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ALADOG
07-27-2012, 11:06 AM
I have read somewhere that the actual discussion about religion when our country was founded was about keeping any Chistian DENOMINATION from being established as a State religion, not the exclusion of religion 100% as we now interpret. There apparently are writings (letters to and from the founding fathers) to support this.

And the other question; please point out the Muslims, Hindus, Buddists, followers of Confucious and followers of other world religions that were founding fathers. I am aware of several that were deists, but none of the above mentioned.

So is the old statement that we are the melting pot true or a farce? It appears that the founders of our country were primarily WASPS with similar backgrounds.

mrveggieman
07-27-2012, 11:25 AM
I have read somewhere that the actual discussion about religion when our country was founded was about keeping any Chistian DENOMINATION from being established as a State religion, not the exclusion of religion 100% as we now interpret. There apparently are writings (letters to and from the founding fathers) to support this.

And the other question; please point out the Muslims, Hindus, Buddists, followers of Confucious and followers of other world religions that were founding fathers. I am aware of several that were deists, but none of the above mentioned.

So is the old statement that we are the melting pot true or a farce? It appears that the founders of our country were primarily WASPS with similar backgrounds.

That may be very well so but correct me if I'm wrong but no where in the constitution or the declaration of independence are the words christian, christanity or jesus is mentioned. With that being said the founding fathers did intend for this country to have religious freedom for all not just christians.

jessejordan419
07-27-2012, 11:36 AM
I have read somewhere that the actual discussion about religion when our country was founded was about keeping any Chistian DENOMINATION from being established as a State religion, not the exclusion of religion 100% as we now interpret. There apparently are writings (letters to and from the founding fathers) to support this.

And the other question; please point out the Muslims, Hindus, Buddists, followers of Confucious and followers of other world religions that were founding fathers. I am aware of several that were deists, but none of the above mentioned.

So is the old statement that we are the melting pot true or a farce? It appears that the founders of our country were primarily WASPS with similar backgrounds.



The only thing in the Constitution concerning "Religion", was that the Congress could not establish a "National Religion". Here is what is actually in the Constitution:

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


Therefore, Congress cannot "separate Church from State". That is a total misinterpretation of the Constitution by the forces that wish to shut Christianity out of America. All this says, is basically the Congress cannot establish a "National Religion" as was the case in England, which is why they left.

The "deist" argument falls flat on Thomas Jefferson, and it is an argument atheists try to use. Here is Thomas Jefferson's own words:
"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

Thomas Jefferson had as many problems with the Protestant Denominations of his day, as I do with the Denominations of our day. The Great Liar uses Denominations to separate Christians, so that they will not have a positive impact on the world, or at least less of one. If Christians would unite behind Christ, we could change the world for the better. The more we bicker amongst ourselves, the more we lose......


I am not anything but a believer in Christ. I try to follow His teachings as best as I can, and I stumble, but I get up and try again. That is what it means to be a Christian.

pghin08
07-27-2012, 11:44 AM
The only thing in the Constitution concerning "Religion", was that the Congress could not establish a "National Religion". Here is what is actually in the Constitution:

Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791. Note

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


Therefore, Congress cannot "separate Church from State". That is a total misinterpretation of the Constitution by the forces that wish to shut Christianity out of America. All this says, is basically the Congress cannot establish a "National Religion" as was the case in England, which is why they left.

The "deist" argument falls flat on Thomas Jefferson, and it is an argument atheists try to use. Here is Thomas Jefferson's own words:
"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

Thomas Jefferson had as many problems with the Protestant Denominations of his day, as I do with the Denominations of our day. The Great Liar uses Denominations to separate Christians, so that they will not have a positive impact on the world, or at least less of one. If Christians would unite behind Christ, we could change the world for the better. The more we bicker amongst ourselves, the more we lose......


I am not anything but a believer in Christ. I try to follow His teachings as best as I can, and I stumble, but I get up and try again. That is what it means to be a Christian.

No it's not. The separation of Church and State was brought up by the man you quoted, Thomas Jefferson, in his letter to the Danbury Baptists in 1802, in which he stated "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State." It's not a misinterpretation of the Constitution at all, it has nothing to do with it.

jessejordan419
07-27-2012, 11:44 AM
It is absolute fallacy to say that Prayer cannot be allowed in schools because of "separation of Church and State". That is the lame unConstitutional argument used by atheists time and time again. Why do they not cry out about sharia law in our schools and our government? Why are mooslims allowed to advance islam throughout our government, but not Christians allowed to advance Christianity?

Because islam is tyranny. islam actually means, submission. Leftist ideology follows the same path, however, it is the classic tale of the scorpion and the frog. Once islam uses atheism/aclu/leftism to advance islam, they will execute leftists like they will Christians.

islam executes homosexuals, but you don't see leftists cry out about that.
islam enslaves and beats women, but you don't see the left cry about that
islam allows the rape of children, but you don't see the left cry about that.
islam executes anyone that does not bow to islam, but you don't see the left cry about that.
islam punishes education outside of their strict interpretation of everything, but you don't see the left cry about that.

Do I need to go on? And you can say all you want about "WASPS founding this country", but listen to this:

The Rothschilds were the one's who financed George Washington's army at Valley Forge. Without the backing of rich Jewish European families, Washington would not have had the ammunition, arms, food, clothing, etc. to attack and defeat the British. Food for thought when you're trying to deride our founding documents because "WASPS founded this country".

AUTaxMan
07-27-2012, 11:47 AM
Here's a good article on the issue.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=123

AUTaxMan
07-27-2012, 11:47 AM
No it's not. The separation of Church and State was brought up by the man you quoted, Thomas Jefferson, in his letter to the Danbury Baptists in 1802, in which he stated "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State." It's not a misinterpretation of the Constitution at all, it has nothing to do with it.

That line is taken out of context. Read the article I posted above.

jessejordan419
07-27-2012, 11:56 AM
No it's not. The separation of Church and State was brought up by the man you quoted, Thomas Jefferson, in his letter to the Danbury Baptists in 1802, in which he stated "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State." It's not a misinterpretation of the Constitution at all, it has nothing to do with it.


I don't think you understand what you are quoting. Re-read the statement:
'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,'

That is what our Constitution says. It says that Congress cannot establish a relgion, OR prohibit the free exercise thereof. That means that you CANNOT prohibit MY free exercise of religion. If I want to put a nativity scene in front of my branch of government, be it state, local, or federal, you cannot prohibit me from doing that. You cannot prohibit me from Praying in the Name of Jesus Christ in a school, army, court, or any other government office.

But leftists have gone against our Constitution, and radical judges have ursurpt their power to only interpret law, instead writing law from the bench. Just as a Republican appointed Chief Justice did with obamacare. He wrote law from the bench, which is unConstitutional, only Congress can write law.

jessejordan419
07-27-2012, 11:59 AM
Here's a good article on the issue.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=123


Awesome find!! David Barton is Awesome!! I doubt, however, that the devout followers of leftism will even bother to read concrete fact or evidence. They would rather "believe the lie" than have to admit that they were wrong or lied to.

mrveggieman
07-27-2012, 12:02 PM
I don't think you understand what you are quoting. Re-read the statement:
'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,'

That is what our Constitution says. It says that Congress cannot establish a relgion, OR prohibit the free exercise thereof. That means that you CANNOT prohibit MY free exercise of religion. If I want to put a nativity scene in front of my branch of government, be it state, local, or federal, you cannot prohibit me from doing that. You cannot prohibit me from Praying in the Name of Jesus Christ in a school, army, court, or any other government office.

But leftists have gone against our Constitution, and radical judges have ursurpt their power to only interpret law, instead writing law from the bench. Just as a Republican appointed Chief Justice did with obamacare. He wrote law from the bench, which is unConstitutional, only Congress can write law.

Using that same logic you cannot prohibit a budhist who is a legal US citizen from placing a statue of Buddah infront of his state, local or federal gov't office nor can any prohibit his legal right to practice buddhism in the united states.

AUTaxMan
07-27-2012, 12:08 PM
Using that same logic you cannot prohibit a budhist who is a legal US citizen from placing a statue of Buddah infront of his state, local or federal gov't office nor can any prohibit his legal right to practice buddhism in the united states.

Precisely.

pghin08
07-27-2012, 12:31 PM
That line is taken out of context. Read the article I posted above.

Like I said in the other thread, the Supreme Court sees things differently. Take it up with them.

AUTaxMan
07-27-2012, 12:41 PM
Like I said in the other thread, the Supreme Court sees things differently. Take it up with them.

We all know the Supreme Court sees things differently. That's not an argument. The issue is whether the supreme court is right or wrong in interpreting it the way they do.

pghin08
07-27-2012, 12:48 PM
We all know the Supreme Court sees things differently. That's not an argument. The issue is whether the supreme court is right or wrong in interpreting it the way they do.

