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View Full Version : Is being gay really a sin per the bible? Watch this vid.



mrveggieman
07-07-2012, 09:42 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezQjNJUSraY

ensbergcollector
07-07-2012, 11:01 AM
i don't have time to watch the video (on my way out the door) but homosexuality is called a sin in both the old and new testaments. It is not a worse sin then other sexual sins but it is a sin.

mrveggieman
07-07-2012, 11:10 AM
I'm almost through watching the vid. Believe it or not it has not changed my views one bit. Yes I still believe that God does not approve of homosexuality however once again not everyone believes in the same things that I do and homosexuals should be entitled to every right and priviledge that straight people enjoy. However the video bought up some good points about how people pick and chose the verses in the bible that are convient for them and simply ignore the ones that they don't like.

Theodor Madison
07-07-2012, 11:31 AM
Sin is sin. As being all sinners how can we judge. To everyone there is a time to draw close to God, who is the last and final Judge.

mrveggieman
07-07-2012, 12:19 PM
Sin is sin. As being all sinners how can we judge. To everyone there is a time to draw close to God, who is the last and final Judge.

CHURCH!! :love0030::love0030::love0030:

habsheaven
07-07-2012, 06:21 PM
It doesn't matter what the Bible says about homosexuality. I KNOW it is not a sin. I KNOW the Bible was written by a bunch of MEN who were anything BUT enlightened in their views. It's preposterous for people to be getting their sense of right and wrong out of a book written thousands of years ago.

shrewsbury
07-08-2012, 01:34 AM
habbs, most of the bible. but the bible contains some of the much needed material to know what a christian is and that is the quotes of jesus, not visions, nor personal views, but actual quotes. of course there may be other sources for the quotes of jesus outside the bible.

no where does jesus say anything about homosexuals, but he also does not mention rapists nor child molesters, nor jay walkers, or nudists.

he does say sin only exists because of humans, so maybe it is only a sin if you think it is, then again, maybe not?

I think saying the teachings of jesus are baseless, useless, or out of date, means you may not have studied jesus as much as you have christians.

JustAlex
07-08-2012, 01:54 AM
OK, lets talk about the bible and "sin".

#1 The bible says NOTHING on Pedophilia.....so how do we know that's a sin?

#2 The bible says slavery is OK in the OT......so I guess the U.S was perfectly fine with all those slaves back in the 19th century!

#3 The 10 Commandments.......only 2 are actual laws here in the U.S (Stealing and Murder)....THAT'S IT!.....the other 8 can be broken with no repercussions!

And yet, this is what we have in courthouses....why?


OK, I got a bit off topic with the last one, but I think you guys can see what I'm trying to say.

ensbergcollector
07-08-2012, 02:52 AM
Since habs KNOWS what is and isnt sin I guess we should all gather at his feet while he doles out wisdom. Come on bro, im fine with you not agreeing with christians but really?

JustAlex
07-08-2012, 03:42 AM
Since habs KNOWS what is and isnt sin I guess we should all gather at his feet while he doles out wisdom. Come on bro, im fine with you not agreeing with christians but really?
He only said he "knows" that homosexuality is not a sin, he wasn't talking about all sin in general.

Personally, I don't even believe in "sin".



Sin: An offense against religious or moral law.

Well, I contend that we first have to show what is "Moral"?

Is lying "immoral".....YES.....wait, are you sure?

Pretend the Gestapo is at your doorstep, they ask you if you have seen any Jews around......YOU HAVE.....however in order to save their lives, you say "NO".

In this case Lying was the MORAL thing to do, since it resulted in saving lives.


When you believe in "Sin" you are by default believing in absolute morality, and since "Only a Sith deal in Absolutes", there's no way I can believe that.


LOL, that was obviously a joke....seriously though, I could NEVER deal in absolutes, and "Sin" is just another way to control people.

I will join Habs and say that I KNOW that homosexuality is not a sin.

theonedru
07-08-2012, 05:38 AM
If sin is natural and homosexuality is a sin then how can it be unnatural?

shrewsbury
07-08-2012, 10:35 AM
nature and god are two different forces


sin only derives from humans, so technically there is no sin, we create it.

and i am sure habs doesn't want any of us near his feet (canadians are sensitive about that)

chrisjacobs7
07-08-2012, 11:11 AM
I am a firm believer that you cannot legislate morality and tell people what they can and cannot do (unless it harms the rights of others), so I lean towards legalizing same sex marriage. Yes, homosexuality is a sin but it should not be placed on the pedestal that it is where it is considered worse than all other sins. We all struggle with sin and should not condemn, but love and help other individuals who are also struggling. "Love the sinner, hate the sin."

habsheaven
07-08-2012, 11:32 AM
Feel free to gather at my feet and ask me anything you want about sin. I guarantee you that I will have a better answer than you can find anywhere in the Bible. You won't have to re-interpret it. You won't find any contradictions. You won't even have to guess at why it is a sin. You will know.


Since habs KNOWS what is and isnt sin I guess we should all gather at his feet while he doles out wisdom. Come on bro, im fine with you not agreeing with christians but really?

shrewsbury
07-08-2012, 12:26 PM
Habs, really?

I will say, because I like you, you may have answers that make more sense to you, but to think you are wiser than Jesus, even as a historical figure, is a bit much.

also remember anyone can interpret anything in many ways, no matter how clear you think you are being.

shrewsbury
07-08-2012, 12:28 PM
is homosexuality a sin, anti-evolution, or both?

habsheaven
07-08-2012, 12:40 PM
Wiser than Jesus? Ok, maybe not. I will give you that. Wise enough to know what is right and what is wrong without needing to be told by Jesus? Yes, I am quite confident I know the difference.


Habs, really?

I will say, because I like you, you may have answers that make more sense to you, but to think you are wiser than Jesus, even as a historical figure, is a bit much.

also remember anyone can interpret anything in many ways, no matter how clear you think you are being.

habsheaven
07-08-2012, 12:41 PM
You forgot "neither". Which is the correct answer.


is homosexuality a sin, anti-evolution, or both?

Theodor Madison
07-08-2012, 12:56 PM
what do we really know about sin? What is it, to those who believe that it exist?
Those who tend, or say that they do not believe in God, How can they know what is sin?
Sin is knowing to do what is right and not doing it is Sin

So those who say anything goes, have no idea what is the definition of sin.

habsheaven
07-08-2012, 01:32 PM
I have never known anyone that says "anything goes". How many people do you know with that philosophy?



what do we really know about sin? What is it, to those who believe that it exist?
Those who tend, or say that they do not believe in God, How can they know what is sin?
Sin is knowing to do what is right and not doing it is Sin

So those who say anything goes, have no idea what is the definition of sin.

drtom2005
07-08-2012, 02:11 PM
Sin is knowing to do what is right and not doing it is Sin


I can't really tell if this is what you believe "sin" to be, but I would call that a good moral construct to live by.

