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mrveggieman
05-31-2012, 01:39 PM
Abortion. What do we know about it. Conservatives are generally against abortion regardless of the reason. They are also against any type of contraception, sex education or any type of sexual freedom between consenting adults. The so called liberals are usually for sex education and sexual freedom but are also pro abortion for any reason at any time. My question is why can't we have some type of common sense when it comes to sex, abortion and other topics. For example I would think that we all agree that unwanted pregnancies are a bad thing. Instead of the liberal answer to have an abortion or the conservative answer of suck it up and deal with it why can't we prevent the problem in the first place by putting measures in place to reduce the amount of unwanted pregancies. Such as manditory sex ed in all schools (none of this abstinence only garbage which never works) as well as free public condom distribution. I would have absolutely no problem seeing my tax dollars going out to free condoms which many of us on here will also enjoy than to pay for welfare or AIDS patients. That wont happen because the first thing conservatives will cry out freedom of religion. What about freedom from religion? News flash not everyone shares the same religious views as you and just like you don't want anyone to restrict your right to practice your religion as you please you have no right to restrict someone from living their lives as they see fit because of YOUR religion. Once you realize that we all have to live together despite our difference and that you cannot make laws that restrict the free movements of others because of YOUR religion the world will be a much better place with lower instances of STDs and unwanted pregnancies. Your thoughts.

JustAlex
05-31-2012, 01:56 PM
I'm pro-choice for one simple reason....

A woman's body is her own, government does NOT have any rights to tell her what she can and can't do to her body.

Like you said in the opening post.....WE NEED MORE SEX ED!

I agree 100% and I would not mind if my tax dollars paid for more contraception which would be easily available to people that want to prevent unwanted pregnancies.


Now, having said all of that, I don't like abortions......I think it's very sad when a woman chooses to abort a child rather than become a mother.

But at the same time it is NOT my decision to make and when conservatives try to SHAME women into not getting abortions they are the REAL Monsters!

pghin08
05-31-2012, 02:08 PM
I'm pro-choice for one simple reason....

A woman's body is her own, government does NOT have any rights to tell her what she can and can't do to her body.

Like you said in the opening post.....WE NEED MORE SEX ED!

I agree 100% and I would not mind if my tax dollars paid for more contraception which would be easily available to people that want to prevent unwanted pregnancies.


Now, having said all of that, I don't like abortions......I think it's very sad when a woman chooses to abort a child rather than become a mother.

But at the same time it is NOT my decision to make and when conservatives try to SHAME women into not getting abortions they are the REAL Monsters!

I've never really understood why those who are anti-abortion are adamant about changing the law. Just because abortion is legal doesn't mean it's forced. If you're anti-abortion, why can't you just choose to not have an abortion? By having the law in place as it is, you're not attacking religion or forcing NON-religion down people's throats, it's simply giving the option either way. Your religious beliefs guide you to the decision of having that baby? Great, here's a hospital, and good luck to you and your newborn. Why can't your religious beliefs be yours alone, why do they have to be everyone else's?

habsheaven
05-31-2012, 02:20 PM
I don't think abortion has anything to do with religion. Sure, religion shapes people's opinions on the subject but that's where it ends. I think it is obvious that "life" begins before a child is actually born. I think everyone positions themselves on this issue based on when/how much they value that life.

Although I lean towards being pro-choice, in a personal instance I would almost always be against having an abortion. If that fetus is my child, I VALUE it from conception. If that fetus is someone else's child, I let society VALUE it once it reaches a viable state.

pghin08
05-31-2012, 02:23 PM
I don't think abortion has anything to do with religion. Sure, religion shapes people's opinions on the subject but that's where it ends. I think it is obvious that "life" begins before a child is actually born. I think everyone positions themselves on this issue based on when/how much they value that life.

Although I lean towards being pro-choice, in a personal instance I would almost always be against having an abortion. If that fetus is my child, I VALUE it from conception. If that fetus is someone else's child, I let society VALUE it once it reaches a viable state.

This is pretty much how I feel too.

JustAlex
05-31-2012, 02:29 PM
I remember having a discussion about abortion with my mother once.....and it will never happen again!

To make a long story short, she could not believe how I could be pro-choice and at one point she started crying when she told me "would you have liked it if you were aborted?"


I have to admit, abortion is NOT something easy to talk about, this isn't like gay marriage or conservative vs. liberal politics.

This gets to the core of people and many have very strong opinions.

I just wish we could come to some type of a solution.

shrewsbury
05-31-2012, 02:32 PM
i will never be pro abortion when it comes to aborting a baby for no other reason than you don't want one. life begins at conception, without this the process of a baby being born would not occur. i am not for killing any life whether it is mine or someone else's.
wanting something can be different than owning up and taking responsibility.

also if we are willing to abort because we don't want a baby should we not abort those who are horrible parents.

sex education is ok, but i believe it will do no good, kids know sex leads to babies.

you can get free condoms already, so this is not the answer.

these are my views that i would not force upon anyone, but no one should expect me to change my views because theirs differs.

ensbergcollector
05-31-2012, 02:35 PM
first of all, veggie, you talk about using common sense and then say most conservatives are against contraceptives of any kind and sex ed. outside of catholics, i don't know anyone who is against contraceptives and a large percentage of those I know are for sex education classes.

my views on abortion are in line with habs - it isn't religion based, it is based on how I view the life that will become a child.

as for the abortion issue - i think those who are against it want to change the law because of the way abortion is used. If you value unborn children as a life, then it is painful and sad to think of the millions who are aborted for no better reason then they would be an inconvenience. I also understand why people have a differing opinion.

mrveggieman
05-31-2012, 02:38 PM
i will never be pro abortion when it comes to aborting a baby for no other reason than you don't want one. life begins at conception, without this the process of a baby being born would not occur. i am not for killing any life whether it is mine or someone else's.
wanting something can be different than owning up and taking responsibility.

also if we are willing to abort because we don't want a baby should we not abort those who are horrible parents.

sex education is ok, but i believe it will do no good, kids know sex leads to babies.

you can get free condoms already, so this is not the answer.

these are my views that i would not force upon anyone, but no one should expect me to change my views because theirs differs.


Believe it or not I agree with you on some of what you are saying. However as far as sex education the abstinance only garbage taught in some school districts or more like sex-diseducation. Also free condoms are only available in some areas. They are not available everywhere. Invest more in condoms and comprehensive sex ed and less in wars and other useless gov't spending.

JustAlex
05-31-2012, 02:50 PM
The only thing I can say where religion is causing harm is telling others to be "Abstinent"

SORRY....this doesn't work one bit!

We're all imperfect humans with STRONG desires.

When you start preaching that "Fornication", masturbation, and other types of sex are "Bad".

This causes psychological damage to certain people and eventually Self hate when someone goes through with the act and then feels they have done something "immoral".


When I was a teen, I was actually scared to get too close with my girlfriend because I was always taught that I should only have sex AFTER I get married.

Some people can't bear this, and eventually they get so sexually frustrated they wind up having unprotected sex which leads to STD's or an unwanted pregnancy.


My Advice to christians: STOP preaching abstinance and STOP saying that fornication and masturbation is "immoral".

It's perfectly natural to have desires, masturbation is a good way to relieve stress and it should NOT be frowned upon.

Fornication is just a made up word to control people into marriage.

JustAlex
05-31-2012, 02:51 PM
The only thing I can say where religion is causing harm is telling others to be "Abstinent"

SORRY....this doesn't work one bit!

We're all imperfect humans with STRONG desires.

When you start preaching that "Fornication", masturbation, and other types of sex are "Bad".

This causes psychological damage to certain people and eventually Self hate when someone goes through with the act and then feels they have done something "immoral".


When I was a teen, I was actually scared to get too close with my girlfriend because I was always taught that I should only have sex AFTER I get married.

Some people can't bear this, and eventually they get so sexually frustrated they wind up having unprotected sex which leads to STD's or an unwanted pregnancy.


My Advice to christians: STOP preaching abstinance and STOP saying that fornication and masturbation is "immoral".

It's perfectly natural to have desires, masturbation is a good way to relieve stress and it should NOT be frowned upon.

Fornication is just a made up word to control people into marriage.

Star_Cards
05-31-2012, 02:56 PM
I don't think abortion has anything to do with religion. Sure, religion shapes people's opinions on the subject but that's where it ends. I think it is obvious that "life" begins before a child is actually born. I think everyone positions themselves on this issue based on when/how much they value that life.

Although I lean towards being pro-choice, in a personal instance I would almost always be against having an abortion. If that fetus is my child, I VALUE it from conception. If that fetus is someone else's child, I let society VALUE it once it reaches a viable state.

great post and basically sums up how I feel about abortion.

Star_Cards
05-31-2012, 03:03 PM
The only thing I can say where religion is causing harm is telling others to be "Abstinent"

SORRY....this doesn't work one bit!

We're all imperfect humans with STRONG desires.

When you start preaching that "Fornication", masturbation, and other types of sex are "Bad".

This causes psychological damage to certain people and eventually Self hate when someone goes through with the act and then feels they have done something "immoral".


When I was a teen, I was actually scared to get too close with my girlfriend because I was always taught that I should only have sex AFTER I get married.

Some people can't bear this, and eventually they get so sexually frustrated they wind up having unprotected sex which leads to STD's or an unwanted pregnancy.


My Advice to christians: STOP preaching abstinance and STOP saying that fornication and masturbation is "immoral".

It's perfectly natural to have desires, masturbation is a good way to relieve stress and it should NOT be frowned upon.

Fornication is just a made up word to control people into marriage.

for some abstinence works. I personally think the recommendation to teenagers should be to wait and then also teach them about being safe just because a lot of them won't wait. The human body is wired to have sex around 13-14 depending on the person so for some the draw is going to be too great to abstain from having sex. However I still think their is value in abstinence discussions. However, I'm not naive enough to believe that teaching abstinence is enough for all or even most kids. If you think you can just tell a kid to abstain and they won't have sex you are simply ignorant. Sex is a major driving force in most post puberty human beings.

shrewsbury
05-31-2012, 03:04 PM
Invest more in condoms and comprehensive sex ed and less in wars and other useless gov't spending.

i could agree with this

ensbergcollector
05-31-2012, 03:04 PM
The only thing I can say where religion is causing harm is telling others to be "Abstinent"

SORRY....this doesn't work one bit!

We're all imperfect humans with STRONG desires.

When you start preaching that "Fornication", masturbation, and other types of sex are "Bad".

This causes psychological damage to certain people and eventually Self hate when someone goes through with the act and then feels they have done something "immoral".


When I was a teen, I was actually scared to get too close with my girlfriend because I was always taught that I should only have sex AFTER I get married.

Some people can't bear this, and eventually they get so sexually frustrated they wind up having unprotected sex which leads to STD's or an unwanted pregnancy.


My Advice to christians: STOP preaching abstinance and STOP saying that fornication and masturbation is "immoral".

It's perfectly natural to have desires, masturbation is a good way to relieve stress and it should NOT be frowned upon.

Fornication is just a made up word to control people into marriage.


thanks man, i needed a laugh.

whether you are religious or not, it is better for marriage if there is not a history of previous sexual partners.

abstinence doesn't work one bit huh? funny, worked for me. just because we have "natural" desires doesn't mean it is wrong to encourage people not to give in to them. I have a natural desire to punch people in the face when they do certain things. Should I be encouraged to follow through because it is natural? also, last i checked, as stupid as it sounds to some, abstinence, and not free condoms or sex education is the only way to assure yourself against unwanted pregnancy and disease. doesn't work huh?

i get if you aren't religious that it seems stupid to be told to be abstinent. Doesn't make the idea stupid just because you don't agree with it.

and give me a break with the psychological damage done by telling someone that sex before marriage is wrong. You know what else can cause psychological damage, sex at an early age.

habsheaven
05-31-2012, 03:09 PM
thanks man, i needed a laugh.

whether you are religious or not, it is better for marriage if there is not a history of previous sexual partners.

abstinence doesn't work one bit huh? funny, worked for me. just because we have "natural" desires doesn't mean it is wrong to encourage people not to give in to them. I have a natural desire to punch people in the face when they do certain things. Should I be encouraged to follow through because it is natural? also, last i checked, as stupid as it sounds to some, abstinence, and not free condoms or sex education is the only way to assure yourself against unwanted pregnancy and disease. doesn't work huh?

i get if you aren't religious that it seems stupid to be told to be abstinent. Doesn't make the idea stupid just because you don't agree with it.

and give me a break with the psychological damage done by telling someone that sex before marriage is wrong. You know what else can cause psychological damage, sex at an early age.

I have no issue with most of what you are saying but I think the bolded part is questionable.

Star_Cards
05-31-2012, 03:15 PM
thanks man, i needed a laugh.

whether you are religious or not, it is better for marriage if there is not a history of previous sexual partners.

abstinence doesn't work one bit huh? funny, worked for me. just because we have "natural" desires doesn't mean it is wrong to encourage people not to give in to them. I have a natural desire to punch people in the face when they do certain things. Should I be encouraged to follow through because it is natural? also, last i checked, as stupid as it sounds to some, abstinence, and not free condoms or sex education is the only way to assure yourself against unwanted pregnancy and disease. doesn't work huh?

i get if you aren't religious that it seems stupid to be told to be abstinent. Doesn't make the idea stupid just because you don't agree with it.

and give me a break with the psychological damage done by telling someone that sex before marriage is wrong. You know what else can cause psychological damage, sex at an early age.

I may not agree with all of alex's views, but why exactly is it better for marriage if neither partner has a history of previous sexual partners? This doesn't really make sense to me.

I do agree that abstinence does work and is a good tool, but it's not the only tool that should be used. Sex Education should be used to help promote more openness about sex in this country. If discussing sex wasn't such a taboo I think people would be way more educated about it and in turn make better decisions about it.

I don't think non religious people think it's stupid to be told to abstain from sex. even nonreligious teens have a hard time having to support a baby on your own or with little to no real world job skills.

I don't really see his psychological damage claim. I know some people do have issues with having sex even once they are married since they've been told sex is bad for so long, but I wouldn't call it a huge problem among people of a sexual age.

