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View Full Version : Illegal Immigrants, Not So Illegal



mikesilvia
08-19-2012, 09:00 AM
When you hear of people in Chicago sleeping on the sidewalk to be first in line in the morning, you may figure they are hoping to snag tickets for Lady Gaga or a Cubs World Series. But those were not the explanation Wednesday when thousands lined up at Navy Pier. They didn't want to get something. They wanted to avoid getting something: a deportation order.It was a scene that immediately put every American into one of two groups: those heartened by the throngs of illegal immigrants thirsting to stay in this country, and those appalled. It also framed a choice for voters, because the...

More... (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2012/08/19/illegal_immigrants_not_so_illegal_115145.html)

habsheaven
08-19-2012, 11:53 AM
This is a step in the right direction. How anyone can be against this is mind-boggling.

theonedru
08-19-2012, 03:33 PM
They want to come here to work so make them citizens. Let them work, collect their taxes and show the lazy part of society that leeches off the system what a shameful waste of space they are. I embrace anyone who wants to work hard to make something of themselves they are a lot more honorable than a lot of other citizens here.

angel0430
08-20-2012, 09:35 AM
Totally agree with this. You are studying, working and staying out of trouble. You have been here more than 5 yrs with a good record. Good move by the government.

tpeichel
08-20-2012, 11:05 AM
"You are studying, working and staying out of trouble."

You could say this about any number of recent college graduates who in this extremely tough job market will have more competition for scarce jobs from these illegals who now will pass e-verify.

We have a society that tells our kids that they have to go to college and they listened dutifully while taking on tens of thousands in debt. Now there are no jobs for them. This program does not help. Without jobs these kids are going to put off getting married and getting a house. This debt is going to be hanging over their heads for along time, but let's make sure we take care of illegals.

theonedru
08-20-2012, 11:23 AM
"You are studying, working and staying out of trouble."

You could say this about any number of recent college graduates who in this extremely tough job market will have more competition for scarce jobs from these illegals who now will pass e-verify.

We have a society that tells our kids that they have to go to college and they listened dutifully while taking on tens of thousands in debt. Now there are no jobs for them. This program does not help. Without jobs these kids are going to put off getting married and getting a house. This debt is going to be hanging over their heads for along time, but let's make sure we take care of illegals.

There are jobs out there for those who really want to work and do not see menial labor as beneath them

tpeichel
08-20-2012, 12:25 PM
There are jobs out there for those who really want to work and do not see menial labor as beneath them

Which these illegals will now be able to legally compete for.

Wickabee
08-20-2012, 12:59 PM
Which these illegals will now be able to legally compete for.

So do you want a population cap then?

tpeichel
08-20-2012, 01:46 PM
So do you want a population cap then?

For immigrants?

Wickabee
08-20-2012, 01:53 PM
For immigrants?

Of any sort. More people equals less jobs, right?

tpeichel
08-20-2012, 02:09 PM
Of any sort. More people equals less jobs, right?

You're doomed as a society if you don't replace your population. Look at Japan and Europe with their aging populations, it is going to be extremely challenging for the government to provide the benefits they've promised with fewer and fewer workers.

angel0430
08-20-2012, 02:09 PM
There are jobs out there for those who really want to work and do not see menial labor as beneath them

x 2

angel0430
08-20-2012, 02:15 PM
"You are studying, working and staying out of trouble."

You could say this about any number of recent college graduates who in this extremely tough job market will have more competition for scarce jobs from these illegals who now will pass e-verify.

We have a society that tells our kids that they have to go to college and they listened dutifully while taking on tens of thousands in debt. Now there are no jobs for them. This program does not help. Without jobs these kids are going to put off getting married and getting a house. This debt is going to be hanging over their heads for along time, but let's make sure we take care of illegals.

There are plenty of jobs for everyone. The bad thing is that most of the people you are talking about are not willing to do them. If you really need the money, you work on anything until you can find something better.

tpeichel
08-20-2012, 02:25 PM
There are plenty of jobs for everyone. The bad thing is that most of the people you are talking about are not willing to do them. If you really need the money, you work on anything until you can find something better.

