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mrveggieman
08-16-2012, 03:50 PM
Here's an idea. Some of us are married some are engaged and some are nowhere near getting married right now. Use this thread to ask questions about marriage, how to maintain your marraige or when is the right time to get married. You can even ask questions about divorce if you like. To tie this in to P&R feel free to offer biblical (or any other holy book of your chosing) advice on marriage. Or if you do not believe a holy book just speak what's on your mind. Also let me put this legal disclaimer out there this is only to ask general questions and to give your opinions and none of the information provided on here should be used in lieu of seeing a liscenced professional.

ensbergcollector
08-16-2012, 03:52 PM
I think one thing that would make a huge difference is if people went into marriage with the attitude that divorce is not an option. Now, my parents are divorced as are multiple people I know so I am not bad mouthing people who have been divorced. Just saying that I have witnessed a lot of people who got married only to get divorced when things weren't perfect. Divorce rates weren't lower in the past because people didn't have problems, they were lower because people stuck with it.

pghin08
08-16-2012, 03:54 PM
I just got engaged, so I'm welcome to all advice!

mrveggieman
08-16-2012, 03:57 PM
Yeah no matter what you do, do not ever feel pressured to get married because you have a child, you are getting to old, or you want to morrally have sex. When it is the right time to get married you will know it. Also enjoy the single life while you can. The lines of divorce court are filled with guys as well as girls who wanted to be married on paper while still living the single life.

habsheaven
08-16-2012, 04:11 PM
I got married on my 22nd birthday. I am 46 now. I knew I wanted to get married as soon as financially possible and was lucky enough to find a young woman that had similar priorities. We actually "dated" in grade school prior to going our separate ways and meeting back up in our early 20's. Marriage is a lot of work and I think ensbergcollector makes a great point; you really have to believe in your vows.

mrveggieman
08-16-2012, 04:18 PM
I got married on my 22nd birthday. I am 46 now. I knew I wanted to get married as soon as financially possible and was lucky enough to find a young woman that had similar priorities. We actually "dated" in grade school prior to going our separate ways and meeting back up in our early 20's. Marriage is a lot of work and I think ensbergcollector makes a great point; you really have to believe in your vows.

Wow when i was 22 getting married was on right up there with getting shot in the head of things that I want to do. :sign0020: Seriously though marriage is a lot of hard work and I know this dosen't apply to habs but it helps to have God in your marriage because lord knows I have to do a lot of praying for patience in dealing with my wife. :pound:

Tivo32
08-16-2012, 04:28 PM
:thumb: to a positive, uplifting thread! We need more of these around here.

One thing that has always stuck with me that I plan on remember when I get married (I'm 24 now and dating the girl I would like to marry in the very near future) was an interview with Will Smith. They asked him at the time how he was able to keep his marriage steady when so many in Hollywood were getting divorces. He answered "Divorce simply is never an option for us."

Wickabee
08-16-2012, 04:42 PM
I got married just after my 26th birthday. We had been together for a few years already and had both decided neither of us could stand anyone else for an extended period of time. We didn't need to get married, but it made the moms happy. I agree with the above that too many people go into marriage thinking divorce is an option. While I have known divorces that were necessary (both parties are much happier and get along better now) but I've also seen lots of divorces that were, well, selfish on one party's part. I also, and don't think I'm bashing Christians here, know of more than a few Christians who are now divorced after getting married "because I'm not waiting any longer to have sex". Lots of single mothers I know played that card and lost.


I just got engaged, so I'm welcome to all advice!
Liquor. Yardwork and liquor

Tivo32
08-16-2012, 05:04 PM
I also, and don't think I'm bashing Christians here, know of more than a few Christians who are now divorced after getting married "because I'm not waiting any longer to have sex".

Having graduated from a Bible college I can tell you this much, 1.) you're not bashing at all and 2.) it happens WAY WAY too often.

There were kids who were freshman and sophomores, 18 and 19 years old, getting married after literally 2 months after dating each other. More often than not, it's a disaster waiting to happen.

mrveggieman
08-16-2012, 05:13 PM
You know I really do love my wife but sometimes I wonder how my life would be if we never met. Then sometimes I wonder how I could live without her. Marriage has it's ups and downs. Marriage can be drama but so can a divorce. We are working on things but we will see how it turns out.

Wickabee
08-16-2012, 05:16 PM
You know I really do love my wife but sometimes I wonder how my life would be if we never met. Then sometimes I wonder how I could live without her. Marriage has it's ups and downs. Marriage can be drama but so can a divorce. We are working on things but we will see how it turns out.

Funny thing about divorce I've noticed. When it's a mutual break-up that is a "legitimate" divorce, both people are unhappy at first but, in the end, are much happier. When it's one person just flat out leaving their spouse, the person who left is usually happy at first and miserable later while the person who was left is miserable at first but happier in the end.

schwood
08-16-2012, 05:33 PM
One word - Communication!

I think a lot of marriages end due to the lack of communication. And communication goes both ways. You have to be able to speak your mind to your partner, and you have to be able to listen to your partner. Without communication, in the long run, relationships are nearly impossible. Have an open mind, and give your spouse an open communication line at all times. This will help more than you could ever imagine. I honestly could absolutely not even think about life without my wife and two kids. And honestly, with the good and bad, there is nothing in life more important than family.

JustAlex
08-16-2012, 11:45 PM
Well, I personally believe marriage is wholesomely TERRIBLE.....if I want to make a family, I can do so without marriage, If I love someone....I can do so without making a nonsense commitment to be together until one of us dies.

However for you guys that do in fact want to partake in such an outdated ritual, that is great and of course my stance is that I believe ALL consenting adults should be able to marry whatever gender or transgender they prefer.

Overall, I have a very bleak outlook on marriage, I find it unnecessary, too many cons and not enough pros for me to want to do it.

yeah, I guess I'll remain a bachelor for the rest of my life having sex with any girl that allows me, instead of the dreadful "marriage game" and sticking to ONE girl.....just the thought of it frightens me.....no thank you.

Tivo32
08-16-2012, 11:53 PM
Overall, I have a very bleak outlook on marriage, I find it unnecessary, too many cons and not enough pros for me to want to do it.

