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habsheaven
07-30-2012, 08:02 PM
... an opinion piece that conveys my thoughts on this story. I wonder if the religious are brave enough to read it to the end.


Understanding Noah's Flood


Just about every kid in the United States has heard the story of Noah by the age of five. It's a pretty simple story. And kids love animals, so this story is especially interesting. If you ask a kid to recite the story to you, it goes something like this:
Once upon a time there was a man named Noah. God tells Noah to build a big boat. The animals get on the boat two by two. There's a big flood. And everyone lives happily ever after.

Lots of kids have a toy, a puzzle, a poster or a little storybook that illustrates the whole thing.
Of course these posters and puzzles, and the story in most kids' heads, leave out one little detail. They gloss over the total extermination on all other life on earth. Billions of animals and millions of humans are senselessly murdered in the flood. Anything and everything that is alive on earth perishes unless it is on the boat. That is a whole lot of death and destruction, and most kids don't need to hear about that. Far too gruesome, especially if we were to illustrate all those floating, bloated bodies. But since it is God doing the murdering, and since we leave out all the death, then somehow it is OK.
The next time you see a child playing with a Noah's Ark Play Set or puzzle, say to the parent, "Ah yes, the uplifting story where God massacres every living thing on the planet, including millions of men and women and every single living child. How charming." See what the parent's response is. In many cases the response will be silence, because the parent has never thought about it.
The Story
Noah's flood is described in the Bible's book of Genesis, chapters 6 through 9. Here are two quotes from these chapters that touch on the high points:
So make yourself an ark of cypress wood; make rooms in it and coat it with pitch inside and out. This is how you are to build it: The ark is to be 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high. Make a roof for it and finish the ark to within 18 inches of the top. Put a door in the side of the ark and make lower, middle and upper decks. I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth will perish. But I will establish my covenant with you, and you will enter the ark-you and your sons and your wife and your sons' wives with you. You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them." Noah did everything just as God commanded him.

And:
On that very day Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth, together with his wife and the wives of his three sons, entered the ark. They had with them every wild animal according to its kind, all livestock according to their kinds, every creature that moves along the ground according to its kind and every bird according to its kind, everything with wings. Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life in them came to Noah and entered the ark. The animals going in were male and female of every living thing, as God had commanded Noah. Then the Lord shut him in.
For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth. The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water. They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet. Every living thing that moved on the earth perished-birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind. Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. Every living thing on the face of the earth was wiped out; men and animals and the creatures that move along the ground and the birds of the air were wiped from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those with him in the ark. The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days.

Does this story make sense? Did this really happen? Did an omniscient God write this story, or did primitive goat herders make it up out of thin air? Let's think it through using common sense.
The first question to ask is, "When did this happen?" The Bible provides the answer. The Bible contains a genealogy for Jesus that stretches all the way from Jesus to Adam. The Bible lists ages for all the people involved, and when they were born. Therefore, since we know when Jesus was born, it is easy to track back to the date of Noah's flood. The great deluge happened in 2348 BCE. That's a very recent event in human history -- only 4,350 or so years ago.
What this means is that the planet was wiped clean just 4,350 years ago, and then the ark came to rest on dry ground. Out of the ark came eight people (Noah, his wife, his three sons and their respective wives) along with pairs of animals representing every species that we see on earth today.
The Questions
Have you ever thought about that? Just 4,350 years ago, there were only eight people alive on planet earth. For any intelligent person, this raises quite a few questions, with this one being the most important:
Where did all of the different races and cultures that we see today come from? From those eight people came the Chinese, the Africans, the Europeans, the Indians, the American Indians, the Aztecs, the Aborigines, the Vikings, the Eskimos, the Greeks, the Romans and so on. Apparently they all came from these eight people.

Starting from scratch in 2348 BCE, how could all of those races and cultures arise? It is, of course, impossible for a variety of reasons, but let's gloss over it for now.
As you continue thinking about it, the questions keep coming. For example, how did Noah build the boat? How could four men and four women find, harvest, season, transport, cut, shape, assemble and seal all of the trees needed for a ship 450 feet long and 75 feet wide? That is a huge ship. For comparison, the Mayflower (which brought the Pilgrims from England to America) was only about 95 feet long, 25 feet wide and displaced 180 tons. [ref (http://seagifts.com/seagifts/mayflower.html)] The Mayflower was a big boat able to hold over 100 people, but it was a pipsqueak compared to the ark.
Using the simplest multiplication, the ark would encompass about 14 Mayflowers, and would therefore weigh at least 5 million pounds. However, because the ark is so much larger, it would have to be far stronger than the Mayflower, making it far heavier. The very largest ships built at the height of the wooden shipbuilding era (the late 1800s) had a maximum keel length of about 250 feet, and the ark is nearly twice that big. This was an amazing vessel. And it was all built by four men and four women.
It is impossible to imagine that eight people could build a boat that big. It is also impossible to imagine a 450 foot long wooden vessel. But let's gloss over that.
Perhaps God helped? But if God were going to help, he would simply manifest a boat from thin air. There is no need for Noah to build it as described in the Bible.
What about the animals, and all of their food? There are about 1.75 million known species of plants and animals (mammals, birds, insects, etc.) crawling around on the planet today, so they must have all been on the ark. There may be more than 10 million species total -- scientists do not really know because we have come nowhere close to cataloging all of the species found on earth. [ref (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3667300.stm)] We don't think about this because we are not biologists, but there are a lot more species on the planet today than most people realize. There are, for example, 20 differences species of vultures. Just vultures. There are 23 species of crocodilians. There are 40,000 species of spiders. And so on. And they all have highly specialized diets. Imagine 40,000 little spider cages, and imagine feeding all 40,000 pairs of spiders. Along with all 160,000 species of moths. And all 17,500 species of butterflies. [ref (http://www.si.edu/resource/faq/nmnh/buginfo/moths.htm)] And all 350,000 species of beetles. Etc.
Is the boat big enough to hold millions of species? No. And it is definitely not big enough to hold all of the food they need for hundreds of days. For example, one panda bear needs about 30 pounds of fresh bamboo every day -- not something readily available on a boat unless you have a large bamboo grove handy. Similarly, koala bears need fresh eucalyptus leaves. Walruses eat fish and lots of them. Lions eat antelope. Vultures eat carrion. One elephant eats something like 100 pounds of food per day. And so on.
All of that food also means a whole lot of manure and urine. Imagine mucking out a barn that holds millions of animals. Could eight people do it? Certainly not.
Then there is the commute. How did all of the animals found on the far corners of the planet today commute to the Middle East to board the ark? For example, how did pairs of kangaroos, koala bears, etc. commute thousands of miles (not to mention the treacherous ocean crossing) from Australia to the ark? How did walruses and polar bears and penguins make it? What about all of the specialized species in the South American rain forests? In South America, there are 130 species of legionary ants (forget all the other kinds of ants) that we know of. How did they get to Noah? Then they also had to commute back. And they all had to eat their highly specialized foods along the way.
Then there is the DNA. There is no evidence in the DNA record that every animal species on the planet came from a single breeding pair that started reproducing 4,350 years ago. The amount of inbreeding in every species (along with the human species) would be tremendous.
And what about the plants? All of them would be killed too by many months underwater. It would take awhile for things like eucalyptus trees and bamboo groves to grow back, assuming their seeds survived the floods.
The problem with the water
Let's assume that all of these problems can be glossed over. The big problem that remains is the water. The Bible states quite plainly that:
"[The waters] rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet."

