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View Full Version : In your opinion, what constitutes a "fair share"?



ensbergcollector
07-20-2012, 03:16 AM
hey guys,

i hear a lot of people of both sides of the aisle talking about how the rich need to either "pay their fair share" or that the rich are already paying their fair share. Just curious, for people of both sides, what to you is a "fair share"?

JustAlex
07-20-2012, 05:51 AM
The thing is that the rich get away with so many loopholes and various means to HIDE their money in off shore accounts.....MITT ROMNEY!!!

They find so many ways in order NOT to pay.

Remember when Buffet said that his secretary was paying a bigger percentage than him?

Do you think that's fair???


It's so simple for me, TAX THE RICH!!!

The U.S has one of the LOWEST tax rates in the world:

http://thinkorthwim.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/personal-taxes.png


Furthermore, U.S Citizens are sick and TIRED of this nonsense!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RR4sDIi2_P8/Tp-Rq9_bsFI/AAAAAAAAN-8/AWWFALh1glc/s1600/cnnpollsjobs_october_tall.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-VvlEXnKzPDw/Tp-RuD6QrVI/AAAAAAAAN_E/rQRhghZmjks/s1600/nationaljournal.com.jpg


FOR THE LOVE OF GOD.....TAX THE RICH!!!!



Hey republicans, you want to CUT SPENDING.....GO RIGHT AHEAD....but look at this pie chart and tell me what we should cut????

http://img.scoop.it/1L7VB30xvNY787uRW3bC_jl72eJkfbmt4t8yenImKBVaiQDB_R d1H6kmuBWtceBJ




Bottom line.....CUT the military Budget, and tax the rich!

habsheaven
07-20-2012, 07:59 AM
I think a "fair share" begins taxing somewhere above the poverty line and increases in percentage as your income increases. And that means ALL income, not just income earned from actually working. I would even be in favour of taxing some forms of investment income at an even higher rate.


Edit: Alex's last graph is indicitive of the real problem.

shrewsbury
07-20-2012, 08:48 AM
alex, buffet is behind on his taxes, so to me, his opinion means nothing, if he ain't paying his taxes, then he must be paying less that his secretary. cut the military? where are all these great people going to work? do you have jobs for them? I know everyone else who is unemployed is having issues now, so we should add thousands upon thousand to that number?

fair share would be everyone is working and all are paying taxes, less money to those who don't need it.
second cut government spending, really a bridge to nowhere?

and just for the record, romney knows more about creating jobs and business than Obama and his whole gang (but that still doesn't mean I like him)

and if I was rich, i would be finding ways of getting around all the taxes myself. not only do my wife and I pay taxes from our paychecks, pay taxes on all we buy, but at the end of the year they want another 4-5k, I do not see that as my fair share, it is way over my fair share.

mrveggieman
07-20-2012, 08:53 AM
Both political parties are full of it. Until some type of fair tax system is implemented both parties will continue to point the finger at each other and we will continue to get no where fast.

ensbergcollector
07-20-2012, 09:16 AM
Alex, as usual you have posted a lot of "facts" but failed to answer the question. Like a lot of people in this country you have taken the easy route of "tax the rich." So very pointed question, what, to you, defines rich and what percentage of the overall tax bill should they be paying?

AUTaxMan
07-20-2012, 10:53 AM
Alex, nobody has a duty to pay any more tax than they owe. If legal means are used to reduce one's tax liability, there is nothing wrong with that.

As for your first graph, you cannot merely look at individual rates (which that graph does not show) and reach a conclusion that we have "one of the lowest tax rates in the world." You need to look at the entire tax system to draw a conclusion like that.

How do you measure a millionaire?

Where is entitlement spending in your final graph?

*censored*
07-20-2012, 11:59 AM
Flat tax on all, with no loopholes. It's the only way.

shrewsbury
07-20-2012, 02:41 PM
I kind of like the flat tax, but a few of the ideas that go along with it I have a hard time thinking they would work.

11chaos
07-20-2012, 02:57 PM
Your right JustAlex, let's cut the military and invite everyone in for hugs because no one would ever, pinkie swear, do anything to harm us.

theonedru
07-20-2012, 03:16 PM
Your right JustAlex, let's cut the military and invite everyone in for hugs because no one would ever, pinkie swear, do anything to harm us.

Actually i agree military spending has to be cut, at least 50%. And it doesn't mean mass layoff's just eliminate all non essential spending and make the military accountable for every penny ( as well as every other government agency). As well we could stop spending so much on NASA. We do not need to be throwing so much $ away on space exploration when we cannot manage what he have here on earth.

AUTaxMan
07-20-2012, 03:38 PM
http://www.cnbc.com/id/48257611

The One Percent paid an average effective tax rate of 28.9 percent on their income — far more than any other group, and more than twice the average effective rate of the middle class, who paid 11 percent on average.

So the rich lost more income and paid more of their money in taxes than the rest of the population.

This is not an argument against taxing the wealthy. And the incomes and tax rates of the wealthy may have jumped back since 2009, with the rebound in financial markets.

But when politicians and pundits talk about the rich just getting richer and paying less taxes, they need to pay closer attention to the actual numbers.

INTIMADATOR2007
07-20-2012, 06:21 PM
Most of the "rich" would not mind paying more in taxes , but when they see there money going to so many wasteful programs why should they more ?

My take is a Fair Tax so everyone pays something .

shrewsbury
07-20-2012, 06:47 PM
The issue with a fair tax or any taxes is the 27+million people receiving benefits are getting part of the taxes everyone pays. And as far as cutting military or nasa, the military has 1.7 million us citizens, and 18,000 for nasa.

The top priority should be cutting taxes for the middle class and business' that hire and retain 5% more employees. Restrictions and requirements for welfare increased and improved, creating more jobs and less people who need help. reforming healthcare costs through the free market and enforcing clauses for major health issues, to help relieve costs to those individuals. increase local agencies such as WIC (women infant and children) who provide health care and groceries to families in need. increase programs to help pay for education and training and increase our military to 2-3 million, creating many jobs and training. straightening out school unions and districts making the focus our children and our future. enforcing equality and standing up to hate groups. making our prison a prison system that no one wants to be a part of, and making the death penalty more strict but no way to repeal. training our police and policing our police better, and increasing our police force so we can help fight gangs and drugs more easily.

mrveggieman
07-20-2012, 07:27 PM
The issue with a fair tax or any taxes is the 27+million people receiving benefits are getting part of the taxes everyone pays. And as far as cutting military or nasa, the military has 1.7 million us citizens, and 18,000 for nasa.

The top priority should be cutting taxes for the middle class and business' that hire and retain 5% more employees. Restrictions and requirements for welfare increased and improved, creating more jobs and less people who need help. reforming healthcare costs through the free market and enforcing clauses for major health issues, to help relieve costs to those individuals. increase local agencies such as WIC (women infant and children) who provide health care and groceries to families in need. increase programs to help pay for education and training and increase our military to 2-3 million, creating many jobs and training. straightening out school unions and districts making the focus our children and our future. enforcing equality and standing up to hate groups. making our prison a prison system that no one wants to be a part of, and making the death penalty more strict but no way to repeal. training our police and policing our police better, and increasing our police force so we can help fight gangs and drugs more easily.