I'd be interested to know, since we're right around the same age, what are you pros and cons for marriage? :)

JustAlex
08-17-2012, 12:27 AM
I'd be interested to know, since we're right around the same age, what are you pros and cons for marriage? :)
Sure.

But before I answer I want to let you know I'm not a "normal" person when it comes to this stuff, for example, I don't believe in "true love"....I think it's silly to believe that two complete strangers can experience "true love"....I believe they get accustomed to each other and slowly tolerate each other long enough to make a commitment to stay together.

Secondly, I believe that a lot of people that get married do so without actually believing that they will stay together until death.....I think most of them go into it with the mindset of "Well, we'll see how things go, let's give it a try".


Having said all of that the only "Pro" I can find for marriage is the government benefits that come along with it....that's it.

Like I said, If I want a family I can do so without marriage, if I want to stay together with someone else and play the "husband and wife game" I can also do that without marriage.


So what are my "Cons"?

The second you get married the chances of getting divorced are instantly a very good possibility, and financially a divorce can literally cripple a man or woman.

More cons....the fact that I'm making a commitment to being with ONE girl for the rest of my life is absolutely frightening to me.

I'm not saying I'm some super playboy that has illicit affairs with a lot of girls, but at the same time I don't want to be tied down.


Finally another con I can list is that I simply don't like the ideology of marriage, as an atheist I don't see it as a union from god and since I don't believe in "True love", what exactly is my purpose of doing it?

Zimbow
08-17-2012, 01:47 AM
I'm engaged as well and set to marry March of 2013. I've read through your post Alex and I thank you for a honest reply. I too can honestly say that after I read through your pros and cons, I feel even more sure about the idea of marriage for me. Thanks!

Wickabee
08-17-2012, 01:51 AM
Alex, I'm gonna bet con #2 is the entire reason you say that. Sure you have separate, thought out reasoning beyond that but it probably all leads back to a fear of commitment. There's no need to be insulting as I found post #13 to be. There's nothing wrong with a fear of commitment. Most males have it built into them. Our instinct is to inseminate as many females as possible so the very idea of marriage goes against our instincts. Somewhere along the line man evolved past this as part of our moral code. Whatever line of evolution you're on is fine, but there's no need to insult those who are ahead of you. You may think you're further evolving but you're really running on the most basic of instincts: Further the Species.

(I'm mostly teasing you, but you were a little condescending before

JustAlex
08-17-2012, 01:57 AM
I'm engaged as well and set to marry March of 2013. I've read through your post Alex and I thank you for a honest reply. I too can honestly say that after I read through your pros and cons, I feel even more sure about the idea of marriage for me. Thanks!
LOL, happy I could help :thumb:

Seriously though, congrats on your engagement, marriage is definitely not for me but I know that to most other people it is a joyous time when someone is about to get married.

The only thing I care about is that we can all find our own happiness.

JustAlex
08-17-2012, 02:06 AM
Alex, I'm gonna bet con #2 is the entire reason you say that. Sure you have separate, thought out reasoning beyond that but it probably all leads back to a fear of commitment. There's no need to be insulting as I found post #13 to be. There's nothing wrong with a fear of commitment. Most males have it built into them. Our instinct is to inseminate as many females as possible so the very idea of marriage goes against our instincts. Somewhere along the line man evolved past this as part of our moral code. Whatever line of evolution you're on is fine, but there's no need to insult those who are ahead of you. You may think you're further evolving but you're really running on the most basic of instincts: Further the Species.

(I'm mostly teasing you, but you were a little condescending before
Fair enough, and yes I was indeed condescending.

LOL....even I have to laugh at myself: "I guess I'll remain a bachelor for the rest of my life having sex with any girl that allows me".....HAHAHA, that's an awesome fantasy to hold on to, don't you think?


I agree with your comment fully, It's very logical and there's really nothing I can say against it.

I know my way of thinking in this matter is very different than most, but then again my thinking in most matters are indeed different than the majority and I have come to accept that about myself.

I will only say that even though you are dead on about the "commitment" factor of marriage, I really must emphasize that I honestly don't believe in "true love".

I just don't......and BTW, my parents are 61 and 62 and are still married, 35 years and counting.

Do I believe they truly love each other?

Honestly.....I don't really want to answer that question because if I really think about it, I won't like the answer.

Wickabee
08-17-2012, 02:15 AM
You may be in the minority, but not the vast minority.

mrveggieman
08-17-2012, 09:27 AM
Great posts so far. What do you guys think about shacking up before marriage? What are the pros and cons? Have any of you shacked up before you got married?

cbuskstwar
08-17-2012, 10:46 AM
I think I'm in the same boat as Alex, I just cant see being married, to many of my friends and family have had bad experiences with marriage.


Sure.

But before I answer I want to let you know I'm not a "normal" person when it comes to this stuff, for example, I don't believe in "true love"....I think it's silly to believe that two complete strangers can experience "true love"....I believe they get accustomed to each other and slowly tolerate each other long enough to make a commitment to stay together.

Secondly, I believe that a lot of people that get married do so without actually believing that they will stay together until death.....I think most of them go into it with the mindset of "Well, we'll see how things go, let's give it a try".


Having said all of that the only "Pro" I can find for marriage is the government benefits that come along with it....that's it.

Like I said, If I want a family I can do so without marriage, if I want to stay together with someone else and play the "husband and wife game" I can also do that without marriage.


So what are my "Cons"?

The second you get married the chances of getting divorced are instantly a very good possibility, and financially a divorce can literally cripple a man or woman.

More cons....the fact that I'm making a commitment to being with ONE girl for the rest of my life is absolutely frightening to me.

I'm not saying I'm some super playboy that has illicit affairs with a lot of girls, but at the same time I don't want to be tied down.


Finally another con I can list is that I simply don't like the ideology of marriage, as an atheist I don't see it as a union from god and since I don't believe in "True love", what exactly is my purpose of doing it?

schwood
08-17-2012, 11:07 AM
I truly respect every person's ideas. With that said, I also have my own ideas on all topics discussed here...

The financial liability of 'having sex with any girl that allows me" may turn into much more of a financial liability than a divorce would ever cause you.