JustAlex
05-31-2012, 03:15 PM
thanks man, i needed a laugh.

whether you are religious or not, it is better for marriage if there is not a history of previous sexual partners.

abstinence doesn't work one bit huh? funny, worked for me. just because we have "natural" desires doesn't mean it is wrong to encourage people not to give in to them. I have a natural desire to punch people in the face when they do certain things. Should I be encouraged to follow through because it is natural? also, last i checked, as stupid as it sounds to some, abstinence, and not free condoms or sex education is the only way to assure yourself against unwanted pregnancy and disease. doesn't work huh?

i get if you aren't religious that it seems stupid to be told to be abstinent. Doesn't make the idea stupid just because you don't agree with it.

and give me a break with the psychological damage done by telling someone that sex before marriage is wrong. You know what else can cause psychological damage, sex at an early age.
OK, my comment is NOT to tell kids to have all the sex they want...

However, Abstinence is a JOKE (IMO) because you're going against biological urges that YOU CAN'T CONTROL.

You CAN control the urge to punch someone.

However, the desire to "relieve yourself" is not the same.

BTW, what is your opinion on masturbation?

Do you believe that consenting adults should not "fornicate"?

JustAlex
05-31-2012, 03:20 PM
I don't really see his psychological damage claim. I know some people do have issues with having sex even once they are married since they've been told sex is bad for so long, but I wouldn't call it a huge problem among people of a sexual age.

If I tell you over and over again that you're doing something wrong (and in reality it's NOT wrong but perfectly natural) your brain will be wired to believe you are doing something wrong and that leads to self-hate.

This is what they do to gays by telling them their lifestyle is immoral.

They do the same to straight people by telling them that sex before marriage, masturbation, and certain sex positions (Like anal sex) is immoral.

That's what I meant by psychological damage.

ensbergcollector
05-31-2012, 03:46 PM
I have no issue with most of what you are saying but I think the bolded part is questionable.

i realize i worded that very matter of fact and meant to only write it as my opinion. often times sexual relationships can lead to emotional attachment that would otherwise not exist. some people find themselves being compared, or fear being compared to previous partners. It seems to me like both people entering a marriage without a sexual history would be preferable.
Definitely not the case for all, just how I feel.

ensbergcollector
05-31-2012, 03:49 PM
OK, my comment is NOT to tell kids to have all the sex they want...

However, Abstinence is a JOKE (IMO) because you're going against biological urges that YOU CAN'T CONTROL.

You CAN control the urge to punch someone.

However, the desire to "relieve yourself" is not the same.

BTW, what is your opinion on masturbation?

Do you believe that consenting adults should not "fornicate"?

you keep saying "urges you can't control" and that is, to be blunt, a lie. they can be controlled. I was abstinent until marriage. I had very strong urges and it wasn't easy to remain celibate. However, to say it can't be controlled is wrong.

Again, we have all kinds of urges, doesn't mean we should act on them. and I'm sorry, your use of "relieve yourself" is questionable at best. Having sex is does not equate to using the bathroom, though I know a number of people who act like it is just as basic of an urge.

pghin08
05-31-2012, 03:52 PM
i realize i worded that very matter of fact and meant to only write it as my opinion. often times sexual relationships can lead to emotional attachment that would otherwise not exist. some people find themselves being compared, or fear being compared to previous partners. It seems to me like both people entering a marriage without a sexual history would be preferable.
Definitely not the case for all, just how I feel.

I can definitely see what you're saying here. I'd even go as far to say that it effects things from an experience stand-point. I know I'd be questioning my own "abilities" if I were with a girl who's been with like 20 other guys.

And frankly, were that to be the case, I'd be questioning my taste in women :nono:

JustAlex
05-31-2012, 03:59 PM
you keep saying "urges you can't control" and that is, to be blunt, a lie. they can be controlled. I was abstinent until marriage. I had very strong urges and it wasn't easy to remain celibate. However, to say it can't be controlled is wrong.

Again, we have all kinds of urges, doesn't mean we should act on them. and I'm sorry, your use of "relieve yourself" is questionable at best. Having sex is does not equate to using the bathroom, though I know a number of people who act like it is just as basic of an urge.

Well, maybe I should elaborate on why I believe Christians want to negate natural urges.

Telling kids to be abstinent is not that bad, but it IS bad when you tell them that they can't have sex until marriage.

Why can't I have sex before marriage?

Does being married make the sex anymore safe?

BTW, you didn't answer my question.

What do YOU think about masturbation?


IF you want to tell a kid to be abstinent until marriage (For god sakes, getting married isn't easy!)

Why isn't he allowed to at least relieve some of his urges through masturbation?

Masturbation is perfectly healthy and natural, why are Christians against it????

habsheaven
05-31-2012, 04:01 PM
I can definitely see what you're saying here. I'd even go as far to say that it effects things from an experience stand-point. I know I'd be questioning my own "abilities" if I were with a girl who's been with like 20 other guys.

And frankly, were that to be the case, I'd be questioning my taste in women :nono:

I understand what he is trying to say as well. I would not advocate 20 partners before marriage for anyone, however I do see a benefit for couples in long-term celibate relationships to "experiment" with their sexual compatibility before they actually marry. Much like I am in favour of couples experiencing "living together" before they commit.

pghin08
05-31-2012, 04:10 PM
I understand what he is trying to say as well. I would not advocate 20 partners before marriage for anyone, however I do see a benefit for couples in long-term celibate relationships to "experiment" with their sexual compatibility before they actually marry. Much like I am in favour of couples experiencing "living together" before they commit.

I feel the same way, but I totally understand people who don't. I've had friends who have waited until marriage to have sex and live together, and they've ended up just fine.

shrewsbury
05-31-2012, 04:13 PM
Telling kids to be abstinent is not that bad, but it IS bad when you tell them that they can't have sex until marriage.

Why can't I have sex before marriage?

Does being married make the sex anymore safe?

first you can masturbate all you want, no business of mine.

why do you need to have sex? why can't you wait?

being married means you are committed to one partner, so yes it is safer

but it all comes down to, you can do what you want, but don't tell me i am wrong because my views differ from yours

ensbergcollector
05-31-2012, 04:15 PM
Well, maybe I should elaborate on why I believe Christians want to negate natural urges.

Telling kids to be abstinent is not that bad, but it IS bad when you tell them that they can't have sex until marriage.

Why can't I have sex before marriage?

Does being married make the sex anymore safe?

BTW, you didn't answer my question.

What do YOU think about masturbation?


IF you want to tell a kid to be abstinent until marriage (For god sakes, getting married isn't easy!)

Why isn't he allowed to at least relieve some of his urges through masturbation?

Masturbation is perfectly healthy and natural, why are Christians against it????

if both partners are abstinent until marriage then yes, the sex is safer. there is zero percent chance of disease and if a child is born it is to a married couple who has chosen to commit to each other.

i am very confused by this statement:

"Telling kids to be abstinent is not that bad, but it IS bad when you tell them that they can't have sex until marriage."

if you aren't telling them to be abstinent until marriage then how are you telling them to be abstinent at all?

you ask "why shouldn't i be allowed to have sex before marriage?" well, if you are a christian, it is against god's will and the reasons i wrote earlier.

i wasn't really avoiding the masturbation issue as much as, really, it is a strange subject to discuss in a public forum. for christians, or any other religious people, it is viewed as wrong. Now, the issue becomes why. for a lot, which i think you are referring to, the act in and of itself is a sin. My take has always been that the lust associated with it is the sin, rather than the act itself. again, i understand why a non-christian would not be bound by those parameters because lust is not viewed as wrong by most.

JustAlex
05-31-2012, 04:23 PM
if both partners are abstinent until marriage then yes, the sex is safer. there is zero percent chance of disease and if a child is born it is to a married couple who has chosen to commit to each other.
OK, I can agree with that.

i am very confused by this statement:

"Telling kids to be abstinent is not that bad, but it IS bad when you tell them that they can't have sex until marriage."

if you aren't telling them to be abstinent until marriage then how are you telling them to be abstinent at all?
Well, I would say: "Stay abstinent until you're an adult or you are responsible enough for the consequences of sex.....NOT until you are married.

you ask "why shouldn't i be allowed to have sex before marriage?" well, if you are a christian, it is against god's will and the reasons i wrote earlier.
OK...

i wasn't really avoiding the masturbation issue as much as, really, it is a strange subject to discuss in a public forum. for christians, or any other religious people, it is viewed as wrong. Now, the issue becomes why. for a lot, which i think you are referring to, the act in and of itself is a sin. My take has always been that the lust associated with it is the sin, rather than the act itself. again, i understand why a non-christian would not be bound by those parameters because lust is not viewed as wrong by most.

So....you mean to tell me that, a person has to stay cellibate, can't masturbate or have ANY type of sexual release until marriage?

That is simply impossible for the majority of people.....I'm currently 24 Years old, I have never been married, do you think from the time I was 13 until right now, I could "hold it in"?

Seriously, this is unacceptable.

Response in bold.

mrveggieman
05-31-2012, 04:36 PM
if both partners are abstinent until marriage then yes, the sex is safer. there is zero percent chance of disease and if a child is born it is to a married couple who has chosen to commit to each other.

i am very confused by this statement:

"Telling kids to be abstinent is not that bad, but it IS bad when you tell them that they can't have sex until marriage."

if you aren't telling them to be abstinent until marriage then how are you telling them to be abstinent at all?

you ask "why shouldn't i be allowed to have sex before marriage?" well, if you are a christian, it is against god's will and the reasons i wrote earlier.

i wasn't really avoiding the masturbation issue as much as, really, it is a strange subject to discuss in a public forum. for christians, or any other religious people, it is viewed as wrong. Now, the issue becomes why. for a lot, which i think you are referring to, the act in and of itself is a sin. My take has always been that the lust associated with it is the sin, rather than the act itself. again, i understand why a non-christian would not be bound by those parameters because lust is not viewed as wrong by most.


I remember talking to a a guy once and he was saying that christians feel that mastrabation is a sin because of the guy in the bible who's brother died (I don't recall either of their names) but it was jewish custom back then for the dead man's brother to marry his widow and help her raise his kids. He didn't want to and the bible talked about him spilling his seed on the beach and that angered God. If anyone knows the exact verse or the people who I am talking about please chime in.

tpeichel
05-31-2012, 04:42 PM
I'm pro-choice for one simple reason....

A woman's body is her own, government does NOT have any rights to tell her what she can and can't do to her body.


Then you support policies that allow women to abort girls because they want a boy? It's her body after all.

JustAlex
05-31-2012, 04:59 PM
Then you support policies that allow women to abort girls because they want a boy? It's her body after all.

We've already discussed this.

I don't believe this is happening.

If by any chance it really is happening, then no I don't support that.


BTW....just so you know, Females OUTNUMBER males in the U.S, so in actuality more baby girls are being born than baby boys.

ensbergcollector
05-31-2012, 05:05 PM
I remember talking to a a guy once and he was saying that christians feel that mastrabation is a sin because of the guy in the bible who's brother died (I don't recall either of their names) but it was jewish custom back then for the dead man's brother to marry his widow and help her raise his kids. He didn't want to and the bible talked about him spilling his seed on the beach and that angered God. If anyone knows the exact verse or the people who I am talking about please chime in.

that is usually the verse used. it is found in genesis 38 and is the story of onan. it has been used as an argument against masturbation and in my opinion it has been used wrongly. The issue with onan was his unwillingness to provide children for his brother (you have to read to know what i'm talking about)

ensbergcollector
05-31-2012, 05:11 PM
Response in bold.

it seems more and more like your issue with christianity wasn't a lack of belief in God but rather you didn't want anyone telling you what to do.

i get that you think something is unacceptable for you, doesn't mean it is unacceptable. it is unacceptable for me that people have abortions just because they don't want to be inconvenienced. doesn't mean it is unacceptable for others.

JustAlex
05-31-2012, 05:17 PM
it seems more and more like your issue with christianity wasn't a lack of belief in God but rather you didn't want anyone telling you what to do.

I'll be honest and say that you are half correct.

At the end of the day I don't like most of the rules that Christianity imposes.

But it's not just that I don't like them, I don't believe them to be true.

I don't believe that fornicating is a "sin", I don't believe drinking alcohol is a "sin".

I believe in certain cases lying is acceptable.

And so on...

But beyond the rules, I don't believe in god because I have not been given enough evidence.


i get that you think something is unacceptable for you, doesn't mean it is unacceptable. it is unacceptable for me that people have abortions just because they don't want to be inconvenienced. doesn't mean it is unacceptable for others.

Ok, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this as well.

I feel it's unacceptable to remain abstinent simply because I'm not married.

I would probably go insane if I weren't able to have sexual release.

ensbergcollector
05-31-2012, 05:22 PM
I'll be honest and say that you are half correct.

At the end of the day I don't like most of the rules that Christianity imposes.

But it's not just that I don't like them, I don't believe them to be true.

I don't believe that fornicating is a "sin", I don't believe drinking alcohol is a "sin".

I believe in certain cases lying is acceptable.

And so on...

But beyond the rules, I don't believe in god because I have not been given enough evidence.



Ok, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this as well.

I feel it's unacceptable to remain abstinent simply because I'm not married.

I would probably go insane if I weren't able to have sexual release.

if we are able to agree to disagree then you and I have had our most successful debate yet! :party0053:

for what it's worth, drinking isn't a sin, getting drunk is a sin

tpeichel
05-31-2012, 05:32 PM
We've already discussed this.

I don't believe this is happening.

If by any chance it really is happening, then no I don't support that.



Is your position that society should protect unborn girls really that different than my position that society should protect all unborn children? Why should society get involved in one situation to protect the life of a child, but not the other?

hawk2618
05-31-2012, 10:06 PM
Getting drunk is a sin?? WOW....if that's the case,if the Kings win the Stanley Cup...I will be committing a huge sin by getting hammered!! BTW...I'm sure God will forgive me as long as I'm not behind the wheel!! ~~DaveC.

shrewsbury
05-31-2012, 10:30 PM
justalex, what rules does christianity impose that you don't like?

just curious

Zimbow
05-31-2012, 11:26 PM
i understand what he is trying to say as well. I would not advocate 20 partners before marriage for anyone, however i do see a benefit for couples in long-term celibate relationships to "experiment" with their sexual compatibility before they actually marry. Much like i am in favour of couples experiencing "living together" before they commit.

