PDA

View Full Version : The Philosophy thread.



JustAlex
09-07-2012, 04:04 PM
OK, I gotta admit, philosophy is something I have always been very interested in.

I feel that we don't get to talk about it that much around here, and I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread on it.

Here we can talk about any philosophical topics.


So, I'll begin......with the problem of "Eternal Life".

The majority of religions have taught that humans are eternal, that when they die their soul/spirit/essence will live on for "Eternity" in another place/reality/life/incomprehensible state.


The problem with most of these teachings is that they only promise this "eternal life" once you are born, what about Pre-life?

If a soul/spirit/essence is real and if it is "eternal" then why can't any of us remember anything before we were born?

If that sounds like a silly question, then maybe you should ask it more often.

Why do we naturally assume there is an afterlife if we are so sure that there isn't a pre-life.


Why is one reasonable to accept but not the other?

indexed
09-07-2012, 04:07 PM
everything begins after IT ends.

mrveggieman
09-07-2012, 04:10 PM
OK, I gotta admit, philosophy is something I have always been very interested in.

I feel that we don't get to talk about it that much around here, and I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread on it.

Here we can talk about any philosophical topics.


So, I'll begin......with the problem of "Eternal Life".

The majority of religions have taught that humans are eternal, that when they die their soul/spirit/essence will live on for "Eternity" in another place/reality/life/incomprehensible state.


The problem with most of these teachings is that they only promise this "eternal life" once you are born, what about Pre-life?

If a soul/spirit/essence is real and if it is "eternal" then why can't any of us remember anything before we were born?

If that sounds like a silly question, then maybe you should ask it more often.

Why do we naturally assume there is an afterlife if we are so sure that there isn't a pre-life.


Why is one reasonable to accept but not the other?


Some religions believe in reincarnation and I have actually heard that earlier versions of the bible made refrence to such but it has since been removed. I can't verify if it is fact or not and nobody else on here can either.

Wickabee
09-07-2012, 04:12 PM
My take on afterlife is this.
It's a religious teaching, but it permeates all religions. The source, to me, seems to be much more human than that. With the anti-aging industry being a cut-throat one worth billions upon billions of dollars, it's not hard to see that people inherently want to live forever. Reality, though, tells us we don't, never have and probably never will.

Enter the afterlife

The idea that your soul goes somewhere to continue on and is either rewarded or tortured based on the life you lived comes from the want and need to live forever running head on into the knowledge that we can't. It's more comforting to believe that you deceased loved one is continuing on without you than rotting in the ground. It's easier to say, "she's with God now" than "she's got maggots now" and we act accordingly.

People also use the afterlife as a "Santa's watching" or "Just wait until I tell your father". If you're good, you continue with your soul and are rewarded for eternity. If not, you continue with your soul and are tortured for eternity. So you'd better be good.

Basically, in my mind, the idea of afterlife is a very human one constructed for comfort and to keep people in line.

JustAlex
09-07-2012, 04:15 PM
everything begins after IT ends.
But doesn't that contradicts the ideal of "eternal"......you know something that doesn't have a beginning or end?

Have you ever thought about this?

So, we live 70 years on earth, then it's millions, billions, trillions, quadrillions, quintillion, sextillion years! Doing what?

Doesn't this make life on earth utterly pointless?!?!

Wickabee
09-07-2012, 04:38 PM
I don't know about souls, but the Bible does claim that God himself is "The alpha and the omega" and "from time everlasting to time everlasting" indicating that he was never born and will never die. We don't care so much about "never born" for ourselves, but never die sounds great.

JustAlex
09-07-2012, 04:59 PM
I don't know about souls, but the Bible does claim that God himself is "The alpha and the omega" and "from time everlasting to time everlasting" indicating that he was never born and will never die. We don't care so much about "never born" for ourselves, but never die sounds great.
I think the christian god is the perfect example of "one-upmanship"

Think about it.

Let's say a group says "My god is super powerful and can create life".

Oh yeah!

Well my god is omnipresent!

Oh Yeah!

Well my god is omniscience!

Oh YEAH!

Well my god is ETERNAL!

So the christian god is everything and more! And yet, somehow, the devil still poses a threat to him and his creation?

HOW? WHY?

Imagine if a superhero had every single power that any superhero can have......super strength, invisibility, super speed, telekinesis, etc.

How could there be any crime?


How can evil exist in a reality where there is a god that literally has every single power, where he can create just by speaking, where he knows everything in advance, where he is immortal, where he can do whatever he pleases?

It just doesn't make sense...

