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View Full Version : Manny Pacquiao KO’s gay marriage



pwaldo
05-15-2012, 09:31 PM
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0512/76316.html


In an interview with the Examiner.com, Pacquiao, now a legislator in the Philippines, said, “God only expects man and woman to be together and to be legally married, only if they so are in love with each other.”

Calling gay marriage an “abomination,” Pacquiao referenced the Bible, saying “It should not be of the same sex so as to adulterate the altar of matrimony, like in the days of Sodom and Gomorrah of old.”

The Examiner paraphrases Pacquiao: “Pacquiao’s directive for Obama calls societies to fear God and not to promote sin, inclusive of same-sex marriage and cohabitation, notwithstanding what Leviticus 20:13 has been pointing all along: ‘If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.’ … America should be the model of morality for other countries to emulate and must have the responsibility to uphold the Scripture to the highest order of God’s command, he adds.”

JustAlex
05-15-2012, 10:18 PM
Nothing new here....

Athletes are always thanking "god" for their victories and talent, it's not really surprising that he would be anti-gay.

theonedru
05-15-2012, 11:24 PM
Just another hate inducing fear monger to add to the list

TPotts
05-15-2012, 11:25 PM
He has an opinion like the rest of us, don't see the need to write an article on it...

shrewsbury
05-16-2012, 10:24 AM
anti-gay = against gay marriage?

obviously he is anti-gay, but that does not mean everyone against gay marriage are gay haters.

trying to redefine the roles of a man and woman is one issue with state recognized gay marriage

angel0430
05-16-2012, 11:02 AM
I have plenty of gay friends but I do not support gay marriage. I support their legal union but not marriage..if it makes sense...my friends know my stance on it and they are fine with it. That is his way of thinking, he is entitled to his opinion.

shrewsbury
05-16-2012, 11:03 AM
i have plenty of gay friends but i do not support gay marriage. I support their legal union but not marriage..

+1

duane1969
05-16-2012, 11:29 AM
Funny. Athletes are only supposed to speak out about their views if their views are liberal. If they are conservative then they are attacked, called names and demeaned.

I find it funny because liberals claim to be open-minded and to love everyone, but as soon as someone doesn't see things their way then they go on the attack calling names and being insulting. So much for being "liberal".

"We are totally open-minded...as long as you see it our way!!" ROFL

JustAlex
05-16-2012, 11:48 AM
I have plenty of gay friends but I do not support gay marriage.

LOL, this response was also used in the 1950s.

"I have plenty Black friends....but I still support segregation".


I have ONE friend who is gay, and unfortunately for him, he can't enjoy the same right I have to get married.

All because we have decided that his love is "Immoral"....and here we are in the 21st century.

ensbergcollector
05-16-2012, 11:51 AM
LOL, this response was also used in the 1950s.

"I have plenty Black friends....but I still support segregation".


I have ONE friend who is gay, and unfortunately for him, he can't enjoy the same right I have to get married.

All because we have decided that his love is "Immoral"....and here we are in the 21st century.

you have got to stop comparing segregation with gay marriage...not even close.

boba
05-16-2012, 11:51 AM
LOL, this response was also used in the 1950s.

"I have plenty Black friends....but I still support segregation".


I have ONE friend who is gay, and unfortunately for him, he can't enjoy the same right I have to get married.

All because we have decided that his love is "Immoral"....and here we are in the 21st century.

Don't you think having a marriage certificate and black segregation are a little incomparable? And no, in 50 years we won't look at this issue like we look at segregation.

shrewsbury
05-16-2012, 11:51 AM
so redefining what a woman and what a man is, is ok?

can you not see there is some differences no matter how you try and clump them together?

this is not about equal pay or rights to vote, this is about the roles a male and female play in our society.

again, i am not talking morals or values, but the difference in gender and how that relates to their role in society

JustAlex
05-16-2012, 12:14 PM
you have got to stop comparing segregation with gay marriage...not even close.

No, I won't stop comparing them, because they ARE similar.

Both actions are negating RIGHTS to minorities just because they are "different".

YES, I know segregation was bigger and more important....but right now, the biggest oppression to minorities is the denial of same sex marriage....no doubt about it.



And no, in 50 years we won't look at this issue like we look at segregation.

It won't be looked at as important as ending segregation....I agree.

However, we will look back with SHAME that in the 21st century we were still oppressing minorities simply for being different.

ensbergcollector
05-16-2012, 12:20 PM
No, I won't stop comparing them, because they ARE similar.

Both actions are negating RIGHTS to minorities just because they are "different".

YES, I know segregation was bigger and more important....but right now, the biggest oppression to minorities is the denial of same sex marriage....no doubt about it.




It won't be looked at as important as ending segregation....I agree.

However, we will look back with SHAME that in the 21st century we were still oppressing minorities simply for being different.

you seem to think it is perfectly ok to look down upon people on a personal level for being different. let's see, in the week that you have been here you have made it very clear that you look down upon christians, you look down upon people from the south...anyone else we should know you look down upon?

and that is the large hypocrisy. liberals want to be able to look down on, ridicule, condescend, and mock, anyone who doesn't agree with them. All the while knocking conservatives for having the nerve to not be ok with everything.

habsheaven
05-16-2012, 12:21 PM
so redefining what a woman and what a man is, is ok?

can you not see there is some differences no matter how you try and clump them together?

this is not about equal pay or rights to vote, this is about the roles a male and female play in our society.

again, i am not talking morals or values, but the difference in gender and how that relates to their role in society

I was unaware that society gets to determine MY role as a man. I thought being a HUMAN BEING gave me the right to make those decisions.

JustAlex
05-16-2012, 12:27 PM
you seem to think it is perfectly ok to look down upon people on a personal level for being different. let's see, in the week that you have been here you have made it very clear that you look down upon christians, you look down upon people from the south...anyone else we should know you look down upon?.

No, having disagreements is one thing, negating rights is another.

I disagree with Christians, conservatives, and republicans.....however, as much as I think they are wrong on EVERYTHING, I would NEVER want to negate any of their rights.

I don't look down upon anyone, I have disagreements and arguments but I don't think I have said in any of my posts that christians/conservatives/republicans shouldn't be able to do this or that.

ensbergcollector
05-16-2012, 12:34 PM
No, having disagreements is one thing, negating rights is another.

I disagree with Christians, conservatives, and republicans.....however, as much as I think they are wrong on EVERYTHING, I would NEVER want to negate any of their rights.

I don't look down upon anyone, I have disagreements and arguments but I don't think I have said in any of my posts that christians/conservatives/republicans shouldn't be able to do this or that.

you are right. you have not said that any of them should have rights negated. however, i doubt you can say with a straight face that you don't look down on anyone.

Star_Cards
05-16-2012, 12:35 PM
you have got to stop comparing segregation with gay marriage...not even close.

it's definitely not as huge of a rights violation as segregation, but still the right should be there.

Star_Cards
05-16-2012, 12:37 PM
I have plenty of gay friends but I do not support gay marriage. I support their legal union but not marriage..if it makes sense...my friends know my stance on it and they are fine with it. That is his way of thinking, he is entitled to his opinion.

are they against gay marriage with the term marriage being used as it's religious root? Marriage also has a usage in the eyes of the state that deals with benefits and such that are offered by the state for married couples.

duane1969
05-16-2012, 01:34 PM
No, I won't stop comparing them, because they ARE similar.

Both actions are negating RIGHTS to minorities just because they are "different".

YES, I know segregation was bigger and more important....but right now, the biggest oppression to minorities is the denial of same sex marriage....no doubt about it.




It won't be looked at as important as ending segregation....I agree.

However, we will look back with SHAME that in the 21st century we were still oppressing minorities simply for being different.

Gays are not minorities. Sorry. If gays are minorities then so are left-handed people, redheads and people with webbed feet. Simply being a member of a group of people that represents a small portion of the population does not immediately qualify you for the term "minority". You may be a minority in terms of population, but you are not a minority in the legal sense.

duwal
05-16-2012, 01:51 PM
Funny. Athletes are only supposed to speak out about their views if their views are liberal. If they are conservative then they are attacked, called names and demeaned.

I find it funny because liberals claim to be open-minded and to love everyone, but as soon as someone doesn't see things their way then they go on the attack calling names and being insulting. So much for being "liberal".

"We are totally open-minded...as long as you see it our way!!" ROFL

hopefully you're not okay with and/or agree with a fellow conservative like Pacquiao in saying that 'gay men should be put to death'? I'm a strong republican but I think what he said is absolutely disgusting and warrants people attacking him for his views.

I do agree with the liberal side in defending the rights of gay men and women. And to shun Pacquiao for what he said and Tebow for saying homosexuals will burn in hell and others like them

duwal
05-16-2012, 01:58 PM
Don't you think having a marriage certificate and black segregation are a little incomparable? And no, in 50 years we won't look at this issue like we look at segregation.


well we might be looking to this 50 years down the line as we look at inter-racial marriage now compared to 50 years ago. Even into the early 1970's there was still a couple states that had it illegal for a black man to marry a white woman. 50 years ago, 1962, how many states had it acceptable for an inter-racial couple to get married?? Now present day, how many states have it acceptable for a homosexual couple to get married??

It doesn't compare to what blacks had to go through with segregation, not even close. But it is very much on par with the choices a black person had on who they had the right to marry generations ago

shrewsbury
05-16-2012, 02:21 PM
but you are talking man and woman, not same sex

redefining the roles of what a man and woman are are a huge factor with gay marriage

pghin08
05-16-2012, 02:31 PM
Funny. Athletes are only supposed to speak out about their views if their views are liberal. If they are conservative then they are attacked, called names and demeaned.

I find it funny because liberals claim to be open-minded and to love everyone, but as soon as someone doesn't see things their way then they go on the attack calling names and being insulting. So much for being "liberal".

"We are totally open-minded...as long as you see it our way!!" ROFL

By pigeonholing all liberals as being people who judge those with conservative beliefs, aren't you doing the same thing as you're railing against?

boba
05-16-2012, 03:15 PM
hopefully you're not okay with and/or agree with a fellow conservative like Pacquiao in saying that 'gay men should be put to death'? I'm a strong republican but I think what he said is absolutely disgusting and warrants people attacking him for his views.

I do agree with the liberal side in defending the rights of gay men and women. And to shun Pacquiao for what he said and Tebow for saying homosexuals will burn in hell and others like them

They paraphrased Pacquiao on that part, I would like to see what his quote actually was.

Also, were do you get that Tebow, " gays will burn in hell " quote. Couldn't find it on google.

duane1969
05-16-2012, 03:17 PM
hopefully you're not okay with and/or agree with a fellow conservative like Pacquiao in saying that 'gay men should be put to death'? I'm a strong republican but I think what he said is absolutely disgusting and warrants people attacking him for his views.

I do agree with the liberal side in defending the rights of gay men and women. And to shun Pacquiao for what he said and Tebow for saying homosexuals will burn in hell and others like them

Paqman didn't say that gays should be put to death. That is something that a reporter added in on his own and the liberal-biased media has regurgitated it as his words.


One writer references the bible scripture in Leviticus 20:13, that says homosexuals should be "put to death." However, the boxing champion, a devout Christian, denies ever reading that particular verse, or even having knowledge of its existence.

"I didn’t say that, that’s a lie ... I didn’t know that quote from Leviticus because I haven’t read the Book of Leviticus yet. I’m not against gay people ... I have a relative who is also gay. We can’t help it if they were born that way," Manny says on the subject of gay marriage in general.

In short, Manny Pacquiao is not homophobic, nor does he believe gays and lesbians should be "put to death." Instead, he believes that the institution of gay marriage conflicts with the word of God.