Although it is doesn't complete how to know what is wrong. I attempt to try to treat and respect everyone the way I would want to be treated. Do I fail at times to do everything right? Yes, but so does everyone else. When I fail, I have to make it up to a person, not a god.

mrveggieman
07-08-2012, 03:57 PM
I am a firm believer that you cannot legislate morality and tell people what they can and cannot do (unless it harms the rights of others), so I lean towards legalizing same sex marriage. Yes, homosexuality is a sin but it should not be placed on the pedestal that it is where it is considered worse than all other sins. We all struggle with sin and should not condemn, but love and help other individuals who are also struggling. "Love the sinner, hate the sin."

CHURCH!!:love0030::love0030::love0030:

JustAlex
07-08-2012, 04:09 PM
what do we really know about sin? What is it, to those who believe that it exist?
Those who tend, or say that they do not believe in God, How can they know what is sin?
Sin is knowing to do what is right and not doing it is Sin

So those who say anything goes, have no idea what is the definition of sin.

Here's the thing, how do RELIGIOUS people know what "Sin" is????

The bible speaks NOTHING on Pedophilia, how are you sure that's a sin???


BEFORE the bible was ever written, humans KNEW that killing each other was WRONG!

Why?

Because it was detrimental to society, because they knew that they needed each other to survive and killing each other also created negative emotions.

This IS NOT about "sin", this is about right and wrong.

We don't need the bible to tell us not to kill, steal, or rape.....we KNOW these things are wrong!

Wickabee
07-08-2012, 04:54 PM
The bible speaks NOTHING on Pedophilia, how are you sure that's a sin???

I would think that falls under "fornication".

JustAlex
07-08-2012, 05:08 PM
I would think that falls under "fornication".
So it would be OK to have a fully grown adult male marry a prepubescent girl (let's say 10 YO)?

That covers it pretty nicely, wouldn't it, and there is nothing in the bible that says an adult male can't marry a prepubescent girl.

So again, how do christians know that this is wrong?

Theodor Madison
07-08-2012, 05:20 PM
As humans we can justify doing everything including being Gay. This does not make it right. Was it not Jeffery Dahmer who said he was hungry. Do we think this was Right?

Wickabee
07-08-2012, 05:22 PM
So it would be OK to have a fully grown adult male marry a prepubescent girl (let's say 10 YO)?

That covers it pretty nicely, wouldn't it, and there is nothing in the bible that says an adult male can't marry a prepubescent girl.

So again, how do christians know that this is wrong?

In the Bible it's not wrong. In our society, it is. "Paying Caesar's things to Caesar" is about more than just taxes, it means following laws of the land, so long as they don't keep you from following God's laws. Restraining yourself from marrying a 10 year old doesn't go against God's law, so it is a true Christian's duty to follow the law.

JustAlex
07-08-2012, 05:37 PM
In the Bible it's not wrong. In our society, it is. "Paying Caesar's things to Caesar" is about more than just taxes, it means following laws of the land, so long as they don't keep you from following God's laws. Restraining yourself from marrying a 10 year old doesn't go against God's law, so it is a true Christian's duty to follow the law.
OK, then Christians should NOT be going against abortion.....after all, it's the law!

And the bible says NOTHING on abortion, and before you say it's "Murder", our society DOES NOT consider it murder, so why do christians go against it?

JustAlex
07-08-2012, 05:39 PM
As humans we can justify doing everything including being Gay. This does not make it right. Was it not Jeffery Dahmer who said he was hungry. Do we think this was Right?
Except that gays are NOT justifying themselves for being gay!

They say that they are BORN gay, and that is NOT their fault, if god really does exists then it was HIM who made them gay!

Just like he made you and I straight!

Wickabee
07-08-2012, 05:55 PM
OK, then Christians should NOT be going against abortion.....after all, it's the law!

And the bible says NOTHING on abortion, and before you say it's "Murder", our society DOES NOT consider it murder, so why do christians go against it?

Ok, ok, you can cool the hostility.

The fact is I'm going to say "Murder". You see if society says something is wrong and that doesn't keep one from following God's law, then one "pays Caesar" and follows the law. If something goes against God's law and society says it's ok, then it's a Christian's duty to not do it despite what society says. So I imagine abortion does fall under murder, by God's law, and therefor it is a Christian's duty to never have or condone an abortion.

Now is when you say, "So WHY do they WANT to make it illegal AND force everyone to follow THEIR beliefs?!?!?!?!?!?!"
Which is when I say I simply don't know, but I would guess that has more to do with HUMAN nature and the HUMAN construct of religion than it does with God or any of Christ's teachings.

shrewsbury
07-08-2012, 06:09 PM
habs, even a sage has a teacher, and a master has a master, settling for just knowing what you know is not for me.

wickabee, good post.

following God's law, then one "pays Caesar" and follows the law. If something goes against God's law and society says it's ok, then it's a Christian's duty to not do it despite what society says.

i think abortion is murder, and would never participate in it, but also I would never stop someone, so for abortion is a sin if i am involved with it.
someone as alex does not believe it is murder so how could it be a sin for him, the answer is, it is not.
though alex is not a christian, his only sin with abortion is he does not believe in jesus, not that he is prochoice

so for me to tell alex he is a sinner for being prochoice is very incorrect and goes against the teachings of jesus.

alex, hopefully you don't mind me using you as an example, but i believe it is a fair and honest comparison.

JustAlex
07-08-2012, 06:28 PM
Ok, ok, you can cool the hostility.

The fact is I'm going to say "Murder". You see if society says something is wrong and that doesn't keep one from following God's law, then one "pays Caesar" and follows the law. If something goes against God's law and society says it's ok, then it's a Christian's duty to not do it despite what society says. So I imagine abortion does fall under murder, by God's law, and therefor it is a Christian's duty to never have or condone an abortion.

Now is when you say, "So WHY do they WANT to make it illegal AND force everyone to follow THEIR beliefs?!?!?!?!?!?!"
Which is when I say I simply don't know, but I would guess that has more to do with HUMAN nature and the HUMAN construct of religion than it does with God or any of Christ's teachings.
First of all, I'm not being hostile, I'm discussing in a discussion forum.

Secondly, YOU agreed that there is nothing in the bible about a grown man marrying a 10 YO girl, but that our society deems that wrong and so we must follow societal laws.

So I countered with abortion which is NOT descriptively mentioned in the bible but of course most Christians classify it as "murder" even though society does NOT!

So....in this case christians are simply INTERPRETING abortion as murder and therefore it is "wrong"....BTW, this is the SAME group who 60% support the DEATH PENALTY!


