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DunkingDurant35
05-26-2012, 10:58 PM
Many in the agnostic and atheistic camps think religion should die, or will die.

As a theist myself, I understand people can be ethical without religion, and that people with religion can be unethical. So what drives me back to religion? (I was agnostic in my late teens and early twenties.)

Bottom line: if this life is all there is, if there is no purpose behind its creation (it just "happened"), then it's essentially meaningless beyond the meaning we ourselves give it. Think about it: every life, yours or someone else's in another country hundreds of years ago, is no more special than the grass you see in your yard: it grows a short time, dies, and then is forgotten.

When we look at our lives, the lives of others, the course of human history, the world around us, and the much greater universe beyond our mere planet, we have to marvel. And when we think about what it all could mean, we have to be honest and admit there is so much we don't know - we are like mere specks of sand on a beach so large that we can't measure it.

Nonetheless, we needn't stop there and wait to be blown around by the wind - after all, who stops learning simply because they can't understand everything? Our minds are meant to be used for thought - we can't escape from it. It's human nature to think, to consider meaning, to speculate, to analyze, to wonder.

It's always been interesting to me how we have this capability - none of us truly goes around completely aimless and without purpose. We can't function well without some kind of structure, and we can't be productive without some kind of motivation. To simply "be" is quite the miracle enough in and of itself, and survival is a pretty hard task, but we like to think beyond those things, too. To deny that is to deny something that makes us uniquely human.

I can't help but think that there is far more to life than mere survival. Most people have some kind of faith, or at least some kind of philosophy. My fiance, who is agnostic, said to me not long ago that it's interesting how every society has had some form of religion. I agree that it's very interesting - I think it says a lot about humanity's need for something more than just "being." We can argue and complain all day about how humans have abused religion, but at the end of the day, we can't get around the fact that most of us just aren't content to drink, eat, and sleep our lives away. We could easily do that and just survive and propagate, but we choose not to be that simple. I have never known a single person who is completely content to do nothing more than drink, eat, and sleep - a person who does not create, wonder, or think.

Seems weird that every human being is wired to do more than survive if survival is all we should be concerned about in this life.

I understand not everyone has a well-ironed-out form of faith or philosophy - hey, I have periods of doubt, too, and I subscribe to Christianity. Life is so complex that none of us should be so arrogant as to think we know everything or can judge everything properly. Besides, our understanding is always going to be limited, as I pointed out earlier. Still, is survival really the only important thing in this life? I think we all have the capability of figuring out if this makes sense or not. Whenever I have doubts about life having no more meaning or purpose beyond survival - and doubt is also completely human, after all (Jesus said that those whose faith was greater than a mustard seed could move mountains, and I'm pretty sure no one in human history has successfully moved a mountain) - I always think the following:

If all our lives and all our moral systems and all our philosophies are just products of survival, a prodigious frontal lobe, and extra time --

If everything on this planet and everything in this universe is just some Really Kewl Stuff that happened to come about just because it could, if the only meaning to life is the completely arbitrary and subjective meaning we give to it, and if all we are truly here to do is live and die --

Then all that is, was, and will ever be is the most epic, absurd, utterly nonsensical, ridiculous, and pointless miracle ever fabricated by the Great Nothing, and all that social justice, those great moments of joy, those great scientific discoveries, and everything else that makes life compelling for us, doesn't really matter in the end because we're just going to die in the exact same manner as cockroaches, and few of us will be remembered hundreds of years from now.

I mean, really - why apply or search for some kind of meaning and purpose AT ALL if all we are REALLY here to do is survive for a little bit and then expire? Why do we care so much? If there's no real rhyme or reason to us being here at all, it makes no sense to even create meaning or purpose - that is like trying to work without getting paid, trying to love without getting loved in return, trying to write when you don't have a reason to write, and trying to accomplish anything else in life when there is no goal.

I think we care because we DO have a greater meaning and purpose than just survival - otherwise our lives and the way we live them make no sense at all, and we are putting far too much energy into doing anything beyond drinking, eating, and sleeping for a few decades.

If you think otherwise, let me know.

habsheaven
05-27-2012, 12:35 AM
Many in the agnostic and atheistic camps think religion should die, or will die.

As a theist myself, I understand people can be ethical without religion, and that people with religion can be unethical. So what drives me back to religion? (I was agnostic in my late teens and early twenties.)

Bottom line: if this life is all there is, if there is no purpose behind its creation (it just "happened"), then it's essentially meaningless beyond the meaning we ourselves give it. Think about it: every life, yours or someone else's in another country hundreds of years ago, is no more special than the grass you see in your yard: it grows a short time, dies, and then is forgotten.

Life isn't meaningless at all. Life is a cycle, from the smallest animal to the largest plant, it exists to create more life. It's a shame that you cannot appreciate the grass in your yard. I love the smell of freshly cut grass.

When we look at our lives, the lives of others, the course of human history, the world around us, and the much greater universe beyond our mere planet, we have to marvel. And when we think about what it all could mean, we have to be honest and admit there is so much we don't know - we are like mere specks of sand on a beach so large that we can't measure it.

Nonetheless, we needn't stop there and wait to be blown around by the wind - after all, who stops learning simply because they can't understand everything? Our minds are meant to be used for thought - we can't escape from it. It's human nature to think, to consider meaning, to speculate, to analyze, to wonder.

It's always been interesting to me how we have this capability - none of us truly goes around completely aimless and without purpose. We can't function well without some kind of structure, and we can't be productive without some kind of motivation. To simply "be" is quite the miracle enough in and of itself, and survival is a pretty hard task, but we like to think beyond those things, too. To deny that is to deny something that makes us uniquely human.

None of this explains a need for religion. It actually gives reason not to accept religion. Religion dictates the answers to us and frowns upon questioning what we are told.

I can't help but think that there is far more to life than mere survival. Most people have some kind of faith, or at least some kind of philosophy. My fiance, who is agnostic, said to me not long ago that it's interesting how every society has had some form of religion. I agree that it's very interesting - I think it says a lot about humanity's need for something more than just "being." We can argue and complain all day about how humans have abused religion, but at the end of the day, we can't get around the fact that most of us just aren't content to drink, eat, and sleep our lives away. We could easily do that and just survive and propagate, but we choose not to be that simple. I have never known a single person who is completely content to do nothing more than drink, eat, and sleep - a person who does not create, wonder, or think.

For a large portion of the world, life is nothing BUT survival. For the rest of us, our cursed intelligence demands we find an answer for our existence whether there is one or not.

Seems weird that every human being is wired to do more than survive if survival is all we should be concerned about in this life.

Not really. Some animals have speed or strength for survival, we happen to have intelligence.

I understand not everyone has a well-ironed-out form of faith or philosophy - hey, I have periods of doubt, too, and I subscribe to Christianity. Life is so complex that none of us should be so arrogant as to think we know everything or can judge everything properly. Besides, our understanding is always going to be limited, as I pointed out earlier. Still, is survival really the only important thing in this life? I think we all have the capability of figuring out if this makes sense or not. Whenever I have doubts about life having no more meaning or purpose beyond survival - and doubt is also completely human, after all (Jesus said that those whose faith was greater than a mustard seed could move mountains, and I'm pretty sure no one in human history has successfully moved a mountain) - I always think the following:

If all our lives and all our moral systems and all our philosophies are just products of survival, a prodigious frontal lobe, and extra time --

If everything on this planet and everything in this universe is just some Really Kewl Stuff that happened to come about just because it could, if the only meaning to life is the completely arbitrary and subjective meaning we give to it, and if all we are truly here to do is live and die --

Then all that is, was, and will ever be is the most epic, absurd, utterly nonsensical, ridiculous, and pointless miracle ever fabricated by the Great Nothing, and all that social justice, those great moments of joy, those great scientific discoveries, and everything else that makes life compelling for us, doesn't really matter in the end because we're just going to die in the exact same manner as cockroaches, and few of us will be remembered hundreds of years from now.

I mean, really - why apply or search for some kind of meaning and purpose AT ALL if all we are REALLY here to do is survive for a little bit and then expire? Why do we care so much? If there's no real rhyme or reason to us being here at all, it makes no sense to even create meaning or purpose - that is like trying to work without getting paid, trying to love without getting loved in return, trying to write when you don't have a reason to write, and trying to accomplish anything else in life when there is no goal.

I think we care because we DO have a greater meaning and purpose than just survival - otherwise our lives and the way we live them make no sense at all, and we are putting far too much energy into doing anything beyond drinking, eating, and sleeping for a few decades.

If you think otherwise, let me know.

The remainder of your post explains perfectly WHY religion has such a stranglehold on society. You paint LIFE as meaningless if there is no obvious purpose taking us into perpetuity. I prefer to enjoy my life. I appreciate all the good in my life. That is worth expending energy in my book. I could ramble on about everything I enjoy in life, but that wouldn't be enjoyable.

If the only purpose of this life is to behave so that you can get to an afterlife, what is the purpose of that?

JustAlex
05-27-2012, 03:10 AM
Bottom line: if this life is all there is, if there is no purpose behind its creation (it just "happened"), then it's essentially meaningless beyond the meaning we ourselves give it. Think about it: every life, yours or someone else's in another country hundreds of years ago, is no more special than the grass you see in your yard: it grows a short time, dies, and then is forgotten.
I'm an EX-Christians who wasted 15 years (thankfully most of these years I was not in full control of my life, I was a child/teenager) in that dogma.

I find life as an atheist much more exciting and worth living.

Before, I used to think this life on earth was meaningless...After all, what's "more important" 70 years on earth, or an ETERNITY in heaven?

Now I know that this is the ONLY life that I get.....and to me it's very precious and I want to make sure not to waste it.


Nonetheless, we needn't stop there and wait to be blown around by the wind - after all, who stops learning simply because they can't understand everything? Our minds are meant to be used for thought - we can't escape from it. It's human nature to think, to consider meaning, to speculate, to analyze, to wonder.
Yes, and that's what SCIENCE does....it searches for answers.

Meanwhile religion has made up it's mind on EVERYTHING and nothing can change it's mind.

Science is ever changing with new evidence coming in all the time, that's why it's much more reliable.

Go back 2000 years and humans didn't understand ANYTHING....they didn't know that bacteria existed, they didn't understand space, and life expectancy back then was about 35-40 years!

Thanks to SCIENCE....we now understand space a lot more, we understand that germs (unseen by the human eyes) was the cause to many illnesses, and medical science has DOUBLED our life expectancy to 70 - 80 years!


I understand not everyone has a well-ironed-out form of faith or philosophy - hey, I have periods of doubt, too, and I subscribe to Christianity. Life is so complex that none of us should be so arrogant as to think we know everything or can judge everything properly.

I mean NO offense when I say the following:

Christians (for the most part) think they DO know everything.

They think they know for a FACT that God, the Devil, Heaven, Hell, and a soul are all real things despite the fact there is absolutely no evidence for any of this.

Science has tried so hard to answer so many complex questions, but religion (because it's DOGMATIC) tries to shut it down every chance it gets.

Galileo was almost executed when he said the Earth revolved around the sun....this was Anti-Biblical back in those days.

Nowadays Christian fundamentalist keep shunning Evolution because it goes against their beliefs, they reject all evidence and FACTS no matter how strong it may be.



Basically the rest of your post is asking "what is the meaning to life"?

Well, I don't know!

What is the meaning to life for all those kids that starve to DEATH in Africa?

What is the meaning to life for someone that has cancer at an early age and suffers for the remaining of his/her life?

Why do good things happen to bad people and vice versa?

^Christianity CAN'T explain any of these things!



