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cbuskstwar
09-12-2012, 12:22 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/american-killed-libya-protest-over-film-030047940.html

cbuskstwar
09-12-2012, 09:02 AM
Reported now 3 Americans are dead.

AUTaxMan
09-12-2012, 09:19 AM
I don't think the President has even addressed the media about this yet. On top of that, we actually apologized for being attacked yesterday. What the hell is going on in D.C.?

pghin08
09-12-2012, 09:36 AM
He's talking about it in a press conference soon.

cbuskstwar
09-12-2012, 09:49 AM
Where are you at Obama, Americans are dead, do something.

mrveggieman
09-12-2012, 10:03 AM
Where are you at Obama, Americans are dead, do something.


It's a bird, it's a plane, no it's President Obama to the rescue. He leaps tall buildings in a single bound, walks on water, turns water into wine and was even crucified and rose from the dead after 3 days. Don't worry conservatives he will singlehandly solve this problem in the middle east even though he was not the one to cause it. Just like everything else that you expect him to do.

AUTaxMan
09-12-2012, 10:08 AM
It's a bird, it's a plane, no it's President Obama to the rescue. He leaps tall buildings in a single bound, walks on water, turns water into wine and was even crucified and rose from the dead after 3 days. Don't worry conservatives he will singlehandly solve this problem in the middle east even though he was not the one to cause it. Just like everything else that you expect him to do.

mrv, you expect the President to do nothing, then, when American citizens are killed and American soil is attacked? He did not cause this problem, but he was a contributing factor. Do you think these attacks would have happened if Mubarack and Gaddafi were still in power? Obama championed their overthrow and has capitulated to Muslim sensibilities in the M.E. since the day he took office. They have absolutely no respect for our sovereignty. He has been weak on foreign policy, and that weakness empowers those who hate us to attack us like this, because they know that there will be no retribution. He speaks softly and carries no stick.

cbuskstwar
09-12-2012, 10:18 AM
It's a bird, it's a plane, no it's President Obama to the rescue. He leaps tall buildings in a single bound, walks on water, turns water into wine and was even crucified and rose from the dead after 3 days. Don't worry conservatives he will singlehandly solve this problem in the middle east even though he was not the one to cause it. Just like everything else that you expect him to do.

I do expect him to lead, not be silent. Were is our great leader? All I ask is that he make a stand, is that to much?

pghin08
09-12-2012, 10:48 AM
Boy, for a couple of people who claim that Obama and the Democrats blame everything on Bush, you're really blaming everything on Obama. If you guys decide to turn on the TV, you'll hear Obama holding a press conference on this. Not sure what all he has to do to appease you.

AUTaxMan
09-12-2012, 10:51 AM
Boy, for a couple of people who claim that Obama and the Democrats blame everything on Bush, you're really blaming everything on Obama. If you guys decide to turn on the TV, you'll hear Obama holding a press conference on this. Not sure what all he has to do to appease you.

At the time of my posting, there had been no response. If there has been one by now, I'd like to know what it is.

cbuskstwar
09-12-2012, 10:53 AM
I'm at work, no T.V. here, I will google and see what he said.

I'm not trying to blame anything on him, how could anyone control what some extremists do, just want him to address the issue and lead us.

AUTaxMan
09-12-2012, 11:00 AM
I can't find anything from Obama on google other than this:

"“While the United States rejects efforts to denigrate the religious beliefs of others, we must all unequivocally oppose the kind of senseless violence that took the lives of these public servants."

I don't think it was from a press conference. It think it was just a statement he issued.

Just found this:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/obama-clinton-condemn-outrageous-attack-on-us-ambassador/article4538806/

pghin08
09-12-2012, 11:21 AM
He gave a speech from the Rose Garden. There's a video in this link.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/12/u-s-ambassador-to-libya-3-others-killed-in-rocket-attack-witness-says/?hpt=hp_t1

cbuskstwar
09-12-2012, 11:47 AM
I was intially upset about the communciation from the US Embassy in Egypt that were apoligizing for the movie making fun of the Muslim religion, rather than condeming the murder of US citizens.

pghin08
09-12-2012, 12:00 PM
I was intially upset about the communciation from the US Embassy in Egypt that were apoligizing for the movie making fun of the Muslim religion, rather than condeming the murder of US citizens.

"Before news spread that four Americans had been killed in Benghazi, Romney yesterday issued a statement saying in part: “It’s disgraceful that the Obama administration’s first response was not to condemn attacks on our diplomatic missions, but to sympathize with those who waged the attacks.”
This is an attack that does not stand up to simple chronology.
Asked what Romney was referring to, his campaign pointed to a statement from the US Embassy in Cairo issued a statement (http://egypt.usembassy.gov/pr091112.html%20) “condemn(ing) the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims” — referring to the anti-Muslim movie allegedly inflaming the demonstrators, rioters, and attackers — but that statement was issued before the attacks on the diplomatic missions.
Romney was not the only one who took issue with the statement, which was criticized for “redefin(ing) and limit(ing) freedom of speech to that speech which others, and, explicitly Muslims, do not find offensive,” in the words of Nina Shea of Freedom House (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/316550/us-embassy-favors-religious-feelings-over-free-speech-attacked-anyway-nina-shea#).
The White House also seemed to take issue with it. An Obama administration official ABC News that “no one in Washington approved that statement before it was released and it doesn’t reflect the views of the U.S. government.”


http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2012/09/the_politics_of_the_attacks_on_the_us_consulate_in _benghazi_and_cair/

mrveggieman
09-12-2012, 12:20 PM
Romney is a islamophobic idiot just like most of the republican party.

AUTaxMan
09-12-2012, 12:28 PM
Romney is a islamophobic idiot just like most of the republican party.

I don't understand why you insist on lying to yourself about all things politic.

Wickabee
09-12-2012, 12:54 PM
I don't understand why you insist on lying to yourself about all things politic.

Says the guy who thinks voter ID laws aren't intended to hand the election to Romney...

cbuskstwar
09-12-2012, 01:00 PM
Romney is a islamophobic idiot just like most of the republican party.

On the cool, nice constructive comment, Muslims kill 4 americans and this is all you can say.

cbuskstwar
09-12-2012, 01:01 PM
Says the guy who thinks voter ID laws aren't intended to hand the election to Romney...

