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View Full Version : Iran shows off gospel they claim will bring down Christianity & shake world politics



pwaldo
05-26-2012, 04:56 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2149227/Gospel-Barnabas-cause-Christianitys-collapse-Iran-claims.html

JustAlex
05-26-2012, 05:07 PM
I often wonder how much better this world would be with absolutely no religion.

I often wonder if the "dark ages" had not happened, Christopher Columbus would have been going to the moon instead of "discovering" America....

I also wonder how the world would look today.....


Unfortunately, it's at this point where reality sets in, and the inescapable truth that humans will always want an answer to the unknowable, and when they don't get those answers, they affix it to an entity called "god".

habsheaven
05-26-2012, 08:45 PM
A world without religion would be a wonderful thing. Unfortunately, human nature assures us that mankind will always be willing to accept almost anything if it provides them with answers and thus comfort.

AUTaxMan
05-26-2012, 09:34 PM
A world without religion would be a wonderful thing. Unfortunately, human nature assures us that mankind will always be willing to accept almost anything if it provides them with answers and thus comfort.

Without God, do we have natural rights? What are they? Where do we draw our ethics and laws from? Is human life more sacred than any other form of life? Would society be more civilized? Why?

JustAlex
05-26-2012, 09:46 PM
Without God, do we have natural rights? What are they? Where do we draw our ethics and laws from? Is human life more sacred than any other form of life? Would society be more civilized? Why?

Ah yes, the good ol' "God gives men morals" argument.

Well, let me argue this:

These are the "25 most atheist" countries in the world.

http://www.infobarrel.com/25_Most_Atheist_Countries_in_the_World

Surprise, surprise the U.S is NOWHERE to be seen....I envy you Canada (#20).


But just look at the #1 Atheist country....SWEDEN, one of the most peaceful countries in the world.

High education rate and a great economy.


Morals do NOT come from God.....and if you're going to argue that, then WHY is the U.S (80% Christian Country) so violent?

With thousands of violent crimes each year such as theft with deadly weapons, rape, and murder.

ensbergcollector
05-26-2012, 09:48 PM
when this life is over, religion will have a lot to answer for in regards to the evil done in its name. at the same time, if you subtract all the benevolence done in this country by religious organizations, i'm not sure you can say the world would be a better place.

ensbergcollector
05-26-2012, 09:50 PM
Ah yes, the good ol' "God gives men morals" argument.

Well, let me argue this:

These are the "25 most atheist" countries in the world.

http://www.infobarrel.com/25_Most_Atheist_Countries_in_the_World

Surprise, surprise the U.S is NOWHERE to be seen....I envy you Canada (#20).


But just look at the #1 Atheist country....SWEDEN, one of the most peaceful countries in the world.

High education rate and a great economy.


Morals do NOT come from God.....and if you're going to argue that, then WHY is the U.S (80% Christian Country) so violent?

With thousands of violent crimes each year such as theft with deadly weapons, rape, and murder.

if you are actually arguing that religion or lack there of is the cause of those statistics I find that laughable. crime statistics are almost always a result of what punishments can be expected as well as what percentage of the country is below the poverty line.

there are countries with much less theft than america. is that religious based or the fact that stealing gets your hand cut off?

JustAlex
05-26-2012, 09:59 PM
when this life is over, religion will have a lot to answer for in regards to the evil done in its name. at the same time, if you subtract all the benevolence done in this country by religious organizations, i'm not sure you can say the world would be a better place.

Umm.....could you please name some of these "benevolences" that you speak of?

Because organizations such as the American Red Cross does NOT claim any religion whatsoever.

JustAlex
05-26-2012, 10:14 PM
A world without religion would be a wonderful thing. Unfortunately, human nature assures us that mankind will always be willing to accept almost anything if it provides them with answers and thus comfort.

Agreed.

Case in point.....Psychics!

We all know that they are frauds, and yet people keep forking money over to them, but why?

Because, it's much more comforting for someone to tell you (EVEN IF IT'S A LIE) that your loved ones are "In a better place" or that "Your future will be a good one".


Human beings just like to "feel good" they crave it more than anything.

When you tell someone that if you are a good person and believe in something you can't see/feel/touch you will be rewarded with eternal life.....that sounds so nice!

You don't even question the thing that you can't see/feel/touch because you're too busy thinking of the "reward".....


I was thinking of the "reward" for 15 years until it actually hit me......why exactly do I want this "reward"?

My life here on earth is so limited, I don't want to waste it, and believing in something I can't see/feel/touch instead of freely living my life was not what I wanted.

My real "reward" has already been granted to me, I am able to experience and enjoy life.....that's all I can ask for.

DunkingDurant35
05-26-2012, 10:51 PM
Classic debate here, but this seems like it needs a more general thread. I'll go and start one.

OnePimpTiger
05-27-2012, 02:38 AM
Umm.....could you please name some of these "benevolences" that you speak of?

Because organizations such as the American Red Cross does NOT claim any religion whatsoever.

So churches and other Christian organizations do nothing good in this country? Are you seriously unaware of the billions of dollars in charity given by Christians, the millions of missionaries helping the less fortunate in America and around the world, the hundreds of thousands of churches providing help in times of need in their community? Do you also go by gatorboymike?

The Red Cross is a bureaucratic model of inefficiency that sits around "planning" how to help people while Christian organizations and churches are actually helping. And yes, I know this to be true from first hand experience, not something I heard on Fox News.

On another topic, maybe one day people will realize that bigotry and narrow-mindedness go both ways...but I'm not holding my breath.

JustAlex
05-27-2012, 03:39 AM
So churches and other Christian organizations do nothing good in this country? Are you seriously unaware of the billions of dollars in charity given by Christians

Funny.....I though Christians were "Capitalists", and giving money to the poor is so SOCIALIST!

Seriously though, you are exaggerating the number of money they give, and even if they do help that doesn't take away all the harm they do by oppressing gays and any other group they disagree with.


The Red Cross is a bureaucratic model of inefficiency that sits around "planning" how to help people while Christian organizations and churches are actually helping.

LOL....I'm not even going to entertain this notion.

The Red cross is inefficient?

WOW!

ensbergcollector
05-27-2012, 09:50 AM
Funny.....I though Christians were "Capitalists", and giving money to the poor is so SOCIALIST!

Seriously though, you are exaggerating the number of money they give, and even if they do help that doesn't take away all the harm they do by oppressing gays and any other group they disagree with.



LOL....I'm not even going to entertain this notion.

The Red cross is inefficient?

WOW!


i assure you he is not exaggerating anything. just because it doesn't fit into your "view" of christianity doesn't make it false.

so you would be ok with billions of dollars currently going to the less fortunate around the world being taken away as long as christians supported homosexual marriage?

if you do not think the red cross is inefficient, then i don't know what to tell you. having had multiple "experiences" with the red cross, i can assure you he is accurate.


and as for your first comment, christians do not think giving to the poor is communist. they thing being forced to give to the "poor" is wrong.

DunkingDurant35
05-27-2012, 12:07 PM
Funny.....I though Christians were "Capitalists", and giving money to the poor is so SOCIALIST!

It might help to actually read the Bible and what Christ said to see what Christians are supposed to follow. Keep in mind that there was no capitalism or socialism in Biblical days.

