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mikesilvia
08-21-2012, 11:30 PM
Years, and sometimes decades, pass between my visits to movie theaters. But I drove 30 miles to see the movie "2016," based on Dinesh D'Souza's best-selling book, "The Roots of Obama's Rage." Where I live is so politically correct that such a movie would not even be mentioned, much less shown. Every seat in the theater was filled, even though there had been an earlier showing that day, and more showings were scheduled for the rest of the afternoon and evening. I had to sit on a staircase in the balcony, but it was worth it. The audience was riveted. You...

More... (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2012/08/22/a_powerful_movie_115175.html)

INTIMADATOR2007
08-21-2012, 11:47 PM
"The story of Barack Obama, however, is not just the story of how one man came to be the way he is. It is a much larger story about how millions of Americans came to vote for, and some to idolize, a man whose fundamental beliefs and values are so different from their own".


Bingo !

shrewsbury
08-22-2012, 08:31 AM
America was sick of Bush, which equated to they were sick of republicans, they were ready for change, and Obama promised hope and change.

habsheaven
08-22-2012, 08:51 AM
Obama won because the Republicans suck. He will win again because the Republicans suck. Without seeing the movie, I would be willing to bet it is no more credible than Farenheit 911.

Wickabee
08-22-2012, 01:12 PM
The Third World, or anti-colonial, view is that the rich nations have gotten rich by taking wealth from the poor nations. It is part of a much larger vision, in which the rich in general have gotten rich by taking from the poor, whether in their own country or elsewhere.
Whatever its factual weaknesses, it is an emotionally powerful vision, to which many people have dedicated their lives, and for which some have even risked their lives. Some of these people appear in this documentary movie, as they have appeared throughout the formative phases of Barack Obama's life.

So, a sweeping generalization about how poor people see the world is Obama's view because.....?

shrewsbury
08-22-2012, 01:28 PM
habs, Obama won based on lies, deceit, and people tired of Bush. your comments were very nice though. And if he wins again it has to do with people who are not educating themselves and are basing their vote off what others say. Obama has nothing to offer (not that romney and ryan have much either) and it is time for some real change and hope.

habsheaven
08-22-2012, 01:36 PM
Jay, what lies and deceit?

mrveggieman
08-22-2012, 01:52 PM
habs, Obama won based on lies, deceit, and people tired of Bush. your comments were very nice though. And if he wins again it has to do with people who are not educating themselves and are basing their vote off what others say. Obama has nothing to offer (not that romney and ryan have much either) and it is time for some real change and hope.

I actually agree that romney and ryan dont really have much (if anything at all) to offer and on the cool unless we get rid or most of these jokers in congress President Obama will not have much to offer either because of congressional stonewalling.

Wickabee
08-22-2012, 02:10 PM
Jay, what lies and deceit?

You know, that he's American, that he's a Christian that he doesn't want Americans everywhere to suddenly die. Basically everything he says that goes against what Limbaugh and Beck say about him.

duwal
08-22-2012, 02:56 PM
habs, Obama won based on lies, deceit, and people tired of Bush. your comments were very nice though. And if he wins again it has to do with people who are not educating themselves and are basing their vote off what others say. Obama has nothing to offer (not that romney and ryan have much either) and it is time for some real change and hope.


what gives you the right to say that people who vote for Obama are not educating themselves? Just because you do not like who they might vote for or their reasons does in no way, shape or form mean that they are not intelligent in knowing the issues at hand.

I'm a Republican that thinks that Obama has done a fine job and better than I could have expected. I voted for McCain and I believed neither candidate could have done much to right the ship after the decline that happened during Bush's term, at least not during their first term as president but here we are a few months before election and we can all clearly see that we are slowly climbing out of the hole that we were in when Obama took over. Most of those that don't see it are the ones that just don't want to admit that there has been progress

pghin08
08-22-2012, 03:08 PM
what gives you the right to say that people who vote for Obama are not educating themselves? Just because you do not like who they might vote for or their reasons does in no way, shape or form mean that they are not intelligent in knowing the issues at hand.

I'm a Republican that thinks that Obama has done a fine job and better than I could have expected. I voted for McCain and I believed neither candidate could have done much to right the ship after the decline that happened during Bush's term, at least not during their first term as president but here we are a few months before election and we can all clearly see that we are slowly climbing out of the hole that we were in when Obama took over. Most of those that don't see it are the ones that just don't want to admit that there has been progress

Do you watch the Newsroom on HBO? If you don't, you should. Thank me later.

Edit: Back on topic (kind of), how did you feel about Obama in 2008 compared to today? You're one of the few people I know that are McCain voters in '08, and plan to be Obama voters in '12.

JustAlex
08-22-2012, 03:36 PM
Obama won because the Republicans suck. He will win again because the Republicans suck. Without seeing the movie, I would be willing to bet it is no more credible than Farenheit 911.
The Lesser of two VERY BIG EVILS.