Voters laws have nothing to do with this thread, please read the thread.

Wickabee
09-12-2012, 01:05 PM
Voters laws have nothing to do with this thread, please read the thread.

If you don't get the point of the post, just move on plsthx

cbuskstwar
09-12-2012, 01:17 PM
If you don't get the point of the post, just move on plsthx

Talking about 4 dead and you insist?

mrveggieman
09-12-2012, 01:31 PM
My condolonces go out to the dead and it's so sad that people have to die because of politics and religion but on the cool it hate mongers like terry jones would have not made an inflamatory video about islam we would not be having this conversation.

Wickabee
09-12-2012, 01:38 PM
Talking about 4 dead and you insist?

See post #21

cbuskstwar
09-12-2012, 03:17 PM
My condolonces go out to the dead and it's so sad that people have to die because of politics and religion but on the cool it hate mongers like terry jones would have not made an inflamatory video about islam we would not be having this conversation.

So your saying that they had good reason? got ya.

cbuskstwar
09-12-2012, 03:18 PM
See post #21

see post #22

mrveggieman
09-12-2012, 03:27 PM
So your saying that they had good reason? got ya.

No one has a right to murder another human being but thanks for putting words in my mouth just the same.

Wickabee
09-12-2012, 03:30 PM
see post #22

Ooh, clever. Did you come up with that all by yourself?

What's next, "I'm rubber you're glue" or, "na na-na boo boo"?

and I know you didn't understand the post, since you think I'm trying to take the topic to something else. I'm not, I'm saying one guy's post is non-sensical as he's just as bad.

like I said, if you don't understand, just move on.

pghin08
09-12-2012, 03:43 PM
Guys, come on, enough.

boba
09-12-2012, 04:06 PM
My condolonces go out to the dead and it's so sad that people have to die because of politics and religion but on the cool it hate mongers like terry jones would have not made an inflamatory video about islam we would not be having this conversation.

Do you know how many anti Christian videos are on youtube? I think the hate mongers are the murderers.

Wickabee
09-12-2012, 04:12 PM
Do you know how many anti Christian videos are on youtube? I think the hate mongers are the murderers.

Both sides are guilty of hate mongering.

boba
09-12-2012, 04:15 PM
Both sides are guilty of hate mongering.

I agree with that, I just can't believe that someone could blame a guy for the death of 3 people because he posted a hateful video on youtube.

Doesn't this prove Islam has some problems? This being that extreme Muslims can't deal with hate without killing? It seems that Islam has a history with this kind of thing.

mrveggieman
09-12-2012, 04:19 PM
Do you know how many anti Christian videos are on youtube? I think the hate mongers are the murderers.


Yes I am aware of those thanks for asking. BTW I despise those as much as I despise the anti-muslim ones however I do support the youtuber's freedom of speech. And I also agree that the people who killed the Americans overseas because of those hateful videos were way out of line and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

mrveggieman
09-12-2012, 04:22 PM
I agree with that, I just can't believe that someone could blame a guy for the death of 3 people because he posted a hateful video on youtube.


Again the fanatics were wrong to murder an innocent guy or anyone else that reason because their religion was offended. That being said it was careless and insensitive for people like terry jones to post videos like that knowing that it will only fan the flames of hate and could put innocent people's lives at risk. Not to mention that he is a "preacher" and he should be setting a better example for the general public.

boba
09-12-2012, 04:27 PM
Again the fanatics were wrong to murder an innocent guy or anyone else that reason because their religion was offended. That being said it was careless and insensitive for people like terry jones to post videos like that knowing that it will only fan the flames of hate and could put innocent people's lives at risk. Not to mention that he is a "preacher" and he should be setting a better example for the general public.
Doesn't the bolded part in and of itself show that Islam has serious Problems?

mrveggieman
09-12-2012, 04:30 PM
Doesn't the bolded part in and of itself show that Islam has serious Problems?


Right and we all know that there are absolutely no problems within the christian church. :rolleyes:

boba
09-12-2012, 04:36 PM
Right and we all know that there are absolutely no problems within the christian church. :rolleyes:

Didn't say that, but remind me when another religion killed someone because they didn't like what that group of people posted on youtube.

btw this video looks like the muslim version of the book of mormon, I don't see any mormons killing anyone over this.

cardmasters
09-12-2012, 05:56 PM
U.S. officials believe Libya attack was planned

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/report-u-officials-believe-libya-attack-planned-171504894.html

pwaldo
09-12-2012, 06:14 PM
I posted a thread about this yesterday and nobody seemed to care.....

AUTaxMan
09-12-2012, 06:14 PM
I posted a thread about this yesterday and nobody seemed to care.....

Not much action around here at night.

Wickabee
09-12-2012, 06:48 PM
I agree with that, I just can't believe that someone could blame a guy for the death of 3 people because he posted a hateful video on youtube.

Doesn't this prove Islam has some problems? This being that extreme Muslims can't deal with hate without killing? It seems that Islam has a history with this kind of thing.

There are serious problems in just about every organization. No need to single out Muslims. They're no better than anyone else.

boba
09-12-2012, 07:01 PM
There are serious problems in just about every organization. No need to single out Muslims. They're no better than anyone else.

I haven't been killing anyone.

Like I said a couple of posts ago, show me when a christian killed people because of an anti christian youtube video, or show me when a mormon has killed anyone because of the broadway play, the book of mormon. Radical Islam has a history of this kind of thing, people are afraid to write comic strips about Islam. Am I saying that christians don't do anything wrong? No, and I think everyone realizes that.

ensbergcollector
09-12-2012, 10:22 PM
everyone always tries to say that "all religions are like this" or "there are extremists in every religion" or "the christians extremists in this country would be doing the same if they could." Problem is, there is no truth to those statements. Hollywood is not afraid to mock jesus or christians, yet they are afraid to write or say anything bad about islam or muhammed. why is that?

when is the last time a mob of violent christians killed someone over a movie or a cartoon? I am not talking about extreme individuals and I am not saying that muslim extremists represent all muslims. however, people keep using a broad brush stroke when these things happen and just say that this is all religions and yet time and time again it is proven that no, this is not all religions.