+1

JustAlex
05-31-2012, 11:51 PM
justalex, what rules does christianity impose that you don't like?

just curious

Well, here are a few:

no fornication (I have fornicated many times and I don't think I'm an evil person)

no masturbation (Same as above)

no blasphemy (Oh my god!)

no alcohol or getting drunk (I actually DON'T drink that much, but I don't like the idea of restricting what humans can ingest into their bodies)

^None of these things are "sins" IMO.....in fact I don't even believe in the concept of "sin".

Either way, Christianity imposes a lot of rules which I will NOT abide to.


BTW....just one last note, I didn't become an atheist just so I can "fornicate"....I became an atheist because I don't have enough evidence for god, I don't like religion, I don't like the bible, and I also don't believe in satan, demons, hell or heaven.

theonedru
06-01-2012, 12:19 AM
Abortion. What do we know about it. Conservatives are generally against abortion regardless of the reason. They are also against any type of contraception, sex education or any type of sexual freedom between consenting adults. The so called liberals are usually for sex education and sexual freedom but are also pro abortion for any reason at any time. My question is why can't we have some type of common sense when it comes to sex, abortion and other topics. For example I would think that we all agree that unwanted pregnancies are a bad thing. Instead of the liberal answer to have an abortion or the conservative answer of suck it up and deal with it why can't we prevent the problem in the first place by putting measures in place to reduce the amount of unwanted pregancies. Such as manditory sex ed in all schools (none of this abstinence only garbage which never works) as well as free public condom distribution. I would have absolutely no problem seeing my tax dollars going out to free condoms which many of us on here will also enjoy than to pay for welfare or AIDS patients. That wont happen because the first thing conservatives will cry out freedom of religion. What about freedom from religion? News flash not everyone shares the same religious views as you and just like you don't want anyone to restrict your right to practice your religion as you please you have no right to restrict someone from living their lives as they see fit because of YOUR religion. Once you realize that we all have to live together despite our difference and that you cannot make laws that restrict the free movements of others because of YOUR religion the world will be a much better place with lower instances of STDs and unwanted pregnancies. Your thoughts.

If you want to have sex but the condoms yourself, its called responsibility; If you choose to not use them and you get someone pregnant then man up and get a job, its called responsibility. If you want to abort the baby then cough up the dough yourself, take responsibility The problem with society today is that everyone is used to getting a free ride and I am sick and tired of paying for stupid peoples mistakes and ignorant choices. Its time people re-learned what responsibility and manning up means. Life isn't some cushy thing that people should glide through on the handouts of others. Life can be hard and cruel, nasty and near damning.... Of course this does not apply to all cases. there are always special occurrences though rare.

shrewsbury
06-01-2012, 09:25 AM
the problem with society today is that everyone is used to getting a free ride and i am sick and tired of paying for stupid peoples mistakes and ignorant choices. Its time people re-learned what responsibility and manning up means. Life isn't some cushy thing that people should glide through on the handouts of others.

+1

mrveggieman
06-01-2012, 11:47 AM
If you want to have sex but the condoms yourself, its called responsibility; If you choose to not use them and you get someone pregnant then man up and get a job, its called responsibility. If you want to abort the baby then cough up the dough yourself, take responsibility The problem with society today is that everyone is used to getting a free ride and I am sick and tired of paying for stupid peoples mistakes and ignorant choices. Its time people re-learned what responsibility and manning up means. Life isn't some cushy thing that people should glide through on the handouts of others. Life can be hard and cruel, nasty and near damning.... Of course this does not apply to all cases. there are always special occurrences though rare.


I agree to a certian extent with you. However some people in life make choices that are not in their or other peoples best intrest. If someone has unprotected sex and has a baby that they cannot take care of why should that baby suffer because of his or her parent's poor choices? Also if some has unprotected sex and gets AIDS yes that is because of their poor choices but ultimately both you and I will have to foot the bill in the form of higher taxes for health care. What's wrong with paying a little bit in the short term for education and contraceptives than paying a lot more in the long term for AIDS treatment and welfare?

Star_Cards
06-01-2012, 01:30 PM
If I tell you over and over again that you're doing something wrong (and in reality it's NOT wrong but perfectly natural) your brain will be wired to believe you are doing something wrong and that leads to self-hate.

This is what they do to gays by telling them their lifestyle is immoral.

They do the same to straight people by telling them that sex before marriage, masturbation, and certain sex positions (Like anal sex) is immoral.

That's what I meant by psychological damage.

oh, I hear you and that's an issue that I have with most religions teachings about sex. I get that they want to preach wait until marriage, but agree that telling a person sex if evil and bad and then all of the sudden after you have a wedding it is all fine can and does mess with a persons head. I know personally some friends who have been effected by that.

theonedru
06-01-2012, 02:51 PM
I agree to a certian extent with you. However some people in life make choices that are not in their or other peoples best intrest. If someone has unprotected sex and has a baby that they cannot take care of why should that baby suffer because of his or her parent's poor choices? Also if some has unprotected sex and gets AIDS yes that is because of their poor choices but ultimately both you and I will have to foot the bill in the form of higher taxes for health care. What's wrong with paying a little bit in the short term for education and contraceptives than paying a lot more in the long term for AIDS treatment and welfare?

Its not my fault they go through life with a "this wont happen to me attitude so I don't have to be careful attitude". I will save my $ to help those who truly need it or deserve it. Get rid of the easy ride and make people open their eyes to the real world

mrveggieman
06-01-2012, 03:13 PM
Its not my fault they go through life with a "this wont happen to me attitude so I don't have to be careful attitude". I will save my $ to help those who truly need it or deserve it. Get rid of the easy ride and make people open their eyes to the real world

Most babies born to teenaged parents do not have that attitude.

OnePimpTiger
06-02-2012, 01:25 AM
A question that came to mind:

If you believe in abiogenesis and that's when life on earth began, how is a zygote not life as well?

If a zygote is not life, did life on earth not begin until the first fully developed animal came about?

My opposition to abortion is not based on religion, it's based on the right to freedom. Abortion is preventing another human from life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Regardless of what they are at the time, they would become a living human and abortion, if not destroying life, at the very least prevents life that would otherwise occur.

And the vast majority of abortions are based on personal preference alone...the preference not to be a teen mother, not to have an extra expenditure, not to change a lifestyle. I personally believe if you get pregnant, you should take responsibility for your actions and "I'm not ready to have a child at this point in my life" is not a sufficient excuse. If you're not ready to have a child, don't have unprotected sex...it's not rocket science. The complete lack of personal responsibility today is the #1 problem in our society and, in most cases, abortion is just another example of that.

And as to the "people have desires" argument: People have desires to drink before age 21, to smoke before age 18, to do drugs at any age, etc, etc, etc,...that doesn't make it acceptable. Choosing to have unprotected sex resulting in pregnancy is equal to choosing to drink and drive and getting in a wreck...you made a bad choice that changes your life and potentially others, some of whom have no say in the matter. It's a choice that can end badly, you know that going in, but you choose to take the action anyway. You drink and drive, you might get in a wreck and/or you might go to jail...you have unprotected sex, you may get/get someone pregnant. You make the choice, you accept the consequences.

Aikman_TheGreat
06-04-2012, 03:50 AM
I love all the "pro-choice" crap, if you make the choice to reproduce then you need to deal with the reproduction. You made the choice to do what you did, so quit trying to use the "I make the choice for my body" excuse. You already made your choice.

JustAlex
06-04-2012, 04:40 AM
I love all the "pro-choice" crap, if you make the choice to reproduce then you need to deal with the reproduction. You made the choice to do what you did, so quit trying to use the "I make the choice for my body" excuse. You already made your choice.

So?

You don't think people are capable of making mistakes they regret?

Why make a mistake into a BIGGER mistake.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Why bring a child into this world which you do NOT love, are NOT willing to care for, and will probably be neglected?

Why do Anti-abortion people want to force others into what they believe?

If you believe abortion in wrong 100% of the time....GREAT, keep that to yourself....and PRAY that you are never in the heart-wrenching decision of whether or not to abort a fetus!

However, you can't decide for other people.


If I think smoking and drinking is wrong (and BTW I DO believe it's wrong) that doesn't mean I force others NOT to smoke or drink.

I don't like abortion either, but I don't force people to think like I do, I respect other people's decisions.

That's why I'm Pro-choice :)

mrveggieman
06-04-2012, 11:58 AM
I love all the "pro-choice" crap, if you make the choice to reproduce then you need to deal with the reproduction. You made the choice to do what you did, so quit trying to use the "I make the choice for my body" excuse. You already made your choice.


CHURCH!! :love0030::love0030::love0030:

OnePimpTiger
06-04-2012, 10:28 PM
If I think smoking and drinking is wrong (and BTW I DO believe it's wrong) that doesn't mean I force others NOT to smoke or drink

That's not a correct comparison. Choosing to drink or smoke corresponds to choosing to have sex...the actions can be done responsibly or irresponsibly. Getting pregnant as a result of the choice to have unprotected sex corresponds to getting in a wreck or getting arrested as a result of the choice to drink and drive.

OnePimpTiger
06-04-2012, 10:29 PM
I love all the "pro-choice" crap, if you make the choice to reproduce then you need to deal with the reproduction. You made the choice to do what you did, so quit trying to use the "I make the choice for my body" excuse. You already made your choice.

The single most succinct and accurate response...ever.

tpeichel
06-04-2012, 10:43 PM
So?

You don't think people are capable of making mistakes they regret?

Why make a mistake into a BIGGER mistake.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Why bring a child into this world which you do NOT love, are NOT willing to care for, and will probably be neglected?

Why do Anti-abortion people want to force others into what they believe?

If you believe abortion in wrong 100% of the time....GREAT, keep that to yourself....and PRAY that you are never in the heart-wrenching decision of whether or not to abort a fetus!

However, you can't decide for other people.


If I think smoking and drinking is wrong (and BTW I DO believe it's wrong) that doesn't mean I force others NOT to smoke or drink.

I don't like abortion either, but I don't force people to think like I do, I respect other people's decisions.


So you'd respect my decision to shoot the chef at a restaurant if he overcooked my steak? Our society has all kinds of laws to protect the weak and the innocent, I don't understand why the unborn don't merit our protection?

You claim to be pro-choice, but you said you would not respect a woman's right to choose if they decided to abort a baby girl because the woman was hoping for a boy? How is that pro-choice? Aren't you forcing oher people to think like you? Wouldn't a real pro-choice attitude be that the woman could abort any baby, any time they wanted, for any reason?

shrewsbury
06-04-2012, 10:52 PM
you guys got me looking up abortion stats, WOW

look at this

http://www.abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_abortion_statistics/

here's the real link to back it up

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6015a1.htm?s_cid=ss6015a1_w

habsheaven
06-04-2012, 11:03 PM
The numbers on this site pretty much mirror what my perceptions of abortion were. Nothing really surprising to me.



you guys got me looking up abortion stats, WOW

look at this

http://www.abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_abortion_statistics/

here's the real link to back it up

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6015a1.htm?s_cid=ss6015a1_w

JustAlex
06-04-2012, 11:10 PM
So you'd respect my decision to shoot the chef at a restaurant if he overcooked my steak? Our society has all kinds of laws to protect the weak and the innocent, I don't understand why the unborn don't merit our protection?

Swing and a miss buddy....

Science and biology says that up until the 22-24 week period, a fetus is NOT a viable human being, meaning it does NOT have any rights.

You compare the decision to abort a NON viable human to killing a fully grown adult?

Please try again!


You claim to be pro-choice, but you said you would not respect a woman's right to choose if they decided to abort a baby girl because the woman was hoping for a boy? How is that pro-choice? Aren't you forcing oher people to think like you? Wouldn't a real pro-choice attitude be that the woman could abort any baby, any time they wanted, for any reason?
I said I wouldn't support sex-selective abortions personally.

If other people want to do that, and it's a LEGAL abortion, then there's nothing I can say about it.

And I would have to respect the decision even if I don't like it.

JustAlex
06-04-2012, 11:16 PM
You know what I really don't like about "Anti-abortionists"?

All you do is COMPLAIN and say NO to everything you don't like!

But you have NO SOLUTIONS to the problem.

Banning abortion is NOT a solution, it would only make the problem bigger once women have to resort to illegal "back alley" abortions and many would suffer.

What is your solution "Anti-abortionists"?

Will you also FORCE a woman to have the child of her rapist?

Will you FORCE a woman to have a child when it poses a threat to her life?

Will you FORCE a woman to have a child fully knowing she doesn't want it and the child will most likely be abused?


YOU guys have NOTHING, you only want to force others to do what you believe to be right.

boba
06-04-2012, 11:31 PM
Swing and a miss buddy....

Science and biology says that up until the 22-24 week period, a fetus is NOT a viable human being, meaning it does NOT have any rights.



Actually, your a viable human being at conception. At that point you have a good chance to survive if you are not aborted.

shrewsbury
06-05-2012, 12:34 AM
so no one should be held responsible for their actions?

people should be able to kill because it is a burden to their job or education?

people should be able to get pregnant and say i don't want it and it bears no price except $450 at the clinic?

rape and medical conditions are not the average person getting an abortion, this is not even in the top 3 reasons

JustAlex
06-05-2012, 12:53 AM
so no one should be held responsible for their actions?

If a woman get's pregnant and decides to abort, you think that's an easy decision?

You don't think that most of them are torn apart over whether or not to do it?

But in the end it's THEIR decision....NOT YOURS!


people should be able to kill because it is a burden to their job or education?

Why do you call it killing?

Can't you see it's NOT the same!

When a woman gets pregnant there is a living being inside HER body, the rights of that woman take precedent over a NON-Viable human.

Do you understand what the word viability means?

