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View Full Version : Outrage as MSNBC host says he feels uncomfortable calling fallen soldiers heroes



pwaldo
05-28-2012, 07:06 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2151055/Chris-Hayes-Outrage-TV-host-says-uncomfortable-calling-fallen-soldiers-heroes.html


An MSNBC broadcaster has caused outrage by saying he feels 'uncomfortable' branding soldiers who have died in battle 'heroes'.

Chris Hayes, a liberal commentator who hosts Up with Chris Hayes, said the word is used to justify further war.

His stuttered comments - made on Memorial Day weekend - have sparked outrage among veterans organisations and across the internet.

The TV host said: 'I think it is very difficult to talk about the war dead and the fallen without invoking valor, without invoking the words "heroes".

'I feel... uncomfortable, about the word because it seems to me that it is so rhetorically proximate to justifications for more war.'

He went on: 'I don't want to obviously desecrate or disrespect memory of anyone that's fallen, and obviously there are individual circumstances in which there is genuine, tremendous heroism: hail of gunfire, rescuing fellow soldiers and things like that.

'But it seems to me that we marshal this word in a way that is problematic.' He then added: 'But maybe I'm wrong about that.'

A spokesman for a veterans organisation, Veterans of Foreign Wars, suggested Hayes put himself through the anguish of war before criticising soldiers.

'If Mr. Hayes feels uncomfortable, I suggest he enlist, go to war, then come home to what he expects is a grateful nation but encounters the opposite,' Joe Davis told The Daily Caller.

'It’s far too easy to cast stones from inexperience.'

Hayes, who has never served in the armed forces, has hosted his weekend show on MSNBC since last September.

He has appeared as a guest host and commentator on shows including The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell and The Rachel Maddow Show.

habsheaven
05-28-2012, 07:11 PM
Not the time or place for him to say it, but I kind of get what he was getting at.

pspstatus
05-28-2012, 09:02 PM
Not the time or place for him to say it, but I kind of get what he was getting at.


I agree. This is not the best time to say something like that. I don't think he means to criticize soldiers. I think he's more or less saying that calling soldiers heroes kind of glamorizes war. He's wrong if he is saying they aren't in fact heroes, but I see his point.

theonedru
05-28-2012, 09:47 PM
The term hero is way over used and very abused these days.

JustAlex
05-28-2012, 10:02 PM
Yeah, today is definitely NOT the day to make these comments.

Although, I don't think Chris said anything wrong.

I share his view that the war in Afghanistan is doing much more harm than good and it's costing the U.S too much money, resource, and lives.

I think here in the U.S we have a very weird WORSHIP towards American solders....

Yeah I understand they're risking their lives.....but they're also fighting a war the the majority of Americans think is UNNECESSARY while the rest of the world continues to frown upon the U.S for their warmongering mentality.

habsheaven
05-28-2012, 10:12 PM
I don't have a problem with ANY soldier sent to do a job in a foreign land. I may not agree with the administration for sending them but the soldiers themselves deserve respect and admiration for what they do. For me though, I prefer to save the "hero" moniker for soldiers that perform heroic deeds above and beyond the call of duty.

OnePimpTiger
05-28-2012, 10:15 PM
Each of you did not have to go to a war because of the men and women who volunteered to go for you. Would you prefer soldiers didn't volunteer? Then maybe you would get a chance to actually have something to complain about.

You act like the soldiers made the decision to go to war...take your beefs on wars and their justifications out on the politicians. Soldiers sacrifice their time, their ability to see their families, everything they have so that you don't have to. If you have a problem with war, condemn politicians who actually cause them. If you're thankful you haven't had to go to one, thank the soldiers who took your place for you, who volunteered to protect your right to badmouth them. The soldiers, especially those who are celebrated today because they made the ultimate sacrifice, are heroes in the utmost sense of the word.

OnePimpTiger
05-28-2012, 10:16 PM
I don't have a problem with ANY soldier sent to do a job in a foreign land. I may not agree with the administration for sending them but the soldiers themselves deserve respect and admiration for what they do. For me though, I prefer to save the "hero" moniker for soldiers that perform heroic deeds above and beyond the call of duty.

Thank you for bringing some sense to this thread. I will disagree with one thing, though...anyone who voluntarily gives up everything they have and potentially their life so that I get to kiss my wife and kids goodnight every night is a hero to me.