I will also be honest, my wife and I were married by a Justice of the Peace to the shagrin (sp?) of many of her family members. But that was our choice, and we both agreed that we did not have to get married in a 'church' to show our love for each other.

Also, I will quite frank, the fact that you don't think that 'true love' exists is kind of a sad state as I see it. And it may affect your ability to make an emotional attachment to a partner. And I can be completely honest, there is something called 'true love' because I can honestly tell you I have it. And I would bet that there are others out there that can tell you that they have found it too. My wife and I are truly in love, and she is quite honestly the best thing that has ever happened to me.

Again, this is not me trying to talk you into anything and certainly not me meaning to be condescending. It is just one person's idea of marriage (and inherently family) and how precious and special it can truly be. I think this is a very good topic for discussion and think it is extremely interesting to see everyone's ideas on the subject. And it is also important to keep it as a discussion and not as a personal attack of anyone's beliefs or thoughts on the topics at hand.

cbuskstwar
08-17-2012, 11:18 AM
I could come back with some funny statement about "true love" but I've personal haven't experienced that in my 42 years of life. Maybe I missed the chance years ago, not sure.

Star_Cards
08-17-2012, 12:03 PM
:thumb: to a positive, uplifting thread! We need more of these around here.

One thing that has always stuck with me that I plan on remember when I get married (I'm 24 now and dating the girl I would like to marry in the very near future) was an interview with Will Smith. They asked him at the time how he was able to keep his marriage steady when so many in Hollywood were getting divorces. He answered "Divorce simply is never an option for us."

didn't will and jada split up last year?

joee5
08-17-2012, 12:03 PM
everyone should try it once

Star_Cards
08-17-2012, 12:10 PM
Well, I personally believe marriage is wholesomely TERRIBLE.....if I want to make a family, I can do so without marriage, If I love someone....I can do so without making a nonsense commitment to be together until one of us dies.

However for you guys that do in fact want to partake in such an outdated ritual, that is great and of course my stance is that I believe ALL consenting adults should be able to marry whatever gender or transgender they prefer.

Overall, I have a very bleak outlook on marriage, I find it unnecessary, too many cons and not enough pros for me to want to do it.

yeah, I guess I'll remain a bachelor for the rest of my life having sex with any girl that allows me, instead of the dreadful "marriage game" and sticking to ONE girl.....just the thought of it frightens me.....no thank you.

I agree in the sense that I don't need a marriage to legitimize a relationship. I would however marry a girl if I wanted to be with her and it was important to her. For me there's just something about the process I guess. I think it may be more about how other people see you and your relationship. That's not said in the sense that I worry about what other people think completely, but can understand that to some people it's important to be married. It is an action taken based on your seriousness to a relationship and not just verbal. If I ever get married it definitely wouldn't have any religious base or anything.

alex, I think it may scare you simply because you think of marriage in the context of specific girls that you have dated. Because you are scared I think that just says you haven't found the right one. I've been engaged one and with another woman I felt like I was ready to marry but it ended up just not working out on both counts. to me if the right girl comes along I can see myself marrying her.

Star_Cards
08-17-2012, 12:13 PM
as far as the discussion of true love, I'm not sure what each person means when they say that. are they saying it in a sense of fate or having sole mates and so on. I don't believe that at all. I feel there are many different people out there that an individual could be a good match for. True love in the sense that something was meant to be is something I do not believe exists outside of the fact that there is always someone out there that each of us would get along with and have a successful relationship.

drtom2005
08-17-2012, 12:27 PM
Well, I personally believe marriage is wholesomely TERRIBLE.....if I want to make a family, I can do so without marriage, If I love someone....I can do so without making a nonsense commitment to be together until one of us dies.

However for you guys that do in fact want to partake in such an outdated ritual, that is great and of course my stance is that I believe ALL consenting adults should be able to marry whatever gender or transgender they prefer.

Overall, I have a very bleak outlook on marriage, I find it unnecessary, too many cons and not enough pros for me to want to do it.

yeah, I guess I'll remain a bachelor for the rest of my life having sex with any girl that allows me, instead of the dreadful "marriage game" and sticking to ONE girl.....just the thought of it frightens me.....no thank you.

Alex, once you get a really good job, you'll want to get married to someone. Too many tax benefits. The government kind of forces people to get married. I am not married and will not get married until I find the right person who understands my me ( If people couldn't tell, I'm slightly opinionated and think I'm right most of time. LOL).

But when it happens, I'm down. Too many benefits to men. We live longer. Can have someone to be their for us and us for them. Possible kids. Money doesn't matter as much, but the tax benefits are great.

I do not believe in the concept of true love shown in the media. In my mind, true love is being willing to work out things, being loyal to your partner, and being kind to them. The initial feelings in marriage and relationships wax and wane.

mrveggieman
08-17-2012, 12:28 PM
everyone should try it once


What marriage or divorce? :sign0020:

Star_Cards
08-17-2012, 12:30 PM
Great posts so far. What do you guys think about shacking up before marriage? What are the pros and cons? Have any of you shacked up before you got married?

I haven't, but would. I actually view it as a typical step in a relationship. It helps test out if you can handle how each person lives. I think the aspect of living together isn't really grasped until you actually do live together. That would be the biggest pro to living together before getting married.

you'd also be able to save on rent. :)

mrveggieman
08-17-2012, 12:32 PM
I agree in the sense that I don't need a marriage to legitimize a relationship. I would however marry a girl if I wanted to be with her and it was important to her. For me there's just something about the process I guess. I think it may be more about how other people see you and your relationship. That's not said in the sense that I worry about what other people think completely, but can understand that to some people it's important to be married. It is an action taken based on your seriousness to a relationship and not just verbal. If I ever get married it definitely wouldn't have any religious base or anything.

alex, I think it may scare you simply because you think of marriage in the context of specific girls that you have dated. Because you are scared I think that just says you haven't found the right one. I've been engaged one and with another woman I felt like I was ready to marry but it ended up just not working out on both counts. to me if the right girl comes along I can see myself marrying her.