Personally, I don't believe in God because there is no evidence for him.

Throughout the history of humans, we have made up THOUSANDS of gods (Horus, Zeus, Thor, Krishna, Allah, Yahweh).

Why do you believe in Yahweh and not Zeus?

Why do you believe in Jesus and not Muhammad?

DunkingDurant35
05-27-2012, 12:21 PM
habs, I appreciate grass, but for you to think we are not more complex or important than grass is quite the logical leap. Whether you like it or not, the reality is that in all countries, even those where people are largely concerned with survival, there is some form of religion practiced, and - in the vast majority of them - a form of religion is the majority belief. Few countries are predominantly atheist. Might ask yourself why the majority of humanity tends to see the need for something greater.

JustAlex, science has indeed done great things for us, but it doesn't bring life meaning in and of itself. Also, as usual, you are generalizing a lot about modern Christianity without historical Biblical context. In another recent thread, I had to show you the dozens and dozens of Biblical verses about giving to the poor because you were seeing things only in modernized, general terms. Be honest: have you actually read much of the Bible?

As an aside, for all the talk that you, habs, and some others do about tolerance and asking questions, it's clear so many of you guys think that any person of any religion is not at your apex of thought - or, worse yet, that we all try to "force" our beliefs on people (as if others never do). Thankfully, my agnostic fiance is nothing like you folks - he understands that I have a faith, I am willing to discuss it, and that I don't force it on him to believe or not, no matter how much you guys like to insist everyone with religion does that. Perhaps many of us just like discussing it? What a thought.

Anway, to answer the remainder of your points, about those kids that starve to death in Africa, etc. - in your world view, that is all the life they will ever have. No eternal justice or anything. Christianity attempts to give answers to all those questions - have you not read Job? Ecclesiastes? Why do you think Christ's mission was to save humanity?

What a sad thought if this life is all there is with its numerous injustices that will never be remedied.

As for why I believe in Christianity and not other religions, I believe the account of Jesus makes the best sense of all philosophies or religions that attempt to make sense of this often confusing life: I believe His resurrection and ability to give salvation solves the core problems of humanity, those things we cannot eradicate ourselves: sin, and its wages, death. I also think humanity would do well to heed His teachings more often, even though our sinful natures result in us frequently falling short of His ideals.

habsheaven
05-27-2012, 02:18 PM
habs, I appreciate grass, but for you to think we are not more complex or important than grass is quite the logical leap. Whether you like it or not, the reality is that in all countries, even those where people are largely concerned with survival, there is some form of religion practiced, and - in the vast majority of them - a form of religion is the majority belief. Few countries are predominantly atheist. Might ask yourself why the majority of humanity tends to see the need for something greater.

I never meant to imply that we weren't more complex than grass. My contention is that we are nothing without that grass. Awhile back I posted an image which explains it perfectly (wish I could find it right now). The one side showed MAN at the top of a PYRAMID with all the other life descending down to the base. The other side showed a CIRCLE with MAN amongst the other life.

I do not have to ask myself why the majority of humanity needs something greater. I asked that question over 30 years ago when I came to the realization that someday I was going to be gone. Life was going to end for me and the world would go on without me. It's scary stuff for a young teen or anyone for that matter. It's very easy to see why people convince themselves that there has to be something else. The alternative is depressing. All that said, just because we want something greater doesn't mean it is so.

JustAlex, science has indeed done great things for us, but it doesn't bring life meaning in and of itself. Also, as usual, you are generalizing a lot about modern Christianity without historical Biblical context. In another recent thread, I had to show you the dozens and dozens of Biblical verses about giving to the poor because you were seeing things only in modernized, general terms. Be honest: have you actually read much of the Bible?

As an aside, for all the talk that you, habs, and some others do about tolerance and asking questions, it's clear so many of you guys think that any person of any religion is not at your apex of thought - or, worse yet, that we all try to "force" our beliefs on people (as if others never do). Thankfully, my agnostic fiance is nothing like you folks - he understands that I have a faith, I am willing to discuss it, and that I don't force it on him to believe or not, no matter how much you guys like to insist everyone with religion does that. Perhaps many of us just like discussing it? What a thought.

I have never said anything about religion being forced on anyone. I ask questions because I want to get an understanding of what believers are thinking. I want to understand why there are so many different interpretations of everything related to the Bible. Why some insist on the supernatural explanation while others say they never think about it? Why some say the Bible is the TRUTH, and others say some things cannot be taken literally?

Anway, to answer the remainder of your points, about those kids that starve to death in Africa, etc. - in your world view, that is all the life they will ever have. No eternal justice or anything. Christianity attempts to give answers to all those questions - have you not read Job? Ecclesiastes? Why do you think Christ's mission was to save humanity?

What a sad thought if this life is all there is with its numerous injustices that will never be remedied.

IMO, this is the biggest pitfall of religion. LIFE is not SAD. Life is great. For those of us that believe THIS IS IT. We learn to appreciate the life we have been given. We are not looking past this life to something better. Again, what is the point of this life if it is only a test to get to the next one?

As for why I believe in Christianity and not other religions, I believe the account of Jesus makes the best sense of all philosophies or religions that attempt to make sense of this often confusing life: I believe His resurrection and ability to give salvation solves the core problems of humanity, those things we cannot eradicate ourselves: sin, and its wages, death. I also think humanity would do well to heed His teachings more often, even though our sinful natures result in us frequently falling short of His ideals.

Have you really given other religions a chance? What are your thoughts on the BILLION people that do not agree with your religion, and are therefore headed to HELL?



Responses in bold.

DunkingDurant35
05-27-2012, 02:27 PM
"All that said, just because we want something greater doesn't mean it is so."

A fair point, but what I can never wrap my head around is why people who are against any sort of belief system can sometimes be so dead-set against it as if it were some kind of fact that no god exists. Faith is faith - I can't prove it the way I can prove 2+2=4, but likewise, the other side can't prove no deity exists, either. Further, choices are available to us, but we all tend to make decisions, too - the person who has decided there probably is a god has made just as much a decision as the person who has decided there probably isn't one. Doesn't mean the person can't continue to ask questions sometimes here on out about anything related to that issue, but most people still make decisions on these things.

"I want to understand why there are so many different interpretations of everything related to the Bible. Why some insist on the supernatural explanation while others say they never think about it? Why some say the Bible is the TRUTH, and others say some things cannot be taken literally?"

For the same reason people can disagree on any non-religious issue that calls for some conceptual thought, be it politics, secular philosophy, ethics, etc. - it's complex.

"IMO, this is the biggest pitfall of religion. LIFE is not SAD. Life is great."

The fact of many people dying from torture is not GREAT. Life is a mixture of greatness and sadness.

"For those of us that believe THIS IS IT. We learn to appreciate the life we have been given. We are not looking past this life to something better. Again, what is the point of this life if it is only a test to get to the next one?"

Believers can appreciate what has been given, too, but we realize that there are some things that occur in this life that are unfair, horrific, and horrendous, and we have hope they will someday be remedied, because goodness knows we can't always rely on PEOPLE in THIS life to do that. With that said, we also take joy in the good that DOES happen here. We believe the point of this life is to do as much good as possible, learn from what life shows us, and try to follow accordingly.

"Have you really given other religions a chance? What are your thoughts on the BILLION people that do not agree with your religion, and are therefore headed to HELL?"

I took a World Religions course and have read up on various other religions and their interpretations through library and Internet research. I think there are some good points to all of them, but I think Christ's example is incomparable. For those who do not believe, I think God gives everyone a fair shake. Who goes to heaven or hell is not my choice, but His. Since I believe He has perfect justice, I think He knows full well when someone either didn't get enough of a chance to make a complete choice in this life, and He will give them all sufficient chance whether here or when they are entering the afterlife.

JustAlex
05-27-2012, 03:06 PM
You know what I like about not being a christian anymore?

A day like today (SUNDAY).....being able to wake up late, watch my favorite baseball team play and just RELAX!

That's what I mean by not wasting my time with religion, I'm enjoying life and not taking it for granted!

Ok, now I'll make some responses.


JustAlex, science has indeed done great things for us, but it doesn't bring life meaning in and of itself. Also, as usual, you are generalizing a lot about modern Christianity without historical Biblical context. In another recent thread, I had to show you the dozens and dozens of Biblical verses about giving to the poor because you were seeing things only in modernized, general terms. Be honest: have you actually read much of the Bible?

Honest?

I've read the bible A LOT.....and I mean A LOT!

I still know many passages from heart (and that's that I'm a GODLESS Heathen now....LOL).

To accept Christianity, you must accept the following are REAL:

God, Jesus, the Devil, Demons, Original Sin, a Soul, Heaven, and Hell

^Am I wrong?

And there is absolutely no evidence for any of this!


Anway, to answer the remainder of your points, about those kids that starve to death in Africa, etc. - in your world view, that is all the life they will ever have. No eternal justice or anything. Christianity attempts to give answers to all those questions - have you not read Job? Ecclesiastes? Why do you think Christ's mission was to save humanity?

Yeah, the book where god makes a BET with the Devil and tortures a man by killing his entire family just to proof his loyalty.

Yeah....I utterly dislike that book and the "Moral" it's trying to teach!


As for why I believe in Christianity and not other religions, I believe the account of Jesus makes the best sense of all philosophies or religions that attempt to make sense of this often confusing life: I believe His resurrection and ability to give salvation solves the core problems of humanity, those things we cannot eradicate ourselves: sin, and its wages, death. I also think humanity would do well to heed His teachings more often, even though our sinful natures result in us frequently falling short of His ideals.

Like Habs already said.....there are BILLIONS that don't believe what you do, but they do believe in other religions to the core just like you do.

What makes YOU right and them WRONG?

habsheaven
05-27-2012, 03:09 PM
"All that said, just because we want something greater doesn't mean it is so."

A fair point, but what I can never wrap my head around is why people who are against any sort of belief system can sometimes be so dead-set against it as if it were some kind of fact that no god exists. Faith is faith - I can't prove it the way I can prove 2+2=4, but likewise, the other side can't prove no deity exists, either. Further, choices are available to us, but we all tend to make decisions, too - the person who has decided there probably is no god has made just as much a decision as the person who has decided there probably isn't one. Doesn't mean the person can't continue to ask questions sometimes here on out about anything related to that issue, but most people still make decisions on these things.

I have no idea whether a god exists or not. I will probably never know. I have made a decision on religion though. People seem to confuse the two.

"I want to understand why there are so many different interpretations of everything related to the Bible. Why some insist on the supernatural explanation while others say they never think about it? Why some say the Bible is the TRUTH, and others say some things cannot be taken literally?"

For the same reason people can disagree on any non-religious issue that calls for some conceptual thought, be it politics, secular philosophy, ethics, etc. - it's complex.

Some passages are complex, many are not.

"IMO, this is the biggest pitfall of religion. LIFE is not SAD. Life is great."

The fact of many people dying from torture is not GREAT. Life is a mixture of greatness and sadness.

I am not speaking about each individual life, I am speaking of life in general.

"For those of us that believe THIS IS IT. We learn to appreciate the life we have been given. We are not looking past this life to something better. Again, what is the point of this life if it is only a test to get to the next one?"

Believers can appreciate what has been given, too, but we realize that there are some things that occur in this life that are unfair, horrific, and horrendous, and we have hope they will someday be remedied, because goodness knows we can't always rely on PEOPLE in THIS life to do that. With that said, we also take joy in the good that DOES happen here. We believe the point of this life is to do as much good as possible, learn from what life shows us, and try to follow accordingly.