No ambiguity here. And there is no reason for God to lie about it. Mt. Everest was 20 feet underwater.
The peak of Mount Everest rises about 29,000 feet above sea level -- nearly five and a half miles high. That means that the earth was covered, in its entirety, with water 5.5 miles deep. This creates several important problems:

Where did all this water (approximately 10 times more water than there is on earth today) come from, and where did it all go?
If you assume that God magically imported the water from somewhere and then took it away again, you still have a problem with the fish. If God imported 5.5 miles of fresh water, the fresh water would have killed all of the salt water fish species.
Then there is the immense water pressure. Five miles of water creates more than 12,000 PSI of water pressure at sea level.
Finally there's the problem with Egypt and other ancient cultures. The Great Pyramid, for example, was built between 2600 BCE and 2500 BCE. Noah's flood occurred 200 years after that. It is obvious that the Great Pyramid never was flooded underneath five miles of water.
And so on...

To handle the fish, the ark would need immense fish tanks. If you have ever been to a big public aquarium, or Sea World, or even a pet store, you know that: a) there are a lot of different kinds of fish, and b) fish tanks need a lot of sophisticated filtration equipment. How, exactly, did Noah build all the tanks, and power all the filters? Not to mention how the fish got there -- did they walk onto the ark two by two? Or did they swim through the air?
Let's say you are willing to suspend all your disbelief around all these myriad problems with the story. Let's assume that the flood actually did happen. If you are willing to go that far into the realm of the imaginary, then you end up asking a different set of questions:

Why would God be displeased with the way humans turned out, to the extent that he would need to exterminate every living plant and animal on the planet? If God is all-knowing, then he knew exactly what he was doing when he created Adam and Eve (see Understanding Original Sin (http://www.sportscardforum.com/original-sin.htm)). If God is perfect, he would have no choice but to create humans right the first time.
Let's say that our perfect, all-knowing God made a mistake and was displeased with people for whatever reason, and he needed to exterminate them. That's impossible, but let's say it happened. Why not simply kill the people, and leave the rest of the plants and animals alone? God shows in the book of Exodus that it is incredibly easy for him to selectively kill humans instantly and in massive numbers. For example, God kills only the first born children of only the Egyptians in Exodus chapter 11. Why not kill off all the evil humans in exactly the same way, rather than wiping the entire planet clean?
Let's say God decided that he wanted to wipe the planet clean, and that he wanted to use a worldwide flood for whatever reason. Then why did Noah need to build the boat? Why wouldn't God create a boat out of carbon nanotubes or transparent aluminum, with all the specialized compartments and tanks that the boat would need for all of the animals, fish and food? The nice side effect of these advanced materials is that Noah's Ark would still be here today for all to see with our own eyes.


Explaining the flood
A religious person, hearing about all of these myriad problems with the story of Noah in the Bible, might try to engage you in a conversation like this:
Chris: There is no problem with the story of the flood in the Bible. The Bible was translated incorrectly. For example, in the Hebrew the word for world, 'erets', could also be translated as 'land' rather than 'world.' So you see, the Bible is actually correct. The flood only covered 'the land,' not the whole world.
Norm: Why didn't an all-knowing God choose a word that is unambiguous?
Chris: Well, in Hebrew there is not an unambiguous word to use.
Normal person: Didn't God create all the languages of the earth at the Tower of Babel? Why didn't a perfect God create languages that are unambiguous and solve the problem of word choice in that way?
Chris: It was not his will to do so.
Norm: Then why didn't God inspire the translator and make sure that he got the translation right?
Chris: That would violate the translator's free will.
Norm: Then didn't God rather drastically violate the free will of the men who wrote the Bible?
Chris: No. You see, the men who wrote the Bible were different because...
Norm: Forget it. Let's just assume that you are right. When God chose the word "erets" in the Hebrew he meant the "whole land" rather than the "whole earth." That's fine. Mount Ararat, where the ark is said in the Bible to have come to rest, is over 16,000 feet tall -- nearly three miles. It, according to the Bible, was 20 feet under water. We all know that water spreads out -- it seeks its own level. So if you dump enough water on one country to cover Mount Ararat, then that means the whole world is covered with three miles of water, and we are right back where we started.
Chris: No, that's not right. You see, God is all-powerful, and he is able to constrain the water to a single land. So only one small part of the earth was covered three miles deep.
Norm: What, you are saying that God erected a gigantic wall around the Middle East -- he created the world's biggest above-ground swimming pool three miles deep?
Chris: No, he did not actually have to build a wall...
Norm: Why is there no evidence for a 3-mile deep flood in the middle east 4,350 years ago? Chris: You are wrong...

Admit it. You have heard conversations like this and they are utterly ridiculous. The Christian is making things up out of thin air. The Bible, allegedly, was written by the all-knowing, all-powerful creator of the universe. Why in the world can't such a being get a story straight in the Bible?
If an all-knowing and all-powerful God wrote the Bible, then why are we having to create so many excuses for what he wrote, and come up with so many incredibly convoluted explanations to cover the myriad problems in his stories? Why didn't God simply write the truth to begin with? Any conversation about Noah's ark quickly becomes ridiculous like this because the whole story is ridiculous from beginning to end. Noah's flood, quite simple, never happened.
The meaning of the story
Any intelligent person also sees something far more sinister in the Noah story. If you accept that God wrote the Bible, and if you accept that he put the story of Noah in the Bible for a reason, then let's focus on the central message in the story -- that God exterminated every living human being on the planet except for eight chosen people, and God exterminated all other living things except for the animal pairs on the boat. God's central message in the Noah story is total annihilation. Millions of men, women and children were massacred, along with billions of plants and animals.
Compare this behavior to Hitler. At the time of Hitler's reign, there were approximately 18 million Jewish people on the planet. Hitler killed six million of them -- roughly a third. What words do we use to describe Hitler? We use nouns like monster, demon and fiend, and we use adjectives like abominable, disgusting, repugnant, nauseating, detestable, horrible and revolting.
So why don't we apply those same nouns and adjectives to God? What God did is far worse than what Hitler did. Normal people therefore ask, "Why in the world would anyone worship a being far more horrible and monstrous than Hitler?" It makes absolutely no sense.
The real story
So let's admit it -- the story of Noah and the flood is not true. Choose whatever combination of impossibilities you like, from the food storage space on the ark, to the manure removal problem, to the commute that all the animals had to make, to the fish tank filters. An all-knowing, all-loving, prayer-answering God did not cover the earth in water 5.5 miles (or 3 miles) deep and exterminate everything. There was no ark. There was no death of every living plant and animal, followed by a resurgence from single breeding pairs of every species. 130 species of legionary ants did not swim over from South America and then swim back, nor did the kangaroos, nor did the polar bears. And so on. It did not happen. If you want to believe it that's fine, but we can safely write you off as a nut case.
What does this mean? It means that what we have here is a fanciful legend that is clearly untrue. When you look at Noah's flood, as it is described by the Bible, it is obvious that it did not happen. This is not a case where we need to bring in scientists and experts to disprove it based on little tiny details. This story is clearly and provably untrue to any intelligent person because it is absurd on the broadest, most obvious levels.
Continuing to use your common sense, what does this tell you about the Bible as a whole? Was the Bible written by a perfect and all-knowing being, or was it written by primitive goat herders? Given that the story of Noah is a fictional legend and nothing more, what it means is that the Bible -- the entire Bible -- is a collection of stories written by primitive men. God had nothing to do with it. Either God wrote the entire Bible, or he wrote none of it, because we have no way to know which parts God did and did not write.
More importantly, whether true of not, you realize that the Bible's central message about God is that God is a reprehensible monster far worse than Hitler. God ruthlessly murdered millions of men, women and children for no reason.
Christians willingly worship this monster.
What do you make of all of this? Here are two points of view for you to consider:

The Bible is the word of the Lord. Despite all of the evidence (genetic, geological, geographical, paleontological, forensic, archeological and historic) that Noah's flood and the ark never occurred, you still believe steadfastly that it did. You believe that God intentionally exterminated nearly every living thing on the planet. You openly worship this reprehensible monster.
The story of Noah is a fanciful legend. The Bible was written by men, not by God.

