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View Full Version : Why do people feel the need to insult others who don't share their religious beliefs?



mrveggieman
06-27-2012, 12:02 PM
All thoughts and opinions are welcome.

duane1969
06-27-2012, 12:20 PM
In life I do not see this. On this board, I see it constantly. My guess is that people feel confident in their ability to insult and attack because they are hiding behind a keyboard. Naming no one specifically, there are people on this board that would never have the spine to speak the words that they type.

On a more general level, people attack religions that are different from their own because people have become more and more confident in the idea that their opinion is superior to everyone else's. Rarely do you see anyone concede a point or admit that they have changed their thinking on a subject. Just like our society and political system, harmony does not exist anymore.

People like to talk about the importance of being considerate of others, but from what I have seen, the more a person portrays themselves as being a considerate and open-minded person the less considerate and open-minded they really are.

shrewsbury
06-27-2012, 12:22 PM
I think it is easier to say people must be wrong rather than look inward at what is going on.

I also think people like to attach christians and jews because we are easy going and will let it slide, but you do not see this with islam.

also those that are not strong in their religion will always cling to what others interpret the bible to say and attack those who do not agree.

once people start quoting the bible and saying it is Gods word, well I just smile, because I know they did not do their own homework, they just copied off someone else or had someone do it for them.

mrveggieman
06-27-2012, 01:37 PM
My spin on it is that most religious fanatics are really insecure in their own religious beliefs. So by insulting someone else's faith it makes them feel better about their own religious insecurities. It's kind of like the guy who goes around picking on gays because he is uncomfortable with his own sexuality.

duane1969
06-27-2012, 01:52 PM
veggie I noticed your "dislikes" and noticed that you don't seem to have an issue with Christianphobia. Any reason why? You don't really think that only Jews and Muslims are attacked for their religious beliefs do you?

mrveggieman
06-27-2012, 01:59 PM
veggie I noticed your "dislikes" and noticed that you don't seem to have an issue with Christianphobia. Any reason why? You don't really think that only Jews and Muslims are attacked for their religious beliefs do you?


I have never heard of christianphobia before have you?

JustAlex
06-27-2012, 05:14 PM
veggie I noticed your "dislikes" and noticed that you don't seem to have an issue with Christianphobia. Any reason why? You don't really think that only Jews and Muslims are attacked for their religious beliefs do you?

"Christanphobia"?

LOL.

No where near the REAL "Islamaphobia" displayed in this country.

Quite frankly, you can all believe whatever you want to.

But when you involve public schools, public areas, public policy, and MY life, that's where I have a problem!

Gorillawits
06-27-2012, 06:43 PM
veggie I noticed your "dislikes" and noticed that you don't seem to have an issue with Christianphobia. Any reason why? You don't really think that only Jews and Muslims are attacked for their religious beliefs do you?

Everything is always blamed on the Jews, not Talmudic Judaism. Almost no one goes around bashing-insulting people that follow the Talmud. People just hate Jews, because of God's promise to Abraham. Talmudic Judiasm is just like all the other religons, that is why so many globalists are in bed with the Talmudics.

The Jews get the blame for the actions of Rothschild, Bernake, Greenspan, Bloomberg ect. All those men get their morals from the Talmud, not the Tanahk.






To answer the posters orginal question.
Jesus said alot of true things that insulted people. Why do you think they wanted wanted to stone him to death so many times? To shut him up.

*censored*
06-27-2012, 08:07 PM
Darn. I thought it had cleared up, and now it flares up again.

Wickabee
06-27-2012, 08:17 PM
Darn. I thought it had cleared up, and now it flares up again.
Hahahahaha


As to the question, the same reason people need to insult fans of other teams, supporters of other parties, people who like "the other" Cola, fans of bands they don't like, the list goes on.

People feel the need to insult each other over every single thing they disagree on. The amount of insults grows as passion for the topic grows. Being that religion is one of the always-hot-button-issues, people need to insult each other more than about, say, cola.

Gorillawits
06-27-2012, 09:49 PM
Darn. I thought it had cleared up, and now it flares up again.

Yes there you are again stalking every post, looking for an argument.

*censored*
06-27-2012, 10:28 PM
Yes there you are again stalking every post, looking for an argument.

I'm not stalking anything. Just trying to spread the truth. Not my fault if you won't listen to it.

Gorillawits
06-27-2012, 10:51 PM
I'm not stalking anything. Just trying to spread the truth. Not my fault if you won't listen to it.


Was your statement you first made here on this thread for me or just over the whole general post?

*censored*
06-27-2012, 10:57 PM
It doesn't matter how I answer. You'll spin it however you like.

Gorillawits
06-27-2012, 11:10 PM
It doesn't matter how I answer. You'll spin it however you like.

If it was intended for me then you were stalking my post. If it was for the whole thread then you were not and I misunderstood you and if I am wrong I am sorry.

OnePimpTiger
07-02-2012, 09:01 PM
All thoughts and opinions are welcome.

I assume you're referring to the anti-religious who insult the religious as well...


In life I do not see this. On this board, I see it constantly. My guess is that people feel confident in their ability to insult and attack because they are hiding behind a keyboard.

+1


People like to talk about the importance of being considerate of others, but from what I have seen, the more a person portrays themselves as being a considerate and open-minded person the less considerate and open-minded they really are.

+1,000...I'm so open-minded and anyone who believes the Bible is ignorant.

magic_bobcat
07-02-2012, 09:09 PM
Personally I think the answer is 2 fold.

1) I think it stems from tribal mentality of 'us against them'.

and 2) I think some people may over compensate their religion for doubt. They may be worried that they're not seen as a good enough [insert religion] so they try and convert non/other believers. Or they have a doubt like 'did I pick the right religion?'

Just my 2 cents.

drtom2005
07-02-2012, 09:13 PM
"I assume you're referring to the anti-religious who insult the religious as well..."

Well OPT, I have question for you. What exactly does this mean? Kind of like throwing a molotov cocktail on a somewhat civil discussion.

Every person is not "open-minded." There are people willing to change their postion on a topic if shown enough evidence. Different people need different levels of evidence to change their mind. Some more, then others. I am wondering if you ever change your mind on anything.

Star_Cards
07-02-2012, 11:59 PM
All of the opinions that I have and express on this board are also expressed in my every day life when specific discussions arise.

that said, I think discussions can get more heated when debating online for various reasons. While people here are familiar with other users there really isn't that personal relationship. In those cases, people are less likely to be diplomatic when discussing polarizing topics.

Star_Cards
07-03-2012, 12:03 AM
In life I do not see this. On this board, I see it constantly. My guess is that people feel confident in their ability to insult and attack because they are hiding behind a keyboard. Naming no one specifically, there are people on this board that would never have the spine to speak the words that they type.

On a more general level, people attack religions that are different from their own because people have become more and more confident in the idea that their opinion is superior to everyone else's. Rarely do you see anyone concede a point or admit that they have changed their thinking on a subject. Just like our society and political system, harmony does not exist anymore.

People like to talk about the importance of being considerate of others, but from what I have seen, the more a person portrays themselves as being a considerate and open-minded person the less considerate and open-minded they really are.

I see it in real life quite often. Maybe not as often because topics of religion aren't discussed as often as they are in the pages of this forum. I agree that some people speak much more freely and insensitively while typing, but disrespect for religious or non religious views are disrespected all the time.

Star_Cards
07-03-2012, 12:05 AM
"I assume you're referring to the anti-religious who insult the religious as well..."

Well OPT, I have question for you. What exactly does this mean? Kind of like throwing a molotov cocktail on a somewhat civil discussion.

Every person is not "open-minded." There are people willing to change their postion on a topic if shown enough evidence. Different people need different levels of evidence to change their mind. Some more, then others. I am wondering if you ever change your mind on anything.

I think OPTs question is valid although when I read the question I assumed that included people who are non religious. I do have an issue with the term anti religious if he was in fact using that to refer to anyone who doesn't have a religious belief or is atheist to be specific.

OnePimpTiger
07-04-2012, 12:12 AM
"I assume you're referring to the anti-religious who insult the religious as well..."

Well OPT, I have question for you. What exactly does this mean? Kind of like throwing a molotov cocktail on a somewhat civil discussion.

Every person is not "open-minded." There are people willing to change their postion on a topic if shown enough evidence. Different people need different levels of evidence to change their mind. Some more, then others. I am wondering if you ever change your mind on anything.

Good dr...oh how I've missed you.

How is that not a fair question? The person who started the thread is well known to speak against religion in this forum (I mean no slight by that, only a statement of fact). I simply want to clarify if he is asking a fair question of why do people of all religious views, religious or anti, insult people of opposing views or if it was the more narrow-minded approach of why do those who believe in a god insult people who don't, ignoring the fact that there are two sides to that coin.

And I most definitely do change my mind on many things...but some things never change resulting in a confirmed and validated mindset. Welcome back.


I think OPTs question is valid although when I read the question I assumed that included people who are non religious. I do have an issue with the term anti religious if he was in fact using that to refer to anyone who doesn't have a religious belief or is atheist to be specific.

I was referring to anyone against religion to one degree or another. I intentionally did not use the terms atheist or agnostic as I was intending to include those groups as well as all others that fall in that category. The point of my statement was that insults come from all beliefs on religion, positive, negative, or otherwise, not just from religious people toward non-religious people.

JWinn
07-04-2012, 12:29 AM
I don't think it has anything to do with religion myself.

In my experience, people who need to insult others, for any number of reasons, do so because they lack self respect and have low self esteem. Insulting others is how they make themselves feel better.

Religion is just one of the many excuses they use.

drtom2005
07-04-2012, 03:27 PM
[QUOTE=OnePimpTiger;11807727]Good dr...oh how I've missed you.

How is that not a fair question? The person who started the thread is well known to speak against religion in this forum (I mean no slight by that, only a statement of fact). I simply want to clarify if he is asking a fair question of why do people of all religious views, religious or anti, insult people of opposing views or if it was the more narrow-minded approach of why do those who believe in a god insult people who don't, ignoring the fact that there are two sides to that coin.

And I most definitely do change my mind on many things...but some things never change resulting in a confirmed and validated mindset. Welcome back.
QUOTE]


Well, I am glad you clarified because I really didn't get all of the above from your one statement. I'm glad to be back. Thanks for the welcome.

gladdyontherise
07-04-2012, 04:21 PM
People feel the need to insult other's beliefs/opinions because (in this case), like others have said people are behind a computer screen and get brave.

JustAlex
07-04-2012, 04:24 PM
I don't think it has anything to do with religion myself.

In my experience, people who need to insult others, for any number of reasons, do so because they lack self respect and have low self esteem. Insulting others is how they make themselves feel better.

Religion is just one of the many excuses they use.

NOPE!

I believe it's because religious people think that we are insulting THEM when we are NOT.

Calling the Bible a Book of Fairy Tales is NOT an insult to anyone!!!

It's an insult to a BOOK, not a person.....but if religious people want to associate themselves with a book with MANY errors and unscientific nonsense than that's their problem but they shouldn't think we're insulting them personally because some of us can clearly see what the bible really is!


When I say, "God is NOT Real" or "God is a fictional character the way leprechauns are fictional characters"....this is also NOT an insult to ANYONE...

OnePimpTiger
07-04-2012, 05:21 PM
NOPE!