What if your future wife was religious and wanted to have the marriage in her place of worship? Is that a deal breaker for you?

joee5
08-17-2012, 12:35 PM
What if your future wife was religious and wanted to have the marriage in her place of worship? Is that a deal breaker for you?

well, men rule the roost in my family so it'll be in my house and mine alone. Some men are weak and will give in to demands but not here.

mrveggieman
08-17-2012, 12:40 PM
I haven't, but would. I actually view it as a typical step in a relationship. It helps test out if you can handle how each person lives. I think the aspect of living together isn't really grasped until you actually do live together. That would be the biggest pro to living together before getting married.

you'd also be able to save on rent. :)

I tend to agree. My now wife and I also lived together for a couple of years before we got married. I am curious to know why people say couples who shack up before marriage are more likely to get divorced.

drtom2005
08-17-2012, 12:48 PM
I tend to agree. My now wife and I also lived together for a couple of years before we got married. I am curious to know why people say couples who shack up before marriage are more likely to get divorced.

It is based on co-habitation studies. Although those studies may be outdated. In the past, people who co-habited had more risk factors for divorce to begin with. Personally, this is my opinion, I think it may prime the brain to think that you can leave even after getting married.

I'll never say never ,but I'm against it. It may be my previous Catholic upbringing still affecting me, though.

ensbergcollector
08-17-2012, 12:50 PM
good marriage quote by jack benny:

"my wife mary and I have been married for 47 years and not once have we had an argument serious enough to consider divorce; murder, yes, but not divorce."

Star_Cards
08-17-2012, 12:53 PM
What if your future wife was religious and wanted to have the marriage in her place of worship? Is that a deal breaker for you?

hmm... I can't say 100%, but I'd think that if religion is that important for a would be bride, we probably wouldn't have gotten together in the first place. Usually if it's that important to a person they wouldn't date an atheist and their religion would be such a large part of their life I wouldn't want to date them. Usually in those cases there is tension about things like going to church and that sort of stuff even outside of the difference of religious opinion/ideals.

Star_Cards
08-17-2012, 12:55 PM
I tend to agree. My now wife and I also lived together for a couple of years before we got married. I am curious to know why people say couples who shack up before marriage are more likely to get divorced.

I'm not sure about that. My main thinking about why people think it's bad is simply because if you are living with the person you are typically having premarital sex. That isn't an issue in my book so I say if you are going to get married you should live together first, but it just may not be for everyone.

mrveggieman
08-17-2012, 12:59 PM
It is based on co-habitation studies. Although those studies may be outdated. In the past, people who co-habited had more risk factors for divorce to begin with. Personally, this is my opinion, I think it may prime the brain to think that you can leave even after getting married.

I'll never say never ,but I'm against it. It may be my previous Catholic upbringing still affecting me, though.


Yeah you can only take some "studies" with a grain of salt. I have worked in the market research field before and you can pretty much rigg your data to make it say whatever you want it to say.

habsheaven
08-17-2012, 01:15 PM
I lived with my girlfriend for 6 months before we married. It is an eye-opener. I can't imagine going into a marriage blind without that glimpse of reality. My younger sister on the other hand, went from our parents home right into her new husband's home and she has been happily married for 20 years now.

shrewsbury
08-17-2012, 04:12 PM
I have known my wife since she was 14 and I was 17, didn't date, I felt I was too old for her. When she graduated she looked me up and we have been together since, and now are in our 21st year of marriage. we have had some very hard times, but now all the kids are grown and gone, and we are almost starting over. being an empty nester is harder than I thought!

and I would like to comment and ask why would anyone consider moral sex as you have to be married? i would think anyone who cares for someone and not using them for sex would be moral.

schwood
08-17-2012, 04:34 PM
As for the 'true love', I guess I would say that it just 'feels right' to both parties. I believe there are multiple people out there that 'might' be a good match for you, and I think sometimes people may think they found it, and they didn't. And quite honestly, you may never meet any of them. But keeping an open mind, and allowing things to happen, well, that will help in whatever your relationship quest might be.

I also see some, that at the first sign of any conflict, well, they quit. While others work and work and work, and it just does not work out. And I know I have friends, that are still married, and quite honestly living in misery. I guess I would say I love my wife, and I married her to give her a lifelong commitment to her and to our family, and anyone else can make whatever comments or think whatever they want about it. But, all I can say is that it is what is to each person individually. Whether anyone does or does not want to believe it. Others may think love at first sight, or fate, or whatever you want to call it. I just know I am in the right relationship, and quite honestly, it does not matter what anyone else might say or think.

Also, just one question, and I know I am all over the spectrum here, so, as an atheist you don't believe in a higher power of any kind? Again, this is not a shot at you, it is a question. I consider myself an agnostic. I believe in a higher power, but I just don't know what it might be. Sorry, just trying to understand peoples ideas.

This really is an interesting discussion and would love to see it continue. I just don't want someone to come in here bashing. That is when these threads always go bad. Let's keep this up. Thanks everyone. I truly value everybody's thoughts and ideas on this topic.

JustAlex
08-17-2012, 05:59 PM
Ok, I wanted to quickly explain why I don't believe in "True Love".

I believe this concept is rooted in the idea that we are "destined" or "Fated" to be with the person who we truly love on this earth.

The reason why I reject that type of thinking is because I also don't believe in "destiny" or "Fate".

I want to share my parents story of how they came to know each other.....When my mom was 20 she began to work at an industrial factory back in her native country, she would take the bus to get to her job 5 days a week.

She noticed that a young man would frequently be in the same bus at the same time she was there, the young man was taking the same route as her to get to the university where he was studying. Weeks went by before she finally talked to this young man, Eventually they turned into friends and before not too long they began dating.....the rest is history.

She explained that it was FATE that they would meet up at the same time, on the same bus and they were meant to be together.

I heard this story and thought it was an amazing encounter that two complete strangers would eventually "Fall in love" and I would come into this world because of their love, it put many things into perspective.

HOWEVER....this is NOT Fate.

It is simple chance and coincidence that they met up in that bus, they both took the same route at the same time day after day, eventually one of them became interested in the other and one thing lead to another.....a domino effect.

As much as I am grateful for my parents, I don't believe there is anything special about their encounter.

The same could be told about the many different love stories that you hear when two complete stranger find each other and something "clicks".

If "fate" is real then it means that I am not in control of my life and I refuse to accept that, life is all about statistics, chance, and coincidences, nothing is planned in advanced.

Wickabee
08-17-2012, 06:11 PM
You're right alex. Disney true love doesn't exist. Real love does, though

JustAlex
08-17-2012, 06:14 PM
You're right alex. Disney true love doesn't exist. Real love does, though
Haha....actually Disney true love would be awesome if it was real :D:

As for "real love", I guess I'm agnostic on that subject...

joee5
08-17-2012, 06:18 PM
true love only in the movies.

schwood
08-18-2012, 01:07 PM
As much as you do or don't want to believe it, it exists. And I guess I don't believe in the fairy tale love, I believe in real love, which I consider true love. Nothing to do with fate.

And as for being agnostic about real love, I would only ask, do you believe your parent's have 'real love'?

Wickabee
08-18-2012, 02:36 PM
Everyone is agnostic towards real love until they find it. You just haven't found it, alex.

Wickabee
08-18-2012, 04:20 PM
I believe this concept is rooted in the idea that we are "destined" or "Fated" to be with the person who we truly love on this earth.


This is wrong, alex. Many people believe it, but that doesn't mean that's really what it is. I think you're treating this like religion/God. I'll explain.

You look around and think, "God cannot be what anyone is telling me it is, so I believe there is no God."
I look around and think, "God cannot be what anyone is telling me, so I believe all religion is wrong."

See the difference?

I think it's the same here. You don't believe in fate and most people call true love "fate", therefor you don't believe in true love.
I don't believe in fate, therefor I think true love is different than what I've been told, not that it doesn't exist.

Many people equate "true" love with "love at first sight" but it's not. I feel my wife and I have true, real love, but to be honest, when I first met her I couldn't stand her. Love at first sight is just that. It shows up quickly, it leaves quickly and it was probably never actually love to begin with. Real love takes time, effort, honesty. Love at first sight only takes attraction. Love at first sight rarely works, as much as we're told it's everywhere. You can't love someone without knowing them and you can't know someone at first sight.

So don't discount true love because you see it as chained to fate. It's not.

JustAlex
08-18-2012, 06:35 PM
As much as you do or don't want to believe it, it exists. And I guess I don't believe in the fairy tale love, I believe in real love, which I consider true love. Nothing to do with fate.

And as for being agnostic about real love, I would only ask, do you believe your parent's have 'real love'?
That's a difficult question to answer and unfortunately I really can't since I don't know what's going on in my parents heads.

Don't get me wrong, I DO believe in Love.....I would have to be a pretty depressing individual if I didn't believe in that, what I don't believe in is "True Love" aka "unconditional love".

Humans are selfish to the core it is an instinct that is very hard to shed.

Now.....a question for you: If fate has nothing to do with love, do you believe that an individual is able to "truly love" more than one person?

Doesn't that diminish the meaning of "true love", if I can "truly love" more than one individual how true can that love really be?

JustAlex
08-18-2012, 06:46 PM
This is wrong, alex. Many people believe it, but that doesn't mean that's really what it is. I think you're treating this like religion/God. I'll explain.

You look around and think, "God cannot be what anyone is telling me it is, so I believe there is no God."
I look around and think, "God cannot be what anyone is telling me, so I believe all religion is wrong."

See the difference?

I think it's the same here. You don't believe in fate and most people call true love "fate", therefor you don't believe in true love.
I don't believe in fate, therefor I think true love is different than what I've been told, not that it doesn't exist.

Many people equate "true" love with "love at first sight" but it's not. I feel my wife and I have true, real love, but to be honest, when I first met her I couldn't stand her. Love at first sight is just that. It shows up quickly, it leaves quickly and it was probably never actually love to begin with. Real love takes time, effort, honesty. Love at first sight only takes attraction. Love at first sight rarely works, as much as we're told it's everywhere. You can't love someone without knowing them and you can't know someone at first sight.

So don't discount true love because you see it as chained to fate. It's not.
Once again you have made me think....in a good way.

I don't want to ask you an awkward question so I'll ask the question to myself.

If I were with a girl who I believed I truly loved, let me test that love:

If I could get away with cheating on her with the most ideal girl my head can come up with, would I do it?

I have told this question before with every girl I have ever been with the answer is always the same.....YES!

Of course this is where you will say that I have not met the the right person, correct?

So, like I said before.....I don't believe in fate, I don't believe there is a "right person" for every human on earth, so do you see the conflict?

How can I resolve this conflict without a contridiction.

Here is the equation:

Fate and Destiny do not exists in my worldview.

I have admitted to myself that I would cheat on my girlfriend if there was the possibility of getting away with it.

So this must mean that I have not met the "right person".

However that conflicts with my denial of "fate".

Conclusion, I CAN love a girl but that love is conditional and ultimately flawed.

Wickabee
08-18-2012, 07:39 PM
I never said there was one right person either.

JustAlex
08-18-2012, 07:52 PM
I never said there was one right person either.
I guess.

And I'm also guessing that my theoretical question would not work on everyone.

I'm sure there are some people who would say that they would not cheat on their GF/Wife even if they could get away with it.

Then again, I must question that response since humans are indeed not perfect and are driven by desire.

Wickabee
08-18-2012, 09:48 PM
It's a matter of finding someone worth it, not "the one". That's the difference. There is no "one" only "ones". You'll find one eventually.

habsheaven
08-18-2012, 11:53 PM
There's no such thing as "getting away with it". Whether my wife found out or not, the guilt would destroy me. I also cannot imagine the pain that would cause both my wife and my children and there's no desire strong enough to ever let me risk it.

I often compare it to cheating at a sport or a game. What's the point of winning if you know you cheated? That has never made any sense to me.

AUTaxMan
08-18-2012, 11:59 PM
There's no such thing as "getting away with it". Whether my wife found out or not, the guilt would destroy me. I also cannot imagine the pain that would cause both my wife and my children and there's no desire strong enough to ever let me risk it.

Absolutely right.

JustAlex
08-19-2012, 01:28 AM
There's no such thing as "getting away with it". Whether my wife found out or not, the guilt would destroy me. I also cannot imagine the pain that would cause both my wife and my children and there's no desire strong enough to ever let me risk it.
You have a good heart, a great trait to have.


I often compare it to cheating at a sport or a game. What's the point of winning if you know you cheated? That has never made any sense to me.
Well, there's no point if there is nothing to gain.....however if you gain fame, money, adoration then that's different.

Again, this is all under the assumption that you won't get caught.

It's like asking someone if they would rob a bank if they knew they won't get caught, a lot of people would say yes.


Human beings are creatures of habit, they don't break it unless there is something to gain, and usually it has to be something worthwhile.

In my mind I can come up with my perfect ideal woman.....long hair, slender body, light tan skin color, etc.

If you told me that I could spend one night with this ideal woman with absolutely no consequences......this is the equivilent to telling me that I could rob a bank and not get caught.

Would I feel some guilt?

Yes, I probably would, but my instinct, my desire, my impulsiveness, my selfish human core........would give in.....after all, I am not perfect.

schwood
08-19-2012, 12:04 PM
That's a difficult question to answer and unfortunately I really can't since I don't know what's going on in my parents heads.

Don't get me wrong, I DO believe in Love.....I would have to be a pretty depressing individual if I didn't believe in that, what I don't believe in is "True Love" aka "unconditional love".

Humans are selfish to the core it is an instinct that is very hard to shed.

Now.....a question for you: If fate has nothing to do with love, do you believe that an individual is able to "truly love" more than one person?

Doesn't that diminish the meaning of "true love", if I can "truly love" more than one individual how true can that love really be?

Completely agree if you haven't seen it, it is a hard question to answer. Why I asked cuz I certainly can't answer it.

Here is one I would absolutely diagree with you on. And honestly, I don't think there is a debate for 'unconditional love', in a particular case. When you have a child, you will know what unconditional love is. There is no way around it.

I think that we understand true love as two completely different things, as you have defined it as unconditional love, and I do not believe that. I don't think true love is something as simple as that. I think that true love is more something that you learn with a particular person. And with that knowledge about a person, their belief system, and their moral direction, that you realize 'Wow, this is love'. Therefore, to answer your question, I think that one person could potentially find multiple people that they truly love in that way. For instance, a man and a woman are married. They live a life together for 20 years, they share happiness and sadness. Children. A home and a life. One of them dies. I believe that a person can find another person whom they truly love. It might not be exactly the same as thier first love, but it can certainly be true love.

I guess what I can say, if you find a partner that you truly have feelings for, you share the same morals, beliefs and direction in life, and you want to get married, then, definitely do it. Again, all I would recommend is that you go into any relationship with an open mind, as people (all of us) change over time, and always always always keep an open line of communication to that partner. This is not a 'phone' or 'text' line, you need to be face to face and you need to be able to talk things through. Again, more my ideas and things I have gathered from my life knowledge.

Ya know what, I have to say, this is one of the better threads I have ever been involved in with no bashing thus far. I see too much thread bashing these days, and it is quite honestly a huge joke. Thanks to all of you. I will continue to check back and discuss here.

One unrelated question, do you guys trade at all, cuz you all seem like reasonable people I would gladly trade with.

Wickabee
08-19-2012, 02:25 PM
One unrelated question, do you guys trade at all, cuz you all seem like reasonable people I would gladly trade with.

I trade hockey, but I'm a Canucks fan so...
(jk)

mrveggieman
08-20-2012, 09:38 AM
One unrelated question, do you guys trade at all, cuz you all seem like reasonable people I would gladly trade with.

Yeah I trade. I mainly have football and basketball but I would be interested in hockey, garbage pail kids, comic books and possibly nascar as well.

mrveggieman
08-20-2012, 09:46 AM
I guess.

And I'm also guessing that my theoretical question would not work on everyone.

I'm sure there are some people who would say that they would not cheat on their GF/Wife even if they could get away with it.

Then again, I must question that response since humans are indeed not perfect and are driven by desire.

Speaking of cheating I'm not going to call anyone out and ask if they ever cheated on their spouse. You can answer if you like but the question that I am going to ask is would you forgive your spouse if she cheated on you? Or even worse if she cheated and got pregnant by another man?

mrveggieman
08-21-2012, 02:35 PM
Wow it looks like everyone on here has an adultry free marriage.

schwood
08-21-2012, 02:41 PM
Wow it looks like everyone on here has an adultry free marriage.

I do.

Wickabee
08-21-2012, 02:43 PM
Wow it looks like everyone on here has an adultry free marriage.

...because no one answered your hypothetical question?

Explain how one means the other.

(and by the way, I do too)

mrveggieman
08-21-2012, 03:20 PM
...because no one answered your hypothetical question?

Explain how one means the other.

(and by the way, I do too)

LOL. I'm not trying to get anyone to snitch on themselves but was looking to see what someone would do if it happened to them. If I found out that my wife was cheating I'm not sure what I would do. My first instinct would be to tell her where to go but then after calming down I would access the situation to see if it is worth saving. No one wants to go through a divorce but what is worse than that is going through a misreable marriage.

texansrangerfan73
08-21-2012, 03:36 PM
Am I morally wrong because my ol lady & I have been living together for over 10 years, have 3 children together & don't plan on separating til death makes us? Our state recognizes us as Common-Law husband & wife. I just see the need to be married especially since over 60% of all marriages end in divorce.

pghin08
08-21-2012, 03:49 PM
Am I morally wrong because my ol lady & I have been living together for over 10 years, have 3 children together & don't plan on separating til death makes us? Our state recognizes us as Common-Law husband & wife. I just see the need to be married especially since over 60% of all marriages end in divorce.

Nope, doesn't make you morally wrong in the slightest.

Wickabee
08-21-2012, 04:27 PM
LOL. I'm not trying to get anyone to snitch on themselves but was looking to see what someone would do if it happened to them. If I found out that my wife was cheating I'm not sure what I would do. My first instinct would be to tell her where to go but then after calming down I would access the situation to see if it is worth saving. No one wants to go through a divorce but what is worse than that is going through a misreable marriage.

That's just it, you can't really answer a question like that as there are a lot of variables. Was a one time thing or ongoing? Is it with a friend, co-worker or just a random dude or dudes?
It's a case-by-case basis. I can tell you what my initial reaction would be, but I can't say what I would do.

mrveggieman
08-21-2012, 04:31 PM
Am I morally wrong because my ol lady & I have been living together for over 10 years, have 3 children together & don't plan on separating til death makes us? Our state recognizes us as Common-Law husband & wife. I just see the need to be married especially since over 60% of all marriages end in divorce.

