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pwaldo
06-10-2012, 05:36 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2157158/NYC-principal-bans-God-Bless-America-graduation-avoid-upsetting-cultural-sensitivities.html


A New York principle has sparked fury among parents, students and teachers after banning a patriotic song from being sung at graduation.

Kindergartners at PS 90, the Edna Cohen School in Coney Island will not be allowed to sing ‘God Bless the USA’ at their moving-up ceremony because principle Greta Hawkins has decided it is inappropriate.

The lyrics, she says could ‘offend other cultures’ and are ‘too grown-up’ for five-year-olds.

Controversially, Hawkins is allowing alternatives including ‘Baby’ by Justin Bieber.

In past years the kids would sing the song with pride at the end of their June 20 commencement, waving tiny American flags, all dressed up for the occasion.

But Hawkins has pulled the plug on their patriotism, much to the annoyance of many parents.

'A lot of people fought to move to America to live freely, so that song should be sung with a whole lot of pride,' mom Luz Lozada told the New York Post.

It is not the first time that Hawkins, a Jehovas Witness, has tried to stamp down on the school's patriotic rituals.

A few years ago she tried to end the tradition of students reciting the Pledge of Allegiance and singing ‘America the Beautiful’.

Staff objected and she was forced to back down but it has been noted that she does not herself recite the pledge because of her religious beliefs.

She has in the past been called a tyrant and bully by staffers and was reprimanded in 2010 by the Department of Education after complaints arose that she had called the school racist.

‘I’m black. Your previous principal was white and Jewish. More of us are coming,’ she is alleged to have said.

stlcardinalsfan
06-10-2012, 06:37 PM
well jehovas witness's are freaking nuts.

habsheaven
06-10-2012, 06:40 PM
well jehovas witness's are freaking nuts.

kinda like the Christians eh?

JustAlex
06-10-2012, 06:48 PM
kinda like the Christians eh?

LOL!


BTW, I applaud this Principal, regardless of her own beliefs, I believe EVERY single public school, office, building should be 100% religion free.

It is NOT fair to sing "God bless the USA", fully knowing there are people that don't believe in god or might believe in OTHER gods.


This is why we have separation of church and state.....NO RELIGION in ANY public building...PERIOD!

JustAlex
06-10-2012, 06:56 PM
BTW....if anyone cares to know....just look at the "Classy" Comments on this article left by people who oppose the Principal's decision (No doubt religious persons):


"The principal should be arrested for treason."

"If you have a problem with God Bless America, then GET THE **** OUT OF AMERICA!!

"She should be roundly ashamed of herself"

"I just sent the school an email expressing my thought of this un American Principal. If you are sick of this garbage, do the same!!!"

"Fire her. She is not fit to make decisions about teaching our children in America. If she doesn't like it here, LEAVE."

"Enough of this CRAP...we have a choice in November to take our country back!!"


^AND even with all of this.....Christians believe THEY are the ones being persecuted.

It's ridiculous!

stlcardinalsfan
06-10-2012, 08:23 PM
kinda like the Christians eh?

nooooooo, im christain, jehovas witnesses beleifs are about as bad as mormons.

no holidays,no birthdays,no windows in their worship places. i had an aunt who was one.

plus they only think 144,000 are going to heaven or some crap like that

stlcardinalsfan
06-10-2012, 08:24 PM
BTW....if anyone cares to know....just look at the "Classy" Comments on this article left by people who oppose the Principal's decision (No doubt religious persons):


"The principal should be arrested for treason."

"If you have a problem with God Bless America, then GET THE **** OUT OF AMERICA!!

"She should be roundly ashamed of herself"

"I just sent the school an email expressing my thought of this un American Principal. If you are sick of this garbage, do the same!!!"

"Fire her. She is not fit to make decisions about teaching our children in America. If she doesn't like it here, LEAVE."

"Enough of this CRAP...we have a choice in November to take our country back!!"


^AND even with all of this.....Christians believe THEY are the ones being persecuted.

It's ridiculous!


pretty much sums up my idea.

if u dont like it here,then get out.

mexicans do it all the time :party0053:

JustAlex
06-10-2012, 08:33 PM
pretty much sums up my idea.

if u dont like it here,then get out.

mexicans do it all the time :party0053:

Yeah, that's why Mexico is so bad...

Instead of fixing their country they just abandon it.

It looks like you support the same thing!


I on the other hand, am willing to fight the good fight!

The U.S is doing so badly right now, but it's my HOME and I'm not going to "GET OUT" just because the people that are messing it up don't like it when there is opposition.

This is why I'm so open about my positions, and I hope any CLOSET Liberals/atheists/rationalists see my many posts and come out to defend rationality and logic!!

We can no longer afford to sit quiet, we have to fight back against religion and ignorance!

hawk2618
06-10-2012, 10:25 PM
kinda like the Christians eh?

kinda like the Canadians eh?

shrewsbury
06-10-2012, 10:29 PM
lets not knock the religious people

at this age does a kid really know what the heck all this even means? it is just a song

andrewhoya
06-10-2012, 10:44 PM
BTW....if anyone cares to know....just look at the "Classy" Comments on this article left by people who oppose the Principal's decision (No doubt religious persons):


"The principal should be arrested for treason."

"If you have a problem with God Bless America, then GET THE **** OUT OF AMERICA!!

"She should be roundly ashamed of herself"

"I just sent the school an email expressing my thought of this un American Principal. If you are sick of this garbage, do the same!!!"

"Fire her. She is not fit to make decisions about teaching our children in America. If she doesn't like it here, LEAVE."

"Enough of this CRAP...we have a choice in November to take our country back!!"


^AND even with all of this.....Christians believe THEY are the ones being persecuted.

It's ridiculous!

So you want them to get rid of the Pledge of Allegiance, too? I agree with you, though.

Rockman
06-10-2012, 11:54 PM
Yeah, that's why Mexico is so bad...

Instead of fixing their country they just abandon it.

It looks like you support the same thing!


I on the other hand, am willing to fight the good fight!

The U.S is doing so badly right now, but it's my HOME and I'm not going to "GET OUT" just because the people that are messing it up don't like it when there is opposition.

This is why I'm so open about my positions, and I hope any CLOSET Liberals/atheists/rationalists see my many posts and come out to defend rationality and logic!!

We can no longer afford to sit quiet, we have to fight back against religion and ignorance!

Stop with the exclamation points and calm down, this isn't a rally, and we don't need to fight back against anyone. You want to fight back against ignorance? Stop with the Us vs. Them mentality.

Congrats, you got liberal/atheist/rationalist to respond.

stlcardinalsfan
06-11-2012, 12:23 AM
i really dont see why people christain bash so much.

how can somthing christain offend an athiest? they dont believe in it so why should they care? never understood that.

JustAlex
06-11-2012, 01:22 AM
So you want them to get rid of the Pledge of Allegiance, too? I agree with you, though.

You can keep the pledge of allegiance, I have no problem with it...

EXCEPT, they SHOULD remove "One nation under god".


Stop with the exclamation points and calm down, this isn't a rally, and we don't need to fight back against anyone. You want to fight back against ignorance? Stop with the Us vs. Them mentality.

Congrats, you got liberal/atheist/rationalist to respond.

"We" (liberals/atheists/rationalists) do need to fight back!

Because in this nation, Christians have the control and they want their dogma to be law, they want to discriminate against those they disagree with, and they want to SHOVE their beliefs at everyone no matter where they are (private or public).


how can somthing christain offend an athiest? they dont believe in it so why should they care? never understood that.
It's NOT that christianity "offends" atheists.

It's that you guys don't respect "Separation of church and state".

This means No religion, in any public school, office, or building.

ensbergcollector
06-11-2012, 01:58 AM
alright guys, if there is anything that 100% of the school doesn't agree with we have to get rid of it.


alex - just because the majority of the country is christian does not equal "we are in control." just look at your language and the language of the christians on here. who is trying to force their beliefs on others? who should be worried? people who disagree with christians or people who disagree with you?

theonedru
06-11-2012, 02:01 AM
Any pledge, song or the like involving the term God does not belong in a public school. It is totally disrespectful to those of different and no faith.

JustAlex
06-11-2012, 02:20 AM
alex - just because the majority of the country is christian does not equal "we are in control." just look at your language and the language of the christians on here. who is trying to force their beliefs on others? who should be worried? people who disagree with christians or people who disagree with you?
"My language"?

Oh you mean that atheists need to speak out more and retaliate against religion when it CLEARLY is trampling over "Separation of church and state"?


Yeah, I see nothing wrong with my language.....BTW, did you read the comments the Principal is getting just because she wants to remove that stupid song?

That song has NO place in a school, it is religious and a clear breach of "separation of church and state".

But of course since Christians ARE in control, no one says nothing and when someone DOES speak out, he/she is ostracized.

Do you think this is the first time someone has tried to remove religion from school without incurring RAGE from Christians?


It happens all the time.

My "Language" is that We SHOULDN'T have to take the attacks from religious zealots and we need to fight back in order to have the U.S as a secular country.....the way the constitution SAYS it should be.


Any pledge, song or the like involving the term God does not belong in a public school. It is totally disrespectful to those of different and no faith.

Exactly....that is all we ask.

Stay secular and don't force others to sing, pledge, pray to a god they don't believe in.

ensbergcollector
06-11-2012, 02:32 AM
"My language"?

Oh you mean that atheists need to speak out more and retaliate against religion when it CLEARLY is trampling over "Separation of church and state"?


Yeah, I see nothing wrong with my language.....BTW, did you read the comments the Principal is getting just because she wants to remove that stupid song?

That song has NO place in a school, it is religious and a clear breach of "separation of church and state".

But of course since Christians ARE in control, no one says nothing and when someone DOES speak out, he/she is ostracized.


Do you think this is the first time someone has tried to remove religion from school without incurring RAGE from Christians?


It happens all the time.

My "Language" is that We SHOULDN'T have to take the attacks from religious zealots and we need to fight back in order to have the U.S as a secular country.....the way the constitution SAYS it should be.



Exactly....that is all we ask.

Stay secular and don't force others to sing, pledge, pray to a god they don't believe in.


no, it is your language that is full of caps lock and exclamation points. your language of this seeming war that non-christians need to rage against those oppressive christians.

the language the teacher is getting in the comments section are ridiculous and wrong 100%.

want to show me where separation of church and state is in the constitution? oh yeah, that's right, it isn't in there.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

feel free to argue all the stuff you are spewing based in that sentence.

Trueduckfan
06-11-2012, 02:40 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2157158/NYC-principal-bans-God-Bless-America-graduation-avoid-upsetting-cultural-sensitivities.html

its another prime example of our heritage and principles fading away and giving way to the liberal thinking, PC way of life that tears at the core of family values!!!
It sure is a good way to destroy a great nation and make us weaker!
What happened to men who could take criticism and not tear up and cry about it when someone involutarilly "offends" them?

Rockman
06-11-2012, 04:11 AM
its another prime example of our heritage and principles fading away and giving way to the liberal thinking, PC way of life that tears at the core of family values!!!
It sure is a good way to destroy a great nation and make us weaker!
What happened to men who could take criticism and not tear up and cry about it when someone involutarilly "offends" them?

If it's not to much trouble, please explain using a rational, not sensational, argument as to how God Bless America not being played at a school graduation tears at the core of family values. I'm very interested.

pghin08
06-11-2012, 09:39 AM
lets not knock the religious people

at this age does a kid really know what the heck all this even means? it is just a song

That was my first thought too.

pghin08
06-11-2012, 09:41 AM
"My language"?

Oh you mean that atheists need to speak out more and retaliate against religion when it CLEARLY is trampling over "Separation of church and state"?


Yeah, I see nothing wrong with my language.....BTW, did you read the comments the Principal is getting just because she wants to remove that stupid song?

That song has NO place in a school, it is religious and a clear breach of "separation of church and state".

But of course since Christians ARE in control, no one says nothing and when someone DOES speak out, he/she is ostracized.

Do you think this is the first time someone has tried to remove religion from school without incurring RAGE from Christians?


It happens all the time.

My "Language" is that We SHOULDN'T have to take the attacks from religious zealots and we need to fight back in order to have the U.S as a secular country.....the way the constitution SAYS it should be.



Exactly....that is all we ask.

Stay secular and don't force others to sing, pledge, pray to a god they don't believe in.

I see your point, but couldn't you just abstain from singing the song if it bothered you? I'm a non-Catholic that went to a Catholic university. There were tons of religious events and happenings going on all the time, and I just didn't take part.

Star_Cards
06-11-2012, 09:46 AM
first of all we are missing the point of this... Kindergarten graduation!! I've always found kindergarten graduation to be somewhat of a joke. I just find it odd. Basically the kid graduates because he aged a year. Don't get me wrong, if the class wants to have a party or something because the kids move to the official phase of their school careers that is fine, but what are they really graduating from? I've always found these to be fairly pointless. I suppose it instills a sense of accomplishment into a child, but seems rather unnecessary to me.

As for the banning of a song because it has god in it... as a non christian this wouldn't bother me at all. Non christians are surrounded by god references like this. They are very different than something actively promoting god. If it was a prayer or something I'd definitely be on board for a ban, but this seems a bit overboard to me.

andrewhoya
06-11-2012, 10:22 AM
You can keep the pledge of allegiance, I have no problem with it...

EXCEPT, they SHOULD remove "One nation under god".


You can't just remove a part of it. It's all or nothing.

But if they remove that line, they'll have to remove 'with liberty and justice for all', as not every American has liberty and justice.

andrewhoya
06-11-2012, 10:23 AM
first of all we are missing the point of this... Kindergarten graduation!! I've always found kindergarten graduation to be somewhat of a joke. I just find it odd. Basically the kid graduates because he aged a year. Don't get me wrong, if the class wants to have a party or something because the kids move to the official phase of their school careers that is fine, but what are they really graduating from? I've always found these to be fairly pointless. I suppose it instills a sense of accomplishment into a child, but seems rather unnecessary to me.

As for the banning of a song because it has god in it... as a non christian this wouldn't bother me at all. Non christians are surrounded by god references like this. They are very different than something actively promoting god. If it was a prayer or something I'd definitely be on board for a ban, but this seems a bit overboard to me.

I agree about kindergarten. My sister just 'graduated' and they had this gigantic ceremony with caps and gowns. Seriously??

Star_Cards
06-11-2012, 10:51 AM
You can't just remove a part of it. It's all or nothing.

But if they remove that line, they'll have to remove 'with liberty and justice for all', as not every American has liberty and justice.

I may be wrong but wasn't God inserted into the pledge in the 60's. I think I remember hearing it wasn't in the original. Either way I'm all for taking it out of the pledge. Although I know it will never happen. That said, it really doesn't bother me that it's in it. I haven't said the pledge since high school or maybe even before that. It would be interesting to see the backlash if they tried to remove it.

ensbergcollector
06-11-2012, 12:09 PM
ok, if I had a child in the school, i would think it was stupid to take it away, might sign a petition to get it put back in, but wouldn't be upset or mad. My issue is that in most situations i just think it is a little ridiculous when 99.9% of the population are ok with something, that if one person is not, we shouldn't do it.
I am not advocating anything crazy, just the idea that schools have done something for years and if one person complains, then it has to go away.

Star_Cards
06-11-2012, 01:40 PM
That was my first thought too.

and if they do understand it and have questions about it in regards to it being different than your families religious views... you answer them. you tell them that most people in america and people who founded america have christian beliefs.

Star_Cards
06-11-2012, 01:45 PM
ok, if I had a child in the school, i would think it was stupid to take it away, might sign a petition to get it put back in, but wouldn't be upset or mad. My issue is that in most situations i just think it is a little ridiculous when 99.9% of the population are ok with something, that if one person is not, we shouldn't do it.
I am not advocating anything crazy, just the idea that schools have done something for years and if one person complains, then it has to go away.

I tend to agree with this. I will say that it's not the fact that they've always done it is reason to leave it... for me saying god in a song isn't like they are teaching the religion to people who have a choice not to believe it. I guess you could say that they are showing favor to one religion, but in my opinion, as an atheist and a person who doesn't think religion should be in schools, it's a pretty insignificant issue. seems like there are more important things to put forth energy and effort to.

mrveggieman
06-11-2012, 03:53 PM
LOL!


BTW, I applaud this Principal, regardless of her own beliefs, I believe EVERY single public school, office, building should be 100% religion free.

It is NOT fair to sing "God bless the USA", fully knowing there are people that don't believe in god or might believe in OTHER gods.


This is why we have separation of church and state.....NO RELIGION in ANY public building...PERIOD!


I agree. There is nothing more than I hate than having to sing a stupid song before a ballgame or any other type of public event. I think that a more appropriate idea would to be have a moment of silence to pray, meditate, sleep, sing your favorite song or do whatever you need to motivate yourself as long as you are doing it in your own mind. And dont dare come at me with this america love it or leave it crap. I am a tax payer and have every right to be here and voice my opinion as everyone else.

theonedru
06-11-2012, 04:13 PM
I agree. There is nothing more than I hate than having to sing a stupid song before a ballgame or any other type of public event. I think that a more appropriate idea would to be have a moment of silence to pray, meditate, sleep, sing your favorite song or do whatever you need to motivate yourself as long as you are doing it in your own mind. And dont dare come at me with this america love it or leave it crap. I am a tax payer and have every right to be here and voice my opinion as everyone else.

Total agreement

andrewhoya
06-11-2012, 04:14 PM
I agree. There is nothing more than I hate than having to sing a stupid song before a ballgame or any other type of public event. I think that a more appropriate idea would to be have a moment of silence to pray, meditate, sleep, sing your favorite song or do whatever you need to motivate yourself as long as you are doing it in your own mind. And dont dare come at me with this america love it or leave it crap. I am a tax payer and have every right to be here and voice my opinion as everyone else.

I find it annoying that the Nationals play God Bless America instead of Take Me Out to the Ballgame sometimes.

shrewsbury
06-11-2012, 04:20 PM
wait a minute here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

something is strange!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!












two agreements with veggieman in a row??????

seems to be impossible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Star_Cards
06-11-2012, 05:05 PM
I find it annoying that the Nationals play God Bless America instead of Take Me Out to the Ballgame sometimes.

agreed. I don't like the god bless america 7th inning stretch either. It was a trend started after 911 if I remember correctly. To me sing a fun song about baseball at a baseball game. people can reflect, be patriotic, or sing about god blessing our country on their own.

JustAlex
06-11-2012, 05:18 PM
I see your point, but couldn't you just abstain from singing the song if it bothered you? I'm a non-Catholic that went to a Catholic university. There were tons of religious events and happenings going on all the time, and I just didn't take part.

Sure you could abstain singing it, just like you could abstain from saying the pledge, but you should know exactly what will happen.

Others will murmur and ostracize those that don't do it.

This is how it's ALWAYS been, how many atheist students have been bullied in schools just because they don't believe in god.

Why should ANY child whether he is 5 or 18 have to be in a PUBLIC school dealing with religion, when the constitution has been interpreted to have a SEPARATION of church and state?


Keep religion in church and in PRIVATE.



You can't just remove a part of it. It's all or nothing.

But if they remove that line, they'll have to remove 'with liberty and justice for all', as not every American has liberty and justice.

OK fine.....remove it completely, I personally find it absurd that kids have to pledge to a flag.


I agree about kindergarten. My sister just 'graduated' and they had this gigantic ceremony with caps and gowns. Seriously??

Personally I do find it ridiculous, but who knows....in the mind of a child he/she might find it as an encouragement to keep striving in school.


My issue is that in most situations i just think it is a little ridiculous when 99.9% of the population are ok with something, that if one person is not, we shouldn't do it.
I am not advocating anything crazy, just the idea that schools have done something for years and if one person complains, then it has to go away.

That's funny since scientists are 99.9% sure Evolution is true and yet look at all the Christians who are not OK with it...

But seriously, You seem not to understand that the constitution PROTECTS the minority no matter how small it is.

BTW, why do you care about singing "God bless the USA".....Surely there are thousands of other secular songs they could sing...

Once again, I go back to the issue of Christians wanting GOD in everything.


I think that a more appropriate idea would to be have a moment of silence to pray, meditate, sleep, sing your favorite song or do whatever you need to motivate yourself as long as you are doing it in your own mind. And dont dare come at me with this america love it or leave it crap. I am a tax payer and have every right to be here and voice my opinion as everyone else.

BINGO!

A moment of silence is a much better and secular idea.

andrewhoya
06-11-2012, 05:31 PM
We get a moment of silence and the pledge.

ensbergcollector
06-11-2012, 05:46 PM
Sure you could abstain singing it, just like you could abstain from saying the pledge, but you should know exactly what will happen.

Others will murmur and ostracize those that don't do it.

This is how it's ALWAYS been, how many atheist students have been bullied in schools just because they don't believe in god.

Why should ANY child whether he is 5 or 18 have to be in a PUBLIC school dealing with religion, when the constitution has been interpreted to have a SEPARATION of church and state?