*just so people to make leaps to avoid what I actually wrote. I do not think all muslims are extremists. In fact, I know multiple muslims who, while supporting islam, agree with me that this is not a problem in other religions. I also do not think individuals of other religions or of no religion are incapable of the same type of violence. I just think we need to stop comparing things that cannot be compared.

Wickabee
09-12-2012, 11:41 PM
I haven't been killing anyone.
I was unaware you are an organization.


Like I said a couple of posts ago, show me when a christian killed people because of an anti christian youtube video, or show me when a mormon has killed anyone because of the broadway play, the book of mormon. Radical Islam has a history of this kind of thing, people are afraid to write comic strips about Islam. Am I saying that christians don't do anything wrong? No, and I think everyone realizes that.

I understand what you're saying, and if killing someone was the worst possible thing you could do to a person, I would agree. But I don't necessarily think it is. Catholic priests touch little boys and the organization looks the other way. I don't know about you, but I think that's horrible.

Not to mention, I wasn't saying Christianity is just as bad, or even religion. Major organizations all have skeletons in their closet they don't want you to know about. Look at Penn State! Even most charities are dirty one way or another. Does Islam have a problem? Yeah. Are they the worst? I don't think so. At least they're out in the open about it. They want to kill you, they will no matter what time of day it is, and then they'll tell everyone about it. They don't hide it once it's been done, like most other organizations do.

Notice I never once said yours was a racist statement. I thought it, but I didn't say it.

JustAlex
09-13-2012, 12:25 AM
Doesn't this prove Islam has some problems? This being that extreme Muslims can't deal with hate without killing? It seems that Islam has a history with this kind of thing.
Of course it does.

Just like EVERY religion has it's extreme radicals that do horrible things.

Don't think that christians are exempt.....Breivik is a christian, and of course all the christians here in America who have bombed abortion clinics and killed abortion doctors.

This is why religion is so dangerous.

What it does to the simple minded is truly frightening....and the reason it happens more for Muslims is because they live in countries where there are no freedoms, where the church is the state.

That is why the U.S must NEVER become a christian state.

Rockman
09-13-2012, 01:51 AM
It's not a valid excuse, but it is clear the Muslim world is going through some growing pains right now. Islam is about 600 years younger than Christianity and Christians were doing some pretty horrendous stuff 600 years ago. Who knows how Christianity would have reacted 600 years ago if the world had all the technology and resources then that it has now. Religion is different than people, it ages and evolves slower than we do as a society.

boba
09-13-2012, 02:09 AM
Of course it does.

Just like EVERY religion has it's extreme radicals that do horrible things.

Don't think that christians are exempt.....Breivik is a christian, and of course all the christians here in America who have bombed abortion clinics and killed abortion doctors.

This is why religion is so dangerous.

What it does to the simple minded is truly frightening....and the reason it happens more for Muslims is because they live in countries where there are no freedoms, where the church is the state.

That is why the U.S must NEVER become a christian state.

Wasn't Breivik motivated by politics, not religion? Sure there are some crazy Christians just like there are crazy evolutionists and crazy everything, but there is nothing in the Bible that would encourage acts like this. There are verses in the Koran that seem to be ok with this type of act.

And what does the second bolded part mean? You talking about the people who are susceptible to the force mind trick or something ; ). I've seem much worse done from strong minded atheists, but that's a topic for some other thread.

boba
09-13-2012, 02:16 AM
I was unaware you are an organization.



I understand what you're saying, and if killing someone was the worst possible thing you could do to a person, I would agree. But I don't necessarily think it is. Catholic priests touch little boys and the organization looks the other way. I don't know about you, but I think that's horrible.

Not to mention, I wasn't saying Christianity is just as bad, or even religion. Major organizations all have skeletons in their closet they don't want you to know about. Look at Penn State! Even most charities are dirty one way or another. Does Islam have a problem? Yeah. Are they the worst? I don't think so. At least they're out in the open about it. They want to kill you, they will no matter what time of day it is, and then they'll tell everyone about it. They don't hide it once it's been done, like most other organizations do.

Notice I never once said yours was a racist statement. I thought it, but I didn't say it.


I actually see what you are saying, and I don't have an answer right now. All I can say is that the religion I follow is not an organisation.

cowboysrgr8
09-13-2012, 06:21 AM
if a true american was in charge we would of already bombed them to send a message <br />
but what do we do we tell them that we are sorry <br />
some leader we have cant wait till he is out of office...cant...

pghin08
09-13-2012, 08:48 AM
Yeah, because bombing a bunch of innocent people will solve a lot.

mrveggieman
09-13-2012, 08:57 AM
Wasn't Breivik motivated by politics, not religion? Sure there are some crazy Christians just like there are crazy evolutionists and crazy everything, but there is nothing in the Bible that would encourage acts like this. There are verses in the Koran that seem to be ok with this type of act.

And what does the second bolded part mean? You talking about the people who are susceptible to the force mind trick or something ; ). I've seem much worse done from strong minded atheists, but that's a topic for some other thread.



Breivik was motivated by his hatred of muslims. Let's not go there about the verses in the bible that encourage rape, slavery, etc. Or are you going to throw those out because they are in the OT and christinans ignore the OT when it is not convenient for them.

cowboysrgr8
09-13-2012, 08:58 AM
so them killing our innocent people isnt a good enough reason...i dont know what is

mrveggieman
09-13-2012, 09:03 AM
so them killing our innocent people isnt a good enough reason...i dont know what is


Under no circumstances is it a good reason to kill innocent people regardless of who is doing the killing and who is being killed. The only difference between you and a terrorist is the terrorist actually acts out on his hatred of people who are different from them while you spew your venom on a computer.

AUTaxMan
09-13-2012, 09:10 AM
By the way, this whole video thing is nonsense. That video has been on youtube since July 2. It doesn't take 2 months for internet to travel from the USA to North Africa. This was a coordinated attack on America, and the video is just being used as an excuse.

AUTaxMan
09-13-2012, 09:11 AM
Under no circumstances is it a good reason to kill innocent people regardless of who is doing the killing and who is being killed. The only difference between you and a terrorist is the terrorist actually acts out on his hatred of people who are different from them while you spew your venom on a computer.

