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mrveggieman
07-08-2012, 03:46 PM
Believe it or not I actually thought of this while I was at church. Check this out. I often hear atheists complaining about the books used by the big 3 religions. They say that the OT, NT, Koran have laws and customs that are unacceptable by todays standards not to mention downright barbaric, have errors and contradict themselves as well as speaking of things that are scientifically impossible and they want to use that as proof that God does not exists. I can respect that. Let's say for the sake of argument that the big 3 religions are indeed false. That does not prove that God is not real it only says that certian religions are false. Even if you don't like or agree with the big 3 have any of you ever considered finding God some other way. This question is directed for the atheists but anyone can respond. Also christians if you would like to respond please bring something to discussion besides christanity is the only real religion and the only way to salvation.

shrewsbury
07-08-2012, 06:21 PM
veggie,

I missed this thread.

whether someone sees it as seeking god or an explanation of life, they both lead to the same direction, a singularity, a one.

and no one has anything to bring to the table as an absolute to prove who knows what.

drtom2005
07-08-2012, 08:15 PM
Well, I admit there is no way to prove a higher power at this point. My concern is people ascribe themselves to their belief in god. When people describe a perfect being, they tend to describe themselves as perfect(What would I be if I were perfect?).


As for higher power, yeah, it a possiblity(it could be the universe for all I know). The personal gods most people describe are not real. If there is something more power then us, it is nothing that a human could comprehend at this point. I would like a better definition of what people are looking for in a god.

shrewsbury
07-08-2012, 09:00 PM
what you are looking for in a god? so it is like car shopping?

the only thing anyone could understand about god is god is where we all came from, whether directly or not, everything came from the one source.

drtom2005
07-08-2012, 09:04 PM
what you are looking for in a god? so it is like car shopping?

the only thing anyone could understand about god is god is where we all came from, whether directly or not, everything came from the one source.

And my point is prove it(god). As for car shopping, yes, I think that could be part of being human. Looking for meaning for this life in a higher power, instead of just appreciating just being alive. Appreciating all of the causal events leading to life on this planet and the life of each and every person.

shrewsbury
07-08-2012, 09:20 PM
you must not have ever read any of my posts, you challenge me to prove god, but yet you cannot prove anything else, seems fair.

so someone who believes in a god does not appreciate being alive, life itself, or the life of others?

we are a lost soul seeking something more important to us but we lack something?

perhaps those who do not seek anything are content of living blindly and following whatever comes along at the moment.

Wickabee
07-08-2012, 09:29 PM
Are we really arguing burden of proof here?

Let's just say both or neither has the burden of proof. Better yet let's all at once agree that there is no absolute proof of anything and we're discussing belief which is subjective at best.

Even better, let's stop treating God-centered discussion as though it were a courtroom drama.

JustAlex
07-08-2012, 09:40 PM
Possibility of the existence of God?

Sure, I can believe it.....with sufficient proof!

Unfortunately we have ZERO, whereas we DO have some evidenece for the origins of the universe and humans WITHOUT the possibility of god.

Regardless, Evolution, The Big Bang Theory, and Abiogensis does not disprove god.....but it does give the Naturalistic claim a LOT more evidence than the ZERO that the Supernatural claim has.

Wickabee
07-08-2012, 09:52 PM
Possibility of the existence of God?

Sure, I can believe it.....with sufficient proof!

Unfortunately we have ZERO, whereas we DO have some evidenece for the origins of the universe and humans WITHOUT the possibility of god.

Regardless, Evolution, The Big Bang Theory, and Abiogensis does not disprove god.....but it does give the Naturalistic claim a LOT more evidence than the ZERO that the Supernatural claim has.

Until someone comes along and says those things were just God's method. Then you're right back to square 1, being unable to prove or disprove that claim to any degree.

drtom2005
07-08-2012, 09:58 PM
you must not have ever read any of my posts, you challenge me to prove god, but yet you cannot prove anything else, seems fair.

so someone who believes in a god does not appreciate being alive, life itself, or the life of others?

we are a lost soul seeking something more important to us but we lack something?

perhaps those who do not seek anything are content of living blindly and following whatever comes along at the moment.


Yes, with extraordinary claims, evidence is needed. As for people believing in god(s), I really do not care. I just get concerned when any group of people use their group beliefs to hurt or harm some other group.

If you want to believe in a god, cool.

By the way, I do not appreciate the implication that atheists are some type of nilhilist. Apperciating everything that is here and now and yet to come within the constraints of this physical form makes life that much more important.

drtom2005
07-08-2012, 09:59 PM
Until someone comes along and says those things were just God's method. Then you're right back to square 1, being unable to prove or disprove that claim to any degree.

Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.

JustAlex
07-08-2012, 10:03 PM
Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.
And we currently have ZERO!

Could someone say that evolution and the big bang were caused by god?

Sure.

They just have to throw away EVERYTHING that the big 3 religions preach, since they are ALL in conflict with science.

Wickabee
07-08-2012, 10:14 PM
Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.

And I've never seen extraordinary evidence either way, so both claims are equally valid.

Wickabee
07-08-2012, 10:14 PM
And we currently have ZERO!

Could someone say that evolution and the big bang were caused by god?

