PDA

View Full Version : Transgender student fights to use ladies' bathroom at Arkansas college



pwaldo
06-10-2012, 10:40 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2150574/Jennifer-Braly-Transgender-student-fights-use-ladies-bathroom-University-Arkansas-Fort-Smith.html


An Arkansas transgender student has fought and won for the right to use the ladies' washroom.

Jennifer Braly, a student at the University of Arkansas Fort Smith, has ushered in a new era of equality on her campus.

As a transgender student, UAFS only allowed her to use unisex restrooms, but after taking her case to the Department of Justice, the university has repealed its dated policies toward gender identity.

'Weíre just human beings, and we just want the same equal rights as everybody else,' said Ms Braly, to 5News.

She said the state recognizes her as a woman as she legally changed her name and gender.

However, she is waiting on a sex reassignment surgery to complete the transition.

'Most people didnít know my situation being transgender,' she said. 'I was very passable.'

Ms Braly used the ladies' restroom until word got out about her situation.

'When they found out that I was transgender they got uncomfortable with me being in the bathroom with them,' said Ms Braly.

After that, she was relegated to the few and far between unisex bathrooms as per campus policy.

'I feel like I should be treated equally as a woman because thatís what Iím transitioning into,' said Ms Braly.

She went to the Department of Justice to file a complaint.

After that, the university changed it's policy.

hawk2618
06-10-2012, 10:55 PM
I'm actually against this.I mean seriously....couldn't any guy dressed up as a woman use the ladies room? This could go on for a long period of time before someone caught onto it.Then...couldn't they just say"I'm a transgender"when being questioned? Sorry..but if you have to change your gender to keep your mind at ease at what you think you are.....don't expect everyone to go along with it and accept the consequences that go along with the change.

MattDMC
06-11-2012, 03:25 AM
Heres how I view the situation, If you have mens parts use the mens room women parts you use the womens room.

The original post states " she is waiting on a sex reassignment surgery to complete the transition" my understanding is he (she?) still has mens parts he (she?) should use the mens room.

hawk2618 brings up a valid point, if the person in this case is able to use the womens room then so could any male as long as they say they are transgender. Think about it there are a lot of sick messed up perverts out there, when you open the door for someone in the right it also opens the door for everyone with the wrong intentions.

After the person has their gender reassignment surgery then I would have no problem with them using the womens room but until then your still a male and have the genitals to prove it.

Star_Cards
06-11-2012, 11:16 AM
I'm not sure how I feel about this. I think that if you are progressing through the switch to another gender you should be able to use your new gender's restrooms. Part of my wants to say you define what restroom you use based on your genitals but I think gender reassignment doesn't start with that process. I believe that is one of the last things that happens to complete the process. I feel that if you are legitimately going through the process you should be able to switch restrooms to the sex that you are going to be once complete.

I guess for me I don't see why it's such a huge issue. It's not like people see each other going to the bathroom when in a restroom. You don't see any nudity, unless you're at the urinal and don't employ the eyes forward rule or it's an old school trough or something like that. I get that women don't want men in their restroom, but if someone is in a restroom doing weird things it's going to be a problem no matter if you have the same genitals of the other people in their or not. If this women is dressing like a women but hasn't had the surgery yet my guess is that the rest of the women who are in there aren't going to notice when that person is in there or not unless they know of her. Besides, all of the women's toilets have stalls so it's not like they are losing any privacy.

I'd like to here a women's take. As a man I'd have no issue with a transgender person using my bathroom if they were switching to the male sex before they had the final surgery. They'd go into a stall and no one would really have a clue.

duane1969
06-11-2012, 11:34 AM
The simple reality is this. This person is uncomfortable dressing as a woman and using the mens restroom. Understandably it would be highly uncomfortable to walk in and out of a mens restroom wearing women's clothes. However, all of the women should not have to be uncomfortable to accomodate him so that he isn't uncomfortable. This is the problem that I always have with these types of issues. It is always expected that the rights and lifestyle of the masses be imposed upon to satisfy the wants and needs of the individual. I disagree with that.

The fact of the matter is that this is just a person wanting to force their desires on others. The article says that there are unisex bathrooms available to him but he refuses to use them. He insist on using the women's bathroom. That is all of the proof that I need that this isn't about anything other than him demanding to get his way regardless of whoever it imposes upon.