I don't think cowboysrgr8 wants to kill innocent people for no reason.

ensbergcollector
09-13-2012, 09:14 AM
Breivik was motivated by his hatred of muslims. Let's not go there about the verses in the bible that encourage rape, slavery, etc. Or are you going to throw those out because they are in the OT and christinans ignore the OT when it is not convenient for them.

no, we are going to throw those out because the old law was done away with with jesus. there is no "old law" in the quran. according to muslims, the entire quran is the final word of god and should be followed exactly. according to islam, the jewish scripture and christian scripture are not reliable but every word of the quran is to be followed.
people may not like it when christians say they no longer follow parts of the old testament, but it is ultimately with reason. the same claim cannot be made toward muslims. The verses about killing anyone who does not agree with islam are not "old law" and to try and compare them with the old testament in an attempt to show that "all religions are the same" is short sighted and manipulative.

cowboysrgr8
09-13-2012, 09:15 AM
im just letting you all know that im joking...

im currently deployed over here in afghanistan and im bored so i figured ill get someone butt hurt and it worked...

im just having fun i just dont think we should of appologized for them killing our civilians.

tpeichel
09-13-2012, 09:16 AM
Of course it does.

Just like EVERY religion has it's extreme radicals that do horrible things.

Don't think that christians are exempt.....Breivik is a christian, and of course all the christians here in America who have bombed abortion clinics and killed abortion doctors.

This is why religion is so dangerous.

What it does to the simple minded is truly frightening....and the reason it happens more for Muslims is because they live in countries where there are no freedoms, where the church is the state.

That is why the U.S must NEVER become a christian state.

Are you really trotting out this old atheist argument about the dangers of religion? This has been completely debunked as history has shown that the non-religious have been much more deadly to humans on this planet.

pghin08
09-13-2012, 09:18 AM
im just letting you all know that im joking...

im currently deployed over here in afghanistan and im bored so i figured ill get someone butt hurt and it worked...

im just having fun i just dont think we should of appologized for them killing our civilians.

Lol, it did work! We didn't really apologize for it. The apology was for the video, and that happened just prior to the attack.

By the way, please be safe over there. Any idea when you'll be coming home?

cowboysrgr8
09-13-2012, 09:19 AM
yeah i believe our unit will be back sometime before xmas
this is my 4th deployment 3 to iraq and 1 to afghanistan

AUTaxMan
09-13-2012, 09:23 AM
Let's not turn this into another discussion about the old testament. By now, we all ought to know the arguments on both sides.

mrveggieman
09-13-2012, 09:24 AM
no, we are going to throw those out because the old law was done away with with jesus. there is no "old law" in the quran. according to muslims, the entire quran is the final word of god and should be followed exactly. according to islam, the jewish scripture and christian scripture are not reliable but every word of the quran is to be followed.
people may not like it when christians say they no longer follow parts of the old testament, but it is ultimately with reason. the same claim cannot be made toward muslims. The verses about killing anyone who does not agree with islam are not "old law" and to try and compare them with the old testament in an attempt to show that "all religions are the same" is short sighted and manipulative.

Tell me this. If the OT is now null and void why do christians still make refrence to it and preach OT stories and verses that fit whatever message that they are trying to say at the time?

cbuskstwar
09-13-2012, 09:24 AM
The only difference between you and a terrorist is the terrorist actually acts out on his hatred of people who are different from them while you spew your venom on a computer.

You are the biggest hater on this board, its funny that you said this. ha ha

ensbergcollector
09-13-2012, 09:25 AM
It's not a valid excuse, but it is clear the Muslim world is going through some growing pains right now. Islam is about 600 years younger than Christianity and Christians were doing some pretty horrendous stuff 600 years ago. Who knows how Christianity would have reacted 600 years ago if the world had all the technology and resources then that it has now. Religion is different than people, it ages and evolves slower than we do as a society.

this i think is a good point. not really sure if it is just an evolution of religion or what. i know it isn't an exact parallel but definitely something worth considering

mrveggieman
09-13-2012, 09:25 AM
im just letting you all know that im joking...

im currently deployed over here in afghanistan and im bored so i figured ill get someone butt hurt and it worked...

im just having fun i just dont think we should of appologized for them killing our civilians.


Even though I am against all US involvement in the middle east I want to wish you well over there and come back home in one piece.

mrveggieman
09-13-2012, 09:27 AM
You are the biggest hater on this board, its funny that you said this. ha ha

Tell me again who do I hate because of their race, religion, sexual prefrence or national origin??

AUTaxMan
09-13-2012, 09:27 AM
Tell me this. If the OT is now null and void why do christians still make refrence to it and preach OT stories and verses that fit whatever message that they are trying to say at the time?

Just dig up the 8 zillion other threads discussing this matter and you'll find the answer.

Star_Cards
09-13-2012, 09:28 AM
U.S. officials believe Libya attack was planned

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/report-u-officials-believe-libya-attack-planned-171504894.html

Interesting. It seems weird that they would just now attack the embassy. Surely there are plenty of videos out there that bash islam or say something that would cause muslims to be angry. The internet is a complete free speech zone. I also have no idea but I'd assume that this video had been online for quite some time.

I've never understood people getting so upset about words being spoken about a specific religion that would cause them to take out their anger on people who didn't even say it. This is definitely a negative of religion and why I just don't get it.

ensbergcollector
09-13-2012, 09:29 AM
Tell me this. If the OT is now null and void why do christians still make refrence to it and preach OT stories and verses that fit whatever message that they are trying to say at the time?

now I didn't say the OT was null and void. I said the old law was void. If christians believe that the old testament is true history (not wanting this to turn into a religion thread (oh that couldn't have happened, etc)) then it is still useful in the same way history class is useful. Much about american law and culture is completely different now then 200 years ago and we would never think of trying to live today under the law and ways of 200 years ago, but we still have history class and see value in it. We still quote founding fathers and great historical figures throughout history. Why wouldn't we still quote the OT?
Now, I am fully aware that people pick and choose verses and scripture to prove their point while avoiding others. Not justifying that.

mrveggieman
09-13-2012, 09:40 AM
Just dig up the 8 zillion other threads discussing this matter and you'll find the answer.