JustAlex
05-28-2012, 10:38 PM
Thank you for bringing some sense to this thread. I will disagree with one thing, though...anyone who voluntarily gives up everything they have and potentially their life so that I get to kiss my wife and kids goodnight every night is a hero to me.

OK, I think what American solders do is something to admire (at the very least it's incredibly brave and honorable to serve your country).

But do you really think the War in Afghanistan is keeping Americans safe?

By almost all stretch of the imagination the Taliban and al qaeda have been completely dismantled.

The U.S is a very hard place to invade/attack since it has the two largest bodies of water on the west and east of it's borders.

What happened on 9/11 was a complete break down on Security, intelligence, and common sense by the U.S government.

TJJenkins
05-28-2012, 10:40 PM
The soldiers aren't the ones that decided to invade Afghanistan, they're the ones that get to do the dirty work.

OnePimpTiger
05-28-2012, 10:54 PM
OK, I think what American solders do is something to admire (at the very least it's incredibly brave and honorable to serve your country).

But do you really think the War in Afghanistan is keeping Americans safe?

By almost all stretch of the imagination the Taliban and al qaeda have been completely dismantled.

The U.S is a very hard place to invade/attack since it has the two largest bodies of water on the west and east of it's borders.

What happened on 9/11 was a complete break down on Security, intelligence, and common sense by the U.S government.

This holiday and this thread have nothing to do with the justification of any war.

Zimbow
05-28-2012, 11:12 PM
"The loudest voices in support of war always comes from those who've never seen one".--Patton, 1944

Star_Cards
05-29-2012, 08:52 AM
I get exactly what he was trying to say, but he expressed his thoughts very incorrectly. It's difficult when you think a war is completely pointless and yet good men are losing their lives because of it, but I'd never say that a fallen soldier wasn't heroic by volunteering to serve and losing their life doing so. It's just a shame that any soldier is being lost because of this war that has been dragged out to long and really doesn't effect our county's safety.

mrveggieman
05-29-2012, 09:00 AM
I feel exactly what the commentator is talking about however I do feel bad for anyone who loses a loved one in these unessessary and wasteful wars. What is the gov't doing for all of the widows and orphaned children?

pwaldo
05-29-2012, 01:45 PM
http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2012/05/the-chris-hayes-memorial-day-saga-124679.html


MSNBC host Chris Hayes apologized on Monday for saying he felt “uncomfortable” calling fallen soldiers “heroes," a remark that set off a firestorm of criticism over the Memorial Day weekend.

"On Sunday, in discussing the uses of the word "hero" to describe those members of the armed forces who have given their lives, I don't think I lived up to the standards of rigor, respect and empathy for those affected by the issues we discuss that I've set for myself," Hayes wrote on MSNBC.com. "I am deeply sorry for that."

In his statement yesterday, Hayes also expressed regret for having reinforced and confirmed the stereotype of the "removed pundit."

"[I]n seeking to discuss the civilian-military divide and the social distance between those who fight and those who don't, I ended up reinforcing it, conforming to a stereotype of a removed pundit whose views are not anchored in the very real and very wrenching experience of this long decade of war," he wrote. "And for that I am truly sorry."

INTIMADATOR2007
05-29-2012, 04:08 PM
each of you did not have to go to a war because of the men and women who volunteered to go for you. Would you prefer soldiers didn't volunteer? Then maybe you would get a chance to actually have something to complain about.

You act like the soldiers made the decision to go to war...take your beefs on wars and their justifications out on the politicians. Soldiers sacrifice their time, their ability to see their families, everything they have so that you don't have to. If you have a problem with war, condemn politicians who actually cause them. If you're thankful you haven't had to go to one, thank the soldiers who took your place for you, who volunteered to protect your right to badmouth them. The soldiers, especially those who are celebrated today because they made the ultimate sacrifice,+1 are heroes in the utmost sense of the word.
+1

mrveggieman
05-30-2012, 09:07 AM
"The loudest voices in support of war always comes from those who've never seen one".--Patton, 1944


CHURCH!! :love0030::love0030::love0030::love0030:

duane1969
05-30-2012, 10:28 AM
A hero is an ordinary individual who finds the strength to persevere and endure in spite of overwhelming obstacles.
- Christopher Reeve

Anyone who sacrified their time, altered their life and gave when they didn't have to to serve in our armed forces is a hero. It does not take a death to be a hero.

