

unnatural in sexuality and an unnatural human being are two different things

if someone is born with a sexual preference that goes against procreation, then something is wrong

if someone makes that choice, then the choice is theirs to makeits our choice that we choose to think that people are born the way they are..we're revolting because we choose to think that way?

like i said before..i have never made a choice to like females..which is my reason why i dont think we just make a choice to like the opposite gender or the same gender..

and why would there be anything wrong anyways even if it was proved that people are born gay?

theonedru
05-11-2012, 07:29 PM
[QUOTE]genetic mutation? You are really a revolting human being for even having that kind of thought process towards others[QUOTE]

you love to take things out of context, i say it is a choice, so no genetic anything

it is folks like you who are revolting, saying someone has to be born gay, because why would they choose such a thing, what is wrong with being gay and making that choice?

unnatural in sexuality and an unnatural human being are two different things

if someone is born with a sexual preference that goes against procreation, then something is wrong

if someone makes that choice, then the choice is theirs to make

Can anyone prove it is a choice, if not then its nothing but a personal opinion? I do not think one of my best friends chose to blow his brains out because he chose to be gay and put up with the torment that he did. That makes zero sense that someone would choose death over being straight... Can anyone even prove that is is an unnatural act.. No they cannot as such is is not an unnatural act.

shrewsbury
05-12-2012, 09:52 PM
my best friend blew his brains out at age 23 because he felt lonely. so i fell for anyone who has lost someone dear to them.

the science of attraction does not explain homosexuality, so i think it is a choice, and just because i am not for it, nor see the need for them to marry, doesn't mean i would try to stop them. people do all kinds of stuff i don't see a need for, but that's me not them.

hawk2618
05-12-2012, 10:45 PM
my best friend blew his brains out at age 23 because he felt lonely. so i fell for anyone who has lost someone dear to them.

the science of attraction does not explain homosexuality, so i think it is a choice, and just because i am not for it, nor see the need for them to marry, doesn't mean i would try to stop them. people do all kinds of stuff i don't see a need for, but that's me not them.


That phrase struck something in me.This opened a new door to my belief.I believe it all starts with attraction.Attraction leads to a friendship......
and then at times, it can lead to a romantic relationship.Does a human choose which person they are attracted to or are humans born to be attracted to a specific gender.Just because someone is attracted to someone,it doesn't necessarily mean it has to be physical.Thats where I believe the choice is made.After the friendship becomes irresistable and the temptation becomes unbearable.
~~Dave C.

JustAlex
05-12-2012, 10:56 PM
my best friend blew his brains out at age 23 because he felt lonely. so i fell for anyone who has lost someone dear to them.

the science of attraction does not explain homosexuality, so i think it is a choice, and just because i am not for it, nor see the need for them to marry, doesn't mean i would try to stop them. people do all kinds of stuff i don't see a need for, but that's me not them.

OK, first of all, let me start by saying that I am sorry for the loss of your friend.

But let's think about this rationally.


THERE IS EVIDENCE that shows that people are born gay, this isn't a simple hypothesis or whatever, here I'll give you the evidence, there are plenty of articles that show/explain it:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6519
http://www.livescience.com/2623-gays-dont-extinct.html
http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/news/20050128/is-there-gay-gene
http://allpsych.com/journal/homosexuality.html

As an open minded individual I don't take ANYTHING by faith, I wan to see evidence and I've read many scientific articles which proves that Gays are indeed born that way.

The people that keep saying "it's a choice" have ABSOLUTELY NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE to back up their claim.

And once again this comes back to religion, the reason Christians want it to be a "Choice" is because they don't want to think about the possibility that Gays are indeed born that way.

In a Christian's mind, if Gays are born gay, than that means GOD created them gay, which immediately presents a PARADOX .

How can God create something which he is against?

theonedru
05-12-2012, 11:01 PM
OK, first of all, let me start by saying that I am sorry for the loss of your friend.

But let's think about this rationally.


THERE IS EVIDENCE that shows that people are born gay, this isn't a simple hypothesis or whatever, here I'll give you the evidence, there are plenty of articles that show/explain it:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn6519
http://www.livescience.com/2623-gays-dont-extinct.html
http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/news/20050128/is-there-gay-gene
http://allpsych.com/journal/homosexuality.html

As an open minded individual I don't take ANYTHING by faith, I wan to see evidence and I've read many scientific articles which proves that Gays are indeed born that way.

The people that keep saying "it's a choice" have ABSOLUTELY NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE to back up their claim.

And once again this comes back to religion, the reason Christians want it to be a "Choice" is because they don't want to think about the possibility that Gays are indeed born that way.

In a Christian's mind, if Gays are born gay, than that means GOD created them gay, which immediately presents a PARADOX .

How can God create something which he is against?

Even if it is unnatural it is still natural to God because according to the bible he is the creator of ALL things so to him homosexuality would be an acceptable thing, its to us bigoted humans where issues lay. Like I have said before most Christians are not true Christians anyways as much as they claim because they do not follow the teachings of Christ.

JustAlex
05-12-2012, 11:05 PM
Like I have said before most Christians are not true Christians anyways as much as they claim because they do not follow the teachings of Christ.

Do you believe that Christians should discard the Old Testament?

This is a serious question.

Because I find most of the HORRIBLE things that are in the Bible lie in the OT, including the whole nonsense of KILLING Gays, slavery, genocide, infanticide, and many other gruesome things.


Anyways, here is a good video that explains more on Homosexuality:

MfBOGXFkC8c

theonedru
05-12-2012, 11:16 PM
Do you believe that Christians should discard the Old Testament?

This is a serious question.

Because I find most of the HORRIBLE things that are in the Bible lie in the OT, including the whole nonsense of KILLING Gays, slavery, genocide, infanticide, and many other gruesome things.

They should discard the whole thing because although inspired by God, it was written by man, edited by man and as such is not even close to being the word of God.

JustAlex
05-12-2012, 11:23 PM
They should discard the whole thing because although inspired by God, it was written by man, edited by man and as such is not even close to being the word of God.

Well, I see we finally can agree on something.

Although, I personally don't believe the Bible was inspired by God, since I don't believe there is such a thing as "god".

I think on another post you said you were agnostic.

Is your agnosticism the type where you still hold Christian beliefs?

Or do you simply stay neutral on the "is there a god" question?

theonedru
05-13-2012, 02:08 AM
Well, I see we finally can agree on something.

Although, I personally don't believe the Bible was inspired by God, since I don't believe there is such a thing as "god".

I think on another post you said you were agnostic.

Is your agnosticism the type where you still hold Christian beliefs?

Or do you simply stay neutral on the "is there a god" question?

Though science cannot prove a good proof of theory you have to ask yourself exactly what constitutes a "God".

I am a firm believer that if science can provide a good proof of theory then I can accept it. Science can provide theories of proof for an afterlife, though not a heaven, but then again, what exactly constitutes a heaven. I cannot adhere to atypical Christian beliefs though I can agree that Jesus teachings of love, compassion, understanding, tolerance are something I could get behind. I am actually a very complex person I just seriously dumb myself down alot.