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View Full Version : Yet another Mass shooting by a gunman....6 dead.



JustAlex
08-05-2012, 04:02 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/shooting-breaks-sikh-temple-wisconsin-witnesses-171142261.html

This was at a Sikh temple in Wisconsin.

InB4 conservatives say that people should bring guns to churches...

JustAlex
08-05-2012, 04:37 PM
Gunman also died....total deaths....7.

andrewhoya
08-05-2012, 05:57 PM
What is considered a 'mass shooting'?

JustAlex
08-05-2012, 06:07 PM
What is considered a 'mass shooting'?
Mass shooting is derived from Mass Murder:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_murder

"the act of murdering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder) a large number of people (four or more), typically at the same time or over a relatively short period of time. According to the FBI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI), mass murder is defined as four or more murders occurring during a particular event with no cooling-off period between the murders."

andrewhoya
08-05-2012, 06:14 PM
Thanks. I never would have considered this a mass shooting, but I guess the consensus says it is.

duane1969
08-05-2012, 06:27 PM
That is terrible! People are crazy anymore.

MadMan1978
08-05-2012, 06:49 PM
Wow when will it stop?

and Alex for Reference
Mass still has a law on the book that while traveling to Church you must bring a blunderbuss
Part of the old blue laws - However no longer followed

habsheaven
08-05-2012, 07:38 PM
It's only going to get worse. It's part of America's gun culture. Perhaps when they start occurring once a week the American public will come to their senses, but I doubt it.

JustAlex
08-05-2012, 08:00 PM
So, What needs to happen for the U.S to finally wake up and do something about it's gun culture?

Do we need a mass shooting so big, so significant, so horrific, that we just can't turn the blind eye on it anymore?

Do we need a super famous person to be part of the victims?

Do we need the casualty count in TRIPLE DIGITS for something to happen?


This country is hilarious.....then again, this could all be the work of natural selection, if the U.S does not want to fix it's problems, nature will do it for them....and it WON'T be pretty.

INTIMADATOR2007
08-05-2012, 09:02 PM
All americans turn in your guns , so the only people who have them are the Police and crooks !

MadMan1978
08-05-2012, 09:16 PM
All Americans turn in your guns , so the only people who have them are the Police and crooks !

no just you...

side note: Americans should be capitalized

pwaldo
08-05-2012, 09:31 PM
Perhaps when they start occurring once a week the American public will come to their senses, but I doubt it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2179995/A-mass-shooting-happens-FIVE-days-America-Interactive-map-shows-gun-violence-epidemic-sweeping-nation.html


The organization's data says that since 2005, there has been a multiple-victim shooting every 5.9 days in the United States, with 87 people dying of bullet wounds each day. The most dangerous city for mass shootings is Chicago, the organization said, which has suffered through 17 shootings and resulting in 30 deaths and 72 injuries. Of those shootings, thirteen occurred in public places.

mikesilvia
08-05-2012, 09:33 PM
It's only going to get worse. It's part of America's gun culture. Perhaps when they start occurring once a week the American public will come to their senses, but I doubt it.

Really? How do you explain Switzerland where the government issues everyone a gun? That gun culture doesn't have a problem with gun violence.

Also, how do you explain Chicago and Washington D.C. where they have the strictest gun laws in the nation?

INTIMADATOR2007
08-05-2012, 09:54 PM
no just you...

side note: Americans should be capitalized
Noo, I need mine in case i visit a mosque or something and a crazy right winger comes in shootin the place up , I can be the hero !

shrewsbury
08-05-2012, 09:55 PM
banning guns won't stop freaks from killing people. I say make their punishment swift and death, no delays. we should show no mercy to people who commit crimes like this.

JustAlex
08-05-2012, 10:00 PM
banning guns won't stop freaks from killing people. I say make their punishment swift and death, no delays. we should show no mercy to people who commit crimes like this.
I don't think anyone here is asking for banishment of guns.

That would create a black market where things would go from bad to worse.

However, we do nothing.....we just look at all these terrible Mass shootings and just treat it like if it's the norm.