Yes, that's what Obama and the democrats are.

By no means do I support them, but compared to the HORRIBLE GOP, the choice is actually quite easy.

shrewsbury
08-22-2012, 03:52 PM
i have the right to say what I think, just like everyone here has and does.

also i never said they were dumb or stupid, i said anyone who votes for him are people who are not educating themselves about him and his policies.

it's funny you did not ask why someone has the right to call all republicans stupid.

Wickabee
08-22-2012, 04:15 PM
i have the right to say what I think, just like everyone here has and does.

also i never said they were dumb or stupid, i said anyone who votes for him are people who are not educating themselves about him and his policies.

it's funny you did not ask why someone has the right to call all republicans stupid.
No one needs to when you say everyone who disagrees with you is uneducated on the subject...

shrewsbury
08-22-2012, 05:18 PM
wickabee, you must be talking about yourself....

and still no one finds anything wrong with calling all republicans stupid, but say many Obama voters are not educating themselves about Obama and it is heretical.

Look at his record, it speaks for itself

habsheaven
08-22-2012, 08:04 PM
Still looking for Obama's lies and deceit?

Wickabee
08-22-2012, 08:45 PM
wickabee, you must be talking about yourself....

and still no one finds anything wrong with calling all republicans stupid, but say many Obama voters are not educating themselves about Obama and it is heretical.

Look at his record, it speaks for itself

No Shrew. You said it not me. You can deny it all you want.

boba
08-22-2012, 08:59 PM
Still looking for Obama's lies and deceit?

http://obamalies.net/list-of-lies

INTIMADATOR2007
08-22-2012, 09:42 PM
Still looking for Obama's lies and deceit?
Replay any of his speeches .

Wickabee
08-22-2012, 10:43 PM
Replay any of his speeches .

The sad part is you actually think that's a valid response, don't you.

pspstatus
08-23-2012, 12:54 AM
i have the right to say what I think, just like everyone here has and does.

also i never said they were dumb or stupid, i said anyone who votes for him are people who are not educating themselves about him and his policies.

it's funny you did not ask why someone has the right to call all republicans stupid.

I feel like I educate myself fairly well. It's the system not so much the candidates. They are just puppets for the monetary overlords.

Wickabee
08-23-2012, 02:24 AM
I feel like I educate myself fairly well. It's the system not so much the candidates. They are just puppets for the monetary overlords.

No, no, you disagree. Therefor you obviously are uneducated about him.

shrewsbury
08-23-2012, 08:49 AM
wickabee, if you put as much time in your real posting as you do with your smart remarks, people may respond to you more often. but perhaps that is not your reasoning for posting, for you seem to think if no one deals with you, you won something, which nothing is farther from the truth.

and yes I think his statement was wrong, I don't believe in the whole conspiracy thing, monetary overlords, or the secret societies that "really" run everything.

AUTaxMan
08-23-2012, 09:40 AM
Here's Boortz's review of the movie:

http://www.boortz.com/weblogs/nealz-nuze/2012/aug/23/2016-obamas-america/


Yesterday afternoon I finally found the time to head to a theatre to see 2016 – Obama’s America, a movie based on Dinesh D’Sousa’s book “The Roots of Obama’s Rage.”

In the book D’Sousa tried to determine just what was driving Dear Ruler’s rage (dare we say hatred?) against successful wealthy Nations and Americans? Why did he send the bust of Winston Churchill back to the British Embassy in Washington? Why did he break with many previous presidents and take the Argentinian side on the Falkans controversy? Why is the centerpiece of Obama’s reelection campaign his obsession on raising taxes on the rich, even when history clearly shows that raising taxes on the rich only serves to reduce revenues to the government?

To answer these questions D’Sousa traveled to Hawaii, to Indonesia, to Africa and around the Continental U.S. to interview the people who knew Barack Obama and people who have studied those who were close to Obama as he was growing up.

Now I tried to watch this movie with somewhat a different eye than most of the people in that theater. As hard as it is to do … I tried to watch it as an Obama supporter. I was looking for something that was clearly untrue or for logical lapses relating to Obama’s positions. (Yeah, like a liberal would recognize a logical lapse.) Not once did I think to myself “Oh now come on, Dinesh. That’s a little much.”

There were a few things in the movie that I had not realized … a few surprises for me.

---Obama’s mother, Stanley Ann Dunham, truly seemed to despise the United States, so much so that she gravitated solely to men from the “third world.”

---Obama’s father was married at the time he met and married Ann Dunham. No judgment here – that might have been perfectly acceptable in his culture. Just didn’t know that.

---While living in Indonesia Obama’s mother sent him to Hawaii to live with his grandparents because she was concerned that Obama would be influenced by his step-father, Lolo Sotero’s, increasingly pro-American and pro-Western views and associations.

