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View Full Version : New welfare restrictions to target cigarettes, gambling, booze and other "sin" items



mrveggieman
07-19-2012, 10:40 AM
I actually agree with some of this. If you want lung cancer, alcoholism or to be a compulsive gambler get a job and do it on your own dime. If you expect a handout from the gov't do be mad when the gov't tells you what to do with the money that they give you. What are your thoughts?

http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/new-welfare-restrictions-target-1480317.html (http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/new-welfare-restrictions-target-1480317.html)

ensbergcollector
07-19-2012, 11:23 AM
i wouldn't be trying to outlaw them as "sin" items but i would be all for outlawing them as unnecessary items. I think if we are going to have government handouts, it should only be able to be used on necessities.

shrewsbury
07-19-2012, 01:33 PM
they won't e able to stop it, they could barder for these items and if caught with them, they could easily say someone bought them for them.

i think they should have a huge welfare police program, visit their place of residence and bust them that way, and they should give drug tests as well.

they can start right here where i live and i could even point out who to check first. i am tired of people rolling up for free food in cars that are worth 20+ grand smoking cigs, having large screen tv's, and the best internet and cable tv services available, just to name a few.

theonedru
07-19-2012, 01:48 PM
I am all for these restrictions and more. Welfare is for people in need for a short period of time, its not a lifestyle. Anything deemed non essential or a luxury they should not be allowed to purchase. If they do not like it then get off of it.

cardmasters
07-19-2012, 02:29 PM
I belive welfare should be only for essential stuff so I think we should ban cell phones, high speed internet, cable, good cars ect. But I do think we should allowed dial up internet, so if they want a job they can find one. Also they have to submidt receipts for every purchase they made.

Wickabee
07-19-2012, 02:30 PM
I belive welfare should be only for essential stuff so I think we should ban cell phones, high speed internet, cable, good cars ect. But I do think we should allowed dial up internet, so if they want a job they can find one. Also they have to submidt receipts for every purchase they made.

If you're using dial-up to try and find a job, you'll be unemployed forever. Just sayin'

habsheaven
07-19-2012, 02:30 PM
I don't believe this is as big a problem as some make it out to be, but with that said, I certainly don't think these types of restrictions are out of line. I also think that the governments involved could do a lot of good by showing the taxpayers that they are being better stewards of their money, and reduce the resentment directed at many receiving benefits.

AUTaxMan
07-19-2012, 04:19 PM
If you're using dial-up to try and find a job, you'll be unemployed forever. Just sayin'

They can go to the library and use the computer there.

Wickabee
07-19-2012, 04:26 PM
They can go to the library and use the computer there.

That works.

shrewsbury
07-19-2012, 05:05 PM
habs, i can tell you that in my very small town, there is plenty of government housing, I have been in around 80% of these homes. out of the ones i have been in, around 90% are living above their means. meaning they have nice new cars, the best internet connection, all premiums channels with a dvr or two, alcohol, cigarettes, and some smell like dope. they have shoes that cost more than all my shoes combined, they have N64's, nice stereo systems.

don't get me wrong, some don't have much but their place is clean and they work what jobs they can, but most have adult kids living there and no one works.

couple this with government overspending and earmarks and we have about 2/3 of our deficit.(just a wild guess)

habsheaven
07-19-2012, 08:20 PM
I hear ya Jay. I see it around here too. The point I was trying to emphasize is that I think these kinds of restrictions would serve a dual purpose. Wouldn't it be nice to have some confidence in the fact that the money being spent on these programs is going to those that truly need it?

JustAlex
07-19-2012, 09:34 PM
Yes, these restrictions are a good idea.

Regardless, Conservatives WILL STILL be against helping poor people....they want to live in a society where everyone looks out for themselves and the rich get richer while the poor get poorer.

In their minds Government should NOT help ANYONE, if you lose your job.....too bad!

AUTaxMan
07-19-2012, 09:50 PM
Regardless, Conservatives WILL STILL be against helping poor people....they want to live in a society where everyone looks out for themselves and the rich get richer while the poor get poorer.

Where do you get this nonsense? Just because you WANT to believe something does not mean that it is true.

JustAlex
07-19-2012, 10:11 PM
Where do you get this nonsense? Just because you WANT to believe something does not mean that it is true.
Prove me wrong.

I remember all the VITRIOLIC HATE that conservatives had towards any and all entitlement programs from that thread we had here a few months ago.

Republicans have no good ideas, they worship money, capitalism, and greed!

AUTaxMan
07-19-2012, 10:16 PM
Prove me wrong.