I read it the way the Supreme Court does, frankly.

mrveggieman
07-27-2012, 12:51 PM
We all know the Supreme Court sees things differently. That's not an argument. The issue is whether the supreme court is right or wrong in interpreting it the way they do.

Wrong according to who? The people who their decisions are not convenient for them?

ALADOG
07-27-2012, 12:51 PM
It is absolute fallacy to say that Prayer cannot be allowed in schools because of "separation of Church and State". That is the lame unConstitutional argument used by atheists time and time again. Why do they not cry out about sharia law in our schools and our government? Why are mooslims allowed to advance islam throughout our government, but not Christians allowed to advance Christianity?

Because islam is tyranny. islam actually means, submission. Leftist ideology follows the same path, however, it is the classic tale of the scorpion and the frog. Once islam uses atheism/aclu/leftism to advance islam, they will execute leftists like they will Christians.

islam executes homosexuals, but you don't see leftists cry out about that.
islam enslaves and beats women, but you don't see the left cry about that
islam allows the rape of children, but you don't see the left cry about that.
islam executes anyone that does not bow to islam, but you don't see the left cry about that.
islam punishes education outside of their strict interpretation of everything, but you don't see the left cry about that.

Do I need to go on? And you can say all you want about "WASPS founding this country", but listen to this:

The Rothschilds were the one's who financed George Washington's army at Valley Forge. Without the backing of rich Jewish European families, Washington would not have had the ammunition, arms, food, clothing, etc. to attack and defeat the British. Food for thought when you're trying to deride our founding documents because "WASPS founded this country".

The question is, was it not generaly fair skinned Europeans that founded this country. I have never seen or heard of Muslims, Buddist or others being part of the founding fathers group. There were obviously Jews, who have mostly co-existed with Christians on a friendly basis throughout the years. Could the founding fathers ever imagined the world we live in today?

ALADOG
07-27-2012, 12:55 PM
By the way jessejordan419, I am on your side.

AUTaxMan
07-27-2012, 12:56 PM
Wrong according to who? The people who their decisions are not convenient for them?

No, people who are interested in original intent.

mrveggieman
07-27-2012, 01:00 PM
No, people who are interested in original intent.


I believe that their original intent was for everyone to be able to peacefully practice his/her chosen religion free of outside interence. Since none of them are around today to confirm if that was indeed their intent, the only avenue available to us is for the SCOTUS the make their best educated guess on the matter.

AUTaxMan
07-27-2012, 01:02 PM
I believe that their original intent was for everyone to be able to peacefully practice his/her chosen religion free of outside interence. Since none of them are around today to confirm if that was indeed their intent, the only avenue available to us is for the SCOTUS the make their best educated guess on the matter.

No, there are many of their writings from which original intent may be learned.

JustAlex
07-27-2012, 01:06 PM
HAHAHA....what a perfect thread to show how much christians want to badly impose their beliefs on everyone else.

Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE should understand that "Separation of Church and State" is to protect both sides.


Man, and people wonder why the U.S is becoming more and more Atheist!

32% and GROWING (Americans who are now either Atheist or have no religion).

AUTaxMan
07-27-2012, 01:07 PM
HAHAHA....what a perfect thread to show how much christians want to badly impose their beliefs on everyone else.

Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE should understand that "Separation of Church and State" is to protect both sides.


Man, and people wonder why the U.S is becoming more and more Atheist!

32% and GROWING (Americans who are now either Atheist or have no religion).


QUOTE me the part in this thread where Christians want to impose their beliefs on others.

pghin08
07-27-2012, 01:10 PM
HAHAHA....what a perfect thread to show how much christians want to badly impose their beliefs on everyone else.

Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE should understand that "Separation of Church and State" is to protect both sides.


Man, and people wonder why the U.S is becoming more and more Atheist!

32% and GROWING (Americans who are now either Atheist or have no religion).


I think your atheist numbers are off:

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports/

AUTaxMan
07-27-2012, 01:20 PM
I think your atheist numbers are off:

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports/


Hey, 32% is just as good as any other arbitrary "fact" he throws out there.

JustAlex
07-27-2012, 01:20 PM
islam executes homosexuals, but you don't see leftists cry out about that.

Christians in Uganda HAVE killed and beaten Homosexuals.

islam enslaves and beats women, but you don't see the left cry about that

Many Christians have abused women here in the U.S and around the world....and, the bible clearly says that men are above women.

islam allows the rape of children, but you don't see the left cry about that.

Catholics...YES, they are Christians.....have raped so many little boys that even Sandusky is shocked.

islam executes anyone that does not bow to islam, but you don't see the left cry about that.

This is probably the only one that Christians don't do.....anymore, they used to be masters of killing anyone that didn't bow down to their beliefs.

islam punishes education outside of their strict interpretation of everything, but you don't see the left cry about that.

Haha, the irony of this one is too great....


Responses in bold.

JustAlex
07-27-2012, 01:22 PM
I think your atheist numbers are off:

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports/
NOPE....I'm RIGHT!

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/03/28/gallup-32-of-americans-are-nonreligious/

I said "Americans who are now either Atheist or have no religion"

pghin08
07-27-2012, 01:34 PM
NOPE....I'm RIGHT!

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/03/28/gallup-32-of-americans-are-nonreligious/

I said atheists AND nonreligious.


Gallup and Pew have very different numbers. Frankly, I trust the Pew data. The question in the Gallup poll is super vague. If those people were to actually be directly asked if they were athiests or nontheists, I think that 32% would be way less.

ALADOG
07-27-2012, 01:37 PM
JustAlex said

http://www.sportscardforum.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by jessejordan419http://www.sportscardforum.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.sportscardforum.com/showthread.php?p=11889171#post11889171)islam executes homosexuals, but you don't see leftists cry out about that.

Christians in Uganda HAVE killed and beaten Homosexuals.

islam enslaves and beats women, but you don't see the left cry about that

Many Christians have abused women here in the U.S and around the world....and, the bible clearly says that men are above women.

islam allows the rape of children, but you don't see the left cry about that.

Catholics...YES, they are Christians.....have raped so many little boys that even Sandusky is shocked.

islam executes anyone that does not bow to islam, but you don't see the left cry about that.

This is probably the only one that Christians don't do.....anymore, they used to be masters of killing anyone that didn't bow down to their beliefs.

islam punishes education outside of their strict interpretation of everything, but you don't see the left cry about that.

Haha, the irony of this one is too great....
Responses in bold.

You misrepresent the actions of the STATE SANCTIONED ISLAM religion as compared to misguided INDIVIDUALS claiming to tbe Christian. I have never seen any mainstream Protestant, Catholic or Jewish groups give any of these acts by individuals merit whereas Muslim run states do these things in the name of Islam and the State.

JustAlex
07-27-2012, 01:43 PM
Gallup and Pew have very different numbers. Frankly, I trust the Pew data. The question in the Gallup poll is super vague. If those people were to actually be directly asked if they were athiests or nontheists, I think that 32% would be way less.
I believe the number is very real.

There are MANY atheists that are "In the closet" about their non-belief.....BTW, have you heard of the "Clergy Project":

http://clergyproject.org/

Trust me, I'm VERY INVOLVED in the Atheist community, we are growing....


You misrepresent the actions of the STATE SANCTIONED ISLAM religion as compared to misguided INDIVIDUALS claiming to tbe Christian. I have never seen any mainstream Protestant, Catholic or Jewish groups give any of these acts by individuals merit whereas Muslim run states do these things in the name of Islam and the State.
I've seen more christians than I can count be very "un-christian like".

BTW, how do you think a "Christian run nation" would look like?

IMO....exactly like a Muslim run nation.

ALADOG
07-27-2012, 01:46 PM
I believe the number is very real.

There are MANY atheists that are "In the closet" about their non-belief.....BTW, have you heard of the "Clergy Project":

http://clergyproject.org/

Trust me, I'm VERY INVOLVED in the Atheist community, we are growing....


I've seen more christians than I can count be very "un-christian like".

BTW, how do you think a "Christian run nation" would look like?

IMO....exactly like a Muslim run nation.

I see you have no answer, so you respond with what if. We are using facts i nthis discussion, not what if.

Wickabee
07-27-2012, 01:53 PM
This thread does smell of "We're supposed to be a Christian country"

JustAlex
07-27-2012, 01:55 PM
I see you have no answer, so you respond with what if. We are using facts i nthis discussion, not what if.
What's there to answer?

No, there doesn't exists a structured "christian nation" the way muslim nations exists....but so what?

They're both filled with people who do terrible things in the name of their religion, if you think christianity is any better than islam, then you should probably answer why the catholic church continues to protect pedophiles.

And please don't tell me that Protestant and Catholics are different....they are BOTH christian groups.

ALADOG
07-27-2012, 02:03 PM
What's there to answer?

No, there doesn't exists a structured "christian nation" the way muslim nations exists....but so what?