The liberal media says he said something that he didn't say, spreads it all over and turns the general perception against him, has people attacking him and labeling him unfairly, and for what? Because he said he disagrees with gay marriage. So now who is hate-mongering?

http://www.examiner.com/article/manny-pacquiao-sets-record-straight-on-gay-marriage


By pigeonholing all liberals as being people who judge those with conservative beliefs, aren't you doing the same thing as you're railing against?

No, because I am not judging and name-calling. You never see me calling people who support gay marriage a name or labeling them with some derogatory term because of their position. If somebody has a position different from mine then I am more than willing to debate and discuss it. When I see an automated response of calling someone a hate-monger or bigot simply because they have a different opinion then I can't help but challenge it. Liberals who do this type of thing like to consider themselves open-minded and fair when in reality they are the most closed-minded and unfair of us all.

theonedru
05-16-2012, 03:23 PM
He is in a position of power and instead of using it for the greater good of humanity he decides to use it to discriminate and pass hate upon a certain segment of the population, I stand by what I said. Bible thumping Christians need to be reminded again and again to remember what Jesus taught not what a bunch of guys wrote in a book want you to remember.. If they could comprehend this then we would not have half the issues we do.

boba
05-16-2012, 03:34 PM
He is in a position of power and instead of using it for the greater good of humanity he decides to use it to discriminate and pass hate upon a certain segment of the population, I stand by what I said. Bible thumping Christians need to be reminded again and again to remember what Jesus taught not what a bunch of guys wrote in a book want you to remember.. If they could comprehend this then we would not have half the issues we do.

In saying this your doing the same against him and his opinion.

Btw, what did Jesus teach on homosexuality?

duane1969
05-16-2012, 03:40 PM
He is in a position of power and instead of using it for the greater good of humanity he decides to use it to discriminate and pass hate upon a certain segment of the population, I stand by what I said. Bible thumping Christians need to be reminded again and again to remember what Jesus taught not what a bunch of guys wrote in a book want you to remember.. If they could comprehend this then we would not have half the issues we do.

So being against gay marriage is automatically discrimination and passing hate? That is a rhetorical question.

People like you need to be constantly taught that you know nothing about what Jesus taught. I will give you $100 if you can provide me with definitive proof that Jesus taught that we are to love and accept gay people.

theonedru
05-16-2012, 03:51 PM
In saying this your doing the same against him and his opinion.

Btw, what did Jesus teach on homosexuality?

Nope, your stretching and in the total wrong direction by trying to twist what I said....

We all know what he taught and we all know that the majority of Christians do not follow what he teaches.

pghin08
05-16-2012, 03:55 PM
No, because I am not judging and name-calling. You never see me calling people who support gay marriage a name or labeling them with some derogatory term because of their position. If somebody has a position different from mine then I am more than willing to debate and discuss it. When I see an automated response of calling someone a hate-monger or bigot simply because they have a different opinion then I can't help but challenge it. Liberals who do this type of thing like to consider themselves open-minded and fair when in reality they are the most closed-minded and unfair of us all.

You hate-monger. You're really hating on my ability to hate people. :fighting0023:

Haha, for the record, I'm totally a liberal who considers myself open-minded. It's for others to judge whether I am or not. I'm biased.

Star_Cards
05-16-2012, 03:56 PM
so redefining what a woman and what a man is, is ok?

can you not see there is some differences no matter how you try and clump them together?

this is not about equal pay or rights to vote, this is about the roles a male and female play in our society.

again, i am not talking morals or values, but the difference in gender and how that relates to their role in society

I'm not sure I follow when you are talking about gender roles and marriage. Gender roles have been completely redefined over the past 70 years. The gender roles that both men and women have today are completely different than what they once were. Gender roles are constantly changing so I fail to see a negative to that even if same sex marriage would impact them... which I don't really see.

Same sex marriage has nothing to do with defining what a man or a woman are. It's about allowing individuals to marry the same sex if they want to and being afforded the same rights and benefits that heterosexual couples currently have as recognized by the state.

I'll also add that our definition of even heterosexual marriage is completely different than what it was in the 50's. I don't get the issue with that. A marriage is about the individuals who are in it and what makes each one work. It's not about a social norm or ideal of marriage that makes them work.

duane1969
05-16-2012, 03:58 PM
We all know what he taught and we all know that the majority of Christians do not follow what he teaches.

http://www.yurock.net/wp-content/gallery/bill/100_usd_01.jpg

Lay it on me.

theonedru
05-16-2012, 03:59 PM
So being against gay marriage is automatically discrimination and passing hate? That is a rhetorical question.

People like you need to be constantly taught that you know nothing about what Jesus taught. I will give you $100 if you can provide me with definitive proof that Jesus taught that we are to love and accept gay people.

And you can prove he didn't accept them? I will wait for you to school me ..

duane1969
05-16-2012, 03:59 PM
You hate-monger. You're really hating on my ability to hate people. :fighting0023:

Haha, for the record, I'm totally a liberal who considers myself open-minded. It's for others to judge whether I am or not. I'm biased.

Honestly, you are one of the more open-minded non-judgemental liberals I have ever known. The political version of a spotted zebra LOL

duane1969
05-16-2012, 04:00 PM
And you can prove he didn't accept them? I will wait for you to school me ..

I need to prove nothing. I am not the one attacking Christians saying that they need to be taught something.

theonedru
05-16-2012, 04:10 PM
I need to prove nothing. I am not the one attacking Christians saying that they need to be taught something.

hey, just because Someone calls themselves something doesn't mean they are, there are a lot of misguided people out there claiming to be something they are not. This can be argued in 1 of 2 ways

1. read the teachings of Jesus and think are the majority of Christians like that

2. In the bible it states that God created ALL things He is Lord God over all, as such he would have no problem with homosexuality since he "invented" it..

pghin08
05-16-2012, 04:14 PM
Honestly, you are one of the more open-minded non-judgemental liberals I have ever known. The political version of a spotted zebra LOL

I have a quote on my desk that says "The acceptance of uncertainty is a cornerstone of rationality." I try to live by the fact that while I may have opinions, they are only that. I can always say or think something that ends up being wrong. If we can accept that we aren't infallible, we can all learn a lot more.

duane1969
05-16-2012, 06:46 PM
1. read the teachings of Jesus and think are the majority of Christians like that

Don't even know what that means.


2. In the bible it states that God created ALL things He is Lord God over all, as such he would have no problem with homosexuality since he "invented" it..

The flaw in your statement is simple. God created man. Man was perfect. God gave man a woman for companionship. God's plan was man and woman. Satan defiled man. Man became a flawed sinner. God did not create homosexual men, Satan did.

You said that not accepting homosexuals is against the teachings of Jesus. Still waiting on you to back that up.

duane1969
05-16-2012, 06:47 PM
I have a quote on my desk that says "The acceptance of uncertainty is a cornerstone of rationality." I try to live by the fact that while I may have opinions, they are only that. I can always say or think something that ends up being wrong. If we can accept that we aren't infallible, we can all learn a lot more.

Unfortuantely there are fewer and fewer people who are willing to accept that they can be wrong or will admit when they are wrong.

duwal
05-16-2012, 07:03 PM
The flaw in your statement is simple. God created man. Man was perfect. God gave man a woman for companionship. God's plan was man and woman. Satan defiled man. Man became a flawed sinner. God did not create homosexual men, Satan did.




wow.... :confused0054:

habsheaven
05-16-2012, 07:13 PM
wow.... :confused0054:

I know. I always heard of Satan. I never realized that christians actually believe He exists or that He actually has just as much power as the Almighty One.

theonedru
05-16-2012, 07:20 PM
Don't even know what that means.



The flaw in your statement is simple. God created man. Man was perfect. God gave man a woman for companionship. God's plan was man and woman. Satan defiled man. Man became a flawed sinner. God did not create homosexual men, Satan did.

You said that not accepting homosexuals is against the teachings of Jesus. Still waiting on you to back that up.

And the flaw in your statement is that Satan is nothing but a fallen angel, he has no powers to create anything, if he did than any angel could do so. Only God has that power,

duane1969
05-16-2012, 10:28 PM
And the flaw in your statement is that Satan is nothing but a fallen angel, he has no powers to create anything, if he did than any angel could do so. Only God has that power,

OK, not really feeling like wasting anymore time with this. You made a statement that I challenged you to back up and you have not even come close to doing that. Then you attack everything I say with convoluted erroneous statements that are as factless and baseless as your original statement that you never backed up.

Back up your original statement that what Jesus taught is not followed by the majority of Christians. If you can't even do that then me wasting my time proving all of your other statements equally wrong is just a waste of my time.

theonedru
05-16-2012, 10:47 PM
OK, not really feeling like wasting anymore time with this. You made a statement that I challenged you to back up and you have not even come close to doing that. Then you attack everything I say with convoluted erroneous statements that are as factless and baseless as your original statement that you never backed up.

Back up your original statement that what Jesus taught is not followed by the majority of Christians. If you can't even do that then me wasting my time proving all of your other statements equally wrong is just a waste of my time.


Just read the bible. its all there, then we wont have this rabble rousing........ And my statement about Satan was not in error, it makes perfect sense that unless God gave him magical powers to create things then he has no special powers that of any other angel. I am sorry if you do not see the logic in that

JustAlex
05-16-2012, 11:59 PM
Gays are not minorities. Sorry. If gays are minorities then so are left-handed people, redheads and people with webbed feet. Simply being a member of a group of people that represents a small portion of the population does not immediately qualify you for the term "minority". You may be a minority in terms of population, but you are not a minority in the legal sense.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME???

I'm really holding myself from going off and saying a lot of bad words here, but this is ridiculous.

"A minority is a sociological category within a demographic. Rather than a relational social group, as the term would indicate, the term refers to a category that is differentiated and defined by the social majority, that is, those who hold the majority of positions of social power in a society. The differentiation can be based on one or more observable human characteristics, including, for example, ethnicity, race, gender, wealth or sexual orientation."


Please stop making ridiculous statements like this!


The flaw in your statement is simple. God created man. Man was perfect. God gave man a woman for companionship. God's plan was man and woman. Satan defiled man. Man became a flawed sinner. God did not create homosexual men, Satan did.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

And there it is, Christian Logic....you gotta love it!

This is why America is in the shape it is, when people believe that demons and the devil exist and they are making people do things against God.

Your statement is NULL and VOID and has no place in a serious discussion!

boba
05-17-2012, 12:16 AM
ARE YOU KIDDING ME???

I'm really holding myself from going off and saying a lot of bad words here, but this is ridiculous.

"A minority is a sociological category within a demographic. Rather than a relational social group, as the term would indicate, the term refers to a category that is differentiated and defined by the social majority, that is, those who hold the majority of positions of social power in a society. The differentiation can be based on one or more observable human characteristics, including, for example, ethnicity, race, gender, wealth or sexual orientation."


Please stop making ridiculous statements like this!



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

And there it is, Christian Logic....you gotta love it!

This is why America is in the shape it is, when people believe that demons and the devil exist and they are making people do things against God.

Your statement is NULL and VOID and has no place in a serious discussion!

Just want to warn you that if you continue to degrade respected members on this site like you are you will never earn any respect from any of the members here. If you have an argument try to state it without degrading people as it makes it look as if you don't have any valid arguments so you have to degrade.

Btw, looking forward to your bowman jumbo box break.

JustAlex
05-17-2012, 12:27 AM
Just want to warn you that if you continue to degrade respected members on this site like you are you will never earn any respect from any of the members here. If you have an argument try to state it without degrading people as it makes it look as if you don't have any valid arguments so you have to degrade.

