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JustAlex
06-08-2012, 11:01 PM
So, I get this question a lot in various forums when I debate Christians and other religious people.

At the present moment, I am an Agnostic Atheist.

This means that I don't believe in God, however, I don't really know if there is a God.


So what would it take to believe in god?

Well, for one thing, if the entire world all believed in the same religion with the same exact belief system, this would at the very least help the argument.

In the end, I would have to see undeniable physical evidence of god.

For example, if the heavens opened up and god showed himself or talked to all of us humans, that would be a great start.


So, for any Atheist, Agnostic, or non-believer, what would it take for YOU to believe in god?

1of23
06-08-2012, 11:37 PM
Proof.

I have had conversations with many die hard Christians to get them to try to persuade me to believe ,but all they could ever really say was to "have faith". That doesn't really work for me though because just as easy as a kid had "faith" there was a Santa is how easy I could have "faith" there is a god

ensbergcollector
06-09-2012, 12:04 AM
So, I get this question a lot in various forums when I debate Christians and other religious people.

At the present moment, I am an Agnostic Atheist.

This means that I don't believe in God, however, I don't really know if there is a God.


So what would it take to believe in god?

Well, for one thing, if the entire world all believed in the same religion with the same exact belief system, this would at the very least help the argument.

In the end, I would have to see undeniable physical evidence of god.

For example, if the heavens opened up and god showed himself or talked to all of us humans, that would be a great start.


So, for any Atheist, Agnostic, or non-believer, what would it take for YOU to believe in god?

really man? if the heavens opened up, God showed himself and spoke to all humanity that would be a good "start"? not sure if you didn't mean it the way I took it, but if you did, come on man.

i get that most atheists answer to the question is proof.

PDawson21
06-09-2012, 12:11 AM
I could use the wind example. The example has some flaws but I think you will get my drift. I am a Christian. Studying Biblical Counseling at the moment.

You can't see wind. But you know its there. Just because you can't see does it mean it doesn't exist? Of course wind exists even though you can't see. Just because you can't see God, does that mean he can't exist? Absolutely not. He surely can.

I think its interesting it would take that much to make you believe (about the heavens opening up)

JustAlex
06-09-2012, 12:20 AM
really man? if the heavens opened up, God showed himself and spoke to all humanity that would be a good "start"? not sure if you didn't mean it the way I took it, but if you did, come on man.

Well, why doesn't god do that?

Why doesn't he show up or put up a sign in the heavens?

For example, rearrange the stars to say ("I am god, and I am REAL").

DO SOMETHING!


I could use the wind example. The example has some flaws but I think you will get my drift. I am a Christian. Studying Biblical Counseling at the moment.

My parents told me that example when I was young.

"You can't see the wind but you can feel it"

"You can't see God, but you can feel him"


Well, truth be told....No, I can't feel him.

I'm not mocking or anything like that, I honestly can't feel god, and I NEVER felt him when I was a christian.

I always prayed, but I don't think I ever got any answers or visions or anything.

PDawson21
06-09-2012, 12:28 AM
I never said anything about feeling. I don't believe in visions, etc etc. Can they happen, yes, God isn't limited in any way. Do I think he would speak that way? Probably not.

Personally, not a charismatic, I think it should be Fact--Faith--Emotions.(in that order) Emotions(feeling) is the most dangerous.

1of23
06-09-2012, 12:32 AM
I could use the wind example. The example has some flaws but I think you will get my drift. I am a Christian. Studying Biblical Counseling at the moment.

You can't see wind. But you know its there. Just because you can't see does it mean it doesn't exist? Of course wind exists even though you can't see. Just because you can't see God, does that mean he can't exist? Absolutely not. He surely can.

I think its interesting it would take that much to make you believe (about the heavens opening up)

I cant see the wind but I know its there because I can feel it and have scientific proof on what made it .

With god you can think he is there but you have no real way of knowing for sure.

JustAlex
06-09-2012, 12:37 AM
I never said anything about feeling. I don't believe in visions, etc etc. Can they happen, yes, God isn't limited in any way. Do I think he would speak that way? Probably not.

Oh sorry...I didn't mean to imply that's what you thought.