They're both filled with people who do terrible things in the name of their religion, if you think christianity is any better than islam, then you should probably answer why the catholic church continues to protect pedophiles.

And please don't tell me that Protestant and Catholics are different....they are BOTH christian groups.

Still no answer, just the same old drivel. When you have no valid response, you resort to what ifs and misrepresentations. Try as you may to justify your position, you have failed. Whne you have a valid comparison, please provide it.

jessejordan419
07-27-2012, 02:12 PM
Using that same logic you cannot prohibit a budhist who is a legal US citizen from placing a statue of Buddah infront of his state, local or federal gov't office nor can any prohibit his legal right to practice buddhism in the united states.


Red Herring! More Deflection!! Tactics of the losing side of the debate!

jessejordan419
07-27-2012, 02:14 PM
I believe that their original intent was for everyone to be able to peacefully practice his/her chosen religion free of outside interence. Since none of them are around today to confirm if that was indeed their intent, the only avenue available to us is for the SCOTUS the make their best educated guess on the matter.

And who is on SCOTUS? The last 2 members have no judicial experience whatsoever!! And when the Supreme Court goes AGAINST the Constitution, they are in direct violation of our Constitution. Until Judges are appointed who will UPHOLD the Constitution as they SWORE TO DO, this problem with continue.

JustAlex
07-27-2012, 02:18 PM
You know what, I'm going to dissect your OP to show you just how ridiculous all of this really is....



I have read somewhere that the actual discussion about religion when our country was founded was about keeping any Chistian DENOMINATION from being established as a State religion, not the exclusion of religion 100% as we now interpret. There apparently are writings (letters to and from the founding fathers) to support this.

Dude, have you EVER heard of the Treaty of Tripoli????

PLEASE look into it....especially this part....

"Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

And the other question; please point out the Muslims, Hindus, Buddists, followers of Confucious and followers of other world religions that were founding fathers. I am aware of several that were deists, but none of the above mentioned.

LOL, really?

Unbelievable you would even bring this up.....You're doing such a big disservice to other christians on this board that actually try to be moderate.

So is the old statement that we are the melting pot true or a farce? It appears that the founders of our country were primarily WASPS with similar backgrounds.

Yeah, our founders were so big on religion that they said NOTHING about God in the constitution and everything on religion was meant to have a secular government.

mrveggieman
07-27-2012, 02:18 PM
Red Herring! More Deflection!! Tactics of the losing side of the debate!

Nevermind you just told us how you feel. Per you if you are not a white male christian you are a second class citizen. Another fine graduate of rush limbaugh university. I'm done with it. :sign0202:

jessejordan419
07-27-2012, 02:23 PM
The question is, was it not generaly fair skinned Europeans that founded this country. I have never seen or heard of Muslims, Buddist or others being part of the founding fathers group. There were obviously Jews, who have mostly co-existed with Christians on a friendly basis throughout the years. Could the founding fathers ever imagined the world we live in today?


The Founding Fathers made this country Free to every religion. They have made public statements that said things to the extent of, if this country becomes immoral, this system of government will be corrupted and fail the people. This is exactly what is happening, and has happened for the last 100 years or more. They did intend for the people to be Righteous, because unlawful or unrighteous people cannot be free to govern themselves under this system. That is why we have the problems of today. Not because other religions(besides islam) are in America. It is because American's have been corrupted and immoral, and cannot govern themselves freely.

The people need to become Righteous, and the only example of Righteousness is Jesus the Christ: Yeshua Hamaschia, Son of Elohim, ABBA Father.

And by the way, read about Jefferson's war against radical islam. The war against the pirates of the barbary coast. We have been at war with islam for a thousand years. the forefather's of islam were at war with God and His Chosen People for thousands of years before that.

Isaac's illegitimate half brother ishmael was not legitimate in God's eyes, therefore, he was not to inherit The Promised Land. That is why islam is it war with Israel, and any ally of Israel, the US today; and basically any people who do not submit to islam. This all goes back to ishmael, and furthermore, back to the sons of Cain. Tubal-Cain was the first to implement weapons of iron, and to create war.

jessejordan419
07-27-2012, 02:25 PM
HAHAHA....what a perfect thread to show how much christians want to badly impose their beliefs on everyone else.

Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE should understand that "Separation of Church and State" is to protect both sides.


Man, and people wonder why the U.S is becoming more and more Atheist!

32% and GROWING (Americans who are now either Atheist or have no religion).


It is unwise to throw around false statistics, especially with no source.

Wickabee
07-27-2012, 02:27 PM
Red Herring! More Deflection!! Tactics of the losing side of the debate!

Actually he made a very good argument. It is you who is providing the red herring, the deflection, the tactics of the losing side of a debate.

Give him a real response or politely bow out if you have nothing to say.

Rockman
07-27-2012, 02:28 PM
Because islam is tyranny. islam actually means, submission. Leftist ideology follows the same path, however, it is the classic tale of the scorpion and the frog. Once islam uses atheism/aclu/leftism to advance islam, they will execute leftists like they will Christians.

islam executes homosexuals, but you don't see leftists cry out about that.
islam enslaves and beats women, but you don't see the left cry about that
islam allows the rape of children, but you don't see the left cry about that.
islam executes anyone that does not bow to islam, but you don't see the left cry about that.
islam punishes education outside of their strict interpretation of everything, but you don't see the left cry about that.


Can we please stop with this sort of rhetoric. America isn't now, nor ever will be taken over by Islam and Sharia law will never become American law. If you really want to, go ahead and spout whatever tin-foil hat conspiracy narrative you want, it'll be wrong and you'll look and sound stupid doing it.

ALADOG
07-27-2012, 02:33 PM
You know what, I'm going to dissect your OP to show you just how ridiculous all of this really is....

Again you attempt to answer with irrelavent and infomation not related to the discussion.

1 Treaties have zero to do with personal correspondence between the founding fathers

2 As you have no answer, your repsonse is LOL. no answer by you

3 Again you answer with irrelavent information about the constitution not the relevant question at hand, the lack of real diversity in our founding fathers.

You should take a reading comprehension class and/or learn to focus on discussing the position posed, not runnig off on a tangent.

mrveggieman
07-27-2012, 02:35 PM
The Founding Fathers made this country Free to every religion. They have made public statements that said things to the extent of, if this country becomes immoral, this system of government will be corrupted and fail the people. This is exactly what is happening, and has happened for the last 100 years or more. They did intend for the people to be Righteous, because unlawful or unrighteous people cannot be free to govern themselves under this system. That is why we have the problems of today. Not because other religions(besides islam) are in America. It is because American's have been corrupted and immoral, and cannot govern themselves freely.

The people need to become Righteous, and the only example of Righteousness is Jesus the Christ: Yeshua Hamaschia, Son of Elohim, ABBA Father.

And by the way, read about Jefferson's war against radical islam. The war against the pirates of the barbary coast. We have been at war with islam for a thousand years. the forefather's of islam were at war with God and His Chosen People for thousands of years before that.

Isaac's illegitimate half brother ishmael was not legitimate in God's eyes, therefore, he was not to inherit The Promised Land. That is why islam is it war with Israel, and any ally of Israel, the US today; and basically any people who do not submit to islam. This all goes back to ishmael, and furthermore, back to the sons of Cain. Tubal-Cain was the first to implement weapons of iron, and to create war.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRL5lyYUQoZlsZkt76jbHD_2I4Pjr7YN s_9qGZQ8jBnRK-_aXyD0Q

jessejordan419
07-27-2012, 02:38 PM
islam executes homosexuals, but you don't see leftists cry out about that.

Christians in Uganda HAVE killed and beaten Homosexuals.
We do not live in Uganda. Show me one example of an African country, with an African leader, who has led his people to prosper. There is none, so any comparison to Africa is baseless.



islam enslaves and beats women, but you don't see the left cry about that

Many Christians have abused women here in the U.S and around the world....and, the bible clearly says that men are above women.

Once again, a red herring deflection. Show me ONE instance of Priests, Pastors, or Ministers that CONDONE the beating of women. There are none in Christianity in America. Do you want present examples of imams all over the Middle East, and probably some in America, that condone this? Their own law; sharia law; condones this. Show me one Christian law that says the same. I will tell you this: Jesus said to love your wife as He loves the Church(by the way, the Church is not a building, it is all Christians).


islam allows the rape of children, but you don't see the left cry about that.

Catholics...YES, they are Christians.....have raped so many little boys that even Sandusky is shocked.

Catholicism is NOT Christianity. I would have to start a whole thread to show you examples of why it is not. That was the reason for Martin Luther's revolt AGAINST Catholicism, once people were allowed to read the Bible for Themselves, with the advent of the printing press, and the KING JAMES BIBLE. But I'm sure you already knew that. Furthermore, Catholic priests are NOT allowed to marry, which is why they are perverted. The Bible says, "The Marriage Bed cannot be defiled." It was never God's intent for Priests of God to be celibate. But once again, nice try.


islam executes anyone that does not bow to islam, but you don't see the left cry about that.

