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ALADOG
09-22-2012, 12:12 AM
All the atheists and agnostics want to believe the founding fathers were very smart men to produce the greatest nation in history. Then go so far as to cherry pick quotes and opinons to make the point that the US is not a Christian nation. You respect the founding father's intelligence and if the left wingers are like me, freely admit 99% of the founding fathers were smarter than me or you. With that preface you completely ignore they were all Christian (please don't start with the Jefferson stuff) . In other words, you believe and give them credit they were very smart to start his country, but they are imbeciles when they believe in God.

Wickabee
09-22-2012, 12:15 AM
Christian "Founding Fathers" does not a "Christian Nation" make.

ALADOG
09-22-2012, 12:22 AM
Christian "Founding Fathers" does not a "Christian Nation" make.

My point, probably not made well, was that the founding fathers are given credit about starting this country and we all believe they were showed great intelligence to do it. Then when it is pointed out they were Christian, athiests and agnositcs don't trust the foundiing father's iintelligence. How could there be such intelligence about founding the country and such ignorance about religion?

Wickabee
09-22-2012, 12:36 AM
My point, probably not made well, was that the founding fathers are given credit about starting this country and we all believe they were showed great intelligence to do it. Then when it is pointed out they were Christian, athiests and agnositcs don't trust the foundiing father's iintelligence. How could there be such intelligence about founding the country and such ignorance about religion?

So you're saying that, logically speaking, atheists who think the founding fathers are smart should believe in God because they did? Just clarifying.
If so I would have to say that's a really bad reason to alter a belief or disbelief. If you found out most of them truly believed in horoscopes would you suddenly believe it too?

habsheaven
09-22-2012, 01:21 AM
One's level of intelligence has nothing to do with whether or not someone believes in a diety. All those intelligent men were little, impressionable boys when they were introduced to the concept of a god. It's kinda like the ability of an elephant trainer to tie up his elephant with a stake in the ground. He can do it because when he first used the technique he did so on the elephant when it was an infant and did not have the strength to break free. Now that the elephant is full grown it still believes it cannot break away.

ALADOG
09-22-2012, 01:22 AM
I just find it strange that many of the smartest men in history had a Christian belief and we give them credit fir being smart but atheists and agnostics do not give them any credit about their religion. I have deferred to people smarter than me on many issues. I don't say it is right or wrong, just peculiar that their religious beliefs are ignored. In all honesty you fit the mold perfectly. Rather than answer the question, you try to defer with another totally unrelated question. I understand that is the way of left wingers ,do not answer, but deflect.

ALADOG
09-22-2012, 01:25 AM
BUt they grew up to become some of the smartest men in history. If religon is such a farce, they should have been able to see through it.

habsheaven
09-22-2012, 08:02 AM
BUt they grew up to become some of the smartest men in history. If religion is such a farce, they should have been able to see through it.

And many of the EVEN SMARTER men in history do not believe in religion. Just like today, I am sure back then in order to be a successful politician you HAD to believe in God. If you did not, you would never get elected. Even the smartest mind can trick itself into believing something for no apparent reason. Most of these smart men who use extraordinary logic in all other pursuits of life, throw logic out the window when it comes to religious beliefs. Why, because they have to.

Wickabee
09-22-2012, 01:10 PM
I just find it strange that many of the smartest men in history had a Christian belief and we give them credit fir being smart but atheists and agnostics do not give them any credit about their religion. I have deferred to people smarter than me on many issues. I don't say it is right or wrong, just peculiar that their religious beliefs are ignored. In all honesty you fit the mold perfectly. Rather than answer the question, you try to defer with another totally unrelated question. I understand that is the way of left wingers ,do not answer, but deflect.
Some of the stupidest men in history were Christian too.