Some of your ideas are actually on point. :thumb:

JustAlex
07-20-2012, 07:35 PM
Alex, as usual you have posted a lot of "facts" but failed to answer the question. Like a lot of people in this country you have taken the easy route of "tax the rich." So very pointed question, what, to you, defines rich and what percentage of the overall tax bill should they be paying?
OK, fair enough, I'll answer your question directly.

I support having a NEW tax bracket of $1 million and higher......taxed between 38% - 40%

http://www.toledoblade.com/image/2012/02/14/800x_b1_cCM_z/tax-brackets-1.jpg


^THIS IS SIMPLY UNFAIR!

ensbergcollector
07-20-2012, 08:13 PM
thank you for clarifying your stance. what about the numbers listed do you see as bold print unfair? I very easily fall into the 15% bracket so I am far from upper class but I think a lot of people just throw out "tax the rich" "they can afford it" without actually thinking (not referring to you specifically). Trouble is, I think a lot of those people would have no problem taxing the top people 50% since they "can afford it."

habsheaven
07-20-2012, 08:18 PM
I wish I only had to pay 28%, lol.

JustAlex
07-20-2012, 08:29 PM
thank you for clarifying your stance. what about the numbers listed do you see as bold print unfair? I very easily fall into the 15% bracket so I am far from upper class but I think a lot of people just throw out "tax the rich" "they can afford it" without actually thinking (not referring to you specifically). Trouble is, I think a lot of those people would have no problem taxing the top people 50% since they "can afford it."

Do you think it's FAIR that a middle class family that filled jointly only makes $70K per year and pays 25%...

Meanwhile a corporate millionaire that made $10 Million on wall street only pays 35%???

Oh and he's hiding his money in off shore accounts and probably using LOOPHOLES to not pay his fair share.


NO, this is a travesty and rightly so people are FED UP, we need to decrease the middle class tax rates and tax the richest Americans more!

BTW, I might even be in favor of ANOTHER tax bracket.

42-45% for Americans making $10 Million +

JustAlex
07-20-2012, 08:36 PM
I wish I only had to pay 28%, lol.
I'm sorry for being an ignorant American, but can I ask you how do income taxes work in Canada?

habsheaven
07-20-2012, 08:38 PM
Actually Alex, if you can find a way to eliminate all the loopholes I think the actual rates are more than fair for the little guy. I mean if you look at it the other way. That middle class family pays $17,500, whereas the millionaire pays $3.5 million to the government coffers. Just saying.



Do you think it's FAIR that a middle class family that filled jointly only makes $70K per year and pays 25%...

Meanwhile a corporate millionaire that made $10 Million on wall street only pays 35%???

Oh and he's hiding his money in off shore accounts and probably using LOOPHOLES to not pay his fair share.


NO, this is a travesty and rightly so people are FED UP, we need to decrease the middle class tax rates and tax the richest Americans more!

BTW, I might even be in favor of ANOTHER tax bracket.

42-45% for Americans making $10 Million +

JustAlex
07-20-2012, 08:39 PM
Actually Alex, if you can find a way to eliminate all the loopholes I think the actual rates are more than fair for the little guy. I mean if you look at it the other way. That middle class family pays $17,500, whereas the millionaire pays $3.5 million to the government coffers. Just saying.

OK, sure...eliminate the loopholes (ALL OF THEM) and maybe we can come to a suitable agreement to keep taxes where they are now.

drtom2005
07-20-2012, 08:43 PM
During Einshower's administration(when the highway system was built), the very top people got taxed at 95%. I think a 50% tax bracket for anyone making over a 1 million is fair. 55% at 10 million and going up 5% for each power increase. 60% at 100 million. 65% at 1 billion.
I do favor only actually income though. Once you take it out, it gets taxed. Once a stock or investment is sold . Otherwise the wealth is an illusion.

I also favor not taxing if it given to charity or starting a business/hiring new employees. Example if you owe a million, give a million to charity or hire new employees for 1 million dollars.

I would tax stocks and commidities at the time of sale. It would stop all of the day trading and manipulation done by the big banks/corporations. People would have to think before selling.

In my fantasy world, only the seller pays the taxes. It would encourage ownership, reinvestment, and growth.

Dreaming is nice, isn't it?

habsheaven
07-20-2012, 09:01 PM
It's complicated just like it is in the States. Our federal taxes have the following rates:

$0 - $41,544 = 15%
$41,544 - $83,088 = 22%
$83,088 - $128,800 = 26%
$128,800 and over = $29%

Each province collects a provincial tax, in my province Nova Scotia the rates are as follows:

$0 - $29,590 = 8.79%
$29,590 - 59,180 = 14.95%
$59,180 - $93,000 = 16.67%
$93,000 - $150,000 = 17.50%
$150,000 and above = 21%

We do have some non-refundable tax credits that offset these rates slightly.



I'm sorry for being an ignorant American, but can I ask you how do income taxes work in Canada?

T-206
07-20-2012, 09:24 PM
Fair share go with a fair tax. That way everyone pays the same amount based on what they earn and a 2% federal sales tax so anything you buy even the illegals will be paying into a system since they are the ones who sponge off us tax payers the most. and lets go with 10% FIC if 10% is good enough for God the 10% should be more than plenty for our Government. So if you only make 1.00 the whole year .10 cents of that is Federal Income tax and 2 % will be sales tax no matter how much you make.

You say the Middle class will pay more. I say NO! I dont see middle or poor class paying 250,000 for a car and yes 2% of that car will be added for sales tax. The only thing that should not be taxed is Food and Neccassities of life ie toilet paper, laundry detergent ect.

The system we have now stinks and they way Obama wants to go with it is wrong. If you think the rich are going to pay more in taxes they wont hurt they will just lay off employees they have so they will make the same amount of money they allways have and put more work on the workers that stay. The workers that stay will be affraid of leaving becuase there wont be that many jobs to have.

Next downsize the federal Government like Senators, and congress people, their secrataries, and their secrataties, and again their secrataries secrataries ad all the other people. We voted them in to do a job and represent us not to represent themselves which they have been doing for the past 20 years. We the people need to start putting fire under the feet who we put in office and not sit back on the couch and do nothing but complain. The last Senator I know of who voted against her own stance was Barbra Jordon on the gun control law that Clinton wanted. She knew if she voted for such a thing she would have been voted out of office.

Then ballance the budget if you dont have it you cant spend it!! I have to live on a budget so the Government should do they same but they act like a bunch of drunken sailors who been out on the seas for 6 months ( sorry for the sailors here but you guys know what I meant) and blowing the money they got. Next cut the WIC and foodstamp program by 1/4 and if they need all the money they must be subjected to drug screening and if they fail they are cut off the program for the rest of their lives. The 1/4 that was cut is to pay for the drug screening.

There are ways for a fair tax but the government wants to control our lives than me and you controlling our own lives. Its my life and I will do what I dang well please within the law and the 10 comandments.