Some verses that might help:

"Jesus said to him, 'If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.'" Matthew 19:21

"Do not deny justice to your poor people in their lawsuits." Exodus 23:6

"Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God." Leviticus 19:10

"If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of the land that the LORD your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward your poor brother." Deuteronomy 15:7

"You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor, but the LORD is their refuge." Psalm 14:6

"He will defend the afflicted among the people and save the children of the needy; he will crush the oppressor." Psalm 72:4

"I know that the LORD secures justice for the poor and upholds the cause of the needy." Psalm 140:12

"A ruler who oppresses the poor is like a driving rain that leaves no crops." Proverbs 28:3

Or better yet, just go here -

http://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/poor.htm (http://home.snu.edu/%7Ehculbert/poor.htm)

So yes, so much anti-poor propaganda in both the Christian testaments, isn't there? Not.

DunkingDurant35
05-27-2012, 01:56 PM
Unfortunately, it's at this point where reality sets in, and the inescapable truth that humans will always want an answer to the unknowable, and when they don't get those answers, they affix it to an entity called "god".
A world without religion would be a wonderful thing. Unfortunately, human nature assures us that mankind will always be willing to accept almost anything if it provides them with answers and thus comfort.

And why should we not seek for answers to things that are not concrete? A lot of life requires abstract thought, and we have to deal with the parts of life that require it, not live in some fantasy world where we could just do away with anything we don't like. Keep in mind too that if we force anti-religion on people, we are being no better than when "some" religionists force religion on those who believe something else. Why not just let people wonder and ask questions, come to various conclusions, and then discuss any disagreements?

habsheaven
05-27-2012, 02:22 PM
And why should we not seek for answers to things that are not concrete? A lot of life requires abstract thought, and we have to deal with the parts of life that require it, not live in some fantasy world where we could just do away with anything we don't like. Keep in mind too that if we force anti-religion on people, we are being no better than when "some" religionists force religion on those who believe something else. Why not just let people wonder and ask questions, come to various conclusions, and then discuss any disagreements?

No one wants to force anything on anyone. I would contend that Alex and I are constantly seeking answers to all of life's questions. Where we differ, is that we have not found those answers yet. It seems followers of religion have stopped looking for answers and have accepted the writings of men who died thousands of years ago.

DunkingDurant35
05-27-2012, 02:32 PM
But you already have made conclusions that religion is wrong. Seems you have indeed found what you think are the answers, which is why you regularly debate against any religious folk. If you really had no opinion, you wouldn't state any.

habsheaven
05-27-2012, 02:42 PM
But you already have made conclusions that religion is wrong. Seems you have indeed found what you think are the answers, which is why you regularly debate against any religious folk. If you really had no opinion, you wouldn't state any.

Not believing in "religion" is not an answer to life's questions. The questions remain.

DunkingDurant35
05-27-2012, 02:45 PM
You still have made decisions on them, decisions that you think are correct. Conceptually, this is not any different from what religious followers have done - the conclusions are just different, is all.

habsheaven
05-27-2012, 03:11 PM
You still have made decisions on them, decisions that you think are correct. Conceptually, this is not any different from what religious followers have done - the conclusions are just different, is all.

Not sure I follow what you are saying. I haven't made any decisions on any of life's questions.

JustAlex
05-27-2012, 03:23 PM
Not sure I follow what you are saying. I haven't made any decisions on any of life's questions.

Definitely.

For example, how did life begin?

Well, religion tells us God made us....out of nothing?

While science has it's theories on how life began (abiogenesis) which gives a naturalistic explanation without the need of the "supernatural".

I don't know if abiogenesis really happened, but right now that's a MUCH BETTER theory than "God did it".

Which God?

WHEN?

And why isn't there any evidence for this God?

Why doesn't he appear and take credit for his work?

AUTaxMan
05-27-2012, 07:59 PM
Funny.....I though Christians were "Capitalists", and giving money to the poor is so SOCIALIST!

This is one of the dumbest things I have ever seen written on this board (and that is saying something). Socialism is being forced to spend your money on causes deemed worthy by government bureaucrats. Charity is giving your money to whom you please.

AUTaxMan
05-27-2012, 08:12 PM
Do you also go by gatorboymike?

I don't think so. GMB is both much more intelligent and much more hateful.

TheTGB
05-27-2012, 08:17 PM
I was kinda hoping this thread would stay on track...but just like all the others, it hasn't.

JustAlex
05-27-2012, 08:21 PM
I don't think so. GMB is both much more intelligent and much more hateful.

Awesome Ad Hominem attack!

DunkingDurant35
05-27-2012, 08:49 PM
I was kinda hoping this thread would stay on track...but just like all the others, it hasn't.

You're right...probably has run its course.

AUTaxMan
05-27-2012, 08:51 PM
Awesome Ad Hominem attack!

No, both are factual. You should actually take it as a compliment. GBM is very smart and unbelievably hateful.

JustAlex
05-27-2012, 09:00 PM
No, both are factual. You should actually take it as a compliment. GBM is very smart and unbelievably hateful.

If I hate anything, it's the concept of religion.

I don't hate christians or anyone else.

I hate IDEAS....not people!

AUTaxMan
05-27-2012, 09:05 PM
If I hate anything, it's the concept of religion.

I don't hate christians or anyone else.

I hate IDEAS....not people!

GBM hates people.

JustAlex
05-27-2012, 09:12 PM
GBM hates people.

Well, I don't!

And if by any chance I have said anything on here which is a direct attack to you or any other member.....I apologize.

I KNOW that I'm aggressive in the way I talk about politics and religion.

I believe I HAVE TO BE THAT WAY in order to properly get my ideas across.

I'm very laid back when it comes to discussing sports, but religion and politics is a different animal.


Anyways, I always try to attack the idea/comment/position.....never the person.

hawk2618
05-27-2012, 09:13 PM
I wouldn't believe anything the Iranian government says....lets see...how long do we wait until another Country ploys this tactic..(yawns)

hawk2618
05-27-2012, 09:23 PM
But just look at the #1 Atheist country....SWEDEN, one of the most peaceful countries in the world.

High education rate and a great economy.

I don't see the connection between being atheist and being a peaceful place to live.Sweden has always been in the top 10 places to live long before atheist polls were conducted.I'm pretty sure its just a coincidence.

MadMan1978
05-27-2012, 09:43 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2149227/Gospel-Barnabas-cause-Christianitys-collapse-Iran-claims.html

First it appears most of you have gone off topic...

they can claim anything they wish

The bible claims a lot as well

Again all this book are written by MAN...

I would put little faith in it all and pay it less attention. Iran is like the lost child on the school yard. Yell a little louder and someone will pay attention to me.

OnePimpTiger
05-28-2012, 12:08 AM
Funny.....I though Christians were "Capitalists", and giving money to the poor is so SOCIALIST!

Others have already said it, but you (and many others) need to learn the difference between charity (a very important Christian tenet) and welfare (a government forced model of inefficiency).


LOL....I'm not even going to entertain this notion.

The Red cross is inefficient?

WOW!

Have you been to areas where the Red Cross is "helping?" After the massive earthquake in Haiti, the Red Cross was having dinner parties at their compound, getting drunk, picking up girls to go back to their bunks. The massive amounts of food they had collected to "help" was sitting in their warehouse, heavily guarded...not being distributed. My brother-in-law, a member of a Christian group that was helping clean up, rebuild, and passing out food, water, and supplies, actually went to them and asked if they could help distribute the food. He was soundly denied and the food sat in the warehouse while needy Haitians were starving. After this, my mom told me that my grandpa had said exactly the same thing about them...in World War II! Going back 60-70 years it has been the same story apparently. And my mother and father-in-law, who have been on many mission trips, said exactly the same thing. All actual experience of actual situations. The Red Cross has a good marketing team and that's about it...as far as their actual "mission," they're failing miserably.