I believe it's because religious people think that we are insulting THEM when we are NOT.

Calling the Bible a Book of Fairy Tales is NOT an insult to anyone!!!

It's an insult to a BOOK, not a person.....but if religious people want to associate themselves with a book with MANY errors and unscientific nonsense than that's their problem but they shouldn't think we're insulting them personally because some of us can clearly see what the bible really is!


When I say, "God is NOT Real" or "God is a fictional character the way leprechauns are fictional characters"....this is also NOT an insult to ANYONE...

Saying God is not real is not an insult, that is a statement of opinion. Belittling the foundation of someone's entire being by calling it fairy tales and comparing it to leprechauns is disrespectful and condescending. I think everyone (else) on either side of the debate will agree on that.

But, while I disagree with you, you did prove my point...so thank you for that.

JustAlex
07-04-2012, 05:35 PM
Saying God is not real is not an insult, that is a statement of opinion. Belittling the foundation of someone's entire being by calling it fairy tales and comparing it to leprechauns is disrespectful and condescending. I think everyone (else) on either side of the debate will agree on that.

But, while I disagree with you, you did prove my point...so thank you for that.
WHAT???

A 2000 year old book is the foundation of your being??

Then I guess you believe we should have slaves, since the bible clearly says it's OK, and I guess stoning people to death that work on the Sabbath, or are homosexual is ALSO OK, right?


NO....you're wrong, if you feel offended by the fact that I call the bible a book of fairy tales then you are placing that book in far too high esteem.

I love the Lord of the Rings, I enjoyed reading it so much I read it 2 more times after I finished it the first time.

Can you imagine if I got as offended as you or any other christian when an outsider called LOTR a stupid book not worthy of praise???

magic_bobcat
07-04-2012, 07:20 PM
WHAT???

A 2000 year old book is the foundation of your being??

Then I guess you believe we should have slaves, since the bible clearly says it's OK, and I guess stoning people to death that work on the Sabbath, or are homosexual is ALSO OK, right?


NO....you're wrong, if you feel offended by the fact that I call the bible a book of fairy tales then you are placing that book in far too high esteem.

I love the Lord of the Rings, I enjoyed reading it so much I read it 2 more times after I finished it the first time.

Can you imagine if I got as offended as you or any other christian when an outsider called LOTR a stupid book not worthy of praise???

Dude I think you're way off base on what this thread is about.

We're not discussing the legitimacy of any religious book, so don't fixate on Christianity.

We are discussing why people insult others religions and you've come on with all this 'fairy tale' stuff, its just not called for. And of course a Christian is going to place the Bible in high praise, thinking they're not is pretty dumb.

Oh and btw before you come back insulting me assuming Im a Christian I'm not. I just think you're in the wrong thats all.

drtom2005
07-04-2012, 07:34 PM
Saying God is not real is not an insult, that is a statement of opinion. Belittling the foundation of someone's entire being by calling it fairy tales and comparing it to leprechauns is disrespectful and condescending. I think everyone (else) on either side of the debate will agree on that.

But, while I disagree with you, you did prove my point...so thank you for that.

What do you say to an atheist/other religous person that does not believe in your personal god? Or if you do not say anything to them, what does your pastor/religuos leader say about someone not in your religous group? I do not know which religion you are, so I am not going to assume anything.

JustAlex
07-04-2012, 08:11 PM
Dude I think you're way off base on what this thread is about.

We're not discussing the legitimacy of any religious book, so don't fixate on Christianity.

We are discussing why people insult others religions and you've come on with all this 'fairy tale' stuff, its just not called for. And of course a Christian is going to place the Bible in high praise, thinking they're not is pretty dumb.

Oh and btw before you come back insulting me assuming Im a Christian I'm not. I just think you're in the wrong thats all.
Um....did you read the previous comment BEFORE the one you are quoting?

I was making an EXAMPLE...and OnePimpTiger completely played right into it.

Religious people BELIEVE they are being offended when they actually AREN'T!


If I read the bible and I come across many things that could NEVER happen in real life, naturally I might think this is a fictional book filled with fairy tales.

If anyone is offended by that comment, that is too bad, but my "insult" is toward a BOOK not an individual.


The point of this is to SHOW that religious people are EASILY offended at anything critical said toward their religion, and it's ridiculous since most of the time the "insults" are not towards them.

HOWEVER.....if I said "All Christians are stupid"......then I AM insulting them directly.....but I don't do that.

ensbergcollector
07-04-2012, 08:12 PM
i think the issue is when people speak to anyone with an attitude of "i am way smarter than you" and are incapable of having a conversation, either in person or online, without being extremely condescending in their tone and attitude. there are those who post here (on both sides) who are capable of posting differing opinions while still respecting everyone. And there are those (on both sides) who are unable to post anything without a "i am the smartest guy in the room" attitude.

drtom2005
07-04-2012, 08:32 PM
i think the issue is when people speak to anyone with an attitude of "i am way smarter than you" and are incapable of having a conversation, either in person or online, without being extremely condescending in their tone and attitude. there are those who post here (on both sides) who are capable of posting differing opinions while still respecting everyone. And there are those (on both sides) who are unable to post anything without a "i am the smartest guy in the room" attitude.

How can anyone tell how a person feels, totally, based on what they type? Language requires looking someone in the face. Maybe I'm wrong.

magic_bobcat
07-04-2012, 08:52 PM
Um....did you read the previous comment BEFORE the one you are quoting?

I was making an EXAMPLE...and OnePimpTiger completely played right into it.

Religious people BELIEVE they are being offended when they actually AREN'T!


If I read the bible and I come across many things that could NEVER happen in real life, naturally I might think this is a fictional book filled with fairy tales.

If anyone is offended by that comment, that is too bad, but my "insult" is toward a BOOK not an individual.


The point of this is to SHOW that religious people are EASILY offended at anything critical said toward their religion, and it's ridiculous since most of the time the "insults" are not towards them.

HOWEVER.....if I said "All Christians are stupid"......then I AM insulting them directly.....but I don't do that.

Just because YOU worked out HOW to CAPITALISE words does NOT make your point ANYMORE valid.

Ok ok, so you 'insult' the Bible and not the individual and that should be ok? Even if it is the basis of their belief system?

So if I said 'the American Bill of Rights is a white supremacist documentation that has formed an innate culture of rascism' would that be ok? Because I would not be personally attacking Americans but I would be implying that they're racists. Like you are inferring that Christians are idiots for believing in 'fairy tales'

(Others please note that I do not believe the above statement, I just wanted to try and make a point)

ensbergcollector
07-04-2012, 09:04 PM
How can anyone tell how a person feels, totally, based on what they type? Language requires looking someone in the face. Maybe I'm wrong.

that is why i referred to people's attitude. attitude can come across very clearly via text and does not require face to face interaction.

drtom2005
07-04-2012, 09:09 PM
that is why i referred to people's attitude. attitude can come across very clearly via text and does not require face to face interaction.

Personally, I think context can become misinterpeted through texting/typing. Is this person making a joke? Are they serious? Are they angry about something? Did they really mean the smiley face, etc? It is why I refuse to text people unless it is about business. It is why I ask people for clarification on here, sometimes. I can't tell if they are serious. A smile, frown, shrug gives much away.

magic_bobcat
07-04-2012, 09:11 PM
Personally, I think context can become misinterpeted through texting/typing. Is this person making a joke? Are they serious, etc? It is why I refused to text people unless it is about business. It is why I ask people for clarification on here, sometimes. I can't tell if they are serious. A smile, frown, shrug gives much away.

+1

ensbergcollector
07-04-2012, 09:40 PM
Personally, I think context can become misinterpeted through texting/typing. Is this person making a joke? Are they serious? Are they angry about something? Did they really mean the smiley face, etc? It is why I refuse to text people unless it is about business. It is why I ask people for clarification on here, sometimes. I can't tell if they are serious. A smile, frown, shrug gives much away.

while i do agree to an extent, if you can read through these threads and think that you can't know what some of the people here really think, i don't know what to tell you.

Wickabee
07-04-2012, 09:44 PM
Um....did you read the previous comment BEFORE the one you are quoting?

I was making an EXAMPLE...and OnePimpTiger completely played right into it.

Religious people BELIEVE they are being offended when they actually AREN'T!


If I read the bible and I come across many things that could NEVER happen in real life, naturally I might think this is a fictional book filled with fairy tales.

If anyone is offended by that comment, that is too bad, but my "insult" is toward a BOOK not an individual.


The point of this is to SHOW that religious people are EASILY offended at anything critical said toward their religion, and it's ridiculous since most of the time the "insults" are not towards them.

HOWEVER.....if I said "All Christians are stupid"......then I AM insulting them directly.....but I don't do that.

The thing is just because you don't actually say, "...and the fact that you believe [X] makes you an idiot!" doesn't mean the sentiment isn't put across. Also, it doesn't totally matter what your intention is, the listener determines offensiveness and insult, not the speaker.

drtom2005
07-04-2012, 09:46 PM
while i do agree to an extent, if you can read through these threads and think that you can't know what some of the people here really think, i don't know what to tell you.

No, I never assume that I, totally, know a person or what they think. Many things could cause someone to change an opinion or belief. No one has the ability to read someone's mind. Personally, I believe most of the people on the P&R forum are cool. They can discuss their feelings and beliefs without taking too much insult. It is a sign of maturity. I also think most of the people on this forum would like hanging out together. We are all cardboard dorks. LOL.

mrveggieman
07-04-2012, 09:48 PM
Good dr...oh how I've missed you.

How is that not a fair question? The person who started the thread is well known to speak against religion in this forum (I mean no slight by that, only a statement of fact). I simply want to clarify if he is asking a fair question of why do people of all religious views, religious or anti, insult people of opposing views or if it was the more narrow-minded approach of why do those who believe in a god insult people who don't, ignoring the fact that there are two sides to that coin.

And I most definitely do change my mind on many things...but some things never change resulting in a confirmed and validated mindset. Welcome back.



I was referring to anyone against religion to one degree or another. I intentionally did not use the terms atheist or agnostic as I was intending to include those groups as well as all others that fall in that category. The point of my statement was that insults come from all beliefs on religion, positive, negative, or otherwise, not just from religious people toward non-religious people.


I am not against any religion, nor am I against anyone peacefully practicing their chosen religion but I do have a hatred for all religious fanatics regardless of what religion they claim.

JustAlex
07-04-2012, 10:10 PM
Just because YOU worked out HOW to CAPITALISE words does NOT make your point ANYMORE valid.

Ok ok, so you 'insult' the Bible and not the individual and that should be ok? Even if it is the basis of their belief system?

So if I said 'the American Bill of Rights is a white supremacist documentation that has formed an innate culture of rascism' would that be ok? Because I would not be personally attacking Americans but I would be implying that they're racists. Like you are inferring that Christians are idiots for believing in 'fairy tales'

(Others please note that I do not believe the above statement, I just wanted to try and make a point)
No need to mention the way I type, if you don't like what I'm saying just attack my points.....

OK, you would need to SHOW how the American bill of rights are racist....if you can show it, then fine.....but if you can't then this example would not be relevant!

I CAN show that the bible has stories which can NOT happen in real life such as humans living 900 years or a talking snake, or a man walking on water.

If I'm only insulting for the sake of insulting then yeah.....that's WRONG....but I have REAL claims against what I'm insulting.