Btw, looking forward to your bowman jumbo box break.

"degrade"?

He's saying that Gays are NOT a minority when everyone KNOWS they are!

Then he uses his religion to say that the Devil created homosexuals, in other words, Gays are a product of EVIL and are therefore EVIL themselves!


What do you want me to do?

That was more insulting than anything I did!

Or do you ALSO believe that Homosexuals were created by the devil and are EVIL!

What if I were a Homosexual, I would feel like this site (or at least some of it's members) are actively hostile towards me.

thrashers2005
05-17-2012, 12:33 AM
ARE YOU KIDDING ME???

I'm really holding myself from going off and saying a lot of bad words here, but this is ridiculous.

"A minority is a sociological category within a demographic. Rather than a relational social group, as the term would indicate, the term refers to a category that is differentiated and defined by the social majority, that is, those who hold the majority of positions of social power in a society. The differentiation can be based on one or more observable human characteristics, including, for example, ethnicity, race, gender, wealth or sexual orientation."


Please stop making ridiculous statements like this!



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

And there it is, Christian Logic....you gotta love it!

This is why America is in the shape it is, when people believe that demons and the devil exist and they are making people do things against God.

Your statement is NULL and VOID and has no place in a serious discussion!



this is not christian logic....but its what the christian religon is....therefore its what christians believe in...but to attack it as if its someone's opinion rather than somone's belief is not right....i dont care what religion you are apart of!

JustAlex
05-17-2012, 12:39 AM
this is not christian logic....but its what the christian religon is....therefore its what christians believe in...but to attack it as if its someone's opinion rather than somone's belief is not right....i dont care what religion you are apart of!

It's NOT RIGHT!

To believe that members of OUR society were created by the devil and then say "that's what my religion has taught me".....I don't care what your religion has taught you, that type of thinking is wrong and DANGEROUS!

Imagine If I started saying that people with Red Hair were created by the devil and therefore they are EVIL!

Do you think that's right?

Do you think that should be tolerated just because I later say "that's what my religion says"?

NO, it's NOT right and I personally will not sit quietly!

I didn't attack Him....I attacked his comments and his OPINION, at the end of the day that is still an opinion....a very dangerous opinion at that!

thrashers2005
05-17-2012, 12:39 AM
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NIV): "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters, nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."


I guess this is just "Christian Logic" too?

thrashers2005
05-17-2012, 12:43 AM
It's NOT RIGHT!

To believe that members of OUR society were created by the devil and then say "that's what my religion has taught me".....I don't care what your religion has taught you, that type of thinking is wrong and DANGEROUS!

Imagine If I started saying that people with Red Hair were created by the devil and therefore they are EVIL!

Do you think that's right?

Do you think that should be tolerated just because I later say "that's what my religion says"?

NO, it's NOT right and I personally will not sit quietly!


Because a person with red hair is not a lifestyle decison that you made knowingly against the word of God....just like doing drugs or commiting adultry....all sins are the same in the eyes of God....but comparing to someone with red hair is not a comparison at all!!! When you make changes to your lifestyle and decide to do things that sinful....its a choice that YOU made!

JustAlex
05-17-2012, 12:50 AM
Because a person with red hair is not a lifestyle decison that you made knowingly against the word of God....just like doing drugs or commiting adultry....all sins are the same in the eyes of God....but comparing to someone with red hair is not a comparison at all!!! When you make changes to your lifestyle and decide to do things that sinful....its a choice that YOU made!

Homosexuals DID NOT choose to be gay.

That is what they were talking about, whether or not Homosexuals were BORN gay.

And Duane said that Homosexuals were CREATED by the Devil.

Where in the bible does is say that???

That's HIS opinion and it should not be tolerated.

thrashers2005
05-17-2012, 12:53 AM
so how can you tell me that someone is born gay? so because my dad was an alcoholic....he was born that way?

pghin08
05-17-2012, 12:56 AM
so how can you tell me that someone is born gay? so because my dad was an alcoholic....he was born that way?

I feel like I was born straight, so I'm not sure why it's impossible that someone could be born gay.

theonedru
05-17-2012, 01:00 AM
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NIV): "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters, nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."


I guess this is just "Christian Logic" too?

So basically everyone on earth is going to hell, nice to know... And makes zero sense.

theonedru
05-17-2012, 01:08 AM
I feel like I was born straight, so I'm not sure why it's impossible that someone could be born gay.

Would it not make common sense that if you were to choose your sex you would first have to try homosexuality to see if you liked it or not. And then by doing that would that not make the person just Bi with a preference for women? Since no one can logically answer this I would have to agree with your view.

JustAlex
05-17-2012, 01:23 AM
Would it not make common sense that if you were to choose your sex you would first have to try homosexuality to see if you liked it or not. And then by doing that would that not make the person just Bi with a preference for women? Since no one can logically answer this I would have to agree with your view.
I could go further...

If homosexuality AND heterosexuality were really a choice, then I think high school would've been one huge orgy party.

Think about it, most males enter puberty at about 13 or 14 years old.

If it's really a choice then I would look at guys the same way I look at girls.

I would get stimulated by both and then I would have to "decide" which I prefer.

And how exactly would I be able to decide?

Well, I would obviously have to engage them, maybe by physical contact such as touching or kissing or even sexual contact.


The notion that we "choose" is utterly ridiculous!

I NEVER had a choice, slowly but surely my body told me that I was attracted to girls, and once I entered puberty it was 100% confirmed, my full attention was on girls, it was the only thing I could think about.

I wanted to talk to girls, date them, and of course do sexual things with them.

All of this was natural and I firmly believe that homosexuals go through the same process, except they are attracted to the same sex.

themanishere
05-17-2012, 02:09 AM
I think there's some legitimacy in saying that when people are born, they are biologically inclined toward heterosexuality for obvious reasons. Our physiology essentially places that disposition unto us.

The evolution of gender roles in society has really muddled the concept of choice in regards to sexuality, as well as how one's orientation is developed (I also believe it has affected views of transgendered individuals). The very state of being bisexual could be an argument that homosexual preferences are a choice. I think this contributes to the controversy of exclusive homosexuality as such.

shrewsbury
05-17-2012, 09:17 AM
the devil made homosexuals? now that is crazy, but everyone is entiteld to an opinion, whether i think it is crazy or not.

and just out of curousity what was the church against back in the 300-400's AD?

hum, lets see;
the sexually immoral, idolaters,adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexual offenders, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, slanderers, swindlers

sound familiar?

and homosexuals are not born homosexuals it is a choice and not an evil choice just one that is different than mine

Jazzer540
05-17-2012, 11:11 AM
Not to put my 2 cents in on EVERYTHING that was talked about here... but just curious...
For everyone who supports and doesn't support gay marriage.... Aren't you glad that your Dad wasn't gay?? or else you wouldn't have been here to write all this... just saying... I am glad my Dad liked chicks! Ha

Star_Cards
05-18-2012, 12:13 PM
so how can you tell me that someone is born gay? so because my dad was an alcoholic....he was born that way?

I am straight without making that decision so I feel that gays and bisexuals are that way as well.

Star_Cards
05-18-2012, 12:20 PM
the devil made homosexuals? now that is crazy, but everyone is entiteld to an opinion, whether i think it is crazy or not.

and just out of curousity what was the church against back in the 300-400's AD?

hum, lets see;
the sexually immoral, idolaters,adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexual offenders, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, slanderers, swindlers

sound familiar?

and homosexuals are not born homosexuals it is a choice and not an evil choice just one that is different than mine

I still don't see how one can look at their own experience with personal sexuality and legitimately say that it was a conscious choice to choose to be attracted to a certain sex or even a certain type or certain attributes of a certain person. I think that people learn who they what they are attracted to as they mature as sexual beings but they have little input about what they find sexually attractive. Think about what physical attributes you are attracted to in a female. For me it's very instinctual and not a conscious decision that I make at the time or ahead of time. I don't really make a choice if a female is attractive. She just usually is or isn't.

themanishere
05-18-2012, 03:15 PM
I still don't see how one can look at their own experience with personal sexuality and legitimately say that it was a conscious choice to choose to be attracted to a certain sex or even a certain type or certain attributes of a certain person. I think that people learn who they what they are attracted to as they mature as sexual beings but they have little input about what they find sexually attractive. Think about what physical attributes you are attracted to in a female. For me it's very instinctual and not a conscious decision that I make at the time or ahead of time. I don't really make a choice if a female is attractive. She just usually is or isn't.

I think there's a false dichotomy between "choice" and "being born that way" in a sense. It's not so much choice as it is how we develop and what we experience, as you mention. It's not that we grow up and say "yes, I'm straight" but it's more so that our experiences kind of confirm our sexuality.

I think the concept of bisexuality is an interesting point though, because I don't think it happens simultaneously where a person figures out he/she is attracted to both sexes. In that sense, it could be somewhat of a choice to "experiment" or experience things that could confirm one's bisexual preferences.

shrewsbury
05-19-2012, 12:48 PM
being born with the desire to procreate would fulfill the requirements of evolution

with age we can change many things with our choices including the need to procreate

the chemical responses for attraction are documented in science but, in my opinion, they cannot be totally correct.

being pansexual is you CHOOSE your partner by the person and not the sex, this seems way more logical than saying you are born without the choice and if you were born without this choice it is not abnormal

habsheaven
05-19-2012, 01:06 PM
being born with the desire to procreate would fulfill the requirements of evolution

with age we can change many things with our choices including the need to procreate

the chemical responses for attraction are documented in science but, in my opinion, they cannot be totally correct.

being pansexual is you CHOOSE your partner by the person and not the sex, this seems way more logical than saying you are born without the choice and if you were born without this choice it is not abnormal

It is the contention of many, myself included, that some people are born attracted to the opposite sex, the same sex, or both sexes. A pansexual person would be born attracted to both. Just because they have the ability to choose does not mean you or I have that ability too. Or that a gay individual has the ability to choose.

I will never understand how someone who is not gay can have the audacity to argue with a gay person over why they are gay. They just don't have a leg to stand on in the arguement. They are completely ignorant to the perspective of the gay person.

shrewsbury
05-19-2012, 06:43 PM
but yet you have nothing else to offer but an opinion and all gay people don't have the same opinion.

you can supply nothing but opinions but say that if someone else does they are stupid

habsheaven
05-19-2012, 09:05 PM
but yet you have nothing else to offer but an opinion and all gay people don't have the same opinion.

you can supply nothing but opinions but say that if someone else does they are stupid

I have never called anyone on here stupid. And I have more than just OPINION to offer, but I won't bother repeating my personal involvement in the subject matter. I consider what everyone that labels themselves GAY has to say and base my opinion on that. YOU conveniently brush aside what some actual GAY people say because it disagrees with your opinion.

shrewsbury
05-19-2012, 11:04 PM
actually i listen to everyone,


They are completely ignorant to the perspective of the gay person.

so unless all homosexuals are exactly the same i would have to disagree with you.

if someone wants to say they have no choice they were born that way, i say that is no business of mine.

but if i state my opinion i am not sensitive to someone else's opinion?

if someone has a different opinion that is fine, we are not argueing lunar effects on tides, we are talking about an opinion that neither side can prove they are right.

my saying being a homosexual is a choice is not that big of a deal. i honor peoples choices as long as it doesn't hurt others, and there is nothing wrong with being gay.
i will be spending the upcoming holiday weekend with several gay couples and none of us will be fighting over this.

habsheaven
05-19-2012, 11:53 PM
actually i listen to everyone,



so unless all homosexuals are exactly the same i would have to disagree with you.

if someone wants to say they have no choice they were born that way, i say that is no business of mine.

but if i state my opinion i am not sensitive to someone else's opinion?

if someone has a different opinion that is fine, we are not argueing lunar effects on tides, we are talking about an opinion that neither side can prove they are right.

my saying being a homosexual is a choice is not that big of a deal. i honor peoples choices as long as it doesn't hurt others, and there is nothing wrong with being gay.
i will be spending the upcoming holiday weekend with several gay couples and none of us will be fighting over this.