Why has the percentage of people collecting a paycheck been on a downward trajectory then? Why has unemployment remained high?

http://static8.businessinsider.com/image/4fa437656bb3f7833f000000-590/chart-of-the-day-civilian-labor-force-participation-may-2012.jpg (http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-05-04/markets/31564143_1_unemployment-rate-labor-force-participation-reuters)

tpeichel
08-20-2012, 02:35 PM
Then there's this from the latest issue of Newsweek:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/08/19/niall-ferguson-on-why-barack-obama-needs-to-go.html
In an unguarded moment earlier this year, the president commented that the private sector of the economy was “doing fine.” Certainly, the stock market is well up (by 74 percent) relative to the close on Inauguration Day 2009. But the total number of private-sector jobs is still 4.3 million below the January 2008 peak. Meanwhile, since 2008, a staggering 3.6 million Americans have been added to Social Security’s disability insurance program. This is one of many ways unemployment is being concealed.

theonedru
08-20-2012, 02:39 PM
Why has the percentage of people collecting a paycheck been on a downward trajectory then? Why has unemployment remained high?

http://static8.businessinsider.com/image/4fa437656bb3f7833f000000-590/chart-of-the-day-civilian-labor-force-participation-may-2012.jpg (http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-05-04/markets/31564143_1_unemployment-rate-labor-force-participation-reuters)

Why do you not see more Americans in the fields and the kitchens, picking produce ad scrubbing dishes or cleaning hotel rooms? Because they would rather be a parasite on society then submit themselves to do that kind of work. In all honesty lazy people should just be allowed to starve if they are unwilling to do work. These immigrants coming in are not taking jobs away from anyone, that's just a lie people say instead of admitting the truth, we just plain do not want to do them thats why you see minorities in the kitchens, the fields and so on.

Wickabee
08-20-2012, 02:43 PM
There are plenty of jobs for everyone. The bad thing is that most of the people you are talking about are not willing to do them. If you really need the money, you work on anything until you can find something better.

I believe it was Bill Gates who said No one is above flipping burgers.

tpeichel
08-20-2012, 03:03 PM
I believe it was Bill Gates who said No one is above flipping burgers.

If you have a college degree or even an advanced degree, many low paying jobs will not hire you because they know you'll be gone as soon as something better comes along.

theonedru
08-20-2012, 03:10 PM
If you have a college degree or even an advanced degree, many low paying jobs will not hire you because they know you'll be gone as soon as something better comes along.

That's just an excuse people use not to apply for those jobs.

angel0430
08-20-2012, 03:33 PM
Most people complaining about not finding a job are people that believe they are entitled to better pay and all that. They are used to the government paying for all their stuff. The federal governemtn is always hiring, law nforcement, military, truck companies...sometime you need to get dirty to make some money. I have been working since I was 14 yrs old. I am 34 now and have never being without a job. When it is time to move on, I do. I have work from summer camp, to wholesale, mortgage bank, local government in Puerto Rido and for the past 6 yrs I have been in the Air Force.

habsheaven
08-20-2012, 03:35 PM
That's just an excuse people use not to apply for those jobs.

I don't think it is. I remember when I first got out of school (many moons ago) being asked by potential employers what my goals were, and as soon as they realized the job I was applying for was just a stepping stone, the interviews pretty much ended.

tpeichel
08-20-2012, 03:35 PM
Are we really having an argument that there are enough jobs right now? Does anybody that disagrees with me have any data to back up their position? I'll post this chart once again. Sorry if this confuses anyone, but I believe it is pretty self-explanatory.

http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/OBAMAUNEMPLOYMENTFAILCHART.jpg

angel0430
08-20-2012, 03:45 PM
Unemployment being high does not mean that there aren't jobs available. It means that there are a lot of either lazy or uneducated people to either do or qualify for teh position. Political parties and news media tend to use this as a mean to create havoc. There are plenty of of job openings available. Of course, there are jobs that require higher education. But you can still get a job.

tpeichel
08-20-2012, 03:58 PM
Unemployment being high does not mean that there aren't jobs available. It means that there are a lot of either lazy or uneducated people to either do or qualify for teh position. Political parties and news media tend to use this as a mean to create havoc. There are plenty of of job openings available. Of course, there are jobs that require higher education. But you can still get a job.

If you're arguing that the government is making it too easy for people to not work and just collect government checks then I would agree.

Wickabee
08-20-2012, 05:00 PM
If you're arguing that the government is making it too easy for people to not work and just collect government checks then I would agree.