JustAlex
07-04-2012, 10:24 PM
The thing is just because you don't actually say, "...and the fact that you believe [X] makes you an idiot!" doesn't mean the sentiment isn't put across. Also, it doesn't totally matter what your intention is, the listener determines offensiveness and insult, not the speaker.

OK....now this is a much better defense.

Let me address it.

If I say that the bible is a book filled with fairy tales, I am implying that the bible is NOT factual.

At no point am I saying that if you believe the stories you are an idiot....after all, the bible is interpreted in MANY different ways, certain christians believe that some of the stories are 100% allegorical and not literally.

But I digress, you are right that the listener determines offensiveness and insults.....thus I return to my original claim..... Christians and other religious people are easily offended!

ensbergcollector
07-04-2012, 11:31 PM
OK....now this is a much better defense.

Let me address it.

If I say that the bible is a book filled with fairy tales, I am implying that the bible is NOT factual.

At no point am I saying that if you believe the stories you are an idiot....after all, the bible is interpreted in MANY different ways, certain christians believe that some of the stories are 100% allegorical and not literally.

But I digress, you are right that the listener determines offensiveness and insults.....thus I return to my original claim..... Christians and other religious people are easily offended!

alex - honest question...do you really think that you don't treat people of faith with a horrible attitude and extreme condescension?

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 12:07 AM
OK....now this is a much better defense.

Let me address it.

If I say that the bible is a book filled with fairy tales, I am implying that the bible is NOT factual.

At no point am I saying that if you believe the stories you are an idiot....after all, the bible is interpreted in MANY different ways, certain christians believe that some of the stories are 100% allegorical and not literally.

But I digress, you are right that the listener determines offensiveness and insults.....thus I return to my original claim..... Christians and other religious people are easily offended!

Just as, I'm sure, you are when someone speaks about something you care deeply about in the same manner.

JustAlex
07-05-2012, 12:15 AM
alex - honest question...do you really think that you don't treat people of faith with a horrible attitude and extreme condescension?
This is a no-win question for me to answer.

If I say yes you will have proven that I'm treating you and other people of faith in a bad way.

If I say no you won't believe me and or you'll come up with some excuse as to why you don't believe me.


I'm I aggressive at times....YES!

Why?

Because I was a christian for so long, I know exactly how it closes the mind and doesn't allow people to question their beliefs, everything is supposed to be "set in stone" and any critique is automatically shunned.

I truly believe that Christianity along with every other major religion is 100% man made as a way to explain what people in those times could not explain.

Living in the 21st century should not be this way.....we understand whether, space, time, etc. a lot more than we did thousands of years ago.

Religion is divisive.....if you want to believe in god, I can understand that, but organized religion does so much harm, it's hard for me to say anything nice about it.

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 12:28 AM
This is a no-win question for me to answer.

If I say yes you will have proven that I'm treating you and other people of faith in a bad way.

If I say no you won't believe me and or you'll come up with some excuse as to why you don't believe me.


I'm I aggressive at times....YES!

Why?

Because I was a christian for so long, I know exactly how it closes the mind and doesn't allow people to question their beliefs, everything is supposed to be "set in stone" and any critique is automatically shunned.

I truly believe that Christianity along with every other major religion is 100% man made as a way to explain what people in those times could not explain.

Living in the 21st century should not be this way.....we understand whether, space, time, etc. a lot more than we did thousands of years ago.

Religion is divisive.....if you want to believe in god, I can understand that, but organized religion does so much harm, it's hard for me to say anything nice about it.

So is that the fault of God, or religion?

At the end of the day, you can quote all the science you want, but you're trusting in your faith that there isn't a God showing you this evidence "against" him. You may not see it as faith but, if there is a God, one would think he would have that power, so who's to say he isn't using it? Lack of a reason we can understand isn't proof this is impossible.

Face it. You believe in science because someone told you some stuff and, after looking at it, you agreed. People believe in different religions for the EXACT same reasons. Someone told them about it and they believe it to be true. Just because you're looking at different evidence and don't trust in their evidence means nothing. They think the same of you.

Now I'm not denying what you've said above is true for some, but nowhere near all. To not believe in God or the Bible simply because of what religion, which is run by men, not God, have done to them is very short-sighted. If you have other reasons, the fine, but that is not reason enough for anything other than to denounce religion, not God, and many people don't see a difference between the Lord and His Book.

Therefor you can see that when you speak of the Bible, to many, you're speaking of God. When you say the Bible isn't factual, what you're really saying is the God in the Bible doesn't exist. While you may feel this way, you have to understand why Christians get offended in these cases, and it has nothing to do with being "easily offended"

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 12:37 AM
OK....now this is a much better defense.

Let me address it.

If I say that the bible is a book filled with fairy tales, I am implying that the bible is NOT factual.

At no point am I saying that if you believe the stories you are an idiot....after all, the bible is interpreted in MANY different ways, certain christians believe that some of the stories are 100% allegorical and not literally.

But I digress, you are right that the listener determines offensiveness and insults.....thus I return to my original claim..... Christians and other religious people are easily offended!

Re: The bolded part. Let me get this straight"

You: The Bible is nothing but fairy tales!

Christian: Excuse me, I believe in everything in the Bible. I believe the lessons are true and the stories actually happened. I find your comment offensive (paraphrasing, of course)

You: I'm not saying anything about you, but all those stories you believe are fairy tales.

Christian: Well, it seems to me only children and idiots would believe fairy tales are ture. Are you calling me a child? an idiot?

You: No, I would never, I'm just saying these stories you believe in are completely false. Children's stories

Christian: So you're saying I believe in children's stories?

You: Again, I'm not saying anything about you.


You see, you attack the Bible and you attack every single core belief of a Christian. If someone told you everything you believe in was just fairy tale mumbo jumbo and the most important being in your life didn't exist, would you not feel the person was calling you stupid? Would you not take offense? I honestly think you would. I honestly think anyone with any sort of integrity in their beliefs would.

JustAlex
07-05-2012, 01:21 AM
Face it. You believe in science because someone told you some stuff and, after looking at it, you agreed. People believe in different religions for the EXACT same reasons. Someone told them about it and they believe it to be true. Just because you're looking at different evidence and don't trust in their evidence means nothing. They think the same of you.
OK, yes, someone did tell me about science and I later looked it up and agreed with it.

But it's NOT the same with christianity and other religions.

Science IS testable, supernatural claims are NOT testable.

At the end of the day, this is what it comes down to.....testable vs. untestable.....Reason and logic vs. faith

I have REASONABLE faith in certain things....yes, it's usually things that are demonstrable.

For example, I can have "Faith" in my favorite team that they will win, because it is demonstrable.

But when you have "Faith" in God for example, that is not demonstrable, it is equivalent to having faith in leprechauns....was that offensive just now?

Why?....I'm simply using logic, there is equal amount of proof for god as there is for leprechauns, christians will read this comment and say I'm being offensive toward their beliefs, but I'm simply using my brain to come up with an ANALOGY to explain why I don't believe in god, it is NOT meant to insult, it is meant to show why I don't agree with their position.

ensbergcollector
07-05-2012, 01:26 AM
I wasnt trying to back you in to a corner. I honestly wonder how you think you talk to people of faith. If you think you are not condescending and do not act like you are smarter and better than them then I will believe.you. Just wondered how you.percieved your own attitude or lack there of.

This is a no-win question for me to answer.

If I say yes you will have proven that I'm treating you and other people of faith in a bad way.

If I say no you won't believe me and or you'll come up with some excuse as to why you don't believe me.


I'm I aggressive at times....YES!

Why?

Because I was a christian for so long, I know exactly how it closes the mind and doesn't allow people to question their beliefs, everything is supposed to be "set in stone" and any critique is automatically shunned.

I truly believe that Christianity along with every other major religion is 100% man made as a way to explain what people in those times could not explain.

Living in the 21st century should not be this way.....we understand whether, space, time, etc. a lot more than we did thousands of years ago.

Religion is divisive.....if you want to believe in god, I can understand that, but organized religion does so much harm, it's hard for me to say anything nice about it.

JustAlex
07-05-2012, 01:36 AM
You see, you attack the Bible and you attack every single core belief of a Christian. If someone told you everything you believe in was just fairy tale mumbo jumbo and the most important being in your life didn't exist, would you not feel the person was calling you stupid? Would you not take offense? I honestly think you would. I honestly think anyone with any sort of integrity in their beliefs would.
OK, so what would be my "core beliefs" in respect to religion and faith?

Well, I'll list some of them:

I believe religion is dangerous, I believe the only way forward is to leave bronze age mentality in the past, I believe humans are capable of explaining our origins without the need of the supernatural, I believe if "god" does exists he is most certainly NOT the christian god or any other religious god that man has made up.

There, I listed a few, I guarantee that any mockery at any of these points would not make me feel insulted.....if anything it would allow me to have a discussion, it would allow me to use my brain in order to evaluate any and all criticisms.

This is what I lacked when I was a christian.....I remember when people would say the things I now say and I would also feel offended.

I NEVER looked into the criticisms, I automatically thought that they were wrong but I wouldn't bother actually looking into the things they would say.

This is the HUGE difference now that I'm a "free thinker", I don't accept things on face value, I research, I have doubts, I am skeptical.

I'm not 100% sold on everything science says, but for the moment (Until we get more evidence) I do agree with many of the theories it has resulted in.

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 03:25 AM
It doesn't matter what your beliefs actually are, and not everyone looks at things the same way you do. It doesn't make you, or them right or wrong, just different. Not everyone has the same "problem" you did. Many religious people look at it and decide legitimately what they believe. If you feel you weren't a free thinker, that's your issue, though not an uncommon one and one I can relate to. Many use the words "brainwashed" and "indoctrinated" and if that's how they feel that's valid for them not everyone.

magic_bobcat
07-05-2012, 05:18 AM
OK, so what would be my "core beliefs" in respect to religion and faith?

Well, I'll list some of them:

I believe religion is dangerous, I believe the only way forward is to leave bronze age mentality in the past, I believe humans are capable of explaining our origins without the need of the supernatural, I believe if "god" does exists he is most certainly NOT the christian god or any other religious god that man has made up.

There, I listed a few, I guarantee that any mockery at any of these points would not make me feel insulted.....if anything it would allow me to have a discussion, it would allow me to use my brain in order to evaluate any and all criticisms.

This is what I lacked when I was a christian.....I remember when people would say the things I now say and I would also feel offended.

I NEVER looked into the criticisms, I automatically thought that they were wrong but I wouldn't bother actually looking into the things they would say.

This is the HUGE difference now that I'm a "free thinker", I don't accept things on face value, I research, I have doubts, I am skeptical.

I'm not 100% sold on everything science says, but for the moment (Until we get more evidence) I do agree with many of the theories it has resulted in.

Dude you have interesting points, some I agree with, I just think you need to be a little more tactful.

MadMan1978
07-05-2012, 05:29 AM
alex - honest question...do you really think that you don't treat people of faith with a horrible attitude and extreme condescension?
From my view point

He treats with with the same respect and attitude as he treats them....