It means, that being is NOT able to survive outside the womb.....and until that being is viable, the woman's body and rights take precedent....it's that simple!


people should be able to get pregnant and say i don't want it and it bears no price except $450 at the clinic?

If that's their decision then YES!

I've said it about 10 times already and I'll say it again.....why make a mistake into a BIGGER mistake?


rape and medical conditions are not the average person getting an abortion, this is not even in the top 3 reasons

Do you know that 1% of abortions are because of rape?

When you hear 1% you think that's a very low number, but once you find out that 1% of 1,000,000 is TEN THOUSAND!


Then that no longer seems so insignificant, does it?

Once again....you can NOT have your cake and eat it too.

Banning abortion is NOT the answer.

boba
06-05-2012, 12:59 AM
Do you understand what the word viability means?

It means, that being is NOT able to survive outside the womb.....and until that being is viable, the woman's body and rights take precedent....it's that simple!



Definition of viability is

(of living things) capable of normal growth and development.

Seems like it would be after conception to me.

JustAlex
06-05-2012, 01:06 AM
^http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_viability


BTW...."living things capable of normal growth and development"

I guess my Sperm is capable of normal growth and development under the right conditions....am I murderer for using a condom?


There's a reason why abortion is legal in the U.S, because it is a SAFE medical procedure which the majority of doctors agree is NOT murder.

There's a reason why abortion is also legal in almost EVERY first world country.

Because they understand that the rights of a woman take precedent over non-viable human beings.

boba
06-05-2012, 01:09 AM
^http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_viability


BTW...."living things capable of normal growth and development"

I guess my Sperm is capable of normal growth and development under the right conditions....am I murderer for using a condom?


There's a reason why abortion is legal in the U.S, because it is a SAFE medical procedure which the majority of doctors agree is NOT murder.

There's a reason why abortion is also legal in almost EVERY first world country.

Because they understand that the rights of a woman take precedent over non-viable human beings.

Unless your like a superman, then no. Last I checked it has to be in a womans body to create growth.

JustAlex
06-05-2012, 01:17 AM
BTW, does anyone want to propose a solution to abortion?

*Crickets*

boba
06-05-2012, 01:20 AM
BTW, does anyone want to propose a solution to abortion?

*Crickets*

If it's murder, then ban it like any other form of murder.

JustAlex
06-05-2012, 01:28 AM
If it's murder, then ban it like any other form of murder.

But it's NOT murder, and if we ban it...

Then you're forcing about 15,000 women to have the child of her rapist.

You're forcing about 60,000 women to have a child that poses a threat to her life.

You're forcing "X-amount" of women to have a child they do not love nor want and will probably neglect.


Let me guess, next you're going to say adoption.

OK, there are about 1.5 million abortions per year, are we going to place the majority of those UNWANTED kids into orphanages where most of them will probably NOT be adopted?

boba
06-05-2012, 01:32 AM
But it's NOT murder, and if we ban it...

Then you're forcing about 15,000 women to have the child of her rapist.

You're forcing about 60,000 women to have a child that poses a threat to her life.

You're forcing "X-amount" of women to have a child they do not love nor want and will probably neglect.


Let me guess, next you're going to say adoption.

OK, there are about 1.5 million abortions per year, are we going to place the majority of those UNWANTED kids into orphanages where most of them will probably NOT be adopted?

You have not come close to convincing me of this.
If it is murder none of the rest of what you wrote is relevant.

JustAlex
06-05-2012, 01:46 AM
You have not come close to convincing me of this.
If it is murder none of the rest of what you wrote is relevant.

LOL, What?

OK, so you'd be perfectly fine if your sister/daughter/wife/girlfriend were to be raped and she would have no choice but to have that child?

You would be perfectly fine with telling a woman that she HAS to bear a child that poses a threat to her life and maybe the child as well?

You would be perfectly fine with sending potentially millions of kids into households where they would be neglected and abused?


Please tell me why you think this is all OK, but aborting a non-viable fetus is "wrong"?

You see, you have NO solution for abortion, in your mind you believe it's wrong (and it's fine that you think that way), but you want to impose your beliefs into other people as well.


Why do you even care what others do?

If you really cared for these aborted fetuses then you would be for HIGHER taxes which can be given to low income families to support them in having a child so they don't have to abort.....but of course in the other thread, you don't support higher taxes.

You basically want to have your cake and eat it as well.

You don't care for these kids, you only care for your ideology.

boba
06-05-2012, 01:50 AM
Actually it's pretty simple, murder is wrong in all circumstances.

habsheaven
06-05-2012, 08:57 AM
Actually it's pretty simple, murder is wrong in all circumstances.

Nevermind, I misread "killing" for "murder".

Star_Cards
06-05-2012, 11:19 AM
You have not come close to convincing me of this.
If it is murder none of the rest of what you wrote is relevant.

I think it's relevant. I don't think that abortion is typically an easy decision for most people, but there are valid reasons why a women should be allowed to abort a child in the early stages. You obviously don;t agree with that and that is perfectly fine. Then if you were ever in the instance were carrying a baby to full term and putting your wife or girl friends life in jeopardy then you have the right to choose to take that risk. you'll also have the right to carry or have your wife or girlfriend carry a baby from a man that raped her. You'd have the right to decide for yourself on what criteria you'd consider reason to abort or not.

I agree that there are a lot of abortions that aren't considered valid in my opinion, but if you just banned abortion across the board there would be a lot of women that have pretty valid reasons to abort that wouldn't have that option.

here's a question. If abortion is murder then isn't forcing a women to carry a child at the risk of her life also murder if she does in fact die?

I get that abortion should be a last resort sort of thing and don't see myself even deciding to use it as an option unless there were some very dire circumstances, but I still feel that you can't ban it.

Star_Cards
06-05-2012, 11:21 AM
Actually it's pretty simple, murder is wrong in all circumstances.

that isn't true. there are instances where murder can be justified.

shrewsbury
06-05-2012, 11:50 AM
that isn't true. there are instances where murder can be justified.

now we are using a play on words, but i get what you mean. i would not say murder is justified, but killing is.

mrveggieman
06-05-2012, 12:14 PM
I have been reading the last few posts on this thread and it goes back to what I said in the OP. There is no common sense in sex and human reproduction. It seems like I am the only one who his anti abortion who has any viable soultions. I am in favor of manditory sex ed in schools, free prublic distribution of contraceptives and more social programs to help poor mothers and childrens but all of the other anti abortion people pretty much refuse any thing short of absitnence that would prevent pregnancy and once the woman or girl gets pregnant they will tell her to never have an abortion under any circumstances but then completely turn their backs on her and her child when she needs assistance. It just dosen't make any sense.

@ Just Alex you are right except for myself I do hear the crickets chriping when you ask any other anti abortion person for alternatives to abortion.

Star_Cards
06-05-2012, 12:29 PM
now we are using a play on words, but i get what you mean. i would not say murder is justified, but killing is.

I guess by definition murder is a killing that is unlawful so I agree that killing is the better word to use in my statement.

I ment to say that there are instances where a life is taken and it is justified.

Star_Cards
06-05-2012, 12:31 PM
now we are using a play on words, but i get what you mean. i would not say murder is justified, but killing is.

agreed. I was using murder and killing interchangeably which was incorrect.

Star_Cards
06-05-2012, 12:34 PM
I have been reading the last few posts on this thread and it goes back to what I said in the OP. There is no common sense in sex and human reproduction. It seems like I am the only one who his anti abortion who has any viable soultions. I am in favor of manditory sex ed in schools, free prublic distribution of contraceptives and more social programs to help poor mothers and childrens but all of the other anti abortion people pretty much refuse any thing short of absitnence that would prevent pregnancy and once the woman or girl gets pregnant they will tell her to never have an abortion under any circumstances but then completely turn their backs on her and her child when she needs assistance. It just dosen't make any sense.

@ Just Alex you are right except for myself I do hear the crickets chriping when you ask any other anti abortion person for alternatives to abortion.

I'm pro sex ed, not making sex such a taboo issue, and all of that you mentioned above, but that doesn't change the fact that society would still have the need for abortion to be legal. If you take all of the women who use abortion for selfish reasons or the women who use it as a form of birth control you'd still have women who would have legitimate reasons to have an abortion. For me that alone is reason enough to not ban it.

shrewsbury
06-05-2012, 12:47 PM
If you take all of the women who use abortion for selfish reasons or the women who use it as a form of birth control you'd still have women who would have legitimate reasons to have an abortion. For me that alone is reason enough to not ban it.

I agree

mrveggieman
06-05-2012, 01:38 PM
I'm pro sex ed, not making sex such a taboo issue, and all of that you mentioned above, but that doesn't change the fact that society would still have the need for abortion to be legal. If you take all of the women who use abortion for selfish reasons or the women who use it as a form of birth control you'd still have women who would have legitimate reasons to have an abortion. For me that alone is reason enough to not ban it.


I would be willing to make exceptions for rape, incest or if the mother's life or health is in grave danger. Other than that it should be outlawed.

habsheaven
06-05-2012, 01:45 PM
I would be willing to make exceptions for rape, incest or if the mother's life or health is in grave danger. Other than that it should be outlawed.

Why in these cases? Is it now not a life deserving of living?

boba
06-05-2012, 01:54 PM
now we are using a play on words, but i get what you mean. i would not say murder is justified, but killing is.


Why would this be killing and not murder? What crime has the baby committed? Why punish the baby for an injustice that another has committed? Also in the case of rape and incest, isn't aborting the baby protecting the men responsible?

You see what I'm saying?

mrveggieman
06-05-2012, 02:24 PM
Why would this be killing and not murder? What crime has the baby committed? Why punish the baby for an injustice that another has committed? Also in the case of rape and incest, isn't aborting the baby protecting the men responsible?

You see what I'm saying?


In the case of rape it would be protecting the woman. Be honest can you realistically expect someone who has just expericenced being voilated to carry their attacker's baby for 9 months then to love and care for it for the next 18-21 years? With incet it would be protecting all parties involved.

mrveggieman
06-05-2012, 02:25 PM
Why in these cases? Is it now not a life deserving of living?


There are always exceptions. Just like most pro life people (myself included) are pro death penalty which is also taking away a life.

boba
06-05-2012, 02:33 PM
1. In the case of rape it would be protecting the woman. Be honest can you realistically expect someone who has just expericenced being voilated to carry their attacker's baby for 9 months then to love and care for it for the next 18-21 years?

2. With incet it would be protecting all parties involved.

1. Why is the one good thing that comes from a rape case the scapegoat. Killing the baby really isn't going to make the situation any better. there are many people who have been born from rape circumstances that have been given up for adoption or raised by their mother. Plain and simple these people do not deserve to die.

2. The only person it protects is the man responsible.

boba
06-05-2012, 02:35 PM
There are always exceptions. Just like most pro life people (myself included) are pro death penalty which is also taking away a life.


You can't compare the two. The baby has committed no crime and should not be scapegoated for teh injustice that it's father committed.

shrewsbury
06-05-2012, 02:49 PM
the death penalty is killing not murder. a soldier on the battlefield kills they do not murder.

i am for the death penalty, but against abortion, except for the reasons mrveggie stated

boba, i get what you are saying, and cannot say i agree with killing any unborn child, but there are always exceptions and i am unsure what to do about rape or incest babies

habsheaven
06-05-2012, 03:14 PM
the death penalty is killing not murder. a soldier on the battlefield kills they do not murder.

i am for the death penalty, but against abortion, except for the reasons mrveggie stated

boba, i get what you are saying, and cannot say i agree with killing any unborn child, but there are always exceptions and i am unsure what to do about rape or incest babies

I will answer this question for you and veggieman since you both have no real answer to it. Although you both claim to be pro-life you are in fact both pro-choice. How do I know this? I will explain. Both of you place a value on the life of that fetus. That value is being determined based on how the fetus was conceived. In each case, you value the mental health of the mother above the value of the fetus.

A true pro-life individual would only place the actual value of the mother's LIFE above that of the fetus.

mrveggieman
06-05-2012, 03:23 PM
the death penalty is killing not murder. a soldier on the battlefield kills they do not murder.

i am for the death penalty, but against abortion, except for the reasons mrveggie stated

boba, i get what you are saying, and cannot say i agree with killing any unborn child, but there are always exceptions and i am unsure what to do about rape or incest babies


Wow I have been called a lot of things on here, from racist, to anti-white, anti-christian, anti-gay why not be called pro abortion to boot.

JustAlex
06-05-2012, 03:41 PM
1. Why is the one good thing that comes from a rape case the scapegoat. Killing the baby really isn't going to make the situation any better. there are many people who have been born from rape circumstances that have been given up for adoption or raised by their mother. Plain and simple these people do not deserve to die.

Oh boy....I'm not quite sure how to even respond.

Are you trolling us.....or are you Rick Santorum?


the death penalty is killing not murder. a soldier on the battlefield kills they do not murder.

i am for the death penalty, but against abortion, except for the reasons mrveggie stated

You are for protecting NON-viable humans, but PRO killing fully grown adults?

Wait....what's that law in the bible???

OH YEAH....Thou shall NOT Kill.....ANYONE!

Gotta love the contradiction though...

boba
06-05-2012, 04:02 PM
Oh boy....I'm not quite sure how to even respond.

Are you trolling us.....or are you Rick Santorum?





Are you saying that a child born from rape is a bad human or something? Whats your point?

boba
06-05-2012, 04:06 PM
You don't care for these kids, you only care for your ideology.

Wow, just looked back and found this.

Comments like this are really going to make people lose all respect for you, as I just have.

Just so you know me and my family have spent the last 16 years devoted to children like these as a foster-adoptive family.

This has helped me form my ideology.

Star_Cards
06-05-2012, 04:10 PM
I would be willing to make exceptions for rape, incest or if the mother's life or health is in grave danger. Other than that it should be outlawed.

well, I've asked this in a few threads in the past and never really got any sort of reply.

in the case of rape, how does a women go about the process of proving that she was raped? does she have to file a police report? does she have to be examined right after the rape so there are medical records of a rape? there are different kinds of rape and many don't get reported and many can;t really be proven by a women. It would be very difficult to set a standard by which an abortion would be allowed only in cases of rape.

for the medical reason how do you determine this? if there a law that states what the benchmark of risk of life must be before a women would be allowed to have an abortion to save her life? it is set by percentages of risk? if so who sets this and why do they get to decide the amount of risk a women should take with her own life.

for incest, how is this proven? I assume that they can take DNA of a fetus or embryo. Is that risky to the fetus or embryo?