Sure.

They just have to throw away EVERYTHING that the big 3 religions preach, since they are ALL in conflict with science.

Explain how saying God caused the Big Bang contradicts God being the creator.

JustAlex
07-08-2012, 10:20 PM
And I've never seen extraordinary evidence either way, so both claims are equally valid.
Well, evolution has mountains of evidence and is considered TRUE by 99.9% of the Scientific community.


Explain how saying God caused the Big Bang contradicts God being the creator.
It doesn't.

But it contradicts Genesis.

drtom2005
07-08-2012, 10:21 PM
And I've never seen extraordinary evidence either way, so both claims are equally valid.

I disagree. If something like a god was real, there would be evidence. The negative claim needs no evidence.

habsheaven
07-08-2012, 10:22 PM
I do not know if there is a supreme being or not. With that being said, for all the things veggie states and many other things, I am quite certain that MAN doesn't have a clue one way or the other. I find it arrogant of man to think he needs a purpose for his life and that God chose him, etc, etc.

Does my curiosity want me to know about the origins of our species? Sure. Am I blindly going through life because I don't know the answers, and am not seeking them through a deity? Absolutely not!

shrewsbury
07-09-2012, 12:23 AM
drtom, no direct attack intended, was just replying to your previous post.

and i agree anyone or group that hurts anyone for any reason should not be tolerated.

I cannot supply you with any proof, but i will take the easy way out and say that is what faith is about.

my teacher is a buddhist so I do love the here and now, it is all that we have.

drtom2005
07-09-2012, 12:48 AM
drtom, no direct attack intended, was just replying to your previous post.

and i agree anyone or group that hurts anyone for any reason should not be tolerated.

I cannot supply you with any proof, but i will take the easy way out and say that is what faith is about.

my teacher is a buddhist so I do love the here and now, it is all that we have.

I apologize. I jumped to conclusions at times. I'm just tired of hearing the same old things about atheists.
I can guarantee that most of the people in this country and world live their life the same way day to day.

shrewsbury
07-09-2012, 01:06 AM
drtom, life is not evidence? I will explain god once anyone can explain where all this came from. it is nice to have the option to say I do not need to disprove you, you just need to prove it to me.

alex, evolution of humans is a hypothesis, not a fact. nature and god are not the same, everything may have came from one source, but it does not mean that one source needs to control it all. if anyone says evolution is nonsense, i would imagine most believe the earth is 6000 years old, obviously at this point can you really debate or exchange with someone like that?

drtom2005
07-09-2012, 01:11 AM
[QUOTE=shrewsbury;11826173]drtom, life is not evidence? I will explain god once anyone can explain where all this came from. it is nice to have the option to say I do not need to disprove you, you just need to prove it to me.

QUOTE]

Well, my bias is science. It works. In the scientific method, if a person makes a claim, they need to prove it. It is how I view the natural world. As for anything outside of the natural world, by definition in science, it is not real.

I forgot to mention something. Life only proves the universe. With the way the rules are set up in the universe, life is most likely a result of the randomness with constrained rules. All life proves is the universe is a great place to live.

shrewsbury
07-09-2012, 01:18 AM
drtom, explain to me why human evolution is a hypothesis and not a fact. if it is a fact why is their not total agreement on simple things(and must haves) such as the evolution of quadruped to bipedal?

drtom2005
07-09-2012, 01:33 AM
drtom, explain to me why human evolution is a hypothesis and not a fact. if it is a fact why is their not total agreement on simple things(and must haves) such as the evolution of quadruped to bipedal?


Well, is not a hypotheisis. Is a theory(this is equivalent to fact in common language). There is much evidence for the theory. I suggest you watch Becoming Human mini-series from PBS. I just watched it today.

The short synapses of human evolution is as follows(this is what we know now).

Our ancestors in Africa came out of trees during a significant climate change 3 million years ago. So far about 4 species of homininds from our line have been found. They probably walked upright because bipedal locomotion requires less energy than the quadruped locomotion that other primates do(less energy means less food required to survive).

There is a about 2 million years until the next jump, Homo erectus. There brians where slightly bigger and they were less hairy. The also ran long distances better then homonids before. These changes likely made humans better hunters. Unlike lions or other predators, they could run longer because of these changes. They would tire out prey items.


The last jump was during a severe climate swing. Our ancestors moved to the coast and had to start hunting and gathering different food items.


The overriding driver of the changes in humans was climate change. Each time there was dramatic change humans became more generalists and smarter.

It made a little less concerned about the next event. Unless something dramatic happens, humans will likely be around for awhile. We are extreme generalist, able to adapt to many environments.

shrewsbury
07-09-2012, 01:48 AM
Our ancestors in Africa came out of trees during a significant climate change 3 million years ago. So far about 4 species of homininds from our line have been found. They probably walked upright because bipedal locomotion requires less energy than the quadruped locomotion that other primates do(less energy means less food required to survive).

this sounds great but is not even close to a fact in any language, the so called fact stated above is one of many great sounding facts that differ greatly, from grassland to the sea shores. though these are all well thought out, there is no evidence that all agree means the same thing.

there are so many factors and hard evidence that change and redate the evolution of humans, that is is far from fact.

drtom2005
07-09-2012, 01:55 AM
this sounds great but is not even close to a fact in any language, the so called fact stated above is one of many great sounding facts that differ greatly, from grassland to the sea shores. though these are all well thought out, there is no evidence that all agree means the same thing.

there are so many factors and hard evidence that change and redate the evolution of humans, that is is far from fact.