The poll also found that of Christians who do support the death penalty, 60%, do so because of biblical teachings."
Source: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/national-polls-and-studies

It's simply LAUGHABLE and of course insanely HYPOCRITICAL of christians to out right support the DEATH penalty but despite what SCIENCE, BIOLOGY, and SOCIETY says about abortion, they keep on believing that that is "murder".


C'mon, this is so easy to see.....Christians are IMPOSING their beliefs based on their character NOT what the bible says!

Wickabee
07-08-2012, 06:42 PM
First of all, I'm not being hostile, I'm discussing in a discussion forum.

AS I have mentioned BEFORE, typing like this COMES ACROSS as hostile, whether you've explained it before or not.


Secondly, YOU agreed that there is nothing in the bible about a grown man marrying a 10 YO girl, but that our society deems that wrong and so we must follow societal laws.

So I countered with abortion which is NOT descriptively mentioned in the bible but of course most Christians classify it as "murder" even though society does NOT!
Yes and I explained the difference between the two.
Marrying a 10 year old is fine by God's law but not by the Law of the Land. Not marrying a 10yo is also fine in the eyes of God, he doesn't say everyone has to marry a 10yo. As such, a good Christian would never marry a 10yo because that is the opposite of paying Caesar's things to Caesar.

Abortion is wrong by God's law but not by the Law of the Land. As such Christians should follow God's law and never have anything to do with an abortion.

I don't know how to be clearer about this.


So....in this case christians are simply INTERPRETING abortion as murder and therefore it is "wrong"....BTW, this is the SAME group who 60% support the DEATH PENALTY!
Which is hypocritical as all get-out. Murder is murder and the only justifiable murder is one of defense.



The poll also found that of Christians who do support the death penalty, 60%, do so because of biblical teachings."

Source: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/national-polls-and-studies
Probably arguing "eye-for-an-eye". Thing is, that's part of the Mosaic Law, which Christ's death negated (just as it negated the notion that only Israelites could be saved). That just shows that 60% of the 60% use the Bible instead of follow it. I think we all have an idea that's completely true.


It's simply LAUGHABLE and of course insanely HYPOCRITICAL of christians to out right support the DEATH penalty but despite what SCIENCE, BIOLOGY, and SOCIETY says about abortion, they keep on believing that that is "murder".
You'll get no argument from me.



C'mon, this is so easy to see.....Christians are IMPOSING their beliefs based on their character NOT what the bible says!
Again, you'll get no arguments from me. I fail to see your actual point in all this, I was just answering questions (questions I assume you thought couldn't be answered).

I'm afraid that you, like so many others, are judging God based on religion. That's like basing hockey based on Rock 'em Sock 'em videos, or Rock music by Nickelback. It's just shortsighted.

JustAlex
07-08-2012, 06:54 PM
Let's go back to the original point of this thread......Is being gay a "sin"?

I contend that it is NOT a sin.

My reasoning behind it is that the bible is NOT the all moral guide that christians believe it is.

And for the most part WE agree......society makes up laws which can show rights and wrongs DESPITE what the bible says.

Bible: Slavery is OK.....Society: Slavery is NOT OK.

Bible: Pedophilia is not right or wrong......Society: Pedophilia is 100% WRONG!

So what does this teach us?.....that humans are capable of forming MORAL laws despite the bible and against the bible.

So, is Homosexuality a sin?

NO....just like Slavery is IMMORAL despite the fact that the bible says it's OK.


I simply used abortion as a way to show that society can make up laws which christians disagree with however it's also not in the bible, therefore they are INTERPRETING certain laws to be immoral.

shrewsbury
07-08-2012, 07:00 PM
alex, so sin to you is not what a run of the mill christian would think sin is?

if you don't think it is a sin, then by what jesus taught, it is not a sin, for only humans create sin.

Wickabee
07-08-2012, 07:07 PM
Let's go back to the original point of this thread......Is being gay a "sin"?

I contend that it is NOT a sin.

My reasoning behind it is that the bible is NOT the all moral guide that christians believe it is.
Well, that's your BELIEF vs their BELIEF. Neither is a fact.
I contend that male homosexuality is a sin, if they practice sodomy, and for both sexes if they are not married (fornication). I don't have a single doubt that's part of the reason for the fight against gay marriage. To keep homosexuality a sin no matter what, as it falls under fornication.


And for the most part WE agree......society makes up laws which can show rights and wrongs DESPITE what the bible says.

Bible: Slavery is OK.....Society: Slavery is NOT OK.

Bible: Pedophilia is not right or wrong......Society: Pedophilia is 100% WRONG!

Yes, there are societal laws and Biblical laws. If following a societal law means going against Biblical law, a Christian should not follow that law. If societal law says you can't do something that the bible says is okay, or doesn't say one way or the other, then you follow societal law. Which means that, while there is no biblical law about slavery, there is a societal one and we should follow that, because God doesn't say everyone has to have a slave. It's not hard to understand.


So what does this teach us?.....that humans are capable of forming MORAL laws despite the bible and against the bible.
We can also build houses and put on pants...what's your point?


So, is Homosexuality a sin?

NO....just like Slavery is IMMORAL despite the fact that the bible says it's OK.
To be fair, the Bible also says it's wrong to eat shellfish. I think everyone, even Christians, understand that there are parts of the bible that need not be heeded anymore, including slavery being ok.



I simply used abortion as a way to show that society can make up laws which christians disagree with however it's also not in the bible, therefore they are INTERPRETING certain laws to be immoral.
Funny, you seem to think most Christians don't think for themselves, and then you turn around and talk about how they're interpreting things. That's as much of a contradiction as anything you'll find in the Bible.


And I still don't know what your point is. That homosexuality is not a sin? Well, there are biblical arguments against that, like sodomy being a sin and that "man is not to lay with another man" or fornication and probably a few others (It does go against be fruitful and multiply). Are you so used to our societies redundant laws that you don't see that murder can cover abortionists and sodomy can cover homosexual men as sinners?

And for the record, since you come across as angrily arguing with me, I'm just responding. I don't think homosexuality is a sin, I am pro-choice (to a degree) and I think many, many Christians are very hypocritical.

JustAlex
07-08-2012, 07:10 PM
alex, so sin to you is not what a run of the mill christian would think sin is?

if you don't think it is a sin, then by what jesus taught, it is not a sin, for only humans create sin.
The only reason I'm even talking about sin is to be able to discuss with you guys...

I don't believe in "sin"!.....this means any and ALL sin!

I believe in right and wrong.

Murder is wrong.....however there are cases where murder can be right!

For example (war, defending yourself, or for the greater good).


