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JustAlex
08-11-2012, 08:02 PM
Before I start commenting.....let me do something first.....

YEP, I just checked my calendar and it's still 2012.....However, some Christians are stuck in 1952.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/07/father-letter-disowning-gay-son_n_1752053.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/07/father-letter-disowning-gay-son_n_1752053.html)


Yes, a father has disowned his son just because he happens to have an attraction to males instead of females.....He wrote a letter to his son explaining why he feels the need to no longer be in the life of his own son just because he's gay.

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/719684/thumbs/o-LETTER-TO-GAY-SON-570.jpg?4


When will we grow up???

joee5
08-11-2012, 08:04 PM
dunno about disowning anyone. That be hard to accept, but it is his flesh and blood.

ensbergcollector
08-11-2012, 08:56 PM
are we really writing articles now about one random person doing something stupid? do you feel the need to post a new thread every time a "christian" does anything negative? Everyone here will say that the dad is an idiot and even if you disagree with the lifestyle that is no justification for disowning someone.

JustAlex
08-11-2012, 09:24 PM
are we really writing articles now about one random person doing something stupid? do you feel the need to post a new thread every time a "christian" does anything negative? Everyone here will say that the dad is an idiot and even if you disagree with the lifestyle that is no justification for disowning someone.
Do you think this is something rare?

Do you know how many gay kids go through this nightmare with their families because religion has told them that what they're doing is beyond unforgivable???

Articles like this should be written MORE so people can see just how terrible it is what we're (as a country) continuing to do to gays.

Kids kill themselves over stuff like this, and that's why so many are so scared to "come out of the closet".


This happens a lot more than you think.....it's really not that "Random".

shrewsbury
08-11-2012, 09:29 PM
and there are women who marry men who are in prison for murder. insane people are in all walks of life, has nothing with christians.

it's funny you always relate anti gay to christians.

shrewsbury
08-11-2012, 09:32 PM
here's some real anti gay stuff to complain about <br />
<br />
http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/locked-up-abroad/dossier--stephen-comiskey/ <br />
<br />
and here is something else for you <br />
<br />
<br />
...

JustAlex
08-11-2012, 10:02 PM
Shrew, what's the point in saying "well, in Islam they kill their gays, at least we don't do that".

Yes, gays have it much worse in the Islamic countries, but as Americans we shouldn't think about it that way.

We should fix our problems first.


How do you fix this problem?

It's very simple.....you make gay people feel like they are normal, just like the rest of us.

You stop telling them that they're going to hell or that they're an abomination or that they don't deserve the same rights as everyone else just because they have a different preference.

I hate hearing stories like this, I feel so bad for this guy who has been disowned by his father just because he believes in something which is simply not true.

Gays can't choose to be gay, they are born that way....and every religion which discriminates on them is dead wrong for doing so.

ensbergcollector
08-11-2012, 10:21 PM
it is that you claim to feel the same about all religions and yet you say nothing of much worse atrocities committed by muslims and yet 90% of your comments on this board is to slam christianity. it seems you have one focus, and that is to criticize christianity. not religion but christianity. it is pointed out that 7 countries kill homosexuals and you write it off with one line.

JustAlex
08-11-2012, 10:32 PM
it is that you claim to feel the same about all religions and yet you say nothing of much worse atrocities committed by muslims and yet 90% of your comments on this board is to slam christianity. it seems you have one focus, and that is to criticize christianity. not religion but christianity. it is pointed out that 7 countries kill homosexuals and you write it off with one line.
Do we live in one of those 7 countries?

What's the point of talking about them, when we still have gay kids committing suicides here at home?

Like I said, let's fix our problems first and then we can focus on foreign countries and what we can do to help them.

At least that's how I see it.

shrewsbury
08-11-2012, 10:47 PM
alex, though I agree this is horrible, but as a Christian can honestly say, Jesus doesn't influence me to reject anyone based on sexual preference.

And as a father I am unsure how anyone could do this to their own child.

Good Ole Jim
08-11-2012, 11:14 PM
Just for the record, Alex. I enjoy a lot of your content, but I'd appreciate it if you'd stop labeling everyone that calls them self a Christian. The God I believe in doesn't reject anyone based on sex, race, sexual preference, or a different religion that still honors Him. I do call myself a Christian and I'm proud of that.

Not harping on you or anything, just kinda wanted to put that out there. I don't think that's the kind of person you are, but it does come off as insulting sometimes. There's a fine line between ignorance and debate.

Anyway, continue thread! :)

boba
08-11-2012, 11:14 PM
Do you think this is something rare?

Do you know how many gay kids go through this nightmare with their families because religion has told them that what they're doing is beyond unforgivable???

Articles like this should be written MORE so people can see just how terrible it is what we're (as a country) continuing to do to gays.

Kids kill themselves over stuff like this, and that's why so many are so scared to "come out of the closet".


This happens a lot more than you think.....it's really not that "Random".

If there is an article written about it, it would lead me to believe that it is rare.

JustAlex
08-12-2012, 12:20 AM
Just for the record, Alex. I enjoy a lot of your content, but I'd appreciate it if you'd stop labeling everyone that calls them self a Christian. The God I believe in doesn't reject anyone based on sex, race, sexual preference, or a different religion that still honors Him. I do call myself a Christian and I'm proud of that.

Not harping on you or anything, just kinda wanted to put that out there. I don't think that's the kind of person you are, but it does come off as insulting sometimes. There's a fine line between ignorance and debate.

Anyway, continue thread! :)
I'm not sure how else to label someone other than what they are proclaiming to be...

Some Muslims say that the extremists are not real Muslims because the Koran doesn't teach the things they do....but Americans still label them "Muslim".

This guy is saying that because of his christian beliefs he no longer wants to be part of his son's life......maybe he really isn't a "true christian", but that's how he's labeling himself, what else can be done?

Good Ole Jim
08-12-2012, 12:39 AM
I'm not sure how else to label someone other than what they are proclaiming to be...

Some Muslims say that the extremists are not real Muslims because the Koran doesn't teach the things they do....but Americans still label them "Muslim".

This guy is saying that because of his christian beliefs he no longer wants to be part of his son's life......maybe he really isn't a "true christian", but that's how he's labeling himself, what else can be done?

But you can't generalize people like that. You can't take what you read in news articles, and assume that's the belief of every American, or the belief of every Christian, it's just not how the world works. Everyone has an opinion, some are the same, most are not.

You don't hear anyone here saying that Atheists are Christian hating, God bashing people like the news makes them out to be. I have really good friends that our Atheists, I respect their opinion as much as they respect mine as someone who believes in a God.

Every opinion is different to an extent, but new-age media that we have today generalizes everything. It'd be the same to say that all Republicans are anti-gay, when they really aren't.

I don't know, not trying to start something, I'm one that debates professionally, but sometimes everyone feels the need to speak out.

JustAlex
08-12-2012, 01:12 AM
But you can't generalize people like that. You can't take what you read in news articles, and assume that's the belief of every American, or the belief of every Christian, it's just not how the world works. Everyone has an opinion, some are the same, most are not.

You don't hear anyone here saying that Atheists are Christian hating, God bashing people like the news makes them out to be. I have really good friends that our Atheists, I respect their opinion as much as they respect mine as someone who believes in a God.

Every opinion is different to an extent, but new-age media that we have today generalizes everything. It'd be the same to say that all Republicans are anti-gay, when they really aren't.

I don't know, not trying to start something, I'm one that debates professionally, but sometimes everyone feels the need to speak out.
But I didn't generalize, I clearly said SOME Christians, nowhere did I say all or the majority, or anything like that:


YEP, I just checked my calendar and it's still 2012.....However, some Christians are stuck in 1952.

tjmcb73
08-12-2012, 01:55 AM
My biological father has disowned me cuz my wife & I decided not to have children(though we'd love to).

We both have medical conditions that have limited our employment.
Neither of us drive. I have epilepsy so have shakes rather frequent.
With epilepsy, I need my rest.

Havin' children cost a ton of money to have.
It'd be great to know the child is part of you,
but you also have to be realistic.

When Grandma died in June, he came to visitation but never acknowledged me or the Mrs!!!

I'm proud to say Mom married a great guy I'm proud to call my dad(even tho I still call him Greg) back in '89.

ALADOG
08-12-2012, 09:19 AM
Alex, it appears some here are trying to tell you if you let go of the hatred you have for those who do not have the same beliefs and opinions as yours, life will beome more bearable for you. This goes along with the arrogance that you believe that yours is the only valid opiinion out there.

Bracing for unfounded liberal criticism.

andrewhoya
08-12-2012, 09:30 AM
I am a Christian but do not believe everything in the bible. I am all for gay rights and believe there are other gods out there. I hate it when I see the labeling of stuff like thus because I know that not everyone is that way.
But you can't generalize people like that. You can't take what you read in news articles, and assume that's the belief of every American, or the belief of every Christian, it's just not how the world works. Everyone has an opinion, some are the same, most are not.

You don't hear anyone here saying that Atheists are Christian hating, God bashing people like the news makes them out to be. I have really good friends that our Atheists, I respect their opinion as much as they respect mine as someone who believes in a God.

Every opinion is different to an extent, but new-age media that we have today generalizes everything. It'd be the same to say that all Republicans are anti-gay, when they really aren't.

I don't know, not trying to start something, I'm one that debates professionally, but sometimes everyone feels the need to speak out.

Good Ole Jim
08-12-2012, 09:55 AM
I am a Christian but do not believe everything in the bible. I am all for gay rights and believe there are other gods out there. I hate it when I see the labeling of stuff like thus because I know that not everyone is that way.

I agree with you 100%. There's some stuff in the Bible that needs to be shaped for the future we live in. I'm all for gay rights, and I don't believe God judges people on that. The media seems to think that all people that calls them self a Christian is ALWAYS against gay rights, this is an ignorant, unsupported claim that quite frankly makes me boil.



As far as your post Alex, I'm not just referring to this thread, but others. You claimed Christians ruined the Republican party, which is not true. Terrible laws, awful practice in foreign policy, bad leadership, and a ridiculous use of surplus ruined the Republican party. Please, don't group guys like George W. and Mitt as Christians who are ruining the party. They may call themselves that, but again, it's not the idea of the masses.

You've also used the terms "conservatives and christians" as the ones who keep fighting gay marriage rights in another thread. That's a generalization. I know plenty of democrats who are against gay marriage, and I know plenty of conservatives that are for game marriage. Most Christians I know are for it.

andrewhoya
08-12-2012, 10:16 AM
Agreed 100%. I think it is crazy how people base EVERYTHING their life over something written 2000 years ago. Yes, many of the morals are good, but not everything.
I agree with you 100%. There's some stuff in the Bible that needs to be shaped for the future we live in. I'm all for gay rights, and I don't believe God judges people on that. The media seems to think that all people that calls them self a Christian is ALWAYS against gay rights, this is an ignorant, unsupported claim that quite frankly makes me boil.

ALADOG
08-12-2012, 10:56 AM
Agreed 100%. I think it is crazy how people base EVERYTHING their life over something written 2000 years ago. Yes, many of the morals are good, but not everything.


Right and wrong has not changed, but the perception that we are soo much more enlightened has changed. What was right 2000 years ago is right now and the same with wrong. What we do in the name of enlightenment uis scarry.

Bracing for unfounded liberal criticism.

Wickabee
08-12-2012, 11:09 AM
Right and wrong has not changed, but the perception that we are soo much more enlightened has changed. What was right 2000 years ago is right now and the same with wrong. What we do in the name of enlightenment uis scarry.

Bracing for unfounded liberal criticism.
I hate to do this but owning slaves was right long ago. Is it right now?

Bracing for unfounded claims that that was unfounded liberal critisism.

JustAlex
08-12-2012, 11:32 AM
As far as your post Alex, I'm not just referring to this thread, but others. You claimed Christians ruined the Republican party, which is not true.

I didn't say that!

This is what I said: "To be perfectly fair.....it should be how EXTREMIST Christianity ruined my party."

I'll link it: http://www.sportscardforum.com/threads/1727640-GOP-Insider-How-Religion-Destroyed-My-Party

You've also used the terms "conservatives and christians" as the ones who keep fighting gay marriage rights in another thread. That's a generalization. I know plenty of democrats who are against gay marriage, and I know plenty of conservatives that are for game marriage. Most Christians I know are for it.

Ok, this one is true.....but a lot conservative christians DO fight against gay marriage and even though you are right that plenty of democrats also fight it, it's mostly from the right and that is a factual statement.
Responses in bold.