Such as? I'm always open to looking into new evidence I haven't read.

As for the language of science, theory is fact in common language. I am not going to argue that point.

Star_Cards
07-10-2012, 02:35 PM
While my discussions or god or no god revolve around the major religions that are popular today, I don't believe any, even ones outside of the main ones, to be true. There have been so many religions from the accepted ones of today to the ones of native americans or even greek or egyptian mythology. I just have no belief in the super natural and that is where the basis of my atheistic opinions root. A lot of my distaste for religion has to do with the people and leaders of current religions wanting to mold their peers into their specific religious ideals. However, that does not cause me to be an atheist. I'd feel the same even if there wasn't a pressure by some to create the United States under the rules and ideals of christianity.

Star_Cards
07-10-2012, 03:04 PM
to the discussion about evolution... even if evolution was proven or disproven, that would have zero bearing on if there was a god or not. It would have an effect on some religious creationist theories, but a god and evolution could/can co-exist in my opinion.

shrewsbury
07-10-2012, 04:01 PM
drtom, the easiest place to start is with the savannah vs aquatic hypothesis

one new event would be the hobbits of flores

drtom2005
07-11-2012, 03:25 PM
drtom, the easiest place to start is with the savannah vs aquatic hypothesis

one new event would be the hobbits of flores

The hobbits of flores are a minature of homo erectus. This happens when animals go to islands. The dinosaurs did this also.

What specifically is the question about the savannah versus the aquatic hypothesis? I'm not sure if I have read up on those or if they have a different name then the on you are talking about.

gatorscollector
07-11-2012, 03:32 PM
just wanted to let you all know God is capitalized. and yes i agree shrushbury, everyone came from one source, and that source is God, wether or not people reading this thread believe their is a one and only God, I believe their is, because the true creator of this earth is also the ruler of this earth, he brought all of us here, he put this into your mind whoever started this. I also like seeing threads like these where we can be open about our faith and religion and talk openly, thanks man

mrveggieman
07-11-2012, 03:35 PM
just wanted to let you all know God is capitalized. and yes i agree shrushbury, everyone came from one source, and that source is God, wether or not people reading this thread believe their is a one and only God, I believe their is, because the true creator of this earth is also the ruler of this earth, he brought all of us here, he put this into your mind whoever started this. I also like seeing threads like these where we can be open about our faith and religion and talk openly, thanks man

:thumb:

habsheaven
07-11-2012, 03:38 PM
It's comforting to know that God is corrupting my mind and making me disbelieve. I love this freedom of not having to be accountable for anything.

"You have a problem with me? Tough, take it up with God." lol

shrewsbury
07-11-2012, 04:08 PM
habs, who said YOU are no accountable for anything?!!!!!

are we back to free will?

and if someone thinks god rules the earth, i would like to debate that, because you may be wrong, or i may be crazy.

shrewsbury
07-11-2012, 04:10 PM
ust wanted to let you all know God is capitalized. and yes i agree shrushbury,

um, Shrewsbury, which is capitalized, but god is cool if i don't use caps, He knows it's me and not done out of disrespect.

habsheaven
07-11-2012, 04:20 PM
gatorscollector said, "he put this into your mind whoever started this."

I took that to mean whomever started this thread did so because God put the idea into his mind.



habs, who said YOU are no accountable for anything?!!!!!

are we back to free will?

and if someone thinks god rules the earth, i would like to debate that, because you may be wrong, or i may be crazy.

habsheaven
07-11-2012, 04:23 PM
I always try to capitalize the christian God and even remember to capitalize the pronouns despite my disbelief. I think it is grammatically correct to do so. I don't really do it out of respect (at least I don't think so).



um, Shrewsbury, which is capitalized, but god is cool if i don't use caps, He knows it's me and not done out of disrespect.

Star_Cards
07-11-2012, 05:26 PM
gatorscollector said, "he put this into your mind whoever started this."

I took that to mean whomever started this thread did so because God put the idea into his mind.

I also was curious about this statement. Seems weird that a god (lowercased because I'm speaking about any god) would create people who are staunch non believers. Why would he do this if he programs everybody on where their beliefs lie.

Gatorcollector, if you believe that your God put the thoughts of disbelief in our heads, then how do you know that it's not really the God Zues or Budda, or any other god that you don't believe in who created us all and it was you who he put the thoughts in your head to believe an untrue god? Seems like if you know this to be true, it could easily be turned to say that about any other god.

mrveggieman
07-11-2012, 08:57 PM
I also was curious about this statement. Seems weird that a god (lowercased because I'm speaking about any god) would create people who are staunch non believers. Why would he do this if he programs everybody on where their beliefs lie.

Gatorcollector, if you believe that your God put the thoughts of disbelief in our heads, then how do you know that it's not really the God Zues or Budda, or any other god that you don't believe in who created us all and it was you who he put the thoughts in your head to believe an untrue god? Seems like if you know this to be true, it could easily be turned to say that about any other god.