Most christians believe homosexuality is a "sin" simply because a book tells them so.....there is no evidence or logical reasoning to believe that homosexuality is "wrong".

It IS natural since it occurs in nature (there are thousands of animal species that preform homosexuality) and moreover two consenting adults loving each other can never be wrong in my mind as long as they are not hurting anyone or each other.

Wickabee
07-08-2012, 07:14 PM
The only reason I'm even talking about sin is to be able to discuss with you guys...

I don't believe in "sin"!.....this means any and ALL sin!

I believe in right and wrong.

Murder is wrong.....however there are cases where murder can be right!

For example (war, defending yourself, or for the greater good).


Most christians believe homosexuality is a "sin" simply because a book tells them so.....there is no evidence or logical reasoning to believe that homosexuality is "wrong".

It IS natural since it occurs in nature (there are thousands of animal species that preform homosexuality) and moreover two consenting adults loving each other can never be wrong in my mind as long as they are not hurting anyone or each other.
You're back to your beliefs vs the beliefs of others. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be pretty upset that others don't think exactly as you do. You seem to think everyone should agree with you. You seem pretty hellbent on trying convince everyone you're right. You kind of talk down to those who don't agree with you.

And you do it all while degrading Christians for doing all those same things. So who's the hypocrite.



(I'm not attacking you, I'm not fighting you. I'm telling it as I see it and trying to understand you a little more, if not let you know just how you're coming across)

JustAlex
07-08-2012, 07:15 PM
@Wickabee basically you are equivilating homosexuality as fornication and therefore a "sin".

That's simply illogical since homosexuals are not allowed to get married in the U.S but they ARE allowed to get married in...oh I don't know.....CANADA!!!!

How can you defend that homosexuality is a sin when in your very country homosexual CAN get married and therefore NOT committing "fornication".

I FAIL to see YOUR point!

Wickabee
07-08-2012, 07:20 PM
@Wickabee basically you are equivilating homosexuality as fornication and therefore a "sin".
I said if they're not married. I will not read the rest of your post since you refused to actually read mine. Grow up.

JustAlex
07-08-2012, 07:24 PM
I said if they're not married. I will not read the rest of your post since you refused to actually read mine. Grow up.

I DID read your post, and despite the fact that you know what christians are doing, you are agreeing with them?

If not, why are you arguing my points?

Wickabee
07-08-2012, 07:35 PM
I DID read your post, and despite the fact that you know what christians are doing, you are agreeing with them?

If not, why are you arguing my points?

I'm explaining things that you don't seem to understand. Why don't you understand them, I don't know for sure, but I would guess stubbornness and age.

The fact of the matter, AND AS I SAID BEFORE, ALEX, is that I don't have a problem with homsexuality. But, as sin is defined in the Bible, homosexuality is, for the most part a sin as covered by other sins. If homosexuals are living in a state where gay marriage is not legal, that's fornication. If two males are having anal sex, that's sodomy, which is a sin. The Bible also says, a few times, that a man is not to lay with another man, so there's that.

As to why I'm arguing you, I'm not. I'm explaining things to you. You are the only one here arguing, which is why I said you should grow up. I don't agree that homosexuality is "wrong" but, as defined by the Bible, it's not hard to see that it is a "sin". Do I believe it? No. Do I see the argument for it? Absolutely, because I'm not pig-headed and stubborn and I don't think I know it all. Why can't you see the argument, well, I'll let you figure that out.

And okay, you read my posts, but you put no effort into comprehending what was actually said. Instead, you chose to place a completely different meaning into my posts than anything that was said. If you're not going to put any effort into comprehending what I say, or any thought into your responses, then everyone who's told me you're not worth talking to is correct and you're not.
If you want to try putting effort into comprehension and thought into your post, then by all means, reply away.

JustAlex
07-08-2012, 07:35 PM
@Wickabee, Ok, I just read your last post, I think I understand now...

Wickabee
07-08-2012, 07:40 PM
@Wickabee, Ok, I just read your last post, I think I understand now...

I hope so.

It's not about taking a side and arguing it as right. It's about looking at both sides and making an informed decision. Digging yourself firmly into one side or the other only gives us people like Rush Limbaugh and Bill Maher.

JustAlex
07-08-2012, 07:52 PM
I hope so.

It's not about taking a side and arguing it as right. It's about looking at both sides and making an informed decision. Digging yourself firmly into one side or the other only gives us people like Rush Limbaugh and Bill Maher.
To be perfectly honest with you, you're kinda hard to read, you really are.

I'm EASY to read, anyone can clearly and plainly see my position since I DO choose one side over the other the majority of the time.

Sometimes (such as this thread) I have no idea whether you're for or against homosexuality, I take back any and all comments which wrongfully made you out to look as if you also think homosexuality is wrong.

Although you say I'm stubborn, I actually have no problem admitting I'm wrong when it has been proven that I'm wrong.


Having said all of that, if you WERE discussing for homosexuality being wrong, then I stand behind everything I said!

And that goes out to ANYONE else who believes homosexuality is wrong...

drtom2005
07-08-2012, 07:58 PM
You're back to your beliefs vs the beliefs of others. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be pretty upset that others don't think exactly as you do. You seem to think everyone should agree with you. You seem pretty hellbent on trying convince everyone you're right. You kind of talk down to those who don't agree with you.

And you do it all while degrading Christians for doing all those same things. So who's the hypocrite.



(I'm not attacking you, I'm not fighting you. I'm telling it as I see it and trying to understand you a little more, if not let you know just how you're coming across)

Personally, I think the real issue is trying to hide behind their religion to cover their bias. Everyone has bias, but religous people just do not want to say I do not agree with the gay life style. It would be much better. People should admit their bias and own them. We all have them.

Wickabee
07-08-2012, 09:08 PM
To be perfectly honest with you, you're kinda hard to read, you really are.

I'm EASY to read, anyone can clearly and plainly see my position since I DO choose one side over the other the majority of the time.

Sometimes (such as this thread) I have no idea whether you're for or against homosexuality, I take back any and all comments which wrongfully made you out to look as if you also think homosexuality is wrong.

Although you say I'm stubborn, I actually have no problem admitting I'm wrong when it has been proven that I'm wrong.


Having said all of that, if you WERE discussing for homosexuality being wrong, then I stand behind everything I said!

And that goes out to ANYONE else who believes homosexuality is wrong...

Re: The bolded part

That's your problem. You're trying to figure out if I'm "for" or "against" homosexuality. Truth is, I'm neither. I'm not homosexual myself, but I don't give two craps if you are a homosexual or not. I think they should be able to get married if they want, but ultimately, it doesn't totally affect me in one way or the other. I suppose that means I'm "for" gay marriage, but I'm not (which isn't to say I'm against it, either).