---It was Obama’s grandfather, from whom his mother apparently got her strident anti-American views, who introduced Obama to Communist Party member Frank Marshall Davis, with the intent that Davis was to become Obama’s mentor.

---Obama’s private school in Hawaii, Punahou, was infused with an anti-colonialist fervor; an atmosphere of resentment toward the United States as having colonized Hawaii.

D’Sousa puts all of the information he gathers together and comes up with the conclusion that Obama’s driving philosophy is one of anti-colonialism. His mother, father, grandfather and mentor were all strident anti-colonialists. They all harbored the feeling that America’s wealth came from the exploitation of other nations and people. Obama now sees the opportunity to honor the legacy of his parents by righting that wrong and by destroying much of America’s ill-gotten wealth. This he is intent on doing through the destruction of our economy.

At the end of the movie the audience – as it had in other venues – burst into applause. I heard yells of “Romney – Ryan” and “Take back America.” Me? I was shaken. The documentary rang true. It answered question for me – and left me even more afraid for the future of my country than I am now.

Much to the dismay of the left, the movie has been very successful in limited engagements across the country; so much so that the movie will open in an much-expanded list of theaters over the weekend.

Now .. here’s the problem. The only people who will go see this movie are people who are already predisposed to vote for Romney. The vast majority of people who will vote for Obama are not voting for a particularly philosophy … they are voting for one simple reason: To get access to someone else’s wealth. They don’t care what Obama’s motives or reasons are. They care about one thing --- their checks – their money – their ObamaMoney.

Here is the best way to use this movie. Get a friend who doesn’t vote; a friend who basically shares your political philosophy, but who doesn’t plan to vote because they feel their vote won’t count anyway. Take that friend to the movie. Offer then dinner before or after .. but somehow get them to that movie. This movie is so powerful it will take those “my vote won’t count” people and change them into “By God I’m going to MAKE my vote count” people. That may save our Republic.

mrveggieman
08-23-2012, 10:11 AM
So people can take anti-obama propaganda movies as gospel but all of the anti bush movies are the work of leftist conspiracy nuts. Got ya. :thumb:

AUTaxMan
08-23-2012, 10:36 AM
So people can take anti-obama propaganda movies as gospel but all of the anti bush movies are the work of leftist conspiracy nuts. Got ya. :thumb:

I didn't realize this was a discussion about bush.

Wickabee
08-23-2012, 10:41 AM
wickabee, if you put as much time in your real posting as you do with your smart remarks, people may respond to you more often. but perhaps that is not your reasoning for posting, for you seem to think if no one deals with you, you won something, which nothing is farther from the truth.


I think I've won something? What do I think I've won? Am I so braindead I think this is a competition?
Please tell me as you obviously know my thoughts better than I.

One thing I do know, I'm not the one who said everyone who votes differently from me is uneducated. I would never say something so arrogant and, well, uneducated, because I know it would cause people to lose a lot of respect for me, as would my attacking someone who called me on it.

Of course, I'm just trying to win something, right?

mrveggieman
08-23-2012, 10:46 AM
I didn't realize this was a discussion about bush.


No but it's amazing who people who already have a hatred for our president will believe anything negative that is put out about him. Hell I can make a show full of lies about our president and make a boat load of money marketing it to you conservatives. Just ask Ruppert Murdock.

tpeichel
08-23-2012, 10:49 AM
Still looking for Obama's lies and deceit?

Cut the deficit in half?

ensbergcollector
08-23-2012, 10:51 AM
So people can take anti-obama propaganda movies as gospel but all of the anti bush movies are the work of leftist conspiracy nuts. Got ya. :thumb:

i have not seen this movie and honestly have no plans to. however, you can't really compare a movie by d-sousa and a movie by michael moore. The anti-bush movies were moore using creative editing to make it look like people said things they never said. So yes, that is the work of a leftist nut. that isn't about bush, that is about moore. having not seen this, i don't know if d'sousa uses the same techniques but if he does I will be the first to call foul.
In the anti-bush movies it was extremely easy to find cases to say "he never said that" "that is a lie by the film maker." Can we say that about this movie would be my question.

mrveggieman
08-23-2012, 10:54 AM
i have not seen this movie and honestly have no plans to. however, you can't really compare a movie by d-sousa and a movie by michael moore. The anti-bush movies were moore using creative editing to make it look like people said things they never said. So yes, that is the work of a leftist nut. that isn't about bush, that is about moore. having not seen this, i don't know if d'sousa uses the same techniques but if he does I will be the first to call foul.
In the anti-bush movies it was extremely easy to find cases to say "he never said that" "that is a lie by the film maker." Can we say that about this movie would be my question.