Good points. Only thing is Buddah is not a god, he is only a teacher or prophet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddah

Wickabee
07-11-2012, 09:02 PM
I was gonna point that out but figured it distracted from his point for the sake of semantics.

mrveggieman
07-11-2012, 09:10 PM
I was gonna point that out but figured it distracted from his point for the sake of semantics.


It wasn't a knock on star cards who always makes good points but I just had to point that one out there because I am always hearing people make ignorant comments saying that their religion is greater because they worship a living god unlike buddhist who worship buddah who is in his grave. News flash to those people Buddah is not a god and buddhist do not worship him.

Wickabee
07-11-2012, 09:16 PM
It wasn't a knock on star cards who always makes good points but I just had to point that one out there because I am always hearing people make ignorant comments saying that their religion is greater because they worship a living god unlike buddhist who worship buddah who is in his grave. News flash to those people Buddah is not a god and buddhist do not worship him.

Fair enough, fair enough. For what it's worth I wore a smirk as I typed that.

JustAlex
07-16-2012, 06:36 AM
just wanted to let you all know God is capitalized. and yes i agree shrushbury, everyone came from one source, and that source is God, wether or not people reading this thread believe their is a one and only God, I believe their is, because the true creator of this earth is also the ruler of this earth, he brought all of us here, he put this into your mind whoever started this. I also like seeing threads like these where we can be open about our faith and religion and talk openly, thanks man
If god is the "ruler of this earth" can you explain why he allows horrific things such as WWII to occur?

50-60 Million people died during WWII, including 6 Million of his "Chosen people", I think if he's really the "ruler" of this earth, he's not doing a good job at it.


I guess this is the part where you and others will say "God gives us free will".....but I feel that's a cop-out, the god of the OT interfered with humans numerous times.

And many are quick to say "It's a miracle" when they are healed of some disease or something incredible happens in their lives.

Well.....SORRY, but it's NOT a miracle, because god is not allowed to interfere, remember?


So, basically:

Something incredibly GOOD happens = Miracle (Which is a contraindication to having "free will")

Something incredibly BAD happens = ??? (God works in mysterious ways???)

Star_Cards
07-16-2012, 10:20 AM
Good points. Only thing is Buddah is not a god, he is only a teacher or prophet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddah

meh, you got the point. :)

Star_Cards
07-16-2012, 10:25 AM
It wasn't a knock on star cards who always makes good points but I just had to point that one out there because I am always hearing people make ignorant comments saying that their religion is greater because they worship a living god unlike buddhist who worship buddah who is in his grave. News flash to those people Buddah is not a god and buddhist do not worship him.

So what's your take on my original point? I guess that would be, why are people who believe that god even created the thoughts of atheism so sure that the thoughts god put in their minds are right? I know that is not the best way to word it, but I'm really curious to my post.

although I do appreciate being corrected on Buddhism. My knowledge is obviously lacking.

Star_Cards
07-16-2012, 10:29 AM
If god is the "ruler of this earth" can you explain why he allows horrific things such as WWII to occur?

50-60 Million people died during WWII, including 6 Million of his "Chosen people", I think if he's really the "ruler" of this earth, he's not doing a good job at it.


I guess this is the part where you and others will say "God gives us free will".....but I feel that's a cop-out, the god of the OT interfered with humans numerous times.

And many are quick to say "It's a miracle" when they are healed of some disease or something incredible happens in their lives.

Well.....SORRY, but it's NOT a miracle, because god is not allowed to interfere, remember?


So, basically:

Something incredibly GOOD happens = Miracle (Which is a contraindication to having "free will")

Something incredibly BAD happens = ??? (God works in mysterious ways???)

Well I guess one would answer that based on their belief of free will or if they belief god maps out everything.

I do agree with you that most of the explanations I hear just sound like convenient cop outs. There's nothing more void of content that a statement like, it was god's plan, or something similar. It's all just to put a good spin on things from my perspective. When I hear the world miracle I say coincidence.

mrveggieman
07-16-2012, 11:00 AM
To answer your questions starcards I really don't know why God would allow horrific things such as wars, faminie, hatred, atheism (lol just kidding) to occur. They only thing I can say is that he infinite wisdom and must know what he is doing.

shrewsbury
07-16-2012, 11:04 AM
it is not about God allowing anything, He created us and earth, but what happens on earth is not under His direct control. Natural forces, man, and even the good old devil is in charge here

Star_Cards
07-16-2012, 11:05 AM
To answer your questions starcards I really don't know why God would allow horrific things such as wars, faminie, hatred, atheism (lol just kidding) to occur. They only thing I can say is that he infinite wisdom and must know what he is doing.

lol @ atheism. nice.

It's definitely a nice debate. For me, the infinite wisdom thing, is just a sugar coated un-explanation of sorts. It's like an explanation without explaining anything really, at least to me. It basically all goes back to what one accepts since there's zero concrete information confirming it. Which is completely fine by me, it's the beauty of being able to believe as you please.