This is probably the only one that Christians don't do.....anymore, they used to be masters of killing anyone that didn't bow down to their beliefs.

Once again, a Red Herring! You are not speaking of Christianity, you are speaking of the Catholic Inquisition, has nothing to do with Christians.



islam punishes education outside of their strict interpretation of everything, but you don't see the left cry about that.

Haha, the irony of this one is too great....

More deflection with no argument. If you cannot list an argument, I cannot refute it.


My responses in Red

jessejordan419
07-27-2012, 02:46 PM
Can we please stop with this sort of rhetoric. America isn't now, nor ever will be taken over by Islam and Sharia law will never become American law. If you really want to, go ahead and spout whatever tin-foil hat conspiracy narrative you want, it'll be wrong and you'll look and sound stupid doing it.



You are ignorant of the present actions of the judicial system inside America right now. sharia law HAS BEEN cited in over 50 cases already, as the base for the ruling.

You only profess your own ignorance by showing that you are not educated in this matter.

http://yourdaddy.net/2011/06/01/sharia-law-cited-used-and-awarded-in-23-court-case-across-america/


This is nearly a year old, more cases have cited sharia law since then.

mrveggieman
07-27-2012, 02:52 PM
Can we start voting people off of P&R?

jessejordan419
07-27-2012, 02:53 PM
I believe the number is very real.

There are MANY atheists that are "In the closet" about their non-belief.....BTW, have you heard of the "Clergy Project":

http://clergyproject.org/

Trust me, I'm VERY INVOLVED in the Atheist community, we are growing....


I've seen more christians than I can count be very "un-christian like".

BTW, how do you think a "Christian run nation" would look like?

IMO....exactly like a Muslim run nation.


atheism is growing because the Church is Falling Away, and MANY False Prophets come in the name of Jesus. As He said, "In that day, many will say, Lord Lord, we did this or that in your name. And I will say, be gone workers of iniquity, I NEVER KNEW YOU." This is the state of the Church in the lead up to the Tribulation.

Christians are not your example. Jesus is Christianities ONLY example. Christians are supposed to be the Salt of the Earth, and the Light of the World. However, when Ministers shirk their responsibility to preach the WHOLE TRUTH, the Falling Away will happen. I left the Church over 12 years ago because I did not feel the Holy Spirit there. I never heard preaching against sin, I never heard anything at all accept broad generalizations that make people feel good.

Right preaching will convict your heart, and encourage you to follow Christ in a more Righteous way.

JustAlex
07-27-2012, 02:55 PM
It is unwise to throw around false statistics, especially with no source.
I'm not sure how you missed it but here it is again:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendl...-nonreligious/ (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/03/28/gallup-32-of-americans-are-nonreligious/)

Yeah buddy.....32% according to Gallop are NON-Religious in the U.S....


Again you attempt to answer with irrelavent and infomation not related to the discussion.

1 Treaties have zero to do with personal correspondence between the founding fathers

2 As you have no answer, your repsonse is LOL. no answer by you

3 Again you answer with irrelavent information about the constitution not the relevant question at hand, the lack of real diversity in our founding fathers.

You should take a reading comprehension class and/or learn to focus on discussing the position posed, not runnig off on a tangent.
This will probably be the last response I do to you, because I feel like you're not reading anything and you're just sticking to your ridiculous notions that have ZERO evidence.

The Treaty of Tripoli was signed by JOHN ADAMS who was President at the time and guess what else....he was one of our founding fathers!

While most of our founding fathers were indeed christian they also believed in a SECULAR government and the SCOTUS agrees with that realization.

Seriously bro, read up on this, you'll learn a thing or two.

theonedru
07-27-2012, 02:57 PM
People do realize that when this constitution was written you know that any term like "all men" or "we the people" or anything to that effect excluded minorities and women as they were not viewed as peoples.... as such what is really so great about it all.

Wickabee
07-27-2012, 02:58 PM
You know Jesse, you accuse everyone of "red herrings" and "deflection" but you're the absolute worst offender.

I don't know how you think that acting as a false-prophet zealot has anything to do with "truth" but you're nowhere near. I fact, as far as "The Great Liar" goes, I think you need to rethink who you're really serving, because it sure isn't God.

jessejordan419
07-27-2012, 03:01 PM
I have read somewhere that the actual discussion about religion when our country was founded was about keeping any Chistian DENOMINATION from being established as a State religion, not the exclusion of religion 100% as we now interpret. There apparently are writings (letters to and from the founding fathers) to support this.

Dude, have you EVER heard of the Treaty of Tripoli????

PLEASE look into it....especially this part....

"Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims],—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Muslim] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

And the other question; please point out the Muslims, Hindus, Buddists, followers of Confucious and followers of other world religions that were founding fathers. I am aware of several that were deists, but none of the above mentioned.

LOL, really?

Unbelievable you would even bring this up.....You're doing such a big disservice to other christians on this board that actually try to be moderate.

So is the old statement that we are the melting pot true or a farce? It appears that the founders of our country were primarily WASPS with similar backgrounds.

Yeah, our founders were so big on religion that they said NOTHING about God in the constitution and everything on religion was meant to have a secular government..


John Adams was one of the worst Presidents ever. He may have had a vital role in founding our country, but he had a hapless Presidency. This was also not signed by the Founders, but by the Senators of the day. Remember, The Founders didn't think the country would last 30 years. The evidence was already starting to mount with this Treaty.

I would have to start multiple threads to show you that the Founders did indeed, found this country on Christian principles, and many have several quotes to the same.

By the way, read the Declaration of Independence, it came FIRST......we are endowed BY OUR CREATOR.......and so on and so on. You choose to cherry pick documents which have nothing to do with our founding. The Treaty of Tripoli is America's first attempt at APPEASEMENT.

pghin08
07-27-2012, 03:02 PM
You are ignorant of the present actions of the judicial system inside America right now. sharia law HAS BEEN cited in over 50 cases already, as the base for the ruling.

You only profess your own ignorance by showing that you are not educated in this matter.

http://yourdaddy.net/2011/06/01/sharia-law-cited-used-and-awarded-in-23-court-case-across-america/


This is nearly a year old, more cases have cited sharia law since then.

So we're now getting our news from a site LITERALLY called "yourdaddy.net", whose tagline is "Does Barack Obama Represent the EndGame for America: YourDaddy thinks so." And by the way, that study was done by the "Center for Security Policy" a right-wing neocon group who once said that they were in favor of eschewing all Constitutional prohibitions in regards to Presidential terms, and just make George W. Bush President for life.

duwal
07-27-2012, 03:05 PM
Can we start voting people off of P&R?


well he will at least (or should according to the rules if the mods decide to go by the sites guidelines) be suspended for personal attacks and inciting arguments. I mean in one swoop he said Rockman was ignorant and not educated. On a different post he talked about Obama's America being black mobs all over america beating whites

Wickabee
07-27-2012, 03:07 PM
well he will at least (or should according to the rules if the mods decide to go by the sites guidelines) be suspended for personal attacks and inciting arguments. I mean in one swoop he said Rockman was ignorant and not educated. On a different post he talked about Obama's America being black mobs all over america beating whites

In another thread I'm pretty sure he tried to use "eh" as a slur of sorts referring to the fact I'm Canadian.

ALADOG
07-27-2012, 03:10 PM
I'm not sure how you missed it but here it is again:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendl...-nonreligious/ (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/03/28/gallup-32-of-americans-are-nonreligious/)

Yeah buddy.....32% according to Gallop are NON-Religious in the U.S....


This will probably be the last response I do to you, because I feel like you're not reading anything and you're just sticking to your ridiculous notions that have ZERO evidence.

The Treaty of Tripoli was signed by JOHN ADAMS who was President at the time and guess what else....he was one of our founding fathers!

While most of our founding fathers were indeed christian they also believed in a SECULAR government and the SCOTUS agrees with that realization.

Seriously bro, read up on this, you'll learn a thing or two.

It is time to stop beating my head against the wall as you have no intention of discussing the matter at hand. You have diligently studied the liberal's handbook and refuse to discuus anythig where you have no legitimate point to add.

habsheaven
07-27-2012, 03:12 PM
And in another he insulted my intelligence and accused me of lieing and being a communist. Kurt cleaned up my response but his insults remain. He's quite the Christian, I must say.

pghin08
07-27-2012, 03:15 PM
Truthfully, P&R has gotten so polarized that were I to take out the posts that question people's intelligence, there wouldn't be any posts/threads left.

jessejordan419
07-27-2012, 03:18 PM
Nevermind you just told us how you feel. Per you if you are not a white male christian you are a second class citizen. Another fine graduate of rush limbaugh university. I'm done with it. :sign0202:

You're done because you are a quitter, and you have no argument. All you can do is lay false accusations.