I remember all the VITRIOLIC HATE that conservatives had towards any and all entitlement programs from that thread we had here a few months ago.

Republicans have no good ideas, they worship money, capitalism, and greed!

If you want to be proven wrong, do a quick google search for charitable giving statistics between liberals and conservatives. Liberals think the government is a better arbiter of which causes are worthiest. Conservatives merely want to be free to help people in the way they choose.

Please stop making dumb generalizations like this: "Republicans have no good ideas, they worship money, capitalism, and greed!" It adds nothing to the conversation.

ensbergcollector
07-19-2012, 10:35 PM
Yes, these restrictions are a good idea.

Regardless, Conservatives WILL STILL be against helping poor people....they want to live in a society where everyone looks out for themselves and the rich get richer while the poor get poorer.

In their minds Government should NOT help ANYONE, if you lose your job.....too bad!

categorically false...there is a difference in being against abusing welfare and not wanting anyone helped ever

JustAlex
07-19-2012, 10:37 PM
Yeah, republicans want to be "free" to help people the way they choose.....hilarious!

But when we say: hey, let's all pitch in and equally help everyone together (in respects to health care).....republicans say: SOCIALISM, NAZIS, COMMUNISTS, and other stupid nonsense.

When we say: hey, if someone loses their job they should be helped for a bit until they rebound back.....Republicans say: they're DEADBEATS, they're LAZY!


Republicans want to cut social security, medicaid, medicare, and many other government help......WHY?!?!?!?


Why does it bother them SO MUCH that people use tax money to help fellow human beings.....OK, cut out the abusers (I'm perfectly in agreement with the article of this thread), cut out the corruption.

Will you conservatives STILL be against helping the poor by government help?

My prediction.....YES!

shrewsbury
07-19-2012, 10:43 PM
alex,


When we say: hey, if someone loses their job they should be helped for a bit until they rebound back.....Republicans say: they're DEADBEATS, they're LAZY!

maybe after they extend their UEB for over a year. my friend did this and i told him he needs to get a job, he went and got his CDL and now drives truck and makes a decent living again. i have no issue with helping those that need to be helped, some will be long term, but most should be short term. but when millions are spent on gambling alone by welfare recipients, there is an issue, no two ways about it.

AUTaxMan
07-19-2012, 10:44 PM
Yeah, republicans want to be "free" to help people the way they choose.....hilarious!

But when we say: hey, let's all pitch in and equally help everyone together (in respects to health care).....republicans say: SOCIALISM, NAZIS, COMMUNISTS, and other stupid nonsense.

When we say: hey, if someone loses their job they should be helped for a bit until they rebound back.....Republicans say: they're DEADBEATS, they're LAZY!


Republicans want to cut social security, medicaid, medicare, and many other government help......WHY?!?!?!?

Government is definitionally inefficient. Fiscal conservatives want to help people, but they also realize the practical side of the issues as well, i.e., costs. Obamacare is a debacle. That doesn't mean that we conservatives don't want a safety-net healthcare system and don't think the system needs reform to lower costs, but Obamacare is the wrong way to fix the problem. It will lead to a single payer system, and that means (as demonstrated around the world) longer wait times to see a doctor and lower quality of care. Social security and all of the entitlement programs need reform. However, any time a republican mentions reform, dems respond like you have, demagoguing and assuming that republicans don't care about people. We have a financial crisis in this country, and entitlement reform is desperately needed if we are going to dig out of this hole. Acknowledging that fact doesn't mean that I don't care about the poor.

shrewsbury
07-19-2012, 10:53 PM
Doctors will need to get approval, but if the agency in charge disagrees with them, they can still do what they deem to be right, the catch is, they will not e paid for it. so our health is literally...

JustAlex
07-19-2012, 10:53 PM
I'm NOT a democrat TaxMan....

I'm an Independent Liberal who cares more about helping others than making a gazillion dollars...

I'm a person who would GLADLY pay more taxes if it meant better schools, better infrastructure, more help to the needy, and NO MORE FREAKING WARS!!!

I definitely consider myself a humanitarian, and I know that we only have ONE life in this planet and there is too much suffering in the "most powerful" nation while the RICH get RICHER and poor get poorer!

And if you can't see the incredible Wealth and social gap in this country, then surely you are blind!

AUTaxMan
07-19-2012, 11:11 PM
I'm NOT a democrat TaxMan....

I'm an Independent Liberal who cares more about helping others than making a gazillion dollars...

I'm a person who would GLADLY pay more taxes if it meant better schools, better infrastructure, more help to the needy, and NO MORE FREAKING WARS!!!