Star_Cards
07-16-2012, 11:08 AM
That may be true as far as your belief goes or anyone else who believes in free will and a creator. However, for gatorscollector, it sounds like he said that his God created atheist when he said that...

shrewsbury
07-16-2012, 12:45 PM
if you want to bring the christian god into it all you have to do is go back to jesus.

then you will see that God does not control you or the earth, this is simple and plain to see, no way to debate it.

habsheaven
07-16-2012, 01:11 PM
I get a kick out of the arrogance of people who believe God performed a miracle on them by curing them of this illness or that illness, yet He let the guy down the street die. What a great feeling to know God cherrypicked you out of a crowd to save.

mrveggieman
07-16-2012, 01:23 PM
I get a kick out of the arrogance of people who believe God performed a miracle on them by curing them of this illness or that illness, yet He let the guy down the street die. What a great feeling to know God cherrypicked you out of a crowd to save.

My bishop teaches that when you pray to God you are not giving him information because he already knows what your problem(s) are but your are giving him and invitation to help out. Mabey they guy down the street didn't ask for God's help. I'm comforted in knowing if I was ever facing a life or death storm I could ask God to assist me.

Star_Cards
07-16-2012, 01:41 PM
if you want to bring the christian god into it all you have to do is go back to jesus.

then you will see that God does not control you or the earth, this is simple and plain to see, no way to debate it.

well there are obviously other christians who don't believe that.

Star_Cards
07-16-2012, 01:44 PM
I get a kick out of the arrogance of people who believe God performed a miracle on them by curing them of this illness or that illness, yet He let the guy down the street die. What a great feeling to know God cherrypicked you out of a crowd to save.

I'm on the same page. It's absurd to think your faith or god allowed you to survive where others perish of the same thing.

habsheaven
07-16-2012, 01:45 PM
My bishop teaches that when you pray to God you are not giving him information because he already knows what your problem(s) are but your are giving him and invitation to help out. Mabey they guy down the street didn't ask for God's help. I'm comforted in knowing if I was ever facing a life or death storm I could ask God to assist me.

Really? You think that everyone that asks for God's help gets it? And those that don't get a miracle, either didn't ask or didn't ask right, or didn't deserve help?

mrveggieman
07-16-2012, 02:21 PM
Really? You think that everyone that asks for God's help gets it? And those that don't get a miracle, either didn't ask or didn't ask right, or didn't deserve help?


I don't know all the answers I was merely speculating. You may want to take your questions directly to God.

Wickabee
07-16-2012, 02:21 PM
Really? You think that everyone that asks for God's help gets it?
The best answer ever to this question came on an episode of M*A*S*H. A soldier who thinks he's Jesus is being treated at the camp. Radar (I think) asks the man, "Does God really answer all prayers?" The man Answers, "Yes. Sometimes the answer is no."


And those that don't get a miracle, either didn't ask or didn't ask right, or didn't deserve help?
Why not?

shrewsbury
07-16-2012, 02:29 PM
star cards, i know there are, but you would think they would have read the NT and read about jesus and his 40 days in the desert. the devil offers him to rule the earth


8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]”

didn't see jesus saying, no you can't because I / God rules the earth, but only brings up who should be worshipped.

so if other christians think differently, why???????????

Star_Cards
07-16-2012, 02:52 PM
star cards, i know there are, but you would think they would have read the NT and read about jesus and his 40 days in the desert. the devil offers him to rule the earth



didn't see jesus saying, no you can't because I / God rules the earth, but only brings up who should be worshipped.

so if other christians think differently, why???????????

This is a major question that I have of christianity or any religion really. There are so many different off shoots that have varying ideas and interpretations of a single religion. In my opinion a lot of these are around because a group of people didn't want to follow an original idea or more and decided to split off. Another reason for this is probably because of where ever a person learns about their religion. A lot of people learn via another person telling them so all of those people telling their own congregation will certainly have different interpretations. It's ironic to hear when you have people saying one religion is a true religion and people under the same umbrella of a religion and having vastly varying views on lots of different ideals. Sort of hurts the integrity in my opinion.

habsheaven
07-16-2012, 02:59 PM
I don't know all the answers I was merely speculating. You may want to take your questions directly to God.

If you are going to speculate shouldn't you bring logic into the equation? God has yet to even acknowledge that I exist. Why should I expect Him to start answering my questions now?

habsheaven
07-16-2012, 03:05 PM
star cards, i know there are, but you would think they would have read the NT and read about jesus and his 40 days in the desert. the devil offers him to rule the earth



didn't see jesus saying, no you can't because I / God rules the earth, but only brings up who should be worshipped.

so if other christians think differently, why???????????


So the NT perpetuates the myth that all civilization and people only existed in a small enough range that they all could be seen from a mountaintop 2000 years ago? Interesting ....

Wickabee
07-16-2012, 03:21 PM
So the NT perpetuates the myth that all civilization and people only existed in a small enough range that they all could be seen from a mountaintop 2000 years ago? Interesting ....

If taken completely literally, yes.

habsheaven
07-16-2012, 03:27 PM
If taken completely literally, yes.

Is there a manual that I have missed? You know, something that tells the layreader what is to be taken literally and what is to be taken figuratively? I think I know the "rule of thumb"; if it makes sense take it literally, if it sounds funny, it's figurative.