Definitely.

For example, how did life begin?

Well, religion tells us God made us....out of nothing?

While science has it's theories on how life began (abiogenesis) which gives a naturalistic explanation without the need of the "supernatural".

Theory A: Something created life where it did not previously exist. Theory B: Life came about on its own where it did not previously exist. In both situations, life came about from non-life...yet one of those theories is ludicrous?

Apparently it bears repeating: Maybe one day people will realize that bigotry and narrow-mindedness go both ways...but I'm not holding my breath.

JustAlex
05-28-2012, 01:08 AM
Theory A: Something created life where it did not previously exist. Theory B: Life came about on its own where it did not previously exist. In both situations, life came about from non-life...yet one of those theories is ludicrous?

Apparently it bears repeating: Maybe one day people will realize that bigotry and narrow-mindedness go both ways...but I'm not holding my breath.

No...it's more like this:

Theory A An entity for which there is absolutely no proof of created life out of NOTHING!

Theory B: (Abiogenesis)......since I'm NOT an expert on this, I'll leave it to someone that knows a lot more than I do.

a7u-KsaBlbg

^A much better explanation!

OnePimpTiger
05-28-2012, 12:26 PM
No...it's more like this:

Theory A An entity for which there is absolutely no proof of created life out of NOTHING!

Theory B: (Abiogenesis)......since I'm NOT an expert on this, I'll leave it to someone that knows a lot more than I do.



^A much better explanation!

What proof is there of abiogenesis? Inferences made of what happened billions of years ago based on the current world and a couple of hundred years of data? In science, that's what they call an inconclusive data set and extreme extrapolation. Imagine what you like, but both are theories that have no proof.

And since you even quoted it and obviously didn't get the meaning...you do realize that saying anyone who believes in creationism is ignorant is just as close-minded as the person saying abiogensis is ignorant, right? Or are you better than most liberals and actually admit your close-mindedness?

shrewsbury
05-28-2012, 06:20 PM
there are older copies of gnostic and biblical gospels, so i guess that means Islam should be shaken to the core?

this is just another muslim poke at christians

JustAlex
05-28-2012, 10:22 PM
What proof is there of abiogenesis? Inferences made of what happened billions of years ago based on the current world and a couple of hundred years of data? In science, that's what they call an inconclusive data set and extreme extrapolation. Imagine what you like, but both are theories that have no proof.

And since you even quoted it and obviously didn't get the meaning...you do realize that saying anyone who believes in creationism is ignorant is just as close-minded as the person saying abiogensis is ignorant, right? Or are you better than most liberals and actually admit your close-mindedness?

Um....did you see the video I posted?

It shows there IS proof for abiogenesis.

Although to be honest it's not as great theory the way evolution is.

So NO, both theories are not based on ZERO proof.

Actually "Theory A" is NOT EVEN A THEORY....it's a belief system based on faith.

Theories are NOT based on faith.

OnePimpTiger
05-28-2012, 11:52 PM
Um....did you see the video I posted?

It shows there IS proof for abiogenesis.

Although to be honest it's not as great theory the way evolution is.

So NO, both theories are not based on ZERO proof.

Actually "Theory A" is NOT EVEN A THEORY....it's a belief system based on faith.

Theories are NOT based on faith.

What proof? That video is nothing but theories. Theories of what was around 3.7 billion years ago, theories how they came together, theories on how they formed life...what proof is there that any of that happened?

And yes, theories can be based on faith. Theories can be based on anything. Scientific theory is not based on faith, but creationism is not a scientific theory.

Believe what you want to believe, but don't be so naive as to think today's scientists have figured out what happened 3.7 billion years ago based on 100 years worth of analysis and that is the only possible explanation.

pghin08
05-29-2012, 10:40 AM
there are older copies of gnostic and biblical gospels, so i guess that means Islam should be shaken to the core?

this is just another muslim poke at christians

I'm inclined to agree. I don't trust anything the Iranian government says.

mrveggieman
05-29-2012, 10:40 AM
If I may jump in and add my two cents first of all take anything that comes in from the Iranian gov't with a grain of salt just like you would with the propaganda that comes from the US gov't or their right wing christian fanatics. Lets also assume for the sake of argument that the doccuments that the Iranians are referring to are legit. It dosen't change a thing. People are going to continue to believe what they believe. Until God himself comes down to earth and says which religion(s) are right and which religion(s) are false we will continue to have these debates.

shrewsbury
05-29-2012, 10:54 AM
if the book was was the 1st century it may have made me curious to look at it, but from the 5th century, well it's kind of late.

and animal skin makes it more legit? well the constitution is written on animal skin, and is only a few hundred years old.

Star_Cards
05-29-2012, 01:08 PM
I often wonder how much better this world would be with absolutely no religion.

I've wondered that before too. It's an intriguing idea to discuss. For my lack of belief there are lots of good that religion can bring to the table, but a lot of wars and issues do stem from religious differences. However, I will say that even if religious differences were no more, humans can always find things to fight over or to separate from one another. religion isn't the sole thing that divides people.

shrewsbury
05-29-2012, 03:17 PM
better or worse?

if you look at how many people have followed religion, the mass amount are average people, another part did much good, and a small part has done bad.

people who are fanatics will often have a religion to tie to, this is do to their nature not the fact they represent or even understand the religion they claim to be.

religion has done nothing, it is man who does the good, bad, and the ugly.

JustAlex
05-29-2012, 03:29 PM
better or worse?

if you look at how many people have followed religion, the mass amount are average people, another part did much good, and a small part has done bad.

people who are fanatics will often have a religion to tie to, this is do to their nature not the fact they represent or even understand the religion they claim to be.

religion has done nothing, it is man who does the good, bad, and the ugly.

This is the same as saying that guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Yes, we know that by itself religion is not harmful, but when people USE religion (e.g a person using a gun) then it COULD become harmful.

The inquisition, the crusades, and many wars in humanity were the direct cause of religious influence.

You might say that humans ultimately were behind it, but religion was the driving force.

Star_Cards
05-29-2012, 03:34 PM
better or worse?

if you look at how many people have followed religion, the mass amount are average people, another part did much good, and a small part has done bad.

people who are fanatics will often have a religion to tie to, this is do to their nature not the fact they represent or even understand the religion they claim to be.

religion has done nothing, it is man who does the good, bad, and the ugly.

good points. it's hard to say what differences there would be with it's absents. man will always more than find plenty of other things to fight about.

shrewsbury
05-29-2012, 06:00 PM
[QUOTE]This is the same as saying that guns don't kill people, people kill people.[QUOTE]

correct, so would the world be a better place if there were no guns?

JustAlex
05-29-2012, 08:12 PM
correct, so would the world be a better place if there were no guns?
Um...YES!

But that's my opinion...although logically it would make sense that guns are primarily used to HARM other humans not to protect them.

The only thing I can use to back it up is the fact that countries where guns are banned such as Japan have very low crime rates and obviously almost ZERO gun violence.

Meanwhile Trigger happy USA has one of the highest deaths rates by guns in the entire world.

JustAlex
05-29-2012, 08:20 PM
BTW, before you read to much into my previous comment....NO, I'm not saying we should ban guns in the U.S or religion.....although I personally DO believe we would be a more efficient and better country without either.