Not just the government. The media and society in general have programmed everyone to do as little work as possible for over half a century now.

theonedru
08-20-2012, 05:31 PM
Yeah, lots of jobs, no one to work them.

theonedru
08-20-2012, 05:34 PM
I don't think it is. I remember when I first got out of school (many moons ago) being asked by potential employers what my goals were, and as soon as they realized the job I was applying for was just a stepping stone, the interviews pretty much ended.

You market yourself for the job at hand you can get, not the futuristic one you hope of getting. You market your aspirations appropriately. That way you're not sabotaging yourself.

Wickabee
08-20-2012, 06:10 PM
You market yourself for the job at hand you can get, not the futuristic one you hope of getting. You market your aspirations appropriately. That way you're not sabotaging yourself.

I actually agree. The interview process is almost as much of a job as any job. For example, McDonald's knows you're not going to be there forever, heck, they're lucky if they can hold onto you for a year. They don't want to hear it though. The trick is to give them personal goals. If they ask for career goals specifically, laugh it off with "Well right now I'm just trying to get hired" (that got me at least one job) if they press, just lie. Tell them you want to work up within the company, that sort of thing. Even McDonald's managers buy that one. The interview isn't about how you answer the questions, it's about how you react. Half the time they're watching, not listening.

JustAlex
08-20-2012, 06:52 PM
This is a step in the right direction. How anyone can be against this is mind-boggling.
And yet the majority of the people against this are.......drum roll please.........The GOP.

I know, I know....big shock.

habsheaven
08-20-2012, 07:33 PM
You market yourself for the job at hand you can get, not the futuristic one you hope of getting. You market your aspirations appropriately. That way you're not sabotaging yourself.

You mean lie? When you ask a 20 year old a question, I would hope you are expecting an honest answer not a lie.

theonedru
08-20-2012, 08:31 PM
You mean lie? When you ask a 20 year old a question, I would hope you are expecting an honest answer not a lie.

Wickabee answered this beautifully so see his response in post #28

habsheaven
08-20-2012, 08:42 PM
Wickabee answered this beautifully so see his response in post #28

Yeah, I saw his response after I replied to yours. So you both mean, lie. Now in my more advanced years I may have had the confidence to do that. Back then, I was a naive young man looking for an honest job. It never would have crossed my mind to mislead them.

JustAlex
08-20-2012, 08:48 PM
All I want to say is that I'm a college graduate and I did have a hard time getting a job at places where I was over qualified for.

The fact of the matter is that there is so much competition for good jobs and many people don't want to go for less, which IMO they shouldn't if they don't want to.

I spent many years in College precisely to avoid working somewhere where they pay you less than $8/hour.

Wickabee
08-20-2012, 09:09 PM
Yeah, I saw his response after I replied to yours. So you both mean, lie. Now in my more advanced years I may have had the confidence to do that. Back then, I was a naive young man looking for an honest job. It never would have crossed my mind to mislead them.

It's not so much lying as it is a "creative truth" and to be honest, it was easier then to say, "Oh yes, I'd love to work my way up in McDonald's, Home Depot, this grocery store, this plumbing supply warehouse. I was an honest kid looking for an honest job, but I also realized that no one would hire me if I was completely truthful and said, "I hope to work here until the second something better comes along then I'm gone," which was the truth. So I'd go with, "Well, for now I'm looking for something to fill my days, put some money in my pocket and maybe force me to learn some things about terrible burgers/home renovations/lettuce/pipes and valves. In the future I guess I just want a job I can support a family on without stealing all of my time from them. As for where I want to end up, no idea, I'm 18-or-whatever-age-I-was."
I wasn't lying, I just failed to mention that those jobs weren't going to get me to a point where I could support a family.

angel0430
08-21-2012, 11:23 AM
If you're arguing that the government is making it too easy for people to not work and just collect government checks then I would agree.

That and that also some people are not willing to do the jobs that are availabel for them. We all want high paying jobs, with a lot of benefits, but we also need to realize that sometimes that is not possible and we need to start somewhere.

angel0430
08-21-2012, 11:24 AM
All I want to say is that I'm a college graduate and I did have a hard time getting a job at places where I was over qualified for.

The fact of the matter is that there is so much competition for good jobs and many people don't want to go for less, which IMO they shouldn't if they don't want to.

I spent many years in College precisely to avoid working somewhere where they pay you less than $8/hour.