Keep religion in church and in PRIVATE.




OK fine.....remove it completely, I personally find it absurd that kids have to pledge to a flag.



Personally I do find it ridiculous, but who knows....in the mind of a child he/she might find it as an encouragement to keep striving in school.



That's funny since scientists are 99.9% sure Evolution is true and yet look at all the Christians who are not OK with it...

But seriously, You seem not to understand that the constitution PROTECTS the minority no matter how small it is.

BTW, why do you care about singing "God bless the USA".....Surely there are thousands of other secular songs they could sing...

Once again, I go back to the issue of Christians wanting GOD in everything.



BINGO!

A moment of silence is a much better and secular idea.


i think it is you who doesn't understand the constitution. feel free to respond to the separation of church and state post i made earlier. also, it is the idea that you think people need to be "protected" from anything with God in it. oh man, i hope the government protects me from the song god bless the usa. give me a break man

JustAlex
06-11-2012, 06:09 PM
i think it is you who doesn't understand the constitution. feel free to respond to the separation of church and state post i made earlier. also, it is the idea that you think people need to be "protected" from anything with God in it. oh man, i hope the government protects me from the song god bless the usa. give me a break man

I don't need to respond to your other post.

If you think Public schools have a right to discriminate by including religion where it does NOT belong you are very wrong.

Any song that includes GOD in it should not be sung in a public school, and IMO the pledge should also be changed.


You wouldn't like it if YOUR kids had to go to a public school where they sung "Krishna Bless the USA" or "One Nation under Allah".

You obviously have no problems with it because you're a christian and you believe in god, so the status quo is to your liking.



I'm an Atheist and if I had kids, I don't want them to pledge "One nation under god" when I don't even believe god exists much less that the United States is under his control.

However, whenever atheist students speak out they get ostracized.

For Example Jessica Ahlquist who spoke out against UNFAIR religion in her school:

http://www.alternet.org/belief/153803/why_is_an_atheist_high_school_student_getting_vici ous_death_threats

http://doctore0.wordpress.com/2012/04/12/threatening-note-to-atheist-student-appears-online/

Oh and BTW....SHE WON: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahlquist_v._Cranston

Jessica Ahlquist is a very courageous young lady and when this story broke out I was OUTRAGED by how christians were threatening her LIFE just because of a STUPID, INTOLERANT Religious banner in her school.


We need more people like Jessica Ahlquist in this country, the constitution is on OUR side!

ensbergcollector
06-11-2012, 06:18 PM
so, when someone points out that you were wrong in regards to your comments on the constitution, you just ignore it and don't think you need to respond to it?

i never said it was right to discriminate. however, you keep spouting separation of church and state when it is nowhere in the constitution. secondly, no one needs protecting from a song. give me a break. and you know what, if I lived in a overwhelmingly majority muslim or jewish state, i would not assume I could change the way the country works just because i believe differently.
if I lived in a muslim country, i would not complain in the least if the kids were singing "allah bless us"

JustAlex
06-11-2012, 06:27 PM
so, when someone points out that you were wrong in regards to your comments on the constitution, you just ignore it and don't think you need to respond to it?

i never said it was right to discriminate. however, you keep spouting separation of church and state when it is nowhere in the constitution. secondly, no one needs protecting from a song. give me a break. and you know what, if I lived in a overwhelmingly majority muslim or jewish state, i would not assume I could change the way the country works just because i believe differently.
if I lived in a muslim country, i would not complain in the least if the kids were singing "allah bless us"
Where was I wrong?

I said the constitution is INTERPRETED to say "separation of church and state"....which it IS!

If you lived in a muslim country.....trust me, you would be muslim, because in those countries they don't have separation of church and state and they don't have a constitution that protects the minority the way the U.S constitution protects us.

The Establishment Clause if VERY CLEAR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause

^"The establishment clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, or 2) the preference by the U.S. government of one religion over another. The first approach is called the "separation" or "no aid" interpretation, while the second approach is called the "non-preferential" or "accommodation" interpretation. "

Public Schools are funded by the government and thus fall in line with the establishment clause.

This is why in 1962 the Supreme Court determined that it is unconstitutional for state officials to compose an official school prayer and encourage its recitation in public schools.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engel_v._Vitale


And yet, MANY fanatical Christians continue to push prayer in public schools.

Why can't they just keep religion to themselves????

shrewsbury
06-11-2012, 06:37 PM
alex, why does religion bother you so much?

god can just be a higher power, a cosmic force, or even nature, why do you get so bothered by words?

theonedru
06-11-2012, 06:47 PM
alex, why does religion bother you so much?

god can just be a higher power, a cosmic force, or even nature, why do you get so bothered by words?

Most people would never see it let agree but words can be just as if not more powerful than any technological weapon we can invent.

JustAlex
06-11-2012, 07:13 PM
alex, why does religion bother you so much?

god can just be a higher power, a cosmic force, or even nature, why do you get so bothered by words?

Would you be OK if you went to school and they would have a prayer to Zeus in the morning?

What if you had to recite a pledge which included: "One nation under Thor/Krishna".

This would bother you, because you don't believe in Zeus, Thor, or Krishna.

But more than that, you would wonder.....why is this even in school?


I have no problems with people believing in god, thor, krishna, zeus, or any other god.....just keep it to yourself.


Do you remember the story of Jessica Ahlquist?

Her school had a Christian banner in the auditorium, and she wondered...."Why is this in school?"

She petitioned the the school to take it down because not everyone believes in God or they believe in a different god than the Christian god.

The school denied her.

She later went to the ACLU and the case went to court.....and she WON!

Do you know why she won?


Because our constitution has made it very clear that Congress (Government) can NOT endorse ANY religion whatsoever, and a Public School is funded by the government and thus that is NOT a place where religion should be endorsed.


But you know what happened next?

Christians threatened her life!

Just because she DARED to speak out against something which was Unconstitutional.

This is why many atheist have remained quiet.....we're in the minority, and this country has been intolerant towards atheist.

This is why I speak out.....not only in these forum but in my daily life as well.

Because, I want this country to be what the authors of the constitution wanted it to be....a secular nation.

stlcardinalsfan
06-11-2012, 07:20 PM
You can keep the pledge of allegiance, I have no problem with it...

EXCEPT, they SHOULD remove "One nation under god".



"We" (liberals/atheists/rationalists) do need to fight back!

Because in this nation, Christians have the control and they want their dogma to be law, they want to discriminate against those they disagree with, and they want to SHOVE their beliefs at everyone no matter where they are (private or public).


It's NOT that christianity "offends" atheists.

It's that you guys don't respect "Separation of church and state".

This means No religion, in any public school, office, or building.

the constitution says nothing about public schools,offices or buildings. the only place people get "separation of church and state" from is a letter maddison wrote.
the state is state official building....IE government buildings.

if you read what he wrote it has nothing to do with this.

people use the same thing for the gay marrige debate

ensbergcollector
06-11-2012, 07:56 PM
i love it:

you guys don't respect separation of church and state. oh, you mean that line that a liberal judge made popular in the 70's and now half the anti-christians out there act like it is in the constitution? yeah, i tend to struggle with that.

you use language like "the government needs to protect it's people" when talking about a song. sorry, the government was not formed to protect it's citizens from having to hear something that they don't agree with. we call ourselves a democracy but if one person out of 1000 are offended by a word then they win.

again, if I lived in a country where 90% believed in zeus, i wouldn't fight or complain if my child's school prayed to zeus. i would teach them at home what we believe and leave it at that. I would never presume that if something bothers me that I have a right to make everyone else change the status quo for me.

maybe the country has been intolerant to atheists because of the ones that are like you. the ones that say "you can believe in God, but don't dare mention it unless you are at church or at home behind closed doors. if you mention it in public then you are infringing on my rights and you are judging me and you are trying to force your beliefs on me." you use words like we need to fight christians and we need to be protected.
you really want to get all worked up because some kid might have to hear the word God at school? really?

(that said, less there be any confusion, death threats, threats of violence of any kind, etc are 100% wrong. while i may not agree with someone's opinion, they have the right to it and anyone who makes threats is 100% in the wrong)

JustAlex
06-11-2012, 08:38 PM
maybe the country has been intolerant to atheists because of the ones that are like you. the ones that say "you can believe in God, but don't dare mention it unless you are at church or at home behind closed doors. if you mention it in public then you are infringing on my rights and you are judging me and you are trying to force your beliefs on me." you use words like we need to fight christians and we need to be protected.
you really want to get all worked up because some kid might have to hear the word God at school? really?

Ok, maybe I haven't been clear on this topic (to be fair, I have been talking about several different topics at once).

Let me be clear right now.

#1 I never said "don't you dare mention religion to me".....l don't care what others believe in and you can talk about it all you want in ANY public or private place.

#2 What I DON'T want is PUBLIC schools, offices, buildings taking sides on religion and endorsing it, such as putting up a prayer banner like the one in Jessica Ahlquist's school or singing a song which mentions god when not everyone believes in god.....I'll ask again, why should they sing that song?

Why not choose the thousands of secular songs which don't mention god?

#3 Whether you like it or not "separation of church and state" IS the way the establishment clause has been interpreted and the first person to use the phrase was THOMAS JEFFERSON!.....and I already showed 2 cases how the supreme court/federal courts have ruled on the secular side.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_State s



Here are MORE decisions where the establishment clause was ruled on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everson_v._Board_of_Education
^Supreme Court applied the Establishment Clause in the country's Bill of Rights to State law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engel_v._Vitale
^Supreme Court determined that it is unconstitutional for state officials to compose an official school prayer and encourage its recitation in public schools.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abington_Township_v._Schempp
^Supreme Court ruled it Unconstitutional to have school-sponsored Bible reading in public schools.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahlquist_v._Cranston
^District Court rules that it is AGAINST the establishment clause to display religious banners in a public school.


Please let me know when the Supreme Court rules IN favor of religion in a public school......because that's never going to happen.

ensbergcollector
06-11-2012, 09:05 PM
Ok, maybe I haven't been clear on this topic (to be fair, I have been talking about several different topics at once).

Let me be clear right now.

#1 I never said "don't you dare mention religion to me".....l don't care what others believe in and you can talk about it all you want in ANY public or private place.

#2 What I DON'T want is PUBLIC schools, offices, buildings taking sides on religion and endorsing it, such as putting up a prayer banner like the one in Jessica Ahlquist's school or singing a song which mentions god when not everyone believes in god.....I'll ask again, why should they sing that song?

Why not choose the thousands of secular songs which don't mention god?

#3 Whether you like it or not "separation of church and state" IS the way the establishment clause has been interpreted and the first person to use the phrase was THOMAS JEFFERSON!.....and I already showed 2 cases how the supreme court/federal courts have ruled on the secular side.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_State s



Here are MORE decisions where the establishment clause was ruled on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everson_v._Board_of_Education
^Supreme Court applied the Establishment Clause in the country's Bill of Rights to State law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engel_v._Vitale
^Supreme Court determined that it is unconstitutional for state officials to compose an official school prayer and encourage its recitation in public schools.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abington_Township_v._Schempp
^Supreme Court ruled it Unconstitutional to have school-sponsored Bible reading in public schools.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahlquist_v._Cranston
^District Court rules that it is AGAINST the establishment clause to display religious banners in a public school.


Please let me know when the Supreme Court rules IN favor of religion in a public school......because that's never going to happen.

and I come back to the idea that only (some) atheists are so self-involved to think that if they disagree with everyone else in the world, everyone else in the world should yield to them. I don't say that because i am in the majority if I was in the minority I would never presume to make the 99% yield to the 1%.
please explain to me why people need to be protected from the word god. seriously.

also, the supreme court is determined by which party is president at any given time. for over nearly 200 years the 1st amendment was interpreted to mean that the government will not mess with religion or attempt to establish a government sanctioned religion. I was written to protect religious freedom, not protect government from religion. but all it takes is the right supreme court and all the sudden people get to say "nope, the constitution says this." There is no way someone can read the first amendment as it was written and get what you are saying from it. I know you are quoting the supreme court and they decide the laws in this country. but just because the supreme court got the right percentage of justices to be of the liberal mindset, does not mean that was the original intent of the constitution.


replace God with anything else and tell me this makes sense:

"singing a song which mentions god when not everyone believes in god"

religion is the only thing in america that is dealt with like this. if 100% of the population doesn't agree then you have to get rid of it. come on, that is ridiculous.



as I have said, my issue is not the song. i wouldn't be upset, i don't want to force the song on anyone. My issue is the logic for getting rid of it.

JustAlex
06-11-2012, 09:41 PM
if I was in the minority I would never presume to make the 99% yield to the 1%.

Who is yielding???

Jessica Ahlquist saw a religious banner that doesn't belong in school, she didn't say to replace it with an atheist banner, she said that the banner doesn't belong in school and SHE WAS RIGHT!

The school is NOT yielding to her, they are CORRECTING a problem....a proper yielding would be if they replaced the banner with something she wanted.

Why should religion be in school?

It doesn't belong there....it belongs in church or to an individual's privacy.


but just because the supreme court got the right percentage of justices to be of the liberal mindset, does not mean that was the original intent of the constitution.

LOL WOW....you do realize EVERY SINGLE Justice in the supreme court has held some kind of religious affiliation, right?

And even with their religious beliefs they understood that this nation should be SECULAR in public schools.

It's hilarious you're trying to use political parties to say that's the reason why we have so many secular laws.

The Constitution IS secular!


replace God with anything else and tell me this makes sense:

"singing a song which mentions god when not everyone believes in god"


No it doesn't make sense, that's why it SHOULD be secular.

BTW, please understand the song is not really what bothers me, the problem is the fact a PUBLIC school is endorsing a song which is religious to some effect.

Thus they are TAKING A SIDE on religion, when the establishment clause says they should NOT.

Star_Cards
06-12-2012, 09:55 AM
i love it:

you guys don't respect separation of church and state. oh, you mean that line that a liberal judge made popular in the 70's and now half the anti-christians out there act like it is in the constitution? yeah, i tend to struggle with that.

you use language like "the government needs to protect it's people" when talking about a song. sorry, the government was not formed to protect it's citizens from having to hear something that they don't agree with. we call ourselves a democracy but if one person out of 1000 are offended by a word then they win.

again, if I lived in a country where 90% believed in zeus, i wouldn't fight or complain if my child's school prayed to zeus. i would teach them at home what we believe and leave it at that. I would never presume that if something bothers me that I have a right to make everyone else change the status quo for me.

maybe the country has been intolerant to atheists because of the ones that are like you. the ones that say "you can believe in God, but don't dare mention it unless you are at church or at home behind closed doors. if you mention it in public then you are infringing on my rights and you are judging me and you are trying to force your beliefs on me." you use words like we need to fight christians and we need to be protected.
you really want to get all worked up because some kid might have to hear the word God at school? really?

(that said, less there be any confusion, death threats, threats of violence of any kind, etc are 100% wrong. while i may not agree with someone's opinion, they have the right to it and anyone who makes threats is 100% in the wrong)

To me it's more about a government (in this case a school) endorsing one specific religion over others. That ideal is way more than just saying the word god in a song. Although I said before in this thread that singing the sing doesn't bother me as an atheist. There are way more important things I can spend my outrage on. lol

shrewsbury
06-12-2012, 10:48 AM
the song does not say jesus, so how is it favoring a religion? every religion has a god

mrveggieman
06-12-2012, 10:50 AM
the song does not say jesus, so how is it favoring a religion? every religion has a god


If I could play devil's advocate (pun intended :sign0020:) what about devil worshipers? They don't like God and may be offended.

pghin08
06-12-2012, 10:55 AM
and I come back to the idea that only (some) atheists are so self-involved to think that if they disagree with everyone else in the world, everyone else in the world should yield to them. I don't say that because i am in the majority if I was in the minority I would never presume to make the 99% yield to the 1%.
please explain to me why people need to be protected from the word god. seriously.

also, the supreme court is determined by which party is president at any given time. for over nearly 200 years the 1st amendment was interpreted to mean that the government will not mess with religion or attempt to establish a government sanctioned religion. I was written to protect religious freedom, not protect government from religion. but all it takes is the right supreme court and all the sudden people get to say "nope, the constitution says this." There is no way someone can read the first amendment as it was written and get what you are saying from it. I know you are quoting the supreme court and they decide the laws in this country. but just because the supreme court got the right percentage of justices to be of the liberal mindset, does not mean that was the original intent of the constitution.


replace God with anything else and tell me this makes sense:

"singing a song which mentions god when not everyone believes in god"

religion is the only thing in america that is dealt with like this. if 100% of the population doesn't agree then you have to get rid of it. come on, that is ridiculous.



as I have said, my issue is not the song. i wouldn't be upset, i don't want to force the song on anyone. My issue is the logic for getting rid of it.

I actually agree. Unfortunately, for those who don't believe in a Christian God, if you were to abstain from singing the song, you would be subject to ridicule by your classmates. When I was in school, we had a foreign exchange student who I became friends with, and he refused to say the pledge of allegiance. His logic was simple, I'm not from here, so I don't pledge my allegiance to this place. The things that people said to him and about him, I'm unable to repeat here.

The lesson to me should not be about eliminating any semblance of religion from all public sites, but rather to respect those with different beliefs than you hold.

ensbergcollector
06-12-2012, 11:04 AM
I actually agree. Unfortunately, for those who don't believe in a Christian God, if you were to abstain from singing the song, you would be subject to ridicule by your classmates. When I was in school, we had a foreign exchange student who I became friends with, and he refused to say the pledge of allegiance. His logic was simple, I'm not from here, so I don't pledge my allegiance to this place. The things that people said to him and about him, I'm unable to repeat here.

The lesson to me should not be about eliminating any semblance of religion from all public sites, but rather to respect those with different beliefs than you hold.

agree completely. we actually had multiple people in our high school who would not say the pledge. fortunately, no one really cared and it wasn't a big deal.
i think one of the differences, even in the last 10-15 years, is that 15 years ago, if someone was an atheist and a school was singing God bless america, they would not participate and that would be the end up it. Now, that same student feels the power to contact the NAACP and sue the school. Which, as shown here, some feel they should.

mrveggieman
06-12-2012, 11:07 AM
I actually agree. Unfortunately, for those who don't believe in a Christian God, if you were to abstain from singing the song, you would be subject to ridicule by your classmates. When I was in school, we had a foreign exchange student who I became friends with, and he refused to say the pledge of allegiance. His logic was simple, I'm not from here, so I don't pledge my allegiance to this place. The things that people said to him and about him, I'm unable to repeat here.

The lesson to me should not be about eliminating any semblance of religion from all public sites, but rather to respect those with different beliefs than you hold.


Yeah I remember when I was in 5th or 6th grade there was a guy that was a jehova's witness. Up until then none of us knew anything about it. We looked at him kind of strange when he did not stand up for the pledge of allegience like everyone else but now looking back at it I have a lot of respect for him standing up to his beliefs regardless of any schoolyard ridicule or mocking.

Frantiic
06-12-2012, 11:11 AM
we are not allowed to sing the swedish national anthem when we graduate etc. they say its racist ....

shrewsbury
06-12-2012, 12:21 PM
veggie, isn't the devil their god?

pghin08
06-12-2012, 12:23 PM
we are not allowed to sing the swedish national anthem when we graduate etc. they say its racist ....

Seriously? How is your anthem racist?

mrveggieman
06-12-2012, 12:30 PM
veggie, isn't the devil their god?


Good point. :thumb:

JustAlex
06-12-2012, 02:16 PM
I actually agree. Unfortunately, for those who don't believe in a Christian God, if you were to abstain from singing the song, you would be subject to ridicule by your classmates. When I was in school, we had a foreign exchange student who I became friends with, and he refused to say the pledge of allegiance. His logic was simple, I'm not from here, so I don't pledge my allegiance to this place. The things that people said to him and about him, I'm unable to repeat here.

The lesson to me should not be about eliminating any semblance of religion from all public sites, but rather to respect those with different beliefs than you hold.
I agree we can have tolerance for one another, but that doesn't mean that we should allow religion where it does not belong...

I believe very strongly in "Separation of church and State".....and religion has NO place in public schools, offices, buildings, etc.

Again, I go back to the question which NO ONE here has answered!

Why should religion be in school?


Can someone here give ONE good reason why we should have religion in schools or offices or buildings?


And PLEASE, don't misunderstand what I'm trying to say.....If you want to pray/read the bible to yourself I'm perfectly fine with that no matter where you are.

HOWEVER.....a school endorsed prayer or a religious banner at an auditorium, or singing a song which endorses god, that is NOT tolerable!

tutall
06-12-2012, 02:32 PM
Sure you could abstain singing it, just like you could abstain from saying the pledge, but you should know exactly what will happen.

Others will murmur and ostracize those that don't do it.

Not really true.. I rarely say anything in a group of people because I have a very loud and boisterous voice and kinda stick out in a crowd.... I have never once been felt like I have been looked down upon or anything. I just choose not to do it.