So what will the next life be like? What good is pleasure if there is no misery to compare it too? What good is happiness with no sadness? Do believers ever think of what the next life will be like? Am I to believe that everything ends up perfect? Is that something to aspire to?

"Have you really given other religions a chance? What are your thoughts on the BILLION people that do not agree with your religion, and are therefore headed to HELL?"

I took a World Religions course and have read up on various other religions and their interpretations through library and Internet research. I think there are some good points to all of them, but I think Christ's example is incomparable. For those who do not believe, I think God gives everyone a fair shake. Who goes to heaven or hell is not my choice, but His. Since I believe He has perfect justice, I think He knows full well when someone either didn't get enough of a chance to make a complete choice in this life, and He will give them all sufficient chance whether here or when they are entering the afterlife.


Responses in bold.

tutall
05-27-2012, 04:56 PM
You know what I like about not being a christian anymore?

A day like today (SUNDAY).....being able to wake up late, watch my favorite baseball team play and just RELAX!

That's what I mean by not wasting my time with religion, I'm enjoying life and not taking it for granted!

Ok, now I'll make some responses.



Honest?

I've read the bible A LOT.....and I mean A LOT!

I still know many passages from heart (and that's that I'm a GODLESS Heathen now....LOL).

To accept Christianity, you must accept the following are REAL:

God, Jesus, the Devil, Demons, Original Sin, a Soul, Heaven, and Hell

^Am I wrong?

And there is absolutely no evidence for any of this!



Yeah, the book where god makes a BET with the Devil and tortures a man by killing his entire family just to proof his loyalty.

Yeah....I utterly dislike that book and the "Moral" it's trying to teach!





You are quite possibly the most arrogant person I have seen on these boards.... You generalize all people in one little bag and if it isnt the bag you are in they are an idiot...

I am a christian... You know what I did today? I woke up around 9, read a few things online, and went to the grocery store to get some wings and beer for the 500 I was about to watch. I then sat in my chair and watched what parts of the race I didnt sleep through... See, I am not a big fan of churches which I can obviously see you cannot seperate the difference between a church and a christian. I feel many churches today exist to make money and scare people into giving instead of what christianity preaches.... If that offends you I apologize.



Like Habs already said.....there are BILLIONS that don't believe what you do, but they do believe in other religions to the core just like you do.

What makes YOU right and them WRONG?

There are also billions that agree with me and say you are wrong.. can you show me some proof you are right? You stand behind scientific "facts" that are not proven. Some of them make logical sense but again, are not proven like you think they should be.

JustAlex
05-27-2012, 05:17 PM
You are quite possibly the most arrogant person I have seen on these boards.... You generalize all people in one little bag and if it isnt the bag you are in they are an idiot...

Generalize?

What did I say that is incorrect about chritians?

How can I generalize, when I was a christian for 15 years and I saw these things from the various churches I went......my entire family is STILL christian and I continue to see these things!

Please explain which part did I get wrong from christianity!!!!


I am a christian... You know what I did today? I woke up around 9, read a few things online, and went to the grocery store to get some wings and beer for the 500 I was about to watch. I then sat in my chair and watched what parts of the race I didnt sleep through... See, I am not a big fan of churches which I can obviously see you cannot seperate the difference between a church and a christian.

Um, the vast majority of people that call themselves Christians go to church on Sunday because it's the "Sabbath", and HELLO, it's also one of the 10 commandments....which BTW YOU are breaking by not going to church today! :nono:

If you want to call that "Generalizing" then fine....but how is saying that being "arrogant" or incorrect?


I feel many churches today exist to make money and scare people into giving instead of what christianity preaches.... If that offends you I apologize.

LOL, how would this offend me....I believe the exact thing.

Churches are FRAUDULENT, they promise "False hope" to mindless sheep, I feel bad that my parents go every Sunday and there's nothing I can do to stop them.

I feel horrible that they give 10% of their weekly wages to the church because they believe they are doing something good, when In reality they could use that money for food or other necessities.

I DESPISE CHURCHES!!!


There are also billions that agree with me and say you are wrong.. can you show me some proof you are right? You stand behind scientific "facts" that are not proven. Some of them make logical sense but again, are not proven like you think they should be.

SORRY!

The burden of proof is on YOU not me!

I don't have to prove that God doesn't exist.

You have to prove to me that he DOES exist!


If I told you I saw an alien last night, would it be up to you to prove me wrong?

Do you see how nonsensical that sounds!

I would have to prove to you that I really did see an alien last night, maybe by a picture or some other type of physical evidence.

hawk2618
05-27-2012, 05:58 PM
SORRY!

The burden of proof is on YOU not me!

I don't have to prove that God doesn't exist.

You have to prove to me that he DOES exist!


If I told you I saw an alien last night, would it be up to you to prove me wrong?

Do you see how nonsensical that sounds!

I would have to prove to you that I really did see an alien last night, maybe by a picture or some other type of physical evidence.[/quote]

Actually, seeing something is ABSOLUTELY totally different from believing in something.If someone believes in a God,why would they feel the need they have to prove it if it hasn't been unproven?? You can't prove a belief.There can only be theories.If every belief could be proved,we wouldn't be having these threads...would we?

ensbergcollector
05-27-2012, 05:59 PM
ok, a few things:

apparently asking you to not sleep in on sunday is a horrible injustice. i can see why you hate church. lol

going to church is not one of the commandments nor does the bible say anywhere that it is a sin not to attend church.

you "despise churches" yet you try and act like you are an unbias rational person when having religious discussions.

if you said you saw an alien last night, i would probably doubt you. I would not go out of my way to attack you for thinking so and belittle you until you could prove it to me. my life is not hindered in any way if you believe something I don't.

you seem to think churches do no good. I attend a church of 300 members. none of our members makes over a million a year and in fact there may only be a couple that break six figures. we gave over 50,000 last year just in helping people in the community pay bills and eat. We also gave almost 150,000 to do the same around the world. and you know what, we aren't anything special. churches all around the world do the exact same every year.
you question what "benevolence" churches are a part of and what good they do. According to you they do no good and are only there to scam the "sheep" while you couldn't be more wrong. Is it safe to assume that the 15 years you spent in church was from birth to 15? Glad you had it all figured out at 15 while all those poor idiot adults just don't know what they are talking about.

hawk2618
05-27-2012, 06:03 PM
ok, a few things:

apparently asking you to not sleep in on sunday is a horrible injustice. i can see why you hate church. lol

going to church is not one of the commandments nor does the bible say anywhere that it is a sin not to attend church.

you "despise churches" yet you try and act like you are an unbias rational person when having religious discussions.

if you said you saw an alien last night, i would probably doubt you. I would not go out of my way to attack you for thinking so and belittle you until you could prove it to me. my life is not hindered in any way if you believe something I don't.

you seem to think churches do no good. I attend a church of 300 members. none of our members makes over a million a year and in fact there may only be a couple that break six figures. we gave over 50,000 last year just in helping people in the community pay bills and eat. We also gave almost 150,000 to do the same around the world. and you know what, we aren't anything special. churches all around the world do the exact same every year.
you question what "benevolence" churches are a part of and what good they do. According to you they do no good and are only there to scam the "sheep" while you couldn't be more wrong. Is it safe to assume that the 15 years you spent in church was from birth to 15? Glad you had it all figured out at 15 while all those poor idiot adults just don't know what they are talking about.

nice post!:horn:

MadMan1978
05-27-2012, 06:12 PM
ok, a few things:

apparently asking you to not sleep in on sunday is a horrible injustice. i can see why you hate church. lol

going to church is not one of the commandments nor does the bible say anywhere that it is a sin not to attend church.

you "despise churches" yet you try and act like you are an unbias rational person when having religious discussions.

if you said you saw an alien last night, i would probably doubt you. I would not go out of my way to attack you for thinking so and belittle you until you could prove it to me. my life is not hindered in any way if you believe something I don't.

you seem to think churches do no good. I attend a church of 300 members. none of our members makes over a million a year and in fact there may only be a couple that break six figures. we gave over 50,000 last year just in helping people in the community pay bills and eat. We also gave almost 150,000 to do the same around the world. and you know what, we aren't anything special. churches all around the world do the exact same every year.
you question what "benevolence" churches are a part of and what good they do. According to you they do no good and are only there to scam the "sheep" while you couldn't be more wrong. Is it safe to assume that the 15 years you spent in church was from birth to 15? Glad you had it all figured out at 15 while all those poor idiot adults just don't know what they are talking about.


No offense but that seems a bit backwards 50,000 for the people in your community and 150,000 to other people in the world... Why not put that towards helping those in your community?...

JustAlex
05-27-2012, 06:17 PM
Actually, seeing something is ABSOLUTELY totally different from believing in something.If someone believes in a God,why would they feel the need they have to prove it if it hasn't been unprove?? You can't prove a belief.There can only be theories.If every belief could be proved,we wouldn't be having these threads...would we?

What is one of the major points of being a Christian?

To preach the "good word"

To "Bring light into a dark world".

In other words, to "save" those that don't believe!

We don't believe because we don't have evidence, and you guys aren't doing a good job at convincing us that God really exists.

And guess what....WE (atheist) ARE GROWING!

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111885128

http://coffeelovingskeptic.com/?p=922

http://www.forbes.com/sites/carolpinchefsky/2012/03/21/unbelievable-atheists-to-rally-in-record-numbers/

^All I can say is....Thank God! :D:


you "despise churches" yet you try and act like you are an unbias rational person when having religious discussions.


When did I say I was "unbiased" towards religious discussions?

It's pretty clear I HATE religion and everything it offers, I don't hate Christians but I do hate Christianity.

If I hated christians, then that would mean I hate my parents and siblings.


if you said you saw an alien last night, i would probably doubt you. I would not go out of my way to attack you for thinking so and belittle you until you could prove it to me. my life is not hindered in any way if you believe something I don't.

No, but what if I made a religion out of it?

What if I told you that if you DON'T believe that I saw an alien and that aliens are real, you are going to HELL!

What if I then said that you have to do things that are according to the teachings of aliens.

This is what Religion is!

It's fairy tales that grown ups believe......basically Santa Clause for adults.


Is it safe to assume that the 15 years you spent in church was from birth to 15? Glad you had it all figured out at 15 while all those poor idiot adults just don't know what they are talking about.

No....I wouldn't count child birth.

I count from the moment I "accepted" Jesus into my Heart which was when I was about 7.

So from 7-22.

I am now 24 years old, and I know that the MAIN reason I was a christian was because I was Indoctrinated by my parents.

I don't hate them for it, they were also indoctrinated by their parents and so on.

That's how it is......but I'm BREAKING THE CHAIN!

I will not indoctrinate my children, I will tell them to find answers and don't take anything on faith!

ensbergcollector
05-27-2012, 06:24 PM
What is one of the major points of being a Christian?

To preach the "good word"

To "Bring light into a dark world".

In other words, to "save" those that don't believe!

We don't believe because we don't have evidence, and you guys aren't doing a good job at convincing us that God really exists.

And guess what....WE (atheist) ARE GROWING!

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111885128

http://coffeelovingskeptic.com/?p=922

http://www.forbes.com/sites/carolpinchefsky/2012/03/21/unbelievable-atheists-to-rally-in-record-numbers/

^All I can say is....Thank God! :D:



When did I say I was "unbiased" towards religious discussions?

It's pretty clear I HATE religion and everything it offers, I don't hate Christians but I do hate Christianity.

If I hated christians, then that would mean I hate my parents and siblings.



No, but what if I made a religion out of it?

What if I told you that if you DON'T believe that I saw an alien and that aliens are real, you are going to HELL!