No laws change, there is no discussion and the U.S continues to be the most violent First world country on this planet.....BY FAR!


Like Habs said in the first page, we have a violent gun culture and Americans don't do anything about it.

MadMan1978
08-05-2012, 10:07 PM
banning guns won't stop freaks from killing people. I say make their punishment swift and death, no delays. we should show no mercy to people who commit crimes like this.

as much I hate saying this I agree..

shrewsbury
08-05-2012, 10:09 PM
so what would you do?

ban automatic weapons? already limits on them and a tactical shotgun is just as bad if not worse.
ban ammunition sales on line? already rules in place, they cannot directly ship to you.
screen for gun purchases? already do

people are going to own guns, and this includes bad people, or people who just lose their mind one day.
why is the "batman" shooter not dead yet? would this not be one of the best steps in curbing such tragedies?

JustAlex
08-05-2012, 10:10 PM
I also agree we should have VERY, VERY STRICT punishments for anyone that violates gun laws.

Maybe that should be a start.

MadMan1978
08-05-2012, 10:14 PM
Noo, I need mine in case i visit a mosque or something and a crazy right winger comes in shootin the place up , I can be the hero !

another good point to have mental health exams before issuing gun permits...

pwaldo
08-05-2012, 10:20 PM
I also agree we should have VERY, VERY STRICT punishments for anyone that violates gun laws.

Maybe that should be a start.

Guy is already dead.

It is kinda hard to punish anybody that is willing to die.....just look at suicide bombers. You aren't going to stop those.

JustAlex
08-05-2012, 10:35 PM
Guy is already dead.

It is kinda hard to punish anybody that is willing to die.....just look at suicide bombers. You aren't going to stop those.
Good point....but I'm talking about ALL gun laws.

If you want to be a "big man" and have a gun, you better be 100% responsible, if not you're going to face severe consequences.

boba
08-05-2012, 10:37 PM
I find it pretty sick when people jump on these things to advocate their own political views, lets have some respect.

andrewhoya
08-05-2012, 10:41 PM
It is unfortunate to see people and pundits taking such a horrific event and turning it into a discourse, primarily for political expediency. The issue of “guns” is simply an easy way out and an explaining away the real heart of the issue, putting the blame on someone, or something else.

I am tired of hearing people rant, “Guns kill people!” Do you realize how ridiculous that is? A gun is an object that cannot do anything unless 1) bullets are put into the gun [by a person], 2) a [person’s] finger is placed on the trigger, and then 3) the trigger is pulled [by the PERSON]. It’s like making an argument that forks make people obese. Therefore, “Let’s ban forks!”

Honestly, if people didn’t kill with guns they would then kill with something else; knives, for example. If we banned all of the knives, people would then kill with pencils or toothpicks. Thus, a vicious cycle of banning “things” which diverts the attention to the real heart of the problem -- never really addressing the real issue.

Should people own semi-automatic weapons, ballistic missiles, hand grenades, etc.? Obviously, I don’t think that the founding fathers had that in mind when the second amendment was passed. Plus, I don’t see the “need” for people to own such weaponry…one’s deer/varmint problem couldn’t be that bad. However, the last I checked, I couldn’t simply walk into a Walmart and purchase a semi-automatic weapon. Are there chinks in the armor of our laws, background checks, and system pertaining to people [especially unstable people…yet, how do we know?] purchasing guns and weapons? Sure. Sadly, in the online world in which we live people can obtain just about anything these days, above or below the radar and laws of the land.

JustAlex
08-05-2012, 10:49 PM
Andrew, the reason people say "Guns kill people" is because that's what guns are PRIMARILY used for.

The amount of guns used for other purposes is slim compared to what they are primarily used for....shooting human beings.


Sure, a knife can kill a human, but that is NOT it's primary function.

Therefore, very few people are going to make an argument that we need to regulate knives.....and besides that, how many deaths are caused by knives per year?

Not as much as guns, I can tell you that much.

andrewhoya
08-05-2012, 11:01 PM
Andrew, the reason people say "Guns kill people" is because that's what guns are PRIMARILY used for.