I get your point and it makes perfect sense. But, would you rather sit at home and live of the government than go out and get a job until you find another one.?

theonedru
08-21-2012, 11:44 AM
All I want to say is that I'm a college graduate and I did have a hard time getting a job at places where I was over qualified for.

The fact of the matter is that there is so much competition for good jobs and many people don't want to go for less, which IMO they shouldn't if they don't want to.

I spent many years in College precisely to avoid working somewhere where they pay you less than $8/hour.

So you are more than willing to leech off the government you speak so harshly about.... refusing to work a job because you see it as beneath you, that's as elitist as you can get. Wow I cannot believe someone would openly admit to suckling off my hard earned $ because they believe they are entitles to something better. Alex how do you not realize you are all those type of people you so often complain about. It's hard to complain about needing solutions when you contribute to the problem.

angel0430
08-21-2012, 04:41 PM
So you are more than willing to leech off the government you speak so harshly about.... refusing to work a job because you see it as beneath you, that's as elitist as you can get. Wow I cannot believe someone would openly admit to suckling off my hard earned $ because they believe they are entitles to something better. Alex how do you not realize you are all those type of people you so often complain about. It's hard to complain about needing solutions when you contribute to the problem.

Awesome post. And you used a keyword "entitled"...people think that beacuse they study hard they are entilted to a higher pay. Well guess what, you need to compete with other people for those jobs. If not you need to start somewhere.

theonedru
08-21-2012, 05:04 PM
Awesome post. And you used a keyword "entitled"...people think that beacuse they study hard they are entilted to a higher pay. Well guess what, you need to compete with other people for those jobs. If not you need to start somewhere.

I know a girl who out of H.S. worked various odd jobs from farm work to volunteering at zoos and traveled and such. she applied for a job at a company and was hired over others with degrees because of her work ethics and her willingness to do what it took (plus when your resume says that you spent time shoveling elephant dung it kinda stands out) (or the summer she spent in Africa) along with a good dose of life experience. A big wig at a corporation once said these days (with a few exceptions) college degrees basically show you can start and finish something with little else to offer. He would always go for the person withe drive in the real world over a "corporate schmuck" as he put it. And Alex's post show why.

theonedru
08-21-2012, 05:05 PM
Double post

JustAlex
08-21-2012, 05:31 PM
So you are more than willing to leech off the government you speak so harshly about.... refusing to work a job because you see it as beneath you, that's as elitist as you can get. Wow I cannot believe someone would openly admit to suckling off my hard earned $ because they believe they are entitles to something better. Alex how do you not realize you are all those type of people you so often complain about. It's hard to complain about needing solutions when you contribute to the problem.
...

I wrote a very angry response and then realized it is not the way to have a discourse.

I'm not going to get into it, but you severely misinterpreted my comments.

I'm not going to waste my time explaining it to you.

Wickabee
08-21-2012, 06:49 PM
Then explain it to me because I kind of took it the same way he did.
Just trying to continue discourse.

JustAlex
08-21-2012, 06:58 PM
Then explain it to me because I kind of took it the same way he did.
Just trying to continue discourse.
I never said that I wanted anyone to "Leech" off of government.

My comment was that I personally had a hard time finding a job in the areas I wanted because there was too much competition and the lower tier jobs were also not hiring me because I was overqualified. Because of this fact, I said that anyone that doesn't want to settle for low paying jobs shouldn't have to and they should keep striving to get the jobs they want.....after all, that's why we went to college, to get a good job.

The hilarious thing about all of this is that I am not even eligible for ANY government help!.

To get Unemployment compensation you need to have worked for at least 6 months and you won't qualify if you quit, to get food stamps and Welfare you need to show that you have absolutely no one helping you and you have a very low income.

I have my parents helping me so I literally get NOTHING!

Theonedru lives in a fantasy world where everyone is "leeching" off the government because they are too lazy or some other nonsense he keeps perpetuating.

joee5
08-21-2012, 07:03 PM
send them all back home

theonedru
08-21-2012, 07:09 PM
I never said that I wanted anyone to "Leech" off of government.

My comment was that I personally had a hard time finding a job in the areas I wanted because there was too much competition and the lower tier jobs were also not hiring me because I was overqualified. Because of this fact, I said that anyone that doesn't want to settle for low paying jobs shouldn't have to and they should keep striving to get the jobs they want.....after all, that's why we went to college, to get a good job.