Star_Cards
07-05-2012, 08:56 AM
Face it. You believe in science because someone told you some stuff and, after looking at it, you agreed. People believe in different religions for the EXACT same reasons. Someone told them about it and they believe it to be true. Just because you're looking at different evidence and don't trust in their evidence means nothing. They think the same of you.

why do you and lots of other people think that non believers treat science like it is their religion. It's not, for me at least. Science has proven some truths but if new data is brought to change something within the scientific world that research is brought in and typically used as a tool to form new ideals about a certain scientific principle. Religion is completely opposite of that. Science is not a religion nor is it something that most people base their lives on like many do with a specific religion. Science is an ever evolving entity where new things are always being learned and theories are being revised and reformed to best follow what a person has learned within a specific realm of science.

Star_Cards
07-05-2012, 09:03 AM
It doesn't matter what your beliefs actually are, and not everyone looks at things the same way you do. It doesn't make you, or them right or wrong, just different. Not everyone has the same "problem" you did. Many religious people look at it and decide legitimately what they believe. If you feel you weren't a free thinker, that's your issue, though not an uncommon one and one I can relate to. Many use the words "brainwashed" and "indoctrinated" and if that's how they feel that's valid for them not everyone.

This is the beauty of the united states. Everyone has the freedom to believe whatever they want. Because they have that right our government shouldn't govern by one primary religion. People should recognize the difference between having freedom of religion and having a government that doesn't govern by one specific religion, even if the countries majority happens to have this faith. A lot of people think that if our government doesn't rule by christian code that christians are some how being persecuted or refused their rights to express their faith. That simple isn't true.

mrveggieman
07-05-2012, 09:07 AM
why do you and lots of other people think that non believers treat science like it is their religion. It's not, for me at least. Science has proven some truths but if new data is brought to change something within the scientific world that research is brought in and typically used as a tool to form new ideals about a certain scientific principle. Religion is completely opposite of that. Science is not a religion nor is it something that most people base their lives on like many do with a specific religion. Science is an ever evolving entity where new things are always being learned and theories are being revised and reformed to best follow what a person has learned within a specific realm of science.

Agree. Not picking on justalex but some atheists do treat science and atheism like their religion. I don't know but to me it appears that they are looking for something spiritual and are grasping at straws. Science is science not a religion. I believe in both God and science. Science is always changing and I am always looking for the truth about God as well as answers to questions that neither religion nor science have yet to answer. I also believe that I will continue to have questions and seek the truth until the day that I die.

mrveggieman
07-05-2012, 09:09 AM
This is the beauty of the united states. Everyone has the freedom to believe whatever they want. Because they have that right our government shouldn't govern by one primary religion. People should recognize the difference between having freedom of religion and having a government that doesn't govern by one specific religion, even if the countries majority happens to have this faith. A lot of people think that if our government doesn't rule by christian code that christians are some how being persecuted or refused their rights to express their faith. That simple isn't true.

The funny thing about that is that some but not all christians make fun of muslim countries that are ruled by islamic law but would have no problem if the united states ruled by christian law, repealed the 1st amendment and outlawed every religion except for christanity.

ensbergcollector
07-05-2012, 09:37 AM
From my view point

He treats with with the same respect and attitude as he treats them....

i would expect nothing else and everyone is entitled to their opinion.

ensbergcollector
07-05-2012, 09:39 AM
The funny thing about that is that some but not all christians make fun of muslim countries that are ruled by islamic law but would have no problem if the united states ruled by christian law, repealed the 1st amendment and outlawed every religion except for christanity.

you really need to stop. you spend so much time claiming things that have next to no basis in fact and you only use these outlandish statements to make some point that is false. while i do not doubt that there are christians out there who would feel that way but you keep trying to use this argument to say there is no difference in muslim led countries and ours.

mrveggieman
07-05-2012, 09:42 AM
you really need to stop. you spend so much time claiming things that have next to no basis in fact and you only use these outlandish statements to make some point that is false. while i do not doubt that there are christians out there who would feel that way but you keep trying to use this argument to say there is no difference in muslim led countries and ours.

Right now the laws as they stand call for freedom of religion. However despite you turning a blind eye you know that there is a fringe element that wants to turn america into it's own personal christian taliban. That will happen over my dead body.

magic_bobcat
07-05-2012, 11:47 AM
Right now the laws as they stand call for freedom of religion. However despite you turning a blind eye you know that there is a fringe element that wants to turn america into it's own personal christian taliban. That will happen over my dead body.

I find it interesting to have freedom of religion and yet 'in God we trust' on the money. Paradox?

Tivo32
07-05-2012, 11:48 AM
Right now the laws as they stand call for freedom of religion. However despite you turning a blind eye you know that there is a fringe element that wants to turn america into it's own personal christian taliban. That will happen over my dead body.

I agree with you that there is a fringe element that does want that. But a fringe element shouldn't define a whole group of people. Most of the time that fringe is the loudest voice, but it doesn't speak for the majority.

mrveggieman
07-05-2012, 12:18 PM
I agree with you that there is a fringe element that does want that. But a fringe element shouldn't define a whole group of people. Most of the time that fringe is the loudest voice, but it doesn't speak for the majority.


Agreed!

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 12:50 PM
why do you and lots of other people think that non believers treat science like it is their religion. It's not, for me at least. Science has proven some truths but if new data is brought to change something within the scientific world that research is brought in and typically used as a tool to form new ideals about a certain scientific principle. Religion is completely opposite of that. Science is not a religion nor is it something that most people base their lives on like many do with a specific religion. Science is an ever evolving entity where new things are always being learned and theories are being revised and reformed to best follow what a person has learned within a specific realm of science.

I made a comparison, not saying you treat it like religion, learn the difference and read again, please.

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 12:55 PM
Agree. Not picking on justalex but some atheists do treat science and atheism like their religion. I don't know but to me it appears that they are looking for something spiritual and are grasping at straws. Science is science not a religion. I believe in both God and science. Science is always changing and I am always looking for the truth about God as well as answers to questions that neither religion nor science have yet to answer. I also believe that I will continue to have questions and seek the truth until the day that I die.

So you're saying that to you it seems they're grasping at straws?

to you?

Then that must be the absolute truth and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong, right? So it's okay to talk to them like they're children and call them idiots? No

My point is the "anti" religion crowd tends to have very little tact with religious folk, but act like they have no idea why religious folk get upset when they have no tact. It's almost like you guys don't realize you have no tact. For example, Alex didn't seem to understand why Christian take personal offense to comments such as "the Bible is nothing but fairy tales". I'm trying to explain why it is. I don't know why you feel the need to stand in the way of understanding. You've pretty obviously missed the point of my posts,

Tivo32
07-05-2012, 01:07 PM
My point is the "anti" religion crowd tends to have very little tact with religious folk, but act like they have no idea why religious folk get upset when they have no tact.

This and many other of your points in this thread are carefully and wonderfully worded and get your points across in a fair manner. I, for one, appreciate it incredibly so.

Star_Cards
07-05-2012, 01:09 PM
Agree. Not picking on justalex but some atheists do treat science and atheism like their religion. I don't know but to me it appears that they are looking for something spiritual and are grasping at straws. Science is science not a religion. I believe in both God and science. Science is always changing and I am always looking for the truth about God as well as answers to questions that neither religion nor science have yet to answer. I also believe that I will continue to have questions and seek the truth until the day that I die.

I can't speak to others but can see why that could be how it's viewed. I think a lot of that is based off of our use of scientific theories and known scientific rules to debate a lot of religious ideals, but it's not something that I consume myself with or something that I base how I live my life. I have little invested in science so if it's adjusted or new finding come about I don't reject those and blinding follow what was originally said to be the "truth".

Star_Cards
07-05-2012, 01:11 PM
The funny thing about that is that some but not all christians make fun of muslim countries that are ruled by islamic law but would have no problem if the united states ruled by christian law, repealed the 1st amendment and outlawed every religion except for christanity.

I agree it is very hypocritical. I think a lot of christians think this country should be ran based on their religious beliefs.

Star_Cards
07-05-2012, 01:18 PM
you really need to stop. you spend so much time claiming things that have next to no basis in fact and you only use these outlandish statements to make some point that is false. while i do not doubt that there are christians out there who would feel that way but you keep trying to use this argument to say there is no difference in muslim led countries and ours.

his claim most definitely has some basis in fact. to be clear, he didn't say "all" or "most". He said "some". When you talk to people about gay marriage and say that it should be our countries rule to ban gay marriage based off of a religious text, that is proof that people want to rule the country by christian ideology. Now, I do agree that it's not exactly similar to other countries that have used religion (islam included) to greatly oppress their citizens. I'm not sure he's saying that they would be exactly the same when it comes to oppression of certain groups more than he;s saying it would be the same by having a religion rule the countries laws.

Star_Cards
07-05-2012, 01:19 PM
I find it interesting to have freedom of religion and yet 'in God we trust' on the money. Paradox?

I agree that in god we trust should not be on our currency nor should it be in our pledge of allegiance. Although God is a rather vague term as well. There are many Gods. although we know the one that is referenced.

Star_Cards
07-05-2012, 01:31 PM
I made a comparison, not saying you treat it like religion, learn the difference and read again, please.

my apologies. When you said "You believe in science because someone told you some stuff" it read like you were saying science was our belief like religion is yours. Not really sure why you had to be so rude in your reply to tell me to "learn the difference". Either way, what science means to me and what religion means to religious people is not comparable at all. I have no vested interest in science and could care less if scientific theories are altered or found to be completely wrong. If a theory happens to be 100% proven wrong I will not still cling to that just because it's something that I grew up knowing as true.

let's take your quote.
"You believe in science because someone told you some stuff "

people don't believe science because people have told us some stuff. Sure a lot of scientific data is out of most of our realms of comprehension but the thing about science is that it can be tested and actually shown. religion is the "stuff that someone told you".

Star_Cards
07-05-2012, 01:39 PM
So you're saying that to you it seems they're grasping at straws?

to you?

Then that must be the absolute truth and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong, right? So it's okay to talk to them like they're children and call them idiots? No

My point is the "anti" religion crowd tends to have very little tact with religious folk, but act like they have no idea why religious folk get upset when they have no tact. It's almost like you guys don't realize you have no tact. For example, Alex didn't seem to understand why Christian take personal offense to comments such as "the Bible is nothing but fairy tales". I'm trying to explain why it is. I don't know why you feel the need to stand in the way of understanding. You've pretty obviously missed the point of my posts,

I agree that calling the bible a set of fairy tales is offensive. the term fairy tale has a negative connotation and lends itself to dealing with juvenile stories. I tend to see them as fables. It's much less of a negative connotation and they typically do have a lesson.

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 01:42 PM
my apologies. When you said "You believe in science because someone told you some stuff" it read like you were saying science was our belief like religion is yours. Not really sure why you had to be so rude in your reply to tell me to "learn the difference". Either way, what science means to me and what religion means to religious people is not comparable at all. I have no vested interest in science and could care less if scientific theories are altered or found to be completely wrong. If a theory happens to be 100% proven wrong I will not still cling to that just because it's something that I grew up knowing as true.

let's take your quote.
"You believe in science because someone told you some stuff "

people don't believe science because people have told us some stuff. Sure a lot of scientific data is out of most of our realms of comprehension but the thing about science is that it can be tested and actually shown. religion is the "stuff that someone told you".