What if I then said that you have to do things that are according to the teachings of aliens.

This is what Religion is!

It's fairy tales that grown ups believe......basically Santa Clause for adults.



No....I wouldn't count child birth.

I count from the moment I "accepted" Jesus into my Heart which was when I was about 7.

So from 7-22.

I am now 24 years old, and I know that the MAIN reason I was a christian was because I was Indoctrinated by my parents.

I don't hate them for it, they were also indoctrinated by their parents and so on.

That's how it is......but I'm BREAKING THE CHAIN!

I will not indoctrinate my children, I will tell them to find answers and don't take anything on faith!

first of all, why would i care if you thought i was going to a hell that I don't believe in?

you will not indoctrinate your children? really? so if they decide to believe in God you are going to support that?

just out of curiosity, what college did you attend?

ensbergcollector
05-27-2012, 06:25 PM
No offense but that seems a bit backwards 50,000 for the people in your community and 150,000 to other people in the world... Why not put that towards helping those in your community?...

well, there are 200,000 people in our town and billions around the world. wouldn't it make sense that more money went outside of our community?

MadMan1978
05-27-2012, 06:31 PM
well, there are 200,000 people in our town and billions around the world. wouldn't it make sense that more money went outside of our community?
Quite frankly, No...

Charity starts at home...it that not in the good book?

JustAlex
05-27-2012, 06:32 PM
first of all, why would i care if you thought i was going to a hell that I don't believe in?

you will not indoctrinate your children? really? so if they decide to believe in God you are going to support that?

just out of curiosity, what college did you attend?

#1. So you don't believe in hell?

Then you are a rare breed....most christians believe in a literal hell, my parents and every church I went to believed in a literal hell.

#2 If I had kids and they turned to religion then so be it....my mom knows I don't believe in the Bible or god and she still loves me.

#3 What does College have anything to do with what I said?

Do you assume I de-converted from Christianity because a professor told me something?

NO......I de-converted because I began asking questions and while Christianity could NOT answer those questions, Science was doing a much better job at presenting logical and reasonable explanations to many of my questions.

I later stated to question the existence of god, and I found out that there is no good reasons to believe in it.

I went to College to get educated in my field (Business) not to get de-converted.

I de-converted on my own....because I did research and came to a logical conclusion.

hawk2618
05-27-2012, 06:37 PM
What is one of the major points of being a Christian?

To preach the "good word"

To "Bring light into a dark world".

In other words, to "save" those that don't believe!

Once again,preaching and proving are 2 different things.A christian can preach all they want,does that mean others will not believe if it can't be proven? All they have is scriptures,just like the ones you go by not to believe in.

ensbergcollector
05-27-2012, 06:53 PM
#1. So you don't believe in hell?

Then you are a rare breed....most christians believe in a literal hell, my parents and every church I went to believed in a literal hell.

#2 If I had kids and they turned to religion then so be it....my mom knows I don't believe in the Bible or god and she still loves me.

#3 What does College have anything to do with what I said?

Do you assume I de-converted from Christianity because a professor told me something?

NO......I de-converted because I began asking questions and while Christianity could NOT answer those questions, Science was doing a much better job at presenting logical and reasonable explanations to many of my questions.

I later stated to question the existence of god, and I found out that there is no good reasons to believe in it.

I went to College to get educated in my field (Business) not to get de-converted.

I de-converted on my own....because I did research and came to a logical conclusion.

#1. i do believe in hell. you don't. my question is, why do you care if people think you are going to a hell that you don't even believe in? you posed the question about aliens etc. and my response was that I could care less if someone thought i was going to a hell i didn't believe in.

#2. seeing your disgust for religion i struggle to think that your children would feel free to explore religion as a possibility. but, i do not know you outside of this forum so i am not fit to make that call.

#3. you make a lot of assumptions but for some reason you won't answer the question.

ensbergcollector
05-27-2012, 06:56 PM
Quite frankly, No...

Charity starts at home...it that not in the good book?

nope, don't think the bible says anything about that. the bible tells us to care for widows and orphans and to visit those in prison.

so are you saying that all money given by the church should be spent locally? i'm not sure your i get your logic or problem with that much money being spent outside of the local community.

JustAlex
05-27-2012, 07:09 PM
#1. i do believe in hell. you don't. my question is, why do you care if people think you are going to a hell that you don't even believe in? you posed the question about aliens etc. and my response was that I could care less if someone thought i was going to a hell i didn't believe in.

#2. seeing your disgust for religion i struggle to think that your children would feel free to explore religion as a possibility. but, i do not know you outside of this forum so i am not fit to make that call.

#3. you make a lot of assumptions but for some reason you won't answer the question.

#1 Oh, I'm sorry, I misunderstood your statement.

OK, let me answer it properly this time...

Why do I care?

Because I find it offensive that there is a system that tells people that they are going to an eternity of torment unless they convert and listen to what they have to say.

It's a way to control people, and thankfully I figured it out.

#2 Fair enough.

#3 OK, I'll answer the question....I went to the University of Florida (yes as in Florida Gators)

I got my Bachelors in Business Administration.

TheTGB
05-27-2012, 08:33 PM
As someone who does not really believe in organized religion, I am excited to hear about the soon-to-be results of a study by Dr. Parnia on near death experiences.

The AWARE study is based on hospital patients and their claims to have out-of-body experiences when their heart/brain ceases function. What this study has done, is placed pictures on shelves inside the rooms where this is most likely to happen. After a patient has such an event, they are interviewed.

Basically, if they are able to see the picture...that would be basic evidence of a soul. Evidence of a soul would widely change how people view the world. And it would answer part of one of life's most interesting questions, what happens when we die?

JustAlex
05-27-2012, 08:38 PM
As someone who does not really believe in organized religion, I am excited to hear about the soon-to-be results of a study by Dr. Parnia on near death experiences.

The AWARE study is based on hospital patients and their claims to have out-of-body experiences when their heart/brain ceases function. What this study has done, is placed pictures on shelves inside the rooms where this is most likely to happen. After a patient has such an event, they are interviewed.

Basically, if they are able to see the picture...that would be basic evidence of a soul. Evidence of a soul would widely change how people view the world. And it would answer part of one of life's most interesting questions, what happens when we die?

LOL, OK....

They won't be the first or last people to try to find evidence for a "soul".

Suffice to say, if they do find any evidence then it would be the biggest discovery in the HISTORY of Humanity.

I'll wait and see...

TheTGB
05-27-2012, 08:41 PM
And of course, if these people can't see the pictures on the shelves (which are face up and only visible from the ceiling), it proves that out-of-body experiences are just false memories.

But the fact people can still have memories when their brain waves stop is still fascinating.

habsheaven
05-27-2012, 08:45 PM
And of course, if these people can't see the pictures on the shelves (which are face up and only visible from the ceiling), it proves that out-of-body experiences are just false memories.

But the fact people can still have memories when their brain waves stop is still fascinating.

Could they not still claim to have had the out of body experience and were too distracted to notice the pictures (considering the circumstances)?

TheTGB
05-27-2012, 08:47 PM
Could they not still claim to have had the out of body experience and were too distracted to notice the pictures (considering the circumstances)?

It's certainly possible. I'm sure there will be instances of that in this study (which has been going on for several years now).

DunkingDurant35
05-27-2012, 09:00 PM
You know what I like about not being a christian anymore?

A day like today (SUNDAY).....being able to wake up late, watch my favorite baseball team play and just RELAX!

There is no mandate for Christians to attend church on Sunday, or to attend any church building, for that matter. Paul talked about some people esteeming one day over the other, and not to fret about it.


Honest?

I've read the bible A LOT.....and I mean A LOT!

I still know many passages from heart (and that's that I'm a GODLESS Heathen now....LOL).

Glad to know you have at least read a lot of it - few things worse than someone raving about something of which they have little knowledge. By the tone of some of your posts, such as not knowing what the Bible says about giving to the poor, I had some doubts.


To accept Christianity, you must accept the following are REAL:

God, Jesus, the Devil, Demons, Original Sin, a Soul, Heaven, and Hell

^Am I wrong?

And there is absolutely no evidence for any of this!

We do believe these things, but no, we can't prove they are real any more than you can prove that a god does not exist. Remember, it's called a "faith."


Yeah, the book where god makes a BET with the Devil and tortures a man by killing his entire family just to proof his loyalty.

Yeah....I utterly dislike that book and the "Moral" it's trying to teach!

Your choice.


Like Habs already said.....there are BILLIONS that don't believe what you do, but they do believe in other religions to the core just like you do.

What makes YOU right and them WRONG?

I responded to him about that earlier. He gave his opinions, I gave mine. You have given your opinions. Some other people have different opinions. That is life. I mean, what makes you right and me wrong? We could go through this all day. In the end, we simply make the decisions we think make the most sense at the time regarding the more abstract issues of life.

Anyway, despite everything else, this has been a pretty productive discussion thread. Remember that twenty years from now, you may not believe everything you do now. I was a raving agnostic for a few years myself. :p: But overall, I do not post here as much as many of you guys have - I pop in every now and then, post here and there, start some threads and make some posts to get people thinking about things outside their comfort zone. Most of you are quite confident you know a lot about a ton of things, political or otherwise. You can pretend all day that you don't have strong opinions, but you do. You aren't all that different from anyone else, you aren't that more tolerant - you just have come to some different conclusions. The more you think about it and experience life from different perspectives, the more you will see this.

Adios. I have a fiance who is way more easygoing about this stuff, and I want to see if he is online. :wave:

theonedru
05-27-2012, 09:17 PM
As someone who does not really believe in organized religion, I am excited to hear about the soon-to-be results of a study by Dr. Parnia on near death experiences.

The AWARE study is based on hospital patients and their claims to have out-of-body experiences when their heart/brain ceases function. What this study has done, is placed pictures on shelves inside the rooms where this is most likely to happen. After a patient has such an event, they are interviewed.

Basically, if they are able to see the picture...that would be basic evidence of a soul. Evidence of a soul would widely change how people view the world. And it would answer part of one of life's most interesting questions, what happens when we die?

There is a pretty good logical reason for this if you think about one of the bodies most basic building block and the laws of nature... I won't say it in an open forum as I want people to do the research themselves to truly comprehend it.

TheTGB
05-27-2012, 09:31 PM
There is a pretty good logical reason for this if you think about one of the bodies most basic building block and the laws of nature... I won't say it in an open forum as I want people to do the research themselves to truly comprehend it.

I believe I know what you're getting at.

MadMan1978
05-27-2012, 09:36 PM
nope, don't think the bible says anything about that. the bible tells us to care for widows and orphans and to visit those in prison.

so are you saying that all money given by the church should be spent locally? i'm not sure your i get your logic or problem with that much money being spent outside of the local community.


Money sent to other regions in the world to buy say food and such. Say to buy powdered baby formula? To say mix with the contaminated water? Yes this was happening at one point.

Honestly, I love how the Christian Churches in this country try and sell this as trying to safe the world. But yet a better thing would to be clean and make your own community a better place? From appearances, it is just a shame to make them self to look better. Please understand the problem is not with you personally but with how the churches work this. Why not put the money into the community even more. Like maybe, put more food in food banks. Donate items and /or money to a local Hospice. Or even arrange a trip or an area that has been ripped apart by some natural disaster and help rebuild another persons life. It may be a little, but it could be just what is needed.