Wickabee
07-16-2012, 03:37 PM
Is there a manual that I have missed? You know, something that tells the layreader what is to be taken literally and what is to be taken figuratively? I think I know the "rule of thumb"; if it makes sense take it literally, if it sounds funny, it's figurative.

Well, we're talking about supernatural beings here, so it's entirely possible, in that context, that Satan gave Jesus a vision of every Kingdom of the Earth, which would not pertpetuate anything as you described above.
Just like you'll never find anything wrong with the Bible if you're constantly looking to prove it, you will never find anything right with the Bible if you're constantly trying to disprove it.

shrewsbury
07-16-2012, 03:43 PM
wickabee, great post!

habs, the NT is what you make it. God doesn't need you to think anything, you are given the opportunity, what you do with it, is your own business.

starcards, this is the biggest issue in anything, from any great work, whether buddhist or christian it is all about the interpretation, and the blind will always follow rather than look themselves, it is not because they are literally blind, but blind to understanding things for themselves, which is the root of being a christian.

habsheaven
07-16-2012, 03:49 PM
Well, we're talking about supernatural beings here, so it's entirely possible, in that context, that Satan gave Jesus a vision of every Kingdom of the Earth, which would not pertpetuate anything as you described above.
Just like you'll never find anything wrong with the Bible if you're constantly looking to prove it, you will never find anything right with the Bible if you're constantly trying to disprove it.

If that were the case, there would be no reason to talk about a "high mountaintop". Could it not just be told as it occurred? Why does the writer need to mislead the reader? Also if that were the case, would not Jesus have anything to say later about the Incas, the Inuit, the Polynesians? The devil showed him all these kingdoms and Jesus just dismissed them? Never to speak of them again?

habsheaven
07-16-2012, 03:53 PM
habs, the NT is what you make it. God doesn't need you to think anything, you are given the opportunity, what you do with it, is your own business.

Jay, I do not care what God needs me to think. I am asking why readers of these documents do not seem to care what the documents actually say. I honestly do not understand how someone can place so much trust in a document that is purposely very unclear in how it conveys almost every message.

Wickabee
07-16-2012, 03:54 PM
If that were the case, there would be no reason to talk about a "high mountaintop".
True, but that doesn't mean he didn't take him to a high mountaintop anyway. Or, perhaps the mountaintop was part of the vision/hallucination.


Could it not just be told as it occurred? Why does the writer need to mislead the reader?
Is it really "misleading? If you focus on the semantics surrounding the story, you will never get the point. That's not just for the Bible, that's for everything.


Also if that were the case, would not Jesus have anything to say later about the Incas, the Inuit, the Polynesians? The devil showed him all these kingdoms and Jesus just dismissed them? Never to speak of them again?
I can't speak for Jesus, you'll have to ask him about that yourself.

habsheaven
07-16-2012, 04:02 PM
The next time I see Jesus I will ask him. I won't hold my breathe waiting for a straight answer though.

Wickabee
07-16-2012, 04:56 PM
The next time I see Jesus I will ask him. I won't hold my breathe waiting for a straight answer though.

Well, with that attitude you'll never get one.

shrewsbury
07-16-2012, 06:16 PM
habs, I still have the friends pass!!!!!

you must realize a few things. first a teacher does not teach the same to all students, this is simply because all people do not learn the same way. So there is a mix, how do you know what is what? well most is easy for me, if He brings up a mustard seed I know it is not literal, if He says "you" then it is literal.

I believe this all goes back to free will. if the words of jesus were so clear and exact none of us could argue ,then we would have no choice but to believe, and free will is gone. It is like a fairweather friend, they are ok, but not a true friend. using force to gain love and respect only works on the weak, Jesus wants us all to have faith. you notice the famous Mathew 5:5, the meek shall inherit the earth, so people say you should be meek? how about Mathew 5:9 & 5:10, seems a btter choice than being meek


Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.


when it comes to the NT most are listeners and even when they read they read with an opinion in mind, rather than an open mind. It is much like reaching satori, if you say you have, then it is proof you have not.

habsheaven
07-16-2012, 06:43 PM
I hear what you're saying Jay. Just having a hard time wrapping my head around it. I will give it more thought because I really do want to understand the perspective.

JustAlex
07-16-2012, 07:35 PM
So if all of what you're saying is true, why should anyone pray? <br />
<br />
Like I said, God is NOT allowed to interfere.....when you pray you are asking god to interfere, clearly there is a contradiction in...

JustAlex
07-16-2012, 07:41 PM
Is there a manual that I have missed? You know, something that tells the layreader what is to be taken literally and what is to be taken figuratively? I think I know the "rule of thumb"; if it makes sense take it literally, if it sounds funny, it's figurative.
I love how some Christians twist and play semantics and other word games when it comes to the bible.

Anyone can interpret the bible to say just about anything they want.

By MY interpretation the "god" of Genesis is actually more than one god....he clearly says "Let US make man in OUR image".