It depends on your set of morrals. If you don't believe that shaking up is a sin then you are well within your rights to continue on with what you are doing. However if either you or your lady are wanting something more then that is something that you and her will have to sit down and address.

Wickabee
08-21-2012, 04:36 PM
Am I morally wrong because my ol lady & I have been living together for over 10 years, have 3 children together & don't plan on separating til death makes us? Our state recognizes us as Common-Law husband & wife. I just see the need to be married especially since over 60% of all marriages end in divorce.

I have a question. When someone mentions a stat like this one, does it actually have anything to do with marriage.

I mean, I know you can't get divorced without being married first, but do people who live together but do not sign that piece of paper have a better chance at going the distance?
Basically I'm asking, and there's really no way to answer, is it that 60% of marriages end in divorce or 60% of couples eventually break up?

schwood
08-21-2012, 04:47 PM
Speaking of cheating I'm not going to call anyone out and ask if they ever cheated on their spouse. You can answer if you like but the question that I am going to ask is would you forgive your spouse if she cheated on you? Or even worse if she cheated and got pregnant by another man?

My first instinct is that I would tell her to hit the road. I was up front with my wife, as she was, that if there was any cheating, that would be the end of it. I think it is completely unacceptable in a loving trusting relationship. Again, this is just my two cents. Some may disagree. Which is totally cool. Just my take on it.


Am I morally wrong because my ol lady & I have been living together for over 10 years, have 3 children together & don't plan on separating til death makes us? Our state recognizes us as Common-Law husband & wife. I just see the need to be married especially since over 60% of all marriages end in divorce.

I don't think so at all. I lived with my wife for a year before we got married. Like it was said before by someone else, I have always felt that living together was a logical step if you were planning on getting marrie. I always believed that living together was something that can put a lot of pressure on a relationship and something you need to 'feel out' before taking that final step in a relationship if that is where you want to go.


I have a question. When someone mentions a stat like this one, does it actually have anything to do with marriage.

I mean, I know you can't get divorced without being married first, but do people who live together but do not sign that piece of paper have a better chance at going the distance?
Basically I'm asking, and there's really no way to answer, is it that 60% of marriages end in divorce or 60% of couples eventually break up?

I would say, that this is about impossible to tell. I just don't think there is any study on this. I will throw this out there, and this is kind of the extreme, but has anyone ever been in one and only one relationship in their lives? And also, for those that have lived with someone and not been married, have they only ever lived with one partner in their life? I just think it would be tough to come up with a set of parameters to allow for a given relationship to be considered in some sort of study I guess. Not sure that even makes sense, but wanted to get my thoughts down.

Again, and I keep saying this, it is nice and refreshing to see a discussion on such a typically hot and debated topic stay tame and friendly. Especially with so many having such differing views. Let's keep this going this way.

Wickabee
08-21-2012, 05:14 PM
I would say, that this is about impossible to tell. I just don't think there is any study on this. I will throw this out there, and this is kind of the extreme, but has anyone ever been in one and only one relationship in their lives? And also, for those that have lived with someone and not been married, have they only ever lived with one partner in their life? I just think it would be tough to come up with a set of parameters to allow for a given relationship to be considered in some sort of study I guess. Not sure that even makes sense, but wanted to get my thoughts down.

Exactly my point. People love to say "More than half of all marriages end in divorce, so I'm never getting married" as if 100% of relationships without marriage go the distance. It might turn out that 60% of marriages may end in divorce, but 90% of all relationships end in a break-up. That would make marriage look pretty good. Since we don't have stats on all relationships, pulling out the 60% divorce rate is pretty much meaningless.

schwood
08-21-2012, 05:53 PM
Exactly my point. People love to say "More than half of all marriages end in divorce, so I'm never getting married" as if 100% of relationships without marriage go the distance. It might turn out that 60% of marriages may end in divorce, but 90% of all relationships end in a break-up. That would make marriage look pretty good. Since we don't have stats on all relationships, pulling out the 60% divorce rate is pretty much meaningless.

Gotcha. Didn't think about it that way. Good point.

Interesting topic to think about.

joee5
08-21-2012, 05:55 PM
if I could do it all over again, I would stay single and tell my kids to do the same thing. Just saying is all.

mrveggieman
08-22-2012, 08:34 AM
if I could do it all over again, I would stay single and tell my kids to do the same thing. Just saying is all.

Wow, interesting....

texansrangerfan73
08-22-2012, 01:57 PM
Exactly my point. People love to say "More than half of all marriages end in divorce, so I'm never getting married" as if 100% of relationships without marriage go the distance. It might turn out that 60% of marriages may end in divorce, but 90% of all relationships end in a break-up. That would make marriage look pretty good. Since we don't have stats on all relationships, pulling out the 60% divorce rate is pretty much meaningless.

No it don't mean that non-married couple stay together forever but it does ensure that there is no alimony to pay & she or the other half isn't gonna take you to the cleaners. I was merely basing the 60% from statistics & from my own personal with my parents & many friends parents as I was growing up. We must also understand that when a couple become 1 heart that your/her or their debts become yours & yours become theirs.

Wickabee
08-22-2012, 01:59 PM
No it don't mean that non-married couple stay together forever but it does ensure that there is no alimony to pay & she or the other half isn't gonna take you to the cleaners. I was merely basing the 60% from statistics & from my own personal with my parents & many friends parents as I was growing up. We must also understand that when a couple become 1 heart that your/her or their debts become yours & yours become theirs.

But if we take away all the financial aspects of marriage, we're left with a stat that means absolutely nothing.

mrveggieman
08-22-2012, 02:05 PM
No it don't mean that non-married couple stay together forever but it does ensure that there is no alimony to pay & she or the other half isn't gonna take you to the cleaners. I was merely basing the 60% from statistics & from my own personal with my parents & many friends parents as I was growing up. We must also understand that when a couple become 1 heart that your/her or their debts become yours & yours become theirs.


If you have a common law marriage and it ends Im pretty sure that one if not both parties could sue for alimony. I know that child support will come into play if children are involved.

texansrangerfan73
08-22-2012, 02:06 PM
But if we take away all the financial aspects of marriage, we're left with a stat that means absolutely nothing.