Anyone here who doesn't think that our troops are heroes...strap on some body armor, put on a helmet, pick up an M4 and walk the streets of Baghdad or Kabul for an hour or two, then come back (if you are still alive) and tell me how the guys and gals who do it every single day are not heroes.

ensbergcollector
05-30-2012, 12:53 PM
Anyone who sacrified their time, altered their life and gave when they didn't have to to serve in our armed forces is a hero. It does not take a death to be a hero.

Anyone here who doesn't think that our troops are heroes...strap on some body armor, put on a helmet, pick up an M4 and walk the streets of Baghdad or Kabul for an hour or two, then come back (if you are still alive) and tell me how the guys and gals who do it every single day are not heroes.

amen

AUTaxMan
05-30-2012, 01:09 PM
Anyone who sacrified their time, altered their life and gave when they didn't have to to serve in our armed forces is a hero. It does not take a death to be a hero.

Anyone here who doesn't think that our troops are heroes...strap on some body armor, put on a helmet, pick up an M4 and walk the streets of Baghdad or Kabul for an hour or two, then come back (if you are still alive) and tell me how the guys and gals who do it every single day are not heroes.

Agreed. It became obvious when the guy was half trying to apologize that he is against the concept of war and that no person involved in them should ever be called a hero.

JustAlex
05-30-2012, 03:22 PM
OK, so I was hearing this discussion on another forum.

American Solders that die in the line of duty are heroes.

Why?

Because they have served their country and risked their lives to protect what they THINK or at least have BEEN TOLD is right/worth protecting.


Without trying to incite people on here....I SWEAR, I AM NOT TRYING TO INCITE ANYONE ON HERE!


Why are dead American solders heroes and not dead Nazi solders or dead Soviet solders?
(Nazi solders were told they were protecting the "Fatherland" and it was their duty to serve their country.)

Again....I am only asking a simple question, I am NOT trying to compare Americans to Nazis or Obama to Hitler or any of that nonsense.

I want to know if our government tells our solders to fight a war which THEY say is to "protect us" or for the "Greater good" and our solders have NO OPTIONS but to fight.

why is dying for this war make them a hero?

mrveggieman
05-30-2012, 03:24 PM
OK, so I was hearing this discussion on another forum.

American Solders that die in the line of duty are heroes.

Why?

Because they have served their country and risked their lives to protect what they THINK or at least have BEEN TOLD is right/worth protecting.


Without trying to incite people on here....I SWEAR, I AM NOT TRYING TO INCITE ANYONE ON HERE!


Why are dead American solders heroes and not dead Nazi solders or dead Soviet solders?
(Nazi solders were told they were protecting the "Fatherland" and it was their duty to serve their country.)

Again....I am only asking a simple question, I am NOT trying to compare Americans to Nazis or Obama to Hitler or any of that nonsense.

I want to know if our government tells our solders to fight a war which THEY say is to "protect us" or for the "Greater good" and our solders have NO OPTIONS but to fight.

why is dying for this war make them a hero?

He actually bought up an excellent point. There is an old saying that goes one man's terrorist is another man's hero.

boba
05-30-2012, 03:32 PM
OK, so I was hearing this discussion on another forum.

American Solders that die in the line of duty are heroes.

Why?

Because they have served their country and risked their lives to protect what they THINK or at least have BEEN TOLD is right/worth protecting.


Without trying to incite people on here....I SWEAR, I AM NOT TRYING TO INCITE ANYONE ON HERE!


Why are dead American solders heroes and not dead Nazi solders or dead Soviet solders?
(Nazi solders were told they were protecting the "Fatherland" and it was their duty to serve their country.)

Again....I am only asking a simple question, I am NOT trying to compare Americans to Nazis or Obama to Hitler or any of that nonsense.

I want to know if our government tells our solders to fight a war which THEY say is to "protect us" or for the "Greater good" and our solders have NO OPTIONS but to fight.

why is dying for this war make them a hero?

Not sure if serious.

Zimbow
05-30-2012, 04:03 PM
CHURCH!! :love0030::love0030::love0030::love0030:

You betcha! Even though I don't go to church :wave:

AUTaxMan
05-30-2012, 04:07 PM
OK, so I was hearing this discussion on another forum.

American Solders that die in the line of duty are heroes.

Why?

Because they have served their country and risked their lives to protect what they THINK or at least have BEEN TOLD is right/worth protecting.


Without trying to incite people on here....I SWEAR, I AM NOT TRYING TO INCITE ANYONE ON HERE!