Which point of view makes more sense to you?

jessejordan419
07-30-2012, 08:09 PM
But indoctrinating children to the radical homosexual lifestyle is different?

By the way, the millions of people that were washed away were so vile, evil, demented, and wicked that God wished he had never created man in the first place. There was also a race of giants, the Nephilim, that were a hybrid of fallen angels and the daughters of man they impregnated. They had to be destroyed as well.

I could not make it past the first couple paragraphs, because the opiner obviously does not know the True story as told in the Bible. I will need to rectify that with a thread.

I'm headed to starbucks......

Wickabee
07-30-2012, 08:09 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but does the Bible specify 20 feet?

Didn't the foot become a unit of measurement in the middle ages?

habsheaven
07-30-2012, 08:29 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but does the Bible specify 20 feet?

Didn't the foot become a unit of measurement in the middle ages?

Pretty sure they used cubits and such. Also pretty sure the author is converting the measurements to something people of today would know. Also pretty sure you have been accusing AUTaxMan of this type of a response all day. Who cares if it is in feet or cubits.

habsheaven
07-30-2012, 08:36 PM
But indoctrinating children to the radical homosexual lifestyle is different?

Is this supposed to mean something, or is it the DEFLECTING that you keep accusing everyone else of?

By the way, the millions of people that were washed away were so vile, evil, demented, and wicked that God wished he had never created man in the first place. There was also a race of giants, the Nephilim, that were a hybrid of fallen angels and the daughters of man they impregnated. They had to be destroyed as well.

Yet, Noah and his chosen managed to live among them for 500 years? They must have been really vile and evil.

I could not make it past the first couple paragraphs, because the opiner obviously does not know the True story as told in the Bible. I will need to rectify that with a thread.

That's why I added this line;

"I wonder if the religious are brave enough to read it to the end."

It was intended specifically for you but I thought it best not to single you out. No need to start another thread. Address this one point by point. Yeah, you run off to Starbucks (another thing you accuse the rest of us of doing).

I'm headed to starbucks......

Responses in bold. I expected so much better out of you (actually not!).

duwal
07-30-2012, 08:40 PM
I could not make it past the first couple paragraphs, because the opiner obviously does not know the True story as told in the Bible.



well that sure is an extreme oxymoron

Wickabee
07-30-2012, 08:44 PM
Pretty sure they used cubits and such. Also pretty sure the author is converting the measurements to something people of today would know. Also pretty sure you have been accusing AUTaxMan of this type of a response all day. Who cares if it is in feet or cubits.

I was saying nothing of the article one way or the other. I didn't even really read it, more skimmed through. I was actually genuinely asking a question I was curious about. I had no ulterior motive and no follow up question or comment. I don't appreciate you equating this one question in this one thread (I don't really buy the whole ark story either, by the way) to the semantics game other member(s) here like to play.
In short:
Pretty sure you took that wrong. Also pretty sure you jumped to a conclusion that is anything but correct. Also pretty sure that, since I wasn't making a statement either way, you screwed this one up and took offense for absolutely no reason.

habsheaven
07-30-2012, 08:57 PM
I was saying nothing of the article one way or the other. I didn't even really read it, more skimmed through. I was actually genuinely asking a question I was curious about. I had no ulterior motive and no follow up question or comment. I don't appreciate you equating this one question in this one thread (I don't really buy the whole ark story either, by the way) to the semantics game other member(s) here like to play.
In short:
Pretty sure you took that wrong. Also pretty sure you jumped to a conclusion that is anything but correct. Also pretty sure that, since I wasn't making a statement either way, you screwed this one up and took offense for absolutely no reason.

If you say so, I will take your word for it. If you do not see that "questioning" the terminology looks a lot like trying to discredit the author, I know another member who does and would eagerly jump all over your comment in their attempt to disparage the author. Also, my jumping to conclusions may have been caused because I thought you were "staying on topic". I didn't post the thread to debate ancient measurements. lol

JustAlex
07-30-2012, 08:59 PM
Ah yes, "The Flood Story".

You know, if there is ONE story in the bible that loses all credibility to whether or not it's a "Literal book" it's this one.


Habs, you did a great job showing how this story is simply IMPOSSIBLE to be literally true.

"The Flood" is a perfect example of mythology.


In reality there was probably a local flood where it might have rained for a few days and maybe there was indeed a great loss of animals and men, but that's as far as it goes in the factual department.

Later on by word of mouth this story got bigger and bigger (Classic example of a "Big Fish" Story).....combine it with the little knowledge humans had about this earth and their beliefs in God(s) and you have this story.


Now, here's the BIGGEST problem for Christians:

A) If this story is NOT literal, then maybe the Creation story is also not literal, and if that's not literal then maybe the whole story of Jesus is also not literal (after all, Jesus died for our sins which first occurred from the "original sin" presented in the creation story in Genesis).

B) If the above is true, then Christianity is completely false and it has no reason to exist.


So....by default....

Christians MUST believe the "Flood story" no matter what, no matter how illogical and how unreasonable it might be.

habsheaven
07-30-2012, 09:05 PM
Alex, no credit goes my way. I just found this online, and would have posted the author's name if it was included.

Wickabee
07-30-2012, 09:07 PM
If you say so, I will take your word for it. If you do not see that "questioning" the terminology looks a lot like trying to discredit the author, I know another member who does and would eagerly jump all over your comment in their attempt to disparage the author. Also, my jumping to conclusions may have been caused because I thought you were "staying on topic". I didn't post the thread to debate ancient measurements. lol

Duly noted. I didn't realize I was opening a debate on ancient measurements. I simply thought I had asked a question and, were the answer "yes" or "no" I would have been equally satisfied. I didn't realize I had opened up a huge can of worms with this and I apologize. It is my fault, really. I didn't realize the question was so far off topic it could only be considered an attack. Obviously I'm trying to attack an article who's end point I agree with, for the purpose of...umm...hmm, didn't think that through I guess.

Again, so sorry.

jessejordan419
07-30-2012, 09:20 PM
But indoctrinating children to the radical homosexual lifestyle is different?

Is this supposed to mean something, or is it the DEFLECTING that you keep accusing everyone else of?

Actually, it is apt. If you notice, the first paragraph of so implies it is wrong to "indoctrinate" children of such "horrible" stories such as the story of Noah's Ark.


By the way, the millions of people that were washed away were so vile, evil, demented, and wicked that God wished he had never created man in the first place. There was also a race of giants, the Nephilim, that were a hybrid of fallen angels and the daughters of man they impregnated. They had to be destroyed as well.

Yet, Noah and his chosen managed to live among them for 500 years? They must have been really vile and evil.

They took that time to build the Ark. And if you knew the story, you would know Noah was ridiculed the entire time. Well, at least until it started to rain.......




I could not make it past the first couple paragraphs, because the opiner obviously does not know the True story as told in the Bible. I will need to rectify that with a thread.