In the beginning someone, likely a science teacher, taught you some things and that's where it started. You accept science as the way things are and that started somewhere. I'm not saying you just believe what you're told, I'm not an idiot. But the same is true for many religious people. The fact you don't accept their "proof" doesn't make it any less valid than your "proof", which many of them view as invalid. The two sides can't agree on anything because they're never having the same conversation. Science = physical world. Religion = spiritual world. Because there is no scientific evidence for the spiritual world, you dismiss it as tomfoolery (or whatever term you like). The problem with using science as proof for no God is that, if there were a God, then science would be a construct of his. Lack of evidence is not proof of lack of existence.

But that's neither here nor there. My point to Alex was when you insult the Bible you are, in effect, insulting those who believe in the Bible.

ETA:
Religion is not just "what someone told you". Why do you, and a lot of people, think it's impossible to believe in God after putting some thought into it? Why do you think anyone who believes in God must have been indoctrinated and brainwashed and is just parroting what they've told? Do you not realize a lot of people put much thought into it and not only believe in God but follow an organized religion because they think it's right?

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 01:42 PM
I agree that calling the bible a set of fairy tales is offensive. the term fairy tale has a negative connotation and lends itself to dealing with juvenile stories. I tend to see them as fables. It's much less of a negative connotation and they typically do have a lesson.

It's pretty much the exact same term. The connotation is only slightly better on "fable" and only because of Aesop.

habsheaven
07-05-2012, 01:44 PM
Personally, my tactfulness ends when the conversation about religion begins. That's why I do not have these discussions with family members that do believe. What purpose does it serve to have the discussion if both sides are not allowed to express how they actually feel?

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 01:46 PM
Personally, my tactfulness ends when the conversation about religion begins. That's why I do not have these discussions with family members that do believe. What purpose does it serve to have the discussion if both sides are not allowed to express how they actually feel?

Is it impossible for you to talk about a subject without being tactless about the other side?

habsheaven
07-05-2012, 01:50 PM
Is it impossible for you to talk about a subject without being tactless about the other side?

No, not impossible. Here's a question for you. How would you propose a non-believer describe the Bible in a way acceptable to a believer without giving an impression that encourages their belief?

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 02:01 PM
No, not impossible. Here's a question for you. How would you propose a non-believer describe the Bible in a way acceptable to a believer without giving an impression that encourages their belief?

How do you propose doing that without discouraging their beliefs? You shouldn't want to do either.
Also, a lot of "I think"s comes in handy.

This kind of reminds me of a saying. "Tact is the ability to describe others as they see themselves.

JustAlex
07-05-2012, 02:07 PM
Dude you have interesting points, some I agree with, I just think you need to be a little more tactful.
Fair enough.

I accept any and all criticisms and advice given to me about my comments on this forum.

I know I can be aggressive and sometimes I might even be a jerk, although I can promise that insulting people is NOT and will never be my objective.


Agree. Not picking on justalex but some atheists do treat science and atheism like their religion. I don't know but to me it appears that they are looking for something spiritual and are grasping at straws. Science is science not a religion. I believe in both God and science. Science is always changing and I am always looking for the truth about God as well as answers to questions that neither religion nor science have yet to answer. I also believe that I will continue to have questions and seek the truth until the day that I die.
OK, I'll agree some atheists treat science like a religion.

Although MOST do not.

They don't place their "faith" on it, and they are constantly questioning it.

I use science as my most reliable reference because it has been shown to be demonstrably true on various aspects.


I agree it is very hypocritical. I think a lot of christians think this country should be ran based on their religious beliefs.
And this is what many atheists including myself are VERY vocal against.

I might be anti-religion, but I'm also a big defender of the 1st amendment and thus I would never want people not to be able to practice their beliefs.

HOWEVER....that's as far as it should go!

ALL government (Local, state, federal) should be 100% Neutral and secular when dealing with religion.....I DON'T CARE if the majority is christian, religion and government should NEVER mix, it's a recipe for disaster and I will always fight it tooth and nail!

Tivo32
07-05-2012, 02:14 PM
I use science as my most reliable reference because it has been shown to be demonstrably true on various aspects.


What about the things that science can't answer and will never be able to answer? Things like: why do seemingly good people get cancer and die? Why is there war in the world? Questions like that. Science can tell me why cancer happens and what it is, but that isn't much to help someone get their bearings after they just lost a spouse to cancer.

Sometimes I wish the scientific community and religious (for me Christian) community could meet on neutral ground.

habsheaven
07-05-2012, 02:26 PM
What about the things that science can't answer and will never be able to answer? Things like: why do seemingly good people get cancer and die? Why is there war in the world? Questions like that. Science can tell me why cancer happens and what it is, but that isn't much to help someone get their bearings after they just lost a spouse to cancer.

Sometimes I wish the scientific community and religious (for me Christian) community could meet on neutral ground.

You ask those question in a manner suggesting that there are answers to those questions rather than just opinions.

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 02:30 PM
Fair enough.

I accept any and all criticisms and advice given to me about my comments on this forum.

I know I can be aggressive and sometimes I might even be a jerk, although I can promise that insulting people is NOT and will never be my objective.


OK, I'll agree some atheists treat science like a religion.

Although MOST do not.

They don't place their "faith" on it, and they are constantly questioning it.

I use science as my most reliable reference because it has been shown to be demonstrably true on various aspects.


And this is what many atheists including myself are VERY vocal against.

I might be anti-religion, but I'm also a big defender of the 1st amendment and thus I would never want people not to be able to practice their beliefs.

HOWEVER....that's as far as it should go!

ALL government (Local, state, federal) should be 100% Neutral and secular when dealing with religion.....I DON'T CARE if the majority is christian, religion and government should NEVER mix, it's a recipe for disaster and I will always fight it tooth and nail!

That's awesome. I just don't see how telling Christians the bible is nothing but fairy tales or fables is necessary. There are many arguments against religion-based law making and that's simply not one of them.

I might also add that, for many religious people, their beliefs have been demonstrated or confirmed to them. You might not agree with it. You probably don't even really understand it, but it's true. Not all religious folk are brainwashed Jesus-zombies.

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 02:31 PM
You ask those question in a manner suggesting that there are answers to those questions rather than just opinions.
There probably are answers, just not ones we can come up with or understand.

Tivo32
07-05-2012, 02:31 PM
You ask those question in a manner suggesting that there are answers to those questions rather than just opinions.

Sorry! I don't mean to.

Here let me try again:

I don't believe science can have an opinion on those matters. Matters on the "soul" or the philosophical meaning of life. Religion at least offers a chance at an opinion, and for many an answer they have chosen to believe in.

habsheaven
07-05-2012, 02:47 PM
Sorry! I don't mean to.

Here let me try again:

I don't believe science can have an opinion on those matters. Matters on the "soul" or the philosophical meaning of life. Religion at least offers a chance at an opinion, and for many an answer they have chosen to believe in.

LOGIC also offers a chance at an opinion. Statistics pretty much answers the first one. If cancer kills people, odds are that it will kill "good" people as well as bad people. As for why there are wars; that probably needs a lot longer explanation which any good sociologist could give.

magic_bobcat
07-05-2012, 02:52 PM
I agree that in god we trust should not be on our currency nor should it be in our pledge of allegiance. Although God is a rather vague term as well. There are many Gods. although we know the one that is referenced.

I believe that when you say god with a capital G it only refers to the Christian god. For example Allah is a god but is not God if that makes sense.

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 02:53 PM
LOGIC also offers a chance at an opinion. Statistics pretty much answers the first one. If cancer kills people, odds are that it will kill "good" people as well as bad people. As for why there are wars; that probably needs a lot longer explanation which any good sociologist could give.

Did Socrates tell you to say that?








...sorry

JustAlex
07-05-2012, 02:58 PM
That's awesome. I just don't see how telling Christians the bible is nothing but fairy tales or fables is necessary. There are many arguments against religion-based law making and that's simply not one of them.

I might also add that, for many religious people, their beliefs have been demonstrated or confirmed to them. You might not agree with it. You probably don't even really understand it, but it's true. Not all religious folk are brainwashed Jesus-zombies.
Oh, trust me, I understand it perfectly well.

I was a christian for the MAJORITY of my life, in fact I've only been a self described atheist for the past 2 years.

Personally, I believe those people are perfect examples of CONFIRMATION BIAS.

They "hear" god talking to them, they "see" miracles, they have "visions", etc, etc.

Most of their claims can never be proven to anyone but themselves.

Once again, this is where Science and Religion differ.

While certain individuals might have "Experiences" with the supernatural.....Science is demonstrable for EVERYONE regardless what what they believe.


I don't believe science can have an opinion on those matters. Matters on the "soul" or the philosophical meaning of life. Religion at least offers a chance at an opinion, and for many an answer they have chosen to believe in.
Before we can talk about things like a "soul".

Can you properly define what a "soul" is?

I don't mean this in any sort of negative way....the reason I ask you is because many people have vast interpretations of what a "soul" actually is, and many of them have a hard time agreeing with each other.

Is it a spirit or is it our conscience or maybe neither or both?

Can it feel emotions?

If so, how?

Can it have memories of our mortal self?

Does it work the same way our human bodies work?


I can go on and on....

habsheaven
07-05-2012, 02:58 PM
Did Socrates tell you to say that?








...sorry

If I may borrow a quote from a fellow Canadian, "Nice sidestep." lol

magic_bobcat
07-05-2012, 02:58 PM
What about the things that science can't answer and will never be able to answer? Things like: why do seemingly good people get cancer and die? Why is there war in the world? Questions like that. Science can tell me why cancer happens and what it is, but that isn't much to help someone get their bearings after they just lost a spouse to cancer.

Sometimes I wish the scientific community and religious (for me Christian) community could meet on neutral ground.

Up until the 21st century I would argue 90% of wars were religious based.

And most of them still are

Tivo32
07-05-2012, 03:02 PM
Before we can talk about things like a "soul".

Can you properly define what a "soul" is?

I don't mean this in any sort of negative way....the reason I ask you is because many people have vast interpretations of what a "soul" actually is, and many of them have a hard time agreeing with each other.

Is it a spirit or is it our conscience or maybe neither or both?

Can it feel emotions?

If so, how?

Can it have memories of our mortal self?

Does it work the same way our human bodies work?


I can go on and on....

Haha, "soul" isn't too broad of a word, is it? (it definitely is) :P

Let me try to explain more. I guess what I mean by "soul" is the more philosophical side of our human nature. Thoughts, emotions, memories, life (or lack thereof) after death, the after life. All the things tied up in that stuff. Does that explain a little better? I'd be happy to try and explain further.

Discussing this over coffee is way easier than on an online message board. Coffee anyone?

magic_bobcat
07-05-2012, 03:04 PM
ALL government (Local, state, federal) should be 100% Neutral and secular when dealing with religion.....I DON'T CARE if the majority is christian, religion and government should NEVER mix, it's a recipe for disaster and I will always fight it tooth and nail!

You see, I agree with this.

Church and state should be two different entities.
However, I do believe religion has given modern day society a good set of principals for common law. For instance, thou shalt not kill, steal, etc.

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 03:05 PM
Up until the 21st century I would argue 90% of wars were religious based.

And most of them still are
I would disagree. I would guess that while, officially, many were in the name of religion, most wars have been about power, land, prestige and money.

magic_bobcat
07-05-2012, 03:06 PM
Haha, "soul" isn't too broad of a word, is it? (it definitely is) :P

Let me try to explain more. I guess what I mean by "soul" is the more philosophical side of our human nature. Thoughts, emotions, memories, life (or lack thereof) after death, the after life. All the things tied up in that stuff. Does that explain a little better? I'd be happy to try and explain further.