Star_Cards
06-11-2012, 11:49 AM
I see both sides of this duane. I guess for me I just don't understand what makes the women uncomfortable about it because once the surgery is complete she will use women's restrooms. I get that it's out of the norm, but I just don't see why it's a big deal. It's not like they aren't in private stalls once they actually start using the restroom. Like I said before, if this person is doing things to make the other women uncomfortable then that's an entirely different situation. I don't see how this makes them uncomfortable, but I recognize that I am not in their shoes so I'd love to hear a female perspective. as I said before it wouldn't bother me if the sex of the transgender person were switched.

I do agree that it also seems like this person could use the unisex restrooms until the surgery is complete. that's assuming the unisex restrooms are available every where a mens/womens/ restroom would be available.

duane1969
06-11-2012, 02:06 PM
Different strokes for different folks. I don't consider myself a prude or backwards but I would be uncomfortable if I were using the men's restroom and a woman dressed in man's clothes came in....

shrewsbury
06-11-2012, 02:26 PM
but a mens restroom is designed for man parts, if you have them, i would say you should have to use it

Star_Cards
06-11-2012, 02:31 PM
really? do you think you'd even know it was a girl dressed as a guy? odds are that person would just walk past you at the urinal and go into a stall and close the door and wash their hands and leave...

duane1969
06-11-2012, 02:52 PM
really? do you think you'd even know it was a girl dressed as a guy? odds are that person would just walk past you at the urinal and go into a stall and close the door and wash their hands and leave when they are done. I can't say who should or would be uncomfortable but I don't see if from a males perspective. I can see where girls would be, but like I said it's not like they have open stalls.

The people that would dress in women's close just to get into a women's bathroom seems to me to be very small.

So what happens after this person has the surgery and looks exactly as they do now but has female genitalia? Are you for or against them using the women's bathroom?

Once the conversion is complete then I have no issue with it. But if they have man parts I think they should use the men's restroom because they are still a man. A name change on a piece of paper does not make them a woman.

Star_Cards
06-11-2012, 02:58 PM
Once the conversion is complete then I have no issue with it. But if they have man parts I think they should use the men's restroom because they are still a man. A name change on a piece of paper does not make them a woman.

I can see that. I just think since there are steps take, more than just dressing like a women) before the actual surgery takes place that I can see the argument to use the women's restroom before the actual surgery.

hawk2618
06-11-2012, 07:36 PM
Star...its conceivably very easy to tell a man dressed up as a woman.On some very rare instances,they could slip by.I would love to see a poll on this matter to back up my statement.I too would love to hear or see a womans point of view on this.

Star_Cards
06-12-2012, 09:47 AM
Star...its conceivably very easy to tell a man dressed up as a woman.On some very rare instances,they could slip by.I would love to see a poll on this matter to back up my statement.I too would love to hear or see a womans point of view on this.

I guess that all depends on the man. There are men that could pass and it also depends on what they are wearing exactly. Sure if it's a big guy it would be easy to tell, but don't be so quick to say that any man dressed like a women would be detectable as a man in women's clothes. Also, we are not just talking about a man in drag. We are talking about a person that is going through other changes via hormones and such to help physically alter their appearance. We aren't talking about an SNL skit where charles barkley dresses up in a dress, hideous wig and makeup, and doesn't shave his legs.

Don't get me wrong, I've seen some transgender women who used to be men and you can tell or at least give it some thought, but to say it's conceivably very easy to tell just isn't true. some are and some aren't


I'd also love to hear a females perspective on this.

duane1969
06-12-2012, 10:35 AM
I guess that all depends on the man. There are men that could pass and it also depends on what they are wearing exactly. Sure if it's a big guy it would be easy to tell, but don't be so quick to say that any man dressed like a women would be detectable as a man in women's clothes. Also, we are not just talking about a man in drag. We are talking about a person that is going through other changes via hormones and such to help physically alter their appearance. We aren't talking about an SNL skit where charles barkley dresses up in a dress, hideous wig and makeup, and doesn't shave his legs.

Don't get me wrong, I've seen some transgender women who used to be men and you can tell or at least give it some thought, but to say it's conceivably very easy to tell just isn't true. some are and some aren't


I'd also love to hear a females perspective on this.