That's why I added this line;

"I wonder if the religious are brave enough to read it to the end."


It is not "brave" to waste valuable time on an obviously slanted piece when the author is obviously ignorant as to the story of The Flood. But that was your intent. Force Christians to read such an obvious hatchet job, and then label them as "cowards" by not subjecting themselves and their valuable time to such an outright hatchet job.




It was intended specifically for you but I thought it best not to single you out. No need to start another thread. Address this one point by point. Yeah, you run off to Starbucks (another thing you accuse the rest of us of doing).

Yes, I need to run to starbucks to acquire free internet for my laptop, so that I can quickly respond to the massive wave of attacks against Christianity with Actual Scripture, not assumptions, accusations, slander, and libel.


I'm headed to starbucks......






Responses in bold. I expected so much better out of you (actually not!).



My responses in Red. Why would I care what you expect out of me?

habsheaven
07-30-2012, 10:14 PM
You are such a hypocrite. The article asks many questions. It makes many observations. None of which you are willing to answer. None of which you are willing to debate. Just as the story of Noah's Ark completely destroys the credibility of Genesis, so to does your responses in here ruin your credibility on this board.

Preach all you want in your own thread. Just proves you are running away because you have nothing credible to offer.

shrewsbury
07-31-2012, 01:15 AM
habs, just got around to this.

you know where i am going with all this.
first there were more than just two of every animal, look at verse 2 and 3

the dating of the Bible is far off, if you scooted this back to 10k or 12k bc, we would have time for re-population, and the end of the ice age.

next we will have to look at the oldest existing version of the noah story and look at how it was written, then we will have to assume it lasted unaltered for 10-12 thousand years. then we will have to relook at the story some key points are overlooked.

and as far as it being just a story, i would have to point out the tomb of the 1st emperor of china and troy, great stories, fairy tales, but now they are more than just stories.

habsheaven
07-31-2012, 08:57 AM
habs, just got around to this.

you know where i am going with all this.
first there were more than just two of every animal, look at verse 2 and 3

Okay Jay, I haven't read that version of the story (NIV). Not sure how it helps the case though. That just means that there is even more animals on this vessel that clearly is not big enough to hold them, let alone allow the crew to care for them.

the dating of the Bible is far off, if you scooted this back to 10k or 12k bc, we would have time for re-population, and the end of the ice age.

That's a bold statement, where do you come up with the calculation to "correct" the word of God?

next we will have to look at the oldest existing version of the noah story and look at how it was written, then we will have to assume it lasted unaltered for 10-12 thousand years. then we will have to relook at the story some key points are overlooked.

You are going to have to elaborate on this. Not sure what you are trying to say.

and as far as it being just a story, i would have to point out the tomb of the 1st emperor of china and troy, great stories, fairy tales, but now they are more than just stories.

I do not know those stories. Do they contain facts that we know are impossible? Or were they just unbelievable because no one could prove their existance?




Responses in bold.

shrewsbury
07-31-2012, 09:31 AM
habs,

it doesn't help my case, but shows flaws in the article above, which when flaws are introduced it is hard to have any type of accurate hypothesis.

a rabbi did the calculations, not God, so no I am not being bold at all, just logical, you are going with the 6k year old earth theory which doesn't hold much with me and most christians, nor anyone else for that matter.

all books were hand copied and we see inaccuracies from the common era, so it would not be far fetched to say this did not happen in the BCE's. God didn;t write the Bible nor has He copied it for us, we are in the human realm, and with humans comes errors.

the 1st emperor of china tombs was said to be a fable, he recreated the heavens and earth and an entire army to guard it, they found the army buried in front of the tomb, but from fear of the curse the 1st emperor put n the tomb, the chinese government refuses to open it, even in these days people still fear ancient curses.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=chinese+terracotta+warriors&hl=en&sa=X&biw=1366&bih=667&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=L0pB3IoPiudvfM:&imgrefurl=http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/archaeology/terracotta_warriors.html&docid=MiVNJxjFsZbXUM&imgurl=http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/archaeology/terracotta_clay_warriors.jpg&w=584&h=329&ei=aM8XUPjXHYWB7AHM6oHgCA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=736&vpy=141&dur=1664&hovh=168&hovw=299&tx=146&ty=90&sig=102555357834979251452&page=2&tbnh=101&tbnw=180&start=18&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:9,s:18,i:162

you should know the story of troy, believed to be greek mythology, "her beauty launched a 1000 ships"

also depending on how you interpret things there may have been others, who had the spirit, on the ark, which means more help and godly intervention.

the whole idea of carnivals eating the other animals would have to be based on the story being true, and if it is, then God played a role, in the sight of God they would not do anything of the sort.

habsheaven
07-31-2012, 10:31 AM
habs,

it doesn't help my case, but shows flaws in the article above, which when flaws are introduced it is hard to have any type of accurate hypothesis.

a rabbi did the calculations, not God, so no I am not being bold at all, just logical, you are going with the 6k year old earth theory which doesn't hold much with me and most christians, nor anyone else for that matter.

all books were hand copied and we see inaccuracies from the common era, so it would not be far fetched to say this did not happen in the BCE's. God didn;t write the Bible nor has He copied it for us, we are in the human realm, and with humans comes errors.

the 1st emperor of china tombs was said to be a fable, he recreated the heavens and earth and an entire army to guard it, they found the army buried in front of the tomb, but from fear of the curse the 1st emperor put n the tomb, the chinese government refuses to open it, even in these days people still fear ancient curses.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=chinese+terracotta+warriors&hl=en&sa=X&biw=1366&bih=667&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=L0pB3IoPiudvfM:&imgrefurl=http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/archaeology/terracotta_warriors.html&docid=MiVNJxjFsZbXUM&imgurl=http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/archaeology/terracotta_clay_warriors.jpg&w=584&h=329&ei=aM8XUPjXHYWB7AHM6oHgCA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=736&vpy=141&dur=1664&hovh=168&hovw=299&tx=146&ty=90&sig=102555357834979251452&page=2&tbnh=101&tbnw=180&start=18&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:9,s:18,i:162

you should know the story of troy, believed to be greek mythology, "her beauty launched a 1000 ships"

also depending on how you interpret things there may have been others, who had the spirit, on the ark, which means more help and godly intervention.

the whole idea of carnivals eating the other animals would have to be based on the story being true, and if it is, then God played a role, in the sight of God they would not do anything of the sort.

So you are saying the KJV of the Bible is inaccurate (flawed). I can accept that, but it begs the question; why do Christians keep perpetuatiing this version if so many of them know it to be untrue? The age of the Earth still mystifies me. How old are you implying MOST christians believe it to be? Finally, if God played a role in making ALL the logistics work. Why the heck did He even bother? As the article states, why didn't He just kill everyone (including the infants and other innocent people) like He did in other instances. He obviously had that power. Why flood the Earth and then have to perform 1000's of interventions in order to make their new existance possible? It makes absolutely no sense.

mrveggieman
07-31-2012, 11:05 AM
I just got through reading this thread, including the entire OP and I have to say it was an excellent read. Here are my impressions. I was going to mention the amount of animals but somebody already spoke of it. However if anyone is curious about the exact number it is 7 clean and 2 unclean animals. Read leviticus for more information on unclean animals. Also different cultures have stories about a great flood that wiped out the earth. It could have very well been a great flood but since we all know but most of us wont admit is the the bible the most of us read (the kjv) is only a translation and not the original word of god a lot of his original message was lost in translation. I also remember watching a doccumentary on the history channel a few years ago where they were talking about the story in exodus I believe where God killed an entire village except for those who didn't have lamb blood smeered across their front door. They actually showed how the events that were described were indeed scientifically possible. So my spin is that there may have been a flood that killed a lot of people but it probably didn't not destroy every living thing in the world and that the story of noah's ark as told in the kjv may have some truth to it more than like it was embellished during the translation.

shrewsbury
07-31-2012, 11:15 AM
habs, most christians believe the earth is billions of years old, no different than anyone else.

also we are talking about God, so what did He actually have to do? not much, He is God. and for me to say I know His reasoning would be idiotic.

veggie, yes this was the plagues of egypt, the one that killed all the first born, and the show you are speaking of was pretty good!

habsheaven
07-31-2012, 11:46 AM
I am not asking anyone to "know" His reasoning. I am asking for speculation on why He would come up with such an elaborate event that requires Him to intervene in so many ways. The author raises many points. If the explanation to all of them is "It's God, He could make it happen."; is that really good enough? Is that all christians have to claim that the story is true?