Discussing this over coffee is way easier than on an online message board. Coffee anyone?

I'll take a coke but sure! haha

On a side note, 'Thoughts, emotions, memories' I'd argue my dog has thoughts, emotion and memories, does that mean she has a soul? If she does then it can't be a side of human nature.

magic_bobcat
07-05-2012, 03:07 PM
I would disagree. I would guess that while, officially, many were in the name of religion, most wars have been about power, land, prestige and money.

I think you just described early religion, like monks having power because they were the only ones who could read.

mrveggieman
07-05-2012, 03:07 PM
I believe that when you say god with a capital G it only refers to the Christian god. For example Allah is a god but is not God if that makes sense.


Even though God and Allah is the exact same entity christians do not recognize the word Allah and if you call their god Allah you have just committed an act of blasphemy in their eyes.

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 03:12 PM
Oh, trust me, I understand it perfectly well.

I was a christian for the MAJORITY of my life, in fact I've only been a self described atheist for the past 2 years.

Personally, I believe those people are perfect examples of CONFIRMATION BIAS.

They "hear" god talking to them, they "see" miracles, they have "visions", etc, etc.

Most of their claims can never be proven to anyone but themselves.

Once again, this is where Science and Religion differ.

While certain individuals might have "Experiences" with the supernatural.....Science is demonstrable for EVERYONE regardless what what they believe.


Demonstrable as far as we already know and as far as we can understand. Do you honestly believe religion is full of people who first believed and then found things to call "proof" of their beliefs? I won't deny these people exist, but again, there are many who saw the "proof" first and then believed. One thing you have to understand is that your experience with religion is not everyone else's. Most of their claims are anecdotal, so no they can't be proven. At the same time, I'm taking a medication that, scientifically should not help me, but there is tons of anecdotal evidence that it does help people with my condition, including me. Don't discount anecdotal evidence as useless or wrong or misinterpreted just because it's anecdotal. That's shortsighted

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 03:13 PM
I think you just described early religion, like monks having power because they were the only ones who could read.

No, I think I described humanity. Religion is but one small part of it.

Tivo32
07-05-2012, 03:41 PM
I think I'm failing at explaining things today haha.

The point I was trying to make (and maybe this is an opinion?) is that there are distinct characteristics that make us human. I would characterize that as "soul." I could be wrong, but I don't think dogs question and ponder the meaning of life and what comes after death. Philosophical questions of life and the search for those answers to me = "soul"


I'll take a coke but sure! haha

On a side note, 'Thoughts, emotions, memories' I'd argue my dog has thoughts, emotion and memories, does that mean she has a soul? If she does then it can't be a side of human nature.

habsheaven
07-05-2012, 03:52 PM
I think I'm failing at explaining things today haha.

The point I was trying to make (and maybe this is an opinion?) is that there are distinct characteristics that make us human. I would characterize that as "soul." I could be wrong, but I don't think dogs question and ponder the meaning of life and what comes after death. Philosophical questions of life and the search for those answers to me = "soul"

I think I get what you are saying. I would only say this to that. There is evidence that suggests that there are several animal species that understand the concept of death. I am of the belief that the only way we differ from other animals is our level of intelligence.

JustAlex
07-05-2012, 03:55 PM
Demonstrable as far as we already know and as far as we can understand. Do you honestly believe religion is full of people who first believed and then found things to call "proof" of their beliefs? I won't deny these people exist, but again, there are many who saw the "proof" first and then believed. One thing you have to understand is that your experience with religion is not everyone else's. Most of their claims are anecdotal, so no they can't be proven. At the same time, I'm taking a medication that, scientifically should not help me, but there is tons of anecdotal evidence that it does help people with my condition, including me. Don't discount anecdotal evidence as useless or wrong or misinterpreted just because it's anecdotal. That's shortsighted

YES.

Because the three major religions (Judaism, Islam, and Christianity) all do the same thing....they use their beliefs as a Cultural thing, indoctrination, or simply misguiding/terrifying people.

It's NOT HARD to make people get into religion, tell them they are going to HELL for eternity, but they can be saved.....there you go.

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 03:56 PM
I think I get what you are saying. I would only say this to that. There is evidence that suggests that there are several animal species that understand the concept of death. I am of the belief that the only way we differ from other animals is our level of intelligence.
He didn't say "understand" death. He said wonder what happens after. It's pretty difficult to prove either way, but I'd guess dogs don't wonder to themselves if they go to heaven or turn to dust. I don't think any cats are wondering "Why are we here? What does it all mean?"

That's what he's saying.

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 03:59 PM
YES.

Because the three major religions (Judaism, Islam, and Christianity) all do the same thing....they use their beliefs as a Cultural thing, indoctrination, or simply misguiding/terrifying people.

It's NOT HARD to make people get into religion, tell them they are going to HELL for eternity, but they can be saved.....there you go.

So you truly believe that everyone who is in a religion is just mindlessly following whatever the guy at the front of the room says and thinking nothing for themselves.


You have a LOT to learn. Just because that was your experience does not make it true for everyone or even the majority. The fact you think it does shows me you still have a lot of learning to do and a lot of things to experience. Your view of religion is somewhat skewed and you lump God into religion which just isn't so. They're two different things that overlap.

JustAlex
07-05-2012, 04:04 PM
So you truly believe that everyone who is in a religion is just mindlessly following whatever the guy at the front of the room says and thinking nothing for themselves.


You have a LOT to learn. Just because that was your experience does not make it true for everyone or even the majority. The fact you think it does shows me you still have a lot of learning to do and a lot of things to experience. Your view of religion is somewhat skewed and you lump God into religion which just isn't so. They're two different things that overlap.
Dude....I went to various churches in my time as a christian, I DO know about these things.

I'm NOT making it up.

The majority of christians are the following:

#1 Their parents indoctrinated them when they were kids.

#2 Someone converted them by telling them they were doomed to damnation in Hell and Jesus is the only way to reach heaven

#3 It's a cultural thing.


There you go....no evidence, proof, or ANYTHING needed.

And although I don't know the exact percentage of this, I WOULD say the majority is that way.....and I have seen it.

Do some people become religious after an "experience"....SURE!

But they are the minority.

mrveggieman
07-05-2012, 04:08 PM
Let me ask you this. What do ya'll think about near death experiences? For example a christian would have a NDE and have a vision of Jesus. A muslim would have a vision of Muhammad.

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 04:10 PM
Dude....I went to various churches in my time as a christian, I DO know about these things.

I'm NOT making it up.

The majority of christians are the following:

#1 Their parents indoctrinated them when they were kids.

#2 Someone converted them by telling them they were doomed to damnation in Hell and Jesus is the only way to reach heaven

#3 It's a cultural thing.


There you go....no evidence, proof, or ANYTHING needed.

And although I don't know the exact percentage of this, I WOULD say the majority is that way.....and I have seen it.

Do some people become religious after an "experience"....SURE!

But they are the minority.

I don't care how many churches you've been in. I've met many, many, many religious people who are absolutely nothing as you described. Of course, both of us are going by anecdotal evidence, so we must both be wrong, right?
I think it's pretty presumptuous to assume (almost) everyone in religion only holds such beliefs because they've never thought about it. A claim such as that is insulting to many and yet you still feel the need to say it simply because you believe it to be true (unless you can show me some actual proof...). Why do you feel the need to insult these people?

It would shed some light into the original question of this thread.

Star_Cards
07-05-2012, 04:14 PM
In the beginning someone, likely a science teacher, taught you some things and that's where it started. You accept science as the way things are and that started somewhere. I'm not saying you just believe what you're told, I'm not an idiot. But the same is true for many religious people. The fact you don't accept their "proof" doesn't make it any less valid than your "proof", which many of them view as invalid. The two sides can't agree on anything because they're never having the same conversation. Science = physical world. Religion = spiritual world. Because there is no scientific evidence for the spiritual world, you dismiss it as tomfoolery (or whatever term you like). The problem with using science as proof for no God is that, if there were a God, then science would be a construct of his. Lack of evidence is not proof of lack of existence.

But that's neither here nor there. My point to Alex was when you insult the Bible you are, in effect, insulting those who believe in the Bible.

ETA:
Religion is not just "what someone told you". Why do you, and a lot of people, think it's impossible to believe in God after putting some thought into it? Why do you think anyone who believes in God must have been indoctrinated and brainwashed and is just parroting what they've told? Do you not realize a lot of people put much thought into it and not only believe in God but follow an organized religion because they think it's right?

I've never said that there can't be a god because of anything science has taught us. The issue with god is that it's completely supernatural (as you said) and when you are dealing with things outside of the world we know anything is possible. There's absolutely zero real world checks and balances so people can make up whatever they feel like and nothing can be refuted. I find it odd that people that do believe in a God seem to know exactly what that god is. It seems to me that if I were open to the ideal of a supernatural god that I would be open minded as far as what that god was and what he wants or plans. I wouldn't think a believer of such an openminded theory would be so closed minded about how exactly that god operates. If you believe in one god why don't you believe in them all just as seriously? Why does every other religion claim to know exactly? Maybe all of the gods exist and are a team and have split up the world. Maybe the one you worship is false, maybe all of the others are? I just tend to think and form opinions based on real world experiences and less on supernatural ideals. That is the main reason why I don't believe there is a god, any god.

I don't have the need to prove or disprove anyone's god. To me god is nothing more than any other modern day supernatural tale. It's interesting to think about an all powerful creator and what his plan is/was, but it's nothing that effects my every day activities.

Star_Cards
07-05-2012, 04:19 PM
Let me ask you this. What do ya'll think about near death experiences? For example a christian would have a NDE and have a vision of Jesus. A muslim would have a vision of Muhammad.

I've never experienced a NDE. My thought is that the mind is a very powerful organ and can create very realistic thoughts while one is dreaming. I would assume that it can do the same thing while one is unconscious and teetering on death.

magic_bobcat
07-05-2012, 04:36 PM
He didn't say "understand" death. He said wonder what happens after. It's pretty difficult to prove either way, but I'd guess dogs don't wonder to themselves if they go to heaven or turn to dust. I don't think any cats are wondering "Why are we here? What does it all mean?"

That's what he's saying.

Although you are talking about dogs questioning the afterlife I think the bold part pretty much sums up religion.

Believe in it, don't believe in it, who cares? I don't just don't ram either view down my throat and be a good member of society.

Tivo32
07-05-2012, 04:45 PM
Dude....I went to various churches in my time as a christian, I DO know about these things.

I'm NOT making it up.

The majority of christians are the following:

#1 Their parents indoctrinated them when they were kids.

#2 Someone converted them by telling them they were doomed to damnation in Hell and Jesus is the only way to reach heaven

#3 It's a cultural thing.


There you go....no evidence, proof, or ANYTHING needed.

And although I don't know the exact percentage of this, I WOULD say the majority is that way.....and I have seen it.

Do some people become religious after an "experience"....SURE!

But they are the minority.

I would respectfully disagree with you. I can understand why you, someone who has said they moved on from or left Christianity, would see it that way. But I don't think that sums up the majority of Christians.