As a matter of fact, I only partially ascribe to the thoughts of Rush Limbaugh, and usually, he is part of the problem. But you dish out baseless claims because you are not interested in debating the issue. All you want to do is accuse others and run because you have no argument, no facts, no intelligence that I can see, and when concrete facts and evidence are laid before you.....you quit.

Wickabee
07-27-2012, 03:18 PM
Truthfully, P&R has gotten so polarized that were I to take out the posts that question people's intelligence, there wouldn't be any posts/threads left.

I question the intelligence of that post.

pghin08
07-27-2012, 03:21 PM
I question the intelligence of that post.

Lol, from time to time, being the P&R manager is harder than my actual job.


Edit: Wickabee and Habs, I'm going through a presentation at work entitled "The Case for Canada, and there's a stat in here that says Canada is the most educated country in the world. Kudos!"

JustAlex
07-27-2012, 03:23 PM
OK, all of this is just straight up comical at this point....

Wickabee
07-27-2012, 03:24 PM
Lol, from time to time, being the P&R manager is harder than my actual job.


Edit: Wickabee and Habs, I'm going through a presentation at work entitled "The Case for Canada, and there's a stat in here that says Canada is the most educated country in the world. Kudos!"

Well, it was mostly the two of us *blush*

jessejordan419
07-27-2012, 03:27 PM
I'm not sure how you missed it but here it is again:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendl...-nonreligious/ (http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/03/28/gallup-32-of-americans-are-nonreligious/)

Yeah buddy.....32% according to Gallop are NON-Religious in the U.S....


This will probably be the last response I do to you, because I feel like you're not reading anything and you're just sticking to your ridiculous notions that have ZERO evidence.

The Treaty of Tripoli was signed by JOHN ADAMS who was President at the time and guess what else....he was one of our founding fathers!

While most of our founding fathers were indeed christian they also believed in a SECULAR government and the SCOTUS agrees with that realization.

Seriously bro, read up on this, you'll learn a thing or two.

You are quoting a poll with no significance whatsoever. The poll could easily be skewed in My favor. However, you link the poll to a dissection on an atheist website. I will not read the interpretation of a poll on an atheist skewed website. If you want to link to the actual poll itself, be my guest. I won't be forced to read propaganda of any kind. Show me the actual source.

pghin08
07-27-2012, 03:28 PM
You are quoting a poll with no significance whatsoever. The poll could easily be skewed in My favor. However, you link the poll to a dissection on an atheist website. I will not read the interpretation of a poll on an atheist skewed website. If you want to link to the actual poll itself, be my guest. I won't be forced to read propaganda of any kind. Show me the actual source.

So an atheist website is not a credible enough source for you to use, yet a right wing site who in it's tagline says that Barack Obama will be the downfall of America is A-Ok, right?

Wickabee
07-27-2012, 03:33 PM
You are quoting a poll with no significance whatsoever. The poll could easily be skewed in My favor. However, you link the poll to a dissection on an atheist website. I will not read the interpretation of a poll on an atheist skewed website. If you want to link to the actual poll itself, be my guest. I won't be forced to read propaganda of any kind. Show me the actual source.

I think if anything is in your favour, it's likely skewed.

JustAlex
07-27-2012, 03:47 PM
You are quoting a poll with no significance whatsoever. The poll could easily be skewed in My favor. However, you link the poll to a dissection on an atheist website. I will not read the interpretation of a poll on an atheist skewed website. If you want to link to the actual poll itself, be my guest. I won't be forced to read propaganda of any kind. Show me the actual source.
Um, if you notice on that website they clearly post a link to gallup showing the results of that poll, but if you must have it directly, here you go:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/153479/Mississippi-Religious-State.aspx

Also, the poll IS skewed on your favor.....40% of Americans still identify themselves as "Very religious", while another 28% identify themselves as "Moderately religious".


BTW, I consider this poll a better indicative then asking "are you an atheist".....many Americans will NOT admit they are atheist because that term has been VILIFIED by religious people.


However, identifying yourself as "Non-religious" is a lot easier to admit.

pghin08
07-27-2012, 03:51 PM
Um, if you notice on that website they clearly post a link to gallup showing the results of that poll, but if you must have it directly, here you go:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/153479/Mississippi-Religious-State.aspx

Also, the poll IS skewed on your favor.....40% of Americans still identify themselves as "Very religious", while another 28% identify themselves as "Moderately religious".


BTW, I consider this poll a better indicative then asking "are you an atheist".....many Americans will NOT admit they are atheist because that term has been VILIFIED by religious people.


However, identifying yourself as "Non-religious" is a lot easier to admit.

Eh, I dunno. Most atheists I know have no problem calling themselves such. I think there's a significant difference between being non-religious and being an atheist. I fall under the non-religious category, but I'm far from an atheist. I believe in the existence of deities, I just don't think that any organized religion has it right.

AUTaxMan
07-27-2012, 03:55 PM
Eh, I dunno. Most atheists I know have no problem calling themselves such. I think there's a significant difference between being non-religious and being an atheist. I fall under the non-religious category, but I'm far from an atheist. I believe in the existence of deities, I just don't think that any organized religion has it right.

The problem with polls is that you can largely achieve the statistics you seek by manipulating the question or the answer choices.

pghin08
07-27-2012, 03:56 PM
The problem with polls is that you can largely achieve the statistics you seek by manipulating the question or the answer choices.

Agreed.

jessejordan419
07-27-2012, 03:58 PM
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRL5lyYUQoZlsZkt76jbHD_2I4Pjr7YN s_9qGZQ8jBnRK-_aXyD0Q


Thank you for once again proving my point. You would rather attack than debate the facts at hand. This is classic deflection by the loser of an argument or debate. This is why obama will lose. He can only attack because he has lost every single argument. You are employing the tactics of a loser.

JustAlex
07-27-2012, 04:01 PM
Eh, I dunno. Most atheists I know have no problem calling themselves such. I think there's a significant difference between being non-religious and being an atheist. I fall under the non-religious category, but I'm far from an atheist. I believe in the existence of deities, I just don't think that any organized religion has it right.
Definitely agree with you.

Look at me, I have zero problems calling myself an atheist, and OK, I know this is an anonymous forum, but my friends and family know I'm an atheist too.

Here's the thing though.....once you "come out" as an atheist, it's a lot easier, you don't feel trapped anymore, and yeah "we" do use the term "atheist in the closet" because it's very true, hopefully you checked out that link I showed you from the 'clergy project'. If there are currently pastors all across this nation that are really atheists imagine how many regular "Christians" who won't "come out" due to fear of losing their jobs or that their family will disapprove or any other loved one.

Also, I would definitely agree that Non-religious doesn't equal atheist.....but I would argue that the MAIN problem atheists have in this country is with organized religion and not the belief in God(s).

Religion just has too much influence on people...

mrveggieman
07-27-2012, 04:02 PM
Thank you for once again proving my point. You would rather attack than debate the facts at hand. This is classic deflection by the loser of an argument or debate. This is why obama will lose. He can only attack because he has lost every single argument. You are employing the tactics of a loser.

You have no facts. All you do is spew right wing anti-obama boderline racist fanatical garbage. Even the conservatives don't want to touch the trash that you post on here.

jessejordan419
07-27-2012, 04:02 PM
So an atheist website is not a credible enough source for you to use, yet a right wing site who in it's tagline says that Barack Obama will be the downfall of America is A-Ok, right?

Kindly refer me to what you are referring to. And by the way, obama is the enemy of America. The communists ALWAYS eat their own. Look at Stalin, Lenin, Mao, and Castro. Once they have absolute power, they eliminate their own competition. They will enslave you as well as me. You may think you are a winner, but you have been deceived.

Advertisements do not equate ideology. If you are referring to the David Barton article, he is about Truth. The website itself may have "right-wing" ads as you call them, but the Truth is in the pudding. David Barton has not "skewed" anything to one side or the other. He is about finding the Truth about our Founding, something BOTH SIDES do not want to see happen......


But I'm sure you already knew that....

mrveggieman
07-27-2012, 04:04 PM
How many people on here would rather have gorillawaits than some of our other forum posters?

pghin08
07-27-2012, 04:07 PM
Kindly refer me to what you are referring to. And by the way, obama is the enemy of America. The communists ALWAYS eat their own. Look at Stalin, Lenin, Mao, and Castro. Once they have absolute power, they eliminate their own competition. They will enslave you as well as me. You may think you are a winner, but you have been deceived.

Advertisements do not equate ideology. If you are referring to the David Barton article, he is about Truth. The website itself may have "right-wing" ads as you call them, but the Truth is in the pudding. David Barton has not "skewed" anything to one side or the other. He is about finding the Truth about our Founding, something BOTH SIDES do not want to see happen......