Sorry for the rant got carried away again

JustAlex
07-20-2012, 09:36 PM
It's complicated just like it is in the States. Our federal taxes have the following rates:

$0 - $41,544 = 15%
$41,544 - $83,088 = 22%
$83,088 - $128,800 = 26%
$128,800 and over = $29%

Each province collects a provincial tax, in my province Nova Scotia the rates are as follows:

$0 - $29,590 = 8.79%
$29,590 - 59,180 = 14.95%
$59,180 - $93,000 = 16.67%
$93,000 - $150,000 = 17.50%
$150,000 and above = 21%

We do have some non-refundable tax credits that offset these rates slightly.
So you pay two taxes, correct?

If so, does that amount to higher or lower taxes than the ones in the U.S?

Of course, I ask this in correlation to our tax brackets.

*censored*
07-20-2012, 09:45 PM
It's complicated just like it is in the States. Our federal taxes have the following rates:

$0 - $41,544 = 15%
$41,544 - $83,088 = 22%
$83,088 - $128,800 = 26%
$128,800 and over = $29%

Each province collects a provincial tax, in my province Nova Scotia the rates are as follows:

$0 - $29,590 = 8.79%
$29,590 - 59,180 = 14.95%
$59,180 - $93,000 = 16.67%
$93,000 - $150,000 = 17.50%
$150,000 and above = 21%

We do have some non-refundable tax credits that offset these rates slightly.

Don't forget the GST either.

tutall
07-20-2012, 10:19 PM
Do you think it's FAIR that a middle class family that filled jointly only makes $70K per year and pays 25%...

Meanwhile a corporate millionaire that made $10 Million on wall street only pays 35%???

Oh and he's hiding his money in off shore accounts and probably using LOOPHOLES to not pay his fair share.


NO, this is a travesty and rightly so people are FED UP, we need to decrease the middle class tax rates and tax the richest Americans more!

BTW, I might even be in favor of ANOTHER tax bracket.

42-45% for Americans making $10 Million +

You realize how write offs work right? The average american that makes 70K pays no where near 25 percent real income tax.... I would guess they have a ton of write offs and make an actual tax base of around 10-12 percent... As a middle class American I can write things off that millionaires cant write off.... Does that make it unfair to them? I think the biggest problem is the sense of entitlements some people in this country have... It amazes me how many times a day I print off statements for people on welfare and food stamps that are perfectly capable of working just too lazy to go pay the bills.

Why dont you go to Wall Street and make 10 million next year?

JustAlex
07-20-2012, 10:28 PM
You realize how write offs work right? The average american that makes 70K pays no where near 25 percent real income tax.... I would guess they have a ton of write offs and make an actual tax base of around 10-12 percent... As a middle class American I can write things off that millionaires cant write off.... Does that make it unfair to them? I think the biggest problem is the sense of entitlements some people in this country have... It amazes me how many times a day I print off statements for people on welfare and food stamps that are perfectly capable of working just too lazy to go pay the bills.
Haha, here we go with the entitlements again...

LOL, people are "too lazy" to work....or maybe some of them just haven't found work in this lousy economy, I guess we should just let them and their families die off, right?

But let's continue giving RICH people tax breaks, yeah?

tutall
07-20-2012, 10:40 PM
Haha, here we go with the entitlements again...

LOL, people are "too lazy" to work....or maybe some of them just haven't found work in this lousy economy, I guess we should just let them and their families die off, right?

But let's continue giving RICH people tax breaks, yeah?

are you saying there are not people out there too lazy to work? Do you think there is no or little fraud in the welfare system? I know people who get more in government checks monthly than I make working 55-60 hours per week. They shouldnt die off but they shouldnt be able to buy big screen tvs and the newest cell phone every 9 months either...

AUTaxMan
07-20-2012, 11:43 PM
It's complicated just like it is in the States. Our federal taxes have the following rates:

$0 - $41,544 = 15%
$41,544 - $83,088 = 22%
$83,088 - $128,800 = 26%
$128,800 and over = $29%

Each province collects a provincial tax, in my province Nova Scotia the rates are as follows:

$0 - $29,590 = 8.79%
$29,590 - 59,180 = 14.95%
$59,180 - $93,000 = 16.67%
$93,000 - $150,000 = 17.50%
$150,000 and above = 21%

We do have some non-refundable tax credits that offset these rates slightly.

We have state income taxes as well, but they are nowhere near your provincial rates. My rate in Alabama is 4%. The highest state rates are in the 15% range.

AUTaxMan
07-20-2012, 11:44 PM
Don't forget the GST either.

I think you mean the AMT. The GST is related to the gift tax, not to income.

AUTaxMan
07-20-2012, 11:50 PM
Haha, here we go with the entitlements again...

LOL, people are "too lazy" to work....or maybe some of them just haven't found work in this lousy economy, I guess we should just let them and their families die off, right?

But let's continue giving RICH people tax breaks, yeah?

What Code section are the "rich people tax breaks" in?

AUTaxMan
07-21-2012, 01:37 AM
I have no clue what asking this accomplishes except to end up on the negative end of some remark. Facts are fact the military misuses millions if not billions a year.

No different than any other form of government spending. Always wasteful and inefficient, regardless of what department is spending the money.

theonedru
07-21-2012, 01:42 AM
No different than any other form of government spending. Always wasteful and inefficient, regardless of what department is spending the money.

True but with whats budgeted for the military it allows for bigger misuses and wastes

habsheaven
07-21-2012, 07:29 AM
I think you mean the AMT. The GST is related to the gift tax, not to income.

The GST (goods and services tax) up here is 5% nationally. Again each province has their own additional GST rate to go on top of that. In Nova Scotia, that tax is another 10%, in Ontario, it is 8%, in Alberta it is 0%. When you combine the two taxes it is called HST (harmonized sales tax). For Nova Scotia that makes it 15% (the highest) and only 5% for Alberta (the lowest). This tax is applied to most goods and services purchased with a few exceptions such as "grocery" food, water and financial services to name a few.

AUTaxMan
07-21-2012, 11:11 AM
The GST (goods and services tax) up here is 5% nationally. Again each province has their own additional GST rate to go on top of that. In Nova Scotia, that tax is another 10%, in Ontario, it is 8%, in Alberta it is 0%. When you combine the two taxes it is called HST (harmonized sales tax). For Nova Scotia that makes it 15% (the highest) and only 5% for Alberta (the lowest). This tax is applied to most goods and services purchased with a few exceptions such as "grocery" food, water and financial services to name a few.

GST in the U.S. is the generation-skipping transfer tax. It's incurred (generally) when a grandparent makes a gift to a grandchild. It's essentially a 50% tax on top of the 35% gift tax.

We have state and local sales taxes but no national sales tax. Sales taxes vary from state-to-state, and city-to-city, but here it is 10%. Some states have exemptions for certain food items, others do not.

OnePimpTiger
07-21-2012, 11:42 AM
Flat tax on all, with no loopholes. It's the only way.

Not up for reading the whole thread on Saturday morning...I'm in a good mood, I'd prefer to stay that way...but this ^ is the final answer. I'd like to see a low, flat income tax rate (same for everyone) with a sales tax...if you have more money, you buy more things, you pay more taxes, but everyone pays the same rate. That's the only "fair" tax system. Making some people pay more than others is the definition of unfair.