Wickabee
09-07-2012, 05:15 PM
I think the christian god is the perfect example of "one-upmanship"

Think about it.

Let's say a group says "My god is super powerful and can create life".

Oh yeah!

Well my god is omnipresent!

Oh Yeah!

Well my god is omniscience!

Oh YEAH!

Well my god is ETERNAL!
Sort of, but religions didn't come to be through schoolyard arguments. As much as it seems NOW that they act this way (and they sort of do) the idea of an eternal God does not come from a need to "one-up" anyone. I see what you're saying and, were religion or the idea of an eternal God a fairly new construct, I might even agree. The reality is you are simplifying it too much, and putting a competitiveness into the actual original construct of the belief, which does not exist. Competition exists now, but when the beliefs were thought up or taught or however they came to be, it just simply wasn't as you see it here.


So the christian god is everything and more! And yet, somehow, the devil still poses a threat to him and his creation?
Not to him, just his creation. Satan challenged God and God cast him out of heaven for it. He did not simply destroy Satan because"
A - He loved Satan. Satan was, at one time, God's #2 or Cpt. Riker, if you will.
B - Simply destroying Satan would do just that, and nothing more. He doesn't prove Satan wrong in challenging his authority.

As many people who think God should have just killed Satan think that the President taking the same approach to a challenger would be horrible. Sounds to me like that has nothing to do with what is right or wrong and everything to do with finding fault with God no matter the situation, actions or words.


HOW? WHY?
Satan poses a threat because he has the ability to deceive people and take them "off the path". Again, he doesn't pose a threat to God himself, or to heaven, but to us he does. "Kill him" you say? Well, logic would dictate that another angel in high standing would see that and realize that it did not prove Satan wrong and that Satan could still very well be right. It's like a father using one misbehaving child as an example.


Imagine if a superhero had every single power that any superhero can have......super strength, invisibility, super speed, telekinesis, etc.

How could there be any crime?
Unfortunately, God is not a DC character...



How can evil exist in a reality where there is a god that literally has every single power, where he can create just by speaking, where he knows everything in advance, where he is immortal, where he can do whatever he pleases?

It just doesn't make sense...

It makes sense once you realize that, while God is God and he loves everyone very much, he's not going to do everything for you. There is value to living through pain, making it through hardships, succeeding where it seemed impossible. There is value in loss and learning. If everything was great and there was no death, no discomfort, no evil, no hunger, there would be no learning. It would be a useless endeavor and completely unnecessary. If you want to live in a world of complete and total blissful idiocy with no progress of any kind, that's your business. I don't want to, that's for sure.

Do you want everything done for you? Maybe that's why you don't believe in God.

shrewsbury
09-07-2012, 05:19 PM
if we look at the idea of wu ji, we will see that everything has come from one and returns to it. so your pre and post existence is eternal. when the wu ji divided it created the two, or a term most are familiar with, yin and yang. then the two splits, and this continues.

interesting enough it syncs up with modern technology, 8, 64, 256, and so on. it also lines up with Judaic teachings, the I Ching and many other religions and teachings.

whether you believe you came from the dirt and will return, came from the atom and will return, came from a god and will return, it all involves pre and post eternal existence.

even evolution and the big bang are designed around this idea, we all started from a single source, thus we are part of this source, and will always be, our human life it just one phase of how we effect and relate to the universe.

JustAlex
09-07-2012, 05:39 PM
I read your entire post and like usual I very much appreciate your responses, I'm targeting only one quote because I felt it was the biggest and most important one.


Do you want everything done for you? Maybe that's why you don't believe in God.

No, I don't want everything done for me, but at the same time there is too much nonsense in the world to make me belief that god is real or cares.

However, that is not the reason I don't believe in him.

I don't believe because there is no evidence.

However, I'm not closed to the idea that god COULD exist, I just need evidence.....and I'm talking about REAL testable evidence, not an "experience".

Wickabee
09-07-2012, 05:43 PM
alex, that you do or do not want everything done for you wasn't my point (though it was a good natured shot, I suppose).

Though I must ask, who's to say that "experience" isn't actual proof that you yourself simply haven't experienced yet?

shrewsbury
09-07-2012, 05:45 PM
Care is a human feeling and word. for us to think we know "the end" all only limits our learning and understanding. who to say that any god should care in the sense of our understanding of the word?

alex, what you bring up is one of the major causes for believing and not believing in a god. this and our ego, which wants us to be eternal, is what drives most in either direction. i personally don't think it is about either, nor do i think i know anything but that.

JustAlex
09-07-2012, 05:54 PM
alex, that you do or do not want everything done for you wasn't my point (though it was a good natured shot, I suppose).