So what am I for? I'm for understanding. If I am vehemently for something, say marijuana legalization (which I am completely in favour of by the way) I still strive to understand those who are against it. I try my damndest to understand their ideas, their interpretations, basically their logic. As such, when it comes down to it, I can argue for or against the topic, simply because I make it a point to see both sides. There are very few subjects where one side or the other is completely wrong and without a point. When it comes to marijuana legalization, I will argue for it all day, but I will also argue against someone who, while they may agree with me, is misguided. For example, pro-marijuana people who make the claim that marijuana is completely harmless. Why do I argue against that person? Because the facts are against him and by making that argument he is actually a detriment to my "side" of the argument.

If I'm hard to read, I have to ask what you're trying to read. You've already said you can't figure out if I'm "for" or "against" something. That's probably because I'm perpetually both. You see, it's not about arguing to get what you want or to convince other of what you believe. That's a mistake 99% of people make. It's about arguing to determine which side is right. It's a lesson that took me most of my 20s to learn and, occasionally, I still need a refresher. If you're simply arguing your point to prove that you're right, you've already lost and you won't have an argument, you'll have a fight. And fighting solves nothing. If my ability to look at both sides of an issue and even argue both sides of an issue confuses you, I have to wonder how you came to the conclusion of your beliefs. Without looking at both sides, how can you truly say you're informed? If you can't understand what you disagree with, how can you truly disagree with it? I've merely been trying to help you understand the other side. No matter what your beliefs, refusing to understand the other side, no matter how much you're "against" it, will only lead to frustration and anger.

Wickabee
07-08-2012, 09:15 PM
Personally, I think the real issue is trying to hide behind their religion to cover their bias. Everyone has bias, but religous people just do not want to say I do not agree with the gay life style. It would be much better. People should admit their bias and own them. We all have them.

Well, personally, I admit my bias. I remember telling a black person I worked with that I am racist. Just like that, right to his face (the look on which was priceless). Then I told him he's racist. Then I told him everyone on earth is racist. There's nothing wrong with prejudice and bias. I look at women differently than men. I look at blacks differently than whites. It's how you outwardly react to your prejudice that matters, not whether you have it, because everyone has it (and anyone who says otherwise is either lying or ignorant of their own bias and prejudice.).

I have to disagree with you to a degree though. The bible, while not outright saying "homosexuals are sinners" does vilify homosexuality quite a bit. While I don't doubt there are many Christians who use the Bible to affirm their own prejudices, I would bet there are many, many more who holds those prejudices because of their interpretation of the Bible.

To say it's all about affirming their own preconceived bias and prejudice is like telling a kid "The other kids only beat you up because they're jealous of you." Sure it sounds nice and the kid might feel better for a little while, but it's a lie. There are many reasons kids bully other kids. There are many reasons people are against homosexuality and, like it or not, their faith is one of those reasons, and I do not disagree with that.

I do disagree with their reaction to it, when it leads to messages of exclusion or hatred.

JustAlex
07-08-2012, 09:28 PM
BTW....did you see the video?

Because that kid made a great argument that the bible might not be against homosexuality as everyone thinks.

And since the bible could be interpreted in a million different ways, I say his argument is just as good as saying that the bible is AGAINST homosexuality.

As for the fact that you like understanding both sides.....I Agree, I just don't take your approach, I probably never will.


I KNOW for a FACT that homosexuality is not wrong, I make these arguments so others can start to question their beliefs and maybe bring in some skepticism.

I'm NOT trying to convert anyone or for them to agree with everything I say, I just simply wish to bring in my arguments and for them to consider them.

Wickabee
07-08-2012, 09:50 PM
BTW....did you see the video?
Nope


Because that kid made a great argument that the bible might not be against homosexuality as everyone thinks.
Don't care. When I actually have an hour to kill, I may watch. But I have a 1yr old daughter, so solid hours don't come along very often. Not to mention, why would I listen to some "kid"s interpretation of the Bible when I have my own copy I've read and continue to read from time to time and interpret myself? That would be like going to a church and having a pastor interpret the Bible for me. Is that what you're doing? Is this "kid" acting as a pastor for you? Or do you read the Bible and decide for yourself?


And since the bible could be interpreted in a million different ways, I say his argument is just as good as saying that the bible is AGAINST homosexuality.
I don't know what his argument is, and you're right about interpretation, but the Bible does say this:


If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltiness is upon them.
That's the New American Standard version. All versions are pretty much the same. I have to say, it's difficult to interpret that in any but one way.


As for the fact that you like understanding both sides.....I Agree, I just don't take your approach, I probably never will.
My approach is simply to understand what I am arguing for by understanding what they're arguing against. Without understanding both sides, you're just prattling on a soap box which, while fun, just makes one look preachy. I can't fathom why you would argue so vehemently against something you do not understand.



I KNOW for a FACT that homosexuality is not wrong, I make these arguments so others can start to question their beliefs and maybe bring in some skepticism.
No, you know for a belief. For all you truly know, God is real and he abhors homosexuality. You believe otherwise. So strongly you think it's a fact. But it's not, it's your belief. I will also point out that, while making your arguments for those reasons is noble, that's not what you do. While it may be your intent to get people thinking, you come across much the same (but opposite) as a conservative screaming "GOD HATES GAYS" over and over. That doesn't get anyone thinking. It gets cheers from those who already agree with you and ensures those who disagree will simply not listen. Again, this goes back to not understand what or who you are arguing against.


I'm NOT trying to convert anyone or for them to agree with everything I say, I just simply wish to bring in my arguments and for them to consider them.
Again, the manner in which you present your argument, RIGHT down to THE random capitalization OF WORDS, does nothing but ensure those who already agree with you will continue to do so and those who don't won't even bother to read. You may say that is their own fault, but there is something to be said for presentation.

Your arguments are the equivalent of good food thrown haphazardly on a plate. In substance it's great. The taste and texture are excellent. But if the presentation is terrible, I'm not going to want to eat it. If no one wants to listen to you, I would venture to guess it has nothing to do with content and everything to do with presentation. For the most part, once I force myself past the presentation, the core of your posts are good, very good even. But the way you present it now...if that plate landed on my table, I'd leave without paying the check.

shrewsbury
07-09-2012, 12:26 AM
drtom, why should christians be for or against any type of lifestyle?

if someone is against something purely for their religion, i would suggest to rethink and research what your religion is about.

drtom2005
07-09-2012, 01:04 AM
drtom, why should christians be for or against any type of lifestyle?

if someone is against something purely for their religion, i would suggest to rethink and research what your religion is about.