There just seems to be way too many issues with banning abortion and allowing it in certain instances.

theonedru
06-05-2012, 04:18 PM
I would be willing to make exceptions for rape, incest or if the mother's life or health is in grave danger. Other than that it should be outlawed.

That makes zero sense, you are either for it, against it, or just don't care ... There is no treading the fence.

JustAlex
06-05-2012, 04:18 PM
Are you saying that a child born from rape is a bad human or something? Whats your point?

No, I'm not saying that.

In what way do you think that a woman that has just been raped is it fair to force her to bear a child from her rapist?

Don't you see this is a terrible thing to do to a woman?

It is literally adding insult to injury!

Even in VERY RELIGIOUS countries like Brazil (where abortion is ILLEGAL) they allow certain exceptions to the rule if a woman has been raped.


You are advocating for a FULL BAN no matter what.

Again....there's a reason why it IS legal, and there's a reason why almost EVERY first world country also makes it legal.

We understand that the rights of woman take precedent over non-viable humans.


Now here is an interesting question for YOU:

Why does America have the 2nd MOST abortions in the world (In first place is RUSSIA), when 80% of it's citizens consider themselves religious?

The number of Abortions in the U.S PER YEAR = 1,500,000!

What do you think would happen if abortion became illegal?

theonedru
06-05-2012, 04:27 PM
Now here is an interesting question for YOU:

Why does America have the 2nd MOST abortions in the world (In first place is RUSSIA), when 80% of it's citizens consider themselves religious?

The number of Abortions in the U.S PER YEAR = 1,500,000!

What do you think would happen if abortion became illegal?

Depends on your viewpoint, what are you trying to say by stating this so I can respond properly

habsheaven
06-05-2012, 04:30 PM
well, I've asked this in a few threads in the past and never really got any sort of reply.

in the case of rape, how does a women go about the process of proving that she was raped? does she have to file a police report? does she have to be examined right after the rape so there are medical records of a rape? there are different kinds of rape and many don't get reported and many can;t really be proven by a women. It would be very difficult to set a standard by which an abortion would be allowed only in cases of rape.

for the medical reason how do you determine this? if there a law that states what the benchmark of risk of life must be before a women would be allowed to have an abortion to save her life? it is set by percentages of risk? if so who sets this and why do they get to decide the amount of risk a women should take with her own life.

for incest, how is this proven? I assume that they can take DNA of a fetus or embryo. Is that risky to the fetus or embryo?

There just seems to be way too many issues with banning abortion and allowing it in certain instances.

I will attempt an answer for you because it is worth discussing. For rape, a police report should suffice. For a case that the women's life is in danger, a doctor's report should suffice. As for incest, that is much like a rape and again, a police report should be enough. Proving the validity of claims, or degrees of risk should not be a factor.

JustAlex
06-05-2012, 04:38 PM
Depends on your viewpoint, what are you trying to say by stating this so I can respond properly

Well, in most religions (especially Christianity) it is taught that abortion is MURDER and immoral.

So, again, why does the U.S despite being 80% religious (75% Christians) have so many abortions (1.5 Million!).


Sure, many of us LOVE to say we are "Pro-life" but when it happens to you (An unwanted pregnancy) then you throw out all of your beliefs for your own selfish wants.

If we really acted upon our beliefs then the U.S wouldn't be in 2nd place in terms of abortions.

theonedru
06-05-2012, 04:38 PM
I will attempt an answer for you because it is worth discussing. For rape, a police report should suffice. For a case that the women's life is in danger, a doctor's report should suffice. As for incest, that is much like a rape and again, a police report should be enough. Proving the validity of claims, or degrees of risk should not be a factor.

Umm no no no, with pregnancy via incest you need to prove it wasn't the woman that instigated it, and if it was would the abortion not just be an easy "cop out" using it as a form of birth control..

The way you state it implies the male instigated it, which is not always 100% of the case, that or its a mutual agreement as such again its using it as a form of birth control....

habsheaven
06-05-2012, 04:42 PM
Yes, I guess I did generalize that. How about this? If she claims the pregnancy is the result of incest, you charge her with a crime and use the police report as reason enough to perform an abortion.

theonedru
06-05-2012, 05:02 PM
why condemn the child for the crime of the parent...

mrveggieman
06-05-2012, 05:12 PM
If it turns out that the woman lied about being raped in order to have an abortion would you be ok with her being charged with murder? Why or why not?

mrveggieman
06-05-2012, 05:14 PM
That makes zero sense, you are either for it, against it, or just don't care ... There is no treading the fence.


I'm only doing what any politician would do when it comes to abortion. :sign0020:

JustAlex
06-05-2012, 05:16 PM
We can all go back and forth on which abortions merit legality and which don't....

However, the REAL issue would NOT be resolved.

In the abortion statistics:

The majority of abortions are to LOW INCOME FAMILIES.

If you FORCE them to have the child you are putting a burden on the family and the TAXPAYERS!

You want to FORCE low income families to raise a child they don't have the money for and then you as TAXPAYERS don't want to help either!


Anyone have a solution for this?

theonedru
06-05-2012, 05:58 PM
We can all go back and forth on which abortions merit legality and which don't....

However, the REAL issue would NOT be resolved.

In the abortion statistics:

The majority of abortions are to LOW INCOME FAMILIES.

If you FORCE them to have the child you are putting a burden on the family and the TAXPAYERS!

You want to FORCE low income families to raise a child they don't have the money for and then you as TAXPAYERS don't want to help either!


Anyone have a solution for this?

Abstinence, protection, surgery..... Actually thinking about the consequences of your actions... There are 4 just off the top of my head without even putting any thought into it

JustAlex
06-05-2012, 06:06 PM
Abstinence, protection, surgery..... Actually thinking about the consequences of your actions... There are 4 just off the top of my head without even putting any thought into it

Abstinence....You're really going to tell fully grown adults to be abstinent?

Protection......I'm definitely in favor of more contraceptives being easily available and affordable, but sometimes people mess up and can't control themselves....I'm forced to bring this argument ONCE Again: Why make a mistake into a BIGGER mistake?

Surgery......Even if it was affordable (I'm not sure how much it costs) most people won't like the idea of being sterile.....some people are waiting for the opportune time to have kids, unfortunately like I've already said, people are NOT perfect and they mess up and have an unwanted pregnancy.

Thinking about your consequences.....no human is perfect, and most of us DO think of the consequences, sometimes it "just happens", we all know all the risks to smoking and drinking and yet we STILL DO IT....


IMO, there are NO easy solution to abortion, and until we can have a way to have safer sex or a better way to prevent unwanted pregnancy, abortion at the moment is a legal and safe way to remove an unwanted pregnancy.


It is NOT murder, and the fetus is NOT a viable human being.

Star_Cards
06-05-2012, 06:07 PM
I will attempt an answer for you because it is worth discussing. For rape, a police report should suffice. For a case that the women's life is in danger, a doctor's report should suffice. As for incest, that is much like a rape and again, a police report should be enough. Proving the validity of claims, or degrees of risk should not be a factor.

so force all women to file a police report in all instances of rape just in case they may become pregnant so they can have an abortion if they want? I don't see that even happening. I'm not sure what percentage of rapes are reported, but there are many that aren't. I just don't see that process working. Not to mention that it would be a loop hole for any woman wanting an abortion.

theonedru
06-05-2012, 06:12 PM
Abstinence....You're really going to tell fully grown adults to be abstinent? As the old saying goes, if you can't accept the time don't do the crime.....

Protection......I'm definitely in favor of more contraceptives being easily available and affordable, but sometimes people mess up and can't control themselves....I'm forced to bring this argument ONCE Again: Why make a mistake into a BIGGER mistake? Goes back to my thinking before doing argument

Surgery......Even if it was affordable (I'm not sure how much it costs) most people won't like the idea of being sterile.....some people are waiting for the opportune time to have kids, unfortunately like I've already said, people are NOT perfect and they mess up and have an unwanted pregnancy.
again you do not mess up if you think it through first

IMO, there are NO easy solution to abortion, and until we can have a way to have safer sex or a better way to prevent unwanted pregnancy, abortion at the moment is a legal and safe way to remove an unwanted pregnancy.


It is NOT murder, and the fetus is NOT a viable human being.

And let me ask you why should the child be punished for the stupidity of the parents... And using someones poverty level is not a reason, its an excuse..

JustAlex
06-05-2012, 06:19 PM
And let me ask you why should the child be punished for the stupidity of the parents... And using someones poverty level is not a reason, its an excuse..

Because that "child" is not a viable human until AFTER the 22-24 week period.

And until then that "child" has absolutely NO RIGHTS!

A woman's rights takes precedent before a non-viable human, this is a choice she alone has to make.

Even if we all don't like it, we don't have a say in it and neither does the government.


I'm not sure how clearer it gets than that, if you want to say this is wrong...fine.

But at the moment it has worked, and every first world country uses this EFFECTIVE system.....and I don't consider it wrong or immoral at all.

theonedru
06-05-2012, 06:29 PM
Because that "child" is not a viable human until AFTER the 22-24 week period.
And until then that "child" has absolutely NO RIGHTS!
A woman's rights takes precedent before a non-viable human, this is a choice she alone has to make.
Even if we all don't like it, we don't have a say in it and neither does the government.
I'm not sure how clearer it gets than that, if you want to say this is wrong...fine.
But at the moment it has worked, and every first world country uses this EFFECTIVE system.....and I don't consider it wrong or immoral at all.

Nice rant but that didn't exactly answer my question as to why the offspring would be punished for the stupidity of the parents..... If these "low end" income families are getting the abortions then most likely the cost of the procedure is coming out of public coffers and that's not right. I refuse to be someones contraceptive contributor, there are much better uses for my funds I give the government because of their lack of planning or poor choices

JustAlex
06-05-2012, 06:45 PM
Nice rant but that didn't exactly answer my question as to why the offspring would be punished for the stupidity of the parents..... If these "low end" income families are getting the abortions then most likely the cost of the procedure is coming out of public coffers and that's not right. I refuse to be someones contraceptive contributor, there are much better uses for my funds I give the government because of their lack of planning or poor choices

Whoa, whoa, whoa....

Who said that the public is paying for abortions?

That's NOT true at all, please show me where you heard that!


And I DID answer your question, we are NOT punishing a child since that "child" is NOT a viable human.

It doesn't have rights, it's NOT a human in the sense of any other human who can live outside his/her mothers womb.....this is what viability means.

theonedru
06-05-2012, 06:48 PM
Whoa, whoa, whoa....

Who said that the public is paying for abortions?

That's NOT true at all, please show me where you heard that!


And I DID answer your question, we are NOT punishing a child since that "child" is NOT a viable human.

It doesn't have rights, it's NOT a human in the sense of any other human who can live outside his/her mothers womb.....this is what viability means.

Well if they be poor whey they getting the $ for the abortion procedure then?

JustAlex
06-05-2012, 06:53 PM
Well if they be poor whey they getting the $ for the abortion procedure then?

An abortion procedure is relatively "cheap"....the average cost is between $350 - $550.

http://civilliberty.about.com/od/abortion/f/Average-Cost-of-an-Abortion.htm

theonedru
06-05-2012, 07:03 PM
An abortion procedure is relatively "cheap"....the average cost is between $350 - $550.

http://civilliberty.about.com/od/abortion/f/Average-Cost-of-an-Abortion.htm

Thats not cheap when your poor, esp if you have had to pay it multiple times, so it would easier to just think before you have sex in the first place and get over the notion its ok to be irresponsible because its not.

JustAlex
06-05-2012, 07:13 PM
Thats not cheap when your poor, esp if you have had to pay it multiple times, so it would easier to just think before you have sex in the first place and get over the notion its ok to be irresponsible because its not.

I agree.

I'm not saying that people should have all the unprotected sex they want and later abort.

I'm just defending the RIGHT to have an abortion.


Personally, I'm 24 years old, I've already finished college, but I STILL don't think I'm ready to be a father.

Therefore I always use protection, however; I'll admit that there have been times (because I'm human and it's tough to control) where I have had unprotected sex.....now, am I being irresponsible....SURE, but we're humans, we make mistakes.

If the girl got pregnant it would be HER decision whether or not to abort it and there's really nothing I can say.

JustAlex
06-05-2012, 07:19 PM
Oh BTW, you say it's NOT cheap for poor people....well, that should be a deterrent for them!

If abortions were "dirt cheap" then everyone would have one, but now that I think about it, you're right....$350-$550 is NOT cheap for poor people.


So there IS a consequence to getting pregnant, some Anti-abortionists say that people who have abortions are escaping the consequences, well, NO they're NOT!

They have to have a procedure which I'm sure must NOT be an easy choice, and it's gonna cost them some money.


So there you go....they are dealing with the consequences.

habsheaven
06-05-2012, 07:36 PM
why condemn the child for the crime of the parent...

I was trying to explain how it could be done. I wasn't saying that I agree with any of it.

habsheaven
06-05-2012, 07:38 PM
Again, I was trying to say how a system proposed by the "abortion only in the case of incest and rape" crowd could be set up. I cannot answer your question because I do not think it is murder in...

habsheaven
06-05-2012, 07:44 PM
No, if the system was set to only allow abortions in cases of rape then the person requesting the abortion would have to have a police report to show that there is some merit to her claim of rape...

shrewsbury
06-05-2012, 10:55 PM
You are for protecting NON-viable humans, but PRO killing fully grown adults?


didn't know babies could murder and rape


Wait....what's that law in the bible???

eye for an eye

JustAlex
06-06-2012, 12:02 AM
didn't know babies could murder and rape
You're right babies can't murder or rape...

However NON-viable humans can't do anything PERIOD!


eye for an eye

So you agree that the bible contradicts itself?