My logic, is not to send food and/or money to places where it will never get to whom it was intended Corruption in most of those regions is far worse then anyone truly admits. Your church, as with so many other try and sell this as some form of charity in order to make themselves feel good in my opinion. I could go on and on and I am sure you will argue my points. Fact is your points are mute to me. As well your church is not the only one who prescribes to the same thought as your church does. And I am sure you find peace with those choices. For me another reason to stay away from the Church....

ensbergcollector
05-27-2012, 09:47 PM
Money sent to other regions in the world to buy say food and such. Say to buy powdered baby formula? To say mix with the contaminated water? Yes this was happening at one point.

Honestly, I love how the Christian Churches in this country try and sell this as trying to safe the world. But yet a better thing would to be clean and make your own community a better place? From appearances, it is just a shame to make them self to look better. Please understand the problem is not with you personally but with how the churches work this. Why not put the money into the community even more. Like maybe, put more food in food banks. Donate items and /or money to a local Hospice. Or even arrange a trip or an area that has been ripped apart by some natural disaster and help rebuild another persons life. It may be a little, but it could be just what is needed.


My logic, is not to send food and/or money to places where it will never get to whom it was intended Corruption in most of those regions is far worse then anyone truly admits. Your church, as with so many other try and sell this as some form of charity in order to make themselves feel good in my opinion. I could go on and on and I am sure you will argue my points. Fact is your points are mute to me. As well your church is not the only one who prescribes to the same thought as your church does. And I am sure you find peace with those choices. For me another reason to stay away from the Church....

wait a second, churches giving to the poor and needy is another reason for you to stay away from church? O.K.

churches don't "sell" benevolence to anyone or for anything. thanks for telling me up front that no matter what I say that my points are mute to you. that is a good way to promote good back and forth.

MadMan1978
05-27-2012, 09:54 PM
wait a second, churches giving to the poor and needy is another reason for you to stay away from church? O.K.

churches don't "sell" benevolence to anyone or for anything. thanks for telling me up front that no matter what I say that my points are mute to you. that is a good way to promote good back and forth.

Well as your first point you only see things one way...

Stop trying to see one thing Tom...

I just think the Churches should try enrich those around them...not just yours...

I do not attend Church or prescribe to any western religion for my own reason which I do not wish to debate.

ensbergcollector
05-27-2012, 10:03 PM
Well as your first point you only see things one way...

Stop trying to see one thing Tom...

I just think the Churches should try enrich those around them...not just yours...

I do not attend Church or prescribe to any western religion for my own reason which I do not wish to debate.

what do you mean stop trying to see one thing. I'm honestly just trying to understand your thoughts and where you are coming from.

i agree that churches should help their communities which is why we do. i fail to see how helping people outside of our community is a negative thing. Our church does not simply send money so we can feel good about ourselves. We have connections with churches currently in 7 different countries. Our benevolence goes to them so that they can provide the same type of help to their communities that we provide to ours. That money goes to helping pay electric bills, pay for medicine, pay for food, etc.
I get not being a fan of churches, i just don't get you somehow being against foreign benevolence.

MadMan1978
05-27-2012, 10:14 PM
what do you mean stop trying to see one thing. I'm honestly just trying to understand your thoughts and where you are coming from.

i agree that churches should help their communities which is why we do. i fail to see how helping people outside of our community is a negative thing. Our church does not simply send money so we can feel good about ourselves. We have connections with churches currently in 7 different countries. Our benevolence goes to them so that they can provide the same type of help to their communities that we provide to ours. That money goes to helping pay electric bills, pay for medicine, pay for food, etc.
I get not being a fan of churches, i just don't get you somehow being against foreign benevolence.

Should we not take care or all those around us?

Did your Church send a group to New Orleans after Katrina ?

Did your Church send any aid to the victims of the tornadoes last year?

You admitted that they send more money outside the country then they use for aid within. In fact it was 3 times as much. and i stated my reasons. I would rather help my neighbor first. Before we run off and help the world. And sending money, in my opinion, is not benevolence. I know you disagree, but that is another debate for another day.

PDawson21
05-27-2012, 10:15 PM
what do you mean stop trying to see one thing. I'm honestly just trying to understand your thoughts and where you are coming from.

i agree that churches should help their communities which is why we do. i fail to see how helping people outside of our community is a negative thing. Our church does not simply send money so we can feel good about ourselves. We have connections with churches currently in 7 different countries. Our benevolence goes to them so that they can provide the same type of help to their communities that we provide to ours. That money goes to helping pay electric bills, pay for medicine, pay for food, etc.
I get not being a fan of churches, i just don't get you somehow being against foreign benevolence.


Helping foreign countries is just as important as helping a local community as well.

Just as a hypothetical question, do you think a church should support a foreign missionary? Or do you think that we shouldnt go overseas to spread the gospel? (directed to MADMAN)

ensbergcollector
05-27-2012, 10:19 PM
Should we not take care or all those around us?

Did your Church send a group to New Orleans after Katrina ?

Did your Church send any aid to the victims of the tornadoes last year?

You admitted that they send more money outside the country then they use for aid within. In fact it was 3 times as much. and i stated my reasons. I would rather help my neighbor first. Before we run off and help the world. And sending money, in my opinion, is not benevolence. I know you disagree, but that is another debate for another day.

the church i was at during katrina did a crazy amount of work and spent a ton of money helping that situation, despite the fact that our own town was devastated by hurricane rita only a month or so later.

we did send a large number of aid to tornado victims.

our annual budget is between 50-60 K locally (meaning within our town and immediate surroundings). around 140-150k outside the US

anything emergency related around the country is dealt with outside of budget.

MadMan1978
05-27-2012, 10:25 PM
Helping foreign countries is just as important as helping a local community as well.

Just as a hypothetical question, do you think a church should support a foreign missionary? Or do you think that we shouldnt go overseas to spread the gospel? (directed to MADMAN)


Actually no, i dont think that they should be above taking care of people in their own community...but again I do not prescribe to any western religion in any form. However, they have been doing this for centuries. Trying to change a culture and the mind set of the people, and where has it really gotten them? However that might not be a good example since most were/are run by the Catholic Church.

MadMan1978
05-27-2012, 10:26 PM
the church i was at during katrina did a crazy amount of work and spent a ton of money helping that situation, despite the fact that our own town was devastated by hurricane rita only a month or so later.

we did send a large number of aid to tornado victims.

our annual budget is between 50-60 K locally (meaning within our town and immediate surroundings). around 140-150k outside the US

anything emergency related around the country is dealt with outside of budget.
Very good great to see...

tutall
05-27-2012, 10:57 PM
Generalize?

What did I say that is incorrect about chritians?

How can I generalize, when I was a christian for 15 years and I saw these things from the various churches I went......my entire family is STILL christian and I continue to see these things!

Please explain which part did I get wrong from christianity!!!!



Um, the vast majority of people that call themselves Christians go to church on Sunday because it's the "Sabbath", and HELLO, it's also one of the 10 commandments....which BTW YOU are breaking by not going to church today! :nono:

If you want to call that "Generalizing" then fine....but how is saying that being "arrogant" or incorrect?



LOL, how would this offend me....I believe the exact thing.

Churches are FRAUDULENT, they promise "False hope" to mindless sheep, I feel bad that my parents go every Sunday and there's nothing I can do to stop them.

I feel horrible that they give 10% of their weekly wages to the church because they believe they are doing something good, when In reality they could use that money for food or other necessities.

Like I said... not a huge fan of modern churches but I do give to christian based charities such as Samaritans Purse and others like it... I think they runthings very well and make the world a better place overall

I DESPISE CHURCHES!!!



SORRY!

The burden of proof is on YOU not me!

I don't have to prove that God doesn't exist.

You have to prove to me that he DOES exist!


If I told you I saw an alien last night, would it be up to you to prove me wrong?

Do you see how nonsensical that sounds!

I would have to prove to you that I really did see an alien last night, maybe by a picture or some other type of physical evidence.

Why is the burdenof proof on me... Why cant we just agree to disagree? I think it is funny people like you depise all christians and focus heavily on that group then say everyone should be treated fairly. Inmy opinion you shouldnt judge anyone based on religion like I have not doneto you in one bit... Honestly I could care less if you saw an alien last night... Idont have to prove anything to you and if you want to believe you sawone go right ahead... I am also not going to pass judgement and say you are crazy and try to issue you proof the aliens do not exist

DunkingDurant35
05-27-2012, 11:04 PM
I'll say this - glad Alex gives to Samaritan's Purse and similar charities, and that he has enough objectivity to see they do good in the world. SP and The Salvation Army in particular have always impressed me by the way they run things. My local SA was a huge boon to my city (Joplin) after our horrific tornado last year. But this all goes back to one of my main points that I added in one of the replies - if people followed what Jesus said more, this world would undoubtedly be a better place. Whether or not one decides Jesus was the messiah, I have never, ever seen a non-believer find fault with his main message. I mean, how can you?

tutall
05-27-2012, 11:16 PM
Money sent to other regions in the world to buy say food and such. Say to buy powdered baby formula? To say mix with the contaminated water? Yes this was happening at one point.

Honestly, I love how the Christian Churches in this country try and sell this as trying to safe the world. But yet a better thing would to be clean and make your own community a better place? From appearances, it is just a shame to make them self to look better. Please understand the problem is not with you personally but with how the churches work this. Why not put the money into the community even more. Like maybe, put more food in food banks. Donate items and /or money to a local Hospice. Or even arrange a trip or an area that has been ripped apart by some natural disaster and help rebuild another persons life. It may be a little, but it could be just what is needed.


My logic, is not to send food and/or money to places where it will never get to whom it was intended Corruption in most of those regions is far worse then anyone truly admits. Your church, as with so many other try and sell this as some form of charity in order to make themselves feel good in my opinion. I could go on and on and I am sure you will argue my points. Fact is your points are mute to me. As well your church is not the only one who prescribes to the same thought as your church does. And I am sure you find peace with those choices. For me another reason to stay away from the Church....

I think you need to open your eyes a little... I grew up in the missionary church... We have a disaster relief team which is ready to go to any natural disaster in the US in 2 weeks notice... we work with local shelters including a battered womens shelter and a drug rehab facility and donate a ton of time as well as money. We do support a small orphanage in Romania and send a lot of items to them as well such as used bookbags, coats, childrens clothing, christmas ornaments, toothbrush and toothpaste, and other small items... It goes over with a team from the church who goes 1-2 times per year and sees they are delivered... There have been 8-10 kids adopted out of that orphange into a loving home in the church also... It might not be a huge difference we are making but I can bet you money it has changed those 8-10 lives quite a bit. I guess I am unsure of how that affects you though... At least at our church if you want your money to go to a specific cause you can write that on the envelope and it goes directly to that cause... The preacher takes a very small salary and most of the money goes to the effort.

That said inside the church there are other things that turn me off but it has nothing to do with helping people

tutall
05-27-2012, 11:17 PM
Should we not take care or all those around us? YES

Did your Church send a group to New Orleans after Katrina ? YES

Did your Church send any aid to the victims of the tornadoes last year? YES

You admitted that they send more money outside the country then they use for aid within. In fact it was 3 times as much. and i stated my reasons. I would rather help my neighbor first. Before we run off and help the world. And sending money, in my opinion, is not benevolence. I know you disagree, but that is another debate for another day.

.....

tutall
05-27-2012, 11:20 PM
I'll say this - glad Alex gives to Samaritan's Purse and similar charities, and that he has enough objectivity to see they do good in the world. SP and The Salvation Army in particular have always impressed me by the way they run things. My local SA was a huge boon to my city (Joplin) after our horrific tornado last year. But this all goes back to one of my main points that I added in one of the replies - if people followed what Jesus said more, this world would undoubtedly be a better place. Whether or not one decides Jesus was the messiah, I have never, ever seen a non-believer find fault with his main message. I mean, how can you?