ALADOG
08-12-2012, 11:53 AM
I hate to do this but owning slaves was right long ago. Is it right now?

Bracing for unfounded claims that that was unfounded liberal critisism.


I made no comment as to any specific rights or wrongs, only that right and wrong have not changed. You are the one tyring to make something out of nothing.

Bracing fo rnfounded liberal criticism.

Wickabee
08-12-2012, 12:00 PM
I made no comment as to any specific rights or wrongs, only that right and wrong have not changed. You are the one tyring to make something out of nothing.

Bracing fo rnfounded liberal criticism.
And you said it in a thread about homosexuality. If you weren't talking about anything specific, then why post in a thread with a very specific topic?

Bracing for unfounded conservative criticism (<- I like that. It automatically makes everyone who disagrees with you wrong and their claims unfounded)

ALADOG
08-12-2012, 12:05 PM
And you said it in a thread about homosexuality. If you weren't talking about anything specific, then why post in a thread with a very specific topic?

Bracing for unfounded conservative criticism (<- I like that. It automatically makes everyone who disagrees with you wrong and their claims unfounded)

I said it in ressponse to a generalized statement. And I should add, why are you dredgiing up slavery in a homosexual thread.


Bracing for unfounded liberal criticism.

andrewhoya
08-12-2012, 12:13 PM
He gave you an example and you practically ignored it. Not his problem that you basically ignore posts in all of these threads that prove your points wrong.
I made no comment as to any specific rights or wrongs, only that right and wrong have not changed. You are the one tyring to make something out of nothing.

Bracing fo rnfounded liberal criticism.

Wickabee
08-12-2012, 12:14 PM
I said it in ressponse to a generalized statement. And I should add, why are you dredgiing up slavery in a homosexual thread.


Bracing for unfounded liberal criticism.
Because what was right then isn't necessarily right now. And can you make that your signature instead? It looks stupid in every single quote.

ALADOG
08-12-2012, 12:18 PM
Because what was right then isn't necessarily right now. And can you make that your signature instead? It looks stupid in every single quote.



I want to get this straight that in your world right and wrong are fluid and subject to subjective change upon a whim. Glad I don't live in your imaginary world.

Bracing for unfounded liberal criticism.

andrewhoya
08-12-2012, 12:21 PM
Changing over 2000 years is not changing on a whim.
I want to get this straight that in your world right and wrong are fluid and subject to subjective change upon a whim. Glad I don't live in your imaginary world.

Bracing for unfounded liberal criticism.

Wickabee
08-12-2012, 12:30 PM
I want to get this straight that in your world right and wrong are fluid and subject to subjective change upon a whim. Glad I don't live in your imaginary world.


So slavery is a good thing in your world?

mikesilvia
08-12-2012, 01:02 PM
Personally, I think it would be crazy to disown any family member or friend because of their sexual preference. Strong beliefs in religion make people do things non-religious people likely wouldn't do. Don't most religious people put God above family? Regardless of the religion?

habsheaven
08-12-2012, 01:58 PM
Personally, I think it would be crazy to disown any family member or friend because of their sexual preference. Strong beliefs in religion make people do things non-religious people likely wouldn't do. Don't most religious people put God above family? Regardless of the religion?

Yes, they do. As unbelievable and unacceptable to many as it sounds.

pspstatus
08-12-2012, 02:43 PM
Personally, I think it would be crazy to disown any family member or friend because of their sexual preference. Strong beliefs in religion make people do things non-religious people likely wouldn't do. Don't most religious people put God above family? Regardless of the religion?

I believe that is what many religions actually teach. That's one reason that I can't take them seriously. I put nobody above my mom and dad.

Wickabee
08-12-2012, 10:46 PM
That:'s one of the problems I have with religion. I have a respect for God, but if it comes right down to it, God God doesn't need me, so screw him. My family needs me and I neex them.

shrewsbury
08-13-2012, 08:43 AM
wickabee, so when you are old enough to feed and take care of yourself, you say the heck with your parents, since you no longer need them? and you expect your children(if you have any) would do the same?

and how are you needed? your income could be replaced by another, so could your physical help, and so could the comfort you provide for them.