The amount of guns used for other purposes is slim compared to what they are primarily used for....shooting human beings.


Sure, a knife can kill a human, but that is NOT it's primary function.

Therefore, very few people are going to make an argument that we need to regulate knives.....and besides that, how many deaths are caused by knives per year?

Not as much as guns, I can tell you that much.
I disagree- I do not believe the primary use of guns is to kill people. I believe they are more for protection than anything else.

A China teen just killed 8 people with a knife a few days ago. Mass killings DO happen with things other than guns already.

JustAlex
08-05-2012, 11:22 PM
I disagree- I do not believe the primary use of guns is to kill people. I believe they are more for protection than anything else.
How do you protect someone with a gun?

The only way to do so is by threatening someone that you're going to shoot them.

you can't say that a gun's main purpose is to "protect" because in that stance the gun is actually USELESS, it's not doing anything but threatening the other person.

Would you agree that the primary function of a baseball bat is to hit a baseball?

Of course.

But a bat can be used in other ways, such as a blunt object to strike at someone......but again, that is NOT what the bat was made for.


A China teen just killed 8 people with a knife a few days ago. Mass killings DO happen with things other than guns already.
Yes, we know that mass killings happen with other objects, but we don't live in China.

In the U.S, we clearly have a problem with this issue.

Why don't we see mass murders with knives/bats/other objects here in the U.S......why is it always a gun?

That's a simple answer, a gun is easy and practical.

If I want to kill a lot of people in a short amount of time, I'm going to use a gun....it's very easy and very effective.

habsheaven
08-05-2012, 11:37 PM
Really? How do you explain Switzerland where the government issues everyone a gun? That gun culture doesn't have a problem with gun violence.

Also, how do you explain Chicago and Washington D.C. where they have the strictest gun laws in the nation?

This is getting so old! I explain Switzerland this way. They do not have a paid army. All males are conscripted and issued weapons as part of their multi-year service. They are living what your 2nd Amendment was supposed to be for. There is no gun culture. They do not have 9 or 10 gun dealers for every McDonald's restaurant.

Strict gun control laws in Chicago and Washington, DC are useless if the neighboring jurisdictions are lax in their gun laws.

Have you ever looked at the numbers of gun related deaths in America compared to every other country in the world? Try it. Then try and explain it away.

andrewhoya
08-05-2012, 11:45 PM
I do believe guns are for protection more for anything else. If you took a survey of everybody who owns a gun, I bet a large percentage would be for protection. There are tons of disabled people who carry guns with them. Why? For protection. In wars, soldiers carry guns to protect themselves.
How do you protect someone with a gun?

The only way to do so is by threatening someone that you're going to shoot them.

you can't say that a gun's main purpose is to "protect" because in that stance the gun is actually USELESS, it's not doing anything but threatening the other person.

Would you agree that the primary function of a baseball bat is to hit a baseball?

Of course.

But a bat can be used in other ways, such as a blunt object to strike at someone......but again, that is NOT what the bat was made for.


Yes, we know that mass killings happen with other objects, but we don't live in China.

In the U.S, we clearly have a problem with this issue.

Why don't we see mass murders with knives/bats/other objects here in the U.S......why is it always a gun?

That's a simple answer, a gun is easy and practical.

If I want to kill a lot of people in a short amount of time, I'm going to use a gun....it's very easy and very effective.

habsheaven
08-05-2012, 11:47 PM
I have no problem saying if you want to curb the gun culture you need to:

1) Ban handguns.
2) Make possession of a handgun a 10 year minimum sentence.
3) Make commission of a crime with a firearm a 25 year minimum sentence.
4) Make commission of murder with a firearm an automatic death penalty case.

Problems solved!

Now start crying and making outlandish claims of how THIS will ruin the country.

JustAlex
08-05-2012, 11:56 PM
Have you ever looked at the numbers of gun related deaths in America compared to every other country in the world? Try it. Then try and explain it away.
It is FRIGHTENING!

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/committees/gun_violence/resources/the_u_s_compared_to_other_nations.html

-The rate of death from firearms in the United States is eight times higher than that in its economic counterparts in other parts of the world.