I never seen the movie and have no plans on seeing it but based on the commentary by some of the conservative readers on here it has plenty of "credible" evidence to convince any conservative about all the ills of our president.

ensbergcollector
08-23-2012, 10:56 AM
I never seen the movie and have no plans on seeing it but based on the commentary by some of the conservative readers on here it has plenty of "credible" evidence to convince any conservative about all the ills of our president.

honest question, do you just assume they are all lies and there is nothing credible in there? Again, if the movie is done with "creative" editing then i will be the first to blast it. However, just because it is anti-obama doesn't mean it is all false (not does it mean it is all true). I just see people on the right believing it all while people on the left will say it is all lies.

habsheaven
08-23-2012, 11:09 AM
It really has nothing to do with whether it is "true" or not. I am sure it is full of "true facts". The problem is the conclusions and inferences made by highlighting certain facts and ignoring other facts that do not fit with the narrative of what the writer wants to present. For viewers wanting to believe the narrative they will do so. For skeptics, they will dismiss it outright because they know the tactics that are being used.

AUTaxMan
08-23-2012, 12:22 PM
It really has nothing to do with whether it is "true" or not. I am sure it is full of "true facts". The problem is the conclusions and inferences made by highlighting certain facts and ignoring other facts that do not fit with the narrative of what the writer wants to present. For viewers wanting to believe the narrative they will do so. For skeptics, they will dismiss it outright because they know the tactics that are being used.

Surely the liberal commentators will slice it to pieces if the film contains any of that kind of stuff, as well they should. I believe Boortz would have done so if he saw something that caused him to raise an eyebrow. He's never been one to toe the party line.

habsheaven
08-23-2012, 12:31 PM
Surely the liberal commentators will slice it to pieces if the film contains any of that kind of stuff, as well they should. I believe Boortz would have done so if he saw something that caused him to raise an eyebrow. He's never been one to toe the party line.

What do you mean IF? It has to include inferences and conclusions based on what it is presenting. How could it be a movie if it simply listed a bunch of facts? I don't even know who Boortz is but I can tell from reading his review that he is not a Democrat and as such he will have the same preconcieved conceptions as other Republicans have. He wouldn't know how to "raise an eyebrow" to anything said.

AUTaxMan
08-23-2012, 01:17 PM
What do you mean IF? It has to include inferences and conclusions based on what it is presenting. How could it be a movie if it simply listed a bunch of facts? I don't even know who Boortz is but I can tell from reading his review that he is not a Democrat and as such he will have the same preconcieved conceptions as other Republicans have. He wouldn't know how to "raise an eyebrow" to anything said.

Of course it draws conclusions. If it contains inferences and conclusions based on half-truths, lies and substantial omissions, it will be exposed for what it is. Boortz is a libertarian and has been very critical of the reps of late.

Wickabee
08-23-2012, 01:25 PM
Of course it draws conclusions. If it contains inferences and conclusions based on half-truths, lies and substantial omissions, it will be exposed for what it is. Boortz is a libertarian and has been very critical of the reps of late.

This is pretty true.

JustAlex
08-23-2012, 05:44 PM
In the past 4 years Republicans have painted Obama in the following way:

A Muslim-socialist-communist-Nazi-Kenyan-baby killing-gay-unAmerican-liar who can do no right and is destroying this country.

If the GOP lived on planet earth and not the fantasy world they have constructed they would see just insane they really have become.


Here is the truth.....Obama has NOT been the president we hoped for, he didn't do enough and the hope and change slogans he used were in fact false.

In his presidency I turned my back on Democrats and I'm now 100% Independent.


HOWEVER.......in the same period, the GOP has literally turned so insane, so out-of-touch, so greedy, so hateful, and so incompetent that their image is forever broken to many rational thinking people.

pspstatus
08-23-2012, 06:11 PM
So maybe this movie is partly right. Maybe Obama is somewhat anti-colonialist. Is it such a terrible thing that Obama sees other countries as being equal to us? Is it such a terrible thing that he doesn't share the same condescending arrogance of superiority as many past presidents have? Even if he does have some anti-colonialist views I sincerely doubt that his goal is to turn the US into a third world country.

Here's a mind blower for you. Obama not being incredibly ethnocentric doesn't upset me that much.

AUTaxMan
08-23-2012, 06:12 PM
HOWEVER.......in the same period, the GOP has literally turned so insane, so out-of-touch, so greedy, so hateful, and so incompetent that their image is forever broken to many rational thinking people.

Is their image broken to you as well?

AUTaxMan
08-23-2012, 06:14 PM
So maybe this movie is partly right. Maybe Obama is somewhat anti-colonialist. Is it such a terrible thing that Obama sees other countries as being equal to us? Is it such a terrible thing that he doesn't share the same condescending arrogance of superiority as many past presidents have? Even if he does have some anti-colonialist views I sincerely doubt that his goal is to turn the US into a third world country.

Here's a mind blower for you. Obama not being incredibly ethnocentric doesn't upset me that much.

No nation in the history of the world has become as prosperous and as free as ours. Is that not something to be proud of?

Wickabee
08-23-2012, 06:21 PM
No nation in the history of the world has become as prosperous and as free as ours. Is that not something to be proud of?