I will use Japan as an example again, they are a very atheistic country that bans guns, and just look at their society:

> Very low crime rates
> Very High educational rates
> A great economy
> Very technological literate (A LOT better than the U.S)
> Produces great products such as economically sound cars and long lasting electronics

AND the best stat of them all:

> One of the HIGHEST life expectancy rate in the world.

MadMan1978
05-29-2012, 08:35 PM
I ask now ...what does this have to do with the original post?

JustAlex
05-29-2012, 09:10 PM
I ask now ...what does this have to do with the original post?

Yes I know, it doesn't have anything to do with the original post.

It's very hard to stay on topic, especially when we're talking about religion.

NattyBoo
05-29-2012, 09:31 PM
It seems followers of religion have stopped looking for answers and have accepted the writings of men who died thousands of years ago.

How old are the laws in Canada?
Were they written by men?
Do you follow them?

habsheaven
05-29-2012, 09:39 PM
How old are the laws in Canada?
Were they written by men?
Do you follow them?

Are you trying to be funny, or make a point? You didn't accomplish either. Try again.

JustAlex
05-29-2012, 10:22 PM
How old are the laws in Canada?
Were they written by men?
Do you follow them?

OK, let me explain the big difference between man made laws and the bible.

The laws of Canada, U.S, and practically ANY developed country are ALWAYS subject to change.

In our constitution this is called an "Amendment"...

However, the bible stays the same ALWAYS.

I've heard many christians boast about this:

"The word of god (the bible) is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow".


Our laws are ever changing....case in point:

Slavery used to be legal.....we later saw the huge error of our ways and took that away permanently.

Let's look at a law from the bible:

"And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him." Leviticus 24:16


As far as I know, this is STILL the "word of god" and since the bible "doesn't change".....why are christians not killing people who are blasphemers?

NattyBoo
05-30-2012, 12:03 AM
why are christians not killing people who are blasphemers?


Reminds me of a Charles Bronson movie.

AUTaxMan
05-30-2012, 12:28 AM
As far as I know, this is STILL the "word of god" and since the bible "doesn't change".....why are christians not killing people who are blasphemers?

As a self-procaimed former Christian, how do you not know that the old Mosaic laws are no longer applicable?

JustAlex
05-30-2012, 03:48 AM
As a self-procaimed former Christian, how do you not know that the old Mosaic laws are no longer applicable?

Yes, I know that's what SOME christians say, but you are still "cherry picking".

Which laws are applicable and which are not?

Are the Ten Commandments (Which are in the OT) still applicable?

If all the OT laws are no longer valid, then why do some christians still have a problem with gays?

MANY times Christians still go back to the OT to defend their position of being Anti-gay marriage....why?

That law is supposedly no longer applicable, therefore none of you guys should have a problem with gays or gay marriage.


Why do some christians continue to cherry pick which laws they should obey and which laws they can say "that's no longer applicable".

shrewsbury
05-30-2012, 09:23 AM
justalex, your knowledge of the new testament is lacking, otherwise you would know about jesus and the commandments, again you are back to jews and muslims, ask them.

did jesus stone people? do you know what happened when jesus came acrossed someone being stoned?

people will use anything they can to try to legitimize their hatred, the bible is not excluded from this

and it also seems you love to cherry pick, you always go back to evolution but still do not acknowledge there is holes in there, big holes.

habsheaven
05-30-2012, 09:39 AM
So do Christians own Bibles now, or just the New Testament?

mrveggieman
05-30-2012, 09:45 AM
So do Christians own Bibles now, or just the New Testament?


I actually saw books with only psalms and the NT. I always wondered what is the purpose of that?

shrewsbury
05-30-2012, 10:33 AM
i can't speak for others but you can just get everything online now, no need to own one. but yes i own several and they do have the OT and NT in them. that's how the council set them up and they have been that way for 700+ years now.

habsheaven
05-30-2012, 11:13 AM
i can't speak for others but you can just get everything online now, no need to own one. but yes i own several and they do have the OT and NT in them. that's how the council set them up and they have been that way for 700+ years now.

From being on these boards I am getting the impression that true christians (followers of Christ) basically ignore the OT so why do they continue to include it in the "everyday" bible that is still being printed and distributed to these christians?

Any thoughts?

mrveggieman
05-30-2012, 11:19 AM
i can't speak for others but you can just get everything online now, no need to own one. but yes i own several and they do have the OT and NT in them. that's how the council set them up and they have been that way for 700+ years now.


That's cool and all but what's the point of printing up and incomplete bible? It's like they are saying just throw out the OT except for psalms because it's completely useless.

mrveggieman
05-30-2012, 11:24 AM
From being on these boards I am getting the impression that true christians (followers of Christ) basically ignore the OT so why do they continue to include it in the "everyday" bible that is still being printed and distributed to these christians?

Any thoughts?


That's an excellent point. It makes me wonder does Revelation 22:19 (http://scripturetext.com/revelation/22-20.htm)"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book." only apply to the NT? If so why even acknowledge the OT at all?

PDawson21
05-30-2012, 11:27 AM
From being on these boards I am getting the impression that true christians (followers of Christ) basically ignore the OT so why do they continue to include it in the "everyday" bible that is still being printed and distributed to these christians?

Any thoughts?


The OT isn't useless by any means. It may be the "old covenant" but it is quite helpful. The account of creation among others are contained here as well as the prophecies of a Messiah coming as well, which happens in the NT. There is ALOT to be learned form the OT and shouldn't be just cast aside. It's a great way to see the fulfillment in the NT. If you don't have the OT, then the NT wouldn't make a lot of sense.

shrewsbury
05-30-2012, 11:42 AM
From being on these boards I am getting the impression that true christians (followers of Christ) basically ignore the OT so why do they continue to include it in the "everyday" bible that is still being printed and distributed to these christians?

Any thoughts?

it's just the way it is printed

veggieman, that is only relevant to the book of revelations.

pdawson, i have enough issues trying to learn from the NT and other writings, not enough time to deal with the OT as well.

PDawson21
05-30-2012, 11:45 AM
it's just the way it is printed

veggieman, that is only relevant to the book of revelations.

pdawson, i have enough issues trying to learn from the NT and other writings, not enough time to deal with the OT as well.


It definitely takes time, I have taken OT/NT classes at school (Southeastern Baptist Theological Sem. (SEBTS) Both are necessary for a full understanding of scripture IMO. Both the OT/NT point to Jesus.

mrveggieman
05-30-2012, 11:53 AM
PDawson21 and Shresbury you both make some good points but I'm still concened whenever someone points something out in the OT and are told in no uncertian terms I ignore that because I prefer what the NT says about the issue. If both the OT and NT ultimately point to Jesus you cant dismiss any part of them without dissmissing the entire bible.

PDawson21
05-30-2012, 12:13 PM
PDawson21 and Shresbury you both make some good points but I'm still concened whenever someone points something out in the OT and are told in no uncertian terms I ignore that because I prefer what the NT says about the issue. If both the OT and NT ultimately point to Jesus you cant dismiss any part of them without dissmissing the entire bible.

It depends on what you are talking about, do you have a specific example?

For example, in the OT, the people made sacrifices to God, but since Jesus came and paid the ultimate price for our sins, we no longer sacrifice things to God because Jesus was the sacrifice, if that makes sense?

habsheaven
05-30-2012, 12:32 PM
It definitely takes time, I have taken OT/NT classes at school (Southeastern Baptist Theological Sem. (SEBTS) Both are necessary for a full understanding of scripture IMO. Both the OT/NT point to Jesus.