I definitely consider myself a humanitarian, and I know that we only have ONE life in this planet and there is too much suffering in the "most powerful" nation while the RICH get RICHER and poor get poorer!

And if you can't see the incredible Wealth and social gap in this country, then surely you are blind!

I never said you were a dem. I said you were reacting like one.

It's easy to be a humanitarian with other people's money. If you personally want better schools, find a way to use your money and time to improve them. Don't hold a gun to my head and force me to do so if I feel like my money could be better spent elsewhere.

I also never said there wasn't a wealth and social gap, but giving money to the government is not how you close that gap.

Wickabee
07-19-2012, 11:27 PM
I never said you were a dem. I said you were reacting like one.

It's easy to be a humanitarian with other people's money. If you personally want better schools, find a way to use your money and time to improve them. Don't hold a gun to my head and force me to do so if I feel like my money could be better spent elsewhere.

I also never said there wasn't a wealth and social gap, but giving money to the government is not how you close that gap.

How does one close that gap? To me it seems that better schools would eventually lead to less kids mugging people.

JustAlex
07-19-2012, 11:30 PM
I never said you were a dem. I said you were reacting like one.

It's easy to be a humanitarian with other people's money. If you personally want better schools, find a way to use your money and time to improve them. Don't hold a gun to my head and force me to do so if I feel like my money could be better spent elsewhere.

I also never said there wasn't a wealth and social gap, but giving money to the government is not how you close that gap.
No one would be holding a gun to your head.

You ALREADY pay taxes, why not utilize them in an efficient way?

CUT the military budget by at least 50% maybe more!

Like I said before, make sure the abusers and corruptness of entitlement programs are weeded out...

Whether you like it or not, ONE DAY you will have to go to the hospital or see a doctor, why not make sure that EVERY SINGLE citizen is protected by having universal health care.

Canada, Japan, most of Europe ALL have universal health care and they ALL have a BETTER system then ours, their citizens live longer and are HAPPIER than Americans, it's really not surprising at all.


TAX THE RICH!

The U.S has one of the LOWEST tax rates in the world, and the the fact that conservatives keep saying that this will only create more harm than good is a complete and utter LIE!

"Trickle down economics" is a JOKE, and yet another system of control!

AUTaxMan
07-19-2012, 11:31 PM
How does one close that gap? To me it seems that better schools would eventually lead to less kids mugging people.

Clearly, money isn't the answer. Schools have gotten no better since the department of education was created by jimmy carter, and the amount of money we spend on education per student increases every year. You want to solve education, get parents to care about their children's education. That is the ONLY way.

AUTaxMan
07-19-2012, 11:51 PM
No one would be holding a gun to your head.

You ALREADY pay taxes, why not utilize them in an efficient way?

CUT the military budget by at least 50% maybe more!

Like I said before, make sure the abusers and corruptness of entitlement programs are weeded out...

Whether you like it or not, ONE DAY you will have to go to the hospital or see a doctor, why not make sure that EVERY SINGLE citizen is protected by having universal health care.

Canada, Japan, most of Europe ALL have universal health care and they ALL have a BETTER system then ours, their citizens live longer and are HAPPIER than Americans, it's really not surprising at all.


TAX THE RICH!

The U.S has one of the LOWEST tax rates in the world, and the the fact that conservatives keep saying that this will only create more harm than good is a complete and utter LIE!

"Trickle down economics" is a JOKE, and yet another system of control!

You seem to me to be very naive and uninformed. You need to stop talking in generalizations and get specific if you want to have a serious conversation.

1. Please give me a single example of government efficiency, particularly on a large scale.

2. Our debt problems cannot be solved by raising taxes or cutting spending. We need to increase the tax base. More taxpayers = more revenue. This is historically proven. You can find the studies relatively easily online.

3. Even with our problems in healthcare, we still have the best system in the world. Read about the waits and denials for special procedures in nations with socialized medicine.

4. Define the "rich." Whoever they are already pay the overwhelming majority of income taxes into government coffers. We need to tax them even more?

5. Please educate me more with your vast wisdom of taxation and economics. I'm always interested in learning something new.

Wickabee
07-20-2012, 12:01 AM
Clearly, money isn't the answer. Schools have gotten no better since the department of education was created by jimmy carter, and the amount of money we spend on education per student increases every year. You want to solve education, get parents to care about their children's education. That is the ONLY way.

How does a government get the parents to care?

AUTaxMan
07-20-2012, 12:15 AM
How does a government get the parents to care?

That's just it. Government cannot solve that problem. The sooner we realize that as a nation, the sooner we'll start to fix it.