Can you not be proud without forcing the world to do and see things your way? Or are you so proud you can't see that's a detriment?

AUTaxMan
08-23-2012, 06:25 PM
Can you not be proud without forcing the world to do and see things your way? Or are you so proud you can't see that's a detriment?

How are we "forcing the world to do and see things [our] way"?

Wickabee
08-23-2012, 06:29 PM
How are we "forcing the world to do and see things [our] way"?

I'm not even answering that. If you don't see how America is forcing everything from its politics to its pop culture on the world, I don't even know how to talk to you. There's no reason to call yourself above others. Period.


For once just take the point instead of arguing it beyond recognition.

pspstatus
08-23-2012, 06:29 PM
No nation in the history of the world has become as prosperous and as free as ours. Is that not something to be proud of?

Of course we can be proud. I am proud of many things that this country represents. I am not proud of our arrogance and our we are the best and you suck attitude.

AUTaxMan
08-23-2012, 06:33 PM
Of course we can be proud. I am proud of many things that this country represents. I am not proud of our arrogance and our we are the best and you suck attitude.

What makes you think we have that attitude?

pspstatus
08-23-2012, 06:33 PM
[QUOTE=shrewsbury;11986074and yes I think his statement was wrong, I don't believe in the whole conspiracy thing, monetary overlords, or the secret societies that "really" run everything.[/QUOTE]

I didn't say it was a secret society. It's anything but secret. People are worrying about this country becoming socialist when they should be worried about it becoming an aristocratic oligarchy.

pspstatus
08-23-2012, 06:37 PM
What makes you think we have that attitude?

It's everywhere man. Our policies, our arrogance towards other countries and governments, our unwillingness to bend or compromise, or the cheers when just about every politician gloats about this being the best country in the world. USA USA USA USA USA.

Wickabee
08-23-2012, 06:39 PM
What makes you think we have that attitude?

You can't seriously be asking this. Are you contending that America doesn't have that attitude, or are you just being difficult?

Wickabee
08-23-2012, 06:40 PM
It's everywhere man. Our policies, our arrogance towards other countries and governments, our unwillingness to bend or compromise, or the cheers when just about every politician gloats about this being the best country in the world. USA USA USA USA USA.

I will say, I am a little envious of the chant. Ca-Na-Da just doesn't ring the same.

AUTaxMan
08-23-2012, 06:58 PM
It's everywhere man. Our policies, our arrogance towards other countries and governments, our unwillingness to bend or compromise, or the cheers when just about every politician gloats about this being the best country in the world. USA USA USA USA USA.

Which policies?

AUTaxMan
08-23-2012, 06:59 PM
You can't seriously be asking this. Are you contending that America doesn't have that attitude, or are you just being difficult?

I'm asking that someone provide concrete examples.

Wickabee
08-23-2012, 07:05 PM
I'm asking that someone provide concrete examples.

If you need examples, concrete or not, you'll never see it because you're blinded by pride.
It would be really refreshing if, just once, you entered a conversation on the basis that what you already know has been established as fact instead of looking for proof of what you already know.

Unless you truly don't know it, in which case no one is ever going to be able to show you, but I am convinced that if someone posted "what goes up must come down" you'd be asking for examples and studies to prove the claim.

AUTaxMan
08-23-2012, 07:09 PM
If you need examples, concrete or not, you'll never see it because you're blinded by pride.
It would be really refreshing if, just once, you entered a conversation on the basis that what you already know has been established as fact instead of looking for proof of what you already know.

Unless you truly don't know it, in which case no one is ever going to be able to show you.

You can't even demonstrate a single real example of what you allege. All you do here is blow hot air and make assumptions without supporting your allegations. You want to conveniently skip over the part of a discussion where the facts and assumptions are established. Once we get to the point of establishing the facts and assumptions, we can then have an adult conversation.

For example, in this discussion, you want me to merely assume as an established fact that America is arrogant. That is not a fact. It is your opinion. I am not going to assume your opinion to be true. You need to substantiate it.

cbuskstwar
08-23-2012, 07:15 PM
Still looking for Obama's lies and deceit?

The War in Afghan
Get-mo
cutting the defiect
balance the budget
bring both parties together
hope and change
..........

Wickabee
08-23-2012, 07:19 PM
You can't even demonstrate a single real example of what you allege.
Fine. How about the fact the US sees it necessary to impose itself on the people of other countries in the form of a war machine.


All you do here is blow hot air and make assumptions without supporting your allegations.
Is that all I do? Hmm, no insult there.
Not to mention, at least I do something other than ask stupid questions I already know the answer to.


You want to conveniently skip over the part of a discussion where the facts and assumptions are established.
I want to skip over the part EVERYONE including you already knows. You know this stuff, yet you continue to mindlessly ask questions hoping others will eventually get sick of it and leave, meaning you "won" I guess.