I shouldn't have to do that. This thread is trying to suggest that islam and the koran is evil and teaches it followers to do bad things. I countered that those bad things that christians claim muslims do are also found in the bible. The first thing a christian does when presented with that is to say we ignore the OT. How is it ok to bash islam for doing the same thing that christanity does but christans get a free pass?

mrveggieman
09-13-2012, 09:43 AM
now I didn't say the OT was null and void. I said the old law was void. If christians believe that the old testament is true history (not wanting this to turn into a religion thread (oh that couldn't have happened, etc)) then it is still useful in the same way history class is useful. Much about american law and culture is completely different now then 200 years ago and we would never think of trying to live today under the law and ways of 200 years ago, but we still have history class and see value in it. We still quote founding fathers and great historical figures throughout history. Why wouldn't we still quote the OT?
Now, I am fully aware that people pick and choose verses and scripture to prove their point while avoiding others. Not justifying that.


So the question is who is to say what is still good and which ones are unacceptable? I find it extremely dangerous when anyone can pick and choose what verses they follow in their favorite holy book and ignore the ones that don't suit their purpose. This goes for christians, jews, muslims or anyone else.

AUTaxMan
09-13-2012, 09:53 AM
I shouldn't have to do that. This thread is trying to suggest that islam and the koran is evil and teaches it followers to do bad things. I countered that those bad things that christians claim muslims do are also found in the bible. The first thing a christian does when presented with that is to say we ignore the OT. How is it ok to bash islam for doing the same thing that christanity does but christans get a free pass?

Nothing the Bible says is relevant to this discussion. If you want another old testament discussion, start a new thread.

cbuskstwar
09-13-2012, 10:02 AM
Tell me again who do I hate because of their race, religion, sexual prefrence or national origin??

Go back and look at your posts, you said it not me.

ensbergcollector
09-13-2012, 10:08 AM
I shouldn't have to do that. This thread is trying to suggest that islam and the koran is evil and teaches it followers to do bad things. I countered that those bad things that christians claim muslims do are also found in the bible. The first thing a christian does when presented with that is to say we ignore the OT. How is it ok to bash islam for doing the same thing that christanity does but christans get a free pass?

Because christianity is not "doing it." people are bashing islam for what they are doing, and you are countering it with "the bible says." If christians were doing the same things in mass then you would have an argument. but they aren't. Entire countries of muslims do things, entire mobs of muslims do things, and you counter it with individuals or "the old testament says." That is only relevant if christians were using the old testament as an excuse to gather thousands of people and murder.

also, feel free to talk about anything my first post said about the quran instead of just wanting to talk about christians. if your only defense of someone is "others do it to" then you have no defense at all.

mrveggieman
09-13-2012, 10:12 AM
Feel free to join me in this thread if it makes you feel better. Just don't come half steppin'.

http://www.sportscardforum.com/threads/1751818-Islam-vs-Christanity-a-neutral-comparison?p=12051051#post12051051

mrveggieman
09-13-2012, 10:15 AM
Go back and look at your posts, you said it not me.


Dude your realize that I have made over 6000 posts on SCF? If I am such a bigot as you conservatives claim that I am surely you can find at least 1 of my posts that proves such.

AUTaxMan
09-13-2012, 10:21 AM
Now it's happening in Yemen:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/14/world/middleeast/mideast-turmoil-spreads-to-us-embassy-in-yemen.html?_r=1

Wickabee
09-13-2012, 10:35 AM
I actually see what you are saying, and I don't have an answer right now. All I can say is that the religion I follow is not an organisation.

Every religion is an organization.

Wickabee
09-13-2012, 10:37 AM
Nothing the Bible says is relevant to this discussion. If you want another old testament discussion, start a new thread.

Actually, in that context, it had plenty to do with this thread...

mrveggieman
09-13-2012, 10:47 AM
Here's the deal. Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt. That being said you does it really make sense to go up to a group of people who some of them have been know to commit acts of violence and say something inflamatory just to see what type of rise that you can get? Just because you have the right to say whatever you want dosen't mean that you should actually say whatever you want.

ensbergcollector
09-13-2012, 10:51 AM
Here's the deal. Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt. That being said you does it really make sense to go up to a group of people who some of them have been know to commit acts of violence and say something inflamatory just to see what type of rise that you can get? Just because you have the right to say whatever you want dosen't mean that you should actually say whatever you want.

who are you referring to? are you saying the video in question should never have been made because we should have known that doing so would cause deaths?

boba
09-13-2012, 11:05 AM
Every religion is an organization.

Sure, if you use this definition.
organization: a group of people who work together

mrveggieman
09-13-2012, 11:07 AM
who are you referring to? are you saying the video in question should never have been made because we should have known that doing so would cause deaths?

I think that video was in poor tastes and I wouldn't have made any video like that. I remember when I was in sunday school once I asked my teacher about a black preacher who said he was going take down all pictures of white jesus from his church and burn them. My teacher asked how many people are going to be saved because of this preacher's actions. I pose the same thing to the people who made this video. From what I heard they are some type of right wing loon christian organization. How many people are going to be saved from them making this anti islam video?

ensbergcollector
09-13-2012, 11:12 AM
I think that video was in poor tastes and I wouldn't have made any video like that. I remember when I was in sunday school once I asked my teacher about a black preacher who said he was going take down all pictures of white jesus from his church and burn them. My teacher asked how many people are going to be saved because of this preacher's actions. I pose the same thing to the people who made this video. From what I heard they are some type of right wing loon christian organization. How many people are going to be saved from them making this anti islam video?

first of all, i would not have made the video either. but i don't see how that is relevant. it is your belief that because muslims are prone to violence, it is best if no one in the world ever says or does anything offensive to muslims. do you have the same belief about people doing things offensive to christians? probably not. and the reason is probably because christians have shown that you will not be killed, or innocent people will not be killed, if you draw a cartoon or have a movie about christianity. which is the point many people are trying to make when they say that the two religions are not the same. the simple fact that we have to expect that if anything is said or done that is offensive to muslims that there will be violence shows it is not the same as other religions.

Wickabee
09-13-2012, 11:18 AM
Sure, if you use this definition.
organization: a group of people who work together

Well, I wasn't using definition #1...