DiebytheCubs
06-06-2012, 01:19 AM
Abortion is such a tough issue for a number of reasons. There's the age old argument that "a woman's body is her own" but at some point it's not just her anymore. At the same time, the world's population recently passed 7 billion and shows no sign of slowing down meaning overpopulation will quickly become a major issue. There is so much more I could write but I'm losing battery fast. Just wanted to add my two cents worth.

Star_Cards
06-06-2012, 09:51 AM
It would force them to bring the issue to the legal system. A lot of rapes never even get that far as the victim chooses to deal with it in other ways or not relive the rape. I don't think the answer...

habsheaven
06-06-2012, 10:03 AM
It would force them to bring the issue to the legal system. A lot of rapes never even get that far as the victim chooses to deal with it in other ways or not relive the rape. I don't think the answer is having to file a police report if they ever made abortion legal only in these certain instances.

I don't think a lot of people would file false reports but surely some would so maybe not a complete loophole. The police report doesn't seem like a good way to solve the issue of being allowed to abort because of rape. I don't think a women should be required to report a rape to qualify for the restricted abortion procedure in this scenario.

Well it is the best answer I can come up with. It may not be perfect but it is far from impossible.

mrveggieman
06-06-2012, 10:38 AM
If a woman files a false police report in order to get an abortion if she is not charged with murder since the pro abortion crowd does not believe that abortion is murder then what penalty should she...

habsheaven
06-06-2012, 10:53 AM
That is an impossible question to answer. First, if the legal requirements ever became such that rape was a requirement in order to have an abortion then she would be guilty of both "filing a false...

Star_Cards
06-06-2012, 11:54 AM
Well it is the best answer I can come up with. It may not be perfect but it is far from impossible.

definitely not impossible to limit it, just not warranted in my opinion. there would be too many issues with it. just doesn't seem all that practical to me.

Star_Cards
06-06-2012, 11:56 AM
interesting question. I like hab's answer. it would definitely be something to debate depending on the laws. I doubt the charge would be murder in this scenario. Probably something similar to hab's...

habsheaven
06-06-2012, 11:58 AM
definitely not impossible to limit it, just not warranted in my opinion. there would be too many issues with it. just doesn't seem all that practical to me.

I agree with you completely. Once again, I was just trying to explore the possibilities. I am definitely not advocating it.

mrveggieman
06-06-2012, 12:16 PM
Also lets not forget slander and defimation of character because she falsely accused someone of raping her.

Star_Cards
06-06-2012, 12:25 PM
I agree with you completely. Once again, I was just trying to explore the possibilities. I am definitely not advocating it.

completely understand. I'm a little curious as to why the people that have posted it should be restricted to rape, incest, and medical reasons haven't chimed in, but they never have in the past when I've posed the issues with restricting abortion to certain scenarios.

habsheaven
06-06-2012, 12:30 PM
Also lets not forget slander and defimation of character because she falsely accused someone of raping her.

I would think that the woman "falsely" claiming to be raped woudn't be stupid enough to actual say she knows the rapist. If it were to occur, it would more likely be a case of her not being able to give an adequate description of the rapist.

mrveggieman
06-06-2012, 12:34 PM
completely understand. I'm a little curious as to why the people that have posted it should be restricted to rape, incest, and medical reasons haven't chimed in, but they never have in the past when I've posed the issues with restricting abortion to certain scenarios.


IMO if a woman is pregnant and there is a chance that proceeding with her pregancy can cause death and or grave illness to the mother and or child it is not worth the risk of the pregnancy. With incest there is a greater chance of the child being mentally disturbed so it is not worth the risk. As far as a rape that is not the woman's fault and besides do you realistically expect the child to have an equal chance to suceed in life knowing that his/her father is in jail for raping their mother and the mother begrugingly gave birth to them? Again I am 100% against abortion and am proud to be anti-abortion despite what our buddy Habs thinks but in life there are always exceptions to every rule.

habsheaven
06-06-2012, 12:40 PM
IMO if a woman is pregnant and there is a chance that proceeding with her pregancy can cause death and or grave illness to the mother and or child it is not worth the risk of the pregnancy. With incest there is a greater chance of the child being mentally disturbed so it is not worth the risk. As far as a rape that is not the woman's fault and besides do you realistically expect the child to have an equal chance to suceed in life knowing that his/her father is in jail for raping their mother and the mother begrugingly gave birth to them? Again I am 100% against abortion and am proud to be anti-abortion despite what our buddy Habs thinks but in life there are always exceptions to every rule.

You are not 100% against abortion. Clearly, you are in favour of a woman CHOOSING to abort in the case of a rape. By stating so, you are clearly CHOOSING the woman's mental health over the fetus's life. How by any standard can that be PRO-LIFE?

It isn't. It is PRO-CHOICE. The only difference being the choice is more limited for you than it is for Alex or me.

mrveggieman
06-06-2012, 12:44 PM
I would think that the woman "falsely" claiming to be raped woudn't be stupid enough to actual say she knows the rapist. If it were to occur, it would more likely be a case of her not being able to give an adequate description of the rapist.


Disagree. If she is stupid enough to cry wolf about being raped then no telling what other stupid things she would do.

mrveggieman
06-06-2012, 12:46 PM
You are not 100% against abortion. Clearly, you are in favour of a woman CHOOSING to abort in the case of a rape. By stating so, you are clearly CHOOSING the woman's mental health over the fetus's life. How by any standard can that be PRO-LIFE?

It isn't. It is PRO-CHOICE. The only difference being the choice is more limited for you than it is for Alex or me.


I would like to think that all of us on here are aginst child abuse. So if you spank your child should we consider you a child abuser? Per your logic you would be since you make no exceptions to the rule.

habsheaven
06-06-2012, 12:52 PM
I would like to think that all of us on here are aginst child abuse. So if you spank your child should we consider you a child abuser? Per your logic you would be since you make no exceptions to the rule.

That's a terrible analogy, but I will answer it.

No, you should not consider me a child abuser because SPANKING YOUR CHILD IS NOT NECESSARILY ABUSE.

mrveggieman
06-06-2012, 01:15 PM
That's a terrible analogy, but I will answer it.

No, you should not consider me a child abuser because SPANKING YOUR CHILD IS NOT NECESSARILY ABUSE.


If a stranger is walking down the street takes his belt off and beats a child for no reason he is considered a child abuser. If you take your belt of to discipline your child because she cursed her teacher out it would be considered discipline even though you both performed the same act. It goes back to having exceptions for every situation in life. You are no more a child abuser for disciplining your kids than I am pro-abortion because I don't think that a woman who is raped should be forced to carry her rapists child.

habsheaven
06-06-2012, 02:00 PM
If a stranger is walking down the street takes his belt off and beats a child for no reason he is considered a child abuser. If you take your belt of to discipline your child because she cursed her teacher out it would be considered discipline even though you both performed the same act. It goes back to having exceptions for every situation in life. You are no more a child abuser for disciplining your kids than I am pro-abortion because I don't think that a woman who is raped should be forced to carry her rapists child.

Why do you insist on "changing scenarios" to explain your point? If a strange man attacks a child with a belt he is not a child abuser. He is someone guilt of assault. It just happens to be against a child. If a parent routinely disciplines their child with a belt, they probably are considered a child abuser by many.

Regardless, it has nothing to do with abortion. Maybe this will explain it better.

I am AGAINST abortion, EXCEPT in the following instances:

1) the woman's life is in danger
2) Rape
3) Incest
4) it is a 12 year old girl
5) it is my 15 year old girlfriend
6) it is my 15 year old daughter

YOU are AGAINST abortion, EXCEPT in the following instances (where you believe a choice is allowable):

1) the woman's life is in danger
2) Rape
3) Incest

Neither of us are PRO-ABORTION (despite your implications that I have called you such). We are both PRO-CHOICE. You limit your choice to 3 occasions and I limit mine to 6. The only REAL EXCEPTION is one where you choose to end the life to save another life. The rest are not exceptions, they are conveniences.

shrewsbury
06-06-2012, 02:29 PM
being impregnated via rape and incest is an inconvenience?

so you think rape and incest are equal to a 15 year old getting pregnant?

i would have to say you might be prochoice, but veggieman and I are not

things are rarely that black and white, there is usually some gray mixed in

mrveggieman
06-06-2012, 02:29 PM
Why do you insist on "changing scenarios" to explain your point? If a strange man attacks a child with a belt he is not a child abuser. He is someone guilt of assault. It just happens to be against a child. If a parent routinely disciplines their child with a belt, they probably are considered a child abuser by many.

Regardless, it has nothing to do with abortion. Maybe this will explain it better.

I am AGAINST abortion, EXCEPT in the following instances:

1) the woman's life is in danger
2) Rape
3) Incest
4) it is a 12 year old girl
5) it is my 15 year old girlfriend
6) it is my 15 year old daughter

YOU are AGAINST abortion, EXCEPT in the following instances (where you believe a choice is allowable):

1) the woman's life is in danger
2) Rape
3) Incest

Neither of us are PRO-ABORTION (despite your implications that I have called you such). We are both PRO-CHOICE. You limit your choice to 3 occasions and I limit mine to 6. The only REAL EXCEPTION is one where you choose to end the life to save another life. The rest are not exceptions, they are conveniences.

Your 15 year old g/f? :confused0024:

mrveggieman
06-06-2012, 02:31 PM
being impregnated via rape and incest is an inconvenience?

So you think rape and incest are equal to a 15 year old getting pregnant?

I would have to say you might be prochoice, but veggieman and i are not

things are rarely that black and white, there is usually some gray mixed in


+1,000

Star_Cards
06-06-2012, 03:07 PM
IMO if a woman is pregnant and there is a chance that proceeding with her pregancy can cause death and or grave illness to the mother and or child it is not worth the risk of the pregnancy. With incest there is a greater chance of the child being mentally disturbed so it is not worth the risk. As far as a rape that is not the woman's fault and besides do you realistically expect the child to have an equal chance to suceed in life knowing that his/her father is in jail for raping their mother and the mother begrugingly gave birth to them? Again I am 100% against abortion and am proud to be anti-abortion despite what our buddy Habs thinks but in life there are always exceptions to every rule.

I'm not arguing that those three instances merit more consideration when contemplating abortion than simply if a child would effect your social life or what have you. I just don't think it would be possible to ban all abortion unless if fell into the categories of those three mentioned above. It's just not feasible.

as far as Habs saying you were prochoice... I agree with him that if one thinks these three instances of pregnancy are cause for allowing abortion then by definition that person would be pro choice. It's to a lesser degree than people who think everyone that gets pregnant should be able to make that choice based on whatever personal reason they choose, but it's still by definition leaving the door open for some women who are pregnant to have the choice to abort or not.

Star_Cards
06-06-2012, 03:10 PM
Why do you insist on "changing scenarios" to explain your point? If a strange man attacks a child with a belt he is not a child abuser. He is someone guilt of assault. It just happens to be against a child. If a parent routinely disciplines their child with a belt, they probably are considered a child abuser by many.

Regardless, it has nothing to do with abortion. Maybe this will explain it better.

I am AGAINST abortion, EXCEPT in the following instances:

1) the woman's life is in danger
2) Rape
3) Incest
4) it is a 12 year old girl
5) it is my 15 year old girlfriend
6) it is my 15 year old daughter

YOU are AGAINST abortion, EXCEPT in the following instances (where you believe a choice is allowable):

1) the woman's life is in danger
2) Rape
3) Incest

Neither of us are PRO-ABORTION (despite your implications that I have called you such). We are both PRO-CHOICE. You limit your choice to 3 occasions and I limit mine to 6. The only REAL EXCEPTION is one where you choose to end the life to save another life. The rest are not exceptions, they are conveniences.

excellent post!

shrewsbury
06-06-2012, 03:38 PM
excellent post?

so a 15 year old getting pregnant by her boyfriend is the same as being raped?

habsheaven
06-06-2012, 03:45 PM
being impregnated via rape and incest is an inconvenience?

Yes, it is an inconvenience when you measure it up against killing an unborn child.

so you think rape and incest are equal to a 15 year old getting pregnant?

Where did I place degrees of equality on the different situations? I simply listed the reasons I deem an abortion to be acceptable.

i would have to say you might be prochoice, but veggieman and I are not

A raped women wants to kill her unborn child, you and veggieman are both okay with that. That's pro-choice, not pro-life. You cannot spin it to suit your conscience.

things are rarely that black and white, there is usually some gray mixed in

I agree.



Responses in bold.

habsheaven
06-06-2012, 03:46 PM
Your 15 year old g/f? :confused0024:

Believe it or not, i was 15 for a whole year in my life.

Star_Cards
06-06-2012, 03:47 PM
excellent post?

so a 15 year old getting pregnant by her boyfriend is the same as being raped?

what? where did he compare those two? he said for him those would or could be situations where he himself would be prochoice and might possibly choose abortion. I didn't see anything in his post that was comparing teenage pregnancy to rape pregnancy.

habsheaven
06-06-2012, 03:47 PM
excellent post?

so a 15 year old getting pregnant by her boyfriend is the same as being raped?

Who said it was the same thing? Why do you insist on twisting things to try and unvalidate it?

shrewsbury
06-06-2012, 05:06 PM
me and veggieman agree on someone who is forcibly impregnated or who will die should have an option of abortion, how the heck is that prochoice?????

even a teen who does not want a baby is not on our list

boba
06-06-2012, 05:14 PM
I actually agree with habheaven on this one :confused0054: : )

mrveggieman
06-06-2012, 05:23 PM
I actually agree with habheaven on this one :confused0054: : )


Is it because you have your own agenda? I'm confiscating your conservative card. :sign0020:

mrveggieman
06-06-2012, 05:24 PM
Believe it or not, i was 15 for a whole year in my life.


So you are completely ok with teaching our children irresponsiblity and telling them it is completely ok to abort their unborn child that they created?

JustAlex
06-06-2012, 05:48 PM
I've been reading many posts...some I agree with some I don't, It would take far too much time to respond to all the ones I want to.

However, I will say that I'm probably the ONLY ONE here that is in favor of ALL cases of Abortion being legal.