I would agree that the majority of people who leave the Christian church or stop believing in the Christian God would say one of those 3 reasons summed their past up.

Tivo32
07-05-2012, 04:46 PM
Let me ask you this. What do ya'll think about near death experiences? For example a christian would have a NDE and have a vision of Jesus. A muslim would have a vision of Muhammad.

What happens when a Muslim has a vision of Jesus? Or vice-versa.

JustAlex
07-05-2012, 04:46 PM
I don't care how many churches you've been in. I've met many, many, many religious people who are absolutely nothing as you described. Of course, both of us are going by anecdotal evidence, so we must both be wrong, right?
I think it's pretty presumptuous to assume (almost) everyone in religion only holds such beliefs because they've never thought about it. A claim such as that is insulting to many and yet you still feel the need to say it simply because you believe it to be true (unless you can show me some actual proof...). Why do you feel the need to insult these people?

It would shed some light into the original question of this thread.
OK, wait a minute.

We both live in two different countries.

Is it really hard to believe that maybe the way people become religious in our countries is different?


We can argue back and forth, but I know for a FACT....not an opinion....a FACT!

That most American christians are either brought up christian or they are converted christians.

They are NOT given proof....that's why this is based on FAITH....not proof or evidence.

Tivo32
07-05-2012, 04:52 PM
That most American christians are either brought up christian or they are converted christians.

How else would one become anything? You didn't discover science on your own. Someone "converted" you to science. Someone taught you and explained to you and you believed the evidence that was presented to you. Or am I wrong in that?

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 05:22 PM
OK, wait a minute.

We both live in two different countries.

Is it really hard to believe that maybe the way people become religious in our countries is different?


We can argue back and forth, but I know for a FACT....not an opinion....a FACT!

That most American christians are either brought up christian or they are converted christians.

They are NOT given proof....that's why this is based on FAITH....not proof or evidence.

I'm saying what they see as proof and what you see as proof are two very different things. You either don't understand that or just don't respect it. Many of them do get proof. You didn't, and your beliefs were changed. I'm not even going to get into the proof required to back up your claim of FACT, which is in actuality, an opinion, regardless of what you think you know and have seen.

Nationality has nothing to do with this conversation, though you're correct, we Canadians tend to be much less religious than you Americans. The fact of the matter is you're basically saying, "If you're religious, the chances are very, very high that you don't think for yourself." Add that to, "The book you follow, The Bible, is nothing but fairy tales and fables." and you become one very insulting person in two short sentences. You've just called the majority of Christians vapid, childish idiots who may as well live their lives according to Dr. Suess (paraphrasing, of course). You then have the nerve to turn around and say Christians are too sensitive and too easily offended.

So, for the sake of the original point of this thread,:

Do you simply not see how you're being offensive to some people?
Do you understand in the FACT that only a handful of Christians have (what is in their eyes) proof of God is based on your FAITH that your personal experiences hold true for all but a small few?
Do you think you'll ever be taken seriously as long as you continue to be insulting, whether you see it as such or not?
Do you realize that saying, "except for a few" doesn't take away from the fact that you're generalizing an entire group?

habsheaven
07-05-2012, 05:39 PM
OK, wait a minute.

We both live in two different countries.

Is it really hard to believe that maybe the way people become religious in our countries is different?


We can argue back and forth, but I know for a FACT....not an opinion....a FACT!

That most American christians are either brought up christian or they are converted christians.

They are NOT given proof....that's why this is based on FAITH....not proof or evidence.

It has nothing to do with what country you are from Alex. I think you are right on the mark. Everyone starts out believing what they are told long before they start asking questions about it. And when you ask the vast majority of Christians why they believe? Few will tell you it is based on proof. It is based on nothing more than faith.

JustAlex
07-05-2012, 05:42 PM
I have experience as a Christian, I have no reason to make anything up...

If you believe in a book filled with things most objectionable people would classify as impossible, then I'll leave others to evaluate what that means.

If you are in a religion that demands to be OBEDIENT to god and to not challenge yourself when proof and evidence comes in that is against your beliefs then I'll also leave that to others to evaluate what that means.

You can say I'm insulting christians, or you can say I'm calling it as I see it.

I don't think I have to be extra sensitive.....especially when I WAS a christian the majority of my life.

I'm giving MY view of how I see things, you can either agree or disagree, that is all.

habsheaven
07-05-2012, 05:44 PM
There are millions of Christians that believe everything in the Bible is true. I'm sorry, if those people get insulted or offended when disbelievers express their opinion on their stance. Sometimes the truth hurts.

Tivo32
07-05-2012, 05:48 PM
If you believe in a book filled with things most objectionable people would classify as impossible, then I'll leave others to evaluate what that means.

If you are in a religion that demands to be OBEDIENT to god and to not challenge yourself when proof and evidence comes in that is against your beliefs then I'll also leave that to others to evaluate what that means.

To the first sentence - there are something like 2.1 billion people in the world who would classify themselves as Christians. Given that we live in a world of about 7 billion people, are you comfortable saying that something like 30% of people in the entire world are not objectionable?

To the second sentence - as a person who has studied Christianity and the Bible, I would politely argue that what you laid out is not a correct understanding of true Christianity.

JustAlex
07-05-2012, 05:52 PM
To the first sentence - there are something like 2.1 billion people in the world who would classify themselves as Christians. Given that we live in a world of about 7 billion people, are you comfortable saying that something like 30% of people in the entire world are not objectionable?

To the second sentence - as a person who has studied Christianity and the Bible, I would politely argue that what you laid out is not a correct understanding of true Christianity.

So you're not obedient to god?

And ANY evidence that comes in against your beliefs are NOT to be shunned, for example evolution, abiogenesis, and the big bang theory?

If this wasn't so, why do American christians fight so hard against evolution, abiogenesis and big bang theory?

I posted a graph about 2 months ago that showed that only about 40% of Americans accepted Evolution as true......this was almost DEAD LAST in comparison to every first world country in the world!


Here it is for reference:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/archive/disbelief%20in%20evolution.jpg

Tivo32
07-05-2012, 05:53 PM
Everyone starts out believing what they are told long before they start asking questions about it. And when you ask the vast majority of Christians why they believe? Few will tell you it is based on proof. It is based on nothing more than faith.

If you had a person who has looked into the teachings of Christ as well as the history of the Old Testament and look at both biblical and extrabiblical sources and found that there is enough evidence for them to believe that the Bible is true, is that enough proof for you? I'm sincerely asking.

And I don't think its quite fair to not allow a person to have some faith in their beliefs. At some point or another we all put some faith that our beliefs (yes even science) are true. It's a bit unfair to ask a person who believes in God to remove all faith and prove everything.

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 05:56 PM
I have experience as a Christian, I have no reason to make anything up...

If you believe in a book filled with things most objectionable people would classify as impossible, then I'll leave others to evaluate what that means.

If you are in a religion that demands to be OBEDIENT to god and to not challenge yourself when proof and evidence comes in that is against your beliefs then I'll also leave that to others to evaluate what that means.

You can say I'm insulting christians, or you can say I'm calling it as I see it.

I don't think I have to be extra sensitive.....especially when I WAS a christian the majority of my life.

I'm giving MY view of how I see things, you can either agree or disagree, that is all.

Yes, Alex, that's fine if that's all it is. The other half is the attitude one presents his points with. If you go into every discussion with the "I'm right, you're wrong attitude that entirely too many people on all sides have, it will come across whether you're speaking or typing. You make your statement and "leave it to others to evaluate what that means" but, Alex, the things you say, including statements in this very thread, only have one possible meaning. Are you trying to say veiled insults aren't insults? Do you believe that to be true?
I don't see what the fact you were raised in Christianity really has to do with anything, other than your anecdotal evidence garnered from personal experience, which, in my experience, is not a scientific basis for anything. You're making sweeping generalizations which are, more often than not, insulting. So again, why must you be so insulting to people who don't hold your beliefs, Alex?

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 05:58 PM
There are millions of Christians that believe everything in the Bible is true. I'm sorry, if those people get insulted or offended when disbelievers express their opinion on their stance. Sometimes the truth hurts.

Is it necessary to insult someone by calling it "fairy tales" instead of saying, "I don't believe in it because..."?

Is it really that hard to have some tact? Is it really that difficult to choose your words before you say them? Does everybody have to try to be Denis Leary?

Tivo32
07-05-2012, 05:59 PM
So you're not obedient to god?

And ANY evidence that comes in against your beliefs are NOT to be shunned, for example evolution, abiogenesis, and the big bang theory?

If this wasn't so, why do American christians fight so hard against evolution, abiogenesis and big bang theory?

I posted a graph about 2 months ago that showed that only about 40% of Americans accepted Evolution as true......this was almost DEAD LAST in comparison to every first world country in the world!

I do my best to be obedient to God as I find to be true laid out in the Bible.

Do I struggle trying figure out evolution, abiogenesis (I had 0 idea what that was, just Wikipedia'd it - interesting stuff!) and the big bang theory in regards to my belief in the Christian God? Yes absolutely. I am constantly trying to go back and forth and figure out what I believe with that stuff.

But that isn't everything to me. And maybe I'm wrong. I find a lot of what I believe about God to be true as I go about my life and interact with people and live life.

In regards to your graph. I think a lot of Christians between the ages of 40 plus are scared of the word "evolution." I would be interested in seeing that graph again in even 5 to 10 years.

There are plenty of adults who go about their life and scientific study holds no interest to them whatsoever. They haven't looked into evolution so they say they don't believe in it.

JustAlex
07-05-2012, 06:15 PM
So again, why must you be so insulting to people who don't hold your beliefs, Alex?
But I already answered this question.

I don't believe I'm being insulting.....I mean, I don't see any other way I can speak about these issues.

I will NEVER call people names, I will never underestimate their intelligence.

I was THEM not too long ago.

That is NOT to say, I figured out the "truth" and they're idiots who still believe in nonsense....It wasn't easy for me to become an atheist I struggled for a long time with my beliefs.

If they choose to believe what they do, that is perfectly fine.....however, I don't think it's insulting to CHALLENGE their beliefs, just like they can challenge my beliefs, I'm perfectly fine with it.

C'mon, how many times has a christian said: "You believe we come from monkeys?"...."You believe everything was created from nothing"?....and so on!


I do my best to be obedient to God as I find to be true laid out in the Bible.

Do I struggle trying figure out evolution, abiogenesis (I had 0 idea what that was, just Wikipedia'd it - interesting stuff!) and the big bang theory in regards to my belief in the Christian God? Yes absolutely. I am constantly trying to go back and forth and figure out what I believe with that stuff.

But that isn't everything to me. And maybe I'm wrong. I find a lot of what I believe about God to be true as I go about my life and interact with people and live life.

In regards to your graph. I think a lot of Christians between the ages of 40 plus are scared of the word "evolution." I would be interested in seeing that graph again in even 5 to 10 years.

There are plenty of adults who go about their life and scientific study holds no interest to them whatsoever. They haven't looked into evolution so they say they don't believe in it.
Well, I think you might be right that some christians are scared of the word "evolution".

I understand why people believe in god, I really do....as for myself, I simply can't because there isn't enough evidence.

Tivo32
07-05-2012, 06:18 PM
Well, I think you might be right that some christians are scared of the word "evolution".

I understand why people believe in god, I really do....as for myself, I simply can't because there isn't enough evidence.