OnePimpTiger
07-21-2012, 11:46 AM
Fair share go with a fair tax. That way everyone pays the same amount based on what they earn and a 2% federal sales tax so anything you buy even the illegals will be paying into a system since they are the ones who sponge off us tax payers the most. and lets go with 10% FIC if 10% is good enough for God the 10% should be more than plenty for our Government. So if you only make 1.00 the whole year .10 cents of that is Federal Income tax and 2 % will be sales tax no matter how much you make.

You say the Middle class will pay more. I say NO! I dont see middle or poor class paying 250,000 for a car and yes 2% of that car will be added for sales tax. The only thing that should not be taxed is Food and Neccassities of life ie toilet paper, laundry detergent ect.

The system we have now stinks and they way Obama wants to go with it is wrong. If you think the rich are going to pay more in taxes they wont hurt they will just lay off employees they have so they will make the same amount of money they allways have and put more work on the workers that stay. The workers that stay will be affraid of leaving becuase there wont be that many jobs to have.

Next downsize the federal Government like Senators, and congress people, their secrataries, and their secrataties, and again their secrataries secrataries ad all the other people. We voted them in to do a job and represent us not to represent themselves which they have been doing for the past 20 years. We the people need to start putting fire under the feet who we put in office and not sit back on the couch and do nothing but complain. The last Senator I know of who voted against her own stance was Barbra Jordon on the gun control law that Clinton wanted. She knew if she voted for such a thing she would have been voted out of office.

Then ballance the budget if you dont have it you cant spend it!! I have to live on a budget so the Government should do they same but they act like a bunch of drunken sailors who been out on the seas for 6 months ( sorry for the sailors here but you guys know what I meant) and blowing the money they got. Next cut the WIC and foodstamp program by 1/4 and if they need all the money they must be subjected to drug screening and if they fail they are cut off the program for the rest of their lives. The 1/4 that was cut is to pay for the drug screening.

There are ways for a fair tax but the government wants to control our lives than me and you controlling our own lives. Its my life and I will do what I dang well please within the law and the 10 comandments.


Sorry for the rant got carried away again

Went back and read a little more...this is a good post too.

habsheaven
07-21-2012, 07:54 PM
As a staff member you are expected to portray yourself in a much better manner, treating members in such a condescending manner makes not only yourself look bad but embarrasses this site as well.

I was thinking something very similar to this.

duane1969
07-22-2012, 03:30 PM
Fair share = Flat tax

If person A pays 10%, person B pays 25% and person C pays 40% then nothing about that is fair. Saying that because I earn more that I am responsible for paying more holds no water. If everyone is going to pay a fair share then make it a reality. Don't tell me that it is fair that I pay $10,000 in taxes while someone else gets a $4000 rebate even though they only paid $1800 in taxes to begin with. There is NOTHING fair about that.

eEveryone likes to complain about loopholes for the rich. How about we discuss those nice little "loopholes" for the lower income earners?...

*Child tax credit - Allows a $1000 dollar deduction for each kid you have. Why should the government lose tax revenue because you decided to have more kids?
*New home buyers credit - I don't know if this is still active but it gave new home buyers a $1800 rebate (above what you paid into the tax system). Why should the Fed pay you for buying a home?
*Home owner interest deductions - You chose to buy a home and agreed to pay the interest rate. Why should the government lose tax revenue based on your interest rate?
*College tuition - If you pay all or part of your college tuition out of your own pocket then you can deduct it. Why? Since when is the government responsible for financing your post-secondary education.
"Non-cash contribution - Donate your old furniture and clothes to the Salvation Army, get a receipt for at least $500 and you can get it deducted from your taxes. What a joke. Why should you get a deduction for donating?

So much for the concept that only the rich get tax breaks.

JustAlex
07-23-2012, 02:20 AM
I love how conservatives defend the rich.....throughout the history of mankind the SUPER rich have exploited and manipulated the poor in order to keep their high status and to make sure the "peasants" don't revolt.

The GOP and conservatives serve this function flawlessly, they go to war against anyone that wants to impose higher taxes or fix the corrupted games the rich thrive in.

theonedru
07-23-2012, 02:50 AM
I love how conservatives defend the rich.....throughout the history of mankind the rich have exploited and manipulated the poor in order to keep their high status and to make sure the "peasants" don't revolt.

The GOP and conservatives serve this function flawlessly, they go to war against anyone that wants to impose higher taxes or fix the corrupted games the rich thrive in.

All I have to say this is an absolute lie and a slap in the face to many of my family members... back up your claims with hard facts before you go shooting your proverbial mouth off about things that are nowhere near true. Not every rich person is a fountain of evil like you make them out to be

JustAlex
07-23-2012, 03:07 AM
All I have to say this is an absolute lie and a slap in the face to many of my family members... back up your claims with hard facts before you go shooting your proverbial mouth off about things that are nowhere near true. Not every rich person is a fountain of evil like you make them out to be
I didn't know your family was in the top 1%...

BTW, you do realize this is the group I'm targeting, yes?

You do realize that the richest Americans control government and thus this country, yes?

Oh but you demand proof of my comment....sure:

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/03/government-for-the-super-rich-top-0-01-control-political-process-getmoneyout.html

http://www.vanityfair.com/society/features/2011/05/top-one-percent-201105

http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~unger/articles/inequality.html

All hail the United States of PLUTOCRACY!

theonedru
07-23-2012, 03:21 AM
I didn't know your family was in the top 1%...

BTW, you do realize this is the group I'm targeting, yes?

You do realize that the richest Americans control government and thus this country, yes?

Oh but you demand proof of my comment....sure:

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2012/03/government-for-the-super-rich-top-0-01-control-political-process-getmoneyout.html

http://www.vanityfair.com/society/features/2011/05/top-one-percent-201105

http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~unger/articles/inequality.html

All hail the United States of PLUTOCRACY!

I am a pretty private person normally when it comes to family and my personal life but when I see junk spewed like this with nothing to back it up it can disgust me. You think every person with money is abusing and using the poor and the system which is far from the truth. You just see stuff online, believe it to be truth then interpret it the best way you see fit to fit whatever agenda your slamming for the day.

JustAlex
07-23-2012, 03:46 AM
I am a pretty private person normally when it comes to family and my personal life but when I see junk spewed like this with nothing to back it up it can disgust me. You think every person with money is abusing and using the poor and the system which is far from the truth. You just see stuff online, believe it to be truth then interpret it the best way you see fit to fit whatever agenda your slamming for the day.
Did I say every person with money?

I clearly already said the 1%.

Does that mean every single person in the 1%.....no, but the evidence is there to show just how corrupt the 1% have become and how they control the American government.

BTW, how do you look at history and not see that the SUPER rich HAS always controlled the poor.....from monarchies to empires to dynasties to modern day "democracies" where money is power and power IS control.

Do you think movements such as Occupy Wall Street was simply done because they hate rich people and they're jealous at them?

NO, they see what's going on, corruption, greed, manipulation, control!


Any sensible government would've punished EVERY SINGLE person responsible for the financial crisis this country has had to endure.....but when government IS controlled by the people responsible for the crisis, of course nothing is done of course taxes are lowered, and laws enacted to make their corruption easier to get away with (e.g. Citizens United Supreme Court decision).

theonedru
07-23-2012, 04:16 AM
Did I say every person with money?