This obviously implies more than one, and if people want to say he was talking to Jesus, who is himself, then......arrrgghhh.....it doesn't make sense....NOT ONE BIT!

ensbergcollector
07-16-2012, 07:52 PM
i really don't get why some people can't say "to believe in God I would need proof but I respect that you don't." By the same token, believers should be able to say, "i believe but i understand why you don't"

because 90% of the back and forth on here could be resolved with those 2 statements. instead, we spend our time talking down to anyone who doesn't agree with us.

shrewsbury
07-16-2012, 07:59 PM
I think people may growl a little but I am not offended nor think anyone is talking down to me.

and I like most of the 90% back and forth on here, nothing wrong with people expressing their opinions.

but to each their own

JustAlex
07-16-2012, 08:08 PM
i really don't get why some people can't say "to believe in God I would need proof but I respect that you don't." By the same token, believers should be able to say, "i believe but i understand why you don't"

because 90% of the back and forth on here could be resolved with those 2 statements. instead, we spend our time talking down to anyone who doesn't agree with us.
I'll agree that those two statements are good enough, BUT....

I think a lot of atheists such as myself are concerned that christians are trying to impose their beliefs in government, public schools, and other areas where it doesn't belong.

And that's why we have these discussions.

If religion was 100% kept in church and to private beliefs, I believe we wouldn't argue so much.

Public life should be purely secular and 100% neutral, what you believe in private is all up to you.

Wickabee
07-16-2012, 08:16 PM
I'll agree that those two statements are good enough, BUT....

I think a lot of atheists such as myself are concerned that christians are trying to impose their beliefs in government, public schools, and other areas where it doesn't belong.

And that's why we have these discussions.

If religion was 100% kept in church and to private beliefs, I believe we wouldn't argue so much.

Public life should be purely secular and 100% neutral, what you believe in private is all up to you.

And everyone on Earth should be equal, but it's not ever going to happen.

habsheaven
07-16-2012, 09:54 PM
i really don't get why some people can't say "to believe in God I would need proof but I respect that you don't." By the same token, believers should be able to say, "i believe but i understand why you don't"

because 90% of the back and forth on here could be resolved with those 2 statements. instead, we spend our time talking down to anyone who doesn't agree with us.

The reason why the debate cannot be limited to those two statements is simple. The people debating the issue do not just believe in a God. They also believe in a religion. A religion that is chock full of contradictions and supernatural claims. All of which seem to have no purpose other than to re-inforce the claim and encourage conformity. In trying to understand someone's belief, it is only logical to challenge all the facets of it.

JustAlex
07-16-2012, 11:25 PM
The reason why the debate cannot be limited to those two statements is simple. The people debating the issue do not just believe in a God. They also believe in a religion. A religion that is chock full of contradictions and supernatural claims. All of which seem to have no purpose other than to re-inforce the claim and encourage conformity. In trying to understand someone's belief, it is only logical to challenge all the facets of it.
WOW, it's like you're reading my mind :thumb:

Talking about contradictions, can someone explain why we pray for god to intervene in our lives if we have "free will" and god is not supposed to intervene.

What exactly is the point of prayer then?

shrewsbury
07-17-2012, 09:40 AM
I don't pray for God to intervene in anything I do, but I try to keep Jesus in mind when I am making decisions.


(14) Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will give rise to sin for yourselves; and if you pray, you will be condemned; and if you give alms, you will do harm to your spirits. When you go into any land and walk about in the districts, if they receive you, eat what they will set before you, and heal the sick among them. For what goes into your mouth will not defile you, but that which issues from your mouth - it is that which will defile you."

mrveggieman
07-17-2012, 10:30 AM
WOW, it's like you're reading my mind :thumb:

Talking about contradictions, can someone explain why we pray for god to intervene in our lives if we have "free will" and god is not supposed to intervene.

What exactly is the point of prayer then?


My bishop says that when you pray you are inviting God to get involved with your situation. He dosen't have to if you don't want him to but you are humbling yourself and asking for God's help. Whenever I am going through a storm in my life I feel a sense of comfort knowing that God has my back. But that is what works for me. Whatever the next man or woman does for comfort during a storm in his/her life is entirely up to them.

habsheaven
07-17-2012, 11:18 AM
Do me a favour. Next Sunday ask your bishop for his explanation as to why God doesn't help everyone that prays to him. Ask his opinion of why God would let cancer kill a 42 year old religious man with two young children after he and countless others prayed for a cure.


My bishop says that when you pray you are inviting God to get involved with your situation. He dosen't have to if you don't want him to but you are humbling yourself and asking for God's help. Whenever I am going through a storm in my life I feel a sense of comfort knowing that God has my back. But that is what works for me. Whatever the next man or woman does for comfort during a storm in his/her life is entirely up to them.

shrewsbury
07-17-2012, 11:27 AM
habs, really there is no need to ask, god didn't kill anyone, nature did.

there is nothing wrong with prayer, but you should be in contact with jesus 24/7, so no need to pray. jesus may comfort your death, but he has no need to stop it.

habsheaven
07-17-2012, 11:34 AM
Jay, I agree. Although, I would like to hear a continuation of what veggie's bishop has to say. What happens after the invitation (prayer) is made to God? How do real men of the cloth respond to that question in this day and age? Is it still, "God knows best." or "God works in mysterious ways."? How does a believer, thinking God has his back, react when they see God not having someone else's back?

mrveggieman
07-17-2012, 11:39 AM
Jay, I agree. Although, I would like to hear a continuation of what veggie's bishop has to say. What happens after the invitation (prayer) is made to God? How do real men of the cloth respond to that question in this day and age? Is it still, "God knows best." or "God works in mysterious ways."? How does a believer, thinking God has his back, react when they see God not having someone else's back?