-The overall firearm-related death rate among U.S. children younger than 15 years of age is nearly 12 times higher than among children in 25 other industrialized countries combined.

-The United States has the highest rate of youth homicides and suicides among the 26 wealthiest nations.

http://meanwhilepics.com/images/meanwhile/Meanwhile_In_America.jpg

pghin08
08-06-2012, 09:56 AM
It is FRIGHTENING!

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/committees/gun_violence/resources/the_u_s_compared_to_other_nations.html

-The rate of death from firearms in the United States is eight times higher than that in its economic counterparts in other parts of the world.

-The overall firearm-related death rate among U.S. children younger than 15 years of age is nearly 12 times higher than among children in 25 other industrialized countries combined.

-The United States has the highest rate of youth homicides and suicides among the 26 wealthiest nations.

http://meanwhilepics.com/images/meanwhile/Meanwhile_In_America.jpg


I bet that's what Tim Thomas's house looks like

mrveggieman
08-06-2012, 11:42 AM
I have no problem saying if you want to curb the gun culture you need to:

1) Ban handguns.
2) Make possession of a handgun a 10 year minimum sentence.
3) Make commission of a crime with a firearm a 25 year minimum sentence.
4) Make commission of murder with a firearm an automatic death penalty case.

Problems solved!

Now start crying and making outlandish claims of how THIS will ruin the country.


1. Downright unacceptable not to mention a clear violation of the 2nd amendment
2. I would consider if there was some type of leeway based on circumstances
3. Agree
4. Agree

andrewhoya
08-06-2012, 11:54 AM
1. Downright unacceptable not to mention a clear violation of the 2nd amendment
\
Not saying for this particular amendment, but things change in the course of 250 years. Laws don't need to last forever.

mrveggieman
08-06-2012, 11:59 AM
Not saying for this particular amendment, but things change in the course of 250 years. Laws don't need to last forever.

I do agree that certian things need to be changed over time. However when our founding fathers inclueded the second amendment to the bill of rights they wanted the average man to be able to protect himself from an uprising weather it was from other citizens or the gov't itself. Change is good but taking away one's means to defend himself is never good. You know first hand from living in the dc area.

andrewhoya
08-06-2012, 12:00 PM
I do agree that certian things need to be changed over time. However when our founding fathers inclueded the second amendment to the bill of rights they wanted the average man to be able to protect himself from an uprising weather it was from other citizens or the gov't itself. Change is good but taking away one's means to defend himself is never good. You know first hand from living in the dc area.
See, JustAlex? Im not the only person who feels this way.

ensbergcollector
08-06-2012, 12:40 PM
for all the people complaining about the gun culture, how would you fix the "problem"?

(sorry, posted before i read the whole thread)

kevinh1919
08-06-2012, 12:53 PM
I have no problem saying if you want to curb the gun culture you need to:

1) Ban handguns.
2) Make possession of a handgun a 10 year minimum sentence.
3) Make commission of a crime with a firearm a 25 year minimum sentence.
4) Make commission of murder with a firearm an automatic death penalty case.

1 - disagree completely
2 - no issues with this, provided it's limited to felons (not sure of the specifics on the current law, to be honest)
3 - no issues
4 - no issues (think this should be the case, no matter the weapon used)

For the record, I own a number of weapons. (born in MA, raised in SC, live in NC)

I have hunting rifles, shotguns, and handguns - some purchased by me over the years and others inherited when my grandfather passed away.

I think implementing 3 and 4 would go a long way in helping the issue(s) at hand.

habsheaven
08-06-2012, 06:57 PM
I didn't expect any of you to agree with banning handguns. As I said it's part of your gun culture. By keeping the status quo, the level of gun violence will never go down, it will only go up. No concern to me though. I am fortunate to live in a country that has it's priorities right.

Wickabee
08-06-2012, 06:58 PM
I didn't expect any of you to agree with banning handguns. As I said it's part of your gun culture. By keeping the status quo, the level of gun violence will never go down, it will only go up. No concern to me though. I am fortunate to live in a country that has it's priorities right.