Okay, if you listen to everyone and still believe no one is born gay, you obviously believe that these gay people saying they were born that way are wrong. You cannot see the arrogance in that position? A straight man telling gay people he KNOWS more about their particular situation than they do. No, it is not that big a deal for the STRAIGHT guy. I have a feeling that the gay person being told who they actually are would see it differently.

hawk2618
05-20-2012, 12:11 AM
I have never once heard or read a gay person saying "they were born that way"but then again,I don't set aside time reading about that topic 24/7.Just isn't my cup of tea.I do however read about headlines about people coming out stating their preferences and wanting to learn about their story on how this happened.
I have read a few reports of individuals saying once they had their first experience with the same sex,they knew they were gay,even after having children and years passing by.I never liked spinach as a kid...but 35 years later I tried it and liked it.I wonder if I was born
liking spinach or I just made the choice to try it and liked eating it.Strange how life works!
~~Dave C.

habsheaven
05-20-2012, 12:15 AM
I have never once heard or read a gay person saying "they were born that way"but then again,I don't set aside time reading about that topic 24/7.Just isn't my cup of tea.I do however read about headlines about people coming out stating their preferences and wanting to learn about their story on how this happened.
I have read a few reports of individuals saying once they had their first experience with the same sex,they knew they were gay,even after having children and years passing by.I never liked spinach as a kid...but 35 years later I tried it and liked it.I wonder if I was born
liking spinach or I just made the choice to try it and liked eating it.Strange how life works!
~~Dave C.

That's too bad.

JustAlex
05-20-2012, 12:22 AM
I wonder if I was born
liking spinach or I just made the choice to try it and liked eating it.Strange how life works!
~~Dave C.

Ok, I can see how you can make an analogy like that and it makes sense to you.

However, liking foods has nothing to do with biology and genes.

This is so simple...

Just ask yourself one question....Did I choose to be straight?

I can guarantee you that the majority of straight people will say NO!

Why will they say No?

Because it's nonsense to believe that at any point after puberty we could actually control our bodily desires.

I could look at gay porn for 24 hours straight and not feel any attraction one bit!

However, if this really was a "Choice" then maybe I could change my preference.

Sorry....it doesn't work that way, I'm straight no matter what, that's how I was born.

hawk2618
05-20-2012, 12:57 AM
I still say its an experience that happens that starts it,whether it is voluntarily done or forced.I once read an article where a poll was taken on children raised by
straight parents and same sex parents.Chidren were gay 10% of the time by the straight parents,yet the children raised by the same sex parents became gay 40% of the time.Is it just a coincidence or did the same sex parents just happen to get the higher percentage of kids who were born gay? Those are stats that just doesn't add up to me supporting the born gay theory.

habsheaven
05-20-2012, 08:13 AM
I still say its an experience that happens that starts it,whether it is voluntarily done or forced.I once read an article where a poll was taken on children raised by
straight parents and same sex parents.Chidren were gay 10% of the time by the straight parents,yet the children raised by the same sex parents became gay 40% of the time.Is it just a coincidence or did the same sex parents just happen to get the higher percentage of kids who were born gay? Those are stats that just doesn't add up to me supporting the born gay theory.

Once again, people against homosexuality are picking and choosing the data that supports their opinion and ignoring everything else that is out there.

Your "poll" numbers make no sense. Even the 10% is way too high.

MadMan1978
05-20-2012, 09:33 AM
I have plenty of gay friends but I do not support gay marriage. I support their legal union but not marriage..if it makes sense...my friends know my stance on it and they are fine with it. That is his way of thinking, he is entitled to his opinion.

Legal union vs Marriage ?

is their really a difference?

MadMan1978
05-20-2012, 09:36 AM
but you are talking man and woman, not same sex

redefining the roles of what a man and woman are are a huge factor with gay marriage


Redefine what roles?

hawk2618
05-20-2012, 01:03 PM
Whether they make sense or not habs,I didn't make up the percentages.Here's the article and I actually was off on the percentages.It was much worse than I had mentioned.By the way...I don't necessarily pick or choose data that supports my belief.I go by what makes sense to me.If nurturing supports my belief in black and white,I can't deny the facts.

The question of nature vs. nurture can also be seen by examining children of homosexual vs. heterosexual parents. If homosexuality were purely biological, one would expect that parenting would not influence it. Paul Cameron published a study in 2006 that claimed that the children of homosexual parents expressed a homosexual orientation much more frequently than the general population.39 Although claims of bias were made against the study, another study by Walter Schuum in 2010 confirmed Cameron's results by statistically examining the results of 10 other studies that addressed the question.40 In total, 262 children raised by homosexual parents were included in the analysis. The results showed that 16-57% of such children adopted a homosexual lifestyle. The results were even more striking in daughters of lesbian mothers, 33% to 57% of whom became lesbians themselves. Since homosexuals makeup only ~5% of the population, it is clear that parenting does influence sexual orientation.

AUTaxMan
05-20-2012, 01:20 PM
Legal union vs Marriage ?

is their really a difference?

You cannot possibly not understand the difference if you are taking the issue seriously.

habsheaven
05-20-2012, 02:13 PM
Whether they make sense or not habs,I didn't make up the percentages.Here's the article and I actually was off on the percentages.It was much worse than I had mentioned.By the way...I don't necessarily pick or choose data that supports my belief.I go by what makes sense to me.If nurturing supports my belief in black and white,I can't deny the facts.

The question of nature vs. nurture can also be seen by examining children of homosexual vs. heterosexual parents. If homosexuality were purely biological, one would expect that parenting would not influence it. Paul Cameron published a study in 2006 that claimed that the children of homosexual parents expressed a homosexual orientation much more frequently than the general population.39 Although claims of bias were made against the study, another study by Walter Schuum in 2010 confirmed Cameron's results by statistically examining the results of 10 other studies that addressed the question.40 In total, 262 children raised by homosexual parents were included in the analysis. The results showed that 16-57% of such children adopted a homosexual lifestyle. The results were even more striking in daughters of lesbian mothers, 33% to 57% of whom became lesbians themselves. Since homosexuals makeup only ~5% of the population, it is clear that parenting does influence sexual orientation.


That whole bolded section, again, makes no sense. What does a range of 16-57% represent? or 33-57%? That's an awfully big range.

And you clearly ARE picking and choosing the data that best represents your opinion. There are countless first-hand testamonials of gay people saying they were born gay. How does your opinion that is a choice reconcile to these people's testamonials?

shrewsbury
05-20-2012, 03:11 PM
why are people who say you are not born gay it is a choice, flagged as anti-gay?

hawk2618
05-20-2012, 03:42 PM
I like to label this in the category of "tendencies".Everyone has had a tendency to do something they were'nt sure of.Should I do this?? should I not?? Is this right or is this wrong??I can't tell you how many times I've done something and said "WOW...was that the wrong decision".Just because something happens and even if one enjoys it doesn't necessarily mean its the right thing,even if it feels right.Being right and feeling right are two different things.I've seen testamonials backing both sides.I just happen to believe the ones that back the theory I believe in.
~~Dave C.

shrewsbury
05-20-2012, 05:34 PM
good post!

habsheaven
05-20-2012, 07:00 PM
I like to label this in the category of "tendencies".Everyone has had a tendency to do something they were'nt sure of.Should I do this?? should I not?? Is this right or is this wrong??I can't tell you how many times I've done something and said "WOW...was that the wrong decision".Just because something happens and even if one enjoys it doesn't necessarily mean its the right thing,even if it feels right.Being right and feeling right are two different things.I've seen testamonials backing both sides.I just happen to believe the ones that back the theory I believe in.
~~Dave C.

Huh? So people that say they were born gay are lying? Or don't know their own bodies as well as you? Which is it? It has to be one or the other.

Logic would suggest that if some people say they are born gay and some people say they chose to be gay. Then the truth is a combination of both, not one or the other.

JustAlex
05-20-2012, 07:41 PM
I like to label this in the category of "tendencies".Everyone has had a tendency to do something they were'nt sure of.Should I do this?? should I not?? Is this right or is this wrong??I can't tell you how many times I've done something and said "WOW...was that the wrong decision".Just because something happens and even if one enjoys it doesn't necessarily mean its the right thing,even if it feels right.Being right and feeling right are two different things.I've seen testamonials backing both sides.I just happen to believe the ones that back the theory I believe in.
~~Dave C.

Yeah, I can somewhat agree with your statement, but I don't think it applies for homosexuals.

First of all, if any homosexual is thinking about whether or not what he is doing is "wrong" that's only because society has told him that it's wrong (mostly by religious society).

Secondly, he is following his bodily desires, just like straight people follow their bodily desires.

Sure, when we turn 13 or 14 years old, we are ABLE to have sex, but should we?

Probably not....because we're too young, or because we're not ready for the consequences.

Lastly, every psychological association has already said that there is nothing "wrong" with being gay.

It's NOT a disease, it's NOT a psychological disorder, and the majority of psychologists have said it's NOT a choice.

It wasn't too long that right here in America, the majority thought that homosexuality was a "disorder"....now we know it's not.

shrewsbury
05-20-2012, 07:43 PM
i really hope you don't think i am trying to provoke anything.

how can one know their own body and know it was born gay?

it may be some are born that way and some make the choice, but just like you choose not to believe in god, i choose to, one of us is right and the other wrong, but as long is there is no malice in our intent, it should not matter.

discussions like this and others on here only make me understand why i choose what to believe in stronger.

i can respect you believe some or all are born homosexual, but i yet to here, read, or see anything that makes me think it is no more than a choice. and i have no issue with the choice, it is none of my business.

pspstatus
05-20-2012, 08:40 PM
i really hope you don't think i am trying to provoke anything.

how can one know their own body and know it was born gay?

it may be some are born that way and some make the choice, but just like you choose not to believe in god, i choose to, one of us is right and the other wrong, but as long is there is no malice in our intent, it should not matter.

discussions like this and others on here only make me understand why i choose what to believe in stronger.

i can respect you believe some or all are born homosexual, but i yet to here, read, or see anything that makes me think it is no more than a choice. and i have no issue with the choice, it is none of my business.


If you had an opportunity to vote on gay marriage would you? What would your vote be?

habsheaven
05-20-2012, 08:44 PM
i really hope you don't think i am trying to provoke anything.

how can one know their own body and know it was born gay?

it may be some are born that way and some make the choice, but just like you choose not to believe in god, i choose to, one of us is right and the other wrong, but as long is there is no malice in our intent, it should not matter.

discussions like this and others on here only make me understand why i choose what to believe in stronger.

i can respect you believe some or all are born homosexual, but i yet to here, read, or see anything that makes me think it is no more than a choice. and i have no issue with the choice, it is none of my business.

Closed minds are a wonderful thing. Especially when they aren't hurting anyone.

themanishere
05-20-2012, 10:00 PM
It wasn't too long that right here in America, the majority thought that homosexuality was a "disorder"....now we know it's not.

Then who's to say we won't discover something else about this issue that presents a change to the way we think about it or what's behind it all? Society, science and thought are always finding and embracing something new, changing the way we see things.