Sorry... that was what I typed in his response about samaritans purse.... My keyboard isnt working right tonight andmaking this difficult

boba
05-27-2012, 11:25 PM
#1 Oh, I'm sorry, I misunderstood your statement.

OK, let me answer it properly this time...

Why do I care?

Because I find it offensive that there is a system that tells people that they are going to an eternity of torment unless they convert and listen to what they have to say.

It's a way to control people, and thankfully I figured it out.

#2 Fair enough.

#3 OK, I'll answer the question....I went to the University of Florida (yes as in Florida Gators)

I got my Bachelors in Business Administration.
:sign0087: Very good read!

gatorboymike, I understand your offended by it, but why so much hate towards something your offended by. Why would you blame-get mad at people for pursuing eternal life? If you don't believe in it then you don't have to pursue it. As for me I'm soooo glad I know where I'm going after death, I would hate having a belief that there is nothing after death.

theonedru
05-27-2012, 11:28 PM
I'll say this - glad Alex gives to Samaritan's Purse and similar charities, and that he has enough objectivity to see they do good in the world. SP and The Salvation Army in particular have always impressed me by the way they run things. My local SA was a huge boon to my city (Joplin) after our horrific tornado last year. But this all goes back to one of my main points that I added in one of the replies - if people followed what Jesus said more, this world would undoubtedly be a better place. Whether or not one decides Jesus was the messiah, I have never, ever seen a non-believer find fault with his main message. I mean, how can you?

The majority of Christians find fault with his message in that they pick and choose when they decide to follow them. They have very little faith in what they say they believe in, if they did their lives would be very different than what it is. I know many non Christian and non religious peoples who convey more "Christan" values in their lives than supposed "Christians"

JustAlex
05-27-2012, 11:52 PM
Why is the burdenof proof on me... Why cant we just agree to disagree? I think it is funny people like you depise all christians and focus heavily on that group then say everyone should be treated fairly. Inmy opinion you shouldnt judge anyone based on religion like I have not doneto you in one bit... Honestly I could care less if you saw an alien last night... Idont have to prove anything to you and if you want to believe you sawone go right ahead... I am also not going to pass judgement and say you are crazy and try to issue you proof the aliens do not exist

LOL, I don't hate christians, I hate the concept of christianity, I clearly said that both my parents are still christians, do you think I hate them?

Also the alien example was to show you what I think of religion and your god....in other words, to me, it's PURE FANTASY!


I have never, ever seen a non-believer find fault with his main message. I mean, how can you?

Agreed.....I like Jesus.

In fact he was the ONLY thing I like from the bible.

I even believe he was real!

I just don't believe he was the son of God....since I don't believe in god.

Either way, I do like Jesus and his messages, but in the end....I don't accept christianity, there's too much going AGAINST it for me to support it.


:sign0087: Very good read!

gatorboymike, I understand your offended by it, but why so much hate towards something your offended by. Why would you blame-get mad at people for pursuing eternal life? If you don't believe in it then you don't have to pursue it. As for me I'm soooo glad I know where I'm going after death, I would hate having a belief that there is nothing after death.

LOL, I have no idea who "gatorboymike" is but I can I assure you I'm NOT him.


Also, you're Soooo glad you know where's you're going huh?

Well, I'm sooo glad that the ONE and ONLY life that is guaranteed to all humans....I will enjoy it and not waste it by believing in fairy tales!

I'm soooo glad I opened my mind and decided that I would listen to REASON and LOGIC instead of having "faith".

We see the world in two different ways, the difference is I live in reality, the things I can see, feel, touch, taste and smell.

You live in a world where you are forced to believe in things that can't be proven and you're the one taking the gamble.....NOT ME!

DunkingDurant35
05-28-2012, 12:09 AM
The majority of Christians find fault with his message in that they pick and choose when they decide to follow them. They have very little faith in what they say they believe in, if they did their lives would be very different than what it is. I know many non Christian and non religious peoples who convey more "Christan" values in their lives than supposed "Christians"

He did say that many would claim righteousness, yet not follow it. In a world with so much corruption, this holds as true as ever so many years after the fact.

ensbergcollector
05-28-2012, 12:10 AM
LOL, I don't hate christians, I hate the concept of christianity, I clearly said that both my parents are still christians, do you think I hate them?

Also the alien example was to show you what I think of religion and your god....in other words, to me, it's PURE FANTASY!



Agreed.....I like Jesus.

In fact he was the ONLY thing I like from the bible.

I even believe he was real!

I just don't believe he was the son of God....since I don't believe in god.

Either way, I do like Jesus and his messages, but in the end....I don't accept christianity, there's too much going AGAINST it for me to support it.



LOL, I have no idea who "gatorboymike" is but I can I assure you I'm NOT him.


Also, you're Soooo glad you know where's you're going huh?

Well, I'm sooo glad that the ONE and ONLY life that is guaranteed to all humans....I will enjoy it and not waste it by believing in fairy tales!

I'm soooo glad I opened my mind and decided that I would listen to REASON and LOGIC instead of having "faith".

We see the world in two different ways, the difference is I live in reality, the things I can see, feel, touch, taste and smell.

You live in a world where you are forced to believe in things that can't be proven and you're the one taking the gamble.....NOT ME!

see, you feel like being a christian kept you from enjoying life. i won't speculate as to what they means for you.

difference is, if when this life is over, I find out christianity was all wrong, i will not feel like i missed out on anything or that I wish I had done something differently.

DunkingDurant35
05-28-2012, 12:13 AM
I'm soooo glad I opened my mind and decided that I would listen to REASON and LOGIC instead of having "faith".

Another thing that irritates me: when some non-believers claim a monopoly on reason and logic. Just because someone has faith doesn't mean they have no reason and logic. I have written complex papers with sophisticated theses that you could probably only dream of writing - I graduated ™™™ laude overall and magna ™™™ laude in my subject area. Beyond my own accomplishments, my fiance scored a 36 on the science portion of the ACT, and as someone who knows me better than you do, and as someone who is likely smarter than you are, I think his viewpoint that I have good reason and logic holds more weight than yours does. Besides, remember: you can't disprove a god any more than someone can prove a god. Some people have just decided that faith is better than the alternative. Also remember: most people have some form of faith. Are they all stupid to you, too? Such arrogance.


We see the world in two different ways, the difference is I live in reality, the things I can see, feel, touch, taste and smell.So why so much debate over the abstract things of life?

hawk2618
05-28-2012, 12:22 AM
I'm soooo glad I opened my mind and decided that I would listen to REASON and LOGIC instead of having "faith".

We see the world in two different ways, the difference is I live in reality, the things I can see, feel, touch, taste and smell.

Being a Christian and a Catholic,I have a belief in God and yet,still live in reality to see,touch,feel,taste and smell.Thats what we were born with.Just because people believe in God doesn't mean they can't have logic and common sense.

theonedru
05-28-2012, 12:28 AM
:sign0087: Very good read!

gatorboymike, I understand your offended by it, but why so much hate towards something your offended by. Why would you blame-get mad at people for pursuing eternal life? If you don't believe in it then you don't have to pursue it. As for me I'm soooo glad I know where I'm going after death, I would hate having a belief that there is nothing after death.

Simple science can prove a life after death theory just as plausible, if not more so than anything with a religion/God, all you have to do is know what to look at and put 2+2 together.

tutall
05-28-2012, 12:34 AM
LOL, I don't hate christians, I hate the concept of christianity, I clearly said that both my parents are still christians, do you think I hate them?

Also the alien example was to show you what I think of religion and your god....in other words, to me, it's PURE FANTASY!


I can accept your viewpoints... Dont agree with them but that is up to you I guess

JustAlex
05-28-2012, 12:53 AM
Another thing that irritates me: when some non-believers claim a monopoly on reason and logic. Just because someone has faith doesn't mean they have no reason and logic.
It's ILLOGICAL to believe in something you can't see/feel/touch/smell/taste.

It's UNREASONABLE to reject facts and evidence the way christians do in respect to evolution and other areas that go against the bible and their "faith".


I have written complex papers with sophisticated theses that you could probably only dream of writing - I graduated ™™™ laude overall and magna ™™™ laude in my subject area. Beyond my own accomplishments, my fiance scored a 36 on the science portion of the ACT, and as someone who knows me better than you do, and as someone who is likely smarter than you are, I think his viewpoint that I have good reason and logic holds more weight than yours does.
Didn't you say that your fiance was agnostic?

And why are you talking about your fiance?

That's like me brining up my Uncle who attended Columbia university, graduated Summa ™™™ laude and he is also an atheist like me and I'm 100% sure he's smarter than myself, you, and your fiance....He's truly a gifted mind and my personal family hero!

Actually, it may surprise you that the more intelligent you are, the less likely you are to believe in god:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2111174/Intelligent-people-less-likely-to-believe-in-God.html


Besides, remember: you can't disprove a god any more than someone can prove a god.

Correct!

You also can't disprove: Leprechauns, Unicorns, Bigfoot, The Loch Ness Monster, and aliens.

theonedru
05-28-2012, 01:08 AM
It's ILLOGICAL to believe in something you can't see/feel/touch/smell/taste.

Atoms, molecules, radiation... I have never seen, felt, smelled or tasted these but I have good faith they exist. There may be a flaw in your logic.

JustAlex
05-28-2012, 01:13 AM
Atoms, molecules, radiation... I have never seen, felt, smelled or tasted these but I have good faith they exist. There may be a flaw in your logic.

We can have tests done to see the effects of atoms, molecules and radiation....thus confirming they exist!

What tests can we do to see the effects of "god"?

theonedru
05-28-2012, 01:27 AM
We can have tests done to see the effects of atoms, molecules and radiation....thus confirming they exist!

What tests can we do to see the effects of "god"?

Unless you are there to witness the testing and results firsthand the information you get you cannot prove to be accurate, as such it would have to be taken with faith (you could say) that it is true and accurate. Much like someone and the faith of their religion.

ensbergcollector
05-28-2012, 01:32 AM
Correct!

You also can't disprove: Leprechauns, Unicorns, Bigfoot, The Loch Ness Monster, and aliens.

and you know what? i don't get all worked up over people that do believe in those things. i don't get disgusted and I don't despise those who think differently then me. I don't join forums just so those who believe in those things know that I think they are all of lesser intelligence than me. I don't go through life abusing my caps lock button just so people know I am yelling at them about things that I don't believe in.

guess that is just one of the differences in the two of us

JustAlex
05-28-2012, 01:39 AM
Unless you are there to witness the testing and results firsthand the information you get you cannot prove to be accurate, as such it would have to be taken with faith (you could say) that it is true and accurate. Much like someone and the faith of their religion.

OK....you're telling me that I should take atoms on faith?

Umm, NO!

It's not the same...the atomic bomb for example shows that there is evidence that atoms exist.

And I HAVE seen videos of an atomic bomb explode.


OK, I'm not sure if I worded my original statement correctly, but I think you see where I'm coming from.

Do you also think it's logical to believe in aliens, Bigfoot, and leprechauns?

Sure, we can have a reasonable "faith" on certain things....

For example, I have reasonable faith that when I get on a plane It will fly, because we have seen planes fly.

I have reasonable faith on many things.....however, how can believing in god be a reasonable faith when there is evidence for evolution, abiogenesis, and the big bang?