I clearly already said the 1%.

No.. No you did not you said and this is a direct cut and paste

throughout the history of mankind the rich have exploited and manipulated the poor in order to keep their high status and to make sure the "peasants" don't revolt.

You say nothing of the top 1% you just totally generalize anyone with money together as an evil consortium. Proof does't lie Alex ......

theonedru
07-23-2012, 04:20 AM
And those Occupy Wall Street people should try getting off their butts and try working for a living. How do you think all these people can protest the government for even a week or 2 without working? Think about it, Government subsidies whether it be welfare or whatever but if they are living in tents occupying public land they have to be getting cash from somewhere.

JustAlex
07-23-2012, 04:35 AM
No.. No you did not you said and this is a direct cut and paste

throughout the history of mankind the rich have exploited and manipulated the poor in order to keep their high status and to make sure the "peasants" don't revolt.

You say nothing of the top 1% you just totally generalize anyone with money together as an evil consortium. Proof does't lie Alex ......
Very well.

I retract that statement and I'll edit it to say the SUPER RICH.

My implication was the 1% of present America and the SUPER RICH in history.

JustAlex
07-23-2012, 04:40 AM
And those Occupy Wall Street people should try getting off their butts and try working for a living. How do you think all these people can protest the government for even a week or 2 without working? Think about it, Government subsidies whether it be welfare or whatever but if they are living in tents occupying public land they have to be getting cash from somewhere.
Some people can't find work in their specialized fields, a big number of OWS were COLLEGE educated.

Some of them will not take any job that comes along, they DID work hard to get their degrees or ARE working hard to receive it.

And I would include myself as a member of OWS, I support their main message and I would want nothing more than to see the people responsible for the financial crisis of this country come to justice, to see a REAL reform to Wall Street, and for the corruption of corporations and the rest of the 1% to get out of government so we can actually get things accomplished.

NO ONE should be above the law.

theonedru
07-23-2012, 04:48 AM
Some people can't find work in their specialized fields, a big number of OWS were COLLEGE educated.

Some of them will not take any job that comes along, they DID work hard to get their degrees or ARE working hard to receive it.

And I would include myself as a member of OWS, I support their main message and I would want nothing more than to see the people responsible for the financial crisis of this country come to justice, to see a REAL reform to Wall Street, and for the corruption of corporations and the rest of the 1% to get out of government so we can actually get things accomplished.

NO ONE should be above the law.

So its ok for them to leech off the system they are protesting against.. That is the pinnacle of hypocrisy. And those that refuse to take any job, well they just deserve to starve they do not deserve squat if they are going to be leeches, they are whats wrong with this country, people who see some jobs as below them. I could go on and on pointing out how wrong what you said is but I feel when others read this they will have a field day with it...

JustAlex
07-23-2012, 05:00 AM
So its ok for them to leech off the system they are protesting against.. That is the pinnacle of hypocrisy. And those that refuse to take any job, well they just deserve to starve they do not deserve squat if they are going to be leeches, they are whats wrong with this country, people who see some jobs as below them. I could go on and on pointing out how wrong what you said is but I feel when others read this they will have a field day with it...
What system are they leeching off?

Do you mean unemployment compensation, welfare, and food stamps?

Do you know if all of them are getting this?

And even if they are, they are against corruption and the system they are fighting is wall street's influence on the government, I don't think that at any time they have said they were against social safety nets or that they want to over throw government or anything like that.


Yeah, someone goes to school for 4 or more years, gets into thousands of dollars in debt in order to pay tuition and you want them to get any job that comes along?

How sensible is that?

But many of them haven't "given up" or simply being lazy, they're trying their best with the cards they have been dealt.

I know so, because I went to a few protests and I was able to speak to some of the other members.

I could tell you my own story (I'm fresh out of college and know first hand how difficult it is to get a job).....but of course this won't change your mind and your words are very indicative of compliance.

mrveggieman
07-23-2012, 08:27 AM
You just see stuff online, believe it to be truth then interpret it the best way you see fit to fit whatever agenda your slamming for the day.

Wow for a second there I thought you were describing some of our conservative members who swing on every word that comes out of rush's mouth like it is the gospel. :pound:

AUTaxMan
07-23-2012, 10:34 AM
i am a pretty private person normally when it comes to family and my personal life but when i see junk spewed like this with nothing to back it up it can disgust me. You think every person with money is abusing and using the poor and the system which is far from the truth. You just see stuff online, believe it to be truth then interpret it the best way you see fit to fit whatever agenda your slamming for the day.

nm

AUTaxMan
07-23-2012, 10:35 AM
Very well.

I retract that statement and I'll edit it to say the SUPER RICH.

My implication was the 1% of present America and the SUPER RICH in history.

Define "super rich." You speak in nothing but generalizations. Think about what your are going to type before typing it.

JustAlex
07-23-2012, 11:20 AM
Define "super rich." You speak in nothing but generalizations. Think about what your are going to type before typing it.
I think I just did.

For present day America, the super rich is the 1%.

Again, just look at history, look at the way the SUPER rich controlled countries, subjugated the poor, and had things their way.

Check out all the stats I lay out, all the links, I make sure to put down facts to support my positions.....although I do admit that many of the things I say are opinions, one can't deny how much the SUPER rich has a grasp on government.

boba
07-23-2012, 11:26 AM
I think I just did.

For present day America, the super rich is the 1%.

Again, just look at history, look at the way the SUPER rich controlled countries, subjugated the poor, and had things their way.

Check out all the stats I lay out, all the links, I make sure to put down facts to support my positions.....although I do admit that many of the things I say are opinions, one can't deny how much the SUPER rich has a grasp on government.

So anyone who makes over $344,000 are the SUPER RICH evil people?

AUTaxMan
07-23-2012, 11:31 AM
I think I just did.

For present day America, the super rich is the 1%.

Again, just look at history, look at the way the SUPER rich controlled countries, subjugated the poor, and had things their way.

Check out all the stats I lay out, all the links, I make sure to put down facts to support my positions.....although I do admit that many of the things I say are opinions, one can't deny how much the SUPER rich has a grasp on government.

No you didn't. Define the 1%.

duane1969
07-23-2012, 11:33 AM
Here is the fallacy in heavily taxing the "super" rich.

The "super" rich are by and large the big business owners and large investors in businesses and the stock market. By heavily taxing them to the point of them no longer being "super rich" will effectively kill their business enterprises and investment ability. Net result, businesses close and jobs are lost creating more poor. In one fell swoop the government will have eliminated the top tax payers and increased the number of people needing government help.

Since the "super" rich are now gone and the government needs more money than ever thanks to the increased number of poor and unemployed, the government will have no choice but to raise taxes on the "really" rich. These "really" rich are the mid-sezed business owners and franchise owners. They are mid-level employers and contribute to the economy by buying new homes and nice cars. Since they are now being heavily taxed and can no longer do things like they used to they will stop buying new homes and new cars. Many of them will either lay off workers or outright close their business. Net result, the number of "really rich" will be greatly reduced or eliminated and since there are less new homes and cars being built and they had to lay off employees or close their businesses, there are even more poor and unemployed than before.