To me, I just don't view it as a human until it gets to viability.....you could say that eventually it will turn into a proper human baby, but that's not what we're arguing.

Until viability, you have an undeveloped human who is surviving only because of the woman's body.....it doesn't have it's own life, it's PART of the woman's body in some sort of way.

And thus, I believe a woman's body is her own, and she has rights to eliminate something from her body which she does not want.


I know this doesn't sound pretty, but the previous 8 pages or so have been about which abortions should be legal and which should not...

Who are we to properly say what merits an abortion and what doesn't, I believe that if a family doesn't have enough money to properly take care of a child, than abortion is a legal and safe way to get rid of that burden, it also saves money from the taxpayers.

mrveggieman
06-06-2012, 05:52 PM
Who are we to properly say what merits an abortion and what doesn't, I believe that if a family doesn't have enough money to properly take care of a child, than abortion is a legal and safe way to get rid of that burden, it also saves money from the taxpayers.


Or better yet save the tax payers even more money by providing manditory sex ed in all levels of public as well as private schools and free distribution of contraceptives everywhere. That would in turn reduce unwanted pregnancies and therefore reduce the demand for abortions. Again it wont eliminate the problem but it will put a huge dent in it.

ensbergcollector
06-06-2012, 05:55 PM
Or better yet save the tax payers even more money by providing manditory sex ed in all levels of public as well as private schools and free distribution of contraceptives everywhere. That would in turn reduce unwanted pregnancies and therefore reduce the demand for abortions. Again it wont eliminate the problem but it will put a huge dent in it.

just curious, you say this a lot, do you have anything to back up this stance? actually not trying to be combative, you just always throw it out there as fact.

habsheaven
06-06-2012, 06:11 PM
So you are completely ok with teaching our children irresponsiblity and telling them it is completely ok to abort their unborn child that they created?

I only get mildly irritated when you make these statements towards other members you disagree with. I get really irritated when you start putting words in my mouth.

I made my points. They are logical. Both you and Jay ALLOW women to make a CHOICE in some cases. In allowing that choice to be made you are agreeing to KILLING an unborn child to save the mother from any more mental anguish.

It is CRYSTAL CLEAR. It is not an exception, it is a CHOICE. You both are PRO-CHOICE in this instance.

The only people that can truly claim to be PRO-LIFE are those that only choose abortion if the woman's liife is threatened. In those cases they can argue they are PROTECTING a LIFE. In a rape or incest case, a LIFE is NOT being PROTECTED, it is being EXTINGUISHED!

If you need to respond to this, respond to the bolded part and explain why mental anguish is more important than LIFE!

stlcardinalsfan
06-06-2012, 06:14 PM
Abortion. What do we know about it. Conservatives are generally against abortion regardless of the reason. They are also against any type of contraception, sex education or any type of sexual freedom between consenting adults. The so called liberals are usually for sex education and sexual freedom but are also pro abortion for any reason at any time. My question is why can't we have some type of common sense when it comes to sex, abortion and other topics. For example I would think that we all agree that unwanted pregnancies are a bad thing. Instead of the liberal answer to have an abortion or the conservative answer of suck it up and deal with it why can't we prevent the problem in the first place by putting measures in place to reduce the amount of unwanted pregancies. Such as manditory sex ed in all schools (none of this abstinence only garbage which never works) as well as free public condom distribution. I would have absolutely no problem seeing my tax dollars going out to free condoms which many of us on here will also enjoy than to pay for welfare or AIDS patients. That wont happen because the first thing conservatives will cry out freedom of religion. What about freedom from religion? News flash not everyone shares the same religious views as you and just like you don't want anyone to restrict your right to practice your religion as you please you have no right to restrict someone from living their lives as they see fit because of YOUR religion. Once you realize that we all have to live together despite our difference and that you cannot make laws that restrict the free movements of others because of YOUR religion the world will be a much better place with lower instances of STDs and unwanted pregnancies. Your thoughts.

you can not say that about all conservatives.
not all conservatives are cathlic.

the thing about abortion is.... you know when u have sex,so wrap your stuff up or take a pill,simple as that u shouldnt have to have an abortion if u take precautions.

dont believe the media when they say all republicans agree with or like an issue.

theonedru
06-06-2012, 06:25 PM
Or better yet save the tax payers even more money by providing manditory sex ed in all levels of public as well as private schools and free distribution of contraceptives everywhere. That would in turn reduce unwanted pregnancies and therefore reduce the demand for abortions. Again it wont eliminate the problem but it will put a huge dent in it.

1.How would this save us taxpayers anything, I would see an increased cost due to waste and mismanagement of the free items

2. If you cannot afford the protection don't have sex, its simple and makes sense. Why should the tax payer cough up the dough so someone who cannot even afford a lousy condom can get lucky?

stlcardinalsfan
06-06-2012, 06:33 PM
1.How would this save us taxpayers anything, I would see an increased cost due to waste and mismanagement of the free items

2. If you cannot afford the protection don't have sex, its simple and makes sense. Why should the tax payer cough up the dough so someone who cannot even afford a lousy condom can get lucky?


this!:rant:

JustAlex
06-06-2012, 06:38 PM
A hypothetical scenario

A low income family has just received news that the woman is pregnant.

Option A: The woman realizes she and the family does not have enough money, or time to raise the child and painfully chooses to abort it....the end result ends up saving the family a lot of money and doesn't put another burden on the taxpayers (by means of Welfare, Food stamps, etc.)

Option B: The woman makes the sacrifice to go through the pregnancy.

Within the next upcoming years the family will have to depend on the government and TAXPAYERS to help with welfare, food stamps, and other services.

Despite this "Help" the child will be raised in a poor family and most likely go to a poor, underfunded school.

Later, because of non-sufficient sex ed, the child commits the same mistake his parents did later in life and since he also thinks abortion is wrong, he allows the pregnancy to happen.....thus repeating the cycle.


Meanwhile, the population of the U.S and the world continues to rise ever more, creating a HUGE wealth gap of rich and poor, and decreasing the available resources this planet has to offer.


The funny thing.....is that this isn't a hypothetical situation.....it happens every day in the U.S (Unfortunately to many poor families).

mrveggieman
06-07-2012, 10:41 AM
I only get mildly irritated when you make these statements towards other members you disagree with. I get really irritated when you start putting words in my mouth.

I made my points. They are logical. Both you and Jay ALLOW women to make a CHOICE in some cases. In allowing that choice to be made you are agreeing to KILLING an unborn child to save the mother from any more mental anguish.

It is CRYSTAL CLEAR. It is not an exception, it is a CHOICE. You both are PRO-CHOICE in this instance.

The only people that can truly claim to be PRO-LIFE are those that only choose abortion if the woman's liife is threatened. In those cases they can argue they are PROTECTING a LIFE. In a rape or incest case, a LIFE is NOT being PROTECTED, it is being EXTINGUISHED!

If you need to respond to this, respond to the bolded part and explain why mental anguish is more important than LIFE!

People on here say all types of false things about me and a take it with a grain of salt and smile. Despite what people on here want to say about me I know for a fact that I am 100% anti-abortion and I can look myself in the mirror every day with a clear conscience.

shrewsbury
06-07-2012, 11:20 AM
i'm with veggie on this one!!!!!!

habsheaven
06-07-2012, 11:39 AM
Let me get this straight. 100% anti-abortion = allowing women to CHOOSE in the case of rape.

Keep telling yourselves that.

shrewsbury
06-07-2012, 11:42 AM
it's ok for someone to kill a baby because it is inconvienent? keep telling yourself that

Star_Cards
06-07-2012, 12:00 PM
People on here say all types of false things about me and a take it with a grain of salt and smile. Despite what people on here want to say about me I know for a fact that I am 100% anti-abortion and I can look myself in the mirror every day with a clear conscience.

veggie, I know that you get a bad wrap on here and I don't agree with most of it. we agree on quite a few things and disagree on others and I definitely like to see your views on the P&R forums. However, by definition if anyone has even one reason why they would allow for an abortion they would be pro-choice. And that's not said to be a negative or positive. It's just true by definition. :)

Star_Cards
06-07-2012, 12:06 PM
me and veggieman agree on someone who is forcibly impregnated or who will die should have an option of abortion, how the heck is that prochoice?????

even a teen who does not want a baby is not on our list

it's pro choice because you would be allowing a women who has been raped and impregnated to CHOOSE on whether she would abort or not. I don't see how that is debatable. True it might not be what people think of when they hear pro choice, but it's pro-choice but to a lesser degree. Not everyone who is pro choice has the same exact opinion on when and how that choice should be allowed.

some people are pro choice and might think an abortion should be allowed up until birth. some might think a cut off should be much earlier than that. pro choice is not black and white. there are varying opinions within the realm of pro choice.

habsheaven
06-07-2012, 12:11 PM
it's ok for someone to kill a baby because it is inconvienent? keep telling yourself that

Apparently it is. You have said it numerous times.

pghin08
06-07-2012, 01:12 PM
The tone is getting a bit acrid in here, keep it level-headed.

Star_Cards
06-07-2012, 01:14 PM
^ googling acrid. :)

mrveggieman
06-07-2012, 01:19 PM
The tone is getting a bit acrid in here, keep it level-headed.


I'm cool as a cumcumber. :kiss:

habsheaven
06-07-2012, 01:22 PM
I'm cool as a cumcumber. :kiss:

^googling cumcumber :sign0020:

pghin08
06-07-2012, 01:52 PM
^googling cumcumber :sign0020:
Not sure if I'd do that. :smash:

shrewsbury
06-07-2012, 02:39 PM
i don't see how you can compare teen sex to rape, that is just crazy

a pregnant teen is not a good thing, but hardly even comes close to being raped and forcibly impregnated

habsheaven
06-07-2012, 03:25 PM
i don't see how you can compare teen sex to rape, that is just crazy

a pregnant teen is not a good thing, but hardly even comes close to being raped and forcibly impregnated

Why do you think we are comparing them? Just because both situations surpass OUR arbitrary level of what is acceptable does not mean they are equal to each other. I could ask you the same thing. Why does a rape meet your requirements to make killing an unborn child acceptable?

shrewsbury
06-07-2012, 06:44 PM
habs, i can see where you are coming from, but it doesn't work for me

but i appreciate your comments, you always get me thinking

JustAlex
06-07-2012, 07:17 PM
it's ok for someone to kill a baby because it is inconvienent? keep telling yourself that

Non-viable Fetus =/= Baby

No one is "killing" any babies, but keep telling yourself that they are, to defend your position.

theonedru
06-07-2012, 07:23 PM
Non-viable Fetus =/= Baby

No one is "killing" any babies, but keep telling yourself that they are, to defend your position.

Now now my friend just because that is how you view it and a few select others in a position of power doesn't mean that how everyone does or should have to see it. After all we would not want to be forcing our beliefs or views on others should we.

boba
06-07-2012, 07:25 PM
Non-viable Fetus =/= Baby

No one is "killing" any babies, but keep telling yourself that they are, to defend your position.


It's perfectly viable if you don't kill it.

JustAlex
06-07-2012, 07:28 PM
Now now my friend just because that is how you view it and a few select others in a position of power doesn't mean that how everyone does or should have to see it. After all we would not want to be forcing our beliefs or views on others should we.

OK, Fair enough.

However, I would just like to say the the "few select others" that view it the way I do are Scientists, Biologists, and Doctors.

And I'm pretty sure they know what they're talking about.

mrveggieman
06-08-2012, 09:32 AM
it's perfectly viable if you don't kill it.


+1

Star_Cards
06-08-2012, 09:40 AM
i don't see how you can compare teen sex to rape, that is just crazy

a pregnant teen is not a good thing, but hardly even comes close to being raped and forcibly impregnated

I also am not sure why you think we are comparing the two. As Habs said they are just two of the different situations where he would consider abortion. I am also of the same opinion. It's not a comparison at all.

Star_Cards
06-08-2012, 09:44 AM
Now now my friend just because that is how you view it and a few select others in a position of power doesn't mean that how everyone does or should have to see it. After all we would not want to be forcing our beliefs or views on others should we.

I agree. People should be left to view abortion based on their own. There are vastly ranging views and every situation should be looked at on it's own.

shrewsbury
06-08-2012, 12:17 PM
so then anyone should be able to get one for any reason?

habsheaven
06-08-2012, 12:28 PM
I agree. People should be left to view abortion based on their own. There are vastly ranging views and every situation should be looked at on it's own.

Even though I am pro-choice I still think this needs to be said.

For someone who is pro-life the issue of abortion simply cannot be left alone for everyone to decide for themselves. For them it is an issue of killing. As a society we do not let individuals make personal choices on who can and cannot be killed.

Star_Cards
06-08-2012, 01:03 PM
Even though I am pro-choice I still think this needs to be said.

For someone who is pro-life the issue of abortion simply cannot be left alone for everyone to decide for themselves. For them it is an issue of killing. As a society we do not let individuals make personal choices on who can and cannot be killed.

As of now, everyone has the choice to have an abortion if and when they become pregnant. My statement was assuming current regulation of abortion... which I really do not know as I've never needed to look into it.

Star_Cards
06-08-2012, 01:09 PM
so then anyone should be able to get one for any reason?

My personal belief is that any woman should be able to have an abortion for any reason. To my knowledge that is how it works now. I do feel that there should be a limit as to when a women can have an abortion. That cut off, I don't know. Maybe within the first few months? not sure exactly.

shrewsbury
06-08-2012, 02:31 PM
i can respect your beliefs, but do not agree with them (on this)

tpeichel
06-08-2012, 04:01 PM
OK, Fair enough.

However, I would just like to say the the "few select others" that view it the way I do are Scientists, Biologists, and Doctors.

And I'm pretty sure they know what they're talking about.

I bet every one of those people would say that a fertilized egg is life and is a potential human being as well. Call it what you will, but an abortion ends life and ends the possibility of a human being coming into this world.

Hairylemon
06-10-2012, 12:40 PM
Any of you lot women? Because you sure have alot of opinions about what women should do with their bodies.

tpeichel
06-10-2012, 01:52 PM
Any of you lot women? Because you sure have alot of opinions about what women should do with their bodies.