I'm curious. What does a discussion about Noah's Ark at SEBTS look like? Does anyone in attendance truly question the plausibility of the claim? And if so, how does the instructor explain it?

PDawson21
05-30-2012, 12:33 PM
I'm curious. What does a discussion about Noah's Ark at SEBTS look like? Does anyone in attendance truly question the plausibility of the claim? And if so, how does the instructor explain it?


As in defending that it actually happened?

shrewsbury
05-30-2012, 12:41 PM
i don't agree that you need the OT to understand the teachings of jesus, his teachings are what is important. even the NT is full of someone else's interpretation of what jesus taught, not his actual teachings.

mrveggieman
05-30-2012, 01:10 PM
It depends on what you are talking about, do you have a specific example?

For example, in the OT, the people made sacrifices to God, but since Jesus came and paid the ultimate price for our sins, we no longer sacrifice things to God because Jesus was the sacrifice, if that makes sense?


Let's use my favorite verse in the OT Genesis 1:29

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.


According to that God's preferred diet for mankind would be vegetarianism/veganism. Now I know you want to counter and say Jesus said in the NT I could eat/drink anything that I like as long as I pray over it. If so why not drink alcohol? Why not eat unlimited sugar if you have diabeties? Why not eat all the pork chops and chiterlings if you have high blood pressure and heart problems and just pray over it? Obviously God knows what is best for us to eat and drink and I highly doubt that he would put our preferred diet in the OT only to change his mind in the NT and tell us to eat and drink whatever the hell we want and be merry.

PDawson21
05-30-2012, 01:28 PM
Let's use my favorite verse in the OT Genesis 1:29

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.


According to that God's preferred diet for mankind would be vegetarianism/veganism. Now I know you want to counter and say Jesus said in the NT I could eat/drink anything that I like as long as I pray over it. If so why not drink alcohol? Why not eat unlimited sugar if you have diabeties? Why not eat all the pork chops and chiterlings if you have high blood pressure and heart problems and just pray over it? Obviously God knows what is best for us to eat and drink and I highly doubt that he would put our preferred diet in the OT only to change his mind in the NT and tell us to eat and drink whatever the hell we want and be merry.

My response to that specific example would be Genesis 9:3, after the flood, God said "3 Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you.Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything."

Now as far as the praying over before you eat it and making it okay. Partially correct, you should pray over everything yes, but you shouldn't eat or drink in excess of anything.

"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body," (1 Cor. 6:19-20)

Does that mean you absolutely cannot drink alcohol? Personally, my standpoint is that alcohol is not really helpful in any way, so why drink it? (PERSONAL OPINION) But I don't think you should get drunk. But honestly the same argument could be made for a cheeseburger. One isn't as bad as 100 of them if you catch my drift.

Basically my response is, in Genesis 9:3, after the flood. Meat was introduced. As far as a diet, you should treat your body as a temple, and not want to harm it and give thanks for it before you eat or drink.

mrveggieman
05-30-2012, 01:32 PM
My response to that specific example would be Genesis 9:3, after the flood, God said "3 Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you.Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything."





Does it really mean everything? If so why not eat the guy who drops dead walking down the street? Why do we as americans laugh at other countries who eat dogs and cats? Why do some branches of christanity (adventist for example) prohibit eating pork and discourage meat all together?

PDawson21
05-30-2012, 01:40 PM
Does it really mean everything? If so why not eat the guy who drops dead walking down the street? Why do we as americans laugh at other countries who eat dogs and cats? Why do some branches of christanity (adventist for example) prohibit eating pork and discourage meat all together?

I think you can take cannibalism out with Genesis 9 as well. The passage prohibits cannibalism in two ways, first in that it does not give mankind permission to eat human flesh. Secondly, it clearly states that mankind was created in the image of God and has greater honor than the animals, and because of this he is to be treated in a manner reflecting that distinction.

As far and cats and dogs, well I just think that is something that our culture has imposed, not Christianity. (I wouldn't eat a cat or dog regardless, even though I am skeptical of some Chinese resturaunts :pound:)

As far as the pork or meat all together. Again, that would be considered the old covenant diet, IMO. I don't have a ton of knowledge off the top of my head on what verses they look at and why they believe it applies today. Sorry.

shrewsbury
05-30-2012, 02:39 PM
here is one of my favorite quotes about eating and drinking, though many christians will not accept it


For what goes into your mouth will not defile you, but that which issues from your mouth - it is that which will defile you."

mrveggieman
05-30-2012, 03:01 PM
here is one of my favorite quotes about eating and drinking, though many christians will not accept it


I get the point of that. It basically says to watch what comes out of your mouth. The power of life and death lies in the tounge and your words are capable of doing a lot of damage. I doubt that it was a liscence to eat whatever you want or to drink alcohol.

PDawson21
05-30-2012, 03:11 PM
I get the point of that. It basically says to watch what comes out of your mouth. The power of life and death lies in the tounge and your words are capable of doing a lot of damage. I doubt that it was a liscence to eat whatever you want or to drink alcohol.

Exactly. James 2 I think deals with your "tongue"

shrewsbury
05-30-2012, 03:12 PM
kind of, here is the context of it


Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will give rise to sin for yourselves; and if you pray, you will be condemned; and if you give alms, you will do harm to your spirits. When you go into any land and walk about in the districts, if they receive you, eat what they will set before you, and heal the sick among them. For what goes into your mouth will not defile you, but that which issues from your mouth - it is that which will defile you."

PDawson21
05-30-2012, 03:15 PM
kind of, here is the context of it

Book, chapter, verse?

shrewsbury
05-30-2012, 03:18 PM
i can give you the information, but you will not like it, nor take it for its word, it is not in the NT

PDawson21
05-30-2012, 03:20 PM
Is it in the Bible or not? Or is it in "a lost gospel"

mrveggieman
05-30-2012, 03:20 PM
kind of, here is the context of it


What is the exact verse you are quoting?

shrewsbury
05-30-2012, 03:30 PM
some will call it one of the "lost gospels" some will call it gnostic, but to me this is for people who haven't really looked into it nor the bible.

this is from the gospel of thomas, and before you faint, let me say, does not anyone besides me find it strange that certain people were left out of the NT? and when you read the parts that are left (not the coptic version) you see why the church did not want it around, because you don't need a church to lead you to christ or to get salvation

shrewsbury
05-30-2012, 03:30 PM
some will call it one of the "lost gospels" some will call it gnostic, but to me this is for people who haven't really looked into it nor the bible.

this is from the gospel of thomas, and before you faint, let me say, does not anyone besides me find it strange that certain people were left out of the NT? and when you read the parts that are left (not the coptic version) you see why the church did not want it around, because you don't need a church to lead you to christ or to get salvation

PDawson21
05-30-2012, 03:35 PM
Where does it say in the Bible a church has to lead you to salvation or a going to church earns salvation?

shrewsbury
05-30-2012, 03:49 PM
i won't step on any toes about tidings and hail mary's and many other things the church does to keep a stronghold on people (no not every church)

PDawson21
05-30-2012, 03:55 PM
Im not a Catholic, nor do I believe in works getting you into heaven.

mrveggieman
05-30-2012, 04:05 PM
some will call it one of the "lost gospels" some will call it gnostic, but to me this is for people who haven't really looked into it nor the bible.

this is from the gospel of thomas, and before you faint, let me say, does not anyone besides me find it strange that certain people were left out of the NT? and when you read the parts that are left (not the coptic version) you see why the church did not want it around, because you don't need a church to lead you to christ or to get salvation


I have heard of that book before and am aware that there could be "lost gospels" I would be interested in hearing more.