The hilarious thing about all of this is that I am not even eligible for ANY government help!.

To get Unemployment compensation you need to have worked for at least 6 months and you won't qualify if you quit, to get food stamps and Welfare you need to show that you have absolutely no one helping you and you have a very low income.

I have my parents helping me so I literally get NOTHING!

Theonedru lives in a fantasy world where everyone is "leeching" off the government because they are too lazy or some other nonsense he keeps perpetuating.

lets revisit that you said here it is

All I want to say is that I'm a college graduate and I did have a hard time getting a job at places where I was over qualified for.

The fact of the matter is that there is so much competition for good jobs and many people don't want to go for less, which IMO they shouldn't if they don't want to.

I spent many years in College precisely to avoid working somewhere where they pay you less than $8/hour

take part A with part b and it doesn't mesh with what you stated in your newest post where you add to your previous one to make it appear different. You also still admit to basically not doing it on your own when you admit to having the assistance of your parents, so your still living off of somebody other than yourself. So my fantasy claims hold a lot of reality....

JustAlex
08-21-2012, 07:25 PM
You also still admit to basically not doing it on your own when you admit to having the assistance of your parents, so your still living off of somebody other than yourself. So my fantasy claims hold a lot of reality....
You're hilarious, you know that?

I'm ignoring the first part of your comment because I already explained myself and I'm not repeating it again.

As for this part, I'm glad you're the type of person who wouldn't even help your children when they are having a hard time financially.

Thankfully for me, I have good parents who understand that money isn't everything in the world and they would happily help their son.

habsheaven
08-21-2012, 07:53 PM
You're hilarious, you know that?

I'm ignoring the first part of your comment because I already explained myself and I'm not repeating it again.

As for this part, I'm glad you're the type of person who wouldn't even help your children when they are having a hard time financially.

Thankfully for me, I have good parents who understand that money isn't everything in the world and they would happily help their son.

Alex,

My daughter, grandson and father of my grandson live in my basement level. I gave up my "hockey" room so we could redo that room into a nursery. My 19 year old daughter still lives at home too. My wife and I pay for everything, and we do so GLADLY. Everyone in my house has an open invitation to stay as long as needed. I am sure your parents are equally happy to help you when you need it. That is NOT living off someone. It is what families do for each other.

Wickabee
08-21-2012, 08:00 PM
You're hilarious, you know that?

I'm ignoring the first part of your comment because I already explained myself and I'm not repeating it again.

As for this part, I'm glad you're the type of person who wouldn't even help your children when they are having a hard time financially.

Thankfully for me, I have good parents who understand that money isn't everything in the world and they would happily help their son.

Very well said. Dru is way off with the parents remark.

indexed
08-21-2012, 08:05 PM
This is a step in the right direction. How anyone can be against this is mind-boggling.


It's not a step in the right direction at all. The concerns of people against this were totally ignored. For example the culture of crime illegal immigration has caused. The average illegal alien has 9 aliases. With those 9 different aliases comes all sorts of crime including fraud and identity theft. I'm sorry but the culture is here and this does nothing to deal with any of the REAL PROBLEMS that illegals cause. If you are for this include yourself as being for identity theft and welfare fraud. There is absolutely no way around it.

habsheaven
08-21-2012, 08:10 PM
It's not a step in the right direction at all. The concerns of people against this were totally ignored. For example the culture of crime illegal immigration has caused. The average illegal alien has 9 aliases. With those 9 different aliases comes all sorts of crime including fraud and identity theft. I'm sorry but the culture is here and this does nothing to deal with any of the REAL PROBLEMS that illegals cause. If you are for this include yourself as being for identity theft and welfare fraud. There is absolutely no way around it.

Do you have a source for these outlandish claims?

Wickabee
08-21-2012, 08:15 PM
Do you have a source for these outlandish claims?

I wonder if they rhyme with Blenn Geck and Lush Rimbaugh.

theonedru
08-21-2012, 08:41 PM
Very well said. Dru is way off with the parents remark.