Once we get to the point of establishing the facts and assumptions, we can then have an adult conversation.
My point is, these things are already established a thousand times over. Just because it hasn't been repeated in this particular thread or even on this forum doesn't mean we all don't know it. I know you know these things. I cannot possibly imagine you're blinded enough not to.


For example, in this discussion, you want me to merely assume as an established fact that America is arrogant. That is not a fact. It is your opinion. I am not going to assume your opinion to be true. You need to substantiate it.
It is a fact that America has a very arrogant attitude. Case in point, Iraq. You walked in and killed their leader without even asking if they wanted it or caring if they were responsible for the attack on your country or that they had no WMDs (something else we all knew)

Better? Grow up.

JustAlex
08-23-2012, 07:21 PM
It's everywhere man. Our policies, our arrogance towards other countries and governments, our unwillingness to bend or compromise, or the cheers when just about every politician gloats about this being the best country in the world. USA USA USA USA USA.
Every time I hear a crowd chant USA, USA, USA in a NON sporting event, I just facepalm.

It's so stupid and indicative to our own arrogance and ignorance.

Yes, this country has done some great things, but it ruins it with it's politics and it's arrogant attitude believing it is the best in all areas.

Our education is lacking, our health care is terrible, our infrastructure is outdated, and while this is happening too many of our citizens are distracted by stupid things like celebrities, vanity, and unimportant matters.

AUTaxMan
08-23-2012, 07:38 PM
It is a fact that America has a very arrogant attitude. Case in point, Iraq. You walked in and killed their leader without even asking if they wanted it or caring if they were responsible for the attack on your country or that they had no WMDs (something else we all knew)

Better? Grow up.

No, it isn't better. This is not a fact. It is your perception of America. I don't want to get into an Iraq debate, but we (and other nations) went in there on what apparently turned out to be bad information on the WMDs and at a time that we felt a high level of threat to our national security. If the WMDs had been found, most people would be singing a different tune about that war. That isn't arrogance.

Wickabee
08-23-2012, 09:43 PM
Edit.
Nevermind. I'm done with this mindless banter. You win, all hail etc etc.

duwal
08-24-2012, 01:29 AM
The War in Afghan
Get-mo
cutting the defiect
balance the budget
bring both parties together
hope and change
..........

though all of that realistically only would have worked if both parties worked well together

pspstatus
08-24-2012, 01:42 AM
Which policies?

Sorry I should have clarified that I meant foreign policies.

mrveggieman
08-24-2012, 08:00 AM
though all of that realistically only would have worked if both parties worked well together


And we all know that will never happen because it is too much like right.

AUTaxMan
08-24-2012, 09:12 AM
Edit.
Nevermind. I'm done with this mindless banter. You win, all hail etc etc.

I don't want to "win." I want you to put a cogent argument in type so that we can have a reasonable conversation. It takes effort to do that.

AUTaxMan
08-24-2012, 09:16 AM
Sorry I should have clarified that I meant foreign policies.

Which foreign policies?

Wickabee
08-24-2012, 11:52 AM
I don't want to "win." I want you to put a cogent argument in type so that we can have a reasonable conversation. It takes effort to do that.

I did. You called it my opinion. What list do you use to determine arrogance?
It wouldn't be your opinion would it?

And if you were trying to have any sort of conversation you would. Unfortunately, you never do. You just ask questions everyone already knows the answer to

pspstatus
08-25-2012, 12:30 AM
Which foreign policies?

Basically just feeling like we have the right to stick our noses into anybody and everybodys business. And I'm not just talking about government. I'm talking about citizens of this country. Ask a group of people their opinions on America compared to the rest of the world.

AUTaxMan
08-25-2012, 11:28 AM
Basically just feeling like we have the right to stick our noses into anybody and everybodys business. And I'm not just talking about government. I'm talking about citizens of this country. Ask a group of people their opinions on America compared to the rest of the world.

I think that is perception more than it is reality.

Wickabee
08-25-2012, 12:27 PM
Reality is nothing but perception.

Theodor Madison
08-25-2012, 12:50 PM
Off subject or not? when people say America is arrogant I really do not think of all the things America does for other countries. Who can say they sacrifice their young men and women for the simple being able to exist. Those who are first to say America is arrogant are the likely to ask for help. The only fault I see in America is that it has to much Heart and Compassion. I do admit, That I do see arrogance in the present President.

Wickabee
08-25-2012, 12:55 PM
Off subject or not? when people say America is arrogant I really do not think of all the things America does for other countries. Who can say they sacrifice their young men and women for the simple being able to exist. Those who are first to say America is arrogant are the likely to ask for help. The only fault I see in America is that it has to much Heart and Compassion. I do admit, That I do see arrogance in the present President.