I'm speaking more to the evolution of thought - not particularly making an implication to the topic at hand. I just think there's a sense that, for people of a generation at a given time, they feel they have the ultimate perceptions of the world. And sure, maybe we do for the time we live in, but who knows if today's truths will be the same down the road, ya know? Very few things remain absolute in our world.

hawk2618
05-20-2012, 10:01 PM
Huh? So people that say they were born gay are lying? Or don't know their own bodies as well as you? Which is it? It has to be one or the other.

Logic would suggest that if some people say they are born gay and some people say they chose to be gay. Then the truth is a combination of both, not one or the other.


To be very honest...I would have to say yes in some instances.Many truly believe they were born that way,but then again, many aren't sure.
I would anticipate that a number of people who are gay would do anything to make their behavior acceptable in todays society.
"Being born this way"would be a plausable reason for them to use,seeing
that it works for others,why not them.

JustAlex
05-20-2012, 10:14 PM
OK, I want to bring up a question that hopefully will make people think...

I'm assuming most of us are grown Adult men.

And as such, we have all probably watched lesbian porn at some time in our life.

Is it hypocritical to take enjoyment out of that lifestyle and then say that what they do is wrong?

Now, before someone starts to tell me they are just "acting" and they are not real lesbians, please consider the question carefully.

I'm not talking about whether or not it's a choice to be gay, I'm talking about the act itself.

Heck, Let's say (for argument's sake) that it IS a choice.....so what?

Is it not hypocritical to watch/fantasize about lesbians in private but then in public we say what they do is not "normal" and thus they can't marry?

shrewsbury
05-20-2012, 11:31 PM
just because someone is not for gay marriage does not mean they are against homosexuality.

if i had to vote right now, i guess i would have to see the definition of what marriage meant in that situation. I also guess if all it meant was two people who loved eachother were pledging their love for eachother, i guess i would vote yes. but i still don't personally agree with it.

pspstatus
05-21-2012, 12:52 AM
just because someone is not for gay marriage does not mean they are against homosexuality.

if i had to vote right now, i guess i would have to see the definition of what marriage meant in that situation. I also guess if all it meant was two people who loved eachother were pledging their love for eachother, i guess i would vote yes. but i still don't personally agree with it.


This is why I like you so much. Rationality.

duane1969
05-21-2012, 12:16 PM
Yeah, I can somewhat agree with your statement, but I don't think it applies for homosexuals.

First of all, if any homosexual is thinking about whether or not what he is doing is "wrong" that's only because society has told him that it's wrong (mostly by religious society).



Just asking. Do you think that in a society free of all religious restrictions that people would just naturally be gay and open about it? You don't think that any naturally occuring aversion to abnormal physical pairing would occur.

And before anybody jumps on the word "abnormal" I am speaking about the physcial aspects as in, boy parts are made for use with girl parts for procreation.

habsheaven
05-21-2012, 12:37 PM
Just asking. Do you think that in a society free of all religious restrictions that people would just naturally be gay and open about it? You don't think that any naturally occuring aversion to abnormal physical pairing would occur.

And before anybody jumps on the word "abnormal" I am speaking about the physcial aspects as in, boy parts are made for use with girl parts for procreation.

Being gay would still be viewed as different from the mainstream and because of that would be viewed negatively by some.

Star_Cards
05-21-2012, 01:55 PM
OK, I want to bring up a question that hopefully will make people think...

I'm assuming most of us are grown Adult men.

And as such, we have all probably watched lesbian porn at some time in our life.

Is it hypocritical to take enjoyment out of that lifestyle and then say that what they do is wrong?

Now, before someone starts to tell me they are just "acting" and they are not real lesbians, please consider the question carefully.

I'm not talking about whether or not it's a choice to be gay, I'm talking about the act itself.

Heck, Let's say (for argument's sake) that it IS a choice.....so what?

Is it not hypocritical to watch/fantasize about lesbians in private but then in public we say what they do is not "normal" and thus they can't marry?

I'm always amazed by people that I've seen that have said very hateful things about male homosexuals and being "against" it and yet say it's perfectly fine for women. It's hilariously hypocritical.

duane1969
05-21-2012, 02:31 PM
Being gay would still be viewed as different from the mainstream and because of that would be viewed negatively by some.

That is my thinking as well. Religion or not, different is different. If most people are heterosexual and reproducing and some are homosexual and not reproducing there will still be a level of non-acceptance. I don't see that someone thinging that their homosexual feelings are wrong as being only because of what society or religion says.

duwal
05-21-2012, 03:27 PM
Just asking. Do you think that in a society free of all religious restrictions that people would just naturally be gay and open about it? You don't think that any naturally occuring aversion to abnormal physical pairing would occur.

And before anybody jumps on the word "abnormal" I am speaking about the physcial aspects as in, boy parts are made for use with girl parts for procreation.


then would others also think its abnormal for a heterosexual married couple that do not have any desire to have a child?

shrewsbury
05-21-2012, 05:01 PM
then would others also think its abnormal for a heterosexual married couple that do not have any desire to have a child?

i would not think they were freaks, or had an illness, but i would think it is kind of strange.

in fact i have two good friends who are both married and plan on not having any kids, kind of weird to me.

hawk2618
05-21-2012, 07:23 PM
Shrew,I don't think its weird at all.Seeing the way the world is now,I wouldn't blame a couple for 1 second to not plan on having kids.I also believe there are parents out there that really shouldn't be parents.We have children out there having children with no leg to stand on and who supports them besides their parents?? It is extremely disturbing to see this going on at an alarming rate.
~~Dave C.

duane1969
05-21-2012, 08:21 PM
then would others also think its abnormal for a heterosexual married couple that do not have any desire to have a child?

The person I was addressing essentially stated that religion is the reason that people do not accept homosexuality. I was asking if he thinks the absence of religion would make it more socially acceptable for two people of the same gender to have sex.

Not sure how what you asked is relevant. A hetero couple not wanting to have children does not equate to having sexual relations with a person of the same sex. The lack of desire to procreate does not validate homosexuality.

shrewsbury
05-21-2012, 09:32 PM
Shrew,I don't think its weird at all.Seeing the way the world is now,I wouldn't blame a couple for 1 second to not plan on having kids.I also believe there are parents out there that really shouldn't be parents.We have children out there having children with no leg to stand on and who supports them besides their parents?? It is extremely disturbing to see this going on at an alarming rate.

I agree. I guess for me i knew i was going to have kids before i was married and it was a big part of the reason for my marriage, so sometimes my blinders get in the way.

duwal
05-21-2012, 11:26 PM
i would not think they were freaks, or had an illness, but i would think it is kind of strange.

in fact i have two good friends who are both married and plan on not having any kids, kind of weird to me.


to each their own, I just know that for me I absolutely do not want to have and raise kids in my life. I'm great with kids but especially with seeing my parents divorced and remarried I've seen the separation in quality of life between those that are married with no kids and freedom versus those that are married and somewhat limited. I've worked my butt off going through college and law school and finally being able to have a salary in the 7 figures, I'd love to find my girl and be married, but I don't see myself wanting my life to be kind of slowed down to take my kid to school or soccer games or private school tuition or whatever when I could be with my girl and going on tropical vacations.

But like I said to each their own, some people want to flood their photo albums and Facebook with pictures of their kid in their little league uniform or at Six Flags, I'd rather have pics of us in Cabo San Lucas or Palm Island, St Vincent & Grenadines, & Bora Bora, Tahiti, etc.

AUTaxMan
05-22-2012, 12:27 AM
kids are more fun than anything. dont know what youre missing.

shrewsbury
05-22-2012, 09:43 AM
and sometimes you change your mind when you meet the right partner

duwal
05-22-2012, 03:17 PM
kids are more fun than anything. dont know what youre missing.


yeah not sure about that but I'll settle for playing around with my friends' kids and seeing the world in my own life. I've heard a lot of frustration coming from parents of kids, especially when they get into they start getting into the teen years

AUTaxMan
05-22-2012, 03:37 PM
yeah not sure about that but I'll settle for playing around with my friends' kids and seeing the world in my own life. I've heard a lot of frustration coming from parents of kids, especially when they get into they start getting into the teen years

sure it's frustrating at times, but it's totally worth it. you cannot truly appreciate it until you've experienced it.

shrewsbury
05-22-2012, 07:06 PM
[QUOTE]yeah not sure about that but I'll settle for playing around with my friends' kids and seeing the world in my own life[QUOTE]

nothing wrong with that

GiantsSB42Champs
05-22-2012, 07:13 PM
Why does it matter who someone else wants to marry that's the real question?

Anti-Gay marriage advocates can you explain that??

shrewsbury
05-22-2012, 09:47 PM
what if they are not anti-homosexual, but pro-heterosexual?

mrveggieman
05-23-2012, 09:45 AM
what if they are not anti-homosexual, but pro-heterosexual?


You can be pro hetrosexual all day. I have no problem with that. But as soon as you want to take rights away from gays you become anti-homosexual.

shrewsbury
05-23-2012, 09:54 AM
what rights are being taken away? it sounds more like they want rights that others have just because of their sexual oreintation

mrveggieman
05-23-2012, 10:09 AM
what rights are being taken away? it sounds more like they want rights that others have just because of their sexual oreintation


Not having rights that others have is how discrimination works.

shrewsbury
05-23-2012, 10:39 AM
so me being a male and subject to draft is ok for me but not for females? where are the "rights" advocates for this?

people only want equal rights when it benefits them

mrveggieman
05-23-2012, 11:13 AM
so me being a male and subject to draft is ok for me but not for females? where are the "rights" advocates for this?

people only want equal rights when it benefits them


I don't like the draft system either but that is a whole other can of worms.....

shrewsbury
05-23-2012, 11:17 AM
i am personally against gay marriage but could care less if it was legal.

the issue is there are so many more important things in the crapper that need fixing first, that broken leg won't matter if the bleeding from your neck isn't stopped first.

duane1969
05-23-2012, 11:19 AM
Not having rights that others have is how discrimination works.

First, glad to see you are back.

Second, what rights do others have that gays do not?

mrveggieman
05-23-2012, 11:48 AM
First, glad to see you are back.

Second, what rights do others have that gays do not?


I don't know let's start with the right to marry another consenting adult without gov't interference.

duane1969
05-23-2012, 12:29 PM
I don't know let's start with the right to marry another consenting adult without gov't interference.

There is no such thing as the right to marry. There is no Constitutionally protected right to marry, no Constitutional Amendment for the right to marry, no Federal law guaranteeing a right to marry and no state law providing for the right to marry.

Star_Cards
05-23-2012, 12:36 PM
There is no such thing as the right to marry. There is no Constitutionally protected right to marry, no Constitutional Amendment for the right to marry, no Federal law guaranteeing a right to marry and no state law providing for the right to marry.

I have no clue if it's defined as a right or not. don't really want to play a game of semantics, but when it comes down to it people can marry but there is a restriction on who one can marry based on the sexes of the two marrying.

AUTaxMan
05-23-2012, 01:27 PM
I have no clue if it's defined as a right or not. don't really want to play a game of semantics, but when it comes down to it people can marry but there is a restriction on who one can marry based on the sexes of the two marrying.

Because marriage is definitionally exclusive to being a union of one man and one woman. If you want to have civil unions for people regardless of sexual orientation, you can no longer call it marriage. It's something legally similar, but it isn't marriage.

tpeichel
05-23-2012, 01:37 PM
Because marriage is definitionally exclusive to being a union of one man and one woman. If you want to have civil unions for people regardless of sexual orientation, you can no longer call it marriage. It's something legally similar, but it isn't marriage.