I have, well had parents that taught me the quality of a good work ethic, to not be afraid to roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty. To learn as much as you can out there in the world. To take pride in earning what you get. I have done all sorts of jobs from restaurant work to working in the bush, learning on various machinery from cars to heavy equipment, picking apples to advisory work with various companies. I have even ran a few of my own endeavors. Its getting rarer and rarer to find people like this in the world today, sadly we are a dying breed

JustAlex
08-21-2012, 08:41 PM
Alex,

My daughter, grandson and father of my grandson live in my basement level. I gave up my "hockey" room so we could redo that room into a nursery. My 19 year old daughter still lives at home too. My wife and I pay for everything, and we do so GLADLY. Everyone in my house has an open invitation to stay as long as needed. I am sure your parents are equally happy to help you when you need it. That is NOT living off someone. It is what families do for each other.
Yes, that's what parents and families are there for, to help each other in hard times.

I didn't even have to ask twice before my parents gladly took me back into their house.

At the moment I do have a job but I don't have enough saved up to live by myself again.

However, to think that people are just lazy and want to live off the government is simply untrue and almost impossible.

Unemployment, food stamps, and Welfare eventually runs up, and what they do give you is very little.

Wickabee
08-21-2012, 08:49 PM
I have, well had parents that taught me the quality of a good work ethic, to not be afraid to roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty. To learn as much as you can out there in the world. To take pride in earning what you get. I have done all sorts of jobs from restaurant work to working in the bush, learning on various machinery from cars to heavy equipment, picking apples to advisory work with various companies. I have even ran a few of my own endeavors. Its getting rarer and rarer to find people like this in the world today, sadly we are a dying breed

Same here. What does helping out your children have to do with that?

JustAlex
08-21-2012, 11:24 PM
I have, well had parents that taught me the quality of a good work ethic, to not be afraid to roll up your sleeves and get your hands dirty. To learn as much as you can out there in the world. To take pride in earning what you get. I have done all sorts of jobs from restaurant work to working in the bush, learning on various machinery from cars to heavy equipment, picking apples to advisory work with various companies. I have even ran a few of my own endeavors. Its getting rarer and rarer to find people like this in the world today, sadly we are a dying breed
I never argued against that.

Point #1: The overwhelming majority of people that go to college do so in order to further their education and to have a better chance to get a good paying job......I am in this group.....or was, since I already graduated.

Point #2: When a college graduate goes into the job market he doesn't expect a job which he is under qualified for, he expects a job for what he trained for 4 years.....when he doesn't get it he must decide whether to look in the lower tier jobs or to keep looking for the job he wants.

Point #3: I do not blame any college graduate that refuses to settle, however this is NOT an invitation for him/her to "leech" as you call it from government.

Point #4: Like I stated, a college graduate is NOT even eligible for most entitlement programs so I have no idea why you even brought it up.

Point #5: I took the route to keep looking for a decent paying job over a low paying job....that was my decision, I got ZERO help from the government and although my parents did help, that is what should be expected from them. And I intend to one day help my kids (If I ever have kids) when they are in a financial tough spot.

theonedru
08-22-2012, 12:33 AM
I never argued against that.

Point #1: The overwhelming majority of people that go to college do so in order to further their education and to have a better chance to get a good paying job......I am in this group.....or was, since I already graduated.

- Any job that pays more than nothing (compared to not working) is a good paying job (compared to not working).

Point #2: When a college graduate goes into the job market he doesn't expect a job which he is under qualified for, he expects a job for what he trained for 4 years.....when he doesn't get it he must decide whether to look in the lower tier jobs or to keep looking for the job he wants.

- Any good thinking graduate would take what can get them in the door and earn that position, its called working your way up the ladder.


Point #3: I do not blame any college graduate that refuses to settle, however this is NOT an invitation for him/her to "leech" as you call it from government.

- then what do they do while they refuse to settle?


Point #4: Like I stated, a college graduate is NOT even eligible for most entitlement programs so I have no idea why you even brought it up.

- So there are programs they would be eligible for as you stated


Point #5: I took the route to keep looking for a decent paying job over a low paying job....that was my decision, I got ZERO help from the government and although my parents did help, that is what should be expected from them. And I intend to one day help my kids (If I ever have kids) when they are in a financial tough spot.

- So if a child slacks the parents should support that child no matter what? I think there are limits and borders as to how involved a parent should help a capable adult child. The parent should not be "expected" to fork it all over, especially if they have nothing to fork over, does that make them a bad parent?

In the end people get ruffled over these people willing to come here and do work no citizen wants to do, what do we do let those jobs stay empty? How do we fill them without migrant labor