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pwaldo
05-16-2012, 06:10 PM
http://politicalwire.com/archives/2012/05/15/poll_shows_appetite_for_third_party.html


A new Washington Times/JZ Analytics Poll finds 28% of voters said their political views are represented well by Democrats, 23% said the GOP represents their stances but 37% said they don't find their views well-represented by any party in the political system.

AUTaxMan
05-16-2012, 06:20 PM
It's called the tea party.

pghin08
05-16-2012, 09:03 PM
It's called the tea party.

I'd bet more of those people identify closer with libertarianism than the tea party.

duane1969
05-16-2012, 09:16 PM
I am part of that 37%. And Kurt, you are correct, I am more libertarian.

AUTaxMan
05-16-2012, 09:22 PM
I'd bet more of those people identify closer with libertarianism than the tea party.

the tea party is largely libertarian.

pghin08
05-16-2012, 09:46 PM
the tea party is largely libertarian.

What tea party are you talking about? The one I've seen is HARDLY socially liberal.

AUTaxMan
05-16-2012, 10:45 PM
What tea party are you talking about? The one I've seen is HARDLY socially liberal.

you see what the liberal media portrays

JustAlex
05-16-2012, 10:48 PM
you see what the liberal media portrays

That's Funny, I must remember that FAUX NEWS is part of the Liberal media...

LOL, where do you come up with this?!?!

pghin08
05-16-2012, 10:50 PM
you see what the liberal media portrays

From the tea party website, their 15 core beliefs:

1. Illegal aliens are here illegally.

2. Pro-domestic employment is indispensable.

3. A strong military is essential.

4. Special interests must be eliminated.

5. Gun ownership is sacred.

6. Government must be downsized.

7. The national budget must be balanced.

8. Deficit spending must end.

9. Bailout and stimulus plans are illegal.

10. Reducing personal income taxes is a must.

11. Reducing business income taxes is mandatory.

12. Political offices must be available to average citizens.

13. Intrusive government must be stopped.

14. English as our core language is required.

15. Traditional family values are encouraged.


What is socially liberal about that? Sounds pretty conservative to me. And why would the so-called "liberal media" want to paint socially liberal people as being socially conservative?

JustAlex
05-16-2012, 11:10 PM
From the tea party website, their 15 core beliefs:

1. Illegal aliens are here illegally. DERP!

2. Pro-domestic employment is indispensable.

3. A strong military is essential. Yeah, cuz we NEED to police the world!

4. Special interests must be eliminated.

5. Gun ownership is sacred. I LUVS my gun....

6. Government must be downsized.

7. The national budget must be balanced.

8. Deficit spending must end.

9. Bailout and stimulus plans are illegal. Then go after Bush who initiated it!

10. Reducing personal income taxes is a must.

11. Reducing business income taxes is mandatory. YEAH, let's make it ZERO!!!

12. Political offices must be available to average citizens. IT IS!

13. Intrusive government must be stopped. Yeah like wanting to decide whether or not a woman can have an abortion, what's more intrusive than going into a woman's body and telling her what she can and CAN'T do!

14. English as our core language is required. QUE???

15. Traditional family values are encouraged. Translation....NO GAYS!!!


What is socially liberal about that? Sounds pretty conservative to me. And why would the so-called "liberal media" want to paint socially liberal people as being socially conservative?

Responses in BOLD

marekschwarz33
05-16-2012, 11:22 PM
Given a choice between Romney and Obama, I will choose neither of the two. I'm a Ron Paul supporter who will be backing Gary Johnson (Libertarian nominee) in the general election.

I get the feeling that a large portion of Americans are fiscally conservative and socially liberal and that is something that libertarianism offers. I'm not a particular fan of the Libertarian party but they certainly represent my views better than the Republicans or Democrats.

INTIMADATOR2007
05-16-2012, 11:30 PM
From the tea party website, their 15 core beliefs:

1. Illegal aliens are here illegally.

2. Pro-domestic employment is indispensable.

3. A strong military is essential.

4. Special interests must be eliminated.

5. Gun ownership is sacred.

6. Government must be downsized.

7. The national budget must be balanced.

8. Deficit spending must end.

9. Bailout and stimulus plans are illegal.

10. Reducing personal income taxes is a must.

11. Reducing business income taxes is mandatory.

12. Political offices must be available to average citizens.

13. Intrusive government must be stopped.

14. English as our core language is required.

15. Traditional family values are encouraged.


What is socially liberal about that? Sounds pretty conservative to me. And why would the so-called "liberal media" want to paint socially liberal people as being socially conservative?