Once you change the definition of marriage for gay people, then you'll start hearing shouts of discrimination against polygamists. What about their rights? Shouldn't three, four, five or six consenting, loving humans be able to get married? Is the commitment between three to six people any different than the commitment between two people?

duane1969
05-23-2012, 01:45 PM
I have no clue if it's defined as a right or not. don't really want to play a game of semantics, but when it comes down to it people can marry but there is a restriction on who one can marry based on the sexes of the two marrying.

On some level it is semantics, but when I hear (or read) the statement that gays deserve the rights that everyone else has I can't help but point out the flaw. By definition, nobody has the right to marriage. The difference between gays and straights is that straight marriages are legally recognized. So as I have said before, gays are not fighting for the right to marry, they are fighting for their union to be legally recognized.

duane1969
05-23-2012, 01:49 PM
Once you change the definition of marriage for gay people, then you'll start hearing shouts of discrimination against polygamists. What about their rights? Shouldn't three, four, five or six consenting, loving humans be able to get married? Is the commitment between three to six people any different than the commitment between two people?

And the irony of it all? Those who support gay marriage will criticize those who oppose it by saying that their religious beliefs are the only reason and bash religion for opposing it. Then those same people will oppose polygamy without even having any other reason than some ingrained teaching (based in religion) that marriage is to be between two people and not 10 or 40 people.

Star_Cards
05-23-2012, 01:53 PM
Because marriage is definitionally exclusive to being a union of one man and one woman. If you want to have civil unions for people regardless of sexual orientation, you can no longer call it marriage. It's something legally similar, but it isn't marriage.

in my opinion you can adjust the definition to be more open to more progressive views that weren't around when it was originally defined. I don;t really see why people are so protective of that term these days. Marriage has changed so much over the past 30 years and is such a personal thing. There's no right or wrong way for heterosexuals to be married. Each couple gets to define what their marriage is for them. With that in mind I don't comprehend the issue with not allowing same sex marriage within the umbrella of marriage. Marriage, as it is now, in the heterosexual world can take on many different forms. I see nothing wrong will allowing same sex as one of those forms.

for example... One of my couple friends have a traditional marriage got married and had kids, another couple I know planned their child before getting married and then tied the not a year later, another couple chooses not to have kids, another couple has an open marriage sexually. The point is to say that there is a true definition of a marriage is rather shortsighted in my opinion. If there can be so many different versions I see no point in limiting marriage to opposite sexes marrying.

allowing same sex marriage would in no way force certain religions or churches to accept a same sex marriage or even perform them. they currently don't recognize some heterosexual marriages and limit who can get married in their church. it would not change if same sex marriages were legal in the eyes of the state.

JustAlex
05-23-2012, 02:33 PM
And the irony of it all? Those who support gay marriage will criticize those who oppose it by saying that their religious beliefs are the only reason and bash religion for opposing it. Then those same people will oppose polygamy without even having any other reason than some ingrained teaching (based in religion) that marriage is to be between two people and not 10 or 40 people.

That's funny seeing as religion is the one that ENDORSES polygamy including Christianity.

Yes, that's right, "god" had no problems with King Solomon having multiple wives.

And of course let's not forget the Mormons and their crazy beliefs.

Woot.....all hail Prez Mitt (I want to see his birth certificate) Romney!!!

theonedru
05-23-2012, 04:31 PM
And the irony of it all? Those who support gay marriage will criticize those who oppose it by saying that their religious beliefs are the only reason and bash religion for opposing it. Then those same people will oppose polygamy without even having any other reason than some ingrained teaching (based in religion) that marriage is to be between two people and not 10 or 40 people.

I always wondered why people are so anti-polygamy, it's not for me but as long as they are all legal and willing go have fun with it. It would be interesting to see how it would work out in a divorce court.

duane1969
05-23-2012, 06:09 PM
I always wondered why people are so anti-polygamy, it's not for me but as long as they are all legal and willing go have fun with it. It would be interesting to see how it would work out in a divorce court.

I always wondered why a guy would want more than one wife. I love my wife more than anything, but two of her is more than I could handle (and yes, I have told her this LOL).

shrewsbury
05-23-2012, 06:16 PM
i always wondered why a guy would want more than one wife. I love my wife more than anything, but two of her is more than i could handle (and yes, i have told her this lol)

+1

theonedru
05-23-2012, 07:09 PM
I always wondered why a guy would want more than one wife. I love my wife more than anything, but two of her is more than I could handle (and yes, I have told her this LOL).

I can barely deal with 1 wife nagging at me to do stuff around the house, I could not fathom 2, 3 or more doing the same thing I think my head would explode

hawk2618
05-23-2012, 09:07 PM
I doubt God endorsed polygomy.As far as Solomon having multiple wives....what was God supposedly supposed to do???? punish him???? Lets be real here.

JustAlex
05-24-2012, 12:00 AM
I doubt God endorsed polygomy.As far as Solomon having multiple wives....what was God supposedly supposed to do???? punish him???? Lets be real here.

Yes he did!

Solomon was a "man of God" he was one of the biggest characters from the OT.

Why did he need so many wives?

Just because he was King should not put him above "god's law"!

If marriage was really a "religious-sanctity-holy-blah, blah, blah" thing then it would have been a commandment.

"Thou shall marry One man and One woman"

But guess what....it's NOT a commandment and god was perfectly fine with Solomon have multiple wives.

And since the Bible is the "inspired word of God"....he ENDORSED IT!

JustAlex
05-24-2012, 12:02 AM
Oh Yes....let's all worship Marriage as some type of Holy union...

#1 Divorce rate in the U.S = 50%

#2 Adultery is perfectly legal in the U.S....Sorry Ten Commandments, here in the U.S you have NO Jurisdiction :-)

#3 Vegas (Sin City) if famous for it's drive through weddings and completely making a mockery of it by literally having many people marrying and divorcing within one week.


And the list goes on...All hail the sanctity of marriage....what a croc and utterly fail tactic to say marriage is "holy" and should be respected!


The funny thing about all of this is that Gay couples are more likely to stay together and NOT cheat against each other.

Gays respect and honor marriage a lot more than straights....in a Just world Straight marriage would be Illegal!

hawk2618
05-24-2012, 12:14 AM
When you say "endorse"...you're telling me God actually said "I endorse you having 700 wives Solomon...good job?" Show me one line where God says this or anything similiar in black and white.Do you think he was the only man with more than 1 wife?
Many evil things happened back in those times.Just because it happened doesn't mean God said "Its ok"

JustAlex
05-24-2012, 12:32 AM
When you say "endorse"...you're telling me God actually said "I endorse you having 700 wives Solomon...good job?" Show me one line where God says this or anything similiar in black and white.Do you think he was the only man with more than 1 wife?
Many evil things happened back in those times.Just because it happened doesn't mean God said "Its ok"

OK, I'll show why I say that God endorsed it.

First off, many christians say that the Bible is the "inerrant word of God".

Now look at this:

"When you read God's Word, you read about great men of faith, men who lived their lives for God like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Solomon. These men did great things for God and are used as examples of how to live a Godly life. These men were also richly blessed by God. However, they all had one glaring issue that cannot be ignored. They all had multiple wives! This fact often confuses people who are curious how these great men of God could be so blessed but living in blatant rebellion to God in this area of their life. The reality is, they forfeited many of the blessings they should have had because of this sin in their life."

BTW this is from a Christian website:

http://liveprayer.com/ddarchive3.cfm?id=2338

Basically you can see that they are NOT trying to hide the fact that God blessed all these man despite the fact they were committing the sin of "Polygamy".

And I find it a bit funny that they're saying that they should have been blessed even MORE if they simply had not committed polygamy....LOL.

hawk2618
05-24-2012, 01:38 AM
I found this article about Solomon.Although he had Gods blessing.....in his latter life,everything he did was against Gods word.

First Kings 11:1-3 indicates that King Solomon had hundreds of wives and hundreds of concubines, many from lands of which God had previously instructed the Israelites to avoid intermarrying. God knew that such intermarrying would lead to the worship of false gods. Why, then, did Solomon do this?
History reveals that Solomon was very aggressive in his foreign policy. In sealing treaties in ancient days, it was customary for a lesser king to give his daughter in marriage to the greater king (in this case, Solomon). Every time a new treaty was sealed, Solomon ended up with yet another wife. These wives were considered tokens of friendship and "sealed" the relationship between the two kings. It may be that Solomon was not even personally acquainted with some of these wives, even though he was married to them.
In the process of doing all this, Solomon was utterly disobedient to the Lord. He was apparently so obsessed with power and wealth that it overshadowed his spiritual life and he ended up falling into apostasy. He worshipped some of the false gods of the women who became married to him.
Moreover, in marrying more than one woman Solomon was going against God's revealed will regarding monogamy. From the very beginning God created one woman for one man (see Genesis 1:27; 2:21-25). Deuteronomy 17:17 explicitly instructs God's people not to "multiply wives." So Solomon sinned in two ways -- (1) he engaged in polygamy, and (2) he violated God's commandment against marrying pagans, which ultimately led to his own apostasy.

shrewsbury
05-24-2012, 08:38 AM
again you are back to the OT, you should be referring to jews and muslims, not christians.

i have been married for 20+ years, never even crossed my mind to cheat on my wife.


Gays respect and honor marriage a lot more than straights

really, you are so far out there it isn't even funny, where is your stats for this? oh wait, that is your opinion, but what is your opinion based on?

mrveggieman
05-24-2012, 09:20 AM
I can barely deal with 1 wife nagging at me to do stuff around the house, I could not fathom 2, 3 or more doing the same thing I think my head would explode


CHURCH!! :love0030::love0030::love0030::love0030:

Star_Cards
05-24-2012, 01:10 PM
I always wondered why people are so anti-polygamy, it's not for me but as long as they are all legal and willing go have fun with it. It would be interesting to see how it would work out in a divorce court.

I'm actually pro polygamy. If a person can marry one person then they should be able to marry more if that's what they want to do. If three people want to be all married I say let them.

shortking98
05-24-2012, 01:22 PM
As far as Solomon is concerned Deut 17:15-17 clearly states that kings were not to multiply wives and it is stated clearly that Solomon's many foreign wives pulled him away from God. With that said I don't see how allowing gay marriage really takes away from straight marriage.

duane1969
05-24-2012, 01:33 PM
Oh Yes....let's all worship Marriage as some type of Holy union...

#1 Divorce rate in the U.S = 50%

#2 Adultery is perfectly legal in the U.S....Sorry Ten Commandments, here in the U.S you have NO Jurisdiction :-)

#3 Vegas (Sin City) if famous for it's drive through weddings and completely making a mockery of it by literally having many people marrying and divorcing within one week.


And the list goes on...All hail the sanctity of marriage....what a croc and utterly fail tactic to say marriage is "holy" and should be respected!


The funny thing about all of this is that Gay couples are more likely to stay together and NOT cheat against each other.

Gays respect and honor marriage a lot more than straights....in a Just world Straight marriage would be Illegal!

#1 A 50% divorce rate amongst the general population does not mean that marriage deserves no respect.

Using your logic. We already abort 1.5 million babies per year. Let's just kill them all.

#2 And? Would you prefer that adultery were punishable by death? And what does this have to do with gay marriage?

#3 You reference a town nicknamed Sin City as a representation of the values of marriage? Come on. Even you can't be taking yourself seriously.

Please provide some form of documentable proof that gays are more loyal to each other, more likely to stay together and respect marriage more. Quite frankly, I find this concept and your statement to be something of a joke. You argue that there is no sanctity in marriage (50% divorce rate), everybody condones cheating (adultery not illegal) and that marriage is a joke (Sin City reference) and then try to argue that gays value monogamy and marriage.

Star_Cards
05-24-2012, 04:08 PM
Oh Yes....let's all worship Marriage as some type of Holy union...