Again....what evidence is there for god?


and you know what? i don't get all worked up over people that do believe in those things. i don't get disgusted and I don't despise those who think differently then me. I don't join forums just so those who believe in those things know that I think they are all of lesser intelligence than me. I don't go through life abusing my caps lock button just so people know I am yelling at them about things that I don't believe in.

guess that is just one of the differences in the two of us

OK, I've already said I don't hate anyone, what I "hate" is the concept of religion.

Why is that difficult to understand?

BTW, I wouldn't be so "worked up" if it wasn't for the fact that religions cause WAR, hatred to those they oppose, and a systematic control of it's followers.

theonedru
05-28-2012, 01:51 AM
OK....you're telling me that I should take atoms on faith?

Umm, NO!

It's not the same...the atomic bomb for example shows that there is evidence that atoms exist.

And I HAVE seen videos of an atomic bomb explode.

But you have never seen it in person so how can you truly prove it yourself? As such how can you really truly ever know if you didn't see it in person, your just putting faith in action you never witnessed as being absolute just like billions of others. And much like those and religion. You can see how this argument can go both ways as such

JustAlex
05-28-2012, 02:04 AM
But you have never seen it in person so how can you truly prove it yourself? As such how can you really truly ever know if you didn't see it in person, your just putting faith in action you never witnessed as being absolute just like billions of others. And much like those and religion. You can see how this argument can go both ways as such

Oh ok, I see what you're saying.

Well, here's the thing, back when I was a christian I believed with all my heart that god was real.

My faith came from the teachings of the bible.

The problem actually lies with the Bible.

You see, Genesis teaches the creation of earth, but science has completely debunked that story in many ways.

When people used to tell me, "give me evidence for god"....I would tell them "The heavens and earth" are evidence of god.

Unfortunately for christians, we have naturalistic explanations for how the earth was formed and how life came about.

And I find those explanations a lot more credible than god.


So here is my last comment for today (It's already 1:00 AM).

The reason why I'm so anti-religion, is because of the damage it does to people.

It controls their minds, it doesn't allow them to think outside of their dogmatic teachings (that's why they can't accept evolution and the big bang).

It teaches it's members to reject anything that is against their Holy book.


I want no part of that, and I honestly believe all religions to some extent are dangerous, that's why I get so "worked up" about it.

hawk2618
05-28-2012, 02:45 AM
It's ILLOGICAL to believe in something you can't see/feel/touch/smell/taste.Thats why it's called faith.Anything in life that has a certain % to it that has the possibiltiy to be true,it would be completely logical for a certain % to believe in it,even 1%.Being an atheist,you do realize the % is very low right,but yet you still believe there's no God.

Aikman_TheGreat
05-28-2012, 04:36 AM
Atoms, molecules, radiation... I have never seen, felt, smelled or tasted these but I have good faith they exist. There may be a flaw in your logic.

as well as most of our brains (I say most because someone may have had brain surgery and have seen pictures), but I've never seen my brain but I have faith I have one.

MadMan1978
05-28-2012, 10:01 AM
I think you need to open your eyes a little... I grew up in the missionary church... We have a disaster relief team which is ready to go to any natural disaster in the US in 2 weeks notice... we work with local shelters including a battered womens shelter and a drug rehab facility and donate a ton of time as well as money. We do support a small orphanage in Romania and send a lot of items to them as well such as used bookbags, coats, childrens clothing, christmas ornaments, toothbrush and toothpaste, and other small items... It goes over with a team from the church who goes 1-2 times per year and sees they are delivered... There have been 8-10 kids adopted out of that orphange into a loving home in the church also... It might not be a huge difference we are making but I can bet you money it has changed those 8-10 lives quite a bit. I guess I am unsure of how that affects you though... At least at our church if you want your money to go to a specific cause you can write that on the envelope and it goes directly to that cause... The preacher takes a very small salary and most of the money goes to the effort.

That said inside the church there are other things that turn me off but it has nothing to do with helping people

Well very good but this is the expect not the rule...

My eyes were opened long ago friend. and none of what your church does affect me since i do not live in your region.

tutall
05-28-2012, 10:37 AM
Well very good but this is the expect not the rule...

My eyes were opened long ago friend. and none of what your church does affect me since i do not live in your region.

I agree with you and have said many times I rarely go to church as I feel judged at most of them becauase of things that have happened but just because money is going overseas instead of staying in our yard is no reason to hate churches. There are some churches that are much worse than others IMO

MadMan1978
05-28-2012, 11:23 AM
I agree with you and have said many times I rarely go to church as I feel judged at most of them becauase of things that have happened but just because money is going overseas instead of staying in our yard is no reason to hate churches. There are some churches that are much worse than others IMO

I apologize...If I did not make it clear

but i did say it was another reason not to join them...

DunkingDurant35
05-28-2012, 12:33 PM
It's ILLOGICAL to believe in something you can't see/feel/touch/smell/taste.

I can't see, feel, touch, smell, or taste the abstract concepts of justice, love, conservatism, liberalism, etc. Do they not exist, either?


It's UNREASONABLE to reject facts and evidence the way christians do in respect to evolution and other areas that go against the bible and their "faith".Where have I ever said anything against evolution? You are aware of theistic evolutionists, right? People who take Genesis metaphorically? Stop putting words in my mouth. Once again, you are REALLY, REALLY BAD at lumping everyone together in one group, much like your religion/war and hatred comments to another member (so where did ATHEIST STALIN's war and hatred come from?) - do I hate my fiance and want to start wars? NO. So KNOCK IT OFF - it's beyond ridiculous at this point.


Didn't you say that your fiance was agnostic?Sure did, and he is a more reasonable, tolerant, and rational person than you are currently being right now.


That's like me brining up my Uncle who attended Columbia university, graduated Summa ™™™ laude and he is also an atheist like me and I'm 100% sure he's smarter than myself, you, and your fiance....He's truly a gifted mind and my personal family hero!I am bringing it up because you are trying to insult my intelligence. Maybe you should just shove it.


Actually, it may surprise you that the more intelligent you are, the less likely you are to believe in god:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2111174/Intelligent-people-less-likely-to-believe-in-God.htmlLess likely does not mean never, and it doesn't mean believers are stupid.

Once again, you are being arrogant, judgmental, and intolerant - all the things you accuse religious people of being all the time! Hypocrite.

I'm done talking to you. There are people who can debate these subjects without going to the insulting, ridiculous lengths you do.

habsheaven
05-28-2012, 01:46 PM
I can't see, feel, touch, smell, or taste the abstract concepts of justice, love, conservatism, liberalism, etc. Do they not exist, either?

Religion is not an "abstract" concept. Religion makes many physical claims that cannot be proven.

Where have I ever said anything against evolution? You are aware of theistic evolutionists, right? People who take Genesis metaphorically? Stop putting words in my mouth. Once again, you are REALLY, REALLY BAD at lumping everyone together in one group, much like your religion/war and hatred comments to another member (so where did ATHEIST STALIN's war and hatred come from?) - do I hate my fiance and want to start wars? NO. So KNOCK IT OFF - it's beyond ridiculous at this point.

Any thoughts on why the Bible would speak metaphorically about Creation but speak literally about all the other unbelievable claims found in it?

Sure did, and he is a more reasonable, tolerant, and rational person than you are currently being right now.

I am bringing it up because you are trying to insult my intelligence. Maybe you should just shove it.

Less likely does not mean never, and it doesn't mean believers are stupid.

Once again, you are being arrogant, judgmental, and intolerant - all the things you accuse religious people of being all the time! Hypocrite.

I'm done talking to you. There are people who can debate these subjects without going to the insulting, ridiculous lengths you do.

Responses in bold.

JustAlex
05-28-2012, 02:04 PM
Where have I ever said anything against evolution? You are aware of theistic evolutionists, right? People who take Genesis metaphorically? Stop putting words in my mouth. Once again, you are REALLY, REALLY BAD at lumping everyone together in one group, much like your religion/war and hatred comments to another member (so where did ATHEIST STALIN's war and hatred come from?) - do I hate my fiance and want to start wars? NO. So KNOCK IT OFF - it's beyond ridiculous at this point.

You gotta be kidding me right?

"Theistic evolutionists"?

Those are so rare I don't think I've ever met one in real life!

I started a thread about a week ago on Evolution, just like this one it was full of responses by Christians....NONE of which would defend evolution!

Every single one refuted the facts and evidence, if you don't believe me, just see for yourself:

http://www.sportscardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1656171

I lump people together?

Gee....I wonder why?

Maybe because the OVERWHELMING majority doesn't accept evolution, or any other science which refutes the bible's claims of creation and human life.

And like Habs said: "Why would the bible speak metaphorically on creation and literal on other things"?

That makes NO SENSE!

Why would Jesus come to earth to die for our sins (He did this because of "Original Sin" which occurred in Genesis) if Genesis is "metaphorical"?

NO!

The vast majority of Christians believe that Genesis is accurate....God made the earth and universe in 6 days, he created man and all animals in their present form and that's THAT!

Meanwhile we have evidence to prove the earth is BILLIONS of years old, and we have evidence that life has evolved.


Back when I was a Christian I also rejected evolution....my parents would always say "EVILoution", my church would say that Evolution is Satanic and a conspiracy!

Who do you think keeps wanting to take evolution away from schools???

Who do you think keeps saying there is a "debate among scientist".....when that is an ABSOLUTE LIE!

99.9% of scientists all agree that evolution is true.


I am bringing it up because you are trying to insult my intelligence. Maybe you should just shove it.

NEVER did I insult your intelligence!

I always attack the comments never the person.

And if you don't want to discuss, then fine by me.

But as long as you keep quoting me, I will continue to respond.

shrewsbury
05-28-2012, 06:36 PM
[QUOTE]It controls their minds, it doesn't allow them to think outside of their dogmatic teachings (that's why they can't accept evolution and the big bang).
[QUOTE]

and who said the big bang was not the act of god?

the strang ething most things i hear on here about christians is really about jews and muslims, i am a christian and most anti-christian stuff written here is just so far off it is strange

christians don't have minds? i get the feeling you guys are referring to jim jones and david karesh type "christians", not the every day person who is a christian

there is no science that disproves jesus as god, if so bring it on!

DunkingDurant35
05-28-2012, 07:07 PM
Put the other guy on ignore earlier for reasons that should be clear, but I'll respond to habs since he tries to be fair even though we disagree.

To your first point, it would be fairest to say religion is a mix of both - much of it is abstract as well (consider the trinity, for instance). As for the second point, keep in mind the Bible is a very large document. People tend to communicate both literally and figuratively depending on which context they feel is most appropriate for the situation, so again, we have a mix of both ways of communicating. I am not sure what other "unbelievable" claims you have in mind, but if you have any specifics from the Bible that you think must be taken unequivocally literally, let me know.

habsheaven
05-28-2012, 07:10 PM
[quote]It controls their minds, it doesn't allow them to think outside of their dogmatic teachings (that's why they can't accept evolution and the big bang).
[quote]

and who said the big bang was not the act of god?

the strang ething most things i hear on here about christians is really about jews and muslims, i am a christian and most anti-christian stuff written here is just so far off it is strange

christians don't have minds? i get the feeling you guys are referring to jim jones and david karesh type "christians", not the every day person who is a christian

there is no science that disproves jesus as god, if so bring it on!

It is impossible to PROVE something doesn't exist. You can only PROVE that something does exist. This statement can apply to many facets of life besides religion. Why do believers contantly spout illogical statements like that?

habsheaven
05-28-2012, 07:13 PM
Put the other guy on ignore earlier for reasons that should be clear, but I'll respond to habs since he tries to be fair even though we disagree.