1. the act or process of organizing.
2. the state or manner of being organized.

3. something that is organized.

4. organic structure

5. a group of persons organized for some end or work; association:

What did you think I meant by organization?

mrveggieman
09-13-2012, 11:25 AM
first of all, i would not have made the video either. but i don't see how that is relevant. it is your belief that because muslims are prone to violence, it is best if no one in the world ever says or does anything offensive to muslims. do you have the same belief about people doing things offensive to christians? probably not. and the reason is probably because christians have shown that you will not be killed, or innocent people will not be killed, if you draw a cartoon or have a movie about christianity. which is the point many people are trying to make when they say that the two religions are not the same. the simple fact that we have to expect that if anything is said or done that is offensive to muslims that there will be violence shows it is not the same as other religions.


There are extremists in all walks of life. If you make a video or cartoon that is offensive to muslims some loon muslims may come after you. If you make a racially insensitve video or cartoon someone of that race may also come after you. Yes you have a legal right to make such videos but what are you trying to prove my making them? There are better ways to teach people about religions without being a jerk about it. Whoever made this video was clearly not acting in a christ like manner and only intented to spread hatred and division between his fellow man. Jesus would be so proud of them. :rolleyes:

ensbergcollector
09-13-2012, 11:32 AM
There are extremists in all walks of life. If you make a video or cartoon that is offensive to muslims some loon muslims may come after you. If you make a racially insensitve video or cartoon someone of that race may also come after you. Yes you have a legal right to make such videos but what are you trying to prove my making them? There are better ways to teach people about religions without being a jerk about it. Whoever made this video was clearly not acting in a christ like manner and only intented to spread hatred and division between his fellow man. Jesus would be so proud of them. :rolleyes:

the simple fact that people should expect violence if they make a video or cartoon about islam but the same does not hold for any other religion gives plenty of evidence that all religions are not equal.

mrveggieman
09-13-2012, 11:37 AM
the simple fact that people should expect violence if they make a video or cartoon about islam but the same does not hold for any other religion gives plenty of evidence that all religions are not equal.


So what would you like to see done? Outlaw islam and force people to convert to christanity or be killed? Or tell musllims that christians are free to insult any religion besides christanity anytime they like and you must suck it up and deal with it? And don't dare clown christanity or face the most severe penalty possible.

ensbergcollector
09-13-2012, 11:40 AM
So what would you like to see done? Outlaw islam and force people to convert to christanity or be killed? Or tell musllims that christians are free to insult any religion besides christanity anytime they like and you must suck it up and deal with it? And don't dare clown christanity or face the most severe penalty possible.

nope, not sure where you got that from but no.

mrveggieman
09-13-2012, 11:46 AM
So can anyone on here please tell me how many people are going to be saved and go to heaven by watching hateful videos like that?

ensbergcollector
09-13-2012, 11:48 AM
So can anyone on here please tell me how many people are going to be saved and go to heaven by watching hateful videos like that?

no one is defending the video. why are you more hung up on the idea that the video shouldn't have been made instead of the violent and murderous response to the video? when south park mocked jesus did christians kill anyone and did you spend all your time condemning south park?

boba
09-13-2012, 11:50 AM
Well, I wasn't using definition #1...



What did you think I meant by organization?

Figured you meant a business type model where there is a president then committees and such that are higher up, or in this case, closer to God then the normal members.

Sure we have elders, deacons, preachers, teachers and such. But these people are no more important then every other member.

habsheaven
09-13-2012, 11:52 AM
All religions are basically the same. That goes for Islam and Christianity. The differences can be found in how they are practised and viewed as seen in this thread.

Rockman
09-13-2012, 01:20 PM
this i think is a good point. not really sure if it is just an evolution of religion or what. i know it isn't an exact parallel but definitely something worth considering

Thank you. Im glad somebody recognized my point instead of going back and forth with the same babble that occurs in any thread where an Islam vs Christianity comparison is brought up.

Wickabee
09-13-2012, 01:44 PM
You can say that all you want, and I'm sure that is the official position. However, someone is always in charge (and no, it's not Jesus)

angel0430
09-13-2012, 02:37 PM
I have a solution:

There are some weapons that we have that are geting rusted...I believe they are called missiles, others are called WMD...I think this is the right time to use them. There is no way that we are going to br fixing those places.

Rockman
09-13-2012, 03:04 PM
I have a solution:

There are some weapons that we have that are geting rusted...I believe they are called missiles, others are called WMD...I think this is the right time to use them. There is no way that we are going to br fixing those places.

You're better than this. Don't be stupid.

mrveggieman
09-13-2012, 04:35 PM
The idiot who produced this film has been indentified:

http://www.ajc.com/ap/ap/entertainment/california-man-confirms-role-in-anti-islam-film/nR9Tg/

marvelousmarv
09-13-2012, 05:50 PM
http://www.sportscardforum.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by mrveggieman http://www.sportscardforum.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.sportscardforum.com/showthread.php?p=12051273#post12051273)
So can anyone on here please tell me how many people are going to be saved and go to heaven by watching hateful videos like that?
no one is defending the video. why are you more hung up on the idea that the video shouldn't have been made instead of the violent and murderous response to the video? when south park mocked jesus did christians kill anyone and did you spend all your time condemning south park?



exactly my thoughts!

marvelousmarv
09-13-2012, 05:53 PM
if i could applaud that comment this is it:cheer2::cheer2:!!!

INTIMADATOR2007
09-13-2012, 08:17 PM
With 48 hrs. to prepare and with Marines with no ammunition (how does this happen ) , Obama has some explaining to do for his sorry response .48 hrs. to prepare and does NOTHING to help save lives But i'm sure he'll find a way to blame someone else.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/revealed-inside-story-of-us-envoys-assassination-8135797.html

INTIMADATOR2007
09-13-2012, 08:40 PM
http://www.sportscardforum.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by mrveggieman http://www.sportscardforum.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.sportscardforum.com/showthread.php?p=12051273#post12051273)
So can anyone on here please tell me how many people are going to be saved and go to heaven by watching hateful videos like that?
no one is defending the video. why are you more hung up on the idea that the video shouldn't have been made instead of the violent and murderous response to the video? when south park mocked jesus did christians kill anyone and did you spend all your time condemning south park?



exactly my thoughts!
Because his buddies at the liberal websites want to pin this on a stupid video instead of putting it where it belongs on the shoulders of Ol' soon to be unemployed Barack .