This is how it's ALWAYS been, how many atheist students have been bullied in schools just because they don't believe in god.

Why should ANY child whether he is 5 or 18 have to be in a PUBLIC school dealing with religion, when the constitution has been interpreted to have a SEPARATION of church and state?


Keep religion in church and in PRIVATE.

why dont you keep your non-religion PRIVATE. Why post it on a board?



That's funny since scientists are 99.9% sure Evolution is true and yet look at all the Christians who are not OK with it...

Scientists make up a very small percentage of the population and have no proof their ideas are fact.... You show me actual FACT that you are right and I wll agree with you... Just like I cannot point to a photograph from 2000+ years ago and show you, you cannot find me a sgle thing that shows what scientists believe is true... If you could it would debunk everything and all scientists would agree on exactly what happened... Which is not the case



But seriously, You seem not to understand that the constitution PROTECTS the minority no matter how small it is.

Please show me where this is anything constitutional at all?



BTW, why do you care about singing "God bless the USA".....Surely there are thousands of other secular songs they could sing...

Once again, I go back to the issue of Christians wanting GOD in everything.

BINGO!

A moment of silence is a much better and secular idea.

Because it is a tradition... I could care less what the song is about but honestly you could find a reason to reject any song that is ever played...




Either way to get an idea on this story do a little more research into this principal... I would be anything on is there is a trackrecord of many more dumb things she has done.

As far as the comments on the story.... Apparently you rarely read news storieswith comments as I have almost never read anything intelligent in that section no matter what the story was about

shrewsbury
06-12-2012, 02:35 PM
why can't religious people be religious where ever they are?

tutall
06-12-2012, 02:38 PM
Would you be OK if you went to school and they would have a prayer to Zeus in the morning?

What if you had to recite a pledge which included: "One nation under Thor/Krishna".

This would bother you, because you don't believe in Zeus, Thor, or Krishna.

But more than that, you would wonder.....why is this even in school?


I have no problems with people believing in god, thor, krishna, zeus, or any other god.....just keep it to yourself.

This has nothing to do with prayer though... It is about a ptriot song that is sung many places... I do have a problem with an actual prayer being said over the loudspeaker at a school.... Not because it is unconstitutional but because I d believe in equality for everyone and their religion. Either way though your example is wrong because in my opinion this is not close to the same as prayer

JustAlex
06-12-2012, 02:43 PM
why can't religious people be religious where ever they are?

*sigh* you misunderstood my question...

I'm NOT saying people can't be religious....I'm asking why a SCHOOL or OFFICE or any other PUBLIC place should endorse religion?

Are there any good reasons for this?

IMO....NO!

tutall
06-12-2012, 02:45 PM
I agree we can have tolerance for one another, but that doesn't mean that we should allow religion where it does not belong...

I believe very strongly in "Separation of church and State".....and religion has NO place in public schools, offices, buildings, etc.

Again, I go back to the question which NO ONE here has answered!

Why should religion be in school?


Can someone here give ONE good reason why we should have religion in schools or offices or buildings?


And PLEASE, don't misunderstand what I'm trying to say.....If you want to pray/read the bible to yourself I'm perfectly fine with that no matter where you are.

HOWEVER.....a school endorsed prayer or a religious banner at an auditorium, or singing a song which endorses god, that is NOT tolerable!

Show me one reason you should get upset a simple patriotic song at a Kindergarten graduation is offending you like this? I dont believe religion should be in school... I do not though have a problem with a song that is much more about the US than God being played in a school... A lot of marching bands play religion songs or hymns while warming up.... Should they all be sued to get that taken out of the system?

tutall
06-12-2012, 03:02 PM
Do you have a problem with any of these?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ettl3zfLWus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_l8KK3gGxQ

I hope you do have issue with it... I have an issue with anything the school teaches my child. I dont want them teaching him about sexual education as I think it is a parents job. I want them teaching him how to read, write, add, subtract, etc... I want them teaching actual history not the watered down politicized views a lot of teachers and professors have. You can teach science but if you are going to teac evolution I could see how the argument can be made that creationism needs to at least be mentioned as evolution could be played at offensive to some students as well.... If you dont want to dont teach either of them

Star_Cards
06-12-2012, 03:03 PM
why can't religious people be religious where ever they are?

we aren't talking about individuals. we're speaking about a public, tax payer funded school. the people at the ceremony have can be religious and are or aren't depending on the individual. The issue is about the organization that is funded by tax payers assuming that everyone follows a religion under god.

just saying again, this fight for or against singing a song that says the word god in it really isn't worth a fight... on either side.

tutall
06-12-2012, 03:05 PM
we aren't talking about individuals. we're speaking about a public, tax payer funded school. the people at the ceremony have can be religious and are or aren't depending on the individual. The issue is about the organization that is funded by tax payers assuming that everyone follows a religion under god.

just saying again, this fight for or against singing a song that says the word god in it really isn't worth a fight... on either side.

Just throwing this out as I have heard it but what about my tax dollars also? I am a tax paying citizen and what if I believe it should be in there... Why should an atheists dollars be worth more than mine?

Frantiic
06-12-2012, 03:14 PM
Seriously? How is your anthem racist?

Its not really haha. we dont sing about sweden, we sing about the Nordic(or scandinavia) (Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland & Iceland)

the song ends in swedish "Ja jag vill leva, jag vill dö i norden"
and in english its something like "I want to live, I want to Die in scandinavia"

so there's NOTHING racist about it. It's wrong to love your country in sweden. We have alot of immigrants from the arabic world. So every swede is stepping on their toes when singing the national anthem in public.

I was told when I went to school that I was not allowed to wear swedish hockey jerseys etc in our yearbook. but the immigrants were allowed to wear an iraqi or whatever country they came from jersey, no problem. thats messed up. Im in no way racist, in fact, im so far to the left in politics most can be. not a commie though. but close ;)

ffman
06-12-2012, 03:14 PM
Where was I wrong?

I said the constitution is INTERPRETED to say "separation of church and state"....which it IS!

If you lived in a muslim country.....trust me, you would be muslim, because in those countries they don't have separation of church and state and they don't have a constitution that protects the minority the way the U.S constitution protects us.

The Establishment Clause if VERY CLEAR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause

^"The establishment clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit 1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, or 2) the preference by the U.S. government of one religion over another. The first approach is called the "separation" or "no aid" interpretation, while the second approach is called the "non-preferential" or "accommodation" interpretation. "

Public Schools are funded by the government and thus fall in line with the establishment clause.

This is why in 1962 the Supreme Court determined that it is unconstitutional for state officials to compose an official school prayer and encourage its recitation in public schools.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engel_v._Vitale


And yet, MANY fanatical Christians continue to push prayer in public schools.

Why can't they just keep religion to themselves????

Fanatical Christians? What's so "fanatical" about a prayer that you can choose not to participate in?

Extreme atheists accuse Christians of being discriminatory toward other cultures. These atheists are just of discriminatory toward Christians! The pot calling the kettle black.

And, since political terms are being thrown away as well - I would consider myself more liberal than conservative. More importantly, I am a Christian: a Christian who believes in peace and love - not hate and violence.

JustAlex
06-12-2012, 03:21 PM
Show me one reason you should get upset a simple patriotic song at a Kindergarten graduation is offending you like this? I dont believe religion should be in school... I do not though have a problem with a song that is much more about the US than God being played in a school... A lot of marching bands play religion songs or hymns while warming up.... Should they all be sued to get that taken out of the system?

You don't get it....

It's not really the song that bothers me....it's the fact that a PUBLIC school is endorsing a song which has RELIGIOUS meaning, by doing so they are taking sides on Christianity which is illegal under the establishment clause.

You don't care because you believe in god, thus you have no problem with that song, however I DON'T believe in god and I don't believe a school should endorse ANY songs which mention god because they are endorsing religion, which they should NOT be able to do.


Just throwing this out as I have heard it but what about my tax dollars also? I am a tax paying citizen and what if I believe it should be in there... Why should an atheists dollars be worth more than mine?
HA!

"Atheists dollars".....HILARIOUS!

Your religion has NO place in any public school, end of story!

If you don't understand why, I'm not going to explain it to you, read the numerous posts I have made why it's wrong to do so!

JustAlex
06-12-2012, 03:26 PM
Fanatical Christians? What's so "fanatical" about a prayer that you can choose not to participate in?

Extreme atheists accuse Christians of being discriminatory toward other cultures. These atheists are just of discriminatory toward Christians! The pot calling the kettle black.

LOL, here we go....this is what I mean by Christians not abiding by the constitution and wanting their religion EVERYWHERE!

Keep your beliefs in your church and out of schools!

NO, we shouldn't have school endorsed prayers at school...

There are no negotiations...

Why can't you understand that not everyone believes in your god!

The constitution protects everyone, not just the majority and it has made it clear that there should be a separation of church and state.

This means keep religion in church and keep the state secular, that way we don't have any conflicts with the many beliefs that people have!

mrveggieman
06-12-2012, 03:28 PM
Its not really haha. we dont sing about sweden, we sing about the Nordic(or scandinavia) (Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland & Iceland)

the song ends in swedish "Ja jag vill leva, jag vill dö i norden"
and in english its something like "I want to live, I want to Die in scandinavia"

so there's NOTHING racist about it. It's wrong to love your country in sweden. We have alot of immigrants from the arabic world. So every swede is stepping on their toes when singing the national anthem in public.

I was told when I went to school that I was not allowed to wear swedish hockey jerseys etc in our yearbook. but the immigrants were allowed to wear an iraqi or whatever country they came from jersey, no problem. thats messed up. Im in no way racist, in fact, im so far to the left in politics most can be. not a commie though. but close ;)

Wow no team sweeden hockey jerseys. I know that in some parts of california oakland raider and los angeles kings gear was banned but that was because it was used by steet gangs and kids were being robbed and killed for their hats/jackets/shoes etc. It's so sad that in todays days and times a kid can't wear the jersey or his/her favorite sports team because of what some other knucklehead may do or think.

boba
06-12-2012, 03:29 PM
LOL, here we go....this is what I mean by Christians not abiding by the constitution and wanting their religion EVERYWHERE!

Keep your beliefs in your church and out of schools!

NO, we shouldn't have school endorsed prayers at school...

There are no negotiations...

Why can't you understand that not everyone believes in your god!

The constitution protects everyone, not just the majority and it has made it clear that there should be a separation of church and state.

This means keep religion in church and keep the state secular, that way we don't have any conflicts with the many beliefs that people have!


Do you understand that the schools are pushing your religion?

Btw, can't wait to see your bowman box break! You know this is a sports card forum : )

tutall
06-12-2012, 03:30 PM
You don't get it....

It's not really the song that bothers me....it's the fact that a PUBLIC school is endorsing a song which has RELIGIOUS meaning, by doing so they are taking sides on Christianity which is illegal under the establishment clause.

You don't care because you believe in god, thus you have no problem with that song, however I DON'T believe in god and I don't believe a school should endorse ANY songs which mention god because they are endorsing religion, which they should NOT be able to do.


HA!

"Atheists dollars".....HILARIOUS!

Your religion has NO place in any public school, end of story!

If you don't understand why, I'm not going to explain it to you, read the numerous posts I have made why it's wrong to do so!

Read the entire posts... I am against anything being taught to kids in order to indoctrinate them... Singing a patriotic song that speaks more towards loving this country that will give you every opportunity you could ever want than it does anythign regarding god....

If tomorrow all the things were gone,
I'd worked for all my life.
And I had to start again,
with just my children and my wife.

I'd thank my lucky stars,
to be livin here today.
‘Cause the flag still stands for freedom,
and they can't take that away.

And I'm proud to be an American,
where at least I know I'm free.
And I wont forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.

And I gladly stand up,
next to you and defend her still today.
‘Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land,
God bless the USA.

From the lakes of Minnesota,
to the hills of Tennessee.
Across the plains of Texas,
From sea to shining sea.

From Detroit down to Houston,
and New York to L.A.
Well there's pride in every American heart,
and its time we stand and say.

That I'm proud to be an American,
where at least I know I'm free.
And I wont forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.

And I gladly stand up,
next to you and defend her still today.
‘Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land,
God bless the USA.

And I'm proud to be and American,
where at least I know I'm free.
And I wont forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.

And I gladly stand up,
next to you and defend her still today.
‘Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land,
God bless the USA.

... I mean seriously... how is that offensive?

mrveggieman
06-12-2012, 03:33 PM
LOL, here we go....this is what I mean by Christians not abiding by the constitution and wanting their religion EVERYWHERE!

Keep your beliefs in your church and out of schools!

NO, we shouldn't have school endorsed prayers at school...

There are no negotiations...

Why can't you understand that not everyone believes in your god!

The constitution protects everyone, not just the majority and it has made it clear that there should be a separation of church and state.

This means keep religion in church and keep the state secular, that way we don't have any conflicts with the many beliefs that people have!

There should be a coalition of 1 person from each of the aramanic religions (christanity, islam, judiasm), a budhist, hindu, atheist and some from some of the other religions and there should be some way they can compromise on a moment or a few minutes of silence before school. What's so hard about that? The problem is everyone has their own egos and agendas and no one wants to compromise their beliefs. SMH.

mrveggieman
06-12-2012, 03:36 PM
Read the entire posts... I am against anything being taught to kids in order to indoctrinate them... Singing a patriotic song that speaks more towards loving this country that will give you every opportunity you could ever want than it does anythign regarding god....

If tomorrow all the things were gone,
I'd worked for all my life.
And I had to start again,
with just my children and my wife.

I'd thank my lucky stars,
to be livin here today.
‘Cause the flag still stands for freedom,
and they can't take that away.

And I'm proud to be an American,
where at least I know I'm free.
And I wont forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.

And I gladly stand up,
next to you and defend her still today.
‘Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land,
God bless the USA.

From the lakes of Minnesota,
to the hills of Tennessee.
Across the plains of Texas,
From sea to shining sea.

From Detroit down to Houston,
and New York to L.A.
Well there's pride in every American heart,
and its time we stand and say.

That I'm proud to be an American,
where at least I know I'm free.
And I wont forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.

And I gladly stand up,
next to you and defend her still today.
‘Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land,
God bless the USA.

And I'm proud to be and American,
where at least I know I'm free.
And I wont forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.

And I gladly stand up,
next to you and defend her still today.
‘Cause there ain't no doubt I love this land,
God bless the USA.

... I mean seriously... how is that offensive?


It's a cute song but I agree with Alex it is not appropriate for school. Not because it mentions God but because of the political overtones. Also a Jehovah's witness would not care to sing that type of song either so it probably would be offensive to certian religions or possibly atheists. If you need something like that to motivate you before school feel free to sing it to your self during your moment of silence.

JustAlex
06-12-2012, 03:38 PM
Do you understand that the schools are pushing your religion?

LOL, are you really making this argument?

I have a better chance at saying that not collecting baseball cards is a hobby.

Seriously, don't come in here saying atheist are religious because that's the biggest oxymoron ever.


... I mean seriously... how is that offensive?

"God bless the USA"

The school is endorsing God, which is against the establishment clause....also, not everyone believes in god or they believe in a different god than the christian god.

mrveggieman
06-12-2012, 03:42 PM
LOL, are you really making this argument?

I have a better chance at saying that not collecting baseball cards is a hobby.

Seriously, don't come in here saying atheist are religious because that's the biggest oxymoron ever.



"God bless the USA"

The school is endorsing God, which is against the establishment clause....also, not everyone believes in god or they believe in a different god than the christian god.


If I could play devil's advocate some but not all atheists do treat atheism as their religion. They even have weekly meeting similiar to church. To each his own but if I was an atheist the last thing I would want to do is participate in any activity that is even the remote bit like church.

tutall
06-12-2012, 03:44 PM
I cant honestly believe you are truly offended by that... I am pretty sure there are a million things that would offend you 100 times more than singing a simple song at school... Does it have its place? I dont care honestly but to get this out of shape about it and ban the song is a little dumb and a waste of time and money.

Frantiic
06-12-2012, 03:45 PM
yeh, its messed up for sure.

Here's the swedish national anthem translated into english

1Thou ancient, thou free, thou mountainous North
Thou quiet, thou joyful [and] fair!
I greet thee, most beautiful land upon earth,/:
Thy sun, Thy sky, Thy meadows green.:/

2Thou art enthroned upon memories of great olden days,
When honored thy name flew across the earth,
I know that thou art and wilt remain what thou wast,
/:Yes, I want to live I want to die in the North (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countries):/

There's also verse 3 and 4. which is not used.



I forever want to serve thee, my beloved country,
Loyalty until death I want to swear thee,
Thy right I will protect with mind and with hand,
/: thy banner, the heroes carry high.:/

4With God I shall fight for home and for hearth,
for Sweden, the beloved native soil.
I trade thee not, for anything in a world
/: No, I want to live, I want to die in the North.:/

the last two verses is not racist either. but people tend to say it is.

ffman
06-12-2012, 04:27 PM
LOL, here we go....this is what I mean by Christians not abiding by the constitution and wanting their religion EVERYWHERE!

Keep your beliefs in your church and out of schools!

NO, we shouldn't have school endorsed prayers at school...

There are no negotiations...

Why can't you understand that not everyone believes in your god!

The constitution protects everyone, not just the majority and it has made it clear that there should be a separation of church and state.

This means keep religion in church and keep the state secular, that way we don't have any conflicts with the many beliefs that people have!

I find it funny that our country has been fine for years upon years with God in the Pledge of Allegiance, God in God Bless America, etc - and now it "has to stop".

Why was it not offensive then but is now? What's so offensive about having an OPTIONAL prayer meeting around the flag pole before school sessions begin? If you don't believe in God, don't attend the meeting.

ensbergcollector
06-12-2012, 04:38 PM
i can't get over the idea that people have to be "protected" from the word god.

Star_Cards
06-12-2012, 04:45 PM
Just throwing this out as I have heard it but what about my tax dollars also? I am a tax paying citizen and what if I believe it should be in there... Why should an atheists dollars be worth more than mine?


I don't see the act of not referencing a god (any god) or religious belief as the same thing as endorsing atheism. It's simply not endorsing one belief over the other. Each person in that room has every right to think about whatever they want in that ceremony and if it's giving thanks to god or not that is perfectly acceptable. Atheism would not be promoted and should not be promoted either.

No one's tax dollar is any more valuable than any others. I actually would bet that this decision to not sing a song that mentions god had to do with other religions that were represented at the school being offended and not just atheists. I might even go as far as to say that atheists were potentially very low on the list of people to not "offend" by singing a song that used a reference of god.


I don't see not having a specific religious belief referenced in a public tax dollar funded institution or event as endorsing atheism. I wouldn't want a song that spoke of atheism being sang either even though I am atheist. Nor would I want a song that referenced islam, judaism, or any other religion.

JustAlex
06-12-2012, 09:52 PM
I find it funny that our country has been fine for years upon years with God in the Pledge of Allegiance, God in God Bless America, etc - and now it "has to stop".

Why was it not offensive then but is now? What's so offensive about having an OPTIONAL prayer meeting around the flag pole before school sessions begin? If you don't believe in God, don't attend the meeting.

Wow, how many times are christians going to do the same argument???

It's NOT about being offensive, it's about being WRONG to endorse any religion.

Just like you wouldn't like schools to endorse Islam or Hinduism, we (atheist) and other religions outside of Christianity don't think schools should endorse ANY religion whatsoever.

Why can't you keep your beliefs to yourself???

Why must you force it into schools...."God Bless America"???


To me this sounds like "The Flying Spaghetti Monster Bless America".

We believe God is FICTIONAL like fairies, leprechauns, and unicorns.....he is NOT blessing America.

And kids shouldn't have to sing a song in a public school that is blatantly endorsing Christianity.


i can't get over the idea that people have to be "protected" from the word god.

That's because it's NOT the word god that offends us, it's the ENDORSEMENT!

I know you understand this.....you just don't want to admit it.

JustAlex
06-12-2012, 09:55 PM
I don't see the act of not referencing a god (any god) or religious belief as the same thing as endorsing atheism. It's simply not endorsing one belief over the other. Each person in that room has every right to think about whatever they want in that ceremony and if it's giving thanks to god or not that is perfectly acceptable. Atheism would not be promoted and should not be promoted either.

Exactly!

We don't want schools to endorse ANY beliefs, we want it to be strictly secular!

Besides, school is NOT a place of worship, faith, or belief...

School are a place to get educated with REAL FACTS and skills which will later make us better human beings.


Why can't Theists see things the rational way?

Why must they insists in having religion everywhere outside of church?

shrewsbury
06-12-2012, 10:03 PM
so no santa songs?

no fairy tales, mother goose, paul bunyun, tom sawyer?

JustAlex
06-12-2012, 10:11 PM
so no santa songs?

no fairy tales, mother goose, paul bunyun, tom sawyer?

You see, the difference there is those things are secular.

If one day we all agree that God and the bible are fairy tale and NOT real, then it would ALSO become secular.