But I'm sure you already knew that....

Here's the post/link that you put up that I was referring to:

"You are ignorant of the present actions of the judicial system inside America right now. sharia law HAS BEEN cited in over 50 cases already, as the base for the ruling.

You only profess your own ignorance by showing that you are not educated in this matter.

http://yourdaddy.net/2011/06/01/shar...cross-america/ (http://yourdaddy.net/2011/06/01/sharia-law-cited-used-and-awarded-in-23-court-case-across-america/)


This is nearly a year old, more cases have cited sharia law since then."

By the way, Obama will never have absolute power. We live in a country that devised a system against one man ever being an ultimate ruler. I would argue that he is, in fact, a relatively weak president.

pghin08
07-27-2012, 04:07 PM
Be nice, Veggie. You know as well as I that everyone is welcome to an opinion.

Wickabee
07-27-2012, 04:07 PM
Kindly refer me to what you are referring to. And by the way, obama is the enemy of America. The communists ALWAYS eat their own. Look at Stalin, Lenin, Mao, and Castro. Once they have absolute power, they eliminate their own competition. They will enslave you as well as me. You may think you are a winner, but you have been deceived.

Advertisements do not equate ideology. If you are referring to the David Barton article, he is about Truth. The website itself may have "right-wing" ads as you call them, but the Truth is in the pudding. David Barton has not "skewed" anything to one side or the other. He is about finding the Truth about our Founding, something BOTH SIDES do not want to see happen......


But I'm sure you already knew that....

That has nothing to do with communist and everything to do with dictator. If any President works his way to dictator it sure as heck won't be a Democrat.

jessejordan419
07-27-2012, 04:11 PM
Um, if you notice on that website they clearly post a link to gallup showing the results of that poll, but if you must have it directly, here you go:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/153479/Mississippi-Religious-State.aspx

Also, the poll IS skewed on your favor.....40% of Americans still identify themselves as "Very religious", while another 28% identify themselves as "Moderately religious".


BTW, I consider this poll a better indicative then asking "are you an atheist".....many Americans will NOT admit they are atheist because that term has been VILIFIED by religious people.


However, identifying yourself as "Non-religious" is a lot easier to admit.


I asked you to kindly refer me to the original poll because I will not read through an atheist website. Than you for linking the actual poll. I would agree to your point the poll is skewed in my favor. But the questions are leading in EITHER direction. As you assert many Americans won't admit to being atheist, I assert that many Americans may say they are religious because they feel guilt for not attending services or following a doctrine. Furthermore, the poll does not ask "which religion".

They also use cold calling techniques. How many Truthful answers do you think they will get? And who, by the way, does not immediately hang up when someone "telemarkets" or "cold calls"? How desperate for attention are these people who answer these polls? American's are desperate for any attention. Here is the admission by Gallup themselves that says the poll can be biased or in error:



Interviews are conducted with respondents on landline telephones and cellular phones, with interviews conducted in Spanish for respondents who are primarily Spanish-speaking. Each sample includes a minimum quota of 400 cell phone respondents and 600 landline respondents per 1,000 national adults, with additional minimum quotas among landline respondents by region. Landline telephone numbers are chosen at random among listed telephone numbers. Cell phone numbers are selected using random-digit-dial methods. Landline respondents are chosen at random within each household on the basis of which member had the most recent birthday.

Samples are weighted by gender, age, race, Hispanic ethnicity, education, region, adults in the household, and phone status (cell phone only/landline only/both, cell phone mostly, and having an unlisted landline number). Demographic weighting targets are based on the March 2011 Current Population Survey figures for the aged 18 and older non-institutionalized population living in U.S. telephone households. All reported margins of sampling error include the computed design effects for weighting and sample design.

In addition to sampling error, question wording and practical difficulties in conducting surveys can introduce error or bias into the findings of public opinion polls.



These are the problems with polls. 78% of all people know that. (That was a Simpson's reference). This is why you won't find me citing any polls. I will cite hard data, not "grey matter".

jessejordan419
07-27-2012, 04:18 PM
You have no facts. All you do is spew right wing anti-obama boderline racist fanatical garbage. Even the conservatives don't want to touch the trash that you post on here.

Show me one racist thing I have said. Please. I beg you. You have no idea who I am or what I believe. I am actually looking out for your best interests, and the interests of EVERYONE in this country. I can't help if you are trapped in darkness and refuse to see the light. I am shining a light into the darkness, and I know I am doing the right thing, because I am watching the darkness squirm in discomfort. I know I am on the right path, simply by your post above.

If a fireman told you the way out of a burning building, would you listen? I am trying to show people the way out of this burning country, but you would rather pick sides, make false accusations, and outright lie.

I will say this again. Show me your evidence. Show me anything you have to debate your side besides red herrings, deflecting, inserting words into my mouth, ascribing beliefs to me that I do not have, and outright lying.



What conservatives are you referring to? Where is your evidence? I have already received help proving my argument, and I tear apart every single argument that "your people" have thrown at me. Why would they need to come to my assisstance if I am winning the argument for them? Maybe they don't want to be "thrown to the wolves" by hateful people. I can take all the slings and arrows you can muster. And I have not stooped to your level of name calling, lying, deflecting, etc.


So please, Show Me Your Argument.

Wickabee
07-27-2012, 04:21 PM
I asked you to kindly refer me to the original poll because I will not read through an atheist website.

Remind me again why anyone should bother going to your sites if you won't bother to go to theirs?

Just how "chosen" do you think you are?

shrewsbury
07-27-2012, 04:24 PM
wickabee, really a republican would be a dictator before a democrat?

(trying to change the subject)

jessejordan419
07-27-2012, 04:28 PM
That has nothing to do with communist and everything to do with dictator. If any President works his way to dictator it sure as heck won't be a Democrat.


hahahahahahahaha, your naivete is laughable, bwahahahahahahaha!!! You still ascribe to the "Republican and Democrat" notion! You fail to see they are both two sides to the same coin. Bush put in place the necessary powers that obama uses today. And before that, Clinton put in the financial measures to bring the economy to it's knees by removing the Glass Spiegal Act, or however you pronounce it. And don't give me the classic Democrat line of, "Clinton had a surplus". That's b.s. and you know it. The Republican led house wrote the spending bills that Clinton signed. But you already knew that. The Republicans also gave us NAFTA, which is another bain. But I'm sure you already knew that.

As soon as you realize that both sides are working for the same "puppet masters", you will have a much easier time. Your blood pressure may even go down, because you won't hate the other side, simply because they're the other side.


But I digress. Back to communism. You can give me the same commie spiel about how "true communism" has never been acheived. I will tell you it can never be achieved because people are basically evil. It takes a dictator to eliminate opposition to himself by any means necessary. He then appoints "oligarchs" to "run" communism based on his dictates. There never has, or will be, true communism. How do you think they bring about communism anyway? By bloodshead.

Russia killed 20 million of her own people
China killed 48 million of her own people
"El Chey" or whatever you want to call him, slaughtered thousands of innocent teachers, scientists, business owners, and their families to install Castro.
Pol Pot killed millions.

This is the face of communism. They MUST eliminate people who think for themselves or stand up for themselves, because nobody with 2 cents would ever put up with what communism forces on people. And if you think a democrat cannot do it, you are deceiving yourself.

pghin08
07-27-2012, 04:34 PM
hahahahahahahaha, your naivete is laughable, bwahahahahahahaha!!! You still ascribe to the "Republican and Democrat" notion! You fail to see they are both two sides to the same coin. Bush put in place the necessary powers that obama uses today. And before that, Clinton put in the financial measures to bring the economy to it's knees by removing the Glass Spiegal Act, or however you pronounce it. And don't give me the classic Democrat line of, "Clinton had a surplus". That's b.s. and you know it. The Republican led house wrote the spending bills that Clinton signed. But you already knew that. The Republicans also gave us NAFTA, which is another bain. But I'm sure you already knew that.

As soon as you realize that both sides are working for the same "puppet masters", you will have a much easier time. Your blood pressure may even go down, because you won't hate the other side, simply because they're the other side.


But I digress. Back to communism. You can give me the same commie spiel about how "true communism" has never been acheived. I will tell you it can never be achieved because people are basically evil. It takes a dictator to eliminate opposition to himself by any means necessary. He then appoints "oligarchs" to "run" communism based on his dictates. There never has, or will be, true communism. How do you think they bring about communism anyway? By bloodshead.

Russia killed 20 million of her own people
China killed 48 million of her own people
"El Chey" or whatever you want to call him, slaughtered thousands of innocent teachers, scientists, business owners, and their families to install Castro.
Pol Pot killed millions.

This is the face of communism. They MUST eliminate people who think for themselves or stand up for themselves, because nobody with 2 cents would ever put up with what communism forces on people. And if you think a democrat cannot do it, you are deceiving yourself.