Wickabee
09-13-2012, 09:01 PM
With 48 hrs. to prepare and with Marines with no ammunition (how does this happen ) , Obama has some explaining to do for his sorry response .48 hrs. to prepare and does NOTHING to help save lives But i'm sure he'll find a way to blame someone else.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/revealed-inside-story-of-us-envoys-assassination-8135797.html

I have no idea what that link has to do with what you said.

pghin08
09-13-2012, 09:04 PM
Because his buddies at the liberal websites want to pin this on a stupid video instead of putting it where it belongs on the shoulders of Ol' soon to be unemployed Barack .

How confident are you in his future unemployment?

INTIMADATOR2007
09-13-2012, 09:05 PM
How confident are you in his future unemployment?
Ha.Ha There is no way he can win.

INTIMADATOR2007
09-13-2012, 09:07 PM
According to senior diplomatic sources, the US State Department had credible information 48 hours before mobs charged the consulate in Benghazi, and the embassy in Cairo, that American missions may...

Wickabee
09-13-2012, 09:09 PM
I remember something like this happening one September morn a few years back...

pghin08
09-13-2012, 11:41 PM
Ha.Ha There is no way he can win.

What evidence do you have to back up that claim?

JustAlex
09-14-2012, 12:07 AM
so them killing our innocent people isnt a good enough reason...i dont know what is
NO!

Sorry, but we don't live in a world of "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth".

Yes, they killed innocent people, however; we have to be above that.


By the way, this whole video thing is nonsense. That video has been on youtube since July 2. It doesn't take 2 months for internet to travel from the USA to North Africa. This was a coordinated attack on America, and the video is just being used as an excuse.
One of the few times I fully agree with you.

This was planned and it's no coincidence it happened on 9/11.


Are you really trotting out this old atheist argument about the dangers of religion? This has been completely debunked as history has shown that the non-religious have been much more deadly to humans on this planet.
The non-religious have been much more deadly?

Sure, OK.....how exactly do you come to that conclusion?

Oh, and I sincerely hope you don't come in here telling me that Hitler was an atheist and Stalin and all that nonsense.

I don't care what Hitler was, but his men were all catholic, and they were the ones killing 6 million Jews because of the hatred they had.

Stalin's religion was towards the state, he might not have believed in god, but he clearly worshiped dangerous ideologies.

Most atheists are ANTI-war, and ANTI-violence, we want to live in a peaceful world, where religions separate us.

AUTaxMan
09-14-2012, 08:49 AM
NO!

Stalin's religion was towards the state, he might not have believed in god, but he clearly worshiped dangerous ideologies.

Are you saying that statism is akin to religion? If so, I couldn't agree with you more.

mrveggieman
09-14-2012, 09:05 AM
Because his buddies at the liberal websites want to pin this on a stupid video instead of putting it where it belongs on the shoulders of Ol' soon to be unemployed Barack .

If your buddy romney manages to steal the election we will all be unemployed with no health insurance.

AUTaxMan
09-14-2012, 09:52 AM
If your buddy romney manages to steal the election we will all be unemployed with no health insurance.

want to place a wager on that asinine claim?

mrveggieman
09-14-2012, 10:14 AM
want to place a wager on that asinine claim?


Obviously not all of us but I promise you that unemployment will rise and that a lot of people will be without healthcare. Romney will simply turn around and blame Obama.

ensbergcollector
09-14-2012, 10:29 AM
Obviously not all of us but I promise you that unemployment will rise and that a lot of people will be without healthcare. Romney will simply turn around and blame Obama.

ok, there is no way to not find this funny. every bad thing that has happened in the last 4 years obama and his supporters have either blamed bush or the republicans. would romney do the same, i'm sure he would. that would be because that is politics, not because romney is any worse than obama.

mrveggieman
09-14-2012, 10:32 AM
ok, there is no way to not find this funny. every bad thing that has happened in the last 4 years obama and his supporters have either blamed bush or the republicans. would romney do the same, i'm sure he would. that would be because that is politics, not because romney is any worse than obama.


If Romney is supposed to be the much better canidate as you conservatives force yourselves to believe shouldn't he be above blaming Obama and take responsibility for whatever happens under his watch?

ensbergcollector
09-14-2012, 10:39 AM
If Romney is supposed to be the much better canidate as you conservatives force yourselves to believe shouldn't he be above blaming Obama and take responsibility for whatever happens under his watch?

first of all, i don't think he is much better, just a little better. Secondly, why should he be different then every politician to come along since.....nevermind, why should he be different then every politician ever. It is politics to blame anyone but yourself. Doesn't make it right, just makes it comical for obama and his supporters to do it and then talk about romney doing it like it would be this huge offense.

mrveggieman
09-14-2012, 10:48 AM
first of all, i don't think he is much better, just a little better. Secondly, why should he be different then every politician to come along since.....nevermind, why should he be different then every politician ever. It is politics to blame anyone but yourself. Doesn't make it right, just makes it comical for obama and his supporters to do it and then talk about romney doing it like it would be this huge offense.

Again you have made it clear that you and every other conservative dislikes President Obama. Lets move on from that. If per you Romney is the better guy for the job shouldn't YOU hold him to a higher standard instead of just blowing it off and saying politicians will be politicians? If thats the case there is no need for you to vote just stay at home on election day drink beer, play videogames, watch movies and count your cards.

ensbergcollector
09-14-2012, 10:59 AM
Again you have made it clear that you and every other conservative dislikes President Obama. Lets move on from that. If per you Romney is the better guy for the job shouldn't YOU hold him to a higher standard instead of just blowing it off and saying politicians will be politicians? If thats the case there is no need for you to vote just stay at home on election day drink beer, play videogames, watch movies and count your cards.

i'll stay home if you will. you have made it very clear that you don't hold obama to any kind of standard. I accept that all politicians do things. You accept that your politicians do things but then hate on the other side if they do the same. You will never find me blasting obama for something and then defending a republican for the same thing. I either accept both or criticize both. You however have no problem with obama doing it but are already criticizing romney in case he does it.