There is absoutley no "authentic" Tea Party website that would put stuff up like that . That is in no way the views of a tea party member . Although i would agree with 3 6 7 13 14 15 . What you have found is a bogus stab at the tea party .

Star_Cards
05-16-2012, 11:32 PM
I feel that the more legitimate parties that are out there the better. Having two major parties doesn't give a very large scope of all of the different ideals that are out there on specific topics. Plus competition is typically a good thing. If the Reps and Dems know that there are other choices that could step in and take a position here and there they may be more likely to get their acts together.

JustAlex
05-16-2012, 11:54 PM
There is absoutley no "authentic" Tea Party website that would put stuff up like that . That is in no way the views of a tea party member.

Sorry, you're wrong!

http://www.teaparty.org/about.php

^It's ALL there!

pghin08
05-16-2012, 11:54 PM
There is absoutley no "authentic" Tea Party website that would put stuff up like that . That is in no way the views of a tea party member . Although i would agree with 3 6 7 13 14 15 . What you have found is a bogus stab at the tea party .

http://teaparty.org/about.php

I mean, it's teaparty.org. I figured that's about as good a site as any as being indicative of the tea party.

themanishere
05-17-2012, 12:48 AM
Our politics have become so polarized that even if a third organization were to emerge, it would simply replace one of the two major parties in due time. It's a cycle of party politics.

AUTaxMan
05-17-2012, 05:24 AM
Our politics have become so polarized that even if a third organization were to emerge, it would simply replace one of the two major parties in due time. It's a cycle of party politics.

i think youll see the fiscal conservatives replace the establishment republicans over the next decade

duane1969
05-17-2012, 09:14 AM
http://teaparty.org/about.php

I mean, it's teaparty.org. I figured that's about as good a site as any as being indicative of the tea party.

Yeah, while there is no "official" Tea Party website that website def is not it. The one that I think most Tea Partiers identify with is Tea Party Patriots https://www.teapartypatriots.org/

The core principles of the Tea Party are a morphing of our government from one that is sticking it's nose into everything into a constitutionally limited government, a true free market economy that isn't inhibited by excessive government regulation and restriction, and fiscal responsibility by the government.

There are those who call themselves Tea Party members who make social issues such as gay marriage and immigration their platform because that is what gets the most media attention, but if you look at the true grassroots of the Tea Party you will see that the whole reason it started was as a movement to achieve a limited government and a self-sustaining economy. Social issues were never a part of the origin of the Tea Party.

If you go to their sign-up page you will see this...


Do you believe America needs a renewed focus on free market economic policies, fiscal responsibility and, constitutionally limited government? If you answered yes then you should become a Tea Party Patriot today.

No mention of gay marriage or immigration.

pghin08
05-17-2012, 09:33 AM
Yeah, while there is no "official" Tea Party website that website def is not it. The one that I think most Tea Partiers identify with is Tea Party Patriots https://www.teapartypatriots.org/

The core principles of the Tea Party are a morphing of our government from one that is sticking it's nose into everything into a constitutionally limited government, a true free market economy that isn't inhibited by excessive government regulation and restriction, and fiscal responsibility by the government.

There are those who call themselves Tea Party members who make social issues such as gay marriage and immigration their platform because that is what gets the most media attention, but if you look at the true grassroots of the Tea Party you will see that the whole reason it started was as a movement to achieve a limited government and a self-sustaining economy. Social issues were never a part of the origin of the Tea Party.

If you go to their sign-up page you will see this...



No mention of gay marriage or immigration.

Gotcha. But in a bit of support for that website's credo, here's a Pew Research article (with charts, yay!) about the social leanings of the Tea Party.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1903/tea-party-movement-religion-social-issues-conservative-christian

Take a look at the second chart on the page. It looks like on social issues, the Tea Party is actually equally or even more conservative than the Republicans.

duane1969
05-17-2012, 09:59 AM
Gotcha. But in a bit of support for that website's credo, here's a Pew Research article (with charts, yay!) about the social leanings of the Tea Party.

http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1903/tea-party-movement-religion-social-issues-conservative-christian

Take a look at the second chart on the page. It looks like on social issues, the Tea Party is actually equally or even more conservative than the Republicans.

That poll doesn't really show anything highly unusual.

*According to that poll, 64% of Tea Party members oppose same-sex marriage. The CBS poll released last Monday said that 38% of those polled support same-sex marriage (so 62% oppose or support same-sex unions, but not marriage).

*The abortion numbers are logical. Only hardline liberals think there should be zero restrictions on abortion. Most Americans, even moderate liberals, see the need for some form of restriction. Unfortunately the way that poll is worded it essentially places you on the side of either fully supporting or fully opposing abortion.