I am going to go out on a limb and say that this one is pretty easy to tell. The male pattern baldness is a bit of a hint, nevermind the masculine face.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/05/27/article-2150574-1350B500000005DC-416_468x408.jpg

Star_Cards
06-12-2012, 11:24 AM
the hair line is a clue and there are some masculine characteristics, but I've seen plenty of women who are less feminine that most. I don't assume they are all transgender. I still believe it's not very easy to tell in all cases.

shrewsbury
06-12-2012, 12:20 PM
how would any of you react if the above pictured person came into the mens room while you were in there?

Star_Cards
06-12-2012, 01:17 PM
how would any of you react if the above pictured person came into the mens room while you were in there?

I think I would think it was a women and think she accidentally went into the wrong bathroom. I'd probably finish, was my hands, and go post on facebook about some chick walking into the men's bathroom.

duane1969
06-12-2012, 01:40 PM
how would any of you react if the above pictured person came into the mens room while you were in there?

About the same way I did when a woman walked into the JC Penny bathroom while I was standing at the urinal. She apologized and said that she couldn't hold it any longer and there was a long line to the women's restroom. I shrugged and told her that I didn't care but if she saw anything she didn't want to see that it was her fault for being in the men's bathroom.

shrewsbury
06-12-2012, 02:37 PM
would a man get the same reaction in the womens bathroom?

if i was waiting for my wife to come out and a man was going to go in, i would have to say something, nothing mean, but something

duane1969
06-12-2012, 02:44 PM
would a man get the same reaction in the womens bathroom?

if i was waiting for my wife to come out and a man was going to go in, i would have to say something, nothing mean, but something

No it would not get the same reaction.

And if I saw a man going in the women's restroom where my wife and daughter were I would say something, definitely mean, definitely something that would clarify that his safety was in jeaopardy if he went in.

tutall
06-12-2012, 02:53 PM
No it would not get the same reaction.

And if I saw a man going in the women's restroom where my wife and daughter were I would say something, definitely mean, definitely something that would clarify that his safety was in jeaopardy if he went in.

Def agree... There is definently a difference in my opinion between the two instances... I was at a country concert this weekend and halfway through there were a ton of girls coming into the mens restroom... There was nothing threatening about it (although it is weird to turn around and have a lady standing at the door waiting for you to be done). If my wife was in the ladies restroom and a man started to walk in, I would for sure say something and if he did not stop I would take action. No question in my mind on that one

shrewsbury
06-12-2012, 03:56 PM
why would it have to be mean?

why would you not say, "hey that's the women's bathroom"?

perhaps they would say, "yikes, thanks for telling me"?

Star_Cards
06-12-2012, 04:56 PM
why would it have to be mean?

why would you not say, "hey that's the women's bathroom"?

perhaps they would say, "yikes, thanks for telling me"?

I agree, not sure why it would be mean. I did this once in the Fairbanks airport 4-5 years ago. I walked in and thought it was weird that there weren't urinals. lol. For some reason it never crossed my mind until after I walked out of the stall and started washing my hands. it's one of my smarter moments. :)


are there really that many men trying to sneak into women's bathrooms? I guess when you are in elementary school there's a draw to it, but that's more because it's off limits. I know there have been stories were guys hide in pit toilets and or install cameras in bathrooms, but those all seem to be very isolated.

mrveggieman
06-12-2012, 05:19 PM
I hate using public restrooms because of the smell, the funk and the overall unkeptness of it. I don't know how/why someone would go through the trouble of hiding in there to install a camera just to record something to get their kicks but I agree there are sickos that do stuff like that.

duane1969
06-12-2012, 05:38 PM
why would it have to be mean?

why would you not say, "hey that's the women's bathroom"?

perhaps they would say, "yikes, thanks for telling me"?

It wouldn't be mean at first. But if after pointing it out he insisted on continuing in it would get extremely mean very quickly.

duane1969
06-12-2012, 05:48 PM
are there really that many men trying to sneak into women's bathrooms? I guess when you are in elementary school there's a draw to it, but that's more because it's off limits. I know there have been stories were guys hide in pit toilets and or install cameras in bathrooms, but those all seem to be very isolated.