So until that day.....no school endorsed religion.


Ok, let's be frank for a second, I'm not saying people shouldn't be religious at school.

You can pray and read the bible to yourself and you can even talk about religion to other classmates.

However, the only thing we ask is to keep schools NEUTRAL on religion.

Don't you think that's only fair?


Don't you think schools should only be a place to get educated on math, science, literature, history, etc?


I understand that Religion is a big part of many American's lives....however just like the Bible says.

"There's a time and place for everything"

ensbergcollector
06-12-2012, 10:20 PM
Wow, how many times are christians going to do the same argument???

It's NOT about being offensive, it's about being WRONG to endorse any religion.

Just like you wouldn't like schools to endorse Islam or Hinduism, we (atheist) and other religions outside of Christianity don't think schools should endorse ANY religion whatsoever.

Why can't you keep your beliefs to yourself???

Why must you force it into schools...."God Bless America"???


To me this sounds like "The Flying Spaghetti Monster Bless America".

We believe God is FICTIONAL like fairies, leprechauns, and unicorns.....he is NOT blessing America.

And kids shouldn't have to sing a song in a public school that is blatantly endorsing Christianity.



That's because it's NOT the word god that offends us, it's the ENDORSEMENT!

I know you understand this.....you just don't want to admit it.

first of all, no one is forcing it into schools. i think this is one of the biggest problems with your argument. you are fighting as though christians are trying to force things INTO schools. guess what? it isn't happening. You are dealing with something that has been in schools for tens of years. there is no forcing into. In fact, i would never promote adding anything to a public school that has anything to do with God. I think you and I are closer than you think on this issue.

so since God is the same as fairies and other fictional characters, why aren't you fighting anything in school that involves them?

you keep saying "just like you wouldn't like a school endorsing another religion" and I keep saying, if the majority of the school believed in a different religion, i would have zero problem with a once a year song or reference to the God that 95% of the school population believes in so your statement about how "we" would feel is categorically wrong.

lastly, my issue is not the word God. it is your repeated use of the word protect. why must you be PROTECTED from the "endorsement" of religion?

JustAlex
06-12-2012, 10:51 PM
first of all, no one is forcing it into schools. i think this is one of the biggest problems with your argument. you are fighting as though christians are trying to force things INTO schools. guess what? it isn't happening. You are dealing with something that has been in schools for tens of years. there is no forcing into. In fact, i would never promote adding anything to a public school that has anything to do with God. I think you and I are closer than you think on this issue.

Ok fine, if it's been there for tens of years, but it doesn't belong there....take it out...

Just like School endorsed prayer was there for tens of years, the Supreme court later said "no, schools should not endorse any religious prayers" and they took it out.

so since God is the same as fairies and other fictional characters, why aren't you fighting anything in school that involves them?

This is an easy answer......because there are no religions which have leprechauns, fairies, unicorns, etc. as their god, the overwhelming majority of people understand that these things are fictional.

Why are they fictional?

Because we have never seen a leprechaun, fairy, or unicorn, also there is no evidence that they ever existed and lastly because they go in contradiction to the physical laws of nature.

The only place these things exist is in BOOKS.....hmm, does this sound familiar?

you keep saying "just like you wouldn't like a school endorsing another religion" and I keep saying, if the majority of the school believed in a different religion, i would have zero problem with a once a year song or reference to the God that 95% of the school population believes in so your statement about how "we" would feel is categorically wrong.

Fine, you wouldn't speak out....however, I would.

Because I believe there is a time and place for everything, and school is not the place to be worshiping or admiring god as a collective....if you want to do it in private or to yourself, I'm perfectly fine with that.

lastly, my issue is not the word God. it is your repeated use of the word protect. why must you be PROTECTED from the "endorsement" of religion?

Again, because it's UNFAIR and it doesn't belong in schools or any other public place.

For example in Jessica Alhquist's school there was a prayer banner in the auditorium that had been there for many years.

Why should a school have a prayer banner or sing songs which endorse the christian god?

School is a place of education, it's NOT a house of worship.

Jessica stood up and spoke for a small minority, and the courts ruled in her favor.

Responses in bold.

shrewsbury
06-12-2012, 11:35 PM
but children or told santa is real, who also goes by saint nick

christmas songs about santa our sung in just about every school

so why does it matter if a child sings a song. when you are old enough to figure things out on your own, you can decide to participate in it or not

ensbergcollector
06-13-2012, 12:47 AM
alex - dude, first of all, get over yourself. singing God bless america does not turn a school into a "house of worship." You keep saying christians are fine with it because they have things their way. isn't that exactly what you are doing? because the song got taken out and the banner got taken down, you, who believes in no God, gets exactly what you want.

you say you are fine with religion but your own words say that you are only fine if it is locked up behind closed doors "where it belongs".

my biggest issue, as I have said the entire time, is the idea that 1 person being offended is just cause for 100's to change their tradition. Nowhere does the constitution say it is the job of the government to protect the 1% and nowhere does the constitution say that the government needs to Protect the population from religion.

God bless america is not a worship song, it is not a praise song. It is a song about our country, and whether you like it or not, a large amount of the founding of this country was steeped in religion. If you do away with all things religion, you lose a very large portion of this countries origins and whether I was a christian or not, that would bother me.

JustAlex
06-13-2012, 01:37 AM
alex - dude, first of all, get over yourself. singing God bless america does not turn a school into a "house of worship." You keep saying christians are fine with it because they have things their way. isn't that exactly what you are doing? because the song got taken out and the banner got taken down, you, who believes in no God, gets exactly what you want.

No, if I had things the way I wanted...then I would probably outlaw all religion in the U.S.

However, as much as I don't like religion, I realize it is hypocritical of me to say the above statement (Since I believe in freedom of expression), and so I am willing to COMPROMISE!

Why are YOU not willing to compromise?

I say that we should remain NEUTRAL on religion in public school.....you have already said (MANY TIMES) that if you were in the minority you would not care what the 99% say and do in regards to religion in school.

In other words you are perfectly fine with religion in school and by saying you don't care what the majority do, you are being complicit.


you say you are fine with religion but your own words say that you are only fine if it is locked up behind closed doors "where it belongs".

What are we doing right now?

We are discussing religion....and I'm perfectly fine with hearing and arguing all your beliefs just the way you argue my beliefs.

This is what it means to live in a free society, we are able to freely say what we want to say.

And guess what when a school endorses a religion....they are taking AWAY our freedoms.

Our freedom of religion, our freedom to believe whatever we want to believe.

Why in the world do you believe that school should be a place for religion?


my biggest issue, as I have said the entire time, is the idea that 1 person being offended is just cause for 100's to change their tradition. Nowhere does the constitution say it is the job of the government to protect the 1% and nowhere does the constitution say that the government needs to Protect the population from religion.

Let me ask you something...

When "The South" had slaves, what percentage of Southerners do you think was OK with that?

Probably a VERY HIGH MAJORITY....maybe 90% - 99%.

It does NOT matter how low the minority might be our laws are NOT in accordance to what the majority want.

"The United States of America is not just a democracy – it is a constitutional democracy. What that means is that our government is designed to express not only the will of the majority (democracy), but also to simultaneously protect the unalienable rights of minorities and the powerless."


God bless america is not a worship song, it is not a praise song. It is a song about our country, and whether you like it or not, a large amount of the founding of this country was steeped in religion. If you do away with all things religion, you lose a very large portion of this countries origins and whether I was a christian or not, that would bother me.

Actually....it is!

When you say "god bless America" you are giving in to a higher power, a supernatural being who is in "control".

When you sing about god blessing America you are in some effect worshiping that God for blessing this country.

And BTW, if God really did exists, he's doing a VERY POOR JOB of "blessing" this country!

JustAlex
06-13-2012, 01:43 AM
One more thing before I go to sleep.

@ensbergcollector....I hope you realize I'm not going after you or attacking you or anything like that.

I know I make long responses, but honestly, I like debating you and I fully appreciate your comments.

I just hope you realize that my comments are only meant in the spirt of debate and discourse not to attack you.

Star_Cards
06-13-2012, 01:47 AM
I find it funny that our country has been fine for years upon years with God in the Pledge of Allegiance, God in God Bless America, etc - and now it "has to stop".

Why was it not offensive then but is now? What's so offensive about having an OPTIONAL prayer meeting around the flag pole before school sessions begin? If you don't believe in God, don't attend the meeting.

I personally don't find it offensive that god was added to the pledge. I just think it doesn't need to be in there. Although I lose zero sleep over it. My main issue with it is that one doesn't need to believe in a specific god or god at all to pledge allegiance to the country. It just doesn't need to be in there.

as far as not being an issue when god was added to the pledge in 1954, our country had a lot less diversity than it does today... or at least it's much more recognized than it seemed to be back then. There are still a lot of christians in the country today but there are still quite a few people that aren't. That's where the main issue comes from. Although I will say that it's really way far down the list of issues when it comes to religious views dominating things such as legislation and such. I haven't said the pledge since high school so I don't pledge allegiance to the flag under god anymore.

boba
06-13-2012, 01:48 AM
No, if I had things the way I wanted...then I would probably outlaw all religion in the U.S.




What an open minded individual. Do you see your posts?

Star_Cards
06-13-2012, 01:51 AM
alex - dude, first of all, get over yourself. singing God bless america does not turn a school into a "house of worship." You keep saying christians are fine with it because they have things their way. isn't that exactly what you are doing? because the song got taken out and the banner got taken down, you, who believes in no God, gets exactly what you want.

you say you are fine with religion but your own words say that you are only fine if it is locked up behind closed doors "where it belongs".

my biggest issue, as I have said the entire time, is the idea that 1 person being offended is just cause for 100's to change their tradition. Nowhere does the constitution say it is the job of the government to protect the 1% and nowhere does the constitution say that the government needs to Protect the population from religion.

God bless america is not a worship song, it is not a praise song. It is a song about our country, and whether you like it or not, a large amount of the founding of this country was steeped in religion. If you do away with all things religion, you lose a very large portion of this countries origins and whether I was a christian or not, that would bother me.

My main thing is that taking religion out of things like this isn't promoting my atheist belief. It's not an issue about getting what I or we want as atheists. It's about it being completely void of it al together. It's about not promoting any belief structure, christian, islamic, atheist, jewish, hindu and so on. People who want god out of things like this typically aren't doing it to promote their own beliefs instead. If they are then they are hypocrites.

Star_Cards
06-13-2012, 01:53 AM
One more thing before I go to sleep.

@ensbergcollector....I hope you realize I'm not going after you or attacking you or anything like that.

I know I make long responses, but honestly, I like debating you and I fully appreciate your comments.

I just hope you realize that my comments are only meant in the spirt of debate and discourse not to attack you.

Alex, I have a question for you. Why do you hate paragraphs? you always post a sentence and then double return. Just noticed that since you've been around and thought I'd mess with you a bit. lol

boba
06-13-2012, 01:56 AM
LOL, are you really making this argument?

I have a better chance at saying that not collecting baseball cards is a hobby.

Seriously, don't come in here saying atheist are religious because that's the biggest oxymoron ever.





Definition of religion.


The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.
Details of belief as taught or discussed.

Science? :winking0071:


You also do realize that this is an online forum (even a sports card forum). Your not going to start some revival in America against religion as you seem to think in some of your posts.



I also would suggest you visit some other sections of this forum instead of just fighting in P and R, maybe even get involved in a trade. This is a really cool site.

ensbergcollector
06-13-2012, 01:58 AM
how can you even say that singing god bless america is taking away your freedoms?

also, removing all reference to any religion in school is not being neutral on religion in schools. you have made it very clear you are in no way neutral. you are only happy if there is 0 references to God in public schools, how in the world can you call that neutral?

and how is removing 100% of religious references compromising on anything? i think you are giving yourself way too much credit. being neutral, compromising...you are doing nothing of the sort.


"hey everyone, I know you have sung this song for decades but it is now gone because 1 person had a problem with it. but don't worry, we compromised on this."

you do know that a compromise is both sides yielding a little until both reach a place of agreement. how exactly is what you propose compromising on anything?

Aikman_TheGreat
06-13-2012, 02:05 AM
No, if I had things the way I wanted...then I would probably outlaw all religion in the U.S.



You're starting to sound like a dictator, or like Hitler. Instead of killing the Jews you want to rid the country of Christians. I'm glad you're not a good leader, or I may be in trouble.

Aikman_TheGreat
06-13-2012, 02:10 AM
When you say "god bless America" you are giving in to a higher power, a supernatural being who is in "control".

When you sing about god blessing America you are in some effect worshiping that God for blessing this country.

And BTW, if God really did exists, he's doing a VERY POOR JOB of "blessing" this country!

Ever think it is your fault, or mine, or other people's fault? Not God or someone else. Maybe other people need to take accountability for our actions? Do you expect God, or a god, or whatever it is to just let us do what we want and screw everything up, but fix things for us? Actually you probably do, and so does most of America, because that is what our government does.

In parks it says to not feed the animals because they could become dependent on us, yet we continue to feed and house others that will not work for what they need, so they become dependent. And thats ok for some reason. Corrupt businesses screw up and lose all of their assets but the government bails them out with my tax money.

ensbergcollector
06-13-2012, 02:13 AM
I will say this and it will probably be it for me. If someone says i just dont think god references should be in public schools i would be completely ok and probably agree. When people use words like we need protection from religion and our rights are being taken away by a song at a kindergarten graduation i get a little upset. That sounds to me like someone who is "out to get" religion.

Star- i believe you that it isnt about getting what you want. But when an atheist doesnt believe in any god and what they get is no god references, ultimately that is getting what they want.

Also, referencing an earlier post. Yes, all the supreme court justices claim a religion. Almost every politician does. It helps them get elected. Doesnt mean they have any care about religion. And if you dont think the constitution gets interpretted by whichever party controls the supreme court then you dont understand politics very well.

JustAlex
06-13-2012, 02:41 AM
LOL, I guess I'll be going to sleep late tonight....again :):


What an open minded individual. Do you see your posts?

Wow, way to take my comment out of context, did you not read the very next line?

"However, as much as I don't like religion, I realize it is hypocritical of me to say the above statement (Since I believe in freedom of expression), and so I am willing to COMPROMISE!"

Don't try to play tricks on me...


My main thing is that taking religion out of things like this isn't promoting my atheist belief. It's not an issue about getting what I or we want as atheists. It's about it being completely void of it al together. It's about not promoting any belief structure, christian, islamic, atheist, jewish, hindu and so on. People who want god out of things like this typically aren't doing it to promote their own beliefs instead. If they are then they are hypocrites.

Agreed, and this comment is basically what I've been saying since page 1...


Alex, I have a question for you. Why do you hate paragraphs? you always post a sentence and then double return. Just noticed that since you've been around and thought I'd mess with you a bit. lol

Well, I only do this in forums.

My reason is that by spacing out the sentences, it becomes easier to read and it also emphasizes my points, this is done for the readers.

I don't remember when I started doing it, but I do it in EVERY forum I discuss.

Funny enough, I also notice that I get quoted a lot more by typing this way....which is fine by me since I love debate.

JustAlex
06-13-2012, 02:51 AM
You also do realize that this is an online forum (even a sports card forum). Your not going to start some revival in America against religion as you seem to think in some of your posts.

The internet is perhaps the greatest invention in the history of mankind and it literally unites the world together in one place.

If you can not appreciate the power this holds, then you should really consider my own story.

I de-converted from Christianity in BECAUSE of the internet.

Because I would see debates between atheists and theists, and almost every single time, the atheists made a lot more sense (of course they only deal with reason and logic.)

The internet also made information so easily available and I was finally able to research evolution, abiogenesis and many other naturalistic claims which refute most of the bible. I saw that these claims were much better than "God did it"....and slowly but surely I abandoned my faith and joined the winning team!

LOL, I'm joking about the "winning team" comment, but I think you see what I'm trying to say.

So, am I trying to de-convert others?

NO....but I would like to see any skeptical thinkers truly evaluate their beliefs.

In some way I'm simply doing my part by speaking on behalf of the minority...


You're starting to sound like a dictator, or like Hitler. Instead of killing the Jews you want to rid the country of Christians. I'm glad you're not a good leader, or I may be in trouble.

Oh boy.....another person who has FAILED to see what I was trying to really say.

Please don't take my comments out of context, go back and properly read the NEXT sentence where I say that it would be HYPOCRITICAL of me to believe that way!

boba
06-13-2012, 02:58 AM
Second part doesnt take away what you said in the first.
You basically said you want to ban religion but are willing to compramise. Doesn't sound very open minded.



LOL, I guess I'll be going to sleep late tonight....again :):



Wow, way to take my comment out of context, did you not read the very next line?

"However, as much as I don't like religion, I realize it is hypocritical of me to say the above statement (Since I believe in freedom of expression), and so I am willing to COMPROMISE!"

Don't try to play tricks on me...



Agreed, and this comment is basically what I've been saying since page 1...



Well, I only do this in forums.

My reason is that by spacing out the sentences, it becomes easier to read and it also emphasizes my points, this is done for the readers.

I don't remember when I started doing it, but I do it in EVERY forum I discuss.

Funny enough, I also notice that I get quoted a lot more by typing this way....which is fine by me since I love debate.

Aikman_TheGreat
06-13-2012, 03:01 AM
Oh boy.....another person who has FAILED to see what I was trying to really say.

Please don't take my comments out of context, go back and properly read the NEXT sentence where I say that it would be HYPOCRITICAL of me to believe that way!

Just say what you are trying to say. Dont leave it to other people to take it out of context. But to say (or hint at) that you are not against christianity, and not just against it but you want to abolish it and everyone for it, you are lying. I can tell by your posts. Just come out and say it.

I'm not the type of christian to witness and spread the word (which is a flaw). I'm not going to force it on anyone, and if anyone asks I'll tell them what I know, and to NOT use me as an example because I have many, many flaws. So dont use your assumption of christians on me.

boba
06-13-2012, 03:02 AM
Dude, but why come to a sports card forum, get your 10 sports related comments in, then just post here. Did you get sick or banned from one of your p and r sites and then come here to fill the time?

Sorry, I know this is offtopic but I'm just saying what everyone else is thinking. And I'm really curious.



The internet is perhaps the greatest invention in the history of mankind and it literally unites the world together in one place.

If you can not appreciate the power this holds, then you should really consider my own story.

I de-converted from Christianity in BECAUSE of the internet.

Because I would see debates between atheists and theists, and almost every single time, the atheists made a lot more sense (of course they only deal with reason and logic.)

The internet also made information so easily available and I was finally able to research evolution, abiogenesis and many other naturalistic claims which refute most of the bible. I saw that these claims were much better than "God did it"....and slowly but surely I abandoned my faith and joined the winning team!

LOL, I'm joking about the "winning team" comment, but I think you see what I'm trying to say.

So, am I trying to de-convert others?

NO....but I would like to see any skeptical thinkers truly evaluate their beliefs.

In some way I'm simply doing my part by speaking on behalf of the minority...



Oh boy.....another person who has FAILED to see what I was trying to really say.

Please don't take my comments out of context, go back and properly read the NEXT sentence where I say that it would be HYPOCRITICAL of me to believe that way!

JustAlex
06-13-2012, 03:06 AM
LOL, wow....OK, I'll elaborate.

Am I anti-religion?.....YES.

Do I want to outlaw religion?.....NO, because it would be a contradiction of one of my other beliefs (Freedom of expression).

What I was trying to say is that if someone holds a position they should first consider that position to see whether or not it's really the correct position, even if they believe it's correct.

Would I like to see this nation become less religious.....ABSOLUTELY!

But Not at the expense of force because that conflicts with freedom of expression.

theonedru
06-13-2012, 03:13 AM
So how is forcing ones beliefs upon the masses o.k. but when people cry foul and want the playing field leveled that's wrong?

JustAlex
06-13-2012, 03:14 AM
Dude, but why come to a sports card forum, get your 10 sports related comments in, then just post here. Did you get sick or banned from one of your p and r sites and then come here to fill the time?

Sorry, I know this is offtopic but I'm just saying what everyone else is thinking.

Good question, and I'll be more than happy to respond.

I currently spend a good portion of my time (a lot of it at work....LOL!) on internet message boards.

Believe it or not....most of the ones I go to (For example Reddit) are very much anti-religion already, so there is no one for me to debate, if anything it's just "circle jerking" which I find boring.

I also watch many Blog TV debates between atheists and theists, there's a show called "The magic Sandwich show" which freely allows such debates.

I would recommend it to you, but I'm not sure how much you will like it, the host and panel are mostly atheists...

Anyways, I've always been a huge sports fan so I started joining various sites such as Blowout and SCF.

Blowout doesn't have a religion and politics forum, in fact they DISCOURAGE talking about it.

So that's why I came here, because this site freely allows political and religious discourse (which I've always liked to talk about).