Net result. The "super" rich are gone and the "really" rich are in danger of extinction. At the same time, the number of poor and unemployed has reached unsupportable numbers due to their need for welfare, health care and housing. The government is spending most of it's tax revenue just to support it's population. It needs more taxes. Now where are those "kinda" rich...you know, the middle class. They have luxuries like television and air conditioning and they need to give up those things so that the poor can have more.

Simple reality. In the history of man-kind, there is not a single society that was successful because wealth was taken from the rich and given to the poor. There is not a single example that can be given where a large portion of a society was poor and their poverty was eliminated by them being given small amounts of food and money. Poverty is eliminated by employment and a desire to succeed, not a handout.

JustAlex
07-23-2012, 11:37 AM
So anyone who makes over $344,000 are the SUPER RICH evil people?
I posted earlier that it's obviously not everyone.

I think the ones that do most harm are the ones in positions where they are literally making money from providing NOTHING of worth to a society.

JustAlex
07-23-2012, 11:40 AM
Simple reality. In the history of man-kind, there is not a single society that was successful because wealth was taken from the rich and given to the poor. There is not a single example that can be given where a large portion of a society was poor and their poverty was eliminated by them being given small amounts of food and money. Poverty is eliminated by employment and a desire to succeed, not a handout.
Ever heard of the French Revolution?

AUTaxMan
07-23-2012, 12:01 PM
I posted earlier that it's obviously not everyone.

I think the ones that do most harm are the ones in positions where they are literally making money from providing NOTHING of worth to a society.

Who are these people? Who are the 1%? How do I know if I am in one of these groups or not? You can't even define what you are talking about.

AUTaxMan
07-23-2012, 12:02 PM
Ever heard of the French Revolution?

Are you talking about that bloodless change of power from the rich to the poor in the late 1700s?

boba
07-23-2012, 01:10 PM
I think I just did.

For present day America, the super rich is the 1%.

Again, just look at history, look at the way the SUPER rich controlled countries, subjugated the poor, and had things their way.

Check out all the stats I lay out, all the links, I make sure to put down facts to support my positions.....although I do admit that many of the things I say are opinions, one can't deny how much the SUPER rich has a grasp on government.


I posted earlier that it's obviously not everyone.

I think the ones that do most harm are the ones in positions where they are literally making money from providing NOTHING of worth to a society.

See bolded part. Makes no sense.

boba
07-23-2012, 01:29 PM
Here is the fallacy in heavily taxing the "super" rich.

The "super" rich are by and large the big business owners and large investors in businesses and the stock market. By heavily taxing them to the point of them no longer being "super rich" will effectively kill their business enterprises and investment ability. Net result, businesses close and jobs are lost creating more poor. In one fell swoop the government will have eliminated the top tax payers and increased the number of people needing government help.

Since the "super" rich are now gone and the government needs more money than ever thanks to the increased number of poor and unemployed, the government will have no choice but to raise taxes on the "really" rich. These "really" rich are the mid-sezed business owners and franchise owners. They are mid-level employers and contribute to the economy by buying new homes and nice cars. Since they are now being heavily taxed and can no longer do things like they used to they will stop buying new homes and new cars. Many of them will either lay off workers or outright close their business. Net result, the number of "really rich" will be greatly reduced or eliminated and since there are less new homes and cars being built and they had to lay off employees or close their businesses, there are even more poor and unemployed than before.

Net result. The "super" rich are gone and the "really" rich are in danger of extinction. At the same time, the number of poor and unemployed has reached unsupportable numbers due to their need for welfare, health care and housing. The government is spending most of it's tax revenue just to support it's population. It needs more taxes. Now where are those "kinda" rich...you know, the middle class. They have luxuries like television and air conditioning and they need to give up those things so that the poor can have more.

Simple reality. In the history of man-kind, there is not a single society that was successful because wealth was taken from the rich and given to the poor. There is not a single example that can be given where a large portion of a society was poor and their poverty was eliminated by them being given small amounts of food and money. Poverty is eliminated by employment and a desire to succeed, not a handout.

Very good post. Thank you for pointing our the elephant in the room.

theonedru
07-23-2012, 02:02 PM
What system are they leeching off?

Do you mean unemployment compensation, welfare, and food stamps?

Do you know if all of them are getting this?

And even if they are, they are against corruption and the system they are fighting is wall street's influence on the government, I don't think that at any time they have said they were against social safety nets or that they want to over throw government or anything like that.


Yeah, someone goes to school for 4 or more years, gets into thousands of dollars in debt in order to pay tuition and you want them to get any job that comes along?

How sensible is that?

I could tell you my own story (I'm fresh out of college and know first hand how difficult it is to get a job).....but of course this won't change your mind and your words are very indicative of compliance.

Ok the bolded and underlined part make no sense, you know why? Because they are the corruption within the system. There is nothing that more represents the elitist attitude you so dislike than the concept of entitlement of which the example you have given is the perfect example. Sitting around on some form of government handout is not how you get your dream job. You go out and you get whatever you can find and fight and claw with rabid determination and fight with anything possible to get to your goal. Thats how you get noticed and thats how you get hired. Those you speak of do not get their dream jobs because they show nothing that merits them being hired and they lose out to the less qualified because the less qualified worked to be where they are. Your concept of being lazy living off of handouts until you get hired for what you went to school for is ridiculous and embarrassing.

duane1969
07-23-2012, 04:17 PM
Ever heard of the French Revolution?

Yup. I may not be a rocket scientist but I am pretty sure that the term Revolution has nothing to do with the government giving money out to poor people.

duane1969
07-23-2012, 04:26 PM
Are you talking about that bloodless change of power from the rich to the poor in the late 1700s?

Yeah, the one that ended with the bourgeois and land-owners in power that still left the poor in poverty and the weak without power. All it did was take the power out of the ruling class and hand it to the wealthy landowners and societal elitists. And I have no idea what point he is trying to make. It has NOTHING to do with the government overtaxing the wealthy and giving handouts to the poor.

JustAlex
07-23-2012, 07:45 PM
Hahaha! I expected nothing less from you guys....


Ok the bolded and underlined part make no sense, you know why? Because they are the corruption within the system. There is nothing that more represents the elitist attitude you so dislike than the concept of entitlement of which the example you have given is the perfect example. Sitting around on some form of government handout is not how you get your dream job. You go out and you get whatever you can find and fight and claw with rabid determination and fight with anything possible to get to your goal. Thats how you get noticed and thats how you get hired. Those you speak of do not get their dream jobs because they show nothing that merits them being hired and they lose out to the less qualified because the less qualified worked to be where they are. Your concept of being lazy living off of handouts until you get hired for what you went to school for is ridiculous and embarrassing.
You're amazing dude, you really are.

I NEVER said that the majority are on entitlements, maybe some are but I would argue that most aren't, do you know why?

Because a lot of them are single, fresh out of college, no job experience, they wouldn't even qualify for most entitlement programs and I LOVE the way you think that anyone that IS getting entitlements is LAZY or ABUSING the system.

I love the way you think that everyone has the same situations and you actually believe that anyone can "claw with rabid determination" towards any goal.

Let me know when you get to real life then we'll discuss this a little better.


Yup. I may not be a rocket scientist but I am pretty sure that the term Revolution has nothing to do with the government giving money out to poor people.
Good lord....

The French Revolution was one of the biggest and most important transitions of power, religious ideology, and societal ideals ever to happen on this planet.

It was BIGGER than the American Revolution and MANY people died to fight the corruption of the wealthy monarchy and aristocrats.

Seriously, if you do not understand what the French Revolution did for France and ultimately Europe then you should really read up more on it.


Quite frankly while many people love to make fun of the French for various things, they (IMO) have been a much more ideal society with the postions I currently support.....they TAX the richest French citizens a higher percentage than we do, they have the #1 Health Care system in the world and their citizens are happier than ours.

But that's besides the point.....The French Revolution showed that when a country has become so corrupted by the most wealthiest and powerful, ordinary citizens will not take it anymore and they WILL revolt!

I don't think we are anywhere close to what 1789 France looked like, but let's just wait another 10 or so years...

theonedru
07-23-2012, 10:51 PM
Hahaha! I expected nothing less from you guys....


You're amazing dude, you really are.

I NEVER said that the majority are on entitlements, maybe some are but I would argue that most aren't, do you know why?

Because a lot of them are single, fresh out of college, no job experience, they wouldn't even qualify for most entitlement programs and I LOVE the way you think that anyone that IS getting entitlements is LAZY or ABUSING the system.

I love the way you think that everyone has the same situations and you actually believe that anyone can "claw with rabid determination" towards any goal.

Let me know when you get to real life then we'll discuss this a little better.


Good lord....

The French Revolution was one of the biggest and most important transitions of power, religious ideology, and societal ideals ever to happen on this planet.

It was BIGGER than the American Revolution and MANY people died to fight the corruption of the wealthy monarchy and aristocrats.

Seriously, if you do not understand what the French Revolution did for France and ultimately Europe then you should really read up more on it.


Quite frankly while many people love to make fun of the French for various things, they (IMO) have been a much more ideal society with the postions I currently support.....they TAX the richest French citizens a higher percentage than we do, they have the #1 Health Care system in the world and their citizens are happier than ours.

But that's besides the point.....The French Revolution showed that when a country has become so corrupted by the most wealthiest and powerful, ordinary citizens will not take it anymore and they WILL revolt!

I don't think we are anywhere close to what 1789 France looked like, but let's just wait another 10 or so years...

And once again a direct cut and paste of what you wrote, you might have to read it once or twice since you do not remember saying it the first time, which just makes me wonder if you even pay attention to what you say

Yeah, someone goes to school for 4 or more years, gets into thousands of dollars in debt in order to pay tuition and you want them to get any job that comes along?

How sensible is that?

That's how life works, if you can't find a job in your field you look elsewhere until one better suited comes along, you do not leech off the system expecting it to just come along

*censored*
07-23-2012, 11:59 PM
Reasons why a graduated income tax system doesn't work...

For point of illustration, let's say the dividing line from one tax bracket to another is at $100,000. Below that level, you pay 10%. Above that level, you pay 25%.

What motivation is for me to earn over $100,000 if I'll have to pay $25,000 in taxes (keeping $75,000)? Why not stay at $99,000 and thus only pay $9,900 (keeping $89,100). It penalizes and hinders success and progress.

Granted, if I could make more than that $89,900 post-tax at the 25% bracket, fine. But to do that, I'd have to make close to $120,000. That's a bigger jump to try to make that extra $20K to cover the extra tax than to just make $1K less.

AUTaxMan
07-24-2012, 12:58 AM
Reasons why a graduated income tax system doesn't work...

For point of illustration, let's say the dividing line from one tax bracket to another is at $100,000. Below that level, you pay 10%. Above that level, you pay 25%.

What motivation is for me to earn over $100,000 if I'll have to pay $25,000 in taxes (keeping $75,000)? Why not stay at $99,000 and thus only pay $9,900 (keeping $89,100). It penalizes and hinders success and progress.

Granted, if I could make more than that $89,900 post-tax at the 25% bracket, fine. But to do that, I'd have to make close to $120,000. That's a bigger jump to try to make that extra $20K to cover the extra tax than to just make $1K less.

That's not how graduated tax systems work. In your example, you would pay $10,000 tax on the first $100,000, then you would pay 25% tax on each dollar earned over $100,000.

AUTaxMan
07-24-2012, 01:02 AM
Alex, why don't you read this little write-up in the Wall Street Journal on the best healthcare system in the world:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124958049241511735.html

duane1969
07-24-2012, 01:49 AM
Good lord....

The French Revolution was one of the biggest and most important transitions of power, religious ideology, and societal ideals ever to happen on this planet.

It was BIGGER than the American Revolution and MANY people died to fight the corruption of the wealthy monarchy and aristocrats.

Seriously, if you do not understand what the French Revolution did for France and ultimately Europe then you should really read up more on it.


Quite frankly while many people love to make fun of the French for various things, they (IMO) have been a much more ideal society with the postions I currently support.....they TAX the richest French citizens a higher percentage than we do, they have the #1 Health Care system in the world and their citizens are happier than ours.

But that's besides the point.....The French Revolution showed that when a country has become so corrupted by the most wealthiest and powerful, ordinary citizens will not take it anymore and they WILL revolt!

I don't think we are anywhere close to what 1789 France looked like, but let's just wait another 10 or so years...

Good lord, not a single figment of any of that is relevant to your position that the wealthy should be heavily taxed and all of that cash handed out to the poor. If you do not understand that the French Revolution has absolutely nothing to do with the government overtaxing the wealthy to fund a nanny state for the poor then you need to read up more on it. The simple reality is that I said that there is no society that succeeded by taking wealth from the rich and giving it to the poor. Your decision to try and use the French Revolution as an example of a succesful society baffles me. The French Revolution IS NOT an example of a society that succeeded by over-taxing the rich and giving handouts to the poor.

What's more, if you respect the French government then that is your choice, but you might like to know that the wealthy and elite are still in power, they still have a whole bunch of poor people (6.2% poverty rate) and they have a higher unemployment rate (10.1%) than the US (8.2%). As more proof that the French are hardly a model society, just 4 years ago they passed a tax shelter that protects wealthy people who move to France from having to pay taxes on their non-French assets for 5 years as a way to try and draw wealthy people into their country. I can't imagine why they would need tax shelters to attract wealthy people if their society is so perfect.

Oh, and it seems that what wealthy people remain in France are now looking to get out because of the increasing effort to tax them even more. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9404209/Frances-proposed-tax-hikes-spark-exodus-of-wealthy.html

JustAlex
07-24-2012, 02:07 AM
Good lord, not a single figment of any of that is relevant to your position that the wealthy should be heavily taxed and all of that cash handed out to the poor. If you do not understand that the French Revolution has absolutely nothing to do with the government overtaxing the wealthy to fund a nanny state for the poor then you need to read up more on it. The simple reality is that I said that there is no society that succeeded by taking wealth from the rich and giving it to the poor. Your decision to try and use the French Revolution as an example of a succesful society baffles me. The French Revolution IS NOT an example of a society that succeeded by over-taxing the rich and giving handouts to the poor.
Dude, you said that there has never been an example of a society overthrowing the rich and giving the money to the poor.

Although the French Revolution doesn't exactly meet that ridiculous criteria they DID overthrow the rich and they DID change their country FOR THE BETTER.....of course it didn't happen overnight, it was a slow transition and eventually there was much more equality for the social classes and today they have a better gap between the wealthy and the poor than our miserable country.


What's more, if you respect the French government then that is your choice, but you might like to know that the wealthy and elite are still in power, they still have a whole bunch of poor people (6.2% poverty rate) and they have a higher unemployment rate (10.1%) than the US (8.2%). As more proof that the French are hardly a model society, just 4 years ago they passed a tax shelter that protects wealthy people who move to France from having to pay taxes on their non-French assets for 5 years as a way to try and draw wealthy people into their country. I can't imagine why they would need tax shelters to attract wealthy people if their society is so perfect.

Oh, and it seems that what wealthy people remain in France are now looking to get out because of the increasing effort to tax them even more. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9404209/Frances-proposed-tax-hikes-spark-exodus-of-wealthy.html
Well duh, Having money is Power and Power is control......the rest of your comments are a reflection of the ongoing global financial crisis.

JustAlex
07-24-2012, 02:17 AM
Alex, why don't you read this little write-up in the Wall Street Journal on the best healthcare system in the world:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124958049241511735.html

Do you understand that the U.S spends 16% of their GDP on a crappy health care system, while NO system is perfect, France's along with the MAJORITY of Europe's Socialized Health Care is STILL Cheaper and more EFFICIENT than ours.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ozTUHJiLbAk/TeeUvXBVmWI/AAAAAAAAMWk/KdZD9ycqyI4/s1600/ranking%2Bhealthcare%2Bsystems.png

duane1969
07-24-2012, 02:29 AM
Dude, you said that there has never been an example of a society overthrowing the rich and giving the money to the poor.

Although the French Revolution doesn't exactly meet that ridiculous criteria they DID overthrow the rich and they DID change their country FOR THE BETTER.....of course it didn't happen overnight, it was a slow transition and eventually there was much more equality for the social classes and today they have a better gap between the wealthy and the poor than our miserable country.


Well duh, Having money is Power and Power is control......the rest of your comments are a reflection of the ongoing global financial crisis.

Dude, no I didn't...


Simple reality. In the history of man-kind, there is not a single society that was successful because wealth was taken from the rich and given to the poor. There is not a single example that can be given where a large portion of a society was poor and their poverty was eliminated by them being given small amounts of food and money. Poverty is eliminated by employment and a desire to succeed, not a handout.

JustAlex
07-24-2012, 02:35 AM
Dude, no I didn't...
"In the history of man-kind, there is not a single society that was successful because wealth was taken from the rich and given to the poor"

How else would this process occur other than to overthrow them?

Taxes don't reward ANYONE.....

Y​ou are stating ROBIN HOOD type actions, if your intention was to say that there has never been a society that was successful by TAXING the rich and giving their money to the poor.....then that would've made more sense!

theonedru
07-24-2012, 02:42 AM
"In the history of man-kind, there is not a single society that was successful because wealth was taken from the rich and given to the poor"

How else would this process occur other than to overthrow them?

Taxes don't reward ANYONE.....

Y​ou are stating ROBIN HOOD type actions, if your intention was to say that there has never been a society that was successful by TAXING the rich and giving their money to the poor.....then that would've made more sense!

If poor people want to be rich there are ways to achieve it if they are willing and have the drive/desire to succeed. No one should get something for nothing and no one who worked hard to get where they are deserves to have that stripped from them. End point people are lazy and jealous

duane1969
07-24-2012, 03:03 AM
[COLOR=#333333]

Y​ou are stating ROBIN HOOD type actions, if your intention was to say that there has never been a society that was successful by TAXING the rich and giving their money to the poor.....then that would've made more sense!

That is exactly what I was saying. Looking at the original post and subject of discussion prior to my comment, it is pretty clear to me that what was being discussed was increasing taxes on the rich. I don't know how you missed that.

indexed
07-24-2012, 03:13 AM
that whole secretary pays 30% and the boss pays 15% doesn't really hold water. When you think about it the 30% she is paying is already coming out of her pocket. I have a bit of problem with no bid contracts more then I do the tax rate. The IRS is stupid as a whole and we need a flat tax and no IRS. No one likes this because it doenst incorporate the class warfare ideology but I think its the best solution.

JustAlex
07-24-2012, 03:49 AM
That is exactly what I was saying. Looking at the original post and subject of discussion prior to my comment, it is pretty clear to me that what was being discussed was increasing taxes on the rich. I don't know how you missed that.
Then if that was the case, I can admit that I misinterpreted your comment.

My French Revolution example was to show how a society overthrew a very corrupt, greedy, and socially unfair Monarchy which was exceedingly wealthy and drastically changed France and Europe.

But I now see what you mean and my example is a non sequitur to what you were saying about taxes.

I guess I'll leave it at that.

mrveggieman
07-24-2012, 08:18 AM
that whole secretary pays 30% and the boss pays 15% doesn't really hold water. When you think about it the 30% she is paying is already coming out of her pocket. I have a bit of problem with no bid contracts more then I do the tax rate. The IRS is stupid as a whole and we need a flat tax and no IRS. No one likes this because it doenst incorporate the class warfare ideology but I think its the best solution.


Agreed!

*censored*
07-24-2012, 11:37 AM
That's not how graduated tax systems work. In your example, you would pay $10,000 tax on the first $100,000, then you would pay 25% tax on each dollar earned over $100,000.

Damn tax experts ruining my point...

duane1969
07-24-2012, 03:14 PM
Then if that was the case, I can admit that I misinterpreted your comment.

My French Revolution example was to show how a society overthrew a very corrupt, greedy, and socially unfair Monarchy which was exceedingly wealthy and drastically changed France and Europe.

But I now see what you mean and my example is a non sequitur to what you were saying about taxes.

I guess I'll leave it at that.

The problem is that even a version of the French Revolution would never happen here. Unlike the French Revolution era, in America the poor are fully supported by the government and without governemnt handouts the poor would literally die off in weeks. Unlike the French, the American poor have no means of self-support. They can not farm, hunt or scavenge with any measurable success. They have become fully dependent on social programs.

Since the poor don't pay taxes it would be equally self-damning to attack the rich who fund the very welfare system that keeps the poor alive. No rich = no tax revenue = no welfare check in the mailbox. The simple reality is that the tax revenue generated by wage earners under $100k a year is not enough to support the entitlement program system. Heck, the tax system that we have now doesn't even support the entitlement programs that we have.

Wickabee
07-24-2012, 04:21 PM
Since the poor don't pay taxes it would be equally self-damning to attack the rich who fund the very welfare system that keeps the poor alive. No rich = no tax revenue = no welfare check in the mailbox. The simple reality is that the tax revenue generated by wage earners under $100k a year is not enough to support the entitlement program system. Heck, the tax system that we have now doesn't even support the entitlement programs that we have.

Here's the problem with that. You don't have to be homeless or on welfare to be below the poverty line. Poor people do pay taxes, but the poorest of the poor, let's call them destitute, do not.

There's also the question of what constitutes "poor"