JustAlex
05-30-2012, 04:05 PM
You guys (Christians) can dance around it (OT) all you want but you WILL NOT ESCAPE IT!

The OT stays, and the majority of christians still believe word for word everything that is in it.

There's NOTHING you guys can do, this is what you get for placing your trust in a book that was written by MEN not god.

The bible is far from perfect, it's NOT scientific, it's NOT accurate, and it's mostly NOT true.


If the Bible were really "inspired by god" then it wouldn't have all the mistakes that it does, especially in the OT!

mrveggieman
05-30-2012, 04:06 PM
I think you can take cannibalism out with Genesis 9 as well. The passage prohibits cannibalism in two ways, first in that it does not give mankind permission to eat human flesh. Secondly, it clearly states that mankind was created in the image of God and has greater honor than the animals, and because of this he is to be treated in a manner reflecting that distinction.

As far and cats and dogs, well I just think that is something that our culture has imposed, not Christianity. (I wouldn't eat a cat or dog regardless, even though I am skeptical of some Chinese resturaunts :pound:)

As far as the pork or meat all together. Again, that would be considered the old covenant diet, IMO. I don't have a ton of knowledge off the top of my head on what verses they look at and why they believe it applies today. Sorry.

Also I would be interesting in hearing your or anyone else's thoughts and opinions on the information provided on this website:

http://www.jesusveg.com/

PDawson21
05-30-2012, 04:14 PM
You guys (Christians) can dance around it (OT) all you want but you WILL NOT ESCAPE IT!

The OT stays, and the majority of christians still believe word for word everything that is in it.

There's NOTHING you guys can do, this is what you get for placing your trust in a book that was written by MEN not god.

The bible is far from perfect, it's NOT scientific, it's NOT accurate, and it's mostly NOT true.


If the Bible were really "inspired by god" then it wouldn't have all the mistakes that it does, especially in the OT!

Oh wise one, please enlighten me with all these mistakes you have found? Also, just for kicks, why haven't we found Jesus' bones?

PDawson21
05-30-2012, 04:16 PM
Also I would be interesting in hearing your or anyone else's thoughts and opinions on the information provided on this website:

http://www.jesusveg.com/

Interesting website, I think animals should be treated ethically for sure. But that is all I see that website argues for? If they are not treated ethically then we shouldn't eat them? Is that correct(as in what the website is about)?

mrveggieman
05-30-2012, 04:17 PM
Interesting website, I think animals should be treated ethically for sure. But that is all I see that website argues for? If they are not treated ethically then we shouldn't eat them? Is that correct(as in what the website is about)?


The website not only calls for the ethical treatment for animals but we should not eat them and it also suggests that Jesus himself was a vegetarian.

PDawson21
05-30-2012, 04:21 PM
The website not only calls for the ethical treatment for animals but we should not eat them and it also suggests that Jesus himself was a vegetarian.

Interesting. Hmm, ill be doing some reading.

JustAlex
05-30-2012, 04:36 PM
Oh wise one, please enlighten me with all these mistakes you have found? Also, just for kicks, why haven't we found Jesus' bones?

Sure, I'd be glad to point out some mistakes:

> Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes.

> God makes two lights: "the greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the night." But the moon is not a light, but only reflects light from the sun. And why, if God made the moon to "rule the night", does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky?

> In Genesis 1 the entire creation takes 6 days, but the universe is at least 12 billion years old, with new stars constantly being formed

> God fashions a woman out of one of Adam's ribs....What?!?!

> God curses the serpent. From now on the serpent will crawl on his belly and eat dust. But snakes don't eat dust, do they?

^These are only a few mistakes from Genesis, there are TONS of mistakes in the bible....if you want to read more, here you go:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/science/long.html

shrewsbury
05-30-2012, 04:38 PM
veggieman, i will send you a pm later for some links and some personal thoughts on it

pdawson21, i am glad to here that!

boba
05-30-2012, 04:43 PM
Oh wise one, please enlighten me with all these mistakes you have found? Also, just for kicks, why haven't we found Jesus' bones?

Save yourself a lot of trouble-head scratching and add him to the old block list


Also I would be interesting in hearing your or anyone else's thoughts and opinions on the information provided on this website:

http://www.jesusveg.com/


I'll have to check that site out further when I get home tonight, thanks for the link.

Off the top of my head I think there are scriptures about Jesus eating fish, I'm not sure about this, but I do know he served fish.

JustAlex
05-30-2012, 04:47 PM
Save yourself a lot of trouble-head scratching and add him to the old block list

WOW....that says it all right there.

Instead of facing me and having a discourse you would rather "block me" because you KNOW you can't stand up to the scrutiny I bring to the bible and your comments.

Just wow!

PDawson21
05-30-2012, 04:50 PM
Sure, I'd be glad to point out some mistakes:

> Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes.

> God makes two lights: "the greater light [the sun] to rule the day, and the lesser light [the moon] to rule the night." But the moon is not a light, but only reflects light from the sun. And why, if God made the moon to "rule the night", does it spend half of its time moving through the daytime sky?

How exactly does it spend half its time in the daytime sky? And it provides light, whether a reflection or not, right? If i feel like going deeper on these, ill do it later. Don't have all the time at the moment.

> In Genesis 1 the entire creation takes 6 days, but the universe is at least 12 billion years old, with new stars constantly being formed

Our sense of time and God's sense of time are different, but anyway, there is an old-earth creation and new-earth idea as well. READ

> God fashions a woman out of one of Adam's ribs....What?!?!

> God curses the serpent. From now on the serpent will crawl on his belly and eat dust. But snakes don't eat dust, do they?

Everything, even humans, will eventually turn to dust at some point after death. I see you are taking quite a literal approach to scripture with no interpretation whatsoever in any context?

^These are only a few mistakes from Genesis, there are TONS of mistakes in the bible....if you want to read more, here you go:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/science/long.html

skeptics annotated bible---I rest my case. --REALLY?

But let me try to address some of these off the top of my head.

PDawson21
05-30-2012, 04:51 PM
WOW....that says it all right there.

Instead of facing me and having a discourse you would rather "block me" because you KNOW you can't stand up to the scrutiny I bring to the bible and your comments.

Just wow!

Probably for the fact if we proved you wrong you wouldn't believe anyone anyway, so whats the point?

mrveggieman
05-30-2012, 04:52 PM
@ Shrewsbury I look fwd to your pm
@Just Alex as far as the the earth being created in 6 days I don't believe that it was literally 6 days (a day bibilically speaking could mean an age which can be anywhere from 1 day to 1 billion years or more) just like I don't believe the earth is only 6000 years. Again that is only my beliefs and opinons and I am not speaking on behalf of any particular religion or viewpoint.

JustAlex
05-30-2012, 04:52 PM
Probably for the fact if we proved you wrong you wouldn't believe anyone anyway, so whats the point?

If you prove me wrong, I'll admit it and say I was wrong!

Believe me, I have no problems saying I'm wrong....

However, other people on here don't share the same thinking.

JustAlex
05-30-2012, 04:54 PM
@Just Alex as far as the the earth being created in 6 days I don't believe that it was literally 6 days (a day bibilically speaking could mean an age which can be anywhere from 1 day to 1 billion years or more) just like I don't believe the earth is only 6000 years. Again that is only my beliefs and opinons and I am not speaking on behalf of any particular religion or viewpoint.