AUTaxMan
09-14-2012, 11:02 AM
http://af.reuters.com/article/tunisiaNews/idAFL5E8KEHJ920120914

http://live.reuters.com/Event/Middle_East

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/14/witnesses-police-fire-on-protesters-near-u-s-embassy-in-yemen/

It's getting worse.

Wickabee
09-14-2012, 11:14 AM
ok, there is no way to not find this funny. every bad thing that has happened in the last 4 years obama and his supporters have either blamed bush or the republicans. would romney do the same, i'm sure he would. that would be because that is politics, not because romney is any worse than obama.

The funny part is how upset conservatives get when Obama does it but play the "OBAMA DID IT!" card for their own guys, which somehow makes it okay.

Comedy on top of comedy. I love it.

mrveggieman
09-14-2012, 11:17 AM
i'll stay home if you will. you have made it very clear that you don't hold obama to any kind of standard. I accept that all politicians do things. You accept that your politicians do things but then hate on the other side if they do the same. You will never find me blasting obama for something and then defending a republican for the same thing. I either accept both or criticize both. You however have no problem with obama doing it but are already criticizing romney in case he does it.

I will be voting because I belive that President Obama is a better canidate by a longshot and my vote does indeed matter. It seems that you don't really care for romney but are voting for him only because of your hatred for President Obama which is really sad IMO.

ensbergcollector
09-14-2012, 11:37 AM
I will be voting because I belive that President Obama is a better canidate by a longshot and my vote does indeed matter. It seems that you don't really care for romney but are voting for him only because of your hatred for President Obama which is really sad IMO.

dude, i do not hate obama. i know you can't comprehend anyone disapproving of his job as president unless they hate him but that is the case. I have no hatred toward him at all. I think romney will do a better job as president. Am I voting for the lesser of two evils, yes. Does that mean I am only voting for romney because I hate obama, not by a long shot.

mrveggieman
09-14-2012, 11:41 AM
dude, i do not hate obama. i know you can't comprehend anyone disapproving of his job as president unless they hate him but that is the case. I have no hatred toward him at all. I think romney will do a better job as president. Am I voting for the lesser of two evils, yes. Does that mean I am only voting for romney because I hate obama, not by a long shot.

If that's what's makes you conservatives sleep better at night.....

Wickabee
09-14-2012, 12:17 PM
dude, i do not hate obama. i know you can't comprehend anyone disapproving of his job as president unless they hate him but that is the case. I have no hatred toward him at all. I think romney will do a better job as president. Am I voting for the lesser of two evils, yes. Does that mean I am only voting for romney because I hate obama, not by a long shot.

I totally get that. It's how you see things. Personally, I would be voting for Obama because a vote for Obama isn't a veiled vote for Biden, whereas a vote for Romney will put Mitt in the photo-ops and Ryan doing the actual work.

BGT Masters
09-14-2012, 01:12 PM
http://af.reuters.com/article/tunisiaNews/idAFL5E8KEHJ920120914

http://live.reuters.com/Event/Middle_East

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/14/witnesses-police-fire-on-protesters-near-u-s-embassy-in-yemen/

It's getting worse.

Who cares who's voting for who and why. Its not what this thread is about. Nice to see someone actually trying to keep it on topic. After the first attack, I'd have no problem what so ever opening fire on anyone trying to break through the gates of any embassy. I have no issues with peaceful (non violent) demonstrating but if it starts to turn south you have to do whats neccessary to protect the people in these buildings, whether they are US, Britian, German, whatever. I know if I was in my house and a mob came throwing rocks through my windows, trying to set it on fire, and put anyone inside in danger I'd have no problem protecting myself. On a side note it does get old seeing people burning your flag all the time.

mrveggieman
09-14-2012, 01:55 PM
Who cares who's voting for who and why. Its not what this thread is about. Nice to see someone actually trying to keep it on topic. After the first attack, I'd have no problem what so ever opening fire on anyone trying to break through the gates of any embassy. I have no issues with peaceful (non violent) demonstrating but if it starts to turn south you have to do whats neccessary to protect the people in these buildings, whether they are US, Britian, German, whatever. I know if I was in my house and a mob came throwing rocks through my windows, trying to set it on fire, and put anyone inside in danger I'd have no problem protecting myself. On a side note it does get old seeing people burning your flag all the time.

Agreed. :thumb:

pwaldo
09-14-2012, 05:11 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/protesters-attack-u-embassy-cradle-arab-spring-165247459.html

tpeichel
09-14-2012, 09:16 PM
The non-religious have been much more deadly?

Sure, OK.....how exactly do you come to that conclusion?

Oh, and I sincerely hope you don't come in here telling me that Hitler was an atheist and Stalin and all that nonsense.

I don't care what Hitler was, but his men were all catholic, and they were the ones killing 6 million Jews because of the hatred they had.

Stalin's religion was towards the state, he might not have believed in god, but he clearly worshiped dangerous ideologies.

Most atheists are ANTI-war, and ANTI-violence, we want to live in a peaceful world, where religions separate us.

The controlling ideology is what matters, not who is being led. I'm sure there are secularists in Iran who don't agree with what the Mullahs are doing in the name of religion, but I bet you're counting Iran on your side of the ledger.

And I'm sure there were religious who disagreed with what Pol Pot, Stalin, and Mao were doing as well, but what could they do? It was conform or die.

From the book, The Irrational Atheist:

. . . there have been twenty-eight countries in world history that can be confirmed to have been ruled by regimes with avowed atheists at the helm, beginning with the First French Republic and ending with the four atheist regimes currently extant: the People’s Republic of China, the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, the Lao People’s Democratic Republic, and the Socialist Republic of Vietnam. These twenty-eight historical regimes have been ruled by eighty-nine atheists, of whom more than half have engaged in democidal acts of the sort committed by Stalin and Mao and are known to have murdered at least 20,000 of their own citizens.

The total body count for the ninety years between 1917 and 2007 is approximately 148 million dead at the bloody hands of fifty-two atheists, three times more than all the human beings killed by war, civil war, and individual crime in the entire twentieth century combined.

The book is meticulously researched and sourced. Dawkins and other prominent atheists no longer use the argument so you may want to consider doing the same.