It seems like the prevailing attitude is that men need to shut their mouths about the decision to abort a baby or not, but if the woman decides to have the baby, the man is sure as hell held responsible and forced to open the check book to pay for child support.

habsheaven
06-10-2012, 03:24 PM
Any of you lot women? Because you sure have alot of opinions about what women should do with their bodies.

Being a woman or not has nothing to do with whether or not someone is qualified to have an opinion on the subject. If I consider the fetus to be worthy of life and therefore consider abortion murder then it becomes MORE than just a simple decision for a woman to decide what she does with her body.

shrewsbury
06-10-2012, 10:31 PM
so habs, no abortions for any reason?

and i know what the answer is going to be, but why doesn't the man ever get considered in any of this?

habsheaven
06-11-2012, 09:20 AM
so habs, no abortions for any reason?

and i know what the answer is going to be, but why doesn't the man ever get considered in any of this?

I already listed the circumstances in which I would allow abortions. IMO, if you are PRO-LIFE, then an abortion can only be allowable if you are saving a life by aborting the fetus.

I think a man should get consideration in these matters but the final decision has to rest with the person carrying the fetus.

Star_Cards
06-11-2012, 09:35 AM
Any of you lot women? Because you sure have alot of opinions about what women should do with their bodies.

in all honestly I think that for every women that becomes pregnant there is also a man that should have a say in whether she has an abortion or not. I'm not sure it's equal in all scenarios, but the man that helped cause the pregnancy shouldn't just be a bystander without any rights.

I think it's perfectly fine for men to have opinions on abortion. Just because they won't even be in the situation to actually have an abortion themselves doesn't mean their opinions aren't valid.

Star_Cards
06-11-2012, 09:37 AM
I already listed the circumstances in which I would allow abortions. IMO, if you are PRO-LIFE, then an abortion can only be allowable if you are saving a life by aborting the fetus.

I think a man should get consideration in these matters but the final decision has to rest with the person carrying the fetus.

The man's right in all of this is an interesting debate as well. I agree that the man should get consideration, but it is the women's ultimate decision.

shrewsbury
06-11-2012, 11:24 AM
IMO, if you are PRO-LIFE, then an abortion can only be allowable if you are saving a life by aborting the fetus.

how is that pro life? i think anyone of us who has kids would die for them, so why not a fetus that will be your kid?

habsheaven
06-11-2012, 11:47 AM
how is that pro life? i think anyone of us who has kids would die for them, so why not a fetus that will be your kid?

It's pro-life because it is an action being performed to save a life. Yes, anyone of us would die for our kids, not our potential kids. Think about it for a second. Are you telling me that you would choose a fetus over the life of your wife or girlfriend? Really?

Star_Cards
06-11-2012, 11:58 AM
It's pro-life because it is an action being performed to save a life. Yes, anyone of us would die for our kids, not our potential kids. Think about it for a second. Are you telling me that you would choose a fetus over the life of your wife or girlfriend? Really?

I would think that most pro-lifers would classify an abortion to save the life of the mother as a legitimate reason for abortion. I suppose if a pregnancy was in it's last trimester where someone would be hesitant, but I know for me I'd reluctantly opt to save the mother in almost every situation.

shrewsbury
06-11-2012, 12:29 PM
but i was labeled as pro choice because i had listed a choice, is this not a choice as well? so there are no true pro lifers?

habsheaven
06-11-2012, 01:14 PM
but i was labeled as pro choice because i had listed a choice, is this not a choice as well? so there are no true pro lifers?

You were labeled as pro-choice because you listed 2 choices that did not choose life. That makes the label of pro-choice a lot more appropriate than the label of pro-life.

A true pro-life individual would ALWAYS choose life over everything else, even potential life.

Star_Cards
06-11-2012, 01:36 PM
but i was labeled as pro choice because i had listed a choice, is this not a choice as well? so there are no true pro lifers?

technically this would still be pro-life because said person would be pro the life of the mother.

I guess you would also be making a choice... heck, I'm confused.

Aikman_TheGreat
06-12-2012, 01:10 AM
Everyone posting on this thread (I've only read 6 pages so far) were at some point "abortable", but obviously none of us were since we are typing on computers or smart phones. All it took was a choice from your very own mother to abort you and you wouldnt be here typing on SCF, or doing anything else you do in life. So thank your mother for making the choice to keep you around.

Star_Cards
06-12-2012, 09:41 AM
I wonder what percentage of pregnant women legitimately even consider abortion. I assume it very very low.

mrveggieman
06-12-2012, 10:07 AM
Everyone posting on this thread (I've only read 6 pages so far) were at some point "abortable", but obviously none of us were since we are typing on computers or smart phones. All it took was a choice from your very own mother to abort you and you wouldnt be here typing on SCF, or doing anything else you do in life. So thank your mother for making the choice to keep you around.


CHURCH!! :love0030::love0030::love0030:

habsheaven
06-12-2012, 11:17 AM
Everyone posting on this thread (I've only read 6 pages so far) were at some point "abortable", but obviously none of us were since we are typing on computers or smart phones. All it took was a choice from your very own mother to abort you and you wouldnt be here typing on SCF, or doing anything else you do in life. So thank your mother for making the choice to keep you around.

I don't quite understand the point to this post. My mother got married with the intention to start a family. She never chose NOT to abort me because I was something she wanted. The thought never crossed her mind. I assume the same can be said for many of us typing on this board. Should I curse my parents for choosing to practice safe sex before I was born and depriving me of older siblings?

Star_Cards
06-12-2012, 01:39 PM
aikman's post give me an idea for a greeting card.

tutall
06-12-2012, 04:18 PM
I tried to read this whole thread but just couldnt do it..

First off on the sex ed issues - I dont want the schools teaching my son about sex ed... That is my job as a parent. It has nothing to do wih religion or ethics or anything except the fact this is a private issue and should be dealt with in the home not at school. He is my son and until his 18th birthday (or through college) I am responsible for him so I should be able to choose on certain topics how it is taught.

For the sex before marriage debate. To each his own. I have several friends right now who are engaged and have both chosen to abstain from sex until they are married. If you cannot control urges that is a YOU thing not a society thing. I love to partake in alcohol. It is something I enjoy going to local brewries and having a drink or 2 or 3 at a ballgame. That said I have NEVER been to the point I could not control myself. I have never been to the point I passed out or was not able to see straight. All it takes is a little self control and if you cannot control your body it is a you thing not a natural thing.

Free Condoms... Honestly they are like 3 bucks for a pack of them. If you are using that as an excuse for unwanted pregnancies grow up. If you cannot afford a 3 dollar item how in the hell do you think you can have a baby which you are basically saying you are ready for by having unprotected sex...

Abortion... I am against it because after you have seen your 12 week old baby inside your wife moving and growing I find it as murder to kill that baby. If it is the womans choice how do you feel about assisted suicide? Why not make heroin and Crack legal if they make someone feel better and they arent hurting anyone else... after all it is their body they are putting it into.

Im sure I will have more as I read through this but wanted to get those down before I forgot them

habsheaven
06-12-2012, 06:01 PM
I tried to read this whole thread but just couldnt do it..

First off on the sex ed issues - I dont want the schools teaching my son about sex ed... That is my job as a parent. It has nothing to do wih religion or ethics or anything except the fact this is a private issue and should be dealt with in the home not at school. He is my son and until his 18th birthday (or through college) I am responsible for him so I should be able to choose on certain topics how it is taught.

For the sex before marriage debate. To each his own. I have several friends right now who are engaged and have both chosen to abstain from sex until they are married. If you cannot control urges that is a YOU thing not a society thing. I love to partake in alcohol. It is something I enjoy going to local brewries and having a drink or 2 or 3 at a ballgame. That said I have NEVER been to the point I could not control myself. I have never been to the point I passed out or was not able to see straight. All it takes is a little self control and if you cannot control your body it is a you thing not a natural thing.

Free Condoms... Honestly they are like 3 bucks for a pack of them. If you are using that as an excuse for unwanted pregnancies grow up. If you cannot afford a 3 dollar item how in the hell do you think you can have a baby which you are basically saying you are ready for by having unprotected sex...

Abortion... I am against it because after you have seen your 12 week old baby inside your wife moving and growing I find it as murder to kill that baby. If it is the womans choice how do you feel about assisted suicide? Why not make heroin and Crack legal if they make someone feel better and they arent hurting anyone else... after all it is their body they are putting it into.

Im sure I will have more as I read through this but wanted to get those down before I forgot them

All good points. I am curious as to your position on abortion when it involves a victim of rape.

pghin08
06-12-2012, 06:28 PM
I tried to read this whole thread but just couldnt do it..

First off on the sex ed issues - I dont want the schools teaching my son about sex ed... That is my job as a parent. It has nothing to do wih religion or ethics or anything except the fact this is a private issue and should be dealt with in the home not at school. He is my son and until his 18th birthday (or through college) I am responsible for him so I should be able to choose on certain topics how it is taught.

For the sex before marriage debate. To each his own. I have several friends right now who are engaged and have both chosen to abstain from sex until they are married. If you cannot control urges that is a YOU thing not a society thing. I love to partake in alcohol. It is something I enjoy going to local brewries and having a drink or 2 or 3 at a ballgame. That said I have NEVER been to the point I could not control myself. I have never been to the point I passed out or was not able to see straight. All it takes is a little self control and if you cannot control your body it is a you thing not a natural thing.

Free Condoms... Honestly they are like 3 bucks for a pack of them. If you are using that as an excuse for unwanted pregnancies grow up. If you cannot afford a 3 dollar item how in the hell do you think you can have a baby which you are basically saying you are ready for by having unprotected sex...

Abortion... I am against it because after you have seen your 12 week old baby inside your wife moving and growing I find it as murder to kill that baby. If it is the womans choice how do you feel about assisted suicide? Why not make heroin and Crack legal if they make someone feel better and they arent hurting anyone else... after all it is their body they are putting it into.

Im sure I will have more as I read through this but wanted to get those down before I forgot them

Couple questions:

1. What if the child doesn't have a good parent such as yourself to teach them these things?

2. I don't know what condoms you're buying, but they're certainly not $3 a pack. It's not going to break the bank, but it does add up for sexually active people.


Totally agree on the sex before marriage thing. I'm like you, I have happy friends that do it, and I have happy friends that abstain from it until after they're married. To each his/her own.

tutall
06-12-2012, 06:58 PM
Couple questions:

1. What if the child doesn't have a good parent such as yourself to teach them these things?

2. I don't know what condoms you're buying, but they're certainly not $3 a pack. It's not going to break the bank, but it does add up for sexually active people.


Totally agree on the sex before marriage thing. I'm like you, I have happy friends that do it, and I have happy friends that abstain from it until after they're married. To each his/her own.

1 - Great point... But why should I and my child have to put up with it because of the incompetance of others? Honestly I dont have an answer for this...

2 - I guess I am out of the loop... When I was in high school though you could get a little 3 pack for 3-4 bucks though.... That should do for at least one night right?

tutall
06-12-2012, 07:01 PM
All good points. I am curious as to your position on abortion when it involves a victim of rape.

Honestly I am on the fence about it... On one hand I can certainly see the point of not wanting to have the baby but on the other hand I do believe it is still a life and to terminate the pregnancy I still would feel is ending a life.

Aikman_TheGreat
06-13-2012, 02:31 AM
I don't quite understand the point to this post. My mother got married with the intention to start a family. She never chose NOT to abort me because I was something she wanted. The thought never crossed her mind. I assume the same can be said for many of us typing on this board. Should I curse my parents for choosing to practice safe sex before I was born and depriving me of older siblings?

Even if the other choice was never in consideration, keeping you was still a choice.

Aikman_TheGreat
06-13-2012, 02:32 AM
aikman's post give me an idea for a greeting card.

HAHAHA! I dont know if I'm thinking what you are, but I have an idea too.

habsheaven
06-13-2012, 09:13 AM
Even if the other choice was never in consideration, keeping you was still a choice.

Technically yes, it is still a choice. Practically, it really isn't. I have never considered taking my own life. Does that mean that I make a choice to live everyday? No, not at all. If the "chooser" doesn't consider one option as a choice than they aren't really making a choice.

TheNati97
06-15-2012, 08:29 AM
i dont have the patience to read through all 22 pages to see if this was talked about but what do you all think of the morning after pill?

Star_Cards
06-15-2012, 09:09 AM
i dont have the patience to read through all 22 pages to see if this was talked about but what do you all think of the morning after pill?

good question and it hasn't been discussed before. I'm pro choice so I have no issue with the morning after pill. Will be interesting to see other takes on that.

mrveggieman
06-15-2012, 10:04 AM
i dont have the patience to read through all 22 pages to see if this was talked about but what do you all think of the morning after pill?


From what I know about the morning after pill it stops conception after the fact so it is technically not an abortion. I am correct for thinking so? If it is then I am ok with that. If it somehow causes some type of abortion like action then I am against it.

TheNati97
06-15-2012, 10:14 AM
there are different types some of the pills perform what is basically a chemical abortion after the egg is fertilized and there are others which i was talking about originally that i can best explain by saying it messes with the fertilization process.

Star_Cards
06-15-2012, 10:38 AM
yeah, I was pretty sure it was a chemical abortion after fertilization or during.

Aikman_TheGreat
06-17-2012, 05:36 AM
Technically yes, it is still a choice. Practically, it really isn't. I have never considered taking my own life. Does that mean that I make a choice to live everyday? No, not at all. If the "chooser" doesn't consider one option as a choice than they aren't really making a choice.

You can always pull the trigger, take the pills, drive into on-coming traffic. Life is a choice, just because you DONT think about taking your own life doesnt mean that living isn't a choice.

habsheaven
06-17-2012, 08:05 AM
You can always pull the trigger, take the pills, drive into on-coming traffic. Life is a choice, just because you DONT think about taking your own life doesnt mean that living isn't a choice.

As I said, a REAL choice involves the chooser believing they have more than one option. If you can't grasp that concept I am not going to keep trying to explain it.

pghin08
06-18-2012, 09:31 AM
Alright guys, after 23 pages, we've finally started going in circles here. This is headed to the archives.