Yes there are and no it isn't that isolated.

May 31, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V33lS-wbQEM
May 29,2012 http://www.havasunews.com/articles/2012/05/29/news/doc4fc448cc1ffb1568003006.txt
Feb. 19, 2012 http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/02/19/police-man-arrested-after-locking-himself-in-womens-bathroom/
March 16, 2012 http://everett.komonews.com/news/crime/729796-man-arrested-evcc-womens-bathroom-wearing-bra-wig
March 13, 2012 - This one is of special interest as he wore women's clothes into the women's bathroom to peep http://www.fox8live.com/Global/story.asp?S=17219194&clienttype=printable
April 23, 2012 http://thebannockalternative.com/wordpress/if-man-arrested-for-peering-into-bathroom-stalls/

These are just 6 issues that I found on the first page of a Google search and all occured within the last few months. If 6 were caught how many must go uncaught?

shrewsbury
06-12-2012, 06:20 PM
scary stuff

duane, i agree on the point something would happen quickly, but for me, it doesn't require me to be mean to protect myself or others, just requires action on my part, but quick actions nonetheless.

hawk2618
06-12-2012, 09:42 PM
Duane....glad you did some research on articles where men were caught.Thats my big beef about them using bathrooms they shouldn't be.If someone wants to be different,why should the public change their ways to accomadate them?? You want to be a transgender,go for it.But find other ways to relieve yourself if you really think you won't pass as the gender you are transforming into and are afraid you will be questioned.

Star_Cards
06-13-2012, 09:36 AM
Yes there are and no it isn't that isolated.

May 31, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V33lS-wbQEM
May 29,2012 http://www.havasunews.com/articles/2012/05/29/news/doc4fc448cc1ffb1568003006.txt
Feb. 19, 2012 http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2012/02/19/police-man-arrested-after-locking-himself-in-womens-bathroom/
March 16, 2012 http://everett.komonews.com/news/crime/729796-man-arrested-evcc-womens-bathroom-wearing-bra-wig
March 13, 2012 - This one is of special interest as he wore women's clothes into the women's bathroom to peep http://www.fox8live.com/Global/story.asp?S=17219194&clienttype=printable
April 23, 2012 http://thebannockalternative.com/wordpress/if-man-arrested-for-peering-into-bathroom-stalls/

These are just 6 issues that I found on the first page of a Google search and all occured within the last few months. If 6 were caught how many must go uncaught?

when you look at all of the amount of people who use public restrooms and the amount of public restrooms it's still pretty isolated. even with six people over the last few months, that's still isolated based off of the number of public restrooms where this could happen. I don't think the majority of the population are concerned about this when using a public restroom. People are definitely out there doing this sort of thing, but it's hardly an epidemic.

hawk2618
06-13-2012, 10:14 PM
Well.... if it happened to my daughter and the guy was caught,that would be 1 too many.The public shouldn't have to deal with this issue.If someone wants to change their sex....they better be ready to deal with the consequences,plain and simple.Next....we'll have someone wanting to look like an elephant and have flappy ears surgically applied and a small trunk for a nose.I mean....cmon...where does it end??

Star_Cards
06-14-2012, 09:36 AM
Well.... if it happened to my daughter and the guy was caught,that would be 1 too many.The public shouldn't have to deal with this issue.If someone wants to change their sex....they better be ready to deal with the consequences,plain and simple.Next....we'll have someone wanting to look like an elephant and have flappy ears surgically applied and a small trunk for a nose.I mean....cmon...where does it end??

actually there are people who do extreme alteration or body modifications. It's definitely a bit odd to normal society but it happens.

when you say "the public shouldn't have to deal with this issue" are you speaking of the issues like the video duane posted or is the issue you speak of people having sex changes?

hawk2618
06-14-2012, 11:14 PM
I don't agreee with sex changes PERIOD.Just because we have the capabilities to change sexes due to the advancement of science doesn't mean it should be done.If someone had wanted this procedure 100 yrs ago,not only couldn't it be done,but this person would've more than likely been under psychiatric care.

duane1969
06-15-2012, 01:55 AM
That is my beef. Hundreds, possibly even thousands of women are expected to tolerate the presence of an anotomical man in the women's bathroom for the benefit of one person. The masses should not be...