*The immigration issue makes sense considering the Tea Party position of the need for a fiscally responsible government. It's hard for our government to be fiscally responsible with 11 million illegals contributing to welfare needs, increased school populations and the loss of tax base due to under-the-table paychecks for undocumented workers.

*Gun ownership numbers make sense considering the movement is largely distru™™™™l of the government. I don't see why this isn't a bigger issue for liberals. Only the dullest of people truly believe that the police can/will protect them in a time of need.

pghin08
05-17-2012, 10:01 AM
That poll doesn't really show anything highly unusual.

*According to that poll, 64% of Tea Party members oppose same-sex marriage. The CBS poll released last Monday said that 38% of those polled support same-sex marriage (so 62% oppose or support same-sex unions, but not marriage).

*The abortion numbers are logical. Only hardline liberals think there should be zero restrictions on abortion. Most Americans, even moderate liberals, see the need for some form of restriction. Unfortunately the way that poll is worded it essentially places you on the side of either fully supporting or fully opposing abortion.

*The immigration issue makes sense considering the Tea Party position of the need for a fiscally responsible government. It's hard for our government to be fiscally responsible with 11 million illegals contributing to welfare needs, increased school populations and the loss of tax base due to under-the-table paychecks for undocumented workers.

*Gun ownership numbers make sense considering the movement is largely distru™™™™l of the government. I don't see why this isn't a bigger issue for liberals. Only the dullest of people truly believe that the police can/will protect them in a time of need.

It proves that the vast majority of the Tea Party is more socially conservative than even registered Republicans, so to my point of the Tea Party being not very liberal socially, then it's very relevant. How the Tea Party stacks up against all registered voters doesn't matter. I was looking at how they stacked up socially to registered Reps.

duane1969
05-17-2012, 10:18 AM
It proves that the vast majority of the Tea Party is more socially conservative than even registered Republicans, so to my point of the Tea Party being not very liberal socially, then it's very relevant. How the Tea Party stacks up against all registered voters doesn't matter. I was looking at how they stacked up socially to registered Reps.

To be honest I don't know many Tea Party members. I would think that there is a good chance that they are more socially conservative simply because many conservatives don't like the liberal watering down of the GOP and are looking for a better option. Romney is a key example of a liberal in Republican's clothing propped up by the GOP.

I guess I fit the mold of a Tea Party member pretty good because I support gun ownership (and own plenty), I do not support abortion in all/most cases and I support border security and dealing with immigration issues.

If being socially liberal means only the government should have guns, our borders should be flung open wide and doctors should be aborting babies like popping the heads off of dandelions, then I gladly consider myself a social conservative.

pghin08
05-17-2012, 10:24 AM
To be honest I don't know many Tea Party members. I would think that there is a good chance that they are more socially conservative simply because many conservatives don't like the liberal watering down of the GOP and are looking for a better option. Romney is a key example of a liberal in Republican's clothing propped up by the GOP.

I guess I fit the mold of a Tea Party member pretty good because I support gun ownership (and own plenty), I do not support abortion in all/most cases and I support border security and dealing with immigration issues.

If being socially liberal means only the government should have guns, our borders should be flung open wide and doctors should be aborting babies like popping the heads off of dandelions, then I gladly consider myself a social conservative.

Agree 100% with what you've posted. And I think (along with Pew Research), that most Tea Partiers are like you, and not very libertarian. From my time here on P&R, my opinion of you is that you are a pretty classic conservative in the sense of how the Republican party existed under Reagan.

duane1969
05-17-2012, 10:34 AM
Agree 100% with what you've posted. And I think (along with Pew Research), that most Tea Partiers are like you, and not very libertarian. From my time here on P&R, my opinion of you is that you are a pretty classic conservative in the sense of how the Republican party existed under Reagan.

My hero! (as soon as Michael sees this I bet he goes on an anti-Reagan rant LOL)

http://www.greeting-cards-4u.com/platinum6/pictures/images/Tubes/Disney/sjf~Goofy%20In%20Love.jpg

tpeichel
05-17-2012, 11:16 AM
The rejection of the "bail out my neighbor mentality" is what really started the Tea Party, not social issues.

http://www.investors.com/image/RAM1finlclr-051612-julia-IB.jpg.cms

Certainly the establishment Republicans have tried to inject social issues into the Tea Party, and to some extent they have been successful, but the underlying core of the Tea Party movement, fiscal restraint and limited government, is still very strong and highly appealing to many people.

pghin08
05-17-2012, 11:16 AM
My hero! (as soon as Michael sees this I bet he goes on an anti-Reagan rant LOL)


What is it about Reagan that today's conservative idolizes so much? They focus so much on the fact that he had his big tax cut when he came into office, but ignore the fact that he backtracked on that a bit by raising taxes 11 times. I'm not a huge Reagan fan (I'm sure this shocks you), but I admire his ability to have recognized when he cut too much. I don't see that humility in today's conservative, they are unapologetic cutters, which Reagan was not.