There is a huge difference between want and need, your family could survive with out you, just like God can. But they both want and love you.

mrveggieman
08-13-2012, 09:11 AM
Here's my spin. First my bishop teaches that homosexuality is a evil demonic spirit. (He is not saying that homosexuals are demons but they have a demonic spirit) He would also say hate the sin and not the sinner. If that were my child I would continue to love him and pray for him even though I do not agree with his lifestyle. However he does have the legal right to be gay just like he has the legal right to practice whatever religion he choses or no religion at all and I also think that he should be able to legally marry any consenting adult of his chosing.

Star_Cards
08-13-2012, 09:33 AM
My biological father has disowned me cuz my wife & I decided not to have children(though we'd love to).

We both have medical conditions that have limited our employment.
Neither of us drive. I have epilepsy so have shakes rather frequent.
With epilepsy, I need my rest.

Havin' children cost a ton of money to have.
It'd be great to know the child is part of you,
but you also have to be realistic.

When Grandma died in June, he came to visitation but never acknowledged me or the Mrs!!!

I'm proud to say Mom married a great guy I'm proud to call my dad(even tho I still call him Greg) back in '89.

wow. that's very unfortunate. I get that there are things that people can do to cause such a drastic reaction from parents or other family members, but doing so because you aren't having children is extreme. What a selfish man.

Star_Cards
08-13-2012, 09:47 AM
I want to get this straight that in your world right and wrong are fluid and subject to subjective change upon a whim. Glad I don't live in your imaginary world.

Bracing for unfounded liberal criticism.

This makes little sense to me. Sure there are absolute rights and wrongs, but there are so many ares of gray when discussing right and wrong. You can't just say X is wrong and Y is right. In a lot of areas you need the details.

for example, if I tell you that a man shot a killed another man one would typically assume that the man who did the shooting was wrong, but in reality there are many different scenarios that could play out two where the shooter was justified and that the man that got shot was wrong. Things really aren't as black and white in the realms of right and wrong as you want to think.

As far as your signature... to me it makes you look like a person that wants to deflect any other opinions by trying to define a person as liberal rather than having a healthy debate about topics.

shrewsbury
08-13-2012, 10:13 AM
veggie, though I agree I think the issue is there is nothing that says you have a right to sexuality nor the right to marry. This is all opinion, not rights.

mrveggieman
08-13-2012, 10:20 AM
If a straight man is able to use to a particular program or service not offering the same program or service to a man simply because he is gay is discrimination based on sexual orientation. No other way to slice it.
veggie, though I agree I think the issue is there is nothing that says you have a right to sexuality nor the right to marry. This is all opinion, not rights.

Star_Cards
08-13-2012, 10:39 AM
veggie, though I agree I think the issue is there is nothing that says you have a right to sexuality nor the right to marry. This is all opinion, not rights.

I'd say that if the state recognizes one and not the other, one has a right to marry and one doesn't. If you want to argue if marriage is a right or not that's fine, but for one they can do it and one they can't. Doesn't seem logical to me when talking about the definition in the eyes of the state, which is what matters in the discussion of same sex marriage. The religious aspects of marriage have zero bearing. Marriages within a specific religion isn't automatically recognized by the state. They have to file paper work with the state as well. One's religion has no impact on whether or not they can be married. Sexual preference shouldn't either.

shrewsbury
08-13-2012, 10:52 AM
You guys seem to think i disagree, when I stated I did agree. What I said was there is no law stating you can have sex with whomever you choose, nor is there a law stating you can marry whomever you choose.
But there is a law saying we can be of any religion we want or no religion and freedom of speech, but these are often overlooked when they do not agree with what your opinions are.

Wickabee
08-13-2012, 11:57 AM
wickabee, so when you are old enough to feed and take care of yourself, you say the heck with your parents, since you no longer need them? and you expect your children(if you have any) would do the same?

and how are you needed? your income could be replaced by another, so could your physical help, and so could the comfort you provide for them.

There is a huge difference between want and need, your family could survive with out you, just like God can. But they both want and love you.
If it comes down to it I choose my family over God. That's the end of it.
Thanks, though, for telling me I'm unnecessary but loved.
/rolleyes

boba
08-13-2012, 12:52 PM
I hate to do this but owning slaves was right long ago. Is it right now?

Bracing for unfounded claims that that was unfounded liberal critisism.

Where in the Bible does it say owning slaves is ok?

Wickabee
08-13-2012, 12:54 PM
Where in the Bible does it say owning slaves is ok?