Tivo32
07-31-2012, 12:06 PM
I read through the whole article. The one thing I always fail to understand is why, when people are trying to disprove things in the Bible, they try to make ancient people's sound like total idiots. He uses the phrase "primitive goat herders" over and over again in an attempt to make it seem like these people sat around all day looking at goats. Modern civilization was built off the advances of the previous generations. Think about what these "primitive goat herders" did. Began recording history, invented written language, trade, currency, etc. I just don't understand the line of reasoning that ancient civilizations were unintelligent.

shrewsbury
07-31-2012, 12:08 PM
habs, what you asked me was
Finally, if God played a role in making ALL the logistics work. Why the heck did He even bother? this is what I nor you nor anyone else can answer, it is just as foolish to say you would know as it is to say it is fake because God comes into play, is that not what the OT is all about? without God the OT is near useless.

but for those that fall back on God did it, I agree they need to do some more thinking. there are better answers.

I am unsure if you have to believe in the story of noah to be christian, i am sure some will say you do, but I would not, because I am unsure.

If i had to speculate, I would say God decided to intervene at a different level than usual, a different approach. the fact that things were so much different back then and you have to throw in free will. so perhaps God stepped in as little as possible and allowed noah, like moses, to lead his people and to make human error.

what are the real issues of the story?

ark to small to hold all the animals? (maybe god miniaturized them or a cubit is much larger than we think)
no way to repopulate? (humans could have, so why not animals)
to weak of gene pool? people were more pure back then
too much water? water freezes and evaporates
all people died except a few chosen ones? kind of scary thought

so is the issue with the story really that people are freightened they could be wiped out by God?

mrveggieman
07-31-2012, 12:10 PM
I am not asking anyone to "know" His reasoning. I am asking for speculation on why He would come up with such an elaborate event that requires Him to intervene in so many ways. The author raises many points. If the explanation to all of them is "It's God, He could make it happen."; is that really good enough? Is that all christians have to claim that the story is true?


If the story is indeed 100% literally true as exactly told in the kjv then it could be a test of faith. But like I said I don't believe that it is so and that there was more than likely a great flood or other weather event that killed many but the story as told has too many unanswered questions.

habsheaven
07-31-2012, 12:53 PM
I read through the whole article. The one thing I always fail to understand is why, when people are trying to disprove things in the Bible, they try to make ancient people's sound like total idiots. He uses the phrase "primitive goat herders" over and over again in an attempt to make it seem like these people sat around all day looking at goats. Modern civilization was built off the advances of the previous generations. Think about what these "primitive goat herders" did. Began recording history, invented written language, trade, currency, etc. I just don't understand the line of reasoning that ancient civilizations were unintelligent.

Okay, that's a fair criticism. What about all the VALID points the author makes about all the flaws in the story?

Tivo32
07-31-2012, 01:08 PM
Okay, that's a fair criticism. What about all the VALID points the author makes about all the flaws in the story?

1.) Thank you for calling it a fair criticism. I appreciate that. :)

2.) There are a lot of valid points. I think for non-Christians and Christians alike the story of Noah is one of those sticking points on the inerrancy and validity of the Christian Bible. I don't have an answer. Do I want to believe that the way it's laid on in Scripture is right? Honesty? Yeah I do want to believe the way it's laid out there. I also know that from the origin of the Scriptures to now there have been a lot of people with power and agendas who have gotten their hands on the Bible. I believe God has preserved Scripture as well. I guess my answer is I don't know. And I hope that's an ok enough answer for you.

I think there is a whole lot more to God and the Christian life and Scripture than simply Noah's ark. And I wish people would discover that as well.

To the author's final point about God destroying all life save a small percentage, as a person who believes in God, I have to trust in the fact that at the very end of the day, there was a reason for all of it. Will that be a satisfactory answer for you? No probably not, but that's the best I can do as of today.

shrewsbury
07-31-2012, 01:15 PM
the dates being used are ones based on one rabbi doing research, so it holds little validity.
repopulation is possible.
killing all but a few is not a big deal, anyone who was innocent would get to heaven faster, so they are better off.
the earth could hold the water, the water could diminish, evaporate, freeze, or all 3.

so the only thing left is the animals, being there were no dogs or cats, and far less breeds of everything, we can get that number down somewhat. but if this is all that is left to debate, that isn't much considering everything else.

habsheaven
07-31-2012, 02:37 PM
the dates being used are ones based on one rabbi doing research, so it holds little validity.
repopulation is possible.

So all the "christian" websites that use the geneology of Adam down through Noah are incorrect? Is this the research you are referring to?

killing all but a few is not a big deal, anyone who was innocent would get to heaven faster, so they are better off.

That has to be one of the worst things I have ever seen on these boards. Never heard this rationale before. No big deal to you. Might be a big deal to the innocents that died a horrible drowning (one of the worst ways to die, btw). Can we use this rationale for Hitler? Should we thank him for speeding up their trip to the afterlife too?

the earth could hold the water, the water could diminish, evaporate, freeze, or all 3.

water over 5 miles deep covering the entire planet is going to "diminish"? That couldn't have taken too long. Evaporate? Again, would take a long, long time and be extremely hot. Freeze? Would have to get very, very cold. And after the water recedes to nowhere, how does plant life survive the weight and lack of light 5 miles of water brings with it?

so the only thing left is the animals, being there were no dogs or cats, and far less breeds of everything, we can get that number down somewhat. but if this is all that is left to debate, that isn't much considering everything else.

How many breeds is "far less"? Are you disputing the numbers offered by the author? Am I going to be told that God created 100,000's new species after the flood, including dogs and cats?



Can't wait.

shrewsbury
07-31-2012, 03:07 PM
you are the one who asked me to speculate, so don't get mad at my speculation. I was clear that I nor anyone knew.

there are plenty of websites about anything you want, does that make them all real, accurate, or true? are these the same websites that say Moses wrote the whole OT? or the NT is the word of God?

the worst? I think not, for someone who thinks death is death, sure it is horrible, but we are talking about believers in God, not people who fear death. returning home is a great thing, no matter how you get there, it is still home. and drowning is not even in the top ten worst ways to die, but still is horrible.

all kinds of plants and things live deep in the ocean, things we don't even know about. and if it is possible God made all the water come, then why is it impossible He made them leave?

I am guessing you know nothing about dogs or cats, and God didn't create anything after the flood, man did. just so we are clear, God did not create everything on earth, in fact besides the basics He created nothing.

the only facts here is there are no facts at all. this article didn;t even get the whole story right, so where are your facts? secondly you ask me to speculate why God would do something, I can't even accurately speculate what my wife would do or did, so God is a it of a stretch. but i answered anyways, with key counterpoints, only to receive this reply.

see the real issues are that the outsiders only point to things they know no one can have answers for, but if they knew the Bible they would be able to pick it apart much better.

heck i can come up with somethings that will really make you rethink the OT, without diving into anything as dramatic as the story of Noah. the weakest link is not the story of creation nor noah, there are others things that should make you think hard about the "facts" in the OT.

The fact is we are humans we will not understand God, and as we slowly put this puzzle together we will e startled by the truths contained within and without

and just so you know, Hilter mainly killed Jews not Christians, and the Jewish idea of heaven may startle you.

so glad you didn;t have to wait that long, and you have to admit I have kept God out of this as much as possible, but we are talking about God so it is hard to leave Him completely out of it.

Star_Cards
07-31-2012, 04:01 PM
I read it as a fairly immaterial part of the post. MY first reply about this post would not have been about the history of inches. Seems like a issue that would be very far down the rung of discussion in my opinion. No matter the depth the mountains were covered, the flood is said to flood the entire earth from what I understand of the story. doesn't matter the depth or what they are called.

Star_Cards
07-31-2012, 04:02 PM
I read most of the post and all seem like legitimate questions about the story. Sure the guy definitely has a ton about him, but they are all mostly valid questions about the story of noah and his ark.

Star_Cards
07-31-2012, 04:06 PM
if you want to talk about a potential indoctrination of what you call a homosexual lifestyle wouldn't that be better to discuss in another thread void of talk about noah's ark? seems like you'd post about the current topic instead. the article is more about the story and it's validity rather than the children learning the story and not being told about the death and destruction that is left behind during and after the flood.

Wickabee
07-31-2012, 04:08 PM
I read it as a fairly immaterial part of the post. MY first reply about this post would not have been about the history of inches. Seems like a issue that would be very far down the rung of discussion in my opinion. No matter the depth the mountains were covered, the flood is said to flood the entire earth from what I understand of the story. doesn't matter the depth or what they are called.

Again, I must apologize. I am sorry so many have taken my innocent question as something far more sinister. From now on, I will only ask loaded questions, like everyone else here does. I now realize that my question about feet and cubits was obviously an attack on anyone who doesn't believe the Noah story is completely true. That means I've insulted some people, MYSELF INCLUDED. I had hoped to get my question answered, but see now that I attacked so many people and was trying fervently to disprove something I MOSTLY AGREE WITH.

Again, my sincerest apologies.:rolleyes:

Jeez, I'd ask if anyone here likes pie, but that's obviously an attack on Democrats.

shrewsbury
07-31-2012, 04:26 PM
wickabee, your a cubitist!!!!!!! I knew it!!!!!

Wickabee
07-31-2012, 04:28 PM
Shhhhh...

Star_Cards
07-31-2012, 04:35 PM
I read through the whole article. The one thing I always fail to understand is why, when people are trying to disprove things in the Bible, they try to make ancient people's sound like total idiots. He uses the phrase "primitive goat herders" over and over again in an attempt to make it seem like these people sat around all day looking at goats. Modern civilization was built off the advances of the previous generations. Think about what these "primitive goat herders" did. Began recording history, invented written language, trade, currency, etc. I just don't understand the line of reasoning that ancient civilizations were unintelligent.

I agree that I didn't like his tone that he implied with the goat herders quote. Even if some believe it to be a story doesn't mean they were primitive or idiots. I understand completely where his tone of the article would be off putting. Myself I wished he would have stuck to the facts and not tried to make the little jabs like the goat herder remarks. Plus he kept using the term more than needed even if he felt it was pertinent to use at all.

shrewsbury
07-31-2012, 06:20 PM
that article could have been way better

Star_Cards
07-31-2012, 06:28 PM
Again, I must apologize. I am sorry so many have taken my innocent question as something far more sinister. From now on, I will only ask loaded questions, like everyone else here does. I now realize that my question about feet and cubits was obviously an attack on anyone who doesn't believe the Noah story is completely true. That means I've insulted some people, MYSELF INCLUDED. I had hoped to get my question answered, but see now that I attacked so many people and was trying fervently to disprove something I MOSTLY AGREE WITH.

Again, my sincerest apologies.:rolleyes:

Jeez, I'd ask if anyone here likes pie, but that's obviously an attack on Democrats.

no need to take so much offense to reactions to your questions. I just thought questioning the measurements was rather unimportant considering the many other questions and concerns that were brought up by the post. I certainly wasn't anywhere to offended. I'm not really sure why you are laying the sarcasm on so thick with your "apology" posts. First, there's no need to apologize and I wasn't looking for one. I was simply confused why not post about the meat of the thread and not something so secondary (if not even further down the line than secondary).

I'm not sure what you mean about asking loaded questions and EVERYONE only asking them. Sure that happens around here, but it's not always the case. I typically ask a question because I want to know everyone's honest opinion not because I want to trick someone or flip their answer around on them.

I never said your question was an attack or offended me and didn't mean to elude to it if my post did. It's just rather unimportant considering all of the other stuff posted to discuss. I do believe there was some answers/theories/insight posted about your question as well.

Star_Cards
07-31-2012, 06:28 PM
wickabee, your a cubitist!!!!!!! I knew it!!!!!

I'm fond of cubism.

Star_Cards
07-31-2012, 06:30 PM
that article could have been way better

i think he should have been much less degrading in areas. Plus the comparisons to hitler is pretty stale and usually shuts people down since so many use that comparison these days.

habsheaven
07-31-2012, 06:36 PM
you are the one who asked me to speculate, so don't get mad at my speculation. I was clear that I nor anyone knew.

First, I'm not mad.

there are plenty of websites about anything you want, does that make them all real, accurate, or true? are these the same websites that say Moses wrote the whole OT? or the NT is the word of God?

Okay, good enough. That geneology is wrong, your timeline is correct. I can live with that. Not sure all the posters on here that think carbon dating is bogus and think the Bible is the "word of God" will think about it, but not our problem.

the worst? I think not, for someone who thinks death is death, sure it is horrible, but we are talking about believers in God, not people who fear death. returning home is a great thing, no matter how you get there, it is still home. and drowning is not even in the top ten worst ways to die, but still is horrible.

I believe this thinking in general is what leads some parents to kill their children. I thought society frowned upon these tragedies, good to see some can see the bright side of children dying. Not going to bother asking for your list of top 10, I've heard it rates right up there.

all kinds of plants and things live deep in the ocean, things we don't even know about. and if it is possible God made all the water come, then why is it impossible He made them leave?

I'm not going to go into the biology of it all, only to say sea plants are just that, fauna designed to grow on land would not fair as well. If you want to believe otherwise, go ahead. Yes, if God brought 30,000 feet of rain. He surely could get rid of it. Hard to argue with that.

I am guessing you know nothing about dogs or cats, and God didn't create anything after the flood, man did. just so we are clear, God did not create everything on earth, in fact besides the basics He created nothing.

Perhaps you mean their origin? I can't imagine you are questioning my knowledge of today's dogs and cats. I assume they "evolved" over time from an ancestor of their wild counterparts. If you have the specific time they came around feel free to enlighten me. While your at it, you can tell me when all the other 100,000's of species evolved. I would love to know.

the only facts here is there are no facts at all. this article didn;t even get the whole story right, so where are your facts? secondly you ask me to speculate why God would do something, I can't even accurately speculate what my wife would do or did, so God is a it of a stretch. but i answered anyways, with key counterpoints, only to receive this reply.

If you have a problem with the facts in the story, correct them or post your own account like jesse did. (although his was definitely lacking on details). If you do not want to speculate (think) about the impossibilities the story presents, don't bother. It's much easier for a believer to just "let it be" apparently so do the same.

see the real issues are that the outsiders only point to things they know no one can have answers for, but if they knew the Bible they would be able to pick it apart much better.

No, we point to the things we know only have one answer and that answer is God's intervention (in other words, MAGIC).

heck i can come up with somethings that will really make you rethink the OT, without diving into anything as dramatic as the story of Noah. the weakest link is not the story of creation nor noah, there are others things that should make you think hard about the "facts" in the OT.

All the more reason, a believer should be looking for answers. Instead believers look to confuse themselves into a state of bliss.

The fact is we are humans we will not understand God, and as we slowly put this puzzle together we will e startled by the truths contained within and without

No problem speculating here apparently. The fact is we are humans and not only will we not understand Him (imagine an entity with all that power yet He can't make it possible for us to understand), we shouldn't even know what He said. Conveniently though, He told just enough people in ancient times.

and just so you know, Hilter mainly killed Jews not Christians, and the Jewish idea of heaven may startle you.

Am I to believe it is NASTY and Jews do not want to get there anytime soon? Or do they not believe in an afterlife? I will have to look it up on one of those crazy internet sites I guess.

so glad you didn;t have to wait that long, and you have to admit I have kept God out of this as much as possible, but we are talking about God so it is hard to leave Him completely out of it.

Thanks for the reply, my response is in bold.

Wickabee
07-31-2012, 06:40 PM
no need to take so much offense to reactions to your questions. I just thought questioning the measurements was rather unimportant considering the many other questions and concerns that were brought up by the post. I certainly wasn't anywhere to offended. I'm not really sure why you are laying the sarcasm on so thick with your "apology" posts. First, there's no need to apologize and I wasn't looking for one. I was simply confused why not post about the meat of the thread and not something so secondary (if not even further down the line than secondary).

I'm not sure what you mean about asking loaded questions and EVERYONE only asking them. Sure that happens around here, but it's not always the case. I typically ask a question because I want to know everyone's honest opinion not because I want to trick someone or flip their answer around on them.

I never said your question was an attack or offended me and didn't mean to elude to it if my post did. It's just rather unimportant considering all of the other stuff posted to discuss. I do believe there was some answers/theories/insight posted about your question as well.

Well, yours was not the first comment. The question came to me and I asked it. I really did not realize that asking honest questions was frowned upon to the point of all questions being seen as a deflection or some sort of tactic. I realize that's not the most important thing in this thread, but the question came up in my head. Again, deeply sorry to everyone.

The only insight I've seen is Habs telling me I'm attacking an article I mostly agree with by asking the question and you following up with (basically) "what a stupid question".

I say loaded questions are apparently the only questions that get asked here because honest questions, such as mine in this thread, are apparently not looked favourably on.

I asked a question because I saw something a little off and wanted to clarify. I was immediately accused of deflecting the issue and other such nonsense by someone who knows better, and then had someone else tell me what a stupid question it was. Apparently my wanting to know something is a sin here. Please, just let it go. I won't ask any questions anymore. If I can't ask an honest question, how can I possibly expect an honest answer.

habsheaven
07-31-2012, 06:44 PM
Apparently, you didn't notice that I speculated as to the use of feet in my initial response to you. I think you were just offended that I accused you of a practice that you had been accusing AUTaxMan of all day. Thought we had cleared it up.

Wickabee
07-31-2012, 06:53 PM
Apparently, you didn't notice that I speculated as to the use of feet in my initial response to you. I think you were just offended that I accused you of a practice that you had been accusing AUTaxMan of all day. Thought we had cleared it up.

There's a difference between asking an honest question and asking a question you already know the answer to in order to deflect and distract. AUT was distracting from the point with semantics. I read that and started wondering, "Am I wrong that feet came about in medieval England?" so I asked. You then accused me of trying to distract and deflect for the purpose of discrediting the article. That's what I took offense to. I also took slight offense to the whole "If you say so" bit that all but called me a liar. Then to have someone else come in and say it was a stupid question was just as insulting. I didn't mean to offend anyone, I wasn't trying to deflect or distract or whatever tactic accusation is popular this week. All I did was ask a damn question and you basically jumped down my throat for it. You know better than that.

I thought this was done with too, until StarCards came along and opened it up all over again.

So please, ignore the fact that I asked a question and get back to the topic at hand. Just stop prejudging my posts. THAT is insulting.

habsheaven
07-31-2012, 07:04 PM
Well the "if you say so" comment was not intended to call you a liar. I thought I added a "lol" at the end of it all. Just goes to show it's hard to converse on the internet.

Wickabee
07-31-2012, 07:08 PM
Well the "if you say so" comment was not intended to call you a liar. I thought I added a "lol" at the end of it all. Just goes to show it's hard to converse on the internet.

This is true, to the point where even a "lol" can be taken as an insult. Laughing at someone so to speak. If I had any idea my question would be taken as it apparently was, I never would have asked it. This whole issue is ridiculous. Maybe it's possible that everyone involved took things the wrong way?

shrewsbury
07-31-2012, 09:12 PM
habs, you know this is fun

the oldest piece of the OT is the dead sea scrolls, which date to about the same time as jesus. jesus mentions the OT so it must predate Him (under the assumption He did live), but besides that we don't have much. so it is hard to date anything in the OT considering you cannot even date the OT itself.
then we move to authorship, many will say Moses, but this is just an opinion not a fact. so at this point people will bust out bible verses, but all refer to laws and instructions, not writing history. if this is not enough to make every christian mad I can add how could Moses write about his own death? the answers are there, but just opinions, like my own.
so then we have to deal with who did author it, who copied it, and who translated it, and what were their motives? hebrew can only be traced to 1000bc, but is obviously older, but not around during adam through noah. what was the original language of genesis? who wrote it? how many times was it translated? who all translated it and why?

so if it was written from inspiration of God and/or oral stories past done from generation to generation would there be no room for era? where does God say the book of genesis is exactly like we know it? where does Jesus say this? He mentions Noah, but does not go into any real detail.

so now we are back to this;

I would not what anyone to think my timeline is correct, but it is the only thing outside of pure "magic" that could make any sense. the end of the last ice age made the sea come up nearly 400 feet, which is a pretty big flood. places flooded, people died, God spoke to Noah and saved his family, Noah gathered animals and built an ark, and lived through it all. thousands of years, generations of retelling, thousands of translations and copies being made, and we got what we got. we are missing some key elements, so they could be just left out over the years, or the amount of water, animals, and time has been altered. it is so old we see other ancient cultures adapting and changing the story over generations so anything is possible.
so is it God inspired? yes
is it true? yes
is it exact word for word what happened, no way
are things missing, i would say there is a good chance
will i make other christians mad, sure
is it word for word from God, no way anyone can say yes

Wickabee
07-31-2012, 09:29 PM
It's also interesting to note that just about every region of Earth has had a "flood" story similar to Noah's for a lot longer than Christians have been spreading the bible. That kind of says, "It probably didn't happen like this, but it likely happened."