Oh....yeah, I thought it was a little weird you asked it that way :D:


Though I must ask, who's to say that "experience" isn't actual proof that you yourself simply haven't experienced yet?
I've been told that before...

My mom has told me that she has heard the voice of god, and how he saved her.

I don't think she's lying, but I also don't think it was god.

Here's the reason:


If you go religion by religion, you will find all kinds of people that will tell you that they have had an "experience", but how can this be so, if they all have different beliefs and different gods?

I've said it before.....it's either ALL or NONE.....and I believe it's NONE.

JustAlex
09-07-2012, 05:59 PM
LOL.....I just noticed that my comment is setting me up for a "Contact" type moment when Jodie Foster's character has to explain how she had an "experience" that she could not explain but she knew it was real.

Thus being an atheist, she had to conclude that some things are indeed meant to be taken by faith.

Wickabee
09-07-2012, 06:01 PM
I've been told that before...

My mom has told me that she has heard the voice of god, and how he saved her.

I don't think she's lying, but I also don't think it was god.

Here's the reason:


If you go religion by religion, you will find all kinds of people that will tell you that they have had an "experience", but how can this be so, if they all have different beliefs and different gods?


Here's the thing, maybe they're not all worshiping different gods. Judaism, Islam and Christianity all worship the God of Abraham, they all do it differently, though. Same goes for denominations within those religions.

Perhaps, everyone worships the same god, whether they call him this, that or the other thing and regardless of whether they do or do not eat pork or drink coffee or whatever. Perhaps God isn't the God of Abraham, but something else entirely. Perhaps, God sees those who are pure hearted and he touches those. Perhaps that is "the experience"

And perhaps people have been so brainwashed over so many centuries that the inherent first reaction to that experience is to seek religion, or further your current relationship with God through religion, because that's all we've been taught for so long, that religion is the way to God. It's a teaching even you seem to be working under. I agree with every word you have to say about religion, though I do see a few good qualities to it as well. But you and I do not see eye to eye on God at all. As much as religion has made up their minds about what God is, you've made up your mind about what he should be and, since he isn't, you disbelieve.

Just my thoughts, as usual.



I've said it before.....it's either ALL or NONE.....and I believe it's NONE.
This viewpoint will only ever leave you disappointed and jaded. It doesn't matter what subject you're talking about, all or nothing RARELY leads to truth, morality, correctness or anything good.

Sometimes, but RARELY.

JustAlex
09-07-2012, 06:12 PM
I can accept god(s), but not religion.

As for my "all or nothing" viewpoint that was only in regards to religion, not every thing in life.

Wickabee
09-07-2012, 06:20 PM
I can accept god(s), but not religion.
So you say, but then you have the "All or nothing" thing. I've seen you post that if you're going to accept God you have to accept Thor and Oden and etc etc. but that makes no sense.

For example let's say you don't know who the Prime Minister of Canada is and it can't be proven who is running Canada.
Now, let's say I told you that Stephen Harper is Prime Minister of Canada.
After which Shrew tells you, no no, it's Rick Mercer.
And then dru chimes in saying it's actually Jack Layton
Before Duane comes in and says it's not any of them, it's Bob McKenzie.

Now, the reality is Stephen Harper is PM, Rick Mercer is a comedian/political satirist, Bob McKenzie is a hockey analyst for TSN and Jack Layton is dead.

But, by your "all or nothing" logic, either all of them are PM or there is no PM, simply because 4 PEOPLE cannot agree.

It's the same with religion, because a bunch of theories exist and everyone can't agree on one, then there's either no god or 20,000,000 gods. THAT makes no sense to me.


As for my "all or nothing" viewpoint that was only in regards to religion, not every thing in life.

I kind of thought so.

drtom2005
09-07-2012, 08:23 PM
I have thought about this awhile. I do not believe in a pre-life, athough the depending on the definition of afterlife, it could be possible. Of course, it is not what most people believe it to be.

Humans are biochemical machines at the base level and are always giving off electirc wave patterns, which likely affect quantum particles on this level. Possibly, in the future, we could reintegrate the previous brain patterns. My brain waves are likely eternal, not this body.

JustAlex
09-07-2012, 09:05 PM
I have thought about this awhile. I do not believe in a pre-life, athough the depending on the definition of afterlife, it could be possible. Of course, it is not what most people believe it be.

Humans are biochemical machine at the base level and are always giving off electirc wave patterns, which likely affect quantum particles on this level. Possibly, in the future, we could reintegrate the previous brain patterns. My brain waves are likely eternal, not this body.
Now, THAT.....would be awesome!