I was just sharing what my parents told me when I was young.



It's funny, if I had been on this website just 3 or 4 years ago, I would be defending god as well.

It was actually VERY HARD to lose my faith....it didn't happen overnight, it took YEARS for me to come to the realization that I really didn't believe in god.

I'll be honest, I never had a big problem with the church I went or my pastor or anything like that.

But I just had so many questions that no one could answer.

One day, I was on youtube and I stumbled upon various videos by a member named "Thunderf00t", many of his videos (at the time) were about evolution and why creationists were wrong.

I later started researching on evolution, abiogenesis, and various other Naturalistic explanations to our world and universe.


In the end, I found Science had much better answers than what I believed.....however, I want to make sure to say, that I don't treat science as my religion.

I don't place my faith in it, and I know that it can change, also I won't believe anything it says unless I see evidence.

shrewsbury
06-09-2012, 10:52 AM
pdawson, great post!

alex, god is about free will, he would never do that

1of23 i am unsure of who you spoke to, but faith comes after you have researched and came to your own conclusions, i would not expect you to just have faith to believe, to me it all makes logical sense, just like many hypothesis in science

Wickabee
06-09-2012, 11:03 AM
Wind isn't really a "thing" it's just moving air. We can refer to it as a "thing" but it's really not, it's more of an explanation of the effect of other things.

The same argument can be made about "God". That it's just a word describing other things more easily. Things such as life, perceived miracles, etc. Not saying that's how I personally see it, but there it is.

duane1969
06-09-2012, 12:54 PM
So, I get this question a lot in various forums when I debate Christians and other religious people.

At the present moment, I am an Agnostic Atheist.

This means that I don't believe in God, however, I don't really know if there is a God.


So what would it take to believe in god?

Well, for one thing, if the entire world all believed in the same religion with the same exact belief system, this would at the very least help the argument.

In the end, I would have to see undeniable physical evidence of god.

For example, if the heavens opened up and god showed himself or talked to all of us humans, that would be a great start.


So, for any Atheist, Agnostic, or non-believer, what would it take for YOU to believe in god?

Agnostic Atheist is an oxymoronic term.

Agnostics (like me) believe that there is a higher power or deity but that we can not or do not know who that being is.

Atheist reject the existance of a deity. The word "atheos" is the root origin of the word atheist and means "without God".

You can not be both.

JustAlex
06-09-2012, 06:06 PM
Agnostic Atheist is an oxymoronic term.

Agnostics (like me) believe that there is a higher power or deity but that we can not or do not know who that being is.

Atheist reject the existance of a deity. The word "atheos" is the root origin of the word atheist and means "without God".

You can not be both.

I don't believe you're agnostic...

Most of your comments defend Christianity and God, a true agnostic stays neutral on questions about god and religion.


Furthermore, you are WRONG!!!!

Agnostic Atheist is very much a real position.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism

^When someone asks me: Do you believe in God? I answer.....NO!

However, when someone asks me: Do you think there is a possibility of God? I answer.....YES!

This is what it means to be Agnostic Atheist, the terms are NOT Mutually Exclusive!


You can read more about Atheists and Agnostics here: http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Atheist_vs._agnostic

TheTGB
06-09-2012, 07:15 PM
I hate the wind argument and it's been said to me several times.

It's like comparing apples to oranges. There is proof that wind exists because it's the effect of differing pressures in the atmosphere. That is scientific evidence.

I've still yet to see scientific evidence for any God.

Now this is not part of whether or not I actually believe in a God, it's more of a "don't use this example because it's not relevant" type statement.

shrewsbury
06-09-2012, 09:04 PM
just alex, so you think their could be a god? then what about evolution?

or perhaps you think it is more of a generic god that created the universe and what happens from there he doesn't play a role in?

so you are anti-christian, but not anti-god?

i am confused more than ever about your opinions

hawk2618
06-09-2012, 09:18 PM
[quote=JustAlex;11627411]I don't believe you're agnostic...

^When someone asks me: Do you believe in God? I answer.....NO!

However, when someone asks me: Do you think there is a possibility of God? I answer.....YES!

I'm not sure I quite understand these 2 statements.The first one,you say you absolutely DON"T believe in God,but yet the second one,you say there is a possiblitiy of a God.In other words,you believe there is a possiblility there is a God.Wouldn't that mean you believe? Whether its in God himself or a possibility of him.Seems to be the same to me.

JustAlex
06-09-2012, 09:21 PM
just alex, so you think their could be a god? then what about evolution?

or perhaps you think it is more of a generic god that created the universe and what happens from there he doesn't play a role in?

so you are anti-christian, but not anti-god?

i am confused more than ever about your opinions

Ok, I'll try my best to respond to your questions.

#1 Yes, I do think there is a chance of a God, however at the present time there is no evidence for one, thus I don't believe in god, but that doesn't mean I'm 100% sure there isn't one.

#2 Even if a god exists, there is undeniable evidence of Evolution, so if a god does exists, that doesn't mean evolution is false.

#3 Why does god need to create the universe? If there is a god, that doesn't necessarily mean he created the universe.

#4 I am anti-christianity, but I'm also anti-ALL religion.

If there is a god, he doesn't need to be worshiped, he should be above that.

He also shouldn't have to be so petty.


My position is very simple, I believe ALL religion is bad and incorrect.

I don't really know if there is a god, but with the information we know right now, I don't believe in any gods.



Now, let me ask YOU some questions:

#1 Do you believe in Allah? If your answer is no....why not?

#2 Do you think you would be a christian if your parents/guardians would not have told you about it?

#3 Have you ever REALLY considered all the fallacies that are in the bible?

JustAlex
06-09-2012, 09:32 PM
I'm not sure I quite understand these 2 statements.The first one,you say you absolutely DON"T believe in God,but yet the second one,you say there is a possiblitiy of a God.In other words,you believe there is a possiblility there is a God.Wouldn't that mean you believe? Whether its in God himself or a possibility of him.Seems to be the same to me.

Ok, let's take god out and let's put in Bigfoot.

Do you believe in Bigfoot?......NO!

Do you believe there is a possibility Bigfoot might exists.....YES!


If the right evidence came in or we actually catch Bigfoot, then YES, I would believe in Bigfoot.


However, at the present time there is no good evidence to believe in bigfoot, therefore......I don't believe in Bigfoot.

If you still don't understand, here you go:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NZ5CusyeEMw/Tl29NOMfTfI/AAAAAAAAB40/I-86p8lRlQM/s1600/agnostic-diagram11.png

shrewsbury
06-09-2012, 10:39 PM
just alex, good and fair questions

and also tricky to answer in a short post, but i will try

#1 Do you believe in Allah? If your answer is no....why not?

well allah is actually the god of the OT, so yes, since he and jesus are sort of the same god


#2 Do you think you would be a christian if your parents/guardians would not have told you about it?

this is a long story, and as a child my parents did not attend church. i would sometimes go with friends, one was a catholic church with a mexican family and the other i believe was lutheran with my aunt and cousins. i generically believed in god, but did not give it much thought nor gave much thought to the conflict of science and god.

as a teen things change in a few ways. but not going into all that. my best friend's mom was very christian and played a big role in my life, through her and a few others i studied the bible and established my faith. a few years later i was mature enough to really start to study other religions, various sects of christianity, and science. it was after a few years i came to the conclusion that i was christian and everything seemed to fit for me, but i am still changing in my understanding in what all that means.

#3 Have you ever REALLY considered all the fallacies that are in the bible?

yes, for more years than you would believe, i am now 43 years old, so its been a while.

my biggest issue with the bible is considering source, transcription, and translation. with the dead sea scrolls we see he OT in an early period, but we do not see these works existing anywhere close to how old they really are. this is not surprising for many works historians consider authentic do not exist within hundreds of years of the original works.

so my focus is really on the NT. not cherry picking, but being a christian i try to focus on the teachings of jesus. but even in the NT we are limited by what men determined to be fit for us to read. so searching outside of it can be tricky because of the bad juju associated with these works.

theonedru
06-09-2012, 11:34 PM
Anyone ever consider the concept of more than 1 God/paths to heaven?

habsheaven
06-09-2012, 11:53 PM
Ok, I'll try my best to respond to your questions.

#1 Yes, I do think there is a chance of a God, however at the present time there is no evidence for one, thus I don't believe in god, but that doesn't mean I'm 100% sure there isn't one.

#2 Even if a god exists, there is undeniable evidence of Evolution, so if a god does exists, that doesn't mean evolution is false.

#3 Why does god need to create the universe? If there is a god, that doesn't necessarily mean he created the universe.

#4 I am anti-christianity, but I'm also anti-ALL religion.

If there is a god, he doesn't need to be worshiped, he should be above that.

He also shouldn't have to be so petty.


My position is very simple, I believe ALL religion is bad and incorrect.

I don't really know if there is a god, but with the information we know right now, I don't believe in any gods.



This describes my current position on religion and God.

Wickabee
06-10-2012, 12:16 AM
I love seeing someone say what God "should" be, as if (were he real) we have the right to judge God.

JustAlex
06-10-2012, 12:17 AM
just alex, good and fair questions

and also tricky to answer in a short post, but i will try

#1 Do you believe in Allah? If your answer is no....why not?

well allah is actually the god of the OT, so yes, since he and jesus are sort of the same god


#2 Do you think you would be a christian if your parents/guardians would not have told you about it?

this is a long story, and as a child my parents did not attend church. i would sometimes go with friends, one was a catholic church with a mexican family and the other i believe was lutheran with my aunt and cousins. i generically believed in god, but did not give it much thought nor gave much thought to the conflict of science and god.

as a teen things change in a few ways. but not going into all that. my best friend's mom was very christian and played a big role in my life, through her and a few others i studied the bible and established my faith. a few years later i was mature enough to really start to study other religions, various sects of christianity, and science. it was after a few years i came to the conclusion that i was christian and everything seemed to fit for me, but i am still changing in my understanding in what all that means.

#3 Have you ever REALLY considered all the fallacies that are in the bible?

yes, for more years than you would believe, i am now 43 years old, so its been a while.

my biggest issue with the bible is considering source, transcription, and translation. with the dead sea scrolls we see he OT in an early period, but we do not see these works existing anywhere close to how old they really are. this is not surprising for many works historians consider authentic do not exist within hundreds of years of the original works.

so my focus is really on the NT. not cherry picking, but being a christian i try to focus on the teachings of jesus. but even in the NT we are limited by what men determined to be fit for us to read. so searching outside of it can be tricky because of the bad juju associated with these works.

Your responses are very well and I really don't have any counter arguments for them.

I will only say that I'm sure you don't believe in other gods such as Zeus, Krishna, Thor, etc.

I would later ask you why you don't believe in these gods, at this point I'm sure you would say "Because there is no evidence for them" or "Because they are purely fictional/mythological".

Well, that's the way I feel about the god of the bible.

duane1969
06-14-2012, 08:50 PM
I don't believe you're agnostic...

Most of your comments defend Christianity and God, a true agnostic stays neutral on questions about god and religion.


Furthermore, you are WRONG!!!!

Agnostic Atheist is very much a real position.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism

^When someone asks me: Do you believe in God? I answer.....NO!

However, when someone asks me: Do you think there is a possibility of God? I answer.....YES!

This is what it means to be Agnostic Atheist, the terms are NOT Mutually Exclusive!


You can read more about Atheists and Agnostics here: http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Atheist_vs._agnostic

I do not defend Christianity, I answer questions. When I see someone make some baseless, factless statement about Christianity that shows they clearly do not know what they are talking about then I respond and point out their flaws, that is not defending.

I don't care what Wikipedia says. The terms Agnostic and Athiest are contradictory. If you want to go around telling people that you are an athiest that believes there is a god then go for it but don't say I didn't warn you about the funny looks you will get. You can not be both. Next thing I know you are going to tell me that you just finished a fictional non-fiction book and that the two terms are not exclusive.

JustAlex
06-14-2012, 09:15 PM
I do not defend Christianity, I answer questions. When I see someone make some baseless, factless statement about Christianity that shows they clearly do not know what they are talking about then I respond and point out their flaws, that is not defending.
OK fine, I'll take your word on it.


I don't care what Wikipedia says. The terms Agnostic and Athiest are contradictory. If you want to go around telling people that you are an athiest that believes there is a god then go for it but don't say I didn't warn you about the funny looks you will get. You can not be both. Next thing I know you are going to tell me that you just finished a fictional non-fiction book and that the two terms are not exclusive.

No, they are not!

And if you don't want to believe wikipedia, fine....but you must understand that both words are answers to two different questions.


I'm going to ask you right now.......Do YOU believe in god?

And don't tell me "I don't know", that is NOT an answer!

If I ask you do you believe in leprechauns, are you going to respond with "I don't know"?

This is a YES or NO answer it's that simple, if it's "I don't know" than you're lying to yourself, and the real answer is NO.

There is no fence sitting!

Second question.....Do you believe there is a possibility god might exist?


So there you go, my first answer is NO (Atheism), my second answer is YES (agnosticism).

Wickabee
06-14-2012, 09:28 PM
There is no fence sitting!

I agreed with you until this load. Now, I don't know if there's a God. I think there is, but I can't say I outright believe there is. Believe is a LOT stronger than think.

So yeah, if you asked if I believe in God, the CLOSEST to a yes/no answer I could honestly give is, "I think I believe in a God, but I don't know."

And no amount of leprechauns will change that.

JustAlex
06-14-2012, 09:33 PM
So yeah, if you asked if I believe in God, the CLOSEST to a yes/no answer I could honestly give is, "I think I believe in a God, but I don't know."
OK, very nice.

Then you are an Agnostic Theist.

You are NOT sure if there really is a god, but for the moment are are choosing to believe there IS a god.

In the end you DID respond the question, and your answer is yes.

Wickabee
06-14-2012, 09:37 PM
Well, no I didn't, I said that's the closest I could come while still remaining honest. THe most honest I could be is, "I don't know what I believe."

Wickabee
06-14-2012, 09:38 PM
I guess my point is I understand what you're saying about gnostics/atheist/et al, but "Undecided" is still a valid answer.

JustAlex
06-14-2012, 10:14 PM
I guess my point is I understand what you're saying about gnostics/atheist/et al, but "Undecided" is still a valid answer.

It's a tough call really.

There are some questions where it MUST be a yes or no.

Is your name Alex?.....Yes

Are you male?.......Yes

and so on....

If we go into beliefs....then it's a little tricky.

Do you believe you were born in the U.S.....YES

Do you believe you are a good person........YES

Are you sure you're a good person......I don't know, but I think I AM a good person.


So in the question of whether or not I'm a good person I would say YES I'm a good person, but I'm not 100% sure I really am good since being "good" can be subjective.

Wickabee
06-14-2012, 10:23 PM
It's a tough call really.

There are some questions where it MUST be a yes or no.

Is your name Alex?.....Yes

Are you male?.......Yes

and so on....

If we go into beliefs....then it's a little tricky.

Do you believe you were born in the U.S.....YES

Do you believe you are a good person........YES

Are you sure you're a good person......I don't know, but I think I AM a good person.


So in the question of whether or not I'm a good person I would say YES I'm a good person, but I'm not 100% sure I really am good since being "good" can be subjective.
The problem I have with your examples is they're completely different.

Do I believe I was born in Canada? Absolutely. I even have a certificate to prove it (not to mention my parents' eyewitness testimony. Belief just doesn't come into play on that one, so yes it's an absolute.

Do I believe I'm a good person? Yes. Do I know I'm a good person? Yes...by my definition. I'm sure there's aspects of my life that would give someone a different opinion. But I can definitively say that by my definition, which is the only one I trust, yes I am a good person, because, by that definition, I know for a fact I follow the definition. I have personal experience in that area.

As for God? Not a clue. I can't say he exists because I've never experienced him. I can't say he doesn't because lack of proof does not equate lack of being. Some question are absolutely yes or no, as were you born in X. What do I believe? I believe...



I'm not sure.

habsheaven
06-14-2012, 10:28 PM
The problem I have with your examples is they're completely different.

Do I believe I was born in Canada? Absolutely. I even have a certificate to prove it (not to mention my parents' eyewitness testimony. Belief just doesn't come into play on that one, so yes it's an absolute.