I can't promise that I will be able to speak to my bishop but I will do some research and attempt to get back to you. Also I am curious to see how ensbergcollector would respond to your question which I will admit is a very good question.

Wickabee
07-17-2012, 03:18 PM
Do me a favour. Next Sunday ask your bishop for his explanation as to why God doesn't help everyone that prays to him. Ask his opinion of why God would let cancer kill a 42 year old religious man with two young children after he and countless others prayed for a cure.

Why do you always want someone to speak for God. I hate religion, but even I can differentiate between one his meant to teach about God and one who speaks for God. If the Bishop did answer your question, would you not turn around and ask how can pretend to speak for God? I sure would, because that's not his place. And even clergy don't know everything, and anyone who pretends to isn't worth listening to in the first place.

habsheaven
07-17-2012, 04:31 PM
I was asking for the Bishop's opinion on the subject matter. Is that not what religion is ALL about? If clergymen do not "speak for God" who the heck does? How would you, me or anyone else even know about Him if no one spoke for Him? So to answer your question; NO, I would not ask how he can pretend to speak for God. I asked for his opinion because I wanted HIS opinion. Are we clear now?


Why do you always want someone to speak for God. I hate religion, but even I can differentiate between one his meant to teach about God and one who speaks for God. If the Bishop did answer your question, would you not turn around and ask how can pretend to speak for God? I sure would, because that's not his place. And even clergy don't know everything, and anyone who pretends to isn't worth listening to in the first place.

Wickabee
07-17-2012, 04:43 PM
Ok, before we go further, I like you, you (I think) like me, so we're all friends.


I was asking for the Bishop's opinion on the subject matter. Is that not what religion is ALL about? If clergymen do not "speak for God" who the heck does? How would you, me or anyone else even know about Him if no one spoke for Him? So to answer your question; NO, I would not ask how he can pretend to speak for God. I asked for his opinion because I wanted HIS opinion. Are we clear now?

1 - No one speaks for God, just like no one speaks for you or me.
2 - If a Bishop gave you an answer, would you actually accept it?
3 - Supposedly, it's the Bible that speaks for him. Anything outside of the Bible is merely a human interpretation. With religion, you're listening to someone who has a vested interest (money) other than getting you closer to understanding God, which is one reason I don't trust any religion. The answers you're looking for are in the Bible. But remember, you have to read it with an open mind, not with the attitude that you're reading "fairy tales" or "fables". The only person who can answer that question for you is you, after genuinely reading the Bible with thought and respect. Any other way is pointless, even asking a Bishop, because like you said, you'd simply be getting his opinion and an opinion is pretty much worthless if you're looking for fact and reasoning.

JustAlex
07-17-2012, 06:21 PM
My bishop says that when you pray you are inviting God to get involved with your situation. He dosen't have to if you don't want him to but you are humbling yourself and asking for God's help. Whenever I am going through a storm in my life I feel a sense of comfort knowing that God has my back. But that is what works for me. Whatever the next man or woman does for comfort during a storm in his/her life is entirely up to them.
OK, I can accept that prayer is a form of comfort and if it works for you that's great.

But up until now, it seems like you guys are telling me that God doesn't actually help those who pray (He can't since this would be interference), and I think that's where my biggest problem lies in.

shrewsbury
07-17-2012, 06:28 PM
alex, i am with you on this one

wickabee, i agree, except (of course) the bible is not the only source just the accepted one, but good post.
and not to sound like a suck up, but you have been posting some great stuff lately!! Thanks!

habsheaven
07-17-2012, 08:43 PM
Ok, before we go further, I like you, you (I think) like me, so we're all friends.



1 - No one speaks for God, just like no one speaks for you or me.
2 - If a Bishop gave you an answer, would you actually accept it?
3 - Supposedly, it's the Bible that speaks for him. Anything outside of the Bible is merely a human interpretation. With religion, you're listening to someone who has a vested interest (money) other than getting you closer to understanding God, which is one reason I don't trust any religion. The answers you're looking for are in the Bible. But remember, you have to read it with an open mind, not with the attitude that you're reading "fairy tales" or "fables". The only person who can answer that question for you is you, after genuinely reading the Bible with thought and respect. Any other way is pointless, even asking a Bishop, because like you said, you'd simply be getting his opinion and an opinion is pretty much worthless if you're looking for fact and reasoning.

Yes, no one actually speaks for God but lots of people are wise to what can be found in the Bible so I do like to hear opinions on the Bible whether I agree with them or not. Also, as a bishop he probably deals with situations of this nature a lot more frequently than most of us which would lead me to believe he may have an opinion worthy of hearing. I think that is how one gets a broader perspective and occasionally learns. Would I accept what he says as being "right"? I don't know, it would depend on what he told me.


To close, I will add; :hug: