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mrveggieman
09-17-2012, 10:08 AM
Yesterday my bishop at my church did a special sermon on homosexuality. He was very detailed. He talked about the history of homosexuality in the bible, the history of homosexuality in america, why homosexuality is immoral and stats on homosexuals in the united states. He also talked about how God intended for man to be with woman not the same gender. He also talked about God's love and how he loves the sinner but hates the sin. He talked about how the Black church often turns a blind eye towards homosexuality. He said that some parents of gay church members even some gays themselves asked him to deliver the message. He told a story about a mother finding out her son was gay then finding out that he has HIV. He talked about how man is the head of the household and in a gay relationship how can their be a head with two people of the same sex. He quoted OT and new testament verses that probibited homosexuality such as leviticus 18:22, Deutoromy 23:17 and Romans 1:24-32. He also told the story in Judges 19:22-30 when homosexuals wanted to rape a male visitor of a prophet house. The prophet said no you cannot rape this man but you may have my wife instead. The crowd then took his wife and raped and killed her. Finally Bishop said do not take his sermon as a message of hate but a message of hope. He said that we are all in this together and are struggling with some form of sin. I really enjoyed this sermon and learned a lot.

Also FTW even though I agree with my bishop that God is displeased with homosexuality I do not think that it should be illegal and still believe that homosexuals are entitled to every legal right that straight people are entitled to. So what are your thoughts.

habsheaven
09-17-2012, 11:07 AM
I assume you are speaking of the history of the homosexual "movement" in the US and not just homosexuality itself.

He spoke of why it is immoral. What did he say? why does he think it is immoral?

I just love bible stories. What a great prophet, to sacrifice his wife to the homosexuals rather than let them rape a stranger and commit sin in doing so. Gotta love stories with a moral in them. Did it ever cross the prophet's mind that maybe he should refuse to let them rape anyone? Sounds like rape isn't a concern as long as it is hetrosexual rape.

Man is the head of the household? You should tell your bishop to join us in the 21st century. A household has parents and children. Parents are the head. One sex does not have an inherent right to be the head. That's archaic.

I'm GLAD I am not learning what you are being taught.

mrveggieman
09-17-2012, 11:37 AM
I assume you are speaking of the history of the homosexual "movement" in the US and not just homosexuality itself.

He spoke of why it is immoral. What did he say? why does he think it is immoral?

I don't know why but both the Bible and the Qu'ran both speak against homosexuality. For whatever unkown reasons it is clear that God despises it. My theory is that God sees it as a waste of time and that one could be creating a family instead of engaging in homosexual relations.

I just love bible stories. What a great prophet, to sacrifice his wife to the homosexuals rather than let them rape a stranger and commit sin in doing so. Gotta love stories with a moral in them. Did it ever cross the prophet's mind that maybe he should refuse to let them rape anyone? Sounds like rape isn't a concern as long as it is hetrosexual rape.

Man is the head of the household? You should tell your bishop to join us in the 21st century. A household has parents and children. Parents are the head. One sex does not have an inherent right to be the head. That's archaic.


It is not just my bishop but the majority of Abrahamic faiths teaches that man is the head of the household. Again that is how God has it set up.

I'm GLAD I am not learning what you are being taught.

Responses in bold.

habsheaven
09-17-2012, 11:45 AM
So when he spoke of WHY it is immoral, what did he actually say? Just that God is against it? He gave no other reasons? <br />
<br />
That is how MEN say God has it set up. How convenient for all the men in...

shrewsbury
09-17-2012, 11:46 AM
Don't hate the player, hate the game!

This is one reason I am against homosexual marriage, is that my view on marriage is making a family, and you need opposite genders to do so in the natural world.

Otherwise I would like to think those homosexuals who helped me finish staining my deck this weekend. Though you may not be married, I still consider you a couple and believe you deserve the same rights as I do, even though they differ from my personal thoughts.

mrveggieman
09-17-2012, 11:52 AM
Since the holy books only say that God is against homosexuality w/o giving a reason why that is all we have to go by. If you or anyone else are truley interested in knowing why God hates...

habsheaven
09-17-2012, 11:53 AM
Don't hate the player, hate the game!

This is one reason I am against homosexual marriage, is that my view on marriage is making a family, and you need opposite genders to do so in the natural world.

Otherwise I would like to think those homosexuals who helped me finish staining my deck this weekend. Though you may not be married, I still consider you a couple and believe you deserve the same rights as I do, even though they differ from my personal thoughts.

So you would be against sterile couples marrying. You would be against my uncle marrying because he took his vows with no intention to ever have children. You would be against my sister-in-law and her husband's marriage because they have never wanted kids. Seems like a very narrow view.

habsheaven
09-17-2012, 11:57 AM
Since the holy books only say that God is against homosexuality w/o giving a reason why that is all we have to go by. If you or anyone else are truley interested in knowing why God hates homosexuality I suggest that you get on your knees and pray to God that he will give you an answer to your questions.

I am only interested in what your bishop had to say about it. I do not believe your God is against it. So therefore, I have no interest in trying to get an answer from Him. Once again, all we have is what MEN say God said.

habsheaven
09-17-2012, 12:02 PM
Since you are both responding to this thread, what is your take on the Judges 19:22-30 story? What kind of a message is the Bible sending in this story. Don't commit a homosexual act, take my wife instead. It's absurd. Yet you find it throughout the Bible. Isn't a better message, stop the homosexuals from raping ANYONE?

mrveggieman
09-17-2012, 12:05 PM
Don't hate the player, hate the game!

This is one reason I am against homosexual marriage, is that my view on marriage is making a family, and you need opposite genders to do so in the natural world.

Otherwise I would like to think those homosexuals who helped me finish staining my deck this weekend. Though you may not be married, I still consider you a couple and believe you deserve the same rights as I do, even though they differ from my personal thoughts.


To answer this thread prohibitions against homosexuality and gay marriage are only because of relgion. Not all of us share the same religion. Since America seperates the church from the state there is absolutely no reason why the state cannot santion a gay marriage. For example I don't believe that God would be happy with ME having a homosexual marriage/relationship that is why I don't participate in such. However my beliefs do not give me the right to tell another adult how to live his/her life as he/she sees fit.

Wickabee
09-17-2012, 12:05 PM
So when he spoke of WHY it is immoral, what did he actually say? Just that God is against it? He gave no other reasons?


When talking religion, that is sort of the definition of immoral...

Star_Cards
09-17-2012, 12:07 PM
Since the holy books only say that God is against homosexuality w/o giving a reason why that is all we have to go by. If you or anyone else are truley interested in knowing why God hates homosexuality I suggest that you get on your knees and pray to God that he will give you an answer to your questions.

This is pretty much why I have absolutely zero religious belief. People follow what they think a religious text says after multiple translations from many years ago as a rule... just because. It makes zero sense to me. It makes me wonder why people can't have an opinion of the topic on their own. I'll never understand this. It's really not an issue with topics that don't involve restricting other people's actions, but in this case it most certainly does.

I'm also appalled by the story in the original post about a prophet allowing homosexuals to rape and kill a man's wife rather than rape him. Like Habs said, maybe not allow any rape to happen. I have no clue what this story is supposed to teach but it's rather disturbing. I don't know if it's supposed to claim that homosexuals are all typically brutal or what, but I really don't follow it from the few lines about it posted here.

mrveggieman
09-17-2012, 12:08 PM
I am only interested in what your bishop had to say about it. I do not believe your God is against it. So therefore, I have no interest in trying to get an answer from Him. Once again, all we have is what MEN say God said.


My bishop dosen't speak from his heart he only relays the word of God. But to answer your question he did not go into any details on why God hates homosexuality. He didn't have to. God said that he is against it and that was all that I needed to know.

Wickabee
09-17-2012, 12:33 PM
I'm also appalled by the story in the original post about a prophet allowing homosexuals to rape and kill a man's wife rather than rape him. Like Habs said, maybe not allow any rape to happen. I have no clue what this story is supposed to teach but it's rather disturbing. I don't know if it's supposed to claim that homosexuals are all typically brutal or what, but I really don't follow it from the few lines about it posted here.

Not saying it is or isn't, but I don't think it's claiming they're brutal, but perhaps that homosexuality is an act of lust rather than love (they obviously didn't care who or what they were raping).

mrveggieman
09-17-2012, 12:40 PM
Since you are both responding to this thread, what is your take on the Judges 19:22-30 story? What kind of a message is the Bible sending in this story. Don't commit a homosexual act, take my wife instead. It's absurd. Yet you find it throughout the Bible. Isn't a better message, stop the homosexuals from raping ANYONE?


Back in biblical times if you had a guest in your home your were legally responsible for their well being. If someone broke in and robbed/raped/killed them then you would be responsible. There was a similiar story in Leviticus with another prophet who offered his two virgin daughters to the crowd instead of raping the male prophets. This time the crowd refused. God was so angred by this he destroyed the entire city. Im sure you heard of this story. It's the story of Sodam and Gomar. God also instructed Lot and his wife not to look back when he was destroying the city. Lot's wife looked back while escaping and was turned into a pillar of salt.

mrveggieman
09-17-2012, 12:48 PM
Not saying it is or isn't, but I don't think it's claiming they're brutal, but perhaps that homosexuality is an act of lust rather than love (they obviously didn't care who or what they were raping).


Homosexuality just like hetrosexual lust and fornication (yes I am guilty of that one) falls under the umbrella of sexual immorality. Don't get it twisted I am the last person who can judge what someone does in the privacy and comfort of their own bedroom. I'm am just explaining how God feels about the issue.

habsheaven
09-17-2012, 12:54 PM
What about the well being of your wife? Should he not be responsible for that too? I guess the moral of the story is this: protect visitors to your home so that you are not charged with a crime,...

shrewsbury
09-17-2012, 01:07 PM
habs, yes, but they have the right to. it is just my view and i know it is not for everyone. I just don't see the need for it if you aren't having kids, but i also don't see the need for a sports car or strip clubs, but each to their own.

mrveggieman
09-17-2012, 01:10 PM
habs, yes, but they have the right to. it is just my view and i know it is not for everyone. I just don't see the need for it if you aren't having kids, but i also don't see the need for a sports car or strip clubs, but each to their own.

So using your same logic there is no purpose for a straight couple to get married if they don't want any kids either. Correct?

habsheaven
09-17-2012, 01:13 PM
So using your same logic there is no purpose for a straight couple to get married if they don't want any kids either. Correct?

That's exactly what he just answered.

Wickabee
09-17-2012, 01:13 PM
So using your same logic there is no purpose for a straight couple to get married if they don't want any kids either. Correct?

Man, are we gonna do this again?

Although, I have to say there is no real reason to get married at all, only imagined ones.

mrveggieman
09-17-2012, 01:19 PM
I say any 2 consenting adults should be able to get married for any reason that makes them tick. If God does not santion their marriage that is up to God to correct them not us. If someone wants or does not want kids should have no barring on weather someone can get married or not. What next put a 5 requirment on having kids then if you don't your marriage is null and void. C'mon now no where in the Bible, Qu'ron, Book of Morman, etc does it compell a straight married couple to have kids.

habsheaven
09-17-2012, 01:31 PM
Man, are we gonna do this again?

Although, I have to say there is no real reason to get married at all, only imagined ones.

There are many REAL reasons to get married. There are tax implications, legal rights, death benefits, etc.

Wickabee
09-17-2012, 01:34 PM
There are many REAL reasons to get married. There are tax implications, legal rights, death benefits, etc.
Fair enough. If you want to get married for citizenship and death benefits, then yes, there's a real reason.

shortking98
09-17-2012, 02:32 PM
I just love bible stories. What a great prophet, to sacrifice his wife to the homosexuals rather than let them rape a stranger and commit sin in doing so. Gotta love stories with a moral in them. Did it ever cross the prophet's mind that maybe he should refuse to let them rape anyone? Sounds like rape isn't a concern as long as it is hetrosexual rape.
Where are you getting that the man in this passage was a prophet? Or that his behavior was acceptable or encouraged by God? I see no such reference and am interested to hear what you are basing that on

mrveggieman
09-17-2012, 02:35 PM
Where are you getting that the man in this passage was a prophet? Or that his behavior was acceptable or encouraged by God? I see no such reference and am interested to hear what you are basing that on

I know that Lot from Sodom and Gahmor is a prophet. I believe that the other guy who was in a similiar story was a prophet as well. I would be glad to research it further if more clarification is needed.

shortking98
09-17-2012, 02:38 PM
I know that Lot from Sodom and Gahmor is a prophet. I believe that the other guy who was in a similiar story was a prophet as well. I would be glad to research it further if more clarification is needed.

Please do as I see no reference in the judges passage to the man being a prophet.

mrveggieman
09-17-2012, 02:53 PM
Please do as I see no reference in the judges passage to the man being a prophet.

I thought that my bishop referred to the guy in this story as a prophet but I could have been mistaken. If someone has more info on the story please chime in.

AUTaxMan
09-17-2012, 02:58 PM
To my knowledge, the Bible does not give a reason for saying thou shalt not steal. Does that make the charge wrong?

habsheaven
09-17-2012, 03:00 PM
Where are you getting that the man in this passage was a prophet? Or that his behavior was acceptable or encouraged by God? I see no such reference and am interested to hear what you are basing that on

I got the "prophet" characterization from Veggie's post. As for God encouraging the actions of this man, I will say this. It is my understanding that the story comes from the Bible. If the telling of the story is to condemn homosexuality, then surely they would have also condemned the rape of the man's wife too. The silence speaks volumes. What kind of "word of God" excludes addressing rape? The only reasonable explanation is that it condones it by remaining silent on it.

mrveggieman
09-17-2012, 03:15 PM
I got the "prophet" characterization from Veggie's post. As for God encouraging the actions of this man, I will say this. It is my understanding that the story comes from the Bible. If the telling of the story is to condemn homosexuality, then surely they would have also condemned the rape of the man's wife too. The silence speaks volumes. What kind of "word of God" excludes addressing rape? The only reasonable explanation is that it condones it by remaining silent on it.


The story is not just condeming homosexuality but other immoral behaviors such as lust, fornincation, coveting, rape and murder.

shrewsbury
09-17-2012, 03:38 PM
wickabee, i agree!

Star_Cards
09-17-2012, 03:51 PM
My bishop dosen't speak from his heart he only relays the word of God. But to answer your question he did not go into any details on why God hates homosexuality. He didn't have to. God said that he is against it and that was all that I needed to know.

This is the scariest thing about religion for me. Blindly thinking or believing based on what someone tells you "God" thinks about a topic. I will never comprehend the blind faith aspect to things like this. Do you never question the relay of message even if there was a writing that 100% came from god hundreds or thousands of years ago?

habsheaven
09-17-2012, 03:53 PM
No. But we all know why stealing is wrong. It harms someone else. We all know why murder is wrong too. I would like to know why something is wrong when there is no apparent reason for it being...

habsheaven
09-17-2012, 03:55 PM
The story is not just condeming homosexuality but other immoral behaviors such as lust, fornincation, coveting, rape and murder.