Ok, but if ONE biblical day is millions of years.....than how did plants and other vegetation survive without a sun?

Plants were made BEFORE the sun!

mrveggieman
05-30-2012, 04:59 PM
Ok, but if ONE biblical day is millions of years.....than how did plants and other vegetation survive without a sun?

Plants were made BEFORE the sun!


Good question. I will be the first to admit I don't know. Anyone want to chime in?

PDawson21
05-30-2012, 05:00 PM
Genesis 1:
And God said,(J) “Let there be light,” and there was light.(K) 4 God saw that the light was good,(L) and he separated the light from the darkness.(M) 5 God called(N) the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.”(O) And there was evening, and there was morning(P)—the first day.

There is already "light", before the plants.

JustAlex
05-30-2012, 05:04 PM
There is already "light", before the plants.

Ok, fair enough....but what is this "light"?

It's NOT the sun since that was made in day 4, and as far as I know, the ONLY natural light that exists is from the sun and the other stars.

PDawson21
05-30-2012, 05:07 PM
Why couldn't it be the sun?

It was possibly distinguished as the sun and moon in day 4. I haven't done enough to justify that point, but that is what popped in my head.

JustAlex
05-30-2012, 05:12 PM
Why couldn't it be the sun?

It was possibly distinguished as the sun and moon in day 4. I haven't done enough to justify that point, but that is what popped in my head.

Well, I don't know either, I'm only going from what I can read from the bible.

Either way, it seems to be a huge question mark.

God created "light" on the first day, but he created the sun (the source of light) on day 4....was this "light" himself perhaps?

Did god create himself on the first day?

That would at the very least answer the question "who created god?"

But of course it sounds like a very weird response to say God created himself.

PDawson21
05-30-2012, 05:19 PM
No, God didn't create himself on the first day. I know that much. No-one created God, God has always existed.

mrveggieman
05-30-2012, 05:20 PM
No, God didn't create himself on the first day. I know that much. No-one created God, God has always existed.


I do agree with you on that but the skeptics bring up a very intersting question of where God came from.

PDawson21
05-30-2012, 05:22 PM
Of course, but I can't explain and neither can anyone else, so thats where faith comes in. as TaxMAN said, eternal.

AUTaxMan
05-30-2012, 05:24 PM
Well, I don't know either, I'm only going from what I can read from the bible.

Either way, it seems to be a huge question mark.

God created "light" on the first day, but he created the sun (the source of light) on day 4....was this "light" himself perhaps?

Did god create himself on the first day?

That would at the very least answer the question "who created god?"

But of course it sounds like a very weird response to say God created himself.

God is eternal. He was not created.

As to your question about the light, you cannot definitively say that the Bible is fallible or contradictory on the issue, can you?

habsheaven
05-30-2012, 06:10 PM
God is eternal. He was not created.

As to your question about the light, you cannot definitively say that the Bible is fallible or contradictory on the issue, can you?

I think I solved it!!!!!

Forget the Big Bang theory or God for that matter!!!

The universe is ETERNAL, nothing created it.

Glad we got that figured out finally.

stlcardinalsfan
05-30-2012, 06:26 PM
was it just me or did the whole artical repeat its self like 3 or 4 times. total bs imo

AUTaxMan
05-30-2012, 07:16 PM
I think I solved it!!!!!

Forget the Big Bang theory or God for that matter!!!

The universe is ETERNAL, nothing created it.

Glad we got that figured out finally.

Nobody said the universe was eternal.

boba
05-30-2012, 07:28 PM
In the end, something had to be eternal, I believe it was God.

habsheaven
05-30-2012, 09:05 PM
Nobody said the universe was eternal.


Don't be trying to steal my thunder. I said the universe was eternal.:wave:

shrewsbury
05-31-2012, 09:37 AM
obviously no one knows where god came from, but this is no different in evolution not being able to explain the origins of life.

but every reaction starts with an action and where does/did that origin action begin?

even the big bang theory has a few flaws, such as an explanation of where anything came from that created everything how did space and time begin with nothing?

habsheaven
05-31-2012, 09:55 AM
obviously no one knows where god came from, but this is no different in evolution not being able to explain the origins of life.

but every reaction starts with an action and where does/did that origin action begin?

even the big bang theory has a few flaws, such as an explanation of where anything came from that created everything how did space and time begin with nothing?

I agree. That's why I don't dismiss the belief in a "God" or a "Big Bang". I just don't know how it all began. What I do dismiss is the notion of a God as described in religious scripture.

mrveggieman
05-31-2012, 10:08 AM
I remember in college in philosophy class my teacher posed an interesting question. Does God/Allah/Jehova/Jesus etc have to power to create an object so heavy that even he cannot lift it? Why or why not?

PDawson21
05-31-2012, 10:15 AM
I remember in college in philosophy class my teacher posed an interesting question. Does God/Allah/Jehova/Jesus etc have to power to create an object so heavy that even he cannot lift it? Why or why not?

Haha, I was waiting for this question to pop up.

God can create a rock of tremendous size, but, since He is all-powerful, He will always be able to lift it. The ability to fail is not a part of omnipotence. The Bible makes it clear that God is able to do anything He wants to, and that nothing He wants to do is too difficult for Him to accomplish. This is the true meaning of omnipotence.

habsheaven
05-31-2012, 10:46 AM
Why would He want to lift it? And if God is that powerful, why does He ALLOW anything EVIL to happen? What is the PURPOSE of unleashing tornados on innocent people living in the Bible belt.

PDawson21
05-31-2012, 11:01 AM
Whats the purpose of evil?

I can give a longer answer later, but I look at Romans 8:28 for starters, if i don't post by tonight, just shoot me a pm if you want to hear my answer.

God is working for MY good and HIS glory.

mrveggieman
05-31-2012, 11:11 AM
Here's Romans 8:28 from the KJV for anyone who is interested:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

PDawson21
05-31-2012, 11:12 AM
Here's Romans 8:28 from the KJV for anyone who is interested:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Thanks, will post the rest of my answer later about the purpose of evil.

habsheaven
05-31-2012, 11:23 AM
Here's Romans 8:28 from the KJV for anyone who is interested:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

I am going to need an interpretation as to what this is actually saying.

ensbergcollector
05-31-2012, 11:35 AM
for God to stop all evil would require him to take away free will. once free will is taken away, then those who follow him are not doing so out of choice but out of requirement. No one wants to be required to follow or worship anyone.

habsheaven
05-31-2012, 11:59 AM
for God to stop all evil would require him to take away free will. once free will is taken away, then those who follow him are not doing so out of choice but out of requirement. No one wants to be required to follow or worship anyone.

Sure, but what about natural disasters that kill thousands of innocent people every year. There is no free will involved in these events.

ensbergcollector
05-31-2012, 12:07 PM
Sure, but what about natural disasters that kill thousands of innocent people every year. There is no free will involved in these events.

i honestly don't have a good answer for that. i could speculate but that is all it would be.

PDawson21
05-31-2012, 12:10 PM
i honestly don't have a good answer for that. i could speculate but that is all it would be.