I wouldn't go that far. I've never had any issues with how we handle guns, though.

kevinh1919
08-06-2012, 07:17 PM
I didn't expect any of you to agree with banning handguns. As I said it's part of your gun culture. By keeping the status quo, the level of gun violence will never go down, it will only go up. No concern to me though. I am fortunate to live in a country that has it's priorities right.

I didn't see any posts stating to keep the status quo.

Banning handguns would only serve to keep them out of the hands of the law-abiding citizens, not the criminal element.

pwaldo
08-06-2012, 07:36 PM
I didn't expect any of you to agree with banning handguns. As I said it's part of your gun culture. By keeping the status quo, the level of gun violence will never go down, it will only go up. No concern to me though. I am fortunate to live in a country that has it's priorities right.

http://dailycaller.com/2011/09/28/gun-crime-continues-to-decrease-despite-increase-in-gun-ownership/

Despite increases in gun sales, gun crimes continued to decrease in the United States for the fourth straight year in 2010, according to the FBI.

The FBI recently released its Crime in The United States statistics for 2010. Overall, murders in the U.S. have decreased steadily since 2006, dropping from 15,087 to 12,996. Firearms murders — which made up 67 percent of all murders in the U.S. in 2010 — have followed this trend, decreasing by 14 percent.

At the same time that firearms murders were dropping, gun sales were surging. In 2009, FBI background checks for guns increased by 30 percent over the previous year, while firearms sales in large retail outlets increased by almost 40 percent. The number of applications for concealed carry permits jumped across the country as well.

“There was a huge spike,” NRA spokesperson Rachel Parsons said. “It’s probably mellowed out and gone back to normal now.”

There is no national registry of guns, but based on sales-tracking and other figures, the National Rifle Association estimates there are 80 to 90 million gun owners in the U.S.

Also I'd love to hear a way to actually ban something in this country....we have tried banning stuff for over 100 years and have had no luck. Are you just going to ask gangs to hand over their guns? Saying to ban something is easy to actually have a solution is the hard part unfortunately.

habsheaven
08-06-2012, 07:41 PM
I didn't see any posts stating to keep the status quo.

Banning handguns would only serve to keep them out of the hands of the law-abiding citizens, not the criminal element.

Gun proponents say that all the time. It simply isn't true. You ban handguns and criminals are not going to be able to obtain them in home robberies from the law-abiding citizens. Eventually the supply would be reduced which would make it too hard and expensive for the common criminal to get one. Not to mention, with no ammunition for the handguns they become useless. In conjunction with that, you put laws in place that impose heavy penalties on possession and the criminals (gangs) that can afford them are going to stop carrying them.

texansrangerfan73
08-06-2012, 07:47 PM
Gun proponents say that all the time. It simply isn't true. You ban handguns and criminals are not going to be able to obtain them in home robberies from the law-abiding citizens. Eventually the supply would be reduced which would make it too hard and expensive for the common criminal to get one. Not to mention, with no ammunition for the handguns they become useless. In conjunction with that, you put laws in place that impose heavy penalties on possession and the criminals (gangs) that can afford them are going to stop carrying them.
Sorry this isn't gonna happen. We aren't Britain or Australia & we won't be giving up our right to bear arms for the stupid few nuts that's out there. The guy that did this shooting has been on the radar with the SLPC since 2000. What we may need is to upgrade the requirements & the BG checks a little deeper with who people affiliate with.

habsheaven
08-06-2012, 07:47 PM
http://dailycaller.com/2011/09/28/gun-crime-continues-to-decrease-despite-increase-in-gun-ownership/

Despite increases in gun sales, gun crimes continued to decrease in the United States for the fourth straight year in 2010, according to the FBI.

The FBI recently released its Crime in The United States statistics for 2010. Overall, murders in the U.S. have decreased steadily since 2006, dropping from 15,087 to 12,996. Firearms murders — which made up 67 percent of all murders in the U.S. in 2010 — have followed this trend, decreasing by 14 percent.