Ok forget the debts parts. Here is an eye opening site http://www.meninmarriage.com/article05.htm

texansrangerfan73
08-22-2012, 02:09 PM
If you have a common law marriage and it ends Im pretty sure that one if not both parties could sue for alimony. I know that child support will come into play if children are involved.

This is true even between boyfriend/girlfriend that don't live together or aren't common law married. I believe Texas threw out the alimony & splitting of possessions in common law marriages a few years back.

Wickabee
08-22-2012, 02:14 PM
Ok forget the debts parts. Here is an eye opening site http://www.meninmarriage.com/article05.htm

Interesting, though nothing shocking. Not sure what relevance it has here, though. The stats say nothing of marriage and everything of the average view of marriage, that being that it means nothing.

texansrangerfan73
08-22-2012, 02:26 PM
Interesting, though nothing shocking. Not sure what relevance it has here, though. The stats say nothing of marriage and everything of the average view of marriage, that being that it means nothing.

I'm not on here for the long haul but what it says it why alot of people don't get married & if they do & get divorce it shows or tells the affects on the children involved.



Drop in standard of living of females after divorce as of 2000: 45% (National Center of Health Statistics)
In 1996, children of divorce were 50% more likely than their counterparts from intact families to divorce. (National Center of Health Statistics)
Fatherless homes account for 63% of youth suicides, 90% of homeless/runaway children, 85% of children with behavior problems, 71% of high school dropouts, 85% of youths in prison, well over 50% of teen mothers. (National Center of Health Statistics)
(Journal of Marital and Family Therapy) Marital problems are associated with decreased work productivity, especially for men.

Wickabee
08-22-2012, 02:35 PM
I'm not on here for the long haul but what it says it why alot of people don't get married & if they do & get divorce it shows or tells the affects on the children involved.



Drop in standard of living of females after divorce as of 2000: 45% (National Center of Health Statistics)
In 1996, children of divorce were 50% more likely than their counterparts from intact families to divorce. (National Center of Health Statistics)
Fatherless homes account for 63% of youth suicides, 90% of homeless/runaway children, 85% of children with behavior problems, 71% of high school dropouts, 85% of youths in prison, well over 50% of teen mothers. (National Center of Health Statistics)
(Journal of Marital and Family Therapy) Marital problems are associated with decreased work productivity, especially for men.



Again, nothing super surprising there. And again, says nothing of marriage, but of divorce.

mrveggieman
08-22-2012, 02:54 PM
This is true even between boyfriend/girlfriend that don't live together or aren't common law married. I believe Texas threw out the alimony & splitting of possessions in common law marriages a few years back.

That's what's up.

pr0phet
08-30-2012, 12:26 AM
I have always wanted to reply to this topic being in my current position but I have never had the time, until tonight. Be forewarned, this reply could get quite lengthy
A few points I would like to discuss, I am going to try for a small story/introduce my current position as we go along.

The first point I would like to mention is the whole "true love" aspect. My fiancee and I feel that we have a true love relationship. We meet a ton of traits that each other was looking for, but we are not perfect for each other. Both she and I have discussed things we like and don't like about each other and neither of us have had trouble discussing the facts. In the end we know that this is meant to be. We are both happier with each other than we are without each other. Our story didn't involve meeting on a bus, or getting that dream date. We actually knew each other through college and occasionally talked. Out of the blue I asked her on a date and things continued to take off from there.

*Personal thought*
Your dream individual, just like everything else, will change as life goes on. I entered college thinking that I would worry about my college life and get my education done and over with as quickly as possible. I didn't expect to meet somebody in my second semester of college. I entered as a 24 year old knowing that it was time to put my nose to the grindstone, I am now thinking on a dual layer of graduation/wedding.

I also saw a lot about communication. We made it clear at a very early stage in our relationship. Communication has to be the biggest part of our foundation. We are both continually working on trying to open up at the necessary times to make sure the lack of communication never hurts us. As somebody who really enjoys writing, I understand how powerful words can be. With our dedication towards communication, I know our marriage will be strong. Both of us have become better people based on just this fact alone. By communicating, we were able to decide multiple things. One of the points we looked at was an early engagement. With multiple reasons I would not like to discuss in a public forum matter(PM's welcome to those who really want to know) we decided to get engaged rather quickly at just over 12 months. Our personalities match, our traits match and our time together is just more enjoyable. We felt that it was the right time to do things. Our engagement was also planned to be a longer engagement and we were going to wait until after college. The positives and the negatives were discussed on this and it continues to change to this date.

I also saw some discussions on moving in together. While I hoped for this, she is against it. I have pushed for this with multiple reasons, but the biggest being that she needs to reduce the stress from home. She made it clear, on numerous occasions, that it will not happen. I have supported her decision as well. Now she is telling me that her parents are saying that living alone for a year may help her out. I personally will believe it when I see it, but it goes to show that the changes do occur.

*Personal comment*
With the two of us being very quiet individuals, we appreciate the opportunity that is here. Neither of us never expected to get to this point. At the time of our first date, it was completely unexpected. We are both beginning to realize that things need to be done when they need to be done. Making plans, setting goals, setting future dates only assures you that it will remain on your mind. Our wedding will be an exception(but even then, plans consistently change). I am personally very grateful that I can articulate my thoughts very well, even if I have poor grammar. My ability to speak my mind along with her grit and determination will take us far. We have our plans in place and we hope that things will work out. We have discussed the good, the bad and even the worst case scenario with our future. No matter what happens, we look forward to doing it together.

If you survived it this far, thanks for reading. I am more then happy to share my stories with anybody who requests, but please understand that some issues will be discussed VIA private message. When I first saw this subject I was quite impressed at the overall positive discussions it brought forth and I really felt that I would have something to share. Seeing the different ages, views, backgrounds avoid negativity in such a strong manor is quite reassuring.

Thanks,
Jay

mrveggieman
09-07-2012, 03:08 PM
http://www.ivillage.com/having-affair-advice-cheating-and-marriage/6-b-477934?dst=iv%3AiVillage%3Ahaving-affair-advice-cheating-and-marriage-477934