Why are dead American solders heroes and not dead Nazi solders or dead Soviet solders?
(Nazi solders were told they were protecting the "Fatherland" and it was their duty to serve their country.)

Again....I am only asking a simple question, I am NOT trying to compare Americans to Nazis or Obama to Hitler or any of that nonsense.

I want to know if our government tells our solders to fight a war which THEY say is to "protect us" or for the "Greater good" and our solders have NO OPTIONS but to fight.

why is dying for this war make them a hero?

Maybe it has something to do with our failure to kill tens of millions of innocent people.

JustAlex
05-30-2012, 04:31 PM
Maybe it has something to do with our failure to kill tens of millions of innocent people.

But in the eyes of other countries we HAVE killed many innocent people.

Again, I'm NOT comparing Nazis to Americans, I'm comparing the "ideology" that war brings.

The U.S is fighting a war that the overwhelming majority of Americans DO NOT believe is worth fighting and should end.

Chris Hayes was uncomfortable calling dead American soldiers heroes because he believes that makes war "look good", and to some extent I agree with him!


Nazi Germany told their soldiers they were protecting the "fatherland" and they were doing "righteous deeds", we tell our soldiers similar things.....despite the fact that our own citizens do NOT believe that this war is worth fighting.

AUTaxMan
05-30-2012, 04:52 PM
But in the eyes of other countries we HAVE killed many innocent people.

Again, I'm NOT comparing Nazis to Americans, I'm comparing the "ideology" that war brings.

The U.S is fighting a war that the overwhelming majority of Americans DO NOT believe is worth fighting and should end.

Chris Hayes was uncomfortable calling dead American soldiers heroes because he believes that makes war "look good", and to some extent I agree with him!


Nazi Germany told their soldiers they were protecting the "fatherland" and they were doing "righteous deeds", we tell our soldiers similar things.....despite the fact that our own citizens do NOT believe that this war is worth fighting.

No person could reasonably believe that the U.S. has killed tens of millions of innocent people like the Nazis and communist Russia did.

ensbergcollector
05-30-2012, 06:02 PM
the short answer is that we are not conquering any lands. we are occupying countries for a short while and then handing them back over to their people. not even sure how you can compare that to nazi germany which very openly was taking over countries. that doesn't even touch on the whole rounding up citizens, experimenting with them, and slaughtering them by the millions.

habsheaven
05-30-2012, 08:15 PM
Alex has a point. The average foot soldier does nothing more than fight battles for HIS country on behalf of HIS government so that HIS fellow civilians (whether they agree or not) do not have to fight. If one side can be considered heroes than surely the other side would have to be heroes as well. You cannot connect the decisions made by leadership to the average soldier.

Isn't propaganda great!!!

OnePimpTiger
05-30-2012, 08:16 PM
OK, so I was hearing this discussion on another forum.

American Solders that die in the line of duty are heroes.

Why?

Because they have served their country and risked their lives to protect what they THINK or at least have BEEN TOLD is right/worth protecting.


Without trying to incite people on here....I SWEAR, I AM NOT TRYING TO INCITE ANYONE ON HERE!


Why are dead American solders heroes and not dead Nazi solders or dead Soviet solders?
(Nazi solders were told they were protecting the "Fatherland" and it was their duty to serve their country.)

Again....I am only asking a simple question, I am NOT trying to compare Americans to Nazis or Obama to Hitler or any of that nonsense.

I want to know if our government tells our solders to fight a war which THEY say is to "protect us" or for the "Greater good" and our solders have NO OPTIONS but to fight.

why is dying for this war make them a hero?

People who serve to protect freedom are a little more worthy of the title hero than people who serve to invade and conquer other countries. Yes, American soldiers have killed innocent people...but that was collateral damage (forgive the callous term), not the reason. Going to war to protect others and freedom is different than going to war to enslave and/or kill others.

duane1969
05-30-2012, 08:23 PM
Without trying to incite people on here....I SWEAR, I AM NOT TRYING TO INCITE ANYONE ON HERE!


Why are dead American solders heroes and not dead Nazi solders or dead Soviet solders?
(Nazi solders were told they were protecting the "Fatherland" and it was their duty to serve their country.)


For me, the answer is extremely simple. I consider American soldiers to be heroes and do not consider Nazi soldiers, Al Queda soldiers or Soviet soldiers to be heroes for one very simple reason. I am an American.