At the same time that firearms murders were dropping, gun sales were surging. In 2009, FBI background checks for guns increased by 30 percent over the previous year, while firearms sales in large retail outlets increased by almost 40 percent. The number of applications for concealed carry permits jumped across the country as well.

“There was a huge spike,” NRA spokesperson Rachel Parsons said. “It’s probably mellowed out and gone back to normal now.”

There is no national registry of guns, but based on sales-tracking and other figures, the National Rifle Association estimates there are 80 to 90 million gun owners in the U.S.

Also I'd love to hear a way to actually ban something in this country....we have tried banning stuff for over 100 years and have had no luck. Are you just going to ask gangs to hand over their guns? Saying to ban something is easy to actually have a solution is the hard part unfortunately.

A ban is not expected to eliminate an illegal good by 100%. It is intended to be a step in reducing those gun deaths. Amazingly you quote a number of almost 13,000 deaths as if it's a good thing.

habsheaven
08-06-2012, 07:50 PM
I know it's not going to happen, I'm not delusional. 13,000 gun deaths is not the result of a "few nuts out there". It's the result of a massive number of nuts out there.

texansrangerfan73
08-06-2012, 07:53 PM
I know it's not going to happen, I'm not delusional. 13,000 gun deaths is not the result of a "few nuts out there". It's the result of a massive number of nuts out there.
Well I'd hope we could agree that it's less nuts & more gang-bangers & thugs than just people who claim they're crazy.

habsheaven
08-06-2012, 07:59 PM
Well I'd hope we could agree that it's less nuts & more gang-bangers & thugs than just people who claim they're crazy.

I think we can agree on that.

kevinh1919
08-06-2012, 08:05 PM
Gun proponents say that all the time. It simply isn't true. You ban handguns and criminals are not going to be able to obtain them in home robberies from the law-abiding citizens. Eventually the supply would be reduced which would make it too hard and expensive for the common criminal to get one. Not to mention, with no ammunition for the handguns they become useless. In conjunction with that, you put laws in place that impose heavy penalties on possession and the criminals (gangs) that can afford them are going to stop carrying them.

There are folks who make their own bullets. If ammunition sales stopped completely, I believe the criminals would start doing the same.

They'll also continue to fund their gun cause through proceeds from other illegal activity. I do not think monetary value means much to the people we're talking about (heck, many do not value life, unless it's their own).

habsheaven
08-06-2012, 08:12 PM
There are folks who make their own bullets. If ammunition sales stopped completely, I believe the criminals would start doing the same.

They'll also continue to fund their gun cause through proceeds from other illegal activity. I do not think monetary value means much to the people we're talking about (heck, many do not value life, unless it's their own).

I am not trying to imply a ban would totally eliminate handguns. I am stating that it would reduce them to a point where those 13,000 deaths could be reduced to a couple of hundred. Most criminals are not in a financial position to obtain guns and ammo if it starts costing a fortune.

kevinh1919
08-06-2012, 08:39 PM
I am not trying to imply a ban would totally eliminate handguns. I am stating that it would reduce them to a point where those 13,000 deaths could be reduced to a couple of hundred. Most criminals are not in a financial position to obtain guns and ammo if it starts costing a fortune.

I understand what you're saying.

While it may not be immediate, I think your 3rd and 4th suggestions would be the best route to reduce crimes with guns.

habsheaven
08-06-2012, 08:50 PM
I understand what you're saying.

While it may not be immediate, I think your 3rd and 4th suggestions would be the best route to reduce crimes with guns.

I think so too.

mrveggieman
08-07-2012, 09:17 AM
I am not trying to imply a ban would totally eliminate handguns. I am stating that it would reduce them to a point where those 13,000 deaths could be reduced to a couple of hundred. Most criminals are not in a financial position to obtain guns and ammo if it starts costing a fortune.


Disagree. Last time I checked street drugs are illegal in the united states but you can go to any street corner in american to buy your drug of choice. There will always be a black market for illegal goods. By making handguns illegal for the law abiding citizen you are simply making it harder for the common man to defend himself, therefore making it easier for criminals and putting a bigger strain on law enforcement.