duwal
09-22-2012, 06:09 PM
I just find it strange that many of the smartest men in history had a Christian belief and we give them credit fir being smart but atheists and agnostics do not give them any credit about their religion. I have deferred to people smarter than me on many issues. I don't say it is right or wrong, just peculiar that their religious beliefs are ignored. In all honesty you fit the mold perfectly. Rather than answer the question, you try to defer with another totally unrelated question. I understand that is the way of left wingers ,do not answer, but deflect.

no one should have a reason to answer the question because there is no basis in saying that what religion someone believes in or follows coincides with how intelligent they might be. There can be athiests with some of the highest IQ's around, there can be strong Christians who failed and dropped out of high school

JustAlex
09-22-2012, 06:16 PM
All the atheists and agnostics want to believe the founding fathers were very smart men to produce the greatest nation in history.

I'm an atheist, and trust me, I don't believe this is the "greatest" nation in history. When the U.S was just starting it had millions of slaves and suppressed everyone that wasn't a white christian male. Nothing great about that.

Then go so far as to cherry pick quotes and opinons to make the point that the US is not a Christian nation.

Err....isn't that what you guys do?

You respect the founding father's intelligence and if the left wingers are like me, freely admit 99% of the founding fathers were smarter than me or you.

Who cares how smart they were....they were right about some things and wrong on others such as slavery. Newton was a pretty smart man, he also believed in alchemy...

With that preface you completely ignore they were all Christian (please don't start with the Jefferson stuff) . In other words, you believe and give them credit they were very smart to start his country, but they are imbeciles when they believe in God.

Who cares what their religion was, they had in mind a purely secular nation. Which is the reason why God is NEVER mentioned in the constitution, which is the reason why the 1st amendment allows every citizen in the U.S to disobey 8 out of the 10 commandments, which is the reason why they said that no religious test would be needed for qualification to ANY U.S office!


Just because most of the citizens in the U.S are Christian does NOT mean this is a christian country.....just like how the majority are white, but that doesn't mean we are a "White Country".

Most of the U.S population are females....does that mean we are a "Female country"???

Sorry, but this is a secular nation.....end of story.

ALADOG
09-22-2012, 07:37 PM
And many of the EVEN SMARTER men in history do not believe in religion. Just like today, I am sure back then in order to be a successful politician you HAD to believe in God. If you did not, you would never get elected. Even the smartest mind can trick itself into believing something for no apparent reason. Most of these smart men who use extraordinary logic in all other pursuits of life, throw logic out the window when it comes to religious beliefs. Why, because they have to.

Don't you just hate it when that happens. You are going along thinking you are making such a good point and then BAM! there it is. You have made your opponents point better than he could.

Your words " I am sure back then in order to be a successful politician you HAD to believe in God." What better way to illustrate this country was founded as a Christian nation. Not that we were intended to be a theocracy or oligarchy of Christians but definately a Christian nation.

Wickabee
09-22-2012, 07:42 PM
Don't you just hate it when that happens. You are going along thinking you are making such a good point and then BAM! there it is. You have made your opponents point better than he could.

Your words " I am sure back then in order to be a successful politician you HAD to believe in God." What better way to illustrate this country was founded as a Christian nation. Not that we were intended to be a theocracy or oligarchy of Christians but definately a Christian nation.

Well:
1 - No offense to him, but I wouldn't use Habs as an infallible resource on the subject.
2 - He said believe "in God" not "the Christian God" so he didn't actually say what you're trying to make it look like he said.
3 - Even if it was a necessary to believe in Chirstian God back then, it still doesn't speak to what their actual plans and hopes for America were, just that they were all Christian. If America was a Christian nation, adultery would be a jailable offense. No way around it.

ALADOG
09-22-2012, 07:45 PM
Just because most of the citizens in the U.S are Christian does NOT mean this is a christian country.....just like how the majority are white, but that doesn't mean we are a "White Country".

Most of the U.S population are females....does that mean we are a "Female country"???

Sorry, but this is a secular nation.....end of story.

Your arrogance is unsurpassed by anyone I have ever come in contact with.