#1 Divorce rate in the U.S = 50%

#2 Adultery is perfectly legal in the U.S....Sorry Ten Commandments, here in the U.S you have NO Jurisdiction :-)

#3 Vegas (Sin City) if famous for it's drive through weddings and completely making a mockery of it by literally having many people marrying and divorcing within one week.


And the list goes on...All hail the sanctity of marriage....what a croc and utterly fail tactic to say marriage is "holy" and should be respected!


The funny thing about all of this is that Gay couples are more likely to stay together and NOT cheat against each other.

Gays respect and honor marriage a lot more than straights....in a Just world Straight marriage would be Illegal!

I agree with the sentiment that heterosexuals do plenty to soil marriage and it's ironic to say that same sex marriage would soil marriage when all of these other things happen, but I don't know where you can say that gays respect and honor marriage a lot more than straights. also, in a just world, straight marriage wouldn't be illegal. When you are fighting to get the same acceptance of same sex marriage it's rather hypocritical to then say that you think the other side should have that taken away.

JustAlex
05-24-2012, 06:24 PM
OK here are some articles in support that Gay marriages have fared better than straight marriages:

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2011/07/06/divorce-rates-lower-in-states-with-same-sex-marriage

"According to provisional data from the Census Bureau and the Centers for Disease Control's National Vital Statistics System, 5 of the 10 states, plus the District of Columbia, with the lowest divorce rates per thousand people (of the 44 states, plus D.C., that had available data) are also among the nine jurisdictions (a group that includes eight states and the District of Columbia) that currently perform or recognize gay marriages."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-wilson/divorce-rate-in-gay-marri_b_267259.html

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/04/why-do-lesbians-divorce-more-than-gay-men-.html

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2008/08/07/less-than-1-of-civil-partnerships-ending-in-divorce/


I agree with the sentiment that heterosexuals do plenty to soil marriage and it's ironic to say that same sex marriage would soil marriage when all of these other things happen, but I don't know where you can say that gays respect and honor marriage a lot more than straights. also, in a just world, straight marriage wouldn't be illegal. When you are fighting to get the same acceptance of same sex marriage it's rather hypocritical to then say that you think the other side should have that taken away.

Agreed, but that's not exactly what I said....

I said that Straight couples have no respect for marriage, they divorce, they cheat, they treat it like a game.

Whereas gay couples have been fighting hard just to have the RIGHT to get married, and statistics show they fare better at staying together.

Basically I was saying that in a world where the "Sanctity" of marriage is real, straight couples wouldn't be allowed to get married.

Why?

Because to them marriage is NOT holy or something to be respected, they don't really see it as a union "until death do us part".

They see it as "Well, we'll see how it goes"....."If I like it I'll stay married, if I don't I can just divorce and go after someone else".


Marriage to straights is nothing more than a JOKE or at the very least a social experiment not to be taken too seriously.

Now, I'm NOT saying if gay marriage were 100% legal they wouldn't do the same, at the moment we just don't have the data to indicate that, however, the point is that the people that CAN get married don't take it seriously, so to propose that there is some type of "holy union" or "sanctity" involved is a very.....VERY BAD ARGUMENT!

themanishere
05-24-2012, 07:25 PM
In general, more and more heterosexual people take for granted the ability to get and/or stay married. Marriage as an institution in our society has really been warped by misguided individualism, instant gratification and a lack of long-term perspective on familial values.

For gays/lesbians/etc. without the overall legal recognition, marriage is held in high regard that much more fervently. People tend to put things on pedestals that they don't have, and once they obtain it, it becomes normal.

That said, I would say it's highly likely gay relationships will mirror straight relationships in terms of divorce/staying married/etc. once things progress.

duane1969
05-24-2012, 07:33 PM
None of those articles provide proof that gay marriages end in divorce less or that gays are more respectful of marriage. Every article draws a baseless conclusion. Just because state X has a lower divorce rate and state X allows gay marriages does not mean that gay marriages are lowering the divorce rate. If candy bar sales increase in MA does that mean that gay married couples are buying more candy bars too?

To prove just how shallow those articles are...

All of the articles I can find are touting how the divorce rate dropped and is low after gay marriage was legalized in 2004. The chart I found them referencing shows a decline in the divorce rate from 2003 to 2008 of .5% (2.5% down to 2.0%).
http://irregulartimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/madivorcerate.jpg

Yet the CDC shows that the overall divorce rate in the US between 2003 and 2008 dropped from 7.7% to 7.1%, a decline of .6%. So is it fair to conclude that gay marriages in MA are preventing the divorce rate from declining at the same rate as it declined nationally?
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/marriage_divorce_tables.htm

The reality of the matter that none of your referenced articles bothers to point out is that overall the MARRIAGE rate is declining which is naturally leading to a decline in the divorce rate. Gay marriage has nothing to do with it.

JustAlex
05-24-2012, 07:51 PM
The reality of the matter that none of your referenced articles bothers to point out is that overall the MARRIAGE rate is declining which is naturally leading to a decline in the divorce rate. Gay marriage has nothing to do with it.

To be honest the reason we don't have a better statistic for gay marriages is because there are too few to actually come out with hard facts.

At the moment we do have some assumptions that say that gay marriages are more likely to last longer than straight marriages.

The articles I posted are ASSUMPTIONS.

Regardless, that doesn't mean that everything else I said wasn't a fact.


Straights treat marriage like a JOKE.....to them it's more of a formality (Something they HAVE to do) rather than something that should be respected and treated seriously.


If Christians want to continue saying that marriage is a "holy union" or they want to protect the "sanctity of marriage" first they have clean up their act.

And since we live in a modern time where divorcing, and cheating is easier than ever....that's NOT going to happen.

Star_Cards
05-25-2012, 11:45 AM
OK here are some articles in support that Gay marriages have fared better than straight marriages:

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2011/07/06/divorce-rates-lower-in-states-with-same-sex-marriage

"According to provisional data from the Census Bureau and the Centers for Disease Control's National Vital Statistics System, 5 of the 10 states, plus the District of Columbia, with the lowest divorce rates per thousand people (of the 44 states, plus D.C., that had available data) are also among the nine jurisdictions (a group that includes eight states and the District of Columbia) that currently perform or recognize gay marriages."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bruce-wilson/divorce-rate-in-gay-marri_b_267259.html

http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2012/04/why-do-lesbians-divorce-more-than-gay-men-.html

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2008/08/07/less-than-1-of-civil-partnerships-ending-in-divorce/



Agreed, but that's not exactly what I said....

I said that Straight couples have no respect for marriage, they divorce, they cheat, they treat it like a game.

Whereas gay couples have been fighting hard just to have the RIGHT to get married, and statistics show they fare better at staying together.

Basically I was saying that in a world where the "Sanctity" of marriage is real, straight couples wouldn't be allowed to get married.

Why?

Because to them marriage is NOT holy or something to be respected, they don't really see it as a union "until death do us part".

They see it as "Well, we'll see how it goes"....."If I like it I'll stay married, if I don't I can just divorce and go after someone else".


Marriage to straights is nothing more than a JOKE or at the very least a social experiment not to be taken too seriously.

Now, I'm NOT saying if gay marriage were 100% legal they wouldn't do the same, at the moment we just don't have the data to indicate that, however, the point is that the people that CAN get married don't take it seriously, so to propose that there is some type of "holy union" or "sanctity" involved is a very.....VERY BAD ARGUMENT!

I guess my point was that you generalized straight marriage too much. Yes all of those negative things appear within some straight marriages but not all cheat, divorce, and treat it like a game. And there have been gay couples divorce. I think last year it was reported that one of the first gay couples that married when Massachusetts made it legal got a divorce and even same sex couples go through things like cheating.

I feel that the sanctity of marriage is up to the individuals that are in any given marriage. There's really no overall sanctity with the divorce and infidelity trends over the past 30-40 years.

Again you generalize way too much about straight couples. There are still a lot that don't get divorced and don't cheat. There are many straight couples that take their marriages very seriously. I get where you are going but in my opinion it's a little overboard in generalizing all straight marriages seeing it as a joke. That simply isn't true. In the long run placing everyone into the same category ends up hurting your own valid arguments, which I agree that you have about the general sanctity of marriage these days.

JustAlex
05-25-2012, 12:05 PM
Again you generalize way too much about straight couples. There are still a lot that don't get divorced and don't cheat. There are many straight couples that take their marriages very seriously. I get where you are going but in my opinion it's a little overboard in generalizing all straight marriages seeing it as a joke. That simply isn't true. In the long run placing everyone into the same category ends up hurting your own valid arguments, which I agree that you have about the general sanctity of marriage these days.

Ok, very fair points.

Maybe I am generalizing marriage more than I should.

But I just find it so comical that the divorce rate is so high...

Just think about it, marriage is supposed to be the "Ultimate commitment", it's supposed to be "Until death do us part".

And yet from the moment you say "I do" the odds are very much against you.

Even if you go into it very seriously, and wanting and hoping that you really are going to make it work.....the odds say that it's basically a coin flip that it WON'T work.

That really makes me think personally.....I'm only 24 years old, but marriage terrifies me, I WANT NO PART OF IT!

I'm happier being single and just dating, I'm happier just doing whatever I want with no restrictions.

Here I am with all the rights to get married to any girl that says yes, and I SHUN it, I MOCK it, and I completely DISLIKE the idea of it.


But I'll fight for those that desperately want the same Right I choose to shun, mock, and not take part of.

DunkingDurant35
05-25-2012, 12:11 PM
I guess my point was that you generalized straight marriage too much. Yes all of those negative things appear within some straight marriages but not all cheat, divorce, and treat it like a game. And there have been gay couples divorce. I think last year it was reported that one of the first gay couples that married when Massachusetts made it legal got a divorce and even same sex couples go through things like cheating.

I feel that the sanctity of marriage is up to the individuals that are in any given marriage. There's really no overall sanctity with the divorce and infidelity trends over the past 30-40 years.

Again you generalize way too much about straight couples. There are still a lot that don't get divorced and don't cheat. There are many straight couples that take their marriages very seriously. I get where you are going but in my opinion it's a little overboard in generalizing all straight marriages seeing it as a joke. That simply isn't true. In the long run placing everyone into the same category ends up hurting your own valid arguments, which I agree that you have about the general sanctity of marriage these days.

Once again, you are the voice of reason in a thread. Well done.

My parents have been happily married for over 30 years now. They are not the only ones.

Star_Cards
05-25-2012, 12:15 PM
Ok, very fair points.

Maybe I am generalizing marriage more than I should.

But I just find it so comical that the divorce rate is so high...

Just think about it, marriage is supposed to be the "Ultimate commitment", it's supposed to be "Until death do us part".

And yet from the moment you say "I do" the odds are very much against you.

Even if you go into it very seriously, and wanting and hoping that you really are going to make it work.....the odds say that it's basically a coin flip that it WON'T work.

That really makes me think personally.....I'm only 24 years old, but marriage terrifies me, I WANT NO PART OF IT!

I'm happier being single and just dating, I'm happier just doing whatever I want with no restrictions.

Here I am with all the rights to get married to any girl that says yes, and I SHUN it, I MOCK it, and I completely DISLIKE the idea of it.


But I'll fight for those that desperately want the same Right I choose to shun, mock, and not take part of.

I agree, it is very hypocritical to speak about a sanctity of marriage as a whole. To me the argument that same sex marriage would mar marriage anymore than all of the things that happen now to married couples just simply doesn't hold any water. we are definitely on the same page there.