shrewsbury
07-31-2012, 09:46 PM
wickabee, sure but christians and jews are different, the story of Noah is as old as their written language. there is no reason, since we are all guessing, that the other cultures could not have picked up the story because it predates them all perhaps 10000 to 2000000 years ago. but Noah nor any of his family wrote anything that is known to this day (though there is a fake Noah scroll that is quite amusing and some still hold onto it being real) so all we have is the Bible and our own opinions.

habsheaven
07-31-2012, 09:56 PM
habs, you know this is fun

the oldest piece of the OT is the dead sea scrolls, which date to about the same time as jesus. jesus mentions the OT so it must predate Him (under the assumption He did live), but besides that we don't have much. so it is hard to date anything in the OT considering you cannot even date the OT itself.
then we move to authorship, many will say Moses, but this is just an opinion not a fact. so at this point people will bust out bible verses, but all refer to laws and instructions, not writing history. if this is not enough to make every christian mad I can add how could Moses write about his own death? the answers are there, but just opinions, like my own.
so then we have to deal with who did author it, who copied it, and who translated it, and what were their motives? hebrew can only be traced to 1000bc, but is obviously older, but not around during adam through noah. what was the original language of genesis? who wrote it? how many times was it translated? who all translated it and why?

so if it was written from inspiration of God and/or oral stories past done from generation to generation would there be no room for era? where does God say the book of genesis is exactly like we know it? where does Jesus say this? He mentions Noah, but does not go into any real detail.

so now we are back to this;

I would not what anyone to think my timeline is correct, but it is the only thing outside of pure "magic" that could make any sense. the end of the last ice age made the sea come up nearly 400 feet, which is a pretty big flood. places flooded, people died, God spoke to Noah and saved his family, Noah gathered animals and built an ark, and lived through it all. thousands of years, generations of retelling, thousands of translations and copies being made, and we got what we got. we are missing some key elements, so they could be just left out over the years, or the amount of water, animals, and time has been altered. it is so old we see other ancient cultures adapting and changing the story over generations so anything is possible.
so is it God inspired? yes
is it true? yes
is it exact word for word what happened, no way
are things missing, i would say there is a good chance
will i make other christians mad, sure
is it word for word from God, no way anyone can say yes

This is the kind of response I was expecting to get from you when I first started the thread. Forgive what I am going to say now; but it is sensible, almost logical and I can get a better sense of how you are reconciling the story with your beliefs. I knew you had it in you. :)

Wickabee
07-31-2012, 10:18 PM
wickabee, sure but christians and jews are different, the story of Noah is as old as their written language. there is no reason, since we are all guessing, that the other cultures could not have picked up the story because it predates them all perhaps 10000 to 2000000 years ago. but Noah nor any of his family wrote anything that is known to this day (though there is a fake Noah scroll that is quite amusing and some still hold onto it being real) so all we have is the Bible and our own opinions.

I could buy that if it were found here and there. Not everywhere.

Zimbow
07-31-2012, 11:42 PM
In case no one saw, read/viewed this interesting article on Yahoo earlier;

http://news.yahoo.com/video/noahs-ark-replica-opens-public-203000117.html

JustAlex
08-01-2012, 01:39 AM
In case no one saw, read/viewed this interesting article on Yahoo earlier;

http://news.yahoo.com/video/noahs-ark-replica-opens-public-203000117.html

I saw it.....they're also building one in Kentucky...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40460324/ns/us_news-life/t/northern-kentucky-lands-noahs-ark-park/#.UBiyp7SJeAU

http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/101201-ark-encounter-hmed-4p.grid-6x2.jpg

Zimbow
08-01-2012, 01:51 AM
Comments from that site at the bottom are hilarious.

mrveggieman
08-01-2012, 09:38 AM
Here's is what muslims think about Noah and the ark. Interesting read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Noah#Building_of_the_Ark

habsheaven
08-04-2012, 10:09 AM
Was thinking about the mudslides in BC a few weeks ago which got me thinking about the rate of rainfall during the "Flood". In 40 days and 40 nights the rain would have had to fall at a rate of over 30 ft per hour. Can you imagine what that would have done to the vegetation and soil on the planet? There would have been nothing left.

Wickabee
08-04-2012, 01:50 PM
Was thinking about the mudslides in BC a few weeks ago which got me thinking about the rate of rainfall during the "Flood". In 40 days and 40 nights the rain would have had to fall at a rate of over 30 ft per hour. Can you imagine what that would have done to the vegetation and soil on the planet? There would have been nothing left.
The entire earth would have broken apart and disappeared?

habsheaven
08-04-2012, 02:31 PM
The entire earth would have broken apart and disappeared?

No, more likely the Mariannas Trench would have been filled in with debris along with every other low point on the planet. Leaving the Earth's surface relatively smooth and covered in bedrock.

If you have ever experienced rain falling at 1 inch per hour you would realize that 30 feet per hour is closer to the equivalent of being under a firehose.

Wickabee
08-04-2012, 02:35 PM
No, more likely the Mariannas Trench would have been filled in with debris along with every other low point on the planet. Leaving the Earth's surface relatively smooth and covered in bedrock.

If you have ever experienced rain falling at 1 inch per hour you would realize that 30 feet per hour is closer to the equivalent of being under a firehose.

I've been to Vancouver so I know what 30 feet per hour feels like ;) Though has it been determined how much water was necessary? Or is it more of an estimate?

habsheaven
08-04-2012, 02:51 PM
Well 40 days @ 24 hours in a day = 960 hours to cover a minimum of 29,030 feet.

Wickabee
08-04-2012, 03:09 PM
Well 40 days @ 24 hours in a day = 960 hours to cover a minimum of 29,030 feet.

To 20 feet-ish?
I am trying to clarify and bad at math.

JustAlex
08-04-2012, 03:18 PM
A good video debunking the "myth" of 'the flood'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sD_7rxYoZY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfSvktyxVYA

habsheaven
08-04-2012, 03:27 PM
To 20 feet-ish?
I am trying to clarify and bad at math.

Well if you divide the number of feet you have to cover by the number of hours you have to do it (you being God of course) it takes about 30.24 feet per hour.

Wickabee
08-04-2012, 03:44 PM
Well if you divide the number of feet you have to cover by the number of hours you have to do it (you being God of course) it takes about 30.24 feet per hour.

Sorry, I was talking depth.

habsheaven
08-04-2012, 04:34 PM
Sorry, I was talking depth.

My calculation is based on just getting the water to a depth equal to the height of the tallest mountain. I am not talking about it being 20 feet above that height.

Wickabee
08-04-2012, 04:37 PM
My calculation is based on just getting the water to a depth equal to the height of the tallest mountain. I am not talking about it being 20 feet above that height.

Ok so to the top of Everest then.

Just throwing this out there, maybe the "entire world" simply means the entire known world at that time. It would require much less water at a much slower rate to cover Mesopotamia instead of the entire world.

habsheaven
08-04-2012, 05:30 PM
Ok so to the top of Everest then.

Just throwing this out there, maybe the "entire world" simply means the entire known world at that time. It would require much less water at a much slower rate to cover Mesopotamia instead of the entire world.

Well then there is this matter of gravity. Water has a way of going to the lowest point.

Wickabee
08-04-2012, 06:46 PM
Well then there is this matter of gravity. Water has a way of going to the lowest point.

Yes but, just because the Netherlands is lower than Iraq doesn't mean the water will flow all the way to Holland. Mountain ranges have a way of keep water, and people, in one area. So if the area between the Mediteranean Sea, Indian Ocean and Afghanistan flooded, the water wouldn't necessarily flow away, but would need to dissipate.