I'm not sure. I'm just concerned that some of the religous groups use their beliefs to discriminate against the LBGT community. Maybe, they just do not like the other groups decisons and use their religion to not say what they really believe. Maybe I'm wrong.

shrewsbury
07-09-2012, 01:15 AM
there are many fanatics that come in many different flavors. i can see the desire to maintain certain aspects of your life that has been handed down to you. and many of the LBGT can be extreme and expect everyone to change for them but offer no acceptance on their part.

i am a christian, if you came into my home, i would not expect you to believe in jesus, or pray, or read the bible, or be preached to, but i would expect you to not do anything that is against my beliefs in my home. just like i would not come to your home toting a bible, preaching, giving alms, and praying.

i could care less what someone does in the bedroom, or who they choose as their life partner, but i should not have to change my life for something you do, nor be exposed to things that is not part of my who i am, i will not talk jesus with you in your home, don't talk to me about things in my home.

of course if someone is interested i will talk all night and listen as well.

drtom2005
07-09-2012, 02:05 AM
I really can not disagree shrewsbury. I just wish more people were more honest like yourself.

mrveggieman
07-09-2012, 10:07 AM
Im going to sum it up like this. All of the books of the big 3 (OT, NT, Koran) are crystal clear in their stance against homosexuality. There is no way you can get it twisted. If you believe in 1 or any combination of the big three you cannot be homosexual and be right by God. However the big three all teach to be a good citizen and and to show love and compassion towards others. So even though I agree that God does not care for homosexuality, homosexuality in itself causes no harm to anyone in a secular sense and only religion has a problem with homosexuality. Therefore I am in full support of homosexuals having every legal right and responsibility that straight people do.

JustAlex
07-09-2012, 03:05 PM
Im going to sum it up like this. All of the books of the big 3 (OT, NT, Koran) are crystal clear in their stance against homosexuality. There is no way you can get it twisted. If you believe in 1 or any combination of the big three you cannot be homosexual and be right by God. However the big three all theach to be a good citizen and and to show love and compassion towards others. So even though I agree that God does not care for homosexuality, homosexuality in itself causes no harm to anyone in a secular sense and only religion has a problem with homosexuality. Therefore I am in support of homosexuals having ever legal right and responsibility that straight people do.
Correct me if I'm wrong Veggie, but from the various posts I have read from you in this forum, it is fair to call you a "moderate Christian"?

If so, I really wish more Christians would be like you!

Not because I want christians to agree with my position, but because too many christians in the U.S have become RADICAL and EXTREMIST.

It's funny, in this country you have millions of people who hate Radical Islam and unfortunately it later becomes pure hatred for all Islam, Muslims, and anything associated with it.


But they don't see how extremist they themselves have become!

Wickabee
07-09-2012, 03:13 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong Veggie, but from the various posts I have read from you in this forum, it is fair to call you a "moderate Christian"?

If so, I really wish more Christians would be like you!

Not because I want christians to agree with my position, but because too many christians in the U.S have become RADICAL and EXTREMIST.

It's funny, in this country you have millions of people who hate Radical Islam and unfortunately it later becomes pure hatred for all Islam, Muslims, and anything associated with it.


But they don't see how extremist they themselves have become!

What's really funny is that you do the same with Christians.

mrveggieman
07-09-2012, 03:16 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong Veggie, but from the various posts I have read from you in this forum, it is fair to call you a "moderate Christian"?

If so, I really wish more Christians would be like you!

Not because I want christians to agree with my position, but because too many christians in the U.S have become RADICAL and EXTREMIST.

It's funny, in this country you have millions of people who hate Radical Islam and unfortunately it later becomes pure hatred for all Islam, Muslims, and anything associated with it.


But they don't see how extremist they themselves have become!


Sounds like you are on point.

shrewsbury
07-09-2012, 03:26 PM
when nearly all christians oppress women, children, and gays, on a daily basis, then we can compare to islam or judaism. when christians have religious police that gather the gays and throw them in jail, when young girls can be kidnapped and forced to marry other christians, then we can compare radical islam to christianity.

the regular life of a muslim living in a muslim country is so much worse than what any christian is doing in america

i didn't post this to anger anyone, but it is the truth

mrveggieman
07-09-2012, 03:39 PM
when nearly all christians oppress women, children, and gays, on a daily basis, then we can compare to islam or judaism. when christians have religious police that gather the gays and throw them in jail, when young girls can be kidnapped and forced to marry other christians, then we can compare radical islam to christianity.

the regular life of a muslim living in a muslim country is so much worse than what any christian is doing in america

i didn't post this to anger anyone, but it is the truth

I will admit what the media portrays about muslim countries is generally worse than what goes on over here in an average day. However none of us on P&R as far as I know live in a majority muslim country so that point is entirely irrelevant. We need to be concerned with policing ourselves from homegrown fanatics and taking responsiblity for our own actions before we can point fingers at other countries for what they do. Mabey if we would set the example for love and tolerance instead of trying to compete with so called muslim countries as to be who can be more hateful and intollerant.

JustAlex
07-09-2012, 04:25 PM
What's really funny is that you do the same with Christians.
You can believe that if you want, there would be no point in having an argument about what I think.

I'm Anti-religion, but I don't hate religious people, I think they are sincere about their beliefs and I would definitely defend their rights to believe what they do.

BTW, of everyone I know in my personal life, NOT ONE, not a single person is an atheist like me, they all have (to some extend) a belief in God or some sort of religious connection.

And guess what.....we get along!

JustAlex
07-09-2012, 04:27 PM
when nearly all christians oppress women, children, and gays, on a daily basis, then we can compare to islam or judaism. when christians have religious police that gather the gays and throw them in jail, when young girls can be kidnapped and forced to marry other christians, then we can compare radical islam to christianity.

the regular life of a muslim living in a muslim country is so much worse than what any christian is doing in america

i didn't post this to anger anyone, but it is the truth
I'll agree with you Shrew.

Christianity is much more civilized and "modern" than the BARBARIC behavior you see in the middle east.

However, that still doesn't excuse some of the things we see from American christians such as wanting to impose their beliefs in government, shunning gays, and being intolerant of other beliefs and NON-beliefs.

We still have a long way to go...



EDIT: BTW, Christians ARE responsible for BOMBING various abortion clinics and even killing abortion doctors such as George Tiller......so there IS extremist and radical Christianity in this country.

Wickabee
07-09-2012, 04:33 PM
You can believe that if you want, there would be no point in having an argument about what I think.

I'm Anti-religion, but I don't hate religious people, I think they are sincere about their beliefs and I would definitely defend their rights to believe what they do.

BTW, of everyone I know in my personal life, NOT ONE, not a single person is an atheist like me, they all have (to some extend) a belief in God or some sort of religious connection.

And guess what.....we get along!

I can't speak to your personal life. Only how you act here.