I'm 37 and have never been married. Was engaged once and almost a second. personally to me marriage doesn't scare me, but I could take it or leave it. It's more about the relationship you have with your sig other. If the commitment means a lot to whoever I'm with and I see myself wanting to be with her then I'd get married, but I don't personally need that to feel a relationship is anymore concrete than one that isn't legally married.

duane1969
05-25-2012, 12:18 PM
Straights treat marriage like a JOKE.....to them it's more of a formality (Something they HAVE to do) rather than something that should be respected and treated seriously.


If Christians want to continue saying that marriage is a "holy union" or they want to protect the "sanctity of marriage" first they have clean up their act.

And since we live in a modern time where divorcing, and cheating is easier than ever....that's NOT going to happen.

I am straight and about to celebrate my 20th anniversary. My parents are straight and just celebrated their 55th anniversary. So much for your generalization that straights don't value marriage.

In my opinion most straight marriages end in divorce because they either got married too early, were not really in love and did it because it was something to do or because they felt that they had to do it (baby on the way) or they don't grasp the concept that marriage is a lifelong journey and bail on it just like they have done on every other commitment in their life. These same aspects can happen in a gay marriage. Just a few months ago we saw the first gay married couple is getting a divorce. There is no evidence that gays respect marriage more or that they are better at being married.

DunkingDurant35
05-25-2012, 12:30 PM
Ok, very fair points.

Maybe I am generalizing marriage more than I should.

But I just find it so comical that the divorce rate is so high...

There is nothing "comical" about a 50% divorce rate. You might want to ask yourself instead, why is our country's divorce rate so high when not all countries are so high? Or, why do half of marriages still work?


I'm happier being single and just dating, I'm happier just doing whatever I want with no restrictions.Typical American male for your age - parade around and make a show of respecting women's rights, but dodge any kind of responsibility that being with one of us women would entail. It takes a lot more maturity to learn how to deal with life when your "my way or the highway, no restrictions" mentality is challenged, and it will be, whether you choose to marry or not, because all relationships in life require some effort and self-negation. Just seeing many of your combative-toned replies on these threads, you have a lot to learn about compromise, tact, and give-and-take. Slow down sometimes and give things more depth of thought. Not everything is a comedy, a joke, or a one-upmanship fight.

JustAlex
05-25-2012, 12:57 PM
Typical American male for your age - parade around and make a show of respecting women's rights, but dodge any kind of responsibility that being with one of us women would entail. It takes a lot more maturity to learn how to deal with life when your "my way or the highway, no restrictions" mentality is challenged, and it will be, whether you choose to marry or not, because all relationships in life require some effort and self-negation. Just seeing many of your combative-toned replies on these threads, you have a lot to learn about compromise, tact, and give-and-take. Slow down sometimes and give things more depth of thought. Not everything is a comedy, a joke, or a one-upmanship fight.

First of all, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be single...

Like I said, marriage is supposed to be a serious thing, why on earth would I want to marry if I view it as a JOKE!

Maybe one day I might exploit marriage for the "benefits" and yes, I'm being blunt.


Secondly, I might be aggressive in my responses but I also back my opinions with facts and evidence.

I don't like throwing blanket statements, if I do it, it's definitely not on purpose.

I'm not trying to be funny or anything, everything I say is what I really believe.

and YES, I really believe marriage is a JOKE and not worth my time or effort.

However, that's MY view on it, if others want to participate in it, that's perfectly fine and I would defend their right to get married.


BTW....."Compromise".....I have to "compromise".....I don't think so!

I might value an opinion even if I disagree with it, but by no means will I "compromise" when I believe something is 100% wrong, such as the denial of gay rights.

Star_Cards
05-25-2012, 01:16 PM
There is nothing "comical" about a 50% divorce rate. You might want to ask yourself instead, why is our country's divorce rate so high when not all countries are so high? Or, why do half of marriages still work?

Typical American male for your age - parade around and make a show of respecting women's rights, but dodge any kind of responsibility that being with one of us women would entail. It takes a lot more maturity to learn how to deal with life when your "my way or the highway, no restrictions" mentality is challenged, and it will be, whether you choose to marry or not, because all relationships in life require some effort and self-negation. Just seeing many of your combative-toned replies on these threads, you have a lot to learn about compromise, tact, and give-and-take. Slow down sometimes and give things more depth of thought. Not everything is a comedy, a joke, or a one-upmanship fight.

I don't think just because he prefers to be single means he doesn't respect women. Some people just have no interest in getting married or even dating the same person exclusively.


I don't think he means the actual rate is funny or awesome. I think he means it's comical to say same sex marriage would hurt the definition of marriage when so many marriages end in divorce, basically saying that there are plenty of things heterosexuals have done to the term marriage to tarnish it.

shrewsbury
05-25-2012, 01:29 PM
[QUOTE]First of all, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be single...

Like I said, marriage is supposed to be a serious thing, why on earth would I want to marry if I view it as a JOKE!

Maybe one day I might exploit marriage for the "benefits" and yes, I'm being blunt.
[QUOTE]

well if that is your view it would be one reason why the divorce rate is so high.

i raised 3 kids, been married for 20+ years and have always worked.

i got married to have kids and a family, not for a tax right off.

duane1969
05-25-2012, 01:41 PM
i got married to have kids and a family, not for a tax right off.

Especially considering the tax write-offs are going away LOL

habsheaven
05-25-2012, 01:56 PM
[quote]First of all, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be single...

Like I said, marriage is supposed to be a serious thing, why on earth would I want to marry if I view it as a JOKE!

Maybe one day I might exploit marriage for the "benefits" and yes, I'm being blunt.
[quote]

well if that is your view it would be one reason why the divorce rate is so high.

i raised 3 kids, been married for 20+ years and have always worked.

i got married to have kids and a family, not for a tax right off.

I don't think the "benefits" he was referring to were tax write-offs but maybe that is just my heathen mind talking.

DunkingDurant35
05-25-2012, 04:05 PM
Maybe one day I might exploit marriage for the "benefits" and yes, I'm being blunt.

Wow. Says all I need to know about you. Men like you who use women for personal benefit are as sickening as the women who use rich men for the same. You people are part of the reason marriage is viewed as a joke by some - the rest of us who take life somewhat seriously and have the maturity for successful, reasonable, long-lasting respectful relationships are why there are still 50% successful marriages, a fact that you keep conveniently avoiding.

JustAlex
05-25-2012, 04:45 PM
Wow. Says all I need to know about you. Men like you who use women for personal benefit are as sickening as the women who use rich men for the same. You people are part of the reason marriage is viewed as a joke by some - the rest of us who take life somewhat seriously and have the maturity for successful, reasonable, long-lasting respectful relationships are why there are still 50% successful marriages, a fact that you keep conveniently avoiding.

Wait, how am I the "problem" if I want NOTHING to do with marriage.

Clearly you don't understand when I write in the form of ASSUMPTIONS.

My "exploit marriage" comment was only under the ASSUMPTION that I would actually go through with it, and since I've already said I dislike the notion of marriage, until I change my mind I have absolutely no plans to go through with it.


And NO, I'm NOT the reason why marriage is a joke.....blame that on the hypocricy of certain people who hold up marriage as a "holy union" and then cheat, divorce, and remarry.


50% success rate is TERRIBLE.....imagine if your car had a 50% chance of turning on.

Imagine if you had some illness and they tell you there's only a 50% chance of survival.

Imagine if you're on a plane and there's only a 50% chance of a safe trip.

I could go on, but you get the picture.

DunkingDurant35
05-25-2012, 05:15 PM
You clearly said you might go through with it, then you say you want nothing to do with it - which is it? Either phrase your posts better, or stop contradicting yourself.

Also, marriage is about more than statistics. Look up the facts of many countries whose divorce rate is lower than yours, and ponder why that is, and ponder why the 50% here are still successful. Rather than treating it as a mere percentage factor, try to do some depth of thought in learning why the ones that ARE successful are the way they are.

I understand you are young and think you have everything figured out already, but you will look back one day and realize you didn't put as much thought into things as you think you are doing now.

DunkingDurant35
05-25-2012, 07:19 PM
I understand not all here like the thought of marriage, and it's your right to live entirely for yourself if you so choose. But while we are on the subject of cold, hard facts in support of one's views, here are some that support marriage -

http://www.psychpage.com/family/brwaitgalligher.html

"Married men are more successful in work as well, getting promoted more often and receiving higher performance appraisals. They also miss work or arrive late less often (Kostiuk and Follman, 1989, and Shaw, 1987). As for women, white married women (without children) earn 4% more and black married women earn 10% more than their single peers (Waite, 1995). While some point out that house work for married women (37 hours per week) is greater than that of single women (25 hours), half of that is due to having children (South and Spitze, 1994)."

"Married people live longer as well. Single men have mortality rates that are 250% higher than married men. Single women have mortality rates that are 50% higher than married women (Ross et all, 1990). Having a spouse can decrease your risk for dying from cancer as much as knocking ten years off your life. Single people spend longer in the hospital, and have a greater risk of dying after surgery (Goodwin et al, 1987)."

"Married men are half as likely to commit suicide as single men, and one third as likely as divorced men. Widowed men under 45 are nine times more likely to commit suicide as married men (Smith, Mercy, and Conn, 1988). Married people report lower levels of depression and distress, and 40% say they are very happy with their lives, compared to about 25% in single people. Married people were half as likely to say they were unhappy with their lives."

Further, this source is not from any evangelical web site, so you can't claim bias there. Here are the credentials of the author:

http://www.psychpage.com/about-dr-niolon

Note:

"I have a private practice in downtown Chicago where I work with gay and straight individuals and couples, both in the traditional theoretical models (e.g., Bowenian and Strategic Therapy), as well as newer research-based models (i.e., Gottman’s Sound Marital House). Couples work is my passion and primary scholarly interest, including issues associated with cohabitating couples, divorce, remarriage after divorce, and domestic partnership rights."

---

So again, it's your choice, but these are some pretty impressive facts in support of marriage. Marriages that work, statistically, have far more impressive benefits than both divorces and single-living.

If you are afraid to take the plunge, then talk to people with successful marriages to see what actually works. If you still don't want to listen to their advice and don't want to make the effort and want to live entirely for yourself, again, it's your choice, but statistics indicate your life won't be as fulfilling.

JustAlex
05-25-2012, 07:32 PM
^Those are some great stats and I'm glad to see someone OTHER THAN MYSELF actually put up an effort to post references and links.

I would just like to say that the main topic at hand was gay marriage though....not straight marriage.

And I fully support ALL gays in every single state to have full rights to get married.



BTW....just like people who don't smoke are more likely to live longer compared to those that do smoke, all the stats (as impressive as they were) are pretty meaningless to individual free choice such as wanting to get married or not.


Either way, you should also consider these stats:

"The health consequences of divorce are so severe that a Yale researcher concluded that “being divorced and a nonsmoker is [only] slightly less dangerous than smoking a pack a day and staying married.”

"Men and women both suffer a decline in mental health following divorce"

Source: http://www.troubledwith.com/Relationships/A000000830.cfm?topic=relationships%3A%20divorce

And of course we know how badly kids can be damaged in a divorced household...

http://extension.unh.edu/family/documents/divorce.pdf

And since getting divorced is a 50/50 chance.......you get the picture.


:-)

DunkingDurant35
05-25-2012, 08:06 PM
Fair enough. But it always comes down to this: you can ask the successful marriage people what works compared to what doesn't. For all the divorces that are out there, there are as many successful marriages, and those that are successful have a better statistical outcome than either divorce or single-hood.

As someone who has grandparents married for 60+ years, parents for 30+ years, and a long-lasting relationship myself that made me far happier than I was when I was single, I feel pretty confident that good relationships are worth whatever risk there is for failure.