JustAlex
07-20-2012, 12:21 AM
You seem to me to be very naive and uninformed. You need to stop talking in generalizations and get specific if you want to have a serious conversation.

1. Please give me a single example of government efficiency, particularly on a large scale.

OK, maybe there isn't a good example of government efficiency on a large scale, obviously we have to fix government first...

2. Our debt problems cannot be solved by raising taxes or cutting spending. We need to increase the tax base. More taxpayers = more revenue. This is historically proven. You can find the studies relatively easily online.

Fine, I'll look it up and get myself more informed on this particular issue...

3. Even with our problems in healthcare, we still have the best system in the world. Read about the waits and denials for special procedures in nations with socialized medicine.

NOPE, Sorry, that's just wrong.....the WHO (world health organization) ranks us in #37, Cuba is at #39.....the U.S is a JOKE when it comes to health care and I would MUCH rather get socialized medicine than our terrible system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_system s


4. Define the "rich." Whoever they are already pay the overwhelming majority of income taxes into government coffers. We need to tax them even more?

The U.S has one of the LOWEST tax rates in the world, including for the rich, they have so many loop holes, they hide their money in off shore accounts *COUGH MITT-the-dog-abuser-ROMNEY COUGH*.....enough nonsense.....TAX THEM MORE!

5. Please educate me more with your vast wisdom of taxation and economics. I'm always interested in learning something new.

Responses in bold.

Wickabee
07-20-2012, 12:23 AM
That's just it. Government cannot solve that problem. The sooner we realize that as a nation, the sooner we'll start to fix it.

So are you then saying that, ideally, government would have nothing to do with education?

AUTaxMan
07-20-2012, 01:53 AM
So are you then saying that, ideally, government would have nothing to do with education?

Of course not. But we have larger societal problems that government cannot solve, like the deterioration of the nuclear family.

theonedru
07-20-2012, 03:05 AM
3. Even with our problems in healthcare, we still have the best system in the world. Read about the waits and denials for special procedures in nations with socialized medicine.

Actually America does not have the best healthcare in the world, sadly it is not even ranked top 10.....

Wickabee
07-20-2012, 07:29 AM
Of course not. But we have larger societal problems that government cannot solve, like the deterioration of the nuclear family.

Yes, the government cannot solve that. That's not really within their jurisdiction. So what should the government do?

angel0430
07-20-2012, 08:17 AM
They need to do something with this programs since a lot of people are taking advantage of them. Drug test is the way to start. we are talkking about a lot of money in assistance. Also, I think that it should be restricted to a specific amount of time, like 6-12 months until you can find a job, unless you are disable or something like that.

mrveggieman
07-20-2012, 08:26 AM
It seems like conservatives only want the gov't around when it benefits them. For example if someone robs their business the first thing they do is call the police (an agency of the gov't) for help. Or if someone some checks them for their anti-gay view points they want to scream 1st amendment. However if someone suggests that the gov't shold invest more in health care or education to make society better for all they scream bloody murder and they will never stand for any tax increases. They only time that are happy with tax increases is for military spending. Also speaking of the first amendment if someone wants to build a mosque to exercise their first amendment right to peacefully learn about and practice islam the conservatives chose to ignore the first amendment. You can't have it both ways conservatives.

shrewsbury
07-20-2012, 08:41 AM
I don't think anyone has an issue with improving the health care or education but throwing money at the government is not the answer.

we may not be ranked in the top 10, but where does everyone go when they need serious health care?
when is the last time you heard of an american hospital physically collapsing?
where do people come from all over the world to study medicine?
who is the leader in finding cures and new procedures?

and veggie, cops carry guns, so us crazy conservatives would have to love them, and my dead stepfather was a cop, I liked him.
I also know every police officer in town and have actually assisted them in a few searches over the years.

mrveggieman
07-20-2012, 08:50 AM
I am a strong believer in the second amendment and do believe that everyone should have the right to defend himself/herself and their family. Therefore I have no problem whatsoever with the right to bear arms. Hell we need to bear arms to protect ourselves from some of these anti-oboma, anti-minority, anti-semite, anti muslim, anti-homesexual conservative loons.
I don't think anyone has an issue with improving the health care or education but throwing money at the government is not the answer.

we may not be ranked in the top 10, but where does everyone go when they need serious health care?
when is the last time you heard of an american hospital physically collapsing?
where do people come from all over the world to study medicine?
who is the leader in finding cures and new procedures?

and veggie, cops carry guns, so us crazy conservatives would have to love them, and my dead stepfather was a cop, I liked him.
I also know every police officer in town and have actually assisted them in a few searches over the years.

habsheaven
07-20-2012, 09:27 AM
Jay, I don't think anyone is arguing the fact that American health care is great for those that can afford it. But that is where the problem lies. There are too many people who cannot afford it. The WHO numbers do not lie. It comes down to a matter of priorities, do you want the BEST health care for yourself, or BETTER health care for your entire country?