The gross intrusions into our freedoms by liberals has only come about in the last 60 years. You are too young to remember our country before the destruction began with the liberal policies put in place. As I said in another thread, The encroachemnts into our freedoms and rights by one generation are the entitlements of the following generations. You are part of the entitlement generation.

JustAlex
09-22-2012, 08:10 PM
Your arrogance is unsurpassed by anyone I have ever come in contact with.

The gross intrusions into our freedoms by liberals has only come about in the last 60 years. You are too young to remember our country before the destruction began with the liberal policies put in place. As I said in another thread, The encroachemnts into our freedoms and rights by one generation are the entitlements of the following generations. You are part of the entitlement generation.
"My Arrogance"?

I'm not the one making a case that this is a christian nation, when it clearly isn't.

Why can't you and others like you understand that being secular isn't being "Leftist" or "liberal" or "socialist" or any other buzz words that you guys love using.

It's a simple NEUTRALITY of religion, it's a good thing.

I bet you wouldn't like it if we were a "Masonic Country".

BTW, did you know that many of the founders were Masons?

Did you know that there are masonic symbols all over D.C and in our money?


Well, there you go, using your own logic, I just proved the United States is a "Masonic Country".

Wickabee
09-22-2012, 08:26 PM
why can't you and others like you understand that being secular isn't being "leftist" or "liberal" or "socialist" or any other buzz words that you guys love using.


church!!!

ALADOG
09-22-2012, 11:23 PM
"My Arrogance"?

I'm not the one making a case that this is a christian nation, when it clearly isn't.

Why can't you and others like you understand that being secular isn't being "Leftist" or "liberal" or "socialist" or any other buzz words that you guys love using.

It's a simple NEUTRALITY of religion, it's a good thing.

I bet you wouldn't like it if we were a "Masonic Country".

BTW, did you know that many of the founders were Masons?

Did you know that there are masonic symbols all over D.C and in our money?


Well, there you go, using your own logic, I just proved the United States is a "Masonic Country".

Yes your Extreme arrogance. It seems to come from your immaturity and insecurity. You are extremely dogmatic and do not listen to anyone else's opinion. Your demeanor suggests a middle teenager. You do not use any logic. I will no longer involve myself in conversation with you.

habsheaven
09-22-2012, 11:52 PM
Don't you just hate it when that happens. You are going along thinking you are making such a good point and then BAM! there it is. You have made your opponents point better than he could.

Your words " I am sure back then in order to be a successful politician you HAD to believe in God." What better way to illustrate this country was founded as a Christian nation. Not that we were intended to be a theocracy or oligarchy of Christians but definately a Christian nation.

That has nothing to do with it being a christian nation. It has everything to do with not alienating voters. You also had to be a supporter of slavery, and a male chauvinistic pig to be a successful politician. The documents speak for themselves. Bam!!!

*censored*
09-23-2012, 03:14 AM
Yes your Extreme arrogance. It seems to come from your immaturity and insecurity. You are extremely dogmatic and do not listen to anyone else's opinion. Your demeanor suggests a middle teenager. You do not use any logic. I will no longer involve myself in conversation with you.

"Hi, Pot? Kettle calling. I've been meaning to tell you something..."

mrveggieman
09-24-2012, 09:51 AM
All the atheists and agnostics want to believe the founding fathers were very smart men to produce the greatest nation in history. Then go so far as to cherry pick quotes and opinons to make the point that the US is not a Christian nation. You respect the founding father's intelligence and if the left wingers are like me, freely admit 99% of the founding fathers were smarter than me or you. With that preface you completely ignore they were all Christian (please don't start with the Jefferson stuff) . In other words, you believe and give them credit they were very smart to start his country, but they are imbeciles when they believe in God.