JustAlex
05-17-2012, 11:36 AM
What is it about Reagan that today's conservative idolizes so much?
I personally believe because Reagan is a SAINT compared to both Bushes'.

There's NO WAY they would dare say anything positive about Bush so they just go backwards.

It's quite pathetic IMO seeing as Reagan did AMNESTY for illegals and like you said raised Taxes 11 times.

The funniest part of all of this....Reagan would be considered a hard liberal by today's republicans.

They are SO FAR RIGHT, it's crazy!

AUTaxMan
05-17-2012, 12:04 PM
What is it about Reagan that today's conservative idolizes so much? They focus so much on the fact that he had his big tax cut when he came into office, but ignore the fact that he backtracked on that a bit by raising taxes 11 times. I'm not a huge Reagan fan (I'm sure this shocks you), but I admire his ability to have recognized when he cut too much. I don't see that humility in today's conservative, they are unapologetic cutters, which Reagan was not.

Is repeal of a not-yet-effective, future tax cut a tax increase (especially if the rate is still lower than it was originally)? Income tax rates were slashed under Reagan, and that's what hits most people's bottom lines the hardest. Sure he raised taxes on things like cigarettes and gasoline, but to essentially treat Reagan's tax increases as discrediting his cuts is not really accurate.

pghin08
05-17-2012, 12:17 PM
Is repeal of a not-yet-effective, future tax cut a tax increase (especially if the rate is still lower than it was originally)? Income tax rates were slashed under Reagan, and that's what hits most people's bottom lines the hardest. Sure he raised taxes on things like cigarettes and gasoline, but to essentially treat Reagan's tax increases as discrediting his cuts is not really accurate.

I can see where you'd think that's what I was doing, but I didn't really mean that to discredit his cuts. My point was where he differed from today's conservative. Reagan came in slashing big time, and realized that he may have done too much, and incrementally raised taxes. Of course, the net effect of the Reagan years were lower taxes, that's beyond debate, I just admired his ability to admit that he'd done a bit too much. I don't think today's conservative would do that. They would just cut, and that would be that. No tax increases no matter what. Reagan wasn't like that.

AUTaxMan
05-17-2012, 12:44 PM
I can see where you'd think that's what I was doing, but I didn't really mean that to discredit his cuts. My point was where he differed from today's conservative. Reagan came in slashing big time, and realized that he may have done too much, and incrementally raised taxes. Of course, the net effect of the Reagan years were lower taxes, that's beyond debate, I just admired his ability to admit that he'd done a bit too much. I don't think today's conservative would do that. They would just cut, and that would be that. No tax increases no matter what. Reagan wasn't like that.

I didn't take that from your post, but that is the argument made by liberals generally against Reagan. Reagan was able to compromise with Tip O'Neill. He cut taxes with a Democratic Congress. That was one of his many admirable accomplishments.

pghin08
05-17-2012, 12:54 PM
I didn't take that from your post, but that is the argument made by liberals generally against Reagan. Reagan was able to compromise with Tip O'Neill. He cut taxes with a Democratic Congress. That was one of his many admirable accomplishments.

Remember the thread I had about the Mann and Ornstein article? This is exactly what they're talking about. This stuff used to happen, and I agree with you, I admire Reagan's ability to work with the Dems. Where did this ability go? Why does freaking Grover Norquist try to get people to sign that stupid "I'll never raise taxes and therefore will never compromise with anybody" pledge? People on the right laud Reagan to the point of near-obsession, so why can't they follow his lead?

AUTaxMan
05-17-2012, 01:00 PM
Why does freaking Grover Norquist try to get people to sign that stupid "I'll never raise taxes and therefore will never compromise with anybody" pledge? People on the right laud Reagan to the point of near-obsession, so why can't they follow his lead?

I don't understand it at all, except that politicians on both sides are much more concerned with self-preservation than representing their constituents.

pghin08
05-17-2012, 01:14 PM
I don't understand it at all, except that politicians on both sides are much more concerned with self-preservation than representing their constituents.

That's definitely the case now, but to a point I think that was always the case. Most politicians care more about keeping their jobs than doing them. I just don't understand that sort of paradigm shift, because there was no catalyst for it. Why would a politician in 2012 care more about their re-election than a politician in 1986? It doesn't make sense.