I don't think anyone has an issue with improving the health care or education but throwing money at the government is not the answer.

we may not be ranked in the top 10, but where does everyone go when they need serious health care?
when is the last time you heard of an american hospital physically collapsing?
where do people come from all over the world to study medicine?
who is the leader in finding cures and new procedures?

and veggie, cops carry guns, so us crazy conservatives would have to love them, and my dead stepfather was a cop, I liked him.
I also know every police officer in town and have actually assisted them in a few searches over the years.

ensbergcollector
07-20-2012, 09:46 AM
I am a strong believer in the second amendment and do believe that everyone should have the right to defend himself/herself and their family. Therefore I have no problem whatsoever with the right to bear arms. Hell we need to bear arms to protect ourselves from some of these anti-oboma, anti-minority, anti-semite, anti muslim, anti-homesexual conservative loons.

seriously man? you live in a world where you think it is ok to take 1% if a population and pretend that it applies to everyone and then treat anyone who doesn't agree with you as if they are the radical 1%.

mrveggieman
07-20-2012, 09:52 AM
When dealing with conservatives the moderate ones ARE the minority.


seriously man? you live in a world where you think it is ok to take 1% if a population and pretend that it applies to everyone and then treat anyone who doesn't agree with you as if they are the radical 1%.

AUTaxMan
07-20-2012, 10:45 AM
It seems like conservatives only want the gov't around when it benefits them. For example if someone robs their business the first thing they do is call the police (an agency of the gov't for help). Or if someone some checks them for their anti-gay view points they want to scream 1st amendment. However if someone suggests that the gov't shold invest more in health care or education to make society better for all they scream bloody murder and they will never stand for any tax increases. They only time that are happy with tax increases is for military spending. Also speaking of the first amendment if someone wants to build a mosque to exercise their first amendment right to peacefully learn about and practice islam the conservatives chose to ignore the first amendment. You can't have it both ways conservatives.

All of these straw man arguments are without merit.

mrveggieman
07-20-2012, 12:48 PM
All of these straw man arguments are without merit.

Not true? Prove me wrong.

AUTaxMan
07-20-2012, 01:04 PM
Not true? Prove me wrong.

"If someone robs their business the first thing they do is call the police (an agency of the gov't for help)."

"If someone some checks them for their anti-gay view points they want to scream 1st amendment."

"If someone suggests that the gov't shold invest more in health care or education to make society better for all they scream bloody murder and they will never stand for any tax increases."

"They only time that are happy with tax increases is for military spending."

"Also speaking of the first amendment if someone wants to build a mosque to exercise their first amendment right to peacefully learn about and practice islam the conservatives chose to ignore the first amendment."


How do I prove statements like these wrong? Am I supposed to find specific examples of all of your hypotheticals and provide empirical evidence that they are factually inaccurate? These are all FACTLESS generalizations. How about you begin your argument with asserting a fact instead of making a blanket, baseless statement? You haven't presented any facts to rebut.

mrveggieman
07-20-2012, 01:20 PM
Never mind taxman. You have just proved my point.

"If someone robs their business the first thing they do is call the police (an agency of the gov't for help)."

"If someone some checks them for their anti-gay view points they want to scream 1st amendment."

"If someone suggests that the gov't shold invest more in health care or education to make society better for all they scream bloody murder and they will never stand for any tax increases."

"They only time that are happy with tax increases is for military spending."

"Also speaking of the first amendment if someone wants to build a mosque to exercise their first amendment right to peacefully learn about and practice islam the conservatives chose to ignore the first amendment."


How do I prove statements like these wrong? Am I supposed to find specific examples of all of your hypotheticals and provide empirical evidence that they are factually inaccurate? These are all FACTLESS generalizations. How about you begin your argument with asserting a fact instead of making a blanket, baseless statement? You haven't presented any facts to rebut.

shrewsbury
07-20-2012, 06:54 PM
I am a strong believer in the second amendment and do believe that everyone should have the right to defend himself/herself and their family. Therefore I have no problem whatsoever with the right to bear arms. Hell we need to bear arms to protect ourselves from some of these anti-oboma, anti-minority, anti-semite, anti muslim, anti-homesexual conservative loons.

I agree and don't forget the muslim extremists, the black panthers, nation of islam, and anti christian loons.