And to my delight there are more christians than atheists on this forum, so it's always fun debating with you guys....:kiss:

boba
06-13-2012, 03:19 AM
Sounds good enouph Haha, just curious because you are an interesting member.:kiss:



Good question, and I'll be more than happy to respond.

I currently spend a good portion of my time (a lot of it at work....LOL!) on internet message boards.

Believe it or not....most of the ones I go to (For example Reddit) are very much anti-religion already, so there is no one for me to debate, if anything it's just "circle jerking" which I find boring.

I also watch many Blog TV debates between atheists and theists, there's a show called "The magic Sandwich show" which freely allows such debates.

I would recommend it to you, but I'm not sure how much you will like it, the host and panel are mostly atheists...

Anyways, I've always been a huge sports fan so I started joining various sites such as Blowout and SCF.

Blowout doesn't have a religion and politics forum, in fact they DISCOURAGE talking about it.

So that's why I came here, because this site freely allows political and religious discourse (which I've always liked to talk about).


And to my delight there are more christians that atheists on this forum, so it's always fun debating with you guys....:kiss:

Aikman_TheGreat
06-13-2012, 03:20 AM
LOL, wow....OK, I'll elaborate.

I'm I anti-religion.....YES.

Do I want to outlaw religion?.....NO, because it would be a contradiction of one of my other beliefs (Freedom of expression).

What I was trying to say is that if someone holds a position they should first consider that position to see whether or not it's really the correct position, even if they believe it's correct.

Would I like to see this nation become less religious.....ABSOLUTELY!

But Not at the expense of force because that conflicts with freedom of expression.

Well said.

As a christian man, and a rationalist. I do believe this nation was founded under God, but also with religious (or non religious) freedom. I do not, and will not, want to force my beliefs on another human. Some Christians do, and it makes a bad name for us. Thats how it is with every belief, religious or not religious. Believe what you will, but do not attack others for their beliefs or non-beliefs, because that makes you just as bad as those that force. Do not sum up everyone just because of the select few that are idiots (Westboro Baptist Church, plus others).

There really is a lot of attacking Christians on this board, and it's kind of sad. The Christians on this board do not attack others, or force their beliefs, so why attack us? I know there are a ton out there in society that do force beliefs, but thats every religion, party, or belief.

Rockman
06-13-2012, 03:50 AM
Well said.

As a christian man, and a rationalist. I do believe this nation was founded under God, but also with religious (or non religious) freedom. I do not, and will not, want to force my beliefs on another human. Some Christians do, and it makes a bad name for us. Thats how it is with every belief, religious or not religious. Believe what you will, but do not attack others for their beliefs or non-beliefs, because that makes you just as bad as those that force. Do not sum up everyone just because of the select few that are idiots (Westboro Baptist Church, plus others).

There really is a lot of attacking Christians on this board, and it's kind of sad. The Christians on this board do not attack others, or force their beliefs, so why attack us? I know there are a ton out there in society that do force beliefs, but thats every religion, party, or belief.


C'mon, you've been on this board long enough to know that's not true. Usually someone will come in for a couple months stir up trouble, end up getting a ton of infractions and get kicked out of P&R. Just because it hasn't been happening as frequently recently doesn't mean it's only a one way street.

Aikman_TheGreat
06-13-2012, 03:59 AM
C'mon, you've been on this board long enough to know that's not true. Usually someone will come in for a couple months stir up trouble, end up getting a ton of infractions and get kicked out of P&R. Just because it hasn't been happening as frequently recently doesn't mean it's only a one way street.

I've been on here since 2005. For awhile there were more right-wingers, for awhile there were more christians. Look at the thread names on the first page. They are against christians, or calling out christians, or just luring christians to say something wrong so that they can call them out on sin. I'm all for debate, I love debate. There is a difference in debate and just starting an argument. Me and OPTiger havent been Mods in awhile, and even when we were we put up with the likes of RedGoneWild. Red would sometimes "attack" in ways, but nothing like some of these new people. It goes in spurts politically (right or left), but religiously it's always against christians.

Rockman
06-13-2012, 04:10 AM
I've been on here since 2005. For awhile there were more right-wingers, for awhile there were more christians. Look at the thread names on the first page. They are against christians, or calling out christians, or just luring christians to say something wrong so that they can call them out on sin. I'm all for debate, I love debate. There is a difference in debate and just starting an argument. Me and OPTiger havent been Mods in awhile, and even when we were we put up with the likes of RedGoneWild. Red would sometimes "attack" in ways, but nothing like some of these new people. It goes in spurts politically (right or left), but religiously it's always against christians.

Eh, RGW was very very very tame compared to what goes on now, and I don't remember him being disrespectful to Christians, just loving Michael Phelps bong photo a little to much. I'll agree though, there def. has been a shift in topics the last few months, but I know over the years I've read things on here (from Christians, although it doesn't really matter) that haven't stuck well with me.

I'd go back and forth with you on this more, but then we would have the stupidest/pettiest argument in the history of P&R.... actually scratch that, this probably wouldn't even make the top 10.

Aikman_TheGreat
06-13-2012, 04:16 AM
Eh, RGW was very very very tame compared to what goes on now, and I don't remember him being disrespectful to Christians, just loving Michael Phelps bong photo a little to much. I'll agree though, there def. has been a shift in topics the last few months, but I know over the years I've read things on here (from Christians, although it doesn't really matter) that haven't stuck well with me.

I'd go back and forth with you on this more, but then we would have the stupidest/pettiest argument in the history of P&R.... actually scratch that, this probably wouldn't even make the top 10.

I'm with you on RGW, I wish he was still around. Problem was he had a few comments that got him banned, most of his comments were fine even if they stepped on toes. Nothing he said was as bad as what some have said on here lately. I just miss the days where we were all "cool" with each other and talked politics and religion, now it's just attack the other person. Heck, even i got a 3 point infraction one time haha.

mrveggieman
06-13-2012, 09:40 AM
Let me ask the group this. For the atheists would you be ok with the schools having students read out of the bible not for religious purposes but strictly for reading and educational purposes? Also to the christians would you be ok if schools used the koran or the egyptian book of the dead for the same purposes? Why or why not?

habsheaven
06-13-2012, 10:05 AM
Let me ask the group this. For the atheists would you be ok with the schools having students read out of the bible not for religious purposes but strictly for reading and educational purposes? Also to the christians would you be ok if schools used the koran or the egyptian book of the dead for the same purposes? Why or why not?

I would welcome readings from the bible in school if they were followed by OPEN discussion among the students.

mrveggieman
06-13-2012, 10:09 AM
I would welcome readings from the bible in school if they were followed by OPEN discussion among the students.


Agreed!

mrveggieman
06-13-2012, 10:13 AM
Eh, RGW was very very very tame compared to what goes on now, and I don't remember him being disrespectful to Christians, just loving Michael Phelps bong photo a little to much. I'll agree though, there def. has been a shift in topics the last few months, but I know over the years I've read things on here (from Christians, although it doesn't really matter) that haven't stuck well with me.

I'd go back and forth with you on this more, but then we would have the stupidest/pettiest argument in the history of P&R.... actually scratch that, this probably wouldn't even make the top 10.


I looked at redgonewild's profile and his ebay listing is still connected here. Looking at some of the stuff he is selling he really needs to come up off his HIGH horse. :pound::pound::pound:

Star_Cards
06-13-2012, 10:15 AM
Well, I only do this in forums.

My reason is that by spacing out the sentences, it becomes easier to read and it also emphasizes my points, this is done for the readers.

I don't remember when I started doing it, but I do it in EVERY forum I discuss.

Funny enough, I also notice that I get quoted a lot more by typing this way....which is fine by me since I love debate.

just messing with you a bit. :) Just an odd way of reading posts for me. no big deal. :)

Star_Cards
06-13-2012, 10:23 AM
Well said.

As a christian man, and a rationalist. I do believe this nation was founded under God, but also with religious (or non religious) freedom. I do not, and will not, want to force my beliefs on another human. Some Christians do, and it makes a bad name for us. Thats how it is with every belief, religious or not religious. Believe what you will, but do not attack others for their beliefs or non-beliefs, because that makes you just as bad as those that force. Do not sum up everyone just because of the select few that are idiots (Westboro Baptist Church, plus others).

There really is a lot of attacking Christians on this board, and it's kind of sad. The Christians on this board do not attack others, or force their beliefs, so why attack us? I know there are a ton out there in society that do force beliefs, but thats every religion, party, or belief.

As a whole, I don't think there are any more "attacks" towards christians than there are "attacks" towards liberals, conservatives, atheist, muslims and so on. I express my opinions and they tend to go against most religious views depending on the topic. I disagree with you that christians on this board do not think their beliefs should be forced on the masses. There are posts that state as much. If a person uses their religious belief to justify a sweeping legislation against every citizen in our country that is in fact forcing their religious beliefs.

shooten
06-13-2012, 10:28 AM
it offends people that your not doing it does that not count??

Star_Cards
06-13-2012, 10:33 AM
Let me ask the group this. For the atheists would you be ok with the schools having students read out of the bible not for religious purposes but strictly for reading and educational purposes? Also to the christians would you be ok if schools used the koran or the egyptian book of the dead for the same purposes? Why or why not?

I actually see a lot of benefit to teaching religion in schools as a historical type of thing and not teaching the religion as it is in church. With that would come teaching of all major religions. I think it would help increase tolerance between people as it would help people to understand all of the diversity there is in the religious world... and yes this course I speak of would also include atheism. I see it more like a philosophy like course. It doesn't endorse one type religion but gives the facts and they can be discussed in an open forum.

Here's the big issue... when most christians say they want religion taught in school they do not typically mean they want a course that teaches about all major religions and certainly not atheism. They usually speak of only teaching christianity in a more sermon style as if everyone was christian. Most people that say they are for religion studies in school would completely flip out if they said... okay we will teach religion but it will also include islam, hinduism, judaism, buddism, and atheism. The typical religious american would consider this some sort of war on christianity.

Star_Cards
06-13-2012, 10:34 AM
it offends people that your not doing it does that not count??

I'm not sure what this is in reference to.

Star_Cards
06-13-2012, 10:39 AM
I looked at redgonewild's profile and his ebay listing is still connected here. Looking at some of the stuff he is selling he really needs to come up off his HIGH horse. :pound::pound::pound:

lol. just looked myself.

I played "one of these things is not like the other". The answer was the Friday the 13th DVD.

shrewsbury
06-13-2012, 12:10 PM
[QUOTE]I actually see a lot of benefit to teaching religion in schools as a historical type of thing and not teaching the religion as it is in church. With that would come teaching of all major religions. I think it would help increase tolerance between people as it would help people to understand all of the diversity there is in the religious world... and yes this course I speak of would also include atheism. I see it more like a philosophy like course. It doesn't endorse one type religion but gives the facts and they can be discussed in an open forum.[QUOTE]

agreed

JustAlex
06-13-2012, 09:41 PM
I would welcome readings from the bible in school if they were followed by OPEN discussion among the students.

BINGO!

Not just discussion but well formulated scrutiny on any and ALL issues that are in the bible.

However, I believe the class should have to be an "Elective" not a regular curriculum class.

tutall
06-13-2012, 10:23 PM
Arent those classes already taught? I live in the bible belt and had a history class on world religions... We didnt cover half of them obviously but covered the main stream ones across the world... I guess I assumed these would be taught everywhere.

Gorillawits
06-13-2012, 10:32 PM
Does this mean "secular humanism" is going to be banned from schools? That is a religion based on a faith that there is no God. Big bang is accepted as the creator by most secularists and big bang created us through macro-evolution.

Logic is a relgious doctrine that comes from the teachings of Socrates. It tells people there is no God, so do what you feel like. Is logic going to be banned as well?

JustAlex
06-13-2012, 10:48 PM
Does this mean "secular humanism" is going to be banned from schools? That is a religion based on a faith that there is no God.
You seem not to understand the difference between REAL religion and philosophy.

Secular Humanism embraces human reason, ethics, and social justice while specifically rejecting religious dogma, supernaturalism, pseudoscience or superstition as the basis of morality and decision-making.

How in the world do you believe that ^this is religion?


Big bang is accepted as the creator by most secularists and big bang created us through macro-evolution.

Wrong!

The Big Bang is a theory of how the universe EXPANDED into what it is today.

We still have many unknown answers about our universe the main difference between science and religion is that Science is still searching for answers whereas religion has already made up it's mind.

Also, how in the world did "The Big Bang created us through macro-evolution"?

there is not ONE science book that says that.

Let me quickly explain:

Big Bang A cosmological theory on the EXPANSION of the Universe..

Abiogenesis A theory on how life began on our world through a natural process which took BILLIONS of years to occur......to be perfectly honest this is still a theory in practice and we still don't know how exactly it happened.

Evolution The Diversification of ALL species through Natural Selection.


All of these theories have evidence to support it, to be perfectly honest again, abiogenesis is not very strong.....however the Theory of Evolution is basically FACT, and nowadays 99.9% of Scientists agree evolution is true.


Logic is a relgious doctrine that comes from the teachings of Socrates. It tells people there is no God, so do what you feel like. Is logic going to be banned as well?

What?

Logic is religious doctrine????

I don't even know how to respond to that....so I won't.

ensbergcollector
06-13-2012, 11:35 PM
BINGO!

Not just discussion but well formulated scrutiny on any and ALL issues that are in the bible.

However, I believe the class should have to be an "Elective" not a regular curriculum class.

ok, so basically you are ok with religion being talked about as long as the teacher blasts holes in religion and bashes it?

JustAlex
06-13-2012, 11:53 PM
ok, so basically you are ok with religion being talked about as long as the teacher blasts holes in religion and bashes it?

Where did I say that the teacher should do that?

I said the Students should have open discussions and scrutiny at the bible.

For example they read Genesis....

At the end they can have a discussion about how the Bible says the world was created in 6 days, but all physical evidence shows that the earth is billions of years old.

Then we could go further into this....for example some Theologians say that Genesis is NOT literal but allegorical.

Maybe Genesis 1 was a way for the ancients to understand something they didn't know.

BTW, this is how ALL mythology works.

Just look at Greek Mythology, they thought Lightning was the cause of Zeus being angry and throwing lightning bolts from Mt. Olympus.

They didn't understand how lightning worked, so they used supernatural explanations to try to make sense of it.

When sailors would encounter sea storms, this was obviously Poseidon's anger, and so on.


I believe the bible works the same way, the Ancient people in the middle east did not understand how the world works.

So they made up supernatural claims:

How was the world created? God made it in 6 days.

How was man created? God made him in his image (This implies God has a Human image)

Why does the world have so many different languages? Because of the tower of babel.

Why are humans evil? Because of the Devil.


Don't you see that the Bible does the same thing that Greek mythology did?

ensbergcollector
06-14-2012, 12:06 AM
you basically just showed that what i posted is exactly what you would want. yes, you say the students should but the teacher is teaching the class.

you think they should be able to read from the bible as long as the purpose is to debunk the bible and teach kids that it is stupid and wrong. awesome

beachboy22
06-14-2012, 12:53 AM
Alex-

You definitly just furthered and proved what Ensbergcollector said and that you believe its ok to talk about, as long as it is ripped apart and everything in it is said to be wrong and kids be taught its all false. You clearly think everything in the Bible is wrong because you used all caps for all when you said "any and ALL issues that are in the Bible"

Also from the rest of this thread it has seemed you are a Bible/Religion basher, who thinks religion is the #1 evil in the world and all christians are out to get you!

Then when someone calls you out about it you deny it, then you give reasoning and posts that just add more evidence to this thought that you think religion is out to get you!

I personally do not think it should be banned, or any reference to God or religion removed from anything it is in such as the pledge. Our country was founded on Christian beliefs and people can choose not to say something if they dont want to because it refrences God! Thats the beauty of this country, we have the right to not say something if we want, or to say anything we want!

Just my 2 cents from reading all of the thread! I have found it to be interesting to see how everyone feels abut the issue!

JustAlex
06-14-2012, 02:32 AM
Alex-

You definitly just furthered and proved what Ensbergcollector said and that you believe its ok to talk about, as long as it is ripped apart and everything in it is said to be wrong and kids be taught its all false. You clearly think everything in the Bible is wrong because you used all caps for all when you said "any and ALL issues that are in the Bible"

All I said is that if there was a "Bible class" I would be alright with it as long as it could be discussed and scrutinized, just like we do with History class.

Do we not discuss and scrutinize World History?

When any other religion outside of Christianity is mentioned in school, do we not scrutinize that?

YES, WE DO!

I believe the Bible should be scrutinized as well....

It's not my fault the bible says things that are Anti-Science, and it's not my fault it says many things that are very hard to believe.


Also from the rest of this thread it has seemed you are a Bible/Religion basher, who thinks religion is the #1 evil in the world and all christians are out to get you!

Yes, I am Anti-religion but I think my "bashing" is done from a logical perspective and I by no means ever insult any other member on here.


Then when someone calls you out about it you deny it, then you give reasoning and posts that just add more evidence to this thought that you think religion is out to get you!

Um, whenever someone calls me out here, I usually respond, just like I'm responding to you.

If I say something where I was wrong I will usually say I'm wrong.

Fine, ensbergcollector said I proved his point......his point was that I would be in favor of bible class only if it gets "Bashed".....I DON'T SEE IT THAT WAY.

I don't think scrutiny and discussion = Bashing.

Bashing would entail using insults and being closed minded, I never said I wanted that.


I personally do not think it should be banned, or any reference to God or religion removed from anything it is in such as the pledge. Our country was founded on Christian beliefs and people can choose not to say something if they dont want to because it refrences God! Thats the beauty of this country, we have the right to not say something if we want, or to say anything we want!

I do not believe this country was "founded on Christian beliefs".

And the Constitution is clearly secular, not christian.

Also, I would refer to this link, to support my belief that this country was NOT founded on christian beliefs:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm

Just look at this line from the Treaty of Tripoli:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

ensbergcollector
06-14-2012, 02:43 AM
No, we do not scrutinize world history or other religions. In fact, in a large number of history classes, all religions but christianity are given space and time in a purely "this is what they believe" format. We treat nothing in school the way that you say the bible should be dealt with.

JustAlex
06-14-2012, 02:59 AM
No, we do not scrutinize world history or other religions. In fact, in a large number of history classes, all religions but christianity are given space and time in a purely "this is what they believe" format. We treat nothing in school the way that you say the bible should be dealt with.
I don't think so...

For example World War II.

We discuss the merits and flaws of how the U.S handled it.

Examples of merits:

They needed to go to war after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.
They needed to help the allies in Europe.
D-Day was very important in the eventual success of bringing down the Nazis.


Examples of possible flaws:

Maybe the U.S should have entered WWII earlier, maybe this way they would not have been attacked the way they were in Pearl Harbor.
Maybe the U.S should NOT have dropped the 2 atomic bombs in Japan, maybe there was a better way to end that conflict.


When we discuss History we look at things in an OBJECTIVE way (at least I hope we do) and the purpose of teaching History is to learn from our mistakes and to NOT repeat them.

I remember 11th grade U.S History, we constantly had discussion about how the U.S has handled being a country ever since 1776.

The U.S has done TERRIBLE things such as slavery for 200 years, but they have also had GREAT moments such as D-Day.

The point is we DON'T turn a blind eye to the terrible things the U.S has done or for that matter any other country in the aspect of history.

WE DO Scrutinize History and not doing so would only leave humans to repeat it.


From my personal experience, I went to a High School that did have discussion of all the major wars and politics as well.

And I believe students learn a lot more on history and our country when they are free to discuss and scrutinize this country's achievements and failings.

Gorillawits
06-14-2012, 03:49 AM
You seem not to understand the difference between REAL religion and philosophy.

Secular Humanism embraces human reason, ethics, and social justice while specifically rejecting religious dogma, supernaturalism, pseudoscience or superstition as the basis of morality and decision-making.

How in the world do you believe that ^this is religion?



Wrong!

The Big Bang is a theory of how the universe EXPANDED into what it is today.

We still have many unknown answers about our universe the main difference between science and religion is that Science is still searching for answers whereas religion has already made up it's mind.

Also, how in the world did "The Big Bang created us through macro-evolution"?

there is not ONE science book that says that.

Let me quickly explain:

Big Bang A cosmological theory on the EXPANSION of the Universe..

Abiogenesis A theory on how life began on our world through a natural process which took BILLIONS of years to occur......to be perfectly honest this is still a theory in practice and we still don't know how exactly it happened.

Evolution The Diversification of ALL species through Natural Selection.


All of these theories have evidence to support it, to be perfectly honest again, abiogenesis is not very strong.....however the Theory of Evolution is basically FACT, and nowadays 99.9% of Scientists agree evolution is true.



What?

Logic is religious doctrine????

I don't even know how to respond to that....so I won't.


The whole purpose of Secular Humanism is to say "there is no God, do what you feel like". It made up to justify doing evil and breaking God's laws.

So you are saying big bang was not the creator of the universe? Then who is?

tutall
06-14-2012, 08:53 AM
I don't think so...

For example World War II.

We discuss the merits and flaws of how the U.S handled it.

Examples of merits:

They needed to go to war after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor.
They needed to help the allies in Europe.
D-Day was very important in the eventual success of bringing down the Nazis.


Examples of possible flaws:

Maybe the U.S should have entered WWII earlier, maybe this way they would not have been attacked the way they were in Pearl Harbor.
Maybe the U.S should NOT have dropped the 2 atomic bombs in Japan, maybe there was a better way to end that conflict.


When we discuss History we look at things in an OBJECTIVE way (at least I hope we do) and the purpose of teaching History is to learn from our mistakes and to NOT repeat them.

I remember 11th grade U.S History, we constantly had discussion about how the U.S has handled being a country ever since 1776.

The U.S has done TERRIBLE things such as slavery for 200 years, but they have also had GREAT moments such as D-Day.

The point is we DON'T turn a blind eye to the terrible things the U.S has done or for that matter any other country in the aspect of history.

WE DO Scrutinize History and not doing so would only leave humans to repeat it.


From my personal experience, I went to a High School that did have discussion of all the major wars and politics as well.

And I believe students learn a lot more on history and our country when they are free to discuss and scrutinize this country's achievements and failings.

You are not comparing apples to apples... You are trying to disprove the bible and saying we should have handled some situations different in the past... What would be a correlation is if you were saying people in the bible should have handled situations differently... What you are saying though would be the same as saying WW1 didnt happen and here is the evidence we have saying it didnt happen. If you want to say Noah should have used a life raft instead of an ark that would be the same as saying history could have taken a different turn

JustAlex
06-14-2012, 09:42 AM
The whole purpose of Secular Humanism is to say "there is no God, do what you feel like". It made up to justify doing evil and breaking God's laws.

No, that's not true at all.

I posted the definition and the purpose of Secular Humanism and it's not to "Do what you feel like", or to be "evil and break god's law".

It's crazy to think that a HUMANIST would want to be "evil", that's a direct contradiction to what the word is defined as.



You are not comparing apples to apples... You are trying to disprove the bible and saying we should have handled some situations different in the past... What would be a correlation is if you were saying people in the bible should have handled situations differently... What you are saying though would be the same as saying WW1 didnt happen and here is the evidence we have saying it didnt happen. If you want to say Noah should have used a life raft instead of an ark that would be the same as saying history could have taken a different turn

I'll admit, you bring up a good point.

However, I think my main purpose was saying that we can discuss and scrutinize history without distorting what it actually is.

Again, if we read Genesis 1, we could have a discussion about it to properly understand what it's trying to tell us.

I believe that many churches and religion in general DO NOT DO THIS and thus they hold a dogmatic belief when evidence against it is presented.

I mean C'mon.....what harm is there in scrutinizing the bible?

Maybe your faith can grow bigger if you discover that the bible really is saying the truth.....or you can discover that what's in the bible might be allegorical and not literal.

One thing is for sure, if you allow proper discussion one of these two things will happen, and if you TRULY believe that the Bible is real and it is truly the word of God, then you shouldn't be opposed to this.

You should believe that even if a christian scrutinizes the bible his faith will grow bigger.

Or are you scared that if a christian scrutinizes the bible (the way I did) he/she will lose his/her faith and turn into an atheist (the way I did)?

Star_Cards
06-14-2012, 09:45 AM
I personally do not think it should be banned, or any reference to God or religion removed from anything it is in such as the pledge. Our country was founded on Christian beliefs and people can choose not to say something if they dont want to because it refrences God! Thats the beauty of this country, we have the right to not say something if we want, or to say anything we want!

Just my 2 cents from reading all of the thread! I have found it to be interesting to see how everyone feels abut the issue!

it really goes further then an individual being able to say what he wants or what he doesn't want. It's more about a government ran institution endorsing one religion over another when we live in a country that was founded on freedom of religion.

mrveggieman
06-14-2012, 10:48 AM
I think that schools should give students the option to take classes that have religious readings and the bible should be held to the same standards and levels of scrutiny that any other historic writings or religious doctrines should be. It seems like some people want to protect the bible for fear if there is open and honest discussion about what is written in it their entire viewpoint will change and they are very afraid of that. If the bible or any other religious doctrine that one goes by is indeed true, error free and the true word of God it should have no problem whatsoever being scrutinizied and reviewed in an objective and unbiased matter.

ensbergcollector
06-14-2012, 11:09 AM
I think that schools should give students the option to take classes that have religious readings and the bible should be held to the same standards and levels of scrutiny that any other historic writings or religious doctrines should be. It seems like some people want to protect the bible for fear if there is open and honest discussion about what is written in it their entire viewpoint will change and they are very afraid of that. If the bible or any other religious doctrine that one goes by is indeed true, error free and the true word of God it should have no problem whatsoever being scrutinizied and reviewed in an objective and unbiased matter.

i don't think anyone has a problem with actual scrutiny. The problem is that classes would end up with teachers like alex here and instead of scrutiny it would be treated as a chance to root out religion at it's source. our country is already full of professors at the college level is take pride and joy in seeing how many christians they can de-convert. nothing that alex wrote is actual scrutiny but instead is a slam campaign by someone who by their own words would rather religion didn't exist.

shrewsbury
06-14-2012, 11:13 AM
veggie, i agree.

when it comes to historical, geographical, military strategy, and even rulers in antiquity the bible is easy to study, research, and debate upon. it is when we enter the supernatural and/or miracles when things go south.

science can not duplicate miracles of god and thus are deemed to be false. some will even try to use science and natural occurances to explain the unexplanable, but they fall short and are still impossible to prove. such as the parting of the red sea. we will see explanation like translation of the original hebrew can be read as the sea of reeds, making it a low water or swampy area, rather than a sea, we also see wind set back and tides as a way of explaining what happened.

if we remove god and the miracles from the OT or NT then we take away everything the bible was meant to teach us, which is faith.

mrveggieman
06-14-2012, 11:26 AM
i don't think anyone has a problem with actual scrutiny. The problem is that classes would end up with teachers like alex here and instead of scrutiny it would be treated as a chance to root out religion at it's source. our country is already full of professors at the college level is take pride and joy in seeing how many christians they can de-convert. nothing that alex wrote is actual scrutiny but instead is a slam campaign by someone who by their own words would rather religion didn't exist.


I agree that there are people who are anti-christanity, just like they are people who are anti islam, or anti-atheism. If a teacher is hired to teach a class in an objective and unbiased matter and only wants to push their own agenda they should be fired.

Star_Cards
06-14-2012, 11:38 AM
i don't think anyone has a problem with actual scrutiny. The problem is that classes would end up with teachers like alex here and instead of scrutiny it would be treated as a chance to root out religion at it's source. our country is already full of professors at the college level is take pride and joy in seeing how many christians they can de-convert. nothing that alex wrote is actual scrutiny but instead is a slam campaign by someone who by their own words would rather religion didn't exist.

or the classes could just as easily end up with teachers who are very religious and and instead of scrutiny it would be treated as a chance to preach. I could see it going both ways. I think a class like this would end up being a disaster. Wen it comes down to it, I doubt they would be too many happy parties no matter what side of the religion coin you are on.

Makes me wonder what percentages of college professors are christian and what are not.

Star_Cards
06-14-2012, 11:41 AM
I agree that there are people who are anti-christanity, just like they are people who are anti islam, or anti-atheism. If a teacher is hired to teach a class in an objective and unbiased matter and only wants to push their own agenda they should be fired.

I had a philosophy professor in college and he said on the first day that by the end of the class we would have no clue what his personal opinions on any of these topics were. He sort of challenged us to try to figure it out. I wish I would have taken that class much closer to the age I am now. At the time I was pretty focused on my core graphic design classes and skated by the other stuff. I was always impressed that his plan was to teach us about the different philosophies rather than try to get us to follow his views... or even tell us his views to keep us from telling him what we thought he'd want to hear in class.

mrveggieman
06-14-2012, 12:10 PM
I had a philosophy professor in college and he said on the first day that by the end of the class we would have no clue what his personal opinions on any of these topics were. He sort of challenged us to try to figure it out. I wish I would have taken that class much closer to the age I am now. At the time I was pretty focused on my core graphic design classes and skated by the other stuff. I was always impressed that his plan was to teach us about the different philosophies rather than try to get us to follow his views... or even tell us his views to keep us from telling him what we thought he'd want to hear in class.


Yeah my philosphy teacher in college was catholic I believe but she was pretty cool and kept her own personal biases out of the classroom. It's too bad there are not more teachers like ours.

JustAlex
06-14-2012, 01:25 PM
our country is already full of professors at the college level is take pride and joy in seeing how many christians they can de-convert.

LOL....I don't know where you get this but as a person who was in college just months ago, I would disagree.

Although if this really was happening in the U.S.....I probably wouldn't be against it....yeah, I know, big shock. :o:

Star_Cards
06-14-2012, 01:31 PM
LOL....I don't know where you get this but as a person who was in college just months ago, I would disagree.

Although if this really was happening in the U.S.....I probably wouldn't be against it....yeah, I know, big shock. :o:

I never had a professor that I felt was pushing his opinions or agenda in the classroom. There have been some stories about some professors that have, but I find it hard to believe that it's the norm. From my experience in college it certainly was not.

mrveggieman
06-14-2012, 01:51 PM
It really depends on the college. If you go to a more conservative college like liberty univ in lynchburg, va the professors will more than likely push their christian agenda.

ensbergcollector
06-14-2012, 03:06 PM
just from second hand experience (college students I know personally) i have more stories then I care to count from 5-6 colleges just within a state or two. these are all states that are traditionally more conservative so that doesn't even mention schools and states that are traditionally more liberal.

JustAlex
06-14-2012, 09:43 PM
Um, it depends what the class is...

For example if it's a BIOLOGY class then yes, I would expect a professor to say something like:

"Evolution is demonstrably true and we'll be learning about that in this class, I hope everyone here can understand that 99.9% of Life Scientists accept Evolution to be true and we will NOT be discussing 'intelligent design' or 'creationism' since those things are NOT science or accepted by any reputable scientists."

Yeah, I could expect something like that and I hope that Biology professors ARE making this clear.

And when it comes to most science classes including Physics, I would HOPE that professors are NOT allowing any biblical beliefs to interfere with the REAL world.

Science doesn't dwell in the Supernatural world, keep both parties separate from each other.

theonedru
06-14-2012, 11:22 PM
Um, it depends what the class is...

For example if it's a BIOLOGY class then yes, I would expect a professor to say something like:

"Evolution is demonstrably true and we'll be learning about that in this class, I hope everyone here can understand that 99.9% of Life Scientists accept Evolution to be true and we will NOT be discussing 'intelligent design' or 'creationism' since those things are NOT science or accepted by any reputable scientists."

Yeah, I could expect something like that and I hope that Biology professors ARE making this clear.

And when it comes to most science classes including Physics, I would HOPE that professors are NOT allowing any biblical beliefs to interfere with the REAL world.

Science doesn't dwell in the Supernatural world, keep both parties separate from each other.

So you want your beliefs to be forced upon to others who may not agree with said theories .. That's just a little discriminatory they should be fielded equally without malice.

DJ Sportscards
06-14-2012, 11:30 PM
Wow.... This one of the most Un-American threads I have ever seen!! You want to get rid of the pledge because god is in it?? Are you kidding me!! I hate to see what my son will have to deal with in the future....

theonedru
06-14-2012, 11:45 PM
Wow.... This one of the most Un-American threads I have ever seen!! You want to get rid of the pledge because god is in it?? Are you kidding me!! I hate to see what my son will have to deal with in the future....

Just because this thread is what it is does not make it UN-American.

DJ Sportscards
06-14-2012, 11:58 PM
Just because this thread is what it is does not make it UN-American.

Taking out the NATIONAL anthem for it having god in it doesn't make it un-american? I don't think i could stand by anyone trying to take the national anthem out of our country! It is one of the few things we have left to stand by! We Should be celebrating 200 years from the War of 1812 when written, but we are talking about removing it?? I mean you can't be serious.....

drtom2005
06-15-2012, 12:18 AM
no, it is your language that is full of caps lock and exclamation points. your language of this seeming war that non-christians need to rage against those oppressive christians.

the language the teacher is getting in the comments section are ridiculous and wrong 100%.

want to show me where separation of church and state is in the constitution? oh yeah, that's right, it isn't in there.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

feel free to argue all the stuff you are spewing based in that sentence.

The public funds a public school. Therefore, it is an extension of the governement. James Madison(one of the fathers of the Constitution) on the sepration of church and state.

In a letter to Edward Livingston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Livingston) Madison further expanded, "We are teaching the world the great truth that Govts. do better without Kings & Nobles than with them. The merit will be doubled by the other lesson that Religion flourishes in greater purity, without than with the aid of Govt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state

This amendement protects everyone's rights to believe what they want to believe. It also stops the government from endorsing any religous belief. Since a public school is an extension of the government, it should not endorse any religous belief.

If anyone wants to say we shouldn't teach evolution, wait a second. This is a scientific theory and has no basis in religion. It is a fact in the common vernacular. You do not have to believe it, but will not likely go far in any scientific field. I thought schools were suppose to prepare kids for the future. For a kid to get a good career in science, they need to know about evolution and know it is true. There is too much evidence.

JustAlex
06-15-2012, 12:24 AM
So you want your beliefs to be forced upon to others who may not agree with said theories .. That's just a little discriminatory they should be fielded equally without malice.

No, I never said force, and school doesn't work that way.

We don't force kids to accept 2+2=4, we teach them that this is so because it is demonstrably true.

When you go to school you are learning and being educated, at the end of the day it is up to you to evaluate everything you have been told and to decide whether or not you also believe it to be true.


Wow.... This one of the most Un-American threads I have ever seen!! You want to get rid of the pledge because god is in it?? Are you kidding me!! I hate to see what my son will have to deal with in the future....

I argued that "One nation under god" should be taken out, but for the most part I'm Ok with the pledge staying.

theonedru
06-15-2012, 05:44 AM
No, I never said force, and school doesn't work that way.

We don't force kids to accept 2+2=4, we teach them that this is so because it is demonstrably true.

When you go to school you are learning and being educated, at the end of the day it is up to you to evaluate everything you have been told and to decide whether or not you also believe it to be true.

Then you agree both sides should be taught equally without prejudice..

JustAlex
06-15-2012, 05:58 AM
Then you agree both sides should be taught equally without prejudice..

No, because both sides are NOT true.

For example:

2+2=4

2+2=5

Only one of these is true, and only one these can be proven to be true.

Kids don't get to decide on matters such as this.

Like I said in my previous comment, we teach things that can be proven or have some evidence to them.

Things such as "Intelligent Design" can not be proven with the scientific method and thus it has no place in school.


There's no reason to have "the other side", because the other side doesn't have a valid argument.

2+2=/=5

Intelligent Design =/= science

theonedru
06-15-2012, 06:07 AM
No, because both sides are NOT true.

For example:

2+2=4

2+2=5

Only one of these is true, and only one these can be proven to be true.

Kids don't get to decide on matters such as this.

Like I said in my previous comment, we teach things that can be proven or have some evidence to them.

Things such as "Intelligent Design" can not be proven with the scientific method and thus it has no place in school.


There's no reason to have "the other side", because the other side doesn't have a valid argument.

2+2=/=5

Intelligent Design =/= science

So you are in favor of forcing your views upon others who may have other beliefs then.......

theonedru
06-15-2012, 06:09 AM
Besides numbers are purely conceptual you can make them out to be whatever you want them to be so using a math argument to cement your point doesn't work........

JustAlex
06-15-2012, 06:23 AM
So you are in favor of forcing your views upon others who may have other beliefs then.......

My "views" are consistent with reality, evidence, proof, and observations....in other words The scientific method.

But again, I don't believe we are "Forcing" any "biased views" on anyone.


Besides numbers are purely conceptual you can make them out to be whatever you want them to be so using a math argument to cement your point doesn't work........

OK, fair enough......I used a simple math problem to quickly demonstrate how both sides are NOT true.

But I CAN use it for other things.


Side A: Gravity explains why the earth rotates around the sun, here is the evidence.........

Side B: God is currently rotating the earth around the sun, we don't have any physical evidence for this, but please take our word for it.


Now, which side do you think is OBJECTIVELY fair to teach?

Which side is "forcing" beliefs?

And Which side is using actual physical proof?

mrveggieman
06-15-2012, 10:01 AM
Since a public school is an extension of the government, it should not endorse any religous belief.




CHURCH!! :love0030::love0030::love0030:

Star_Cards
06-15-2012, 10:48 AM
Wow.... This one of the most Un-American threads I have ever seen!! You want to get rid of the pledge because god is in it?? Are you kidding me!! I hate to see what my son will have to deal with in the future....

I don't think anyone said to get rid of the pledge. It's about the word god. we aren't one nation under god. we are one nation free to believe freely in any god or no god.

Star_Cards
06-15-2012, 10:51 AM
Taking out the NATIONAL anthem for it having god in it doesn't make it un-american? I don't think i could stand by anyone trying to take the national anthem out of our country! It is one of the few things we have left to stand by! We Should be celebrating 200 years from the War of 1812 when written, but we are talking about removing it?? I mean you can't be serious.....

does the national anthem even reference God? I wasn't aware that it did, at least not the first verse that we know as the national anthem.

mrveggieman
06-15-2012, 10:52 AM
I don't think anyone said to get rid of the pledge. It's about the word god. we aren't one nation under god. we are one nation free to believe freely in any god or no god.


On the cool it wouldn't bother me if they did get rid of the pledge. I worship God not the flag. I have always wondered why most religious people do not see patriotism as a form of idolotry.

Star_Cards
06-15-2012, 11:01 AM
On the cool it wouldn't bother me if they did get rid of the pledge. I worship God not the flag. I have always wondered why most religious freedom do not see patriotism as a form of idolotry.

I never saw the pledge as worshipping. I guess maybe because when I said it I was way too young to really think about what it meant. I just knew that we said it every day and it was our routine. After you say it that many times it kind of loses meaning, if it really had any at the time. Kids are worried about many other things than actually worrying about what the pledge says. For me it was more of a going through the motions sort of thing since we said it every day. Now I have no need to say the pledge and find it sort of odd that they make school kids recite it every day... if they even still do that?

For me I see patriotism as more of a unity or pride thing than idolotry. I can see where in some countries where their freedoms are much more limited that it can cross the line to idoltry or even a type of religion, but I don't get that sense about it here in the united states.

mrveggieman
06-15-2012, 11:09 AM
Correction I meant to say people not freedom. I apologize for the typo.

ffman
06-15-2012, 03:06 PM
No, because both sides are NOT true.

For example:

2+2=4

2+2=5

Only one of these is true, and only one these can be proven to be true.

Kids don't get to decide on matters such as this.

Like I said in my previous comment, we teach things that can be proven or have some evidence to them.

Things such as "Intelligent Design" can not be proven with the scientific method and thus it has no place in school.


There's no reason to have "the other side", because the other side doesn't have a valid argument.

2+2=/=5

Intelligent Design =/= science

YOU think God/Christianity is not true. There is no scientific proof God does not exist.

Religion is a thing of faith; you can't "disprove" it.

habsheaven
06-15-2012, 03:32 PM
YOU think God/Christianity is not true. There is no scientific proof God does not exist.

Religion is a thing of faith; you can't "disprove" it.

No, but you can make a pretty good educated guess that many of the things associated with religion are false.

tutall
06-15-2012, 09:15 PM
No, I never said force, and school doesn't work that way.
We don't force kids to accept 2+2=4, we teach them that this is so because it is demonstrably true.

When you go to school you are learning and being educated, at the end of the day it is up to you to evaluate everything you have been told and to decide whether or not you also believe it to be true.



I argued that "One nation under god" should be taken out, but for the most part I'm Ok with the pledge staying.

That my friend is incorrect... Children think teachers are the end all be all, judge, jury, and executioner... Whatever you tell a 6th grader as a teacher is golden. I have a little league team that I am pretty sure I could convince the outfield grass is actually red instead of green if I tell them enough. This is why I have an issue with anything controversial being taught in lower grades through maybe the last couple years of high school because one teacher can do some damage.... I dont care if it is religion or anything else where lines have been drawn. Anyone under the age of say... 14 or 15 will listen to what they are told and not do research to prove otherwise...

theonedru
06-15-2012, 09:36 PM
My "views" are consistent with reality, evidence, proof, and observations....in other words The scientific method.

But again, I don't believe we are "Forcing" any "biased views" on anyone.

OK, fair enough......I used a simple math problem to quickly demonstrate how both sides are NOT true.

Math ... Math... numbers .. They have no beginning and no ending so how can they exist within reality? They and everything to do with them are purely conceptual .... Math ... Time, distance ... All numeric all mumbo jumbo.

So your views are slightly jilted if you really study them and not heavily based on reality if your going to come at me with math....

JustAlex
06-15-2012, 09:46 PM
Math ... Math... numbers .. They have no beginning and no ending so how can they exist within reality? They and everything to do with them are purely conceptual .... Math ... Time, distance ... All numeric all mumbo jumbo.

So your views are slightly jilted if you really study them and not heavily based on reality if your going to come at me with math....

OK, I already let go of the math example.

Did you see my gravity example?

I could use the example on EVERYTHING, history, English, literature, drama, any subject you want.

The point is we are NOT going to teach something that can be proven along side something that CAN'T be proven.

I know you're trying to make a point, but how can you justify religion in school when you know perfectly that religion is not based on evidence.


If you want to say that "My views" are being forced on school....fine believe that if you wish.

But this is the way people are educated....with FACTS, not faith or untestable religious doctrine.


It's ridiculous to tell a child that everything is "God did it" when we already HAVE facts that refute those claims!

theonedru
06-15-2012, 09:53 PM
OK, I already let go of the math example.

Did you see my gravity example?

I could use the example on EVERYTHING, history, English, literature, drama, any subject you want.

The point is we are NOT going to teach something that can be proven along side something that CAN'T be proven.

I know you're trying to make a point, but how can you justify religion in school when you know perfectly that religion is not based on evidence.


If you want to say that "My views" are being forced on school....fine believe that if you wish.

But this is the way people are educated....with FACTS, not faith or untestable religious doctrine.


It's ridiculous to tell a child that everything is "God did it" when we already HAVE facts that refute those claims!

The question is how can you disprove it. You can mutter this and that comparing anything you want to whatever in the end it comes down to how can you disprove it? You cannot ..Anymore than anyone could prove it putting everything at a stalemate................

theonedru
06-15-2012, 09:56 PM
OK, I already let go of the math example.

Did you see my gravity example?

I could use the example on EVERYTHING, history, English, literature, drama, any subject you want.

The point is we are NOT going to teach something that can be proven along side something that CAN'T be proven.

I know you're trying to make a point, but how can you justify religion in school when you know perfectly that religion is not based on evidence.


If you want to say that "My views" are being forced on school....fine believe that if you wish.

But this is the way people are educated....with FACTS, not faith or untestable religious doctrine.


It's ridiculous to tell a child that everything is "God did it" when we already HAVE facts that refute those claims!

Someone who involves themselves in the scientific world would know that any true scientist would keep an open mind to the possibility of anything and not shut themselves out of the equation. Sure many may not believe bt that doesn't mean they are going to sit there and say there is zero possibility because thats not scientific is it?

drtom2005
06-15-2012, 10:00 PM
The question is how can you disprove it. You can mutter this and that comparing anything you want to whatever in the end it comes down to how can you disprove it? You cannot ..Anymore than anyone could prove it putting everything at a stalemate................
I have a very simple question. Could you define "god?" Based on your personal definition it is possible to disprove it. Of course, you could define it out of existence.

theonedru
06-15-2012, 10:09 PM
I have a very simple question. Could you define "god?" Based on your personal definition it is possible to disprove it. Of course, you could define it out of existence.

I prob could though my answer could be many pages long and quite complex, or it could be a one word answer that makes little sense to anyone but myself.

theonedru
06-15-2012, 10:10 PM
I have a very simple question. Could you define "god?" Based on your personal definition it is possible to disprove it. Of course, you could define it out of existence.

And if you think about it your question while simply said is not in itself anyway simple.

Its like asking "What's the color of this red apple?"

JustAlex
06-15-2012, 10:11 PM
Someone who involves themselves in the scientific world would know that any true scientist would keep an open mind to the possibility of anything and not shut themselves out of the equation. Sure many may not believe bt that doesn't mean they are going to sit there and say there is zero possibility because thats not scientific is it?

I feel like we're going in circles.

BE PERFECTLY HONEST WITH ME.....do you believe untestable religion should be taught alongside with TESTABLE Science?

What educational value would anyone get out of this?

Please respond.

drtom2005
06-15-2012, 10:12 PM
I prob could though my answer could be many pages long and quite complex, or it could be a one word answer that makes little sense to anyone but myself.
What is the point of discussing it then? Just make sure you do not hurt anyone else with your actions or beliefs. Believe what you want to, man. Just don't tread on me.
I really do not think most Americans really care what a person believes about god or a higher power. I think most people care about actions. People care if you are a good person.

drtom2005
06-15-2012, 10:16 PM
And if you think about it your question while simply said is not in itself anyway simple.

Its like asking "What's the color of this red apple?"

The apple is red. It is an easy answer.

theonedru
06-15-2012, 10:49 PM
The apple is red. It is an easy answer.

Actually the answer is..

Every color but red. All the colors of the spectrum are absorbed into the apple, except for red which bounces off and is caught by the eye, thus giving it a red appearance but technically the red apple is not red. You see a complicated scientific answer to a simple question...

theonedru
06-15-2012, 10:54 PM
What is the point of discussing it then? Just make sure you do not hurt anyone else with your actions or beliefs. Believe what you want to, man. Just don't tread on me.
I really do not think most Americans really care what a person believes about god or a higher power. I think most people care about actions. People care if you are a good person.

And thats it spot on really, the main thing that we all should be but a lot of us are not..... A good person

theonedru
06-15-2012, 10:59 PM
I feel like we're going in circles.

BE PERFECTLY HONEST WITH ME.....do you believe untestable religion should be taught alongside with TESTABLE Science?

What educational value would anyone get out of this?

Please respond.

The question is why can it not? Most science uses equations in their theories yet I have showed you that numerical equations are bunk and as such so are any scientific theory using numbers in anyway .. Just as delusional and hypothetical as any God concept...........

drtom2005
06-15-2012, 11:32 PM
Actually the answer is..

Every color but red. All the colors of the spectrum are absorbed into the apple, except for red which bounces off and is caught by the eye, thus giving it a red appearance but technically the red apple is not red. You see a complicated scientific answer to a simple question...

I didn't think you going to go so deep. Yes, you are right. Although, you did explain why the apple appears red. Science baby!!!!:))))

drtom2005
06-16-2012, 12:34 AM
The question is why can it not? Most science uses equations in their theories yet I have showed you that numerical equations are bunk and as such so are any scientific theory using numbers in anyway .. Just as delusional and hypothetical as any God concept...........

No it isn't. If any scientist (and I mean scientist) had good evidence for creationism, they would win a Noble Prize. Until Creationism has creditable and reproducable evidence, it should not be taught in schools. The "debate" should start when there is evidence to debate. Creationists misrepresent current evidence to try to make their point. How about they come up with something new and astounding?

Numerical equations work. Anyone on this site couldn't discuss on this site without quantum mechanics. It describes how computers work and communicate with each other.

theonedru
06-16-2012, 01:23 AM
No it isn't. If any scientist (and I mean scientist) had good evidence for creationism, they would win a Noble Prize. Until Creationism has creditable and reproducable evidence, it should not be taught in schools. The "debate" should start when there is evidence to debate. Creationists misrepresent current evidence to try to make their point. How about they come up with something new and astounding?

Numerical equations work. Anyone on this site couldn't discuss on this site without quantum mechanics. It describes how computers work and communicate with each other.

They do not work because of the numbers, they words because numbers are comprised of letters, letters are finite a-z unlike numbers ...

drtom2005
06-16-2012, 01:29 AM
They do not work because of the numbers, they words because numbers are comprised of letters, letters are finite a-z unlike numbers ...


That is based on quantum mechanics. Here is a link. I only have a very flimsy grasp about the topic based on limited reading. I will never totally understand it. I do have a computer, cell phone, and nav in the car, so I think it is good. As for numbers/letters(whatever you want to use to express an action), they describe the actions of particles. How would anyone describe a tree without words?


But it is also responsible for the technological advances that make modern life possible. Without quantum mechanics there would be no transistor, and hence no personal computer; no laser, and hence no Blu-ray players. James Kakalios (http://www.physics.umn.edu/people/kakalios.html), a physics professor at the University of Minnesota, wants people to understand how much quantum mechanics influences our everyday lives—but to do so people must first understand quantum mechanics.



http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=everyday-quantum-physics

JustAlex
06-16-2012, 02:42 AM
The question is why can it not? Most science uses equations in their theories yet I have showed you that numerical equations are bunk and as such so are any scientific theory using numbers in anyway .. Just as delusional and hypothetical as any God concept...........

But I have already given NUMEROUS examples why it can not!

It has ZERO educational value.

It doesn't provide answers.

It is dogmatic instead of reasonable.

I'm not going to pretend I'm so smart that I can properly answer the statement you have made, but I'm sure you know that what I'm saying is much more logical than saying that "numbers don't mean anything and are purely conceptual".

We have scientific laws and we assume the universe works in this way because we have done testable observations and it tells us that our laws are indeed truthful (e.g Gravity, relativity, light, math, etc.)

BTW, you're using science to debunk science?

Also, we already have a center used to teach religion, it's called CHURCH, why in the world would we need a public school as well?


P.S. I'm sorry for responding so late, my internet went away for about 4 hours.

But I'm sure the electrical signals had nothing to do with that, I'm sure GOD made my internet go away because he was angry at me. :(:

Zimbow
06-16-2012, 04:44 AM
Shew, read through 15 pages and I like the debate! I was listening to John Boy and Billy on the way home from work the other morning (radio show out of North Carolina). They were having a contest and were reading 3 dates in history according to the month and day. One of them contained the Pledge of Allegiance. I find it odd that while I was listening to them talk, I was thinking about this thread. Let's say for example(s), we axe out the pledge of allegiance that we now recite and use the 2nd edited one. Which is;

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

This is the 1923 version from Francis Bellamy. I know the topic is "God Bless America", but did see somewhere in this thread the mention of the Pledge of Allegiance.

http://www.ushistory.org/documents/pledge.htm

mrveggieman
06-18-2012, 09:44 AM
It has ZERO educational value.




I have to disagree with you on that one. Weather or not you believe in God is not important. Most holy books such as the koran, bible, egyptian book of the dead, etc are considered great works or literature and provide for great reading and discussion. There is nothing wrong with religion being taught as an elective class in schools in an objective and non biased manner. Besides you cannot go to a christian chruch to learn about islam or hinduism. The only mention of them at the chruch will be a cheap diss at them.

pghin08
06-18-2012, 03:42 PM
I have to disagree with you on that one. Weather or not you believe in God is not important. Most holy books such as the koran, bible, egyptian book of the dead, etc are considered great works or literature and provide for great reading and discussion. There is nothing wrong with religion being taught as an elective class in schools in an objective and non biased manner. Besides you cannot go to a christian chruch to learn about islam or hinduism. The only mention of them at the chruch will be a cheap diss at them.

Couldn't agree more with this.

JustAlex
06-18-2012, 05:50 PM
I have to disagree with you on that one. Weather or not you believe in God is not important. Most holy books such as the koran, bible, egyptian book of the dead, etc are considered great works or literature and provide for great reading and discussion. There is nothing wrong with religion being taught as an elective class in schools in an objective and non biased manner. Besides you cannot go to a christian chruch to learn about islam or hinduism. The only mention of them at the chruch will be a cheap diss at them.

OK, good points...

As long as it's gonna be discussed and objective then I said I would be OK with an elective Bible class or Koran class, or any Holy book class.

AUTaxMan
06-18-2012, 07:25 PM
I have to disagree with you on that one. Weather or not you believe in God is not important. Most holy books such as the koran, bible, egyptian book of the dead, etc are considered great works or literature and provide for great reading and discussion. There is nothing wrong with religion being taught as an elective class in schools in an objective and non biased manner. Besides you cannot go to a christian chruch to learn about islam or hinduism. The only mention of them at the chruch will be a cheap diss at them.

I took a class offered by my church on the major world religions. It was very interesting.

mrveggieman
06-19-2012, 09:42 AM
I took a class offered by my church on the major world religions. It was very interesting.


Now be honest. Was the class taught in an objective an unbiased manner or was the ultimate goal to say that christanity is the only "real" religion and all others are false and tools of satan?

AUTaxMan
06-19-2012, 11:12 AM
Now be honest. Was the class taught in an objective an unbiased manner or was the ultimate goal to say that christanity is the only "real" religion and all others are false and tools of satan?

Of course it was taught in an objective manner. What would be the point if it wasn't?

mrveggieman
06-19-2012, 11:51 AM
Of course it was taught in an objective manner. What would be the point if it wasn't?


To be honest I have never heard of anything coming from a christian group. Not to say it wouldn't happen but it is a shocker to me. To answer you question a christian group might want to do a class to inform their members of other religions but at the end attempt to "prove" why all other religions are false except for christanity. It would be nothing more than a self serving class on their end.

AUTaxMan
06-19-2012, 12:01 PM
To be honest I have never heard of anything coming from a christian group. Not to say it wouldn't happen but it is a shocker to me. To answer you question a christian group might want to do a class to inform their members of other religions but at the end attempt to "prove" why all other religions are false except for christanity. It would be nothing more than a self serving class on their end.

It was just about educating yourself as to what other religions believe.

*censored*
06-19-2012, 02:16 PM
I'd ban it because it's a ridiculously schmaltzy song, not because it could be offensive.

Play something like the Star Spangled Banner, America the Beautiful, My Country 'Tis of Thee, This Land is Your Land, Battle Hymn of the Republic, a John Philip Sousa march... any of those, just PLEASE, NO MORE LEE FREAKING GREENWOOD!

AUTaxMan
06-19-2012, 02:24 PM
I'd ban it because it's a ridiculously schmaltzy song, not because it could be offensive.

Play something like the Star Spangled Banner, America the Beautiful, My Country 'Tis of Thee, This Land is Your Land, Battle Hymn of the Republic, a John Philip Sousa march... any of those, just PLEASE, NO MORE LEE FREAKING GREENWOOD!

I agree. Am no fan of the song itself.

pghin08
06-19-2012, 03:04 PM
I agree. Am no fan of the song itself.

Nor am I. If I'm about to start my day, I'd rather do it with some metal. Either that, or Renegade by Styx, because I'm from Pittsburgh, and that's what we do here.

mrveggieman
06-19-2012, 03:54 PM
Why can't they play banned in the USA by the 2live crew? It makes about as much sense as playing a politically based song such as God bless the usa.

pghin08
06-19-2012, 04:34 PM
Heck, even "Born in the USA" by Springsteen. You can't argue with the boss, plus I've always like to think of myself as a "cool rockin' daddy".

mrveggieman
06-19-2012, 05:05 PM
Heck, even "Born in the USA" by Springsteen. You can't argue with the boss, plus I've always like to think of myself as a "cool rockin' daddy".


Is he the one who sings that song I was born in a small town? That would be a good song to get everyone going without all of the politics.

AUTaxMan
06-19-2012, 05:31 PM
Heck, even "Born in the USA" by Springsteen. You can't argue with the boss, plus I've always like to think of myself as a "cool rockin' daddy".

Might want to check the lyrics to that one. Not exactly a pro-American anthem.

Wickabee
06-19-2012, 05:53 PM
well jehovas witness's are freaking nuts.


kinda like the Christians eh?

First of all, JWs are Christian.

Secondly, JWs are kinda weird, not freaking nuts.

Third, this is stupid. I'm actually a little in disbelief that a JW is at the center of this. As a kid when I was going to the JW meetings 3 times a week, the stance was not to get involved with this sort of thing. As a JW you don't sing the song because it shows nationalism, but you don't stick your nose in and try to change things either.
The Watchtower Society must have changed a LOT since I was 14.


nooooooo, im christain, jehovas witnesses beleifs are about as bad as mormons.

no holidays,no birthdays,no windows in their worship places. i had an aunt who was one.

plus they only think 144,000 are going to heaven or some crap like that
I like how you say the JWs beliefs are crazy and then reference a few generic things pretty much proving you dont know much about them at all. Good show.

They have their reasons for not celebrating holidays some (Christmas) actually make a lot of sense, some (birthdays) dont. No holidays is a lie, though. They have 1 holiday called Memorial that is, for all intents and purposes, a version of Easter without the chocolate, egg hunt and turkey dinner.

The reason there are no windows in Kindom Halls is (get ready its a doozy)...CHEAPER INSURANCE! THATS INSANE!
Yes, they believe 144,000 will sit at the right hand of God (aka Jehovah) after armageddon while all the other deserving people will live on a paradise earth. Why people think every JW is trying for 1 of a limited amount of spaces in heaven is beyond me. Truth be told their belief is that the 144,000 are hand-picked by Jehovah to help him do whatever he plans on doing after armageddon (getting him beers, I guess) while everyone else is just supposed to live life down here. Given the choice, I would stay down here and just live my life instead of going up there to work.

I am not a JW, I was raised in the religion and still have a good relationship with many member of the religion, including (but not limited to) my mother, aunt, uncle and grandfather. It does bother me, however, when I hear or see someone spouting off about the religion as if its insane while, at the exact same time, displaying the fact they really dont know much about it. Go ahead and disagree with them, lord knows I do, but at least give them the dignity of knowing more about them than the 3 half facts you mentioned before calling them freaking nuts.

habsheaven
06-19-2012, 06:14 PM
Well said. I should have been more clear and said "mainstream christians".

Wickabee
06-19-2012, 07:10 PM
Well said. I should have been more clear and said "mainstream christians".
Of everything I referenced in my post, that's the least of my issues, but the easiest misconception to debunk. As I said, I was raised in the religion until about the age of 14. I'm not going to claim to be an expert or anything, but I will say I seem to know more about the religion than the average person. Not blowing my own horn (I can't even reach), just stating what's become obvious to me over the years. The fact is, they follow the teachings of Christ as they interpret them, just as any other Christian religion does.

Being raised as a (half) JW, I grew up in complete disbelief at what people are willing to believe about JWs. Some of my absolute favourites from over the years:

1 - They sacrifice goats/cats/children/the elderly/what have you. You can tell because there are no windows on their Kingdom Halls (they aren't "churches" by the way)

2 - They are stupid. They believe there are only 144,000 places in heaven yet they try to gain more members, making it more difficult for them to get into heaven. I already explained this one.

3 - They aren't allowed to associate with non-JWs under any circumstances. Now, if this one were true, my mother wouldn't be married and I wouldn't exist.

There are many ideas about JWs that are crazier than JWs themselves. Growing up I was teased and picked on for it, had teachers treat me (and JW friends) unfairly because of it and, because of that upbringing, I get my back up a little when I see half-truths, misleading statements or outright lies about them being perpetuated.

Now, I'll leave you with a favourite joke of mine (and many JWs I know)

Q: Why don't Jehovah's Witnesses like Halloween?
A: They don't appreciate strangers knocking on their doors and bothering them.

shrewsbury
06-19-2012, 08:58 PM
wickabee i have never heard any of the things mentioned above about JW

besides not celebrating birthdays and some or maybe all holidays, the only negative thing i heard is a few things about the founders past, but not really the members themselves.

Wickabee
06-19-2012, 09:30 PM
wickabee i have never heard any of the things mentioned above about JW

besides not celebrating birthdays and some or maybe all holidays, the only negative thing i heard is a few things about the founders past, but not really the members themselves.
Okay...So?

I have heard these and many, many others (like that the fences around Kingdom Hall properties have all been 'charmed' to keep Satan out...anyone who knows anything about JWs knows this has absolutely no chance of being true) sometimes stated as questions (Is it true that...) but usually presented as fact or some odd mystery (such as randomly mentioning Kingdom Halls have no windows as if it points to some conspiracy). I had teachers treat me differently from others because I was associated with them; I didn't participate in Christmas concerts, etc.
One teacher in particular, grade 3, was awful for it. That year a kid hit me, drawing blood, so I swore at him. He got a "don't do it again" right in front of me, I got a 2 day suspension. One art class we were making pencil holders for our moms for Mother's Day. Mine was just like everyone else's except instead of 'Happy Mother's Day' I wrote 'I love you mom' on it. She walked by, grabbed it and said I wasn't doing the activity right. She threw out the one I'd made and made me start all over, making a big scene in front of the class. When I took it home to my mom she asked, "Why did you put Happy Mother's Day? You know I don't celebrate it." There was a lot of other stuff with that teacher, and I wasn't the only JW kid that noticed she only picked on us, hell, some non-JW kids could see it and we're talking about 8 year olds, but I'm not going any further into that other than to say I'm oddly proud to have gone through that kind of prejudice.

My point is just because you've never heard it doesn't mean it isn't there. I've lived it. Obviously, growing up in the religion and having family still in the religion, I'm going to come across it way more often than someone like yourself. That's neither here nor there. Honestly, if I hadn't heard it all with my own ears, I wouldn't believe anyone could believe some of this stuff about anyone. I'll put it this way, if I told you I've never heard any stereotypes about blacks (assuming I truly hadn't) would that mean anything?

EDIT:
That actually comes across a lot more confrontational than I intended. Please don't take it that way.

shrewsbury
06-19-2012, 09:47 PM
never said it wasn't there my friend, just saying i never heard such things and would not support such views if i did.
i seen some bad things in my day, but never religious intolerance, at least not that i can remember.

i couldn't say what i would do as a child, but i know if i seen someone do that to anyone now i would certainly have to say something

people are idiots, but not everyone

Wickabee
06-19-2012, 10:01 PM
never said it wasn't there my friend, just saying i never heard such things and would not support such views if i did.
i seen some bad things in my day, but never religious intolerance, at least not that i can remember.

i couldn't say what i would do as a child, but i know if i seen someone do that to anyone now i would certainly have to say something

people are idiots, but not everyone
Oh, I know that. As an 8 year old, I just took it and said nothing about it. I knew what it was, but figured pointing it out would have just made it worse. Had I been older I would have said something for certain. But, I was 8. There were other events with other teachers that, looking back I would bet had the same motivation, but none were as bad as that teacher was and I rarely put it together at the time. I know not everyone is stupid and I know I'm not the only JW who will stand up for them.

The kind of weird part is Canada and the US are both built, to some degree, on religious freedom. Most will agree it is wrong to (I know this isn't the best choice of wording but) persecute anyone for their religious beliefs, but less seem to agree it is wrong to (again) persecute JWs. I have a theory that it's because they don't vote, but I could be wrong about that.

habsheaven
06-19-2012, 10:18 PM
Oh, I know that. As an 8 year old, I just took it and said nothing about it. I knew what it was, but figured pointing it out would have just made it worse. Had I been older I would have said something for certain. But, I was 8. There were other events with other teachers that, looking back I would bet had the same motivation, but none were as bad as that teacher was and I rarely put it together at the time. I know not everyone is stupid and I know I'm not the only JW who will stand up for them.

The kind of weird part is Canada and the US are both built, to some degree, on religious freedom. Most will agree it is wrong to (I know this isn't the best choice of wording but) persecute anyone for their religious beliefs, but less seem to agree it is wrong to (again) persecute JWs. I have a theory that it's because they don't vote, but I could be wrong about that.

Who doesn't vote? JWs? If so, what is the reason for that?

Wickabee
06-19-2012, 10:30 PM
JWs don't vote. Well, some probably do but as a rule they don't. The reason, as I understand it, is that the only being who is truly in charge is God and to vote for human leaders is like going...

habsheaven
06-19-2012, 11:13 PM
Okay, I have to say it. That, IMO, is a ridiculous stance. I betcha the JWs themselves have "leaders". I wonder how they became such?

Wickabee
06-19-2012, 11:33 PM
Okay, I have to say it. That, IMO, is a ridiculous stance. I betcha the JWs themselves have "leaders". I wonder how they became such?
They have Elders and whatnot and yes that lends to why I rejected their and all other religion, but that is a different topic*. I honestly couldn't tell you how elders come to be such. I do know that I've never been party to, seen or even heard of any sort of election within the religion. I've seen people I knew as just another witness move into the role of "Elder" but I have no idea the process involved. I'm sure if you asked a JW who knew the answer they wouldn't hesitate to tell you. One thing I can say for JWs is that, so far as groups and organizations go, I personally have never found a more trustworthy group as a whole.


*-Any religion with any sort of leadership or organization that teaches "man leading man is like the blind leading the blind" and doesn't see the hypocrisy of that isn't for me.

habsheaven
06-20-2012, 09:58 AM
They have Elders and whatnot and yes that lends to why I rejected their and all other religion, but that is a different topic*. I honestly couldn't tell you how elders come to be such. I do know that I've never been party to, seen or even heard of any sort of election within the religion. I've seen people I knew as just another witness move into the role of "Elder" but I have no idea the process involved. I'm sure if you asked a JW who knew the answer they wouldn't hesitate to tell you. One thing I can say for JWs is that, so far as groups and organizations go, I personally have never found a more trustworthy group as a whole.


*-Any religion with any sort of leadership or organization that teaches "man leading man is like the blind leading the blind" and doesn't see the hypocrisy of that isn't for me.

I guess it is all in "how you look at it". When I vote for an individual, I am not electing them to "lead" me. I am electing them to REPRESENT me. There is a huge difference between the two.

mrveggieman
06-20-2012, 10:03 AM
First of all, JWs are Christian.

Secondly, JWs are kinda weird, not freaking nuts.

Third, this is stupid. I'm actually a little in disbelief that a JW is at the center of this. As a kid when I was going to the JW meetings 3 times a week, the stance was not to get involved with this sort of thing. As a JW you don't sing the song because it shows nationalism, but you don't stick your nose in and try to change things either.
The Watchtower Society must have changed a LOT since I was 14.


I like how you say the JWs beliefs are crazy and then reference a few generic things pretty much proving you dont know much about them at all. Good show.

They have their reasons for not celebrating holidays some (Christmas) actually make a lot of sense, some (birthdays) dont. No holidays is a lie, though. They have 1 holiday called Memorial that is, for all intents and purposes, a version of Easter without the chocolate, egg hunt and turkey dinner.

The reason there are no windows in Kindom Halls is (get ready its a doozy)...CHEAPER INSURANCE! THATS INSANE!
Yes, they believe 144,000 will sit at the right hand of God (aka Jehovah) after armageddon while all the other deserving people will live on a paradise earth. Why people think every JW is trying for 1 of a limited amount of spaces in heaven is beyond me. Truth be told their belief is that the 144,000 are hand-picked by Jehovah to help him do whatever he plans on doing after armageddon (getting him beers, I guess) while everyone else is just supposed to live life down here. Given the choice, I would stay down here and just live my life instead of going up there to work.

I am not a JW, I was raised in the religion and still have a good relationship with many member of the religion, including (but not limited to) my mother, aunt, uncle and grandfather. It does bother me, however, when I hear or see someone spouting off about the religion as if its insane while, at the exact same time, displaying the fact they really dont know much about it. Go ahead and disagree with them, lord knows I do, but at least give them the dignity of knowing more about them than the 3 half facts you mentioned before calling them freaking nuts.


CHURCH!! :love0030::love0030::love0030:

shrewsbury
06-20-2012, 10:23 AM
wickabee who does all this?

we have been through this before.

AUTaxMan
06-20-2012, 11:04 AM
First of all, JWs are Christian.

JWs follow practices that are inconsistent with the teachings of Christ. For one, works are required for salvation. That is not what Christ taught.

mrveggieman
06-20-2012, 11:14 AM
JWs follow practices that are inconsistent with the teachings of Christ. For one, works are required for salvation. That is not what Christ taught.


Everyone has a different interpertation of what Christ wanted us to do. That's why there are different forms of christanity as well as why there is islam and other religions.

shrewsbury
06-20-2012, 12:16 PM
veggie, this is a huge issue, has been and always will be. that is what originally prompted me to figure out jesus myself. i like to only go by what he has said, but even that is up for debate.

Wickabee
06-20-2012, 01:40 PM
JWs follow practices that are inconsistent with the teachings of Christ. For one, works are required for salvation. That is not what Christ taught.
That's up for interpretation, but I'm not going to get in a Biblical debate here.

AUTaxMan
06-20-2012, 03:40 PM
That's up for interpretation.

Not really, unless you interpret Jesus's teachings on salvation to mean something other than what he said.

mrveggieman
06-20-2012, 03:42 PM
Not really, unless you interpret Jesus's teachings on salvation to mean something other than what he said.


You realize that other religions besides christanity wrote about Jesus don't you?

AUTaxMan
06-20-2012, 04:22 PM
You realize that other religions besides christanity wrote about Jesus don't you?

Yes. I also realize that JWs is a religion that came into existence in the late 1800s because its founder didn't like what he read in the Bible.

Wickabee
06-20-2012, 05:32 PM
Yes. I also realize that JWs is a religion that came into existence in the late 1800s because its founder didn't like what he read in the Bible.
And just about every protestant Christian religion has similar beginnings.

But like I said, I'm not about to be dragged into a religious debate here.

Gorillawits
06-23-2012, 08:51 PM
JWs is just another cult like the Morman's that adds to the bible.

Wickabee
06-23-2012, 09:32 PM
JWs is just another cult like the Morman's that adds to the bible.
...


and are you just another bigot who makes sweeping derogatory comments about religions you don't know much about?


because right now it really looks like it.

jlzinck
06-23-2012, 11:08 PM
...


and are you just another bigot who makes sweeping derogatory comments about religions you don't know much about?


because right now it really looks like it.

I agree with our neighbor from the north!

bud7562
06-23-2012, 11:17 PM
Yeah, that's why Mexico is so bad...

Instead of fixing their country they just abandon it.

It looks like you support the same thing!


I on the other hand, am willing to fight the good fight!

The U.S is doing so badly right now, but it's my HOME and I'm not going to "GET OUT" just because the people that are messing it up don't like it when there is opposition.

This is why I'm so open about my positions, and I hope any CLOSET Liberals/atheists/rationalists see my many posts and come out to defend rationality and logic!!

We can no longer afford to sit quiet, we have to fight back against religion and ignorance! thanks the goverment for takeing god out of everything. can we go oversears and do the same thing and say we dont like what you are doing and take god out there schools, than what????? :confused0024:

AUTaxMan
06-24-2012, 01:18 PM
JWs is just another cult like the Morman's that adds to the bible.

I wouldn't call them a cult, but they certainly have added to the bible.

Wickabee
06-24-2012, 03:50 PM
Well, maybe, but so has every "Christian" religion that celebrates Christmas, so...

drtom2005
06-24-2012, 05:46 PM
People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Based on the definition of Cult below any religous group that disagrees with another could label each other a cult. Hindus/Muslims/etc could call Christians occultists. Defintion of occultists below this. I wouldn't paint people with a broad brush.
cult

NOUN

1.
religion: a system of religious or spiritual beliefs, especially an informal and transient belief system regarded by others as misguided, unorthodox, extremist, or false, and directed by a charismatic, authoritarian leader

2.
religious group: a group of people who share religious or spiritual beliefs, especially beliefs regarded by others as misguided, unorthodox, extremist, or false

3.
idolization of somebody or something: an extreme or excessive admiration for a person, philosophy of life, or activity ( often used before a noun ) "the cult of youth"
"a cult hero"


4.
object of idolization: a person, philosophy, or activity regarded with extreme or excessive admiration

5.
fad: something popular or fashionable among a devoted group of enthusiasts ( often used before a noun ) "has taken on cult status"


6.
cultural anthropology system of supernatural beliefs: a body of organized practices and beliefs supposed to involve interaction with and control over supernatural powers

7.
sociology elite group: a self-identified group of people who share a narrowly defined interest or perspective

occultism 1. The study of the supernatural.
2. A belief in occult powers and the possibility of bringing them under human control.

Noun1.occultist - a believer in occultism; someone versed in the occult arts

Gorillawits
06-24-2012, 11:23 PM
Yes they are a cult, you are not suppose to add to the bible. There is a Curse in the last Chapter of Revelation for anyone who adds to the bible or takes away from it.

Revelation 22:

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

sobersoul
06-24-2012, 11:28 PM
Any group can be labeled a cult. It's a word that gets shot out as a pejorative for all sorts of purposes. However, it is a meaningless and hurtful label.

Gorillawits
06-24-2012, 11:38 PM
Any group can be labeled a cult. It's a word that gets shot out as a pejorative for all sorts of purposes. However, it is a meaningless and hurtful label.


Well your not a christian, so people using the bible for evil purposes isn't going to matter to you.

The bible says Christ sets us free in are service to Him. These cults use the bible to enslave man.

*censored*
06-25-2012, 12:24 AM
Then isn't Christianity as a whole cursed due to the likes of all the books that have been removed over time? Or with all the varying translations from one language to another that change meanings of various words? Who's to say what's the full book?

ildd
06-25-2012, 12:29 AM
Singing this in school is completely optional... God Bless America, Pledge of Allegiance, etc. You don't have to say a single word if you don't want to. Why does it have to be banned/removed from a school? If it's a private islamic school or something like that, then sure.
People need to realize that if you can stop in the middle of the street and pray 6 times a day or whatever muslims do, then you can sing a patriotic song, it won't "offend" anybody. Infact, singing is mandatory in a lot of countries.

Gorillawits
06-25-2012, 02:10 AM
Then isn't Christianity as a whole cursed due to the likes of all the books that have been removed over time? Or with all the varying translations from one language to another that change meanings of various words? Who's to say what's the full book?


What books were removed? That is why you study like Jesus said, so you know what God is talking about.

Here is an example. When it says Solomon was the wisest man, note God never calls him the "wisest" man. The only thing Soloman was realy good at was judging court cases sent before him like when he said to cut the child in half ,so he could see who the real mother was based on the reaction.

If Soloman was so wise he would have never slept with 1,000 different woman and worshiped their pagan gods. The "Star of David" was actaualy called the "Seal of Soloman". It is really the pagan star of Aserte that Soloman used when these women lured him into paganism. That is why Israel still has it on their flag to this day.



Here is another one. People call King David's son Absalom evil, when no where does God say he was evil. Absalom aveneged is sisters rape like the Law of Moses required when David let it slide. Then David pushes him away and treats him like and outcast. So God uses Absalom to punish Israel for demanding a King, by starting a civil war. Also to punish David for murdering Uriah.

First David Prays that Absalom will follow a false prophets advice. So just as David had prayed it, Absalom slept with David's heram after listening to the advice of a false prophet.


Then David starts to humble himself again and God always spoke through David when he humbled himself.

So David sends a rightoes adviser to Absalom and Absalom Listens to the man's advice. The man tells him how great of warriors David's men are, so he says "wait till all the tribes of Israel have gathered agaist David before you attack". (note: This is because God wanted every tribe to be punished in this war, because every tribe demanded a King)

Before the battle, David tells his right hand man Joab, "do not kill Absalom". (because God wanted Absalom to be the next King, not Solomon) In the battle, Absalom's army is defeated and he gets caught by his extremly long hair in tree branches while riding in his chairiot. Joab finds him hanging in the tree and murders him. (this is half the reason why David tells Soloman before he dies, not to let Joab have a peacful death, because he murdered Absalom and Saul's General Abner)

Wickabee
06-25-2012, 06:50 AM
Yes they are a cult, you are not suppose to add to the bible. There is a Curse in the last Chapter of Revelation for anyone who adds to the bible or takes away from it.

Revelation 22:

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
I see where you get your name...

mrveggieman
06-25-2012, 09:56 AM
Yes they are a cult, you are not suppose to add to the bible. There is a Curse in the last Chapter of Revelation for anyone who adds to the bible or takes away from it.

Revelation 22:

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


So I take it that you don't eat shrimp or pork, and you also believe that anyone who works on the sabbath day needs to be excecuted as perscribed by the bible. If you don't then you are contridicting yourself because you are taking away words from the bible.

Gorillawits
06-25-2012, 11:17 AM
I see where you get your name...


I see you are not acting like a kind hearted person...



So I take it that you don't eat shrimp or pork, and you also believe that anyone who works on the sabbath day needs to be excecuted as perscribed by the bible. If you don't then you are contridicting yourself because you are taking away words from the bible.

The Tanahk does not say that it is a sin to eat pork nor does it require the death penalty. It was not an abomination to eat it. That is a simple translation error, if it were an abomination it would require the death penalty. It was s simple health law, as God didn't want them eating undercooked pork-shrimp and getting sick. Jesus said it is not what goes into your mouth that is sin, it is what comes out of your mouth that is sin.

God never demanded the Gentile nations keep the Sabath, that was for Israel. Paul and the apostles came to the conclusion that Gentiles did not have to keep Jewish customs like circumsions to be Christians. Gentile nations already had their own laws. As far as I can remember I have not broken the Sabath as a Jewish-Christian.

You error because you have not studied and refuse to listen to Jesus.

mrveggieman
06-25-2012, 11:28 AM
I see you are not acting like a kind hearted person...




The Tanahk does not say that it is a sin to eat pork nor does it require the death penalty. It was not an abomination to eat it. That is a simple translation error, if it were an abomination it would require the death penalty. It was s simple health law, as God didn't want them eating undercooked pork-shrimp and getting sick. Jesus said it is not what goes into your mouth that is sin, it is what comes out of your mouth that is sin.

God never demanded the Gentile nations keep the Sabath, that was for Israel. Paul and the apostles came to the conclusion that Gentiles did not have to keep Jewish customs like circumsions to be Christians. Gentile nations already had their own laws. As far as I can remember I have not broken the Sabath as a Jewish-Christian.

You error because you have not studied and refuse to listen to Jesus.


I get it. When something that is in the bible that you don't like you write it off as a translation error. Thanks for clearing that one up. :thumb:

*censored*
06-25-2012, 12:00 PM
What books were removed?

Council of Nicaea ring a bell?

Legend has it that Constantine, unsure of what to keep and what to remove in terms of Scripture, took the books being considered and tossed them on a table. Those that landed on the table were in, those that didn't were out. Many of these books were burned. Some survived as the Apocrypha.

How can you be certain that one of those books removed, or one of those put in, would not violate the passage of Revelation you just quoted? Or did God knock the ones he didn't like on the floor?

Fact is, when Revelation was written, the Bible as we know it wasn't fully constructed in the way we know it now. There were over 300 different books accepted as being THE Bible at the time of the Council of Nicaea. So, if the Apocrypha were removed from the Bible, how can anyone be 100% certain that those books were not intended to be part of the Bible to which your quote from Revelation refers?

Hope you're not wearing polyester.

Wickabee
06-25-2012, 03:05 PM
I see you are not acting like a kind hearted person...

Maybe, but at least I'm not shooting my mouth off on subjects I know nothing about.

Gorillawits
06-25-2012, 06:45 PM
Council of Nicaea ring a bell?

Legend has it that Constantine, unsure of what to keep and what to remove in terms of Scripture, took the books being considered and tossed them on a table. Those that landed on the table were in, those that didn't were out. Many of these books were burned. Some survived as the Apocrypha.

How can you be certain that one of those books removed, or one of those put in, would not violate the passage of Revelation you just quoted? Or did God knock the ones he didn't like on the floor?

Fact is, when Revelation was written, the Bible as we know it wasn't fully constructed in the way we know it now. There were over 300 different books accepted as being THE Bible at the time of the Council of Nicaea. So, if the Apocrypha were removed from the Bible, how can anyone be 100% certain that those books were not intended to be part of the Bible to which your quote from Revelation refers?

Hope you're not wearing polyester.


So because of the "Council of Nicaea" you are going to reject Jesus and serve satan?

All you have to do is see the New Testement fufills what the Tanahk said would happen. Nothing else is needed. What magical text are you looking for? Are you looking for fortune telling or something in your life? If you want paganism so much then go into the occult if you do not want to serve Jesus.


Is polyester going to save you?



I get it. When something that is in the bible that you don't like you write it off as a translation error. Thanks for clearing that one up. :thumb:


Thanks for clearing up that you are not looking for truth. Keep trying to hide your sin in the dark, so you will think no one can see it.



Maybe, but at least I'm not shooting my mouth off on subjects I know nothing about.

Yes you are shooting your mouth off right now, cause you know nothing about the bible other then that you hate it and you waist your life mocking people trying to tell you the truth.

habsheaven
06-25-2012, 07:02 PM
With the way the world looks now, I think I am better served by serving Satan. He clearly is more powerful than this God/Jesus guy.

boba
06-25-2012, 07:03 PM
So I take it that you don't eat shrimp or pork, and you also believe that anyone who works on the sabbath day needs to be excecuted as perscribed by the bible. If you don't then you are contridicting yourself because you are taking away words from the bible.

Oh my goodness, when are people going to quit using this argument.

Mark 7:14-23

New International Version (NIV)

14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.” [16] [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+7%3A14-23&version=NIV#fen-NIV-24480a)]
17 After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18 “Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19 For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean.)

AUTaxMan
06-25-2012, 07:26 PM
Oh my goodness, when are people going to quit using this argument.

It's been at least 3 or 4 days since somebody tried to make that argument in the PR forum.

Wickabee
06-25-2012, 08:50 PM
Yes you are shooting your mouth off right now, cause you know nothing about the bible other then that you hate it and you waist your life mocking people trying to tell you the truth.
You, sir, have no idea what I know. One thing I know, for example, is that you haven't got a single clue about Jehovah's Witnesses and are a very ignorant and arrogant person, based on your derogatory comments in this thread. I really have no use for people like you who refuse to learn about something before spouting off prejudiced crap. That is the worst type of person.

Don't reply to any of my posts. If I want a prejudiced point of view, I'll go to a schoolyard.

Gorillawits
06-26-2012, 12:51 AM
You, sir, have no idea what I know. One thing I know, for example, is that you haven't got a single clue about Jehovah's Witnesses and are a very ignorant and arrogant person, based on your derogatory comments in this thread. I really have no use for people like you who refuse to learn about something before spouting off prejudiced crap. That is the worst type of person.

Don't reply to any of my posts. If I want a prejudiced point of view, I'll go to a schoolyard.


If you do not like the truth, then it is to bad.

pghin08
06-26-2012, 09:50 AM
This thread is over.