For me to consider those other soldiers to be heores would be for me to say that I condone their actions or agree with their goals. I do not. Many of those men fought with and died with valor, and I respect that, but I do not consider them heroes because I do not support the cause that they died for.

habsheaven
05-30-2012, 10:16 PM
Maybe I am missing something here. When were the Soviets NOT on our side in a war?

theonedru
05-30-2012, 10:31 PM
Anyone who sacrified their time, altered their life and gave when they didn't have to to serve in our armed forces is a hero. It does not take a death to be a hero.

Anyone here who doesn't think that our troops are heroes...strap on some body armor, put on a helmet, pick up an M4 and walk the streets of Baghdad or Kabul for an hour or two, then come back (if you are still alive) and tell me how the guys and gals who do it every single day are not heroes.

The ones that murder and rape women and children for starters .. Or just because they are there still qualify them as heroes even though their actions say otherwise?

theonedru
05-30-2012, 10:36 PM
Maybe it has something to do with our failure to kill tens of millions of innocent people.

America turned and closed their eyes to Nazi atrocities for years while Canada and the rest of the world fought to try and subdue them. That's just darn cowardly and is just as bad.

theonedru
05-30-2012, 10:41 PM
the short answer is that we are not conquering any lands. we are occupying countries for a short while and then handing them back over to their people. not even sure how you can compare that to nazi germany which very openly was taking over countries. that doesn't even touch on the whole rounding up citizens, experimenting with them, and slaughtering them by the millions.

Saddam, Pinochet, OBL the list goes on of dictators and terrorists... These names were all in one way or another backed by some American faction .... and the deaths they caused can all fall on the back of people that supported them, their murders are Americas murders. We can choose to ignore this or we can own up the the fact that we messed up and did something we shouldn't and learn from it.

mrveggieman
05-31-2012, 08:35 AM
For me, the answer is extremely simple. I consider American soldiers to be heroes and do not consider Nazi soldiers, Al Queda soldiers or Soviet soldiers to be heroes for one very simple reason. I am an American.

For me to consider those other soldiers to be heores would be for me to say that I condone their actions or agree with their goals. I do not. Many of those men fought with and died with valor, and I respect that, but I do not consider them heroes because I do not support the cause that they died for.


I feel you on that. However you can't be mad if a nazi supporter considers nazi soldiers heroes or a russian considers soviet soldiers heroes. Again it all depends on whose side of the fence you are on. As for me I personally consider teachers heroes because without teachers we wouldn't have any soldiers, politicians, preachers, lawyers, doctors, ballplayers or anything else.

ensbergcollector
05-31-2012, 10:39 AM
again, surely i am not the only one that can look at the history of war for the last 200+ years and see there you can in no way compare america and nazi germany. it isn't a matter who whose side you were on. America has never tried to conquer our neighboring countries, much less the world. We have never rounded up and slaughtered millions of people.
to try and compare that with innocents killed during warfare and a few rogue soldiers who have done horrible things is ridiculous.

Star_Cards
05-31-2012, 10:50 AM
OK, so I was hearing this discussion on another forum.

American Solders that die in the line of duty are heroes.

Why?

Because they have served their country and risked their lives to protect what they THINK or at least have BEEN TOLD is right/worth protecting.


Without trying to incite people on here....I SWEAR, I AM NOT TRYING TO INCITE ANYONE ON HERE!


Why are dead American solders heroes and not dead Nazi solders or dead Soviet solders?
(Nazi solders were told they were protecting the "Fatherland" and it was their duty to serve their country.)

Again....I am only asking a simple question, I am NOT trying to compare Americans to Nazis or Obama to Hitler or any of that nonsense.

I want to know if our government tells our solders to fight a war which THEY say is to "protect us" or for the "Greater good" and our solders have NO OPTIONS but to fight.

why is dying for this war make them a hero?

well, we wouldn't consider a nazi soldier a hero because he was on the opposite side of what the allied countries stood for and thought was right. I'm sure to hitler and other nazis, those soldier were considered heroes. It's about perspective in this comparison.

dying for even an unjust war makes these soldier still heroes because they volunteered to fight where their leaders tell them to. I think we have no business in afghanistan at present time and think we should have zero soldiers there, but I can still separate that with the sacrifice that our soldiers are making because their leaders put them there. The job that the soldiers do are not any less heroic based off of where their leaders decide for them to go. No matter if they were in WWII, vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan, they all are willing to pay the ultimate price. bottom line is you have to separate the soldiers from the point of the war.