If the founding fathers intended this country to be an exclusive whites only christian only country club why wasn't it written in the constitution? Why wasn't this country turned into a religious dictatorship just like in the middle east. You conservatives are a mess. On one hand you scream that you want to go to war so that people in the middle east can have "freedom" however in your world you would like nothing more than to surpress religious freedom in your own country.

JustAlex
09-24-2012, 07:14 PM
Yes your Extreme arrogance. It seems to come from your immaturity and insecurity. You are extremely dogmatic and do not listen to anyone else's opinion. Your demeanor suggests a middle teenager. You do not use any logic. I will no longer involve myself in conversation with you.
Are you trying to parody yourself in this comment?

If not, this is very ironic.

mrveggieman
09-25-2012, 09:07 AM
Are you trying to parody yourself in this comment?

If not, this is very ironic.


Quote of the day. Double church.

CHURCH!!! :love0030::love0030::love0030:
CHURCH!!! :love0030::love0030::love0030:

duwal
09-25-2012, 05:14 PM
Quote of the day. Double church.

CHURCH!!! :love0030::love0030::love0030:
CHURCH!!! :love0030::love0030::love0030:


wow, is that the first dual church that has been given out??

mrveggieman
09-25-2012, 05:25 PM
wow, is that the first dual church that has been given out??

It happens from time to time but not that often. You have to have an extraordinary post in order to be considered for double church.

Star_Cards
09-25-2012, 05:34 PM
All the atheists and agnostics want to believe the founding fathers were very smart men to produce the greatest nation in history. Then go so far as to cherry pick quotes and opinons to make the point that the US is not a Christian nation. You respect the founding father's intelligence and if the left wingers are like me, freely admit 99% of the founding fathers were smarter than me or you. With that preface you completely ignore they were all Christian (please don't start with the Jefferson stuff) . In other words, you believe and give them credit they were very smart to start his country, but they are imbeciles when they believe in God.

I'd always hesitate when using the word all when describing a specific group unless. That said, as an atheist I don't know if I've ever sat down and said that I believed they founding fathers were smarter than me or you. I'd say that it's fair to say they were typically very well educated from what I have heard about them.

As for your point about very smart people being religious... that's pretty typical. I don't know the exact numbers but world wide, most people are religious and a lot of the world's smartest people would be too. I personally don't believe in any religion but do see why people do. I also don't think it makes them stupid or deserving of less respect from me. I respect many people who have different religious beliefs than me and really think of them as separate things for the most part. That is saying that these religious people that I respect don't try to rule by their religion or try to force people to believe what they believe. For me that's the bottom line.

Star_Cards
09-25-2012, 05:37 PM
I just find it strange that many of the smartest men in history had a Christian belief and we give them credit fir being smart but atheists and agnostics do not give them any credit about their religion. I have deferred to people smarter than me on many issues. I don't say it is right or wrong, just peculiar that their religious beliefs are ignored. In all honesty you fit the mold perfectly. Rather than answer the question, you try to defer with another totally unrelated question. I understand that is the way of left wingers ,do not answer, but deflect.

saying left winger deflect and no one else does is completely false. lots of people deflect. I'm an atheist and typically left leaning and I answered your question. I have lots of respect for many people who are religious.

Star_Cards
09-25-2012, 05:40 PM
And many of the EVEN SMARTER men in history do not believe in religion. Just like today, I am sure back then in order to be a successful politician you HAD to believe in God. If you did not, you would never get elected. Even the smartest mind can trick itself into believing something for no apparent reason. Most of these smart men who use extraordinary logic in all other pursuits of life, throw logic out the window when it comes to religious beliefs. Why, because they have to.

Thats a great point. I assume that most high level politicians, at any point in history, would have issue being elected if they were atheist. Great point that some may not have been totally upfront about their belief of god. Also, do we know for certain they all did? I know a lot of people like to say they are, but I'd have to look into if further to know they were all christian. PLus I bet even if they are all christian certainly they had varying views on different topics even within their shared christianity.

shrewsbury
09-26-2012, 09:53 AM
so religion is not logical?

and science having multiple hypothesis on human evolution is logical? they all can't be right, but yet because they all agree on human evolution is somehow makes them all plausible?
some believe in a parallel universe, and some believe in multiple parallel universe's, yet this is logical compared to religion?