The bolded part is why people say America is arrogant. You seem to think EVERYONE on earth is just chomping at the bit for "help" from America. The reality is 99% of the planet doesn't want your help but has it forced on them anyway.

pspstatus
08-25-2012, 04:04 PM
Off subject or not? when people say America is arrogant I really do not think of all the things America does for other countries. Who can say they sacrifice their young men and women for the simple being able to exist. Those who are first to say America is arrogant are the likely to ask for help. The only fault I see in America is that it has to much Heart and Compassion. I do admit, That I do see arrogance in the present President.

Thinking our country can be arrogant and asking for help from it don't correlate in any way. I don't ask for help from the public but I still think we as a whole can be very arrogant.

And I'm not trying to say that America doesn't have heart or do anything good for others. But the fact of the matter is that quite often when we "help" other countries we are often really helping ourselves and protecting our own interests.

Maybe not being able to see any fault in this country is why we are so arrogant. Nobody's perfect.

Also just curious why you think Obama is arrogant? And did you feel the same way about George W. Bush?

pspstatus
08-25-2012, 04:07 PM
I think that is perception more than it is reality.

I guess you could say it's how I perceive things. But I think this perception is backed up by real observation. Maybe I can't scientifically prove it but looking at it through an unbiased lens that is how I see it.

Wickabee
08-25-2012, 04:39 PM
I guess you could say it's how I perceive things. But I think this perception is backed up by real observation. Maybe I can't scientifically prove it but looking at it through an unbiased lens that is how I see it.

I'm pretty sure this is why we'll always be "wrong" in this instance. The fact that most non-Americans would agree that America (the nation, not the individuals within it) is arrogant means nothing to him. Unless you can provide a scientific study and research of every possible resource possible, you'll never convince him.

That isn't an insult or an attack. It is an observation.

drtom2005
08-25-2012, 10:42 PM
The bolded part is why people say America is arrogant. You seem to think EVERYONE on earth is just chomping at the bit for "help" from America. The reality is 99% of the planet doesn't want your help but has it forced on them anyway.

Wickabee, I am going to really have to disagree with this one. I wish our government would withdraw all of our help and bases around the world and watch what happens.

When the U.S. tried to get out of Europe after WWI, WWII happened. When other disasters or autoricites happen around the world, the U.S. is asked first to help. Maybe some of the neighboring countries should help.

I find it interesting that another World War has not happened since the U.S. has been getting involved in world affairs ( By the way, it is bankrupting this country).

I think Canada needs to take over for awhile. :)))

Wickabee
08-26-2012, 02:15 AM
Wickabee, I am going to really have to disagree with this one. I wish our government would withdraw all of our help and bases around the world and watch what happens.
So what? Like I said, I'm talking about the nation, not the people within it (ie: you)


When the U.S. tried to get out of Europe after WWI, WWII happened. When other disasters or autoricites happen around the world, the U.S. is asked first to help. Maybe some of the neighboring countries should help.
Because your nation has "helped" others to the point of making them dependent on you. Also, just because you give help doesn't necessarily mean it was actually asked for.


I find it interesting that another World War has not happened since the U.S. has been getting involved in world affairs ( By the way, it is bankrupting this country).
That's not arrogant at all...


I think Canada needs to take over for awhile. :)))
We clean everything up after you guys unleash your brand of "help"

Rockman
08-26-2012, 02:26 AM
I don't understand why people can't take an objective look at America's past actions. Arrogance for America isn't anything new, heck manifest destiny was/is one of the most arrogant things ever and that was hundreds of years ago.

No one can really make a sound argument that we aren't the most arrogant country...except for maybe North Korea.

On second thought North Korea definitely has us beat.

drtom2005
08-26-2012, 02:19 PM
So what? Like I said, I'm talking about the nation, not the people within it (ie: you)

Fair enough.

Because your nation has "helped" others to the point of making them dependent on you. Also, just because you give help doesn't necessarily mean it was actually asked for.
Not saying everything that the U.S. has done is right, just that is causes more stabilization in the world. Having the number one military makes people ask for help.

That's not arrogant at all...

Truth versus arrogance can be confused. The U.S has 737 miltitary insallations around the world. Now, if people do not want us around I would be fine with it. Although, when we leave every thing goes wrong most of the time (Ex: Afganstan in th 80s). If the U.S was to leave all these countries, we likely have trouble in Europe and Korea to start with. After that I could not predict the future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_military_bases
http://www.alternet.org/story/47998/737_u.s._military_bases_%3D_global_empire/

We clean everything up after you guys unleash your brand of "help"
Such as? I also wanted Canada to take over all of our overseas military bases, as a thought experiment. I'm sure Canadians would love this. Wouldn't they?

As a species, we are in our most peaceful time in history right now. It might not be just the U.S., but something has changed.


responses in bold

AUTaxMan
08-26-2012, 02:58 PM
I guess you could say it's how I perceive things. But I think this perception is backed up by real observation. Maybe I can't scientifically prove it but looking at it through an unbiased lens that is how I see it.

Fair enough.