I am of the opinion that the afghan war doesn't currently make us safer here in the US so I see no point to it. I still respect the soldiers and appreciate the willingness to put their lives on the line. My issue isn;t with the soldiers it's with the leaders.

habsheaven
05-31-2012, 10:57 AM
well, we wouldn't consider a nazi soldier a hero because he was on the opposite side of what the allied countries stood for and thought was right. I'm sure to hitler and other nazis, those soldier were considered heroes. It's about perspective in this comparison.

dying for even an unjust war makes these soldier still heroes because they volunteered to fight where their leaders tell them to. I think we have no business in afghanistan at present time and think we should have zero soldiers there, but I can still separate that with the sacrifice that our soldiers are making because their leaders put them there. The job that the soldiers do are not any less heroic based off of where their leaders decide for them to go. No matter if they were in WWII, vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan, they all are willing to pay the ultimate price. bottom line is you have to separate the soldiers from the point of the war.

I am of the opinion that the afghan war doesn't currently make us safer here in the US so I see no point to it. I still respect the soldiers and appreciate the willingness to put their lives on the line. My issue isn;t with the soldiers it's with the leaders.

Very well said.

duane1969
05-31-2012, 11:45 AM
Maybe I am missing something here. When were the Soviets NOT on our side in a war?

The cold one...

In all reality, the USSR would have sat out WWII just like we were trying to do if Hitler hadn't of invaded them.


The ones that murder and rape women and children for starters .. Or just because they are there still qualify them as heroes even though their actions say otherwise?

I guess I am a bit more logical and do not condemn all of our troops because of the actions of a few.


I feel you on that. However you can't be mad if a nazi supporter considers nazi soldiers heroes or a russian considers soviet soldiers heroes. Again it all depends on whose side of the fence you are on. As for me I personally consider teachers heroes because without teachers we wouldn't have any soldiers, politicians, preachers, lawyers, doctors, ballplayers or anything else.

I don't condemn them for supporting their troops. That is just being a good patriot.

mrveggieman
05-31-2012, 11:59 AM
The cold one...

In all reality, the USSR would have sat out WWII just like we were trying to do if Hitler hadn't of invaded them.



I guess I am a bit more logical and do not condemn all of our troops because of the actions of a few.



I don't condemn them for supporting their troops. That is just being a good patriot.


The word patriot loosely translates to being loyal to the father or patriach (I know I mispelled the word but I am too lazy to look up right now). My only fathers are my biological (RIP) and God. Since my biological is no longer in the picture my loyalty is to God. He will be my father no matter what country I live in or who the elected or non elected leader is.

theonedru
05-31-2012, 12:19 PM
I guess I am a bit more logical and do not condemn all of our troops because of the actions of a few.

But you said ALL soldiers were heroes, so you either are saying even the ones committing atrocities are heroes or your statement was incorrect

JustAlex
05-31-2012, 12:46 PM
well, we wouldn't consider a nazi soldier a hero because he was on the opposite side of what the allied countries stood for and thought was right. I'm sure to hitler and other nazis, those soldier were considered heroes. It's about perspective in this comparison.

dying for even an unjust war makes these soldier still heroes because they volunteered to fight where their leaders tell them to. I think we have no business in afghanistan at present time and think we should have zero soldiers there, but I can still separate that with the sacrifice that our soldiers are making because their leaders put them there. The job that the soldiers do are not any less heroic based off of where their leaders decide for them to go. No matter if they were in WWII, vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan, they all are willing to pay the ultimate price. bottom line is you have to separate the soldiers from the point of the war.

I am of the opinion that the afghan war doesn't currently make us safer here in the US so I see no point to it. I still respect the soldiers and appreciate the willingness to put their lives on the line. My issue isn;t with the soldiers it's with the leaders.

Wow....great post, I can definitely agree on many points!

Thank you for taking my question seriously and giving such a great response.

duane1969
05-31-2012, 09:07 PM
The word patriot loosely translates to being loyal to the father or patriach (I know I mispelled the word but I am too lazy to look up right now). My only fathers are my biological (RIP) and God. Since my biological is no longer in the picture my loyalty is to God. He will be my father no matter what country I live in or who the elected or non elected leader is.

Loyalty to the father or how about the fatherland?


But you said ALL soldiers were heroes, so you either are saying even the ones committing atrocities are heroes or your statement was incorrect

Not going to argue semantics with you. If you want to try and delude yourself into believing that what I said was support for war criminals, then go for it.