Fair enough! :)

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 06:28 PM
But I already answered this question.

I don't believe I'm being insulting.....I mean, I don't see any other way I can speak about these issues.

I will NEVER call people names, I will never underestimate their intelligence.
You can speak to these issues with tact and a little class. It's really about wording and attitude.
And again, it's great that you don't feel you're being insulting, but it's not up to you. You outright tell people, "Everything you believe is a fairy tale." No matter your intentions or how you see it, that's an insult.


I was THEM not too long ago.

That is NOT to say, I figured out the "truth" and they're idiots who still believe in nonsense....It wasn't easy for me to become an atheist I struggled for a long time with my beliefs.

If they choose to believe what they do, that is perfectly fine.....however, I don't think it's insulting to CHALLENGE their beliefs, just like they can challenge my beliefs, I'm perfectly fine with it.
So why the need to repeatedly tell them they believe in fairy tales? That's not challenging their beliefs, it's degrading them.


C'mon, how many times has a christian said: "You believe we come from monkeys?"...."You believe everything was created from nothing"?....and so on!

It doesn't matter. That's the immature argument of a six year old, "Oh, but they do it too!"
Does that make it better when you do the same? Or does it sink you to that level? I'll leave you to decide.

Last NOTE on this post YOU don't NEED to randomly CAPITALIZE WORDS. It really MEANS nothing and IS a little annoying.

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 06:28 PM
I understand why people believe in god, I really do....as for myself, I simply can't because there isn't enough evidence.

...for you.

habsheaven
07-05-2012, 06:41 PM
If you had a person who has looked into the teachings of Christ as well as the history of the Old Testament and look at both biblical and extrabiblical sources and found that there is enough evidence for them to believe that the Bible is true, is that enough proof for you? I'm sincerely asking.

And I don't think its quite fair to not allow a person to have some faith in their beliefs. At some point or another we all put some faith that our beliefs (yes even science) are true. It's a bit unfair to ask a person who believes in God to remove all faith and prove everything.

Is it proof of what? That they approached each and every claim made in the bible with an open mind? Honestly it would mean nothing to me. I could tell you a story that you found to be 80% true based on your own research. The other 20% could be completely fabricated. If you tell me you believe it 100%, I see a problem with that.

habsheaven
07-05-2012, 06:45 PM
Is it necessary to insult someone by calling it "fairy tales" instead of saying, "I don't believe in it because..."?

Is it really that hard to have some tact? Is it really that difficult to choose your words before you say them? Does everybody have to try to be Denis Leary?

So if I were to say, "I do not believe in the Bible because the stories told are not physically possible." (inferring that they are made up, but not saying so) That would be acceptable?

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 06:58 PM
So if I were to say, "I do not believe in the Bible because the stories told are not physically possible." (inferring that they are made up, but not saying so) That would be acceptable?

Yup. Of course, you're walking into the "nothing is impossible for God because he's God" argument.

But yes that's a much more tactful and less aggressive and argumentative way of saying the exact same thing. Because all of the proof you've seen makes it a fact in your mind doesn't negate the fact that it's an opinion to others. Since God is a topic that is both subjective and very personal, most useless arguments come out of insults, sweeping generalizations and overstatement of opinion.

Let's use evolution as an example. I can live with it being called a fact. To me there's enough evidence to put it into the "until otherwise proven" category. However, what conclusions you draw from evolution being a fact are entirely opinion. Does evolution disprove God? You might say yes, and many would agree with you, but it's still only an opinion.

I do love how people can clearly make the statement that believers are stupid idiots without using the exact words "stupid", "idiot", etc and when it's taken as intended, turn around and play, "I didn't say that." Games like that do nothing to further any discourse and only serve to start useless arguments. Unfortunately for the science community, it's my experience that the science side plays this game a lot more often than the religious side. Not saying the religious side doesn't play games. Just saying the science side isn't any better than religion in this regard.

habsheaven
07-05-2012, 07:31 PM
Yup. Of course, you're walking into the "nothing is impossible for God because he's God" argument.

But yes that's a much more tactful and less aggressive and argumentative way of saying the exact same thing. Because all of the proof you've seen makes it a fact in your mind doesn't negate the fact that it's an opinion to others. Since God is a topic that is both subjective and very personal, most useless arguments come out of insults, sweeping generalizations and overstatement of opinion.

Let's use evolution as an example. I can live with it being called a fact. To me there's enough evidence to put it into the "until otherwise proven" category. However, what conclusions you draw from evolution being a fact are entirely opinion. Does evolution disprove God? You might say yes, and many would agree with you, but it's still only an opinion.

I do love how people can clearly make the statement that believers are stupid idiots without using the exact words "stupid", "idiot", etc and when it's taken as intended, turn around and play, "I didn't say that." Games like that do nothing to further any discourse and only serve to start useless arguments. Unfortunately for the science community, it's my experience that the science side plays this game a lot more often than the religious side. Not saying the religious side doesn't play games. Just saying the science side isn't any better than religion in this regard.

I wouldn't say that, and I would argue with anyone that did. They are mutually exclusive ideas. The problem I see with trying to be tactful is that the believer can take this as tacit acceptance of their beliefs. It happens all the time when believers try to equate evidence of evolution with evidence of creationism. There is no comparison and if you tactfully tell them so you might as well not reply at all.

JustAlex
07-05-2012, 07:36 PM
Last NOTE on this post YOU don't NEED to randomly CAPITALIZE WORDS. It really MEANS nothing and IS a little annoying.
This is the only thing I'm going to respond to, since I feel that we're going in circles and I have already explained myself.

You're probably the 5th person to speak out against the way I type on these forums, I'll tell you what I tell everyone else.

This is the way I type.....I double space my sentences in order to be easier to read and I use CAPS on certain words I want to EMPHASIZE...at this point, it's kinda like OCD, I really can't control myself.

Not to worry though, I ONLY do it in forums, when I write essays or letters I would NEVER type the way I do here.

habsheaven
07-05-2012, 07:38 PM
This is the only thing I'm going to respond to, since I feel that we're going in circles and I have already explained myself.

You're probably the 5th person to speak out against the way I type on these forums, I'll tell you what I tell everyone else.

This is the way I type.....I double space my sentences in order to be easier to read and I use CAPS on certain words I want to EMPHASIZE...at this point, it's kinda like OCD, I really can't control myself.

Not to worry though, I ONLY do it in forums, when I write essays or letters I would NEVER type the way I do here.

I like how you think. I do the exact same thing. :golf:

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 08:11 PM
I wouldn't say that, and I would argue with anyone that did. They are mutually exclusive ideas. The problem I see with trying to be tactful is that the believer can take this as tacit acceptance of their beliefs. It happens all the time when believers try to equate evidence of evolution with evidence of creationism. There is no comparison and if you tactfully tell them so you might as well not reply at all.

So is the solution then to be more insulting or as clear as you can possibly be? If you're constantly clear then it should be pretty obvious you don't accept their beliefs. If they can't get it, well, some people aren't worth talking to, that doesn't make it okay to become insulting. Too many times I have seen real conversations devolve into mud-slinging and insults simply because one party or the other made a statement with a distinct lack of tact. If you think using tact equates to converting to a religion, you need to be clearer.

There's also something I'd like to say to both sides. You both see your views as fact. That's fine. Problems arise, however when you simultaneously talk about your side as if it's fact while constantly qualifying statements of the other side. For example, a Christian stating that, say, the world was created in 6 days and then a few sentences later saying something like, "IF evolution is true..."
That's just an example, both sides do it. Realize that what you accept as fact and proof isn't necessarily the same as what the person you're speaking to accepts as fact and proof. Stating one of your beliefs as fact and an opposing belief as a pipe dream is not tactful. Saying the bible is a fairy tale is not tactful. Saying "All/Most Christians are..." or "All you atheists just..." is not tactful. Insults, veiled or otherwise, qualifying the other's side of things as if you're merely humouring them and sweeping generalizations are the absolute biggest triggers for useless bickering. Saying, "Well the other side did it too/first," just proves that you're at the exact same level mentally.


And ALEX: The emphasis loses SOME steam when you RANDOMLY CAPITALIZE words as often as you. If you really are just emphasizing your point there are other ways of doing it WITHOUGH randomly capitalizing WORDS. It shouldnčt take away from what youčre saying, but it kind of does.

JustAlex
07-05-2012, 09:32 PM
And ALEX: The emphasis loses SOME steam when you RANDOMLY CAPITALIZE words as often as you. If you really are just emphasizing your point there are other ways of doing it WITHOUGH randomly capitalizing WORDS. It shouldnčt take away from what youčre saying, but it kind of does.
Noted...

Wickabee
07-05-2012, 10:09 PM
I wouldn't say that, and I would argue with anyone that did. They are mutually exclusive ideas. The problem I see with trying to be tactful is that the believer can take this as tacit acceptance of their beliefs. It happens all the time when believers try to equate evidence of evolution with evidence of creationism. There is no comparison and if you tactfully tell them so you might as well not reply at all.

By the way, Habs,



Let's use evolution as an example. I can live with it being called a fact. To me there's enough evidence to put it into the "until otherwise proven" category. However, what conclusions you draw from evolution being a fact are entirely opinion. Does evolution disprove God? You might say yes, and many would agree with you, but it's still only an opinion.

Just for the record

ensbergcollector
07-05-2012, 10:17 PM
So if I were to say, "I do not believe in the Bible because the stories told are not physically possible." (inferring that they are made up, but not saying so) That would be acceptable?

that would be extremely more acceptable then how it is often worded on here. A non-believers lack of belief does not bother or offend me at all.

mrveggieman
07-06-2012, 09:06 AM
I think that a little tact from all sides would go a long way. For example a while back on here on of our christian members posted an imflamatory remark calling islam a false religion. I checked him over that. However if someone called christianity a false religion everyone would be up in arms over it.

ensbergcollector
07-06-2012, 10:46 AM
I think that a little tact from all sides would go a long way. For example a while back on here on of our christian members posted an imflamatory remark calling islam a false religion. I checked him over that. However if someone called christianity a false religion everyone would be up in arms over it.

i know, instead of addressing the tone of this forum the last 2 months, let's bring up something that is months old so we can make it the fault of a christian. nice

Wickabee
07-06-2012, 01:21 PM
i know, instead of addressing the tone of this forum the last 2 months, let's bring up something that is months old so we can make it the fault of a christian. nice

...and sometimes people are too sensitive.

ensbergcollector
07-06-2012, 03:30 PM
...and sometimes people are too sensitive.

so veggie can bring up something from months ago but if i comment on the tone of this entire forum for the last few months i am being too sensitive? funny that the only people who think i am too sensitive are those who share the opinions that offend me.

Wickabee
07-06-2012, 03:40 PM
so veggie can bring up something from months ago but if i comment on the tone of this entire forum for the last few months i am being too sensitive? funny that the only people who think i am too sensitive are those who share the opinions that offend me.

You chose to focus on the word "Christian" instead of the actual point of the post. My post had nothing to do with your or my opinions on anything. Don't sidestep the point just to start an argument.

ensbergcollector
07-06-2012, 03:45 PM
You chose to focus on the word "Christian" instead of the actual point of the post. My post had nothing to do with your or my opinions on anything. Don't sidestep the point just to start an argument.

didn't realize i was starting an argument. sorry