Do I believe I'm a good person? Yes. Do I know I'm a good person? Yes...by my definition. I'm sure there's aspects of my life that would give someone a different opinion. But I can definitively say that by my definition, which is the only one I trust, yes I am a good person, because, by that definition, I know for a fact I follow the definition. I have personal experience in that area.

As for God? Not a clue. I can't say he exists because I've never experienced him. I can't say he doesn't because lack of proof does not equate lack of being. Some question are absolutely yes or no, as were you born in X. What do I believe? I believe...



I'm not sure.

Aren't you and Alex saying the same thing with regard to your belief in God? Neither of you are certain. You call it undecided, Alex says No based on the lack of evidence. You are both still open to the possibility.

Wickabee
06-14-2012, 10:30 PM
Aren't you and Alex saying the same thing with regard to your belief in God? Neither of you are certain. You call it undecided, Alex says No based on the lack of evidence. You are both still open to the possibility.I suppose, but ultimately I disagree with the "no". If you still believe there could be a God, how can you say definitively that you do not believe in a God.

habsheaven
06-14-2012, 10:35 PM
I suppose, but ultimately I disagree with the "no". If you still believe there could be a God, how can you say definitively that you do not believe in a God.

That's easy to say. I say "No", because at this particular point in time I have no evidence to base that belief on. It leaves open the possibility to believe at a later point in time if evidence presents itself.

JustAlex
06-14-2012, 11:36 PM
That's easy to say. I say "No", because at this particular point in time I have no evidence to base that belief on. It leaves open the possibility to believe at a later point in time if evidence presents itself.

Yeah, this would be my response as well.

duane1969
06-15-2012, 12:39 AM
OK fine, I'll take your word on it.



No, they are not!

And if you don't want to believe wikipedia, fine....but you must understand that both words are answers to two different questions.


I'm going to ask you right now.......Do YOU believe in god?

And don't tell me "I don't know", that is NOT an answer!

If I ask you do you believe in leprechauns, are you going to respond with "I don't know"?

This is a YES or NO answer it's that simple, if it's "I don't know" than you're lying to yourself, and the real answer is NO.

There is no fence sitting!

Second question.....Do you believe there is a possibility god might exist?


So there you go, my first answer is NO (Atheism), my second answer is YES (agnosticism).

Problem #1, agnosticism is not the belief that there might be a god but you aren't sure, it is non-committal to the belief or disbeleif in a god.

Like I said, if you want to tell people that you are an atheist that believes in the existence of a god/deity then go right ahead. Just don't expect people who actually know the difference to take you seriously.

Atheist: one who believes that there is no deity http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheist
Agnostic: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly: one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agnostic

You can not be an atheist (committed to beleiving that there is no god) and an agnostic (not committed to the beleif or disbelief that there is a god). You are contradicting yourself.

I am not going to argue the point any further. If you think that it is possible to believe that there is no deity and beleive that there might be a deity at the same time, so be it.

duane1969
06-15-2012, 12:43 AM
That's easy to say. I say "No", because at this particular point in time I have no evidence to base that belief on. It leaves open the possibility to believe at a later point in time if evidence presents itself.

Someone who you trust beyond all else points a gun at you and promises you that it isn't loaded. He then pulls the trigger. Do you flinch? If you do then you never truly believed that it wasn't loaded.

An atheist can not proclaim to not believe in the existence of a god but leave the option open that there might be. If you even slightly believe that there might be a god then you have flinched.

JustAlex
06-15-2012, 01:00 AM
Problem #1, agnosticism is not the belief that there might be a god but you aren't sure, it is non-committal to the belief or disbeleif in a god.

Ok, I'll agree to that definition...

Like I said, if you want to tell people that you are an atheist that believes in the existence of a god/deity then go right ahead. Just don't expect people who actually know the difference to take you seriously.

But that's not what I'm saying.....I'm saying I don't believe in god, however at the present moment I'm not 100% positive in this assertion. In other words, I'm NOT committing myself to being an atheist........as soon as I get sufficient evidence that God Exists, I'll go back to being a theist.