I very much believe we all get one and only one life, and when we die we will simply cease to exist.....that's why I hope that science keeps improving and maybe in the near future there will be some way that humans can live longer, A LOT LONGER!

I like the idea of having your brain waves reintegrated, although this does sound a bit science-fiction.....kinda like clones?

Either way, if I get to live longer, I would definitely be all for it.

drtom2005
09-07-2012, 09:13 PM
Now, THAT.....would be awesome!

I very much believe we all get one and only one life, and when we die we will simply cease to exist.....that's why I hope that science keeps improving and maybe in the near future there will be some way that humans can live longer, A LOT LONGER!

I like the idea of having your brain waves reintegrated, although this does sound a bit science-fiction.....kinda like clones?

Either way, if I get to live longer, I would definitely be all for it.

Yeah kind of science fiction-like, but so were cell phones, computers, and robots. Quantum particles are always interacting. We would have to be able get through the interference but it could be possible.

JustAlex
09-07-2012, 09:25 PM
Yeah kind of science fiction-like, but so were cell phones, computers, and robots. Quantum particles are always interacting. We would have to be able get through the interference but it could possible.
Hmm....good point.

I gotta say, quantum mechanics is a very interesting branch of physics, and the possibilities are limitless.

This is why I like science so much, it works, it makes sense, and when used the right way it does wonders.

shrewsbury
09-07-2012, 09:59 PM
wickabee, that is strange the quote has me on it, but it is something alex posted

Wickabee
09-07-2012, 11:33 PM
Lazy copy/editing

shrewsbury
09-07-2012, 11:49 PM
i figured it was a set up!!!!!! i know how you work!!! dang canadians!!

Wickabee
09-08-2012, 12:11 AM
We prefer to be capitalized. It's a respect thing.

theonedru
09-08-2012, 12:59 AM
I will throw this out there for you guys. The possibility of a life after our bodies die using just science

so if the body consists of energy and energy can be neither created nor destroyed then can it not be argued the following? Upon death energy in some conscious state leaves the body and disperses itself into the universe becoming one with the all. And that ones ability to control this energy can result in either a total absorption into the cosmos, or if owning to a stronger constitution can reform in some state to appear as some ghostly figure (details depending on ones ability to pull the energy together to do so clarity, ability to manipulate objects and such). It could also be looked upon as ones soul surviving on afterwards in a way.

drtom2005
09-08-2012, 02:38 AM
I will throw this out there for you guys. The possibility of a life after our bodies die using just science

so if the body consists of energy and energy can be neither created nor destroyed then can it not be argued the following? Upon death energy in some conscious state leaves the body and disperses itself into the universe becoming one with the all. And that ones ability to control this energy can result in either a total absorption into the cosmos, or if owning to a stronger constitution can reform in some state to appear as some ghostly figure (details depending on ones ability to pull the energy together to do so clarity, ability to manipulate objects and such). It could also be looked upon as ones soul surviving on afterwards in a way.

Somewhat, but I disagree on a couple of points.
Once energy goes to a low state(brain waves going out into the universe), it takes more energy to reform them. An intelligent being would have to be doing this. This does not mean a god.
Second, quantnum particles interact, they do not communicate. You would have to be able to take a "snapshot" of the quantum field to reverse enigneer with our technology right now. Once again,does not require a god.
Third, quantum mechanics is our best understanding of how the universe works now. It is pretty close, but does not describe how gravity works on the quantum level, yet. It might be incomplete. So my ruminations about the possbility are wrong until scientifical proven.
Random particles going to a higher energy state to cause a "ghost" violates the laws of physics.
There is no evidence for a god, so until there is evidence. God can not do any of these things.

theonedru
09-08-2012, 08:15 AM
Somewhat, but I disagree on a couple of points.
Once energy goes to a low state(brain waves going out into the universe), it takes more energy to reform them. An intelligent being would have to be doing this. This does not mean a god.
Second, quantnum particles interact, they do not communicate. You would have to be able to take a "snapshot" of the quantum field to reverse enigneer with our technology right now. Once again,does not require a god.
Third, quantum mechanics is our best understanding of how the universe works now. It is pretty close, but does not describe how gravity works on the quantum level, yet. It might be incomplete. So my ruminations about the possbility are wrong until scientifical proven.
Random particles going to a higher energy state to cause a "ghost" violates the laws of physics.
There is no evidence for a god, so until there is evidence. God can not do any of these things.

I do not know how God got into this...... I made no reference to one. I think the theory is plausible, maybe not concrete but plausible