The story YOU paraphrased had no condemnation of the rape. It was presented as a better option than allowing the man to be raped.

mrveggieman
09-17-2012, 03:59 PM
This is the scariest thing about religion for me. Blindly thinking or believing based on what someone tells you "God" thinks about a topic. I will never comprehend the blind faith aspect to things like this. Do you never question the relay of message even if there was a writing that 100% came from god hundreds or thousands of years ago?


Both the Bible and the Qu'ran both state that homosexuality is wrong. My theory is that God feels that it is a waste of time and you could be spending could be spending that time with a woman trying to make a family as well as being a man and leading your household. Again I am not making up the rules I am just reporting them. Yes the Bible was written thousands of years ago but most of what is in it is still applicable today.

shrewsbury
09-17-2012, 04:05 PM
veggie, you are not kidding.

I believe the ideas Jesus teaches us are about morals, and if everyone had these morals we would be much better off. the stealing and killing are the easy ones, but look around you, people are coveting like never before and it a making a bigger mess than ever before.

Star_Cards
09-17-2012, 04:07 PM
habs, yes, but they have the right to. it is just my view and i know it is not for everyone. I just don't see the need for it if you aren't having kids, but i also don't see the need for a sports car or strip clubs, but each to their own.

marriage, in the eyes of the state, has nothing to do with procreation.

shrewsbury
09-17-2012, 04:24 PM
i never said it did. it seems quite often that when people read my posts they are so upset by the beginning they don't read the rest.
as i stated it was my view. my view is what is right by me, not the law and not for others, just mine.

Star_Cards
09-17-2012, 04:25 PM
the bible isn't what makes it illegal to steal. It's illegal to steal because it violate another person or entity by the theft. It is illegal in christianity's eyes but that is not why it's illegal...

Star_Cards
09-17-2012, 04:29 PM
Both the Bible and the Qu'ran both state that homosexuality is wrong. My theory is that God feels that it is a waste of time and you could be spending could be spending that time with a woman trying to make a family as well as being a man and leading your household. Again I am not making up the rules I am just reporting them. Yes the Bible was written thousands of years ago but most of what is in it is still applicable today.

I get the theory. I just don't get blindly agreeing with something because a person or a church said that a god said it was so. For me I look much further into things before forming my opinions. If people just blindly believe something because it was said that god said it then there are a lot of mindless people out there. People don't act that way when dealing with most everyday situations or other people. Why would they be willing to do it when being told about religious rules. Never got that and never will.

mrveggieman
09-17-2012, 04:31 PM
i never said it did. it seems quite often that when people read my posts they are so upset by the beginning they don't read the rest.
as i stated it was my view. my view is what is right by me, not the law and not for others, just mine.

I feel you on that. Just like homosexuality is not right for me either. That being said if it is not right for me I wont do it but I cannot and will not stand in the way of someone doing what is right for them. Neither should you. Yes we both agree that God hates homosexuality but not the homosexual. Let's let God handle his business and judge the homosexual accordingly. There is no need for anyone on here to help God to do his job. He does not need any of our help in the least.

mrveggieman
09-17-2012, 04:35 PM
I get the theory. I just don't get blindly agreeing with something because a person or a church said that a god said it was so. For me I look much further into things before forming my opinions. If people just blindly believe something because it was said that god said it then there are a lot of mindless people out there. People don't act that way when dealing with most everyday situations or other people. Why would they be willing to do it when being told about religious rules. Never got that and never will.


I have a moderate view on homosexuality. Yes I don't think it is right by God but I will never stand in the way of homosexuals having the same full and equal rights that everyone else has. Since God has the problem with homosexuality I will leave it to him to judge the homosexuals. The only thing I will do is offer them my prayers.

shrewsbury
09-17-2012, 05:46 PM
veggie, where did i say i would do anything about it or judge those that practice it? as i stated our best friends were over this weekend and helped us finish staining our deck, i owe them more than the lasagna dinner they got (eggplant with home made noodles). but they know i would do the same for them and have. they have been a couple for 12-15 years now, i respect them as a couple and if they desired to get married, i would be at the wedding(and get stuck with helping).

but i see no need to get married if i wasn't going to have children, so i am not for gay marriage, but not against it. in fact the only thing i have ever heard either one of them say about marriage was when the chick fil a thing was going on, i knew it was jamie's favorite fast food place so i asked her what she would do, she said she wasn't inviting him to her wedding anyways, so who cares? (or something like that).

i do feel if gay marriage is legal then you have to allow polygamy, no other way about it. how could someone be for gay marriage and not polygamy? i am for neither, but if one is ok then so is the other.