Seriously?

andrewhoya
08-13-2012, 12:55 PM
Where in the Bible does it say owning slaves is ok?
Thats not what he was saying..... Have you read the entire thread?

Star_Cards
08-13-2012, 01:00 PM
You guys seem to think i disagree, when I stated I did agree. What I said was there is no law stating you can have sex with whomever you choose, nor is there a law stating you can marry whomever you choose.
But there is a law saying we can be of any religion we want or no religion and freedom of speech, but these are often overlooked when they do not agree with what your opinions are.

so you are just debating is it considered a right or not based on if there's a law giving you that right?

if so that's just arguing what we'd call it rather than if it should be recognized.

boba
08-13-2012, 01:04 PM
Seriously?


Thats not what he was saying..... Have you read the entire thread?

obviously that is what he was saying. You said some things need to be changed in the Bible to fit our times, someone said it shouldn't be changed, then Wickabee said are you still for slavery.

I don't see any scriptures condone slavery. All I see scriptures telling people how slaves need to be treated, and it's always good.

Star_Cards
08-13-2012, 01:10 PM
obviously that is what he was saying. You said some things need to be changed in the Bible to fit our times, someone said it shouldn't be changed, then Wickabee said are you still for slavery.

I don't see any scriptures condone slavery. All I see scriptures telling people how slaves need to be treated, and it's always good.

I'm no biblical expert but wouldn't one think the bible would denounce slavery in it's text when discussing it if it thought it was an evil thing? One could make a leap to think it endorses slavery since it discusses it and doesn't tell us that it's wrong.

Wickabee
08-13-2012, 01:17 PM
obviously that is what he was saying. You said some things need to be changed in the Bible to fit our times, someone said it shouldn't be changed, then Wickabee said are you still for slavery.

I don't see any scriptures condone slavery. All I see scriptures telling people how slaves need to be treated, and it's always good.
No righteous Israelites had slaves?
If you say so. Glad to see you reallyknow the book yoy follow.

habsheaven
08-13-2012, 01:18 PM
I'm no biblical expert but wouldn't one think the bible would denounce slavery in it's text when discussing it if it thought it was an evil thing? One could make a leap to think it endorses slavery since it discusses it and doesn't tell us that it's wrong.

It's not much of a leap. Problem is it's logical and that's where they get lost in their interpretations.

mrveggieman
08-13-2012, 01:59 PM
Not to veer off topic but the bible is kind of like the constitution where as it often gets amended as times change. Im not saying that that is a good nor a bad thing but that is what happens.

Star_Cards
08-13-2012, 02:51 PM
Not to veer off topic but the bible is kind of like the constitution where as it often gets amended as times change. Im not saying that that is a good nor a bad thing but that is what happens.

good point. that's why I'm not sure why people see the bible as being the end all be all word of god.

habsheaven
08-13-2012, 03:12 PM
I disagree. The bible does not get amended, only people's interpretations of it get amended.

mrveggieman
08-13-2012, 03:32 PM
I disagree. The bible does not get amended, only people's interpretations of it get amended.


Same idea. While the original words of the constitution remain the same differrent interpations or amendments are added. Now I will admit no new words are added to the actual bible it is always up for interpertation. Perfect examples were slavery is no longer acceptable which is a good thing and the kosher dietary laws are thrown out which is not a good thing.

shrewsbury
08-13-2012, 03:44 PM
Perhaps the difference is some believe the Bible was written by God, where others believe it was inspired by God.

Paul was a great man, but yet he was a man, and many who refer to the teaching of Jesus in the NT are actually referring to a mans interpretation of the teachings of Jesus. There are many ways to interpret things, but you first have to decide what is worth taking the time to interpret.

the most common is Luke 12, but Jesus was referring to Luke and Jesus, not a slave and his owner.

JustAlex
08-13-2012, 05:31 PM
obviously that is what he was saying. You said some things need to be changed in the Bible to fit our times, someone said it shouldn't be changed, then Wickabee said are you still for slavery.

I don't see any scriptures condone slavery. All I see scriptures telling people how slaves need to be treated, and it's always good.

Um...NO!

Slaves were NOT treated well!

But even if slaves were treated like family, it's STILL BAD!

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)


^This is good treatment of slaves????