Discoveries in astronomy and physics have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that our universe did in fact have a beginning. Prior to that moment there was nothing; during and after that moment there was something: our universe.

so the logic that all came from nothing is ok, but that we all came from one is not?

or even after everything came from nothing that life, as we know it, started again from some unknown source, the basis is usually lightning striking mud, that literally sparked life.

you ask where God came from, I ask where the nothing came from.

and lets go back to the mind, when you want something to fit in with your beliefs you will make it fit, this is also science.

Lucy? 22% complete, most of the skull is missing, no upper jaw, no hands or feet, yet is made into an ape woman and has been accepted as the pinnacle of evolutionary proof. and wth the printing of one book skewed the facts from the real 22.8% to 40%.
how about this quote?

Dr Marvin Lubenow quotes the evolutionists Matt Cartmill (Duke University), David Pilbeam (Harvard University) and the late Glynn Isaac (Harvard University): ‘The australopithecines are rapidly sinking back to the status of peculiarly specialized apes …

KMN- ER 1470 a link to human evolution?cat scans of the inner ear show otherwise

habsheaven
09-26-2012, 11:06 AM
Jay, are you implying that religion IS logical? The mere fact that you are able to critique evidence of evolution indicates that there is something behind the theory beyond conjecture. How does one critique the evidence supporting genesis? There is nothing to analyize.

shrewsbury
09-26-2012, 11:44 AM
but you are going from the writing of one human being that has been copied and transcribed thousands if not millions of times. What did Jesus say about Creation? He is the only source I care about, (though i will listen to others) and He doesn't say much on it.

I love science but to claim it is all logical, is well, illogical.

My critique is saved for those theorizing on the teachings of Jesus, and I can critique that all day.

Rockman
09-26-2012, 02:08 PM
You respect the founding father's intelligence and if the left wingers are like me, freely admit 99% of the founding fathers were smarter than me or you. With that preface you completely ignore they were all Christian (please don't start with the Jefferson stuff) . In other words, you believe and give them credit they were very smart to start his country, but they are imbeciles when they believe in God.

I'll go ahead and say it. I'm in the 1%, I think I'm smarter than the founding fathers were. It's not coming from a place of arrogance, our world is a lot more complicated than it was then, and in the 21st century we have a much better understanding of science the world/universe/yada yada yada. If you think about it for two seconds and take the founding fathers off the pedestal that you are putting them on, you would realize it too. They by no means could have predicted the world we live in now, and would have a very hard time understanding it.

I'm by no means questioning how smart they were during the period they lived in, but I fail to admit they had more knowledge than I do now.

shrewsbury
09-26-2012, 02:39 PM
Rockman, I somehow agree with you.

but

this has nothing to do with them being christians or not

Wickabee
09-26-2012, 02:41 PM
Rockman, I somehow agree with you.

but

this has nothing to do with them being christians or not

The thread started off saying:
Founding fathers = Christian
Founding fathers = Smart
Christian = Smart

So they've been tied together for the purposes of this thread.

mrveggieman
09-26-2012, 02:43 PM
I don't care what religion you are. You can still be an idiot. GWB and Sara Palin are perfect examples of people who claim to be religious but are complete idiots. Also I don't believe that most of the founding fathers are the same type of christians like the fanatical ones are today.

Wickabee
09-26-2012, 02:44 PM
I don't care what religion you are. You can still be an idiot. GWB and Sara Palin are perfect examples of people who claim to be religious but are complete idiots. Also I don't believe that most of the founding fathers are the same type of christians like the fanaticalfinancial ones are today.