Wickabee
09-17-2012, 05:57 PM
Shrew, when it comes out on a ballot, how do you vote?
Yes, make gay marriage legal
No, keep/make marriage between a man and woman

shrewsbury
09-17-2012, 06:16 PM
wickabee, fair question.

this has always been hard on me. i consider myself decently moral and try to stay within my own ideas about what is moral. it is me that has to walk that line, not others. it is hard enough keeping tabs on myself, much less others. when the kids still lived here, i had some hard times dealing with things (3 girls) but i some what managed.

i made a decision long ago that i would never vote based soley on my own morals. laws are for people so i should vote what i feel is right for all people, not just for me. you can be drafted at 18, buy cigarettes, rolling papers, and get married but not drink a beer?woman can't be drafted but scream for equality. and gays want to jump in something that only half of us that do can make it.

but back to your question, Yes for gay marriage. (but i still think polygamy should be included and how is the taxes going to work for that?)

I also do not think Jesus would have an issue with me voting in favor of gay marriage.

Wickabee
09-17-2012, 06:36 PM
wickabee, fair question.

this has always been hard on me. i consider myself decently moral and try to stay within my own ideas about what is moral. it is me that has to walk that line, not others. it is hard enough keeping tabs on myself, much less others. when the kids still lived here, i had some hard times dealing with things (3 girls) but i some what managed.

i made a decision long ago that i would never vote based soley on my own morals. laws are for people so i should vote what i feel is right for all people, not just for me. you can be drafted at 18, buy cigarettes, rolling papers, and get married but not drink a beer?woman can't be drafted but scream for equality. and gays want to jump in something that only half of us that do can make it.

but back to your question, Yes for gay marriage. (but i still think polygamy should be included and how is the taxes going to work for that?)

I also do not think Jesus would have an issue with me voting in favor of gay marriage.

Fair answer, and I will admit, from a Christian viewpoint it's complicated. On one hand you want all your actions to reflect your beliefs, and this would include voting. One the other hand, Christ was "no part of this world" and his teachings should neither be, so is voting to ban gay marriage actually going against his teaching?
Then there's the fact that God hates the act, not the people doing it. Jesus never saw a reason to treat anyone as a lesser person, no matter their sins. Denying them the same rights as everyone else is not following that.

Then there's the all too human aspect of slippery slope. I agree with you about polygamy, but many wouldn't. Personally, I think we already have laws against the abuse that tends to go along with polygamy, so why is the polygamy, which in and of itself does no real harm, also illegal? I have the same view on drugs. As far as how taxes would work, take away benefit of marriage, or come up with an outside set of laws for polygamy. Again, I agree it's complicated, but it can be done. I do believe eventually we will have people arguing in court for the right to marry a dog or puppet, but I also have faith that we'll be moving the line, not erasing it.

As for would Jesus have a problem with it, I agree that he wouldn't. God's law is to be no part of the world, therefor Jesus, God and all the angels couldn't care less what the laws of America, Canada, Saudi Arabia, Japan or any other country are.

theonedru
09-17-2012, 09:56 PM
The God of Christians and Muslims do not hate homosexuals, the people that wrote those chapters in the despise it as such those that follow it also do so of their own free will. One should not go laying the blame of hate on a God because of ignorant close minded followers.

shrewsbury
09-17-2012, 10:44 PM
dru, good post!