If neither the Democrats in power or the Republicans in power are the "puppet masters", then who are they?

JustAlex
07-27-2012, 04:39 PM
You still ascribe to the "Republican and Democrat" notion! You fail to see they are both two sides to the same coin.
WOW, you are capable of saying something correctly.

Wickabee
07-27-2012, 04:42 PM
hahahahahahahaha, your naivete is laughable, bwahahahahahahaha!!! You still ascribe to the "Republican and Democrat" notion! You fail to see they are both two sides to the same coin. Bush put in place the necessary powers that obama uses today. And before that, Clinton put in the financial measures to bring the economy to it's knees by removing the Glass Spiegal Act, or however you pronounce it. And don't give me the classic Democrat line of, "Clinton had a surplus". That's b.s. and you know it. The Republican led house wrote the spending bills that Clinton signed. But you already knew that. The Republicans also gave us NAFTA, which is another bain. But I'm sure you already knew that.

As soon as you realize that both sides are working for the same "puppet masters", you will have a much easier time. Your blood pressure may even go down, because you won't hate the other side, simply because they're the other side.


But I digress. Back to communism. You can give me the same commie spiel about how "true communism" has never been acheived. I will tell you it can never be achieved because people are basically evil. It takes a dictator to eliminate opposition to himself by any means necessary. He then appoints "oligarchs" to "run" communism based on his dictates. There never has, or will be, true communism. How do you think they bring about communism anyway? By bloodshead.

Russia killed 20 million of her own people
China killed 48 million of her own people
"El Chey" or whatever you want to call him, slaughtered thousands of innocent teachers, scientists, business owners, and their families to install Castro.
Pol Pot killed millions.

This is the face of communism. They MUST eliminate people who think for themselves or stand up for themselves, because nobody with 2 cents would ever put up with what communism forces on people. And if you think a democrat cannot do it, you are deceiving yourself.
Another assumption that is incorrect. I'm going to have to ask you not to ever respond to my posts for the simple reason that you don't seem to think any facts are necessary to make a claim. If that changes then we can talk.

One last thing, Wasn't Glass- Spiegal Act repealed in '99?

Please, anyone but Jesse answer.

Wickabee
07-27-2012, 04:43 PM
wickabee, really a republican would be a dictator before a democrat?

(trying to change the subject)

If only because Republicans are one solid group while Democrats are a collective of different factions.

AUTaxMan
07-27-2012, 04:49 PM
By the way, Obama will never have absolute power. We live in a country that devised a system against one man ever being an ultimate ruler. I would argue that he is, in fact, a relatively weak president.

I disagree. His administration has promulgated more regulations than any other presidency. Can't get the DREAM Act passed? I'll just sign an executive order. Can't pass cap and trade? I'll just authorize the EPA to adopt regulations that do the same thing. Defense of marriage act? I'll just not enforce it. No headway on immigration legislation? I'll just stop deporting them. Obama may be a weak man, but he is a strong President. He has exerted more unchecked power than any President in my lifetime.

JustAlex
07-27-2012, 04:57 PM
I disagree. His administration has promulgated more regulations than any other presidency. Can't get the DREAM Act passed? I'll just sign an executive order. Can't pass cap and trade? I'll just authorize the EPA to adopt regulations that do the same thing. Defense of marriage act? I'll just not enforce it. No headway on immigration legislation? I'll just stop deporting them. Obama may be a weak man, but he is a strong President. He has exerted more unchecked power than any President in my lifetime.
Your memory might not be so good.....Obama has NOTHING on Bush II.

AUTaxMan
07-27-2012, 04:58 PM
Your memory might not be so good.....Obama has NOTHING on Bush II.

Please elaborate.

JustAlex
07-27-2012, 05:02 PM
Please elaborate.
Bush's administration literally went wild in their 8 years, from illegal WARS to illegal wiretapping to torturing POWs and everything in between.

But you're saying that Obama has had more "unchecked powers" than any other president.....LOL!

AUTaxMan
07-27-2012, 05:08 PM
Bush's administration literally went wild in their 8 years, from illegal WARS to illegal wiretapping to torturing POWs and everything in between.

But you're saying that Obama has had more "unchecked powers" than any other president.....LOL!

All of those are related to the war on terror. Whether they were unjustified or illegal is for another discussion, but these are not blatant end-runs around congressional constitutional powers to enact legislation by fiat like the current President has done, nor are they blatant disregard for the law, which is supposed to be upheld by the executive.

duwal
07-27-2012, 05:09 PM
Be nice, Veggie. You know as well as I that everyone is welcome to an opinion.


opinion is one thing but how much leniency will moderators give to some that is calling other members on here uneducated, loser, etc. Please let us know because if that is now perfectly acceptable without any type of suspension as if so I might not fear putting in the same language to members on here in order to incite arguments

mrveggieman
07-27-2012, 05:24 PM
I'm about to go home. I may get back on SCF this eve/weekend but it will be only for trades and sportstalk. I had more than I can deal with of this for a few days.

shrewsbury
07-27-2012, 05:37 PM
duwal, please point out what you are talking about. i try to read each post, but sometimes there are too many to read all. I do not have an issue in letting you guys voice your opinion and am more open to allow threads to go astray but no name calling.

let me know so we can straighten this out.

I work a job, teach, and have a wife and a life, so all my time cannot be spent reading every single post, but we try to keep things civil here and do a great job considering we are dwelling in politics and religion, the two most things that can get people in a frenzy.

jessejordan419
07-27-2012, 05:53 PM
If neither the Democrats in power or the Republicans in power are the "puppet masters", then who are they?

At the top, Lucifer. Below him is a group of families that extends to Ancient Rome. They come from the Canaanites. God ordered Israel to wipe out every man, woman, and child of Canaan, and even destroy their herds. However, Israel did not, they only killed the men. Then Israel intermarried, and took on some of their Pagan Gods. This is why God allowed Israel to be conquered time and time again. He gave Israel Judges to bring Israel into repentance, but they always went back to the pagan gods. Eventually, after Israel split, Northern Israel was carried off by the Assyrians, and only Judah remained.

These people are sun-god worshipers, and their religion dates back to Ancient Eastern Mysticism. They follow the Kaballah, which is not Jewish at all. In fact, it is not even from the Hebrews. It is doctrines of demons.

They infected the Catholic Church long ago, and incorporated sun-god worshiping beliefs into the Catholic Church. After the fall of Rome in the what, 400's or 500's, they made their way to Venice. They were already the richest and most powerful families of Rome, and they turned Venice into the merchant capital of the world. They had money, but needed world-wide power.

They eventually married Royalty throughout Europe throughout the Dark Ages. This gave them the power they needed. Eventually, they established a headquarters, so to speak, in The City of London. I'm not talking about London. I mean The City Of London, an untouchable district inside London. It's kind of like the Vatican.

These people are Jesuits. They take a blood oath, which is satanic. Blood is Holy to ABBA Father, and these people take a satanic oath. Normal Catholic Priests may or may not have any idea of this. A normal Catholic Priest takes an oath of Poverty, an oath of celibacy, and another oath, I don't remember. Jesuits take a blood oath that supersedes these oaths.

The Pope is the Black Pope, installed by the Venetian Black Nobility. Here are their satanic symbols:
-the Twisted Cross
-the Seashells on the robe
-the number "8", and a pie with 8 slices hangs over many catholic cathedrals.
-the Pyramid or Triangle
-the letter "V"
-and of course, The Sun

These Jesuits are in most major corporations, every political party of America, Britian, and the rest of the Western World, most notably, Italy, France, and England. They have members of the military in America and other countries. They know each other by their symbols.

The Central Banks are how they rule the economies of the world. Every President from Andrew Jackson to Kennedy who went against these Central Bankers was either assassinated, or almost assassinated. Lincoln was assassinated because he was against a Central Bank. Kennedy issued Silver Certificates from the US Treasury, and recalled Federal Reserve Notes, which are NOT issued by our government. After his assassination, the Silver Certificates were recalled, and Federal Reserve Notes were issued.

Ron Paul has been the most vocal opponent of the Federal Reserve System. Until recently, he was labeled a "lunatic" by the Main Stream Media, and thus sidelined. However, over the last 2 election cycles, he has gained too strong a following. I believe they threatened his family, and that is why he is not as vocal. Look at recent photos compared to photos from February. He has aged Considerably! He had to run as a Republican to play the game, but he is Libertarian at heart.

The Democrat Party and GOP are both run by Jesuits. Many Tea Party people have been elected, but they will be either corrupted, blackmailed, threatened, or worse.