God said, “Cursed shall be the ground because of you” (Gen. 3:17). Paul explains, “The creation was subjected to futility” (Rom. 8:19), and it awaits its rebirth in the coming resurrection. We may point our fingers at God, but the reality is that we are to blame: it is sin’s profound effects that have caused the very fabric of nature to be cursed. This results in rust on metal pipes, in weeds growing in gardens, in little boys and girls growing old until their bodies become lifeless, and in great, violent waves tragically silencing voices by the thousands. “The wages of sin is death,” Paul wrote (Rom. 6:23), and we should respond to disasters not by hating God but by hating sin.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

habsheaven
05-31-2012, 12:18 PM
God said, “Cursed shall be the ground because of you” (Gen. 3:17). Paul explains, “The creation was subjected to futility” (Rom. 8:19), and it awaits its rebirth in the coming resurrection. We may point our fingers at God, but the reality is that we are to blame: it is sin’s profound effects that have caused the very fabric of nature to be cursed. This results in rust on metal pipes, in weeds growing in gardens, in little boys and girls growing old until their bodies become lifeless, and in great, violent waves tragically silencing voices by the thousands. “The wages of sin is death,” Paul wrote (Rom. 6:23), and we should respond to disasters not by hating God but by hating sin.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I thought Jesus died for our sins? Yet, you tell me that nature is cursed with evil because of our sins?

I have a hard time believing that a tsunami that wipes out 100,000 people is my fault, when there is a God out there with the capability to stop it from ever happening. Curse or no curse, God could have and should have prevented such a natural disaster.

ensbergcollector
05-31-2012, 12:21 PM
I thought Jesus died for our sins? Yet, you tell me that nature is cursed with evil because of our sins?

I have a hard time believing that a tsunami that wipes out 100,000 people is my fault, when there is a God out there with the capability to stop it from ever happening. Curse or no curse, God could have and should have prevented such a natural disaster.

question, since you are willing to blame God for evil that takes place, are you willing to give him credit for the good?

habsheaven
05-31-2012, 12:31 PM
question, since you are willing to blame God for evil that takes place, are you willing to give him credit for the good?

I am not willing to blame God for anything that takes place in the world, good or evil. As I already stated; if a God exists, I do not believe He would be playing any part in the day-to-day activities. I ask the questions in hopes of getting some insight into why believers in God feel He plays such a role. It only seems natural to wonder why He would allow horrible things to happen if He has the ability to prevent them.

AUTaxMan
05-31-2012, 01:05 PM
I thought Jesus died for our sins? Yet, you tell me that nature is cursed with evil because of our sins?

I have a hard time believing that a tsunami that wipes out 100,000 people is my fault, when there is a God out there with the capability to stop it from ever happening. Curse or no curse, God could have and should have prevented such a natural disaster.

I always just thought it had to do God's not micro-managing the laws of physics.

habsheaven
05-31-2012, 01:15 PM
I always just thought it had to do God's not micro-managing the laws of physics.

Apparently that is true, but why? If He can take the time to perform any number of small miracles to save a single life here and there, why would He not save 100's of thousands of lives by altering His laws of physics.

JustAlex
05-31-2012, 02:10 PM
What I do dismiss is the notion of a God as described in religious scripture.

Ding, ding, ding!!!

We have a winner!!!!


About Natural Disasters:

If God controls these phenomenons, can anyone here please explain WHY earthquakes only occur in fault lines?

Or why Hurricanes only form in the Tropics?

Or why Tornadoes are usually in the middle of the country?

mrveggieman
05-31-2012, 02:13 PM
Ding, ding, ding!!!

We have a winner!!!!


About Natural Disasters:

If God controls these phenomenons, can anyone here please explain WHY earthquakes only occur in fault lines?

Or why Hurricanes only form in the Tropics?

Or why Tornadoes are usually in the middle of the country?


I'm not sure about hurrincanes or tornadoes but they have been instances of earthquakes happening in unusual places.

JustAlex
05-31-2012, 02:17 PM
I'm not sure about hurrincanes or tornadoes but they have been instances of earthquakes happening in unusual places.

Well, I'll agree that that sometimes does occur...

However, the very strong earthquakes usually occur in the "Ring of Fire"...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/52/Pacific_Ring_of_Fire.svg/800px-Pacific_Ring_of_Fire.svg.png

shrewsbury
05-31-2012, 02:35 PM
who said god creates natural disasters?

we have us and nature to deal with.

no different than a child who grows into a bad person, this is not always the fault of the parent. if your child (whether grown or not) steals something is it because you taught them to steal? most times not

habsheaven
05-31-2012, 03:04 PM
who said god creates natural disasters?

we have us and nature to deal with.

no different than a child who grows into a bad person, this is not always the fault of the parent. if your child (whether grown or not) steals something is it because you taught them to steal? most times not

I don't think anyone said God creates natural disasters, although if He created everything then He must have created the environment that creates them. My question is; why doesn't He change that system so that they won't occur, or prevent them when they are about to occur?

shrewsbury
05-31-2012, 04:08 PM
why?

habsheaven
05-31-2012, 06:40 PM
why?

So that there is a little less misery in the world He created. For an entity of unlimited power the better question is; why not?

shrewsbury
05-31-2012, 08:46 PM
that's human misery not godly

death is part of our lives and though it hurts to have loved ones die, and even sucks to see and hear about anyone dieing, it is still a part of life

if god came down and helped, then people like us would not have free will and people like you wouldn't have the freedom you have to believe what you want

habsheaven
05-31-2012, 08:54 PM
that's human misery not godly

death is part of our lives and though it hurts to have loved ones die, and even sucks to see and hear about anyone dieing, it is still a part of life

if god came down and helped, then people like us would not have free will and people like you wouldn't have the freedom you have to believe what you want

Please explain what "free will" has to do with being killed in a natural disaster?

shrewsbury
05-31-2012, 09:50 PM
our death is not a decided fate god has made for us, we can die in many ways and in any way.

with the universe and natural (even supernatural) forces at work, anything can and will happen.

i personally don't think god created the earth to such an extent that he planned everything that would naturally occur. he didn't kill off the dinosaurs, cause an ice age, or a solar flare, what happens, happens. it is not beyond god's control, but rather something he lets unfold and does not interfere with.

many have claimed god helped them and/or saved their life, i would think not, but who i am to say they are wrong?

[QUOTE]Please explain what "free will" has to do with being killed in a natural disaster?[QUOTE]

free will equals free destiny
free will equals anything goes
free will equals anything can happen
free will equals no interference by god

habsheaven
05-31-2012, 10:05 PM
our death is not a decided fate god has made for us, we can die in many ways and in any way.

with the universe and natural (even supernatural) forces at work, anything can and will happen.

i personally don't think god created the earth to such an extent that he planned everything that would naturally occur. he didn't kill off the dinosaurs, cause an ice age, or a solar flare, what happens, happens. it is not beyond god's control, but rather something he lets unfold and does not interfere with.

many have claimed god helped them and/or saved their life, i would think not, but who i am to say they are wrong?

[quote]Please explain what "free will" has to do with being killed in a natural disaster?[quote]

free will equals free destiny
free will equals anything goes
free will equals anything can happen
free will equals no interference by god

Okay, I see what you are saying now. Thanks.

JustAlex
06-01-2012, 12:01 AM
"Free will", what exactly is that?


Premise #1....God knows exactly what will happen in your life before it happens.

Premise #2....God supposedly gives me free will.

Premise #3.....Supposedly there are only two destinations in the afterlife, and supposedly we have the "free will" to choose which destination we want to go.

Premise #4.....If God already knows I will die and go to hell, did I ever really have "free will"?


Layman's terms.....If I give you a choice between two boxes, one contains a million dollars the other contains one dollar, am I really giving you a choice if I already know what you're going to choose?