To your first point, it would be fairest to say religion is a mix of both - much of it is abstract as well (consider the trinity, for instance). As for the second point, keep in mind the Bible is a very large document. People tend to communicate both literally and figuratively depending on which context they feel is most appropriate for the situation, so again, we have a mix of both ways of communicating. I am not sure what other "unbelievable" claims you have in mind, but if you have any specifics from the Bible that you think must be taken unequivocally literally, let me know.

I don't have my Bible in front of me so I am not sure if the following are contained in the book of Genesis or not.

People living to be 900, Noah's Arc, The House (Tower?) of Babel, etc.

DunkingDurant35
05-28-2012, 07:35 PM
Why do believers contantly spout illogical statements like that?

Wow...never mind. Thought you were above this wholesale labeling, but clearly I was wrong. Goodness forbid that so many people live by some kind of faith and believe in something more. What a crime against thinking! Such stupid, puerile, infantile people who are so beneath your enormous cognitive faculties. C.S. Lewis, Aquinas, all of those guys - total illogical morons, of course. And all of those large research papers I've written that required logical theses, the high test scores, the 3.9 GPA in graduate school - these were fabricated by the wind, of course. :rolleyes:

And if I recall correctly, your spouse is a believer! Good heavens. I am glad I am not married to someone like you, someone who openly disrespects the intelligence of my demographic.

I made a mistake - I presumed here that most people, despite differences of belief, were open to the idea of discussing things without taking constant shots at logic and intelligence. I have been with someone for seven years who is capable of this, and my friends are as well. If I have learned one thing from this thread, it's that some people think they know everything and that everyone else is beneath them even while they insist only the other party is that way.

I have never claimed to "know it all" - I have simply claimed to have faith, that I have reasons for this faith, and I have described them here. Only you and Alex think it's fine and dandy to insult other people's way of thinking en masse.

Rather than continue adding people to my ignore list, I will just bow out of this thread and discuss these issues with other people elsewhere who realize that logic and intelligence are not exclusive to agnostics and atheists.

habsheaven
05-28-2012, 08:23 PM
Wow...never mind. Thought you were above this wholesale labeling, but clearly I was wrong. Goodness forbid that so many people live by some kind of faith and believe in something more. What a crime against thinking! Such stupid, puerile, infantile people who are so beneath your enormous cognitive faculties. C.S. Lewis, Aquinas, all of those guys - total illogical morons, of course. And all of those large research papers I've written that required logical theses, the high test scores, the 3.9 GPA in graduate school - these were fabricated by the wind, of course. :rolleyes:

You really need to chill out a bit. My "illogical" comment was CLEARLY directed at the argument posed by believers to "prove something doesn't exist". It was not a generalization. I never encounter THAT argument anywhere but in religious discussions. It is an ILLOGICAL argument, pure and simple. If YOU cannot see that, I do not care what your grade point average is, your confused.

And if I recall correctly, your spouse is a believer! Good heavens. I am glad I am not married to someone like you, someone who openly disrespects the intelligence of my demographic.

Again, read what I wrote, not what you think I mean. Also, I have NEVER stated the beliefs of my spouse. Those are for her to state if she so chooses to share them. And from what I can tell YOU are not even married, so you can quit with the digs about not being married to someone like me.

I made a mistake - I presumed here that most people, despite differences of belief, were open to the idea of discussing things without taking constant shots at logic and intelligence. I have been with someone for seven years who is capable of this, and my friends are as well. If I have learned one thing from this thread, it's that some people think they know everything and that everyone else is beneath them even while they insist only the other party is that way.

Ask your significant other if "proving something doesn't exist is a possibility" or is it an illogical argument. I would love to hear his response.

I have never claimed to "know it all" - I have simply claimed to have faith, that I have reasons for this faith, and I have described them here. Only you and Alex think it's fine and dandy to insult other people's way of thinking en masse.

Again, I have NOT insulted anyone. You are reading things into my posts that are NOT there.

Rather than continue adding people to my ignore list, I will just bow out of this thread and discuss these issues with other people elsewhere who realize that logic and intelligence are not exclusive to agnostics and atheists.

Thanks for NOT answering my questions. I hope you put me on ignore. At least the other readers will see the error in your reading comprehension which in all honestly truly surprises me from YOU.



Responses in bold once again.

ensbergcollector
05-28-2012, 08:39 PM
habs- if multiple people are starting to accuse you of no longer being capable of rational debate and instead have told you that you are increasingly hostile to anyone of a religious stance, perhaps instead of writing off everyone, you might step back for a second and see if they might have some merit.

shrewsbury
05-28-2012, 08:48 PM
habs,

science that deals with evolution and creation are hypothesis, no different then other hypothesis that disagree with them.

even among scientists we see a divide in many areas, this is do to the nature of trying to explain things there is no way to prove.

in this sense it is similiar to religion.

i for one love science and quite often it helps me think how it can relate to what i know and/or believe.

i also do not find logic in debate with someone who will only quote the bible or post links.

habsheaven
05-28-2012, 09:17 PM
habs- if multiple people are starting to accuse you of no longer being capable of rational debate and instead have told you that you are increasingly hostile to anyone of a religious stance, perhaps instead of writing off everyone, you might step back for a second and see if they might have some merit.

I have not written off anyone. And my debate is always rational. Just because you and a few others get defensive and read things into my posts it is not my problem. Since you are taking this opportunity to jump in, perhaps you can explain to me how one goes about proving something doesn't exist.

theonedru
05-28-2012, 09:18 PM
Lets start at the very beginning of where we can begin and go from there with this question.

If Gods exists they would have to have come from somewhere, so where would that be, it would be illogical to say they have always been here. They would have to be born of something at a point

habsheaven
05-28-2012, 09:18 PM
habs,

science that deals with evolution and creation are hypothesis, no different then other hypothesis that disagree with them.

even among scientists we see a divide in many areas, this is do to the nature of trying to explain things there is no way to prove.

in this sense it is similiar to religion.

i for one love science and quite often it helps me think how it can relate to what i know and/or believe.

i also do not find logic in debate with someone who will only quote the bible or post links.

I agree. So why are you inviting people to PROVE the non-existence of something? You and I both know that is impossible.

theonedru
05-28-2012, 09:20 PM
I have not written off anyone. And my debate is always rational. Just because you and a few others get defensive and read things into my posts it is not my problem. Since you are taking this opportunity to jump in, perhaps you can explain to me how one goes about proving something doesn't exist.

Its impossible for something to not exist, even in a conceptual form once something is thought of it exists, even if in ones own mind.....

habsheaven
05-28-2012, 09:23 PM
Lets start at the very beginning of where we can begin and go from there with this question.

If Gods exists they would have to have come from somewhere, so where would that be, it would be illogical to say they have always been here. They would have to be born of something at a point

That's a great point. I've brought it up in the past. You would think it is something people, at the very least, contemplate. I don't expect anyone to have a firm belief or answer to it, but it would be nice to see their thoughts on it.

habsheaven
05-28-2012, 09:25 PM
Its impossible for something to not exist, even in a conceptual form once something is thought of it exists, even if in ones own mind.....

Only in a conceptual form. You cannot say the Loch Ness monster exists, only the concept of it.

shrewsbury
05-28-2012, 09:44 PM
this is true in science and religion, not all, but most

the issue is science is more vast, so there is a lot more things to hypothesize on. religion always goes back to the miracles or proof of god, but so many things in religion are correct, even in things like military strategy, geography, rulers in antiquity, but people only want what cannot be reproduced. just like in science the things left unexplained seem to be the most important things.

i do not live my life to have an afterlife, but live my life to be me. i do not live by any book or anyone's ideas except my own. i love many branches of science and religion, they do not conflict with each other at all, it is only mans understanding that produces conflict, which can be a good thing.

habsheaven
05-28-2012, 09:56 PM
this is true in science and religion, not all, but most

the issue is science is more vast, so there is a lot more things to hypothesize on. religion always goes back to the miracles or proof of god, but so many things in religion are correct, even in things like military strategy, geography, rulers in antiquity, but people only want what cannot be reproduced. just like in science the things left unexplained seem to be the most important things.

i do not live my life to have an afterlife, but live my life to be me. i do not live by any book or anyone's ideas except my own. i love many branches of science and religion, they do not conflict with each other at all, it is only mans understanding that produces conflict, which can be a good thing.

Many believers in the Bible claim it is ALL true. Why would skeptics focus on parts of the Bible that they also believe to be true? Of course they are going to want explanations for those parts of the bible that defy reason.

JustAlex
05-28-2012, 10:02 PM
The bible says:

The universe and everything in it was created in 6 days

A snake had legs and could TALK!

A flood destroyed the earth and all the animals

A human could live 900 years

An old man survived being eaten by a "Big Fish" and he later came out of the belly

The building of a tower is the origin of different human languages

A donkey talks

And so on


Now can someone please explain to me how all of this doesn't sound like a big "Mother Goose" fairy tale book?

Seriously, I'm not mocking, I really want to know how people can believe this stuff!

JustAlex
05-28-2012, 10:06 PM
Lets start at the very beginning of where we can begin and go from there with this question.

If Gods exists they would have to have come from somewhere, so where would that be, it would be illogical to say they have always been here. They would have to be born of something at a point

I have pointed this out to many Christians in the past, and they believe that God is outside the realm of space and time.

How would a human know that?

JustAlex
05-28-2012, 10:13 PM
And I think it's NONSENSE that people are saying that Habs is being Irrational.

I'll go as far to say that I have not been the easiest person to deal with and I know I'm very aggressive in my style of debate (although I personally would argue that I DO NOT insult people, I go after their statements).

But Habs has been a very courteous commentator ever since I got here...


Also, if a CERTAIN INDIVIDUAL wants to ignore me than fine....but I NEVER insulted that individual or that individual's intelligence.

Personally, I will NEVER ignore anyone here, no matter how heated a debate gets!

theonedru
05-28-2012, 10:41 PM
I have pointed this out to many Christians in the past, and they believe that God is outside the realm of space and time.

How would a human know that?

Even outside of space and time they would have to have come from something/somewhere they could not have just always been here,

Star_Cards
05-29-2012, 10:08 AM
I came into this thread super late and have read a few posts but not all. For me I think that the reason why religion (at least the afterlife theories) is so popular is because it does give people a sense of relief or joy to feel that in some manner we will go on "living" after our lives are over here on earth. To me that desire to feel that seems like a normal human reaction. I don't disagree that the theory of a heaven afterlife sounds great, I just don't happen to believe in it. For me I don't have to have that afterlife to look forward to so that my earthly life feels complete. I just don't personally need it.

I also think that religion remains popular because it's something that many followers are taught growing up. I think if a persons parents teach and practice religion then it's engrained in most who are taught it growing up. Of course there are exceptions, but typically people in a religion grew up in that religion.

Star_Cards
05-29-2012, 10:17 AM
and I'll add that I feel that Habs is one of the more rational people on the thread. From the parts of this thread that I read I think he's being his typical rational self.

Star_Cards
05-29-2012, 10:28 AM
as well as most of our brains (I say most because someone may have had brain surgery and have seen pictures), but I've never seen my brain but I have faith I have one.

you actually have more than faith or our own brains. it's a fact that we all have brains even though we may have never seen them.

shrewsbury
05-29-2012, 10:33 AM
the creation story is in the torah, which was accepted by the council of nicea and became part of the bible, jesus barley spoke of creation, much less the time frame.

many will say jesus said if you do not believe in moses you cannot believe in me, and many will say moses wrote the the book of creation, but this is just speculation.

i guess many christians who choose to follow because being a christian seems like a good thing, do not do much research, but that is not true for us all.