Fixed

Rockman
09-26-2012, 02:45 PM
Rockman, I somehow agree with you.

but

this has nothing to do with them being christians or not


The thread started off saying:
Founding fathers = Christian
Founding fathers = Smart
Christian = Smart

So they've been tied together for the purposes of this thread.

^^^^^ Sums it up.

mrveggieman
09-26-2012, 02:47 PM
Fixed

Thanks, you hit that one right on the head. :thumb:

shrewsbury
09-26-2012, 11:09 PM
you having more knowledge than them now, does not have anything to do with them being christian.

Wickabee
09-27-2012, 12:47 PM
you having more knowledge than them now, does not have anything to do with them being christian.
Shrew, you're better than that.

pghin08
09-27-2012, 12:53 PM
I think you guys are asking the wrong questions.

1. Were the founding fathers Christian? Sure, many of them were. I don't think that's really even debatable. There were quite a few that were deists, some were "other", but a good number of them considered themselves to be Christian.

2. Is the United States a Christian nation? No. It doesn't matter that many of the founders of the country were Christian. Here is the oft-quoted text from the Treaty of Tripoli (1797):

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html


That's really about as cut and dry as it gets. This is NOT to discredit Christian influence on those who founded our nation, because I'm sure there is a lot of it. Just like there was plenty of Deist influence (funny how NO ONE talks about that). But this is a direct text saying that the US is not a Christian nation, which really just re-enforces the 1st amendment which says that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

So when someone like Sarah Palin says that the US is a Christian nation, she's right, but very wrong at the same time. We were founded by people of mixed religions, including Christianity, all of which played a role in our development. But when those same founders say that the US won't establish a national religion, and that we are not founded on Christianity, then I'm inclined to believe them.

mrveggieman
09-27-2012, 01:06 PM
I think you guys are asking the wrong questions.

1. Were the founding fathers Christian? Sure, many of them were. I don't think that's really even debatable. There were quite a few that were deists, some were "other", but a good number of them considered themselves to be Christian.

2. Is the United States a Christian nation? No. It doesn't matter that many of the founders of the country were Christian. Here is the oft-quoted text from the Treaty of Tripoli (1797):

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html


That's really about as cut and dry as it gets. This is NOT to discredit Christian influence on those who founded our nation, because I'm sure there is a lot of it. Just like there was plenty of Deist influence (funny how NO ONE talks about that). But this is a direct text saying that the US is not a Christian nation, which really just re-enforces the 1st amendment which says that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

So when someone like Sarah Palin says that the US is a Christian nation, she's right, but very wrong at the same time. We were founded by people of mixed religions, including Christianity, all of which played a role in our development. But when those same founders say that the US won't establish a national religion, and that we are not founded on Christianity, then I'm inclined to believe them.


Excellent post. This country was founded as a break away from England so that we may have religious freedom. If the founding fathers wanted this country to be a christian theoracy they simply would have written it in the constitution and not have included freedom of religion in the first amendment. Well written post. I'm going to give you some for it. CHURCH!!! :love0030::love0030::love0030:

Rockman
09-27-2012, 02:05 PM
Could be wrong but I think it was the Treaty of Tripoli point made in another thread that was the cause of this thread.

*censored*
09-27-2012, 03:23 PM
The thread started off saying:
Founding fathers = Christian
Founding fathers = Smart
Christian = Smart

So they've been tied together for the purposes of this thread.

So this whole thread is based on a logical fallacy.

The Empire State Building cannot drive a tractor.
A carrot cannot drive a tractor.
Therefore the Empire State Building is a carrot.

Same logic. Massively false.

Wickabee
09-27-2012, 04:16 PM
So this whole thread is based on a logical fallacy.

The Empire State Building cannot drive a tractor.
A carrot cannot drive a tractor.
Therefore the Empire State Building is a carrot.

Same logic. Massively false.

No argument here. Just reminding someone why "smart" plays into "Christian" for the purposes of this flawed thread.