JustAlex
07-09-2012, 04:45 PM
I can't speak to your personal life. Only how you act here.
I have never and will never insult anyone on this forum and just because you don't agree with my methods, that doesn't mean that I'm doing anything wrong.

The only way I can put my points across (sometimes) is to openly SCRUTINIZE some of the aspects of the bible/Christianity....this is simple criticism, and if others take it as insults, that's not my objective.

Personally, I don't agree with your methods, and some of the things you say, but we'll leave it at that.

Wickabee
07-09-2012, 04:49 PM
I have never and will never insult anyone on this forum and just because you don't agree with my methods, that doesn't mean that I'm doing anything wrong.

The only way I can put my points across (sometimes) is to openly SCRUTINIZE some of the aspects of the bible/Christianity....this is simple criticism, and if others take it as insults, that's not my objective.

Personally, I don't agree with your methods, and some of the things you say, but we'll leave it at that.

I'm just saying you tend to lump Christians together. Making all the same as the worst few, so to speak.

And yes, I know that you don't like how I examine both sides of an issue in an attempt to make an informed choice instead of making my choice and then making my arguments.

mrveggieman
07-09-2012, 04:52 PM
I'm just saying you tend to lump Christians together. Making all the same as the worst few, so to speak.

And yes, I know that you don't like how I examine both sides of an issue in an attempt to make an informed choice instead of making my choice and then making my arguments.

I don't think that alex is lumping all christians together just the one's who are off the deep end. He described me as a moderate christian and I take that as a compliment.

Wickabee
07-09-2012, 04:56 PM
I don't think that alex is lumping all christians together just the one's who are off the deep end. He described me as a moderate christian and I take that as a compliment.

Yes. The thing about it is, when one makes a statements in such a manner as "CHRISTIANS are to blame for..." well, that sort of speaks for itself. I think it comes across comparable to:

"I don't like black people. I mean, I know a few who are okay, but the rest of them are worthless"

I'm not saying this is how he thinks, I'm saying this is how he comes across as a whole.

mrveggieman
07-09-2012, 05:03 PM
Yes. The thing about it is, when one makes a statements in such a manner as "CHRISTIANS are to blame for..." well, that sort of speaks for itself. I think it comes across comparable to:

"I don't like black people. I mean, I know a few who are okay, but the rest of them are worthless"

I'm not saying this is how he thinks, I'm saying this is how he comes across as a whole.

I feel what you are saying. I think what he is trying to get at is that christians even muslims for that matter need to a better job policing themselves. If a christian does something stupid instead of saying the devil made him do it say hey man you need to check yourself you are making it bad for all of us. Or if a muslim does something stupid and claims to do it in the name of allah other muslims need to check him and say you do not represent islam and are making things worse for the true followers of islam.

shrewsbury
07-09-2012, 06:17 PM
veggie and alex, i agree with you both (wait that is not possible)

as a christian with what some would view as different leiefs in other christians, i find it impossible for christianity to oppress or discriminate against anyone.

i cannot think of a single teaching of Jesus that should not be followed, but i don't care in others vary from my beliefs as long as we are all making it and not hurting or oppressing anyone.

after rethinking this, i guess the only thing i am biased on is marriage.
i am not against homosexual relationships, as many of you know i have close friends who are homosexuals, but there is something about homosexual marriage that doesn't sit well with me, and i am sure it is my closed minded views on marriage and family.

after typing this i guess i would not have an issue if it was classified as homosexual or heterosexual marriage, rather than just marriage.

Wickabee
07-09-2012, 06:18 PM
I feel what you are saying. I think what he is trying to get at is that christians even muslims for that matter need to a better job policing themselves. If a christian does something stupid instead of saying the devil made him do it say hey man you need to check yourself you are making it bad for all of us. Or if a muslim does something stupid and claims to do it in the name of allah other muslims need to check him and say you do not represent islam and are making things worse for the true followers of islam.

You may be correct. But if one continually says "Christians are to blame for..." it really sounds like ALL Christians are being accused. This goes back to using tact and understand who/what you're talking about/to in the "Why do people feel the need to insult" thread.

JustAlex
07-09-2012, 06:26 PM
Shrew.....do you think most Christians should just disregard the OT completely?

I mean, I really don't see ANY reason to have it in today's modern world, and MOST of the criticisms from many atheists and other critics are towards the OT.

IMO, here's what will HELP the reputation of Christianity:

#1 Stop going against gay marriage rights.

#2 Don't mix government and your beliefs....this is to protect ALL religions.

#3 Keep public schools 100% neutral.


That's it....if we were to see these steps I think there would be a lot less argument and a lot more progress.

shrewsbury
07-09-2012, 10:19 PM
alex, i would not throw out the Ot, i ching, book of the yellow emperor, nor many other works, but as far as being a christian, i think it is hard enough to just try to figure out the teachings of jesus, but maybe i am just slow.

any large group will always draw people to dislike it and some of the people within to try and manipulate it, this is just humans being human.

#1- can we just rename marriage?
#2- this is possible, but would be tricky and take some real work
#3 - then human evolution, freud, human migration and many other things would have to also be looked at

and what else are we going to do, if we all thought a like, well, I would be kind of scared!!

Tivo32
07-10-2012, 01:21 AM
do you think most Christians should just disregard the OT completely?

I mean, I really don't see ANY reason to have it in today's modern world, and MOST of the criticisms from many atheists and other critics are towards the OT.

Part of the problem with this is: people pick up a Bible, read a paragraph or so, don't understand what they read, feel like they are experts, and post on the internet bashing what they read.

It'd be the equivalent of someone picking up a technical manual, reading something they didn't understand, and saying how stupid the technical manual was and how wrong and useless it is.

There are people who spend hours and hours of their life studying the Bible and original languages and themes and a whole lot more in an effort to better understand the Old Testament. It's a bit unfair to simply read two verses and comment on it as a whole.

mrveggieman
07-10-2012, 09:28 AM
Shrew.....do you think most Christians should just disregard the OT completely?

I mean, I really don't see ANY reason to have it in today's modern world, and MOST of the criticisms from many atheists and other critics are towards the OT.

IMO, here's what will HELP the reputation of Christianity:

#1 Stop going against gay marriage rights.

#2 Don't mix government and your beliefs....this is to protect ALL religions.

#3 Keep public schools 100% neutral.


That's it....if we were to see these steps I think there would be a lot less argument and a lot more progress.

No christian is allowed to disregard the OT per John 5:46-47

“For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

However I do agree with your 3 points.

habsheaven
07-10-2012, 09:36 AM
Part of the problem with this is: people pick up a Bible, read a paragraph or so, don't understand what they read, feel like they are experts, and post on the internet bashing what they read.

It'd be the equivalent of someone picking up a technical manual, reading something they didn't understand, and saying how stupid the technical manual was and how wrong and useless it is.