Atheist: one who believes that there is no deity http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheist
Agnostic: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly: one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agnostic

You can not be an atheist (committed to beleiving that there is no god) and an agnostic (not committed to the beleif or disbelief that there is a god). You are contradicting yourself.

OK, so what I'm saying is that I am NOT committed to being an atheist.

Does that make sense?.....it's a little weird, but that's my stance.


I am not going to argue the point any further. If you think that it is possible to believe that there is no deity and beleive that there might be a deity at the same time, so be it.

OK, fair enough, I appreciate your response and this will be my final response on this topic.

BTW, if you really are agnostic, then I'm happy you are at least skeptical enough to question the existence of god.

Believe it or not, as much as we might argue and disagree I like debating with you and most of the other members on this site, it's a good way to learn more on how people think about these tough issues.


Responses in bold.

habsheaven
06-15-2012, 08:23 AM
Someone who you trust beyond all else points a gun at you and promises you that it isn't loaded. He then pulls the trigger. Do you flinch? If you do then you never truly believed that it wasn't loaded.

An atheist can not proclaim to not believe in the existence of a god but leave the option open that there might be. If you even slightly believe that there might be a god then you have flinched.

You're analogy is flawed. When did I claim that I believed the gun wasn't loaded? I flinched because, although I trust my friend, friend's still make mistakes.

No they can't, IF you are referring to the same moment in time. If however, you are referring to the present and the future in your proclamation it makes perfect sense.

Being open to change a belief in the future does not disqualify your current belief. For example, I do not believe in ghosts 100%. If you ask me, "Would you believe in ghosts if you saw one?" I am allowed to say yes without it affecting my current disbelief.

mrveggieman
06-15-2012, 09:44 AM
How do we know that God/Allah/Jehova/Zeus/Thor/Nike/etc are not one in the same? Different nations could have had different stories but they were all referring to the same deity. If you read any holy 50-75% or more is the exact same thing from book to book. You know it trips me out when someone who believes in religion a says that everything in the holy book of religion b is completely false (without even reading the holy book of religion b) when most of what the holy books in both religion a and religion b say the exact same thing. Is that person also saying that their own religion is completely false?

Star_Cards
06-15-2012, 10:33 AM
An atheist can not proclaim to not believe in the existence of a god but leave the option open that there might be. If you even slightly believe that there might be a god then you have flinched.

My atheist belief is based off of my experiences to this date. It's impossible to know what findings will be out there in the future. I'm rather certain that there will never be concrete evidence brought forth that would prove that there is a god during my lifetime. However, if said evidence did come forward that evidence would certainly effect my experiences and opinions. Also, in that case of evidence proving god, accepting that god really does exist is completely different than accepting his teachings.

mrveggieman
06-15-2012, 10:39 AM
My atheist belief is based off of my experiences to this date. It's impossible to know what findings will be out there in the future. I'm rather certain that there will never be concrete evidence brought forth that would prove that there is a god during my lifetime. However, if said evidence did come forward that evidence would certainly effect my experiences and opinions. Also, in that case of evidence proving god, accepting that god really does exist is completely different than accepting his teachings.


If God does prove to you that he does indeed exsits why would you not accept his teachings?

Kosmo kards
06-15-2012, 02:06 PM
I've never understood why people can so easily believe in god. The bible was written well over 1800 years ago, christians don't seem to understand how long ago that was. I mean 20 years feels like a really long time, now multiply that by 100.

One of my main issues is the whole concept of being saved. God loves me so much, but if I do not believe a story that happened 2000 years ago, I will be sent into a fiery pit for all eternity. We're not talking about losing your xbox privileges for two weeks, we are talking about burning in fire for all eternity, for being unsure of an event that happened two thousand years ago. That just doesn't make sence to me and I personally have a really tough time with that. You wouldn't give someone the chair for stealing a Milky Way. I wouldn't send anyone into a fiery pit excluding a Hitler or a Dahmer or Bundy or a monster like that, let alone some I love.

Now at the end of the day there are two main points. One, it doesn't cost anything to believe in god and that jesus is our savior and that is important to know. On the filp side you have to actually believe that the events in the Bible are all true and I think that is really tough for someone like myself.

Just my two cents.