Wickabee
08-26-2012, 04:34 PM
responses in bold

1 - Ok
2 - It also causes you to "help" in places like Iraq, where it wasn't asked for and served no real honourable purpose.
3 - Truth and bragging can also be confused. You can be right and arrogant at the same time. You also cause as much trouble as you help.
4 - Canada wouldn't do it because we never would have set them up in the first place. We clean up a lot of messes, not just yours. We may be at our most peaceful point, but that doesn't mean we're anywhere near something good.

drtom2005
08-26-2012, 05:22 PM
1 - Ok
2 - It also causes you to "help" in places like Iraq, where it wasn't asked for and served no real honourable purpose.
3 - Truth and bragging can also be confused. You can be right and arrogant at the same time. You also cause as much trouble as you help.
4 - Canada wouldn't do it because we never would have set them up in the first place. We clean up a lot of messes, not just yours. We may be at our most peaceful point, but that doesn't mean we're anywhere near something good.

2- I didn't support going into Iraq. We are there now and are stuck. I really do not know what to do. I do know when we leave(if it is too early), things will go back to the same thing.
3-I am not bragging about anything. It is just the way it is. Personally, I think the U.S has helped more, then hurt people, on balance.
4-Yeah and it could be much worse. I would like other countries to try to do what the U.S. is doing and see if their results would be better. At best, they would equal what is happening. Of course, the U.S. could act like Rome and try to take over the world. Most of our history, we have tried to stay out of things outside of the Western Hemisphere. Other countries bring us into conflicts.

Wickabee
08-26-2012, 07:06 PM
2- I didn't support going into Iraq. We are there now and are stuck. I really do not know what to do. I do know when we leave(if it is too early), things will go back to the same thing.
True enough, but again, the nation, not you.
3-
I am not bragging about anything. It is just the way it is. Personally, I think the U.S has helped more, then hurt people, on balance.
You may be right.

4-Yeah and it could be much worse. I would like other countries to try to do what the U.S. is doing and see if their results would be better. At best, they would equal what is happening. Of course, the U.S. could act like Rome and try to take over the world. Most of our history, we have tried to stay out of things outside of the Western Hemisphere. Other countries bring us into conflicts.
America appointed itself World Police during the Cold War and has never relinquished that title. Maybe it's because other nations have become dependent, but it is what it is.

drtom2005
08-26-2012, 07:39 PM
America appointed itself World Police during the Cold War and has never relinquished that title. Maybe it's because other nations have become dependent, but it is what it is.

The U.S. thinks of itself as World Police? Many citizens in this country would like that title taken away. Truthfully, the U.S. has been forced to become world police. When the U.S doesn't do anything, we are criticized. When we take action and do not do things the way others want them done, we are criticized. Sounds like the world gets to have their cake and eat it too.

JustAlex
08-26-2012, 08:28 PM
The U.S. thinks of itself as World Police? Many citizens in this country would like that title taken away. Truthfully, the U.S. has been forced to become world police. When the U.S doesn't do anything, we are criticized. When we take action and do not do things the way others want them done, we are criticized. Sounds like the world gets to have their cake and eat it too.
Hmm....I haven't thought about it that way, but I think you're spot on again.

The U.S is indeed massively criticized when it DOESN'T take action and we all know how much they are are bombarded when they do take action.

Personally.....and I hate to say this, but......I think we need to stay 100% neutral on all world issues, get out of the middle east and let every country handle their own business.

The world should NOT get to have their cake and eat it too.

If there was ever a time that we need money here at home it is RIGHT NOW.


Sorry, but I tend to have a VERY selfish attitude when it comes to this topic, we should ALWAYS help ourselves first and foremost and then IF we can we help the world.

Every other country acts this way, why can't we???

Wickabee
08-26-2012, 09:15 PM
The U.S. thinks of itself as World Police? Many citizens in this country would like that title taken away. Truthfully, the U.S. has been forced to become world police. When the U.S doesn't do anything, we are criticized. When we take action and do not do things the way others want them done, we are criticized. Sounds like the world gets to have their cake and eat it too.

How many times do I have to say this. I am not talking about individual citizens. I am talking about the nation. The government. The military.

drtom2005
08-26-2012, 10:28 PM
How many times do I have to say this. I am not talking about individual citizens. I am talking about the nation. The government. The military.

That is not the point. Has the U.S. done bad? Yes. Has the country done good things? Yes. Can other countries do better? I don't know. I think they should try, though, if they have major problems with how the world is going.

habsheaven
08-27-2012, 08:10 AM
In defense of US foreign policy (which I do not do often); it is hard to blame the US for their involvement all over the world. There has been a war of idealogies for centuries and it would have been naive to isolate yourself in the world while Communism & Fascism grew throughout the world. The US and Britain for the most part were the only countries in a position to fight these idealogies around the world in defense of democracy. I think that, as much as oil, is the major reason the US found itself so involved in the rest of the world.