The CIA is their military wing. What is the symbol of the CIA? A giant Sun. Look at the symbols of major corporations. Any that have a form of a sun, triangle, "V", or 8 is part of their system. They own Canadian trucking, and they run the Catholic Church. Not every church, and not every Mason even knows of this. You have to rise to the 33rd degree of Masonry to even be considered by these people. They have front organazations like the Builderburgs, the Tri-Lateral Commission, and the Council on Foreign Relations. This is how they plan things in the open, or in the sort-of-open. These are the "doers" for the "puppet masters". They are the "Fall Guys" if you will.

jessejordan419
07-27-2012, 06:10 PM
Another assumption that is incorrect. I'm going to have to ask you not to ever respond to my posts for the simple reason that you don't seem to think any facts are necessary to make a claim. If that changes then we can talk.

One last thing, Wasn't Glass- Spiegal Act repealed in '99?

Please, anyone but Jesse answer.


Exactly my point, who was President in 1999? It wasn't Bush. I misspelled, it was the:
Glass–Steagall Act

This act was enacted in 1933 after the Great Depression. The Great Depression was caused because Banks could be Banks, and Securities Dealers. This means they could lend money to buy the stocks they sold. This is a MAJOR conflict of interest. It is much more complicated, but I will let you read about it for yourself.

After the Glass Steagall Act, Banks had to be Banks, and Securities Dealers had to be Securities Dealers. This seperated a conflict of interest. Clinton repealed this in 1999, and now look what happened. The major banks gobbled up all the smaller banks, sold faulty loans that they knew people could not repay(because the government(Democrats) forced them to in the Fair Housing Act), so they packaged these loans together and sold them to investors, knowing they would be worthless when people couldn't pay the notes.

There is also severe market manipulation in the Silver market and Gold market by JP Morgan, and it is cheerleaded by the Fed. The Stock Market is also severely manipulated, and would be worthless if the Fed didn't print more money to sustain the economy. This is called Quantitative Easing or QE for short. They've already done QE1 and QE2, and the Fed is meeting in August instead of September, because they will have no choice but to print again with QE3. They tried Operation Twist, but it will only leave US Taxpayers with worthless bonds because the Short Term Maturity Treasury Bonds the Fed traded to Central Banks for Long Term Maturity Bonds will mature, and the owners will not roll them into new bonds as the usual practice is. They will want their cash, and this will produce sever bank runs and another depression.

But you probably don't want to listen to fact now do you. You would rather listen to someone tell you the Economy is 'DOING GREAT'.

shrewsbury
07-27-2012, 06:13 PM
jesse without getting into all that you just posted, can you explain your use of ABBA Father? Don't think I am unaware of where this came from, but I want to get your idea of its use.

AUTaxMan
07-27-2012, 06:31 PM
The Stock Market is also severely manipulated, and would be worthless if the Fed didn't print more money to sustain the economy. This is called Quantitative Easing or QE for short. They've already done QE1 and QE2, and the Fed is meeting in August instead of September, because they will have no choice but to print again with QE3. They tried Operation Twist, but it will only leave US Taxpayers with worthless bonds because the Short Term Maturity Treasury Bonds the Fed traded to Central Banks for Long Term Maturity Bonds will mature, and the owners will not roll them into new bonds as the usual practice is. They will want their cash, and this will produce sever bank runs and another depression.

I don't know about another depression, but I agree with the other stuff here.

Wickabee
07-27-2012, 06:47 PM
Exactly my point, who was President in 1999? It wasn't Bush. I misspelled, it was the:
Glass–Steagall Act

This act was enacted in 1933 after the Great Depression. The Great Depression was caused because Banks could be Banks, and Securities Dealers. This means they could lend money to buy the stocks they sold. This is a MAJOR conflict of interest. It is much more complicated, but I will let you read about it for yourself.

After the Glass Steagall Act, Banks had to be Banks, and Securities Dealers had to be Securities Dealers. This seperated a conflict of interest. Clinton repealed this in 1999, and now look what happened. The major banks gobbled up all the smaller banks, sold faulty loans that they knew people could not repay(because the government(Democrats) forced them to in the Fair Housing Act), so they packaged these loans together and sold them to investors, knowing they would be worthless when people couldn't pay the notes.

There is also severe market manipulation in the Silver market and Gold market by JP Morgan, and it is cheerleaded by the Fed. The Stock Market is also severely manipulated, and would be worthless if the Fed didn't print more money to sustain the economy. This is called Quantitative Easing or QE for short. They've already done QE1 and QE2, and the Fed is meeting in August instead of September, because they will have no choice but to print again with QE3. They tried Operation Twist, but it will only leave US Taxpayers with worthless bonds because the Short Term Maturity Treasury Bonds the Fed traded to Central Banks for Long Term Maturity Bonds will mature, and the owners will not roll them into new bonds as the usual practice is. They will want their cash, and this will produce sever bank runs and another depression.

But you probably don't want to listen to fact now do you. You would rather listen to someone tell you the Economy is 'DOING GREAT'.

That last sentence is priceless. You tell me I don't want to listen to fact and then make a baseless claim of something you can't possibly know anything about. That being what I want to hear and what I think of the economy. You assume and then you lie, all while calling everyone out for the same things. You cry "RED HERRING" whenever someone makes a point you have no argument against. You sir are a hypocrite and a liar. I have absolutely no problem listening to facts. What I have a problem with is listening to your presumptuous and racist remarks.

jessejordan419
07-27-2012, 07:03 PM
If only because Republicans are one solid group while Democrats are a collective of different factions.

How are the Republicans NOT a collective of different factions?

-GOP Establishment (Romney, Christie, and their cheerleaders on Fox News like Bill Cristal, Charles Krauthammer, O'Reily, Hannity, and others I just can't remember).
-Tea Party - even this has many different factions. In Texas, GOP types have hijacked the Tea Party. Dick Army started the Texas Tea Party Express, and it is a joke. Ted Cruz purports to be a "Tea Party Candidate", but his wife is a Builderburger, and I think sat on either the Tri-Lateral Commission, or the Council on Foreign Relations. So he is a Manchurian Candidate.
-Libertarians - Ron Paul types. These people cannot run as a 3rd party because the requirements to get on ballots are setup to favor Republicans and Democrats. These people MUST run as a Republican to have any chance at all.

I don't hold this naivete against you, because you obviously wouldn't know this being a Democrat. Now you know.

jessejordan419
07-27-2012, 07:11 PM
jesse without getting into all that you just posted, can you explain your use of ABBA Father? Don't think I am unaware of where this came from, but I want to get your idea of its use.

He has many names. I use ABBA Father, because there is a Scripture, if I recall correctly, where if the Children of Israel would cry out to ABBA Father in repentance, and ask Him to heal their land, He will hear their prayers and answer them.

I don't use Jehovah, because that may not be the proper spelling or pronunciation. I also do not want to be confused with Jehovah Witnesses, which is a false religion. I can get into that in a whole thread by itself.

I use ABBA Father to denote that He is The Father, and not just a father. It's my way of adding a "punch" if you will. It also differentiates between The Father and The Son better, at least in my mind.

Here are just a few of His names that I can recall off the top of my head, forgive me for the spelling:
-ABBA Father
-Elohim
-Jehovah
-Jehovah Jaira
-Jehova Nissi
-I AM

And there are many more. Each name has a specific meaning. Maybe I'll start a thread with that. Thank you very much for the idea.

habsheaven
07-27-2012, 07:19 PM
He has many names. I use ABBA Father, because there is a Scripture, if I recall correctly, where if the Children of Israel would cry out to ABBA Father in repentance, and ask Him to heal their land, He will hear their prayers and answer them.

I don't use Jehovah, because that may not be the proper spelling or pronunciation. I also do not want to be confused with Jehovah Witnesses, which is a false religion. I can get into that in a whole thread by itself.

I use ABBA Father to denote that He is The Father, and not just a father. It's my way of adding a "punch" if you will. It also differentiates between The Father and The Son better, at least in my mind.

Here are just a few of His names that I can recall off the top of my head, forgive me for the spelling:
-ABBA Father
-Elohim
-Jehovah
-Jehovah Jaira
-Jehova Nissi
-I AM

And there are many more. Each name has a specific meaning. Maybe I'll start a thread with that. Thank you very much for the idea.

Newsflash ABBA Father wannabe, ALL religion is FALSE. Try and PROVE that statement wrong. What's that??? You can't??? I guess I am speaking the TRUTH then.

shrewsbury
07-27-2012, 07:19 PM
alright, I have had enough and will be closing this thread now, this is going nowhere good. jesse if you want to answer my question please start a new thread.

wickabee you could have left out one sentence and jesse you could have left out your last sentence. If you want to discuss highly controversial ideas, you need to keep your personal remarks of others out of it and stick to your opinions about you and only you and the facts of what you are debating. I am not picking on you to, wickabee you know I enjoy nearly all your posting, jesse you are new here and obviously coming out pretty strong so expect questions. We are all allowed to post our opinions, this is the rules we agreed to follow to become a member here. There will be no more personal attacks or insults, not even hidden ones.

Lets all move on