There are people who spend hours and hours of their life studying the Bible and original languages and themes and a whole lot more in an effort to better understand the Old Testament. It's a bit unfair to simply read two verses and comment on it as a whole.

The problem with the OT is that it contains chapter after chapter of scripture describing events that simply cannot be true. It also sets out laws that are WRONG, regardless of when they were in effect. For those reasons, the whole OT gets cast in a bad light. People who spend their lives trying to interpret the OT so that it conforms with their beliefs only prove that the impression laymen have of the OT is correct.

shrewsbury
07-10-2012, 11:14 AM
floods, earthquakes, tsunamis, people enslaved, murder, death, war, sex, rulers, doesn't seem to far fetched to me.

habsheaven
07-10-2012, 12:29 PM
floods, earthquakes, tsunamis, people enslaved, murder, death, war, sex, rulers, doesn't seem to far fetched to me.

Nope, not at all far-fetched if you can look past all the "facts" you are not listing. 900 year old people? 6,000 year old Earth? Ships big enough to hold a pair of every land animal in existence, not to mention the logistics of collecting them? Etc, Etc, Etc ....

Tivo32
07-10-2012, 12:39 PM
Nope, not at all far-fetched if you can look past all the "facts" you are not listing. 900 year old people? 6,000 year old Earth? Ships big enough to hold a pair of every land animal in existence, not to mention the logistics of collecting them? Etc, Etc, Etc ....

No where in Scripture does it state that the earth is 6,000 years old. People arrived at that number from adding up genealogies which don't necessarily have to have been a full or complete genealogy.

habsheaven
07-10-2012, 12:59 PM
No where in Scripture does it state that the earth is 6,000 years old. People arrived at that number from adding up genealogies which don't necessarily have to have been a full or complete genealogy.

You are right. It doesn't state the age of the Earth in the OT, although I am curious to know how old those people, who spend countless hours of their lives studying it, believe the Earth to be. Obviously they are missing a few generations of 900 year old people.

mrveggieman
07-10-2012, 01:02 PM
Nope, not at all far-fetched if you can look past all the "facts" you are not listing. 900 year old people? 6,000 year old Earth? Ships big enough to hold a pair of every land animal in existence, not to mention the logistics of collecting them? Etc, Etc, Etc ....


Also with the bible you can not take when they refer to days, years, and ages literally. The bible says with the lord 1 day is the equivilent of 1000 years and vice versa. Scholars speculate on years of certian events and people but there is no way to know any of them for a fact.

shrewsbury
07-10-2012, 01:04 PM
tivo, great response.

habs, though i know where you are heading, you must remember that the OT was not written directly by god, in His language.

6000 year old earth - that was conclusion of a man that not many christians accept
900 year old people - conclusion of man, and considering how time was kept how would they know how old anyone was?
ships beg enough to hold all animals - well then we get into evolution, so no dogs, cats, and a lot less animals, but still pretty crazy

Tivo32
07-10-2012, 01:17 PM
You are right. It doesn't state the age of the Earth in the OT, although I am curious to know how old those people, who spend countless hours of their lives studying it, believe the Earth to be. Obviously they are missing a few generations of 900 year old people.

You know what I find to be silly and a waste of time? Acupuncture. There are plenty of people who swear by it and say it works. And there are a lot of people (including me) who thinks it's totally ridiculous and makes no sense at all. But you know what? I respect the people who have spent time, energy, and money learning and studying how to do acupuncture. They know more than me.

I know you probably don't want to think or believe this, but there are people who might know more about the Bible and what's in it than you do.

I'm not saying that gives answers to the age of the earth or the 900 year old people, but what I am saying is mocking them or using sarcastic overtones minimizing what they've spent their life doing isn't fair either.

Tivo32
07-10-2012, 01:18 PM
ships beg enough to hold all animals - well then we get into evolution, so no dogs, cats, and a lot less animals, but still pretty crazy

What if all the animals were under a week old when they were brought onto the ark?

habsheaven
07-10-2012, 02:32 PM
You know what I find to be silly and a waste of time? Acupuncture. There are plenty of people who swear by it and say it works. And there are a lot of people (including me) who thinks it's totally ridiculous and makes no sense at all. But you know what? I respect the people who have spent time, energy, and money learning and studying how to do acupuncture. They know more than me.

I know you probably don't want to think or believe this, but there are people who might know more about the Bible and what's in it than you do.

I'm not saying that gives answers to the age of the earth or the 900 year old people, but what I am saying is mocking them or using sarcastic overtones minimizing what they've spent their life doing isn't fair either.

The fact that you think, that I might think I know more about the Bible than people that study it is baffling. I guess that makes it easier for me to accept that you think i am mocking them and speaking in a sarcastic tone. To set the record straight, all those perceptions of me are false. I am not minimizing the devotion people show to a subject matter that means so much to them. I am questioning their motives and goals. Are they seeking the truth to what they read in the Bible, or are they trying to create explanations to justify their unwavering belief?

habsheaven
07-10-2012, 02:35 PM
What if all the animals were under a week old when they were brought onto the ark?

They would require their mother's milk.


See, this is typical of the believer's reaction to a non-believers disbelief. Wouldn't a more logical response be; maybe they exaggerated the story for effect?

Tivo32
07-10-2012, 02:38 PM
They would require their mother's milk.



Good point.

Tivo32
07-10-2012, 02:40 PM
The fact that you think, that I might think I know more about the Bible than people that study it is baffling. I guess that makes it easier for me to accept that you think i am mocking them and speaking in a sarcastic tone. To set the record straight, all those perceptions of me are false. I am not minimizing the devotion people show to a subject matter that means so much to them. I am questioning their motives and goals. Are they seeking the truth to what they read in the Bible, or are they trying to create explanations to justify their unwavering belief?

I apologize then.

For what it's worth, many of the people I have met who have studied the Bible in some sort of academic setting want to understand better and deeper the truth of what they read in the Bible. I have met many crazy people as well. But most of those assume they don't need an education or to study to back up their beliefs. Most who put their money where their mouth is are sincere in learning and understanding.

texansrangerfan73
07-10-2012, 02:42 PM
I'm not watching the video but my answer should sum it up: Personal Opinion, who am I to judge but I do have opinions!!

shrewsbury
07-10-2012, 03:05 PM
opinions are welcomed here


habs and tevo, maybe the others than were on the ark besides noahs people are some how related the answering the riddle

habsheaven
07-10-2012, 03:21 PM
No idea what you are saying Jay, so I won't quote it.

shrewsbury
07-10-2012, 03:58 PM
i will need to wait to i get home to get into my notes, but i think you will like the original hebrew version of who was on the ark, quite interesting