Obama's Kingdom of Fairness

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by duane1969

Asking them to pay taxes is not whining. Complaining that the wealthy don't pay enough and should pay more to help ensure the continuation of entitlement programs is.

---

They don't pay enough. Their base tax rate could use a small hike, but their base rate isn't what they pay. I liked Romney's idea of closing loopholes, I just wish he had said which ones, when and how. Because he didn't, I had to believe it was lip service and, since he's always benefitted from those loopholes and always will, I have to believe he was going to do very little.

Charitable donations should be a deduction. Business investment should be a small deduction, say 10% of the investment. Medical costs not covered by health care should be a small deduction.

That's it.

Private citizens living in the US should not be allowed to hide money in Switzerland or the Caymans or anywhere else. Goods manufactured by American companies for American consumption should be made in America, not China or India or wherever.

wick, their effective rate is still higher than the average effective rate by a substantial margin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AUTaxMan

wick, their effective rate is still higher than the average effective rate by a substantial margin.

---

Then actually close actual loopholes and actually end actual deductions. I'm not saying their not supposed to pay enough, I'm saying the reality is, they don't. How many times and in how many different ways do I need to say this?

The fact of the matter is your country is designed to go in cycles. For the middle class this means sometimes things are good and sometimes they're bad. For the wealthy sometimes things are good and sometimes they're great. The good times are good for everyone but the great times come when everyone else hits the bad times. Labour is cheaper and they can blame entitlements for the poor for taking all the money when, in reality, the rich are using their loopholes and deductions to make sure the money isn't there in the first place. Then entitlements get cut and suddenly the government can afford even more deductions in the name of business investment. Of course, a lax policy regarding business regulation makes business more lucrative, so let's deregulate business. Great! Now their are jobs, but they're paying the same wages and have the same conditions as China now has. But don't worry, you got yours, they can get lost. When they resort to crime, use your money to make laws harsher and arrest them all. Then the rich can use prison labour to cut costs even more! Once all the poor are tucked away in cages doing all the work for free, everyone left can move to the beach and not be annoyed.

Think it can't happen? You're right. Because that's the Republican/Conservative dream and there are a lot of liberals who have votes. Without those liberals, it could easily happen, just as easily as your worst nightmares could come true if there were no conservatives.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wickabee

They don't pay enough. Their base tax rate could use a small hike, but their base rate isn't what they pay. I liked Romney's idea of closing loopholes, I just wish he had said which ones, when and how. Because he didn't, I had to believe it was lip service and, since he's always benefitted from those loopholes and always will, I have to believe he was going to do very little.

Charitable donations should be a deduction. Business investment should be a small deduction, say 10% of the investment. Medical costs not covered by health care should be a small deduction.

That's it.

Private citizens living in the US should not be allowed to hide money in Switzerland or the Caymans or anywhere else. Goods manufactured by American companies for American consumption should be made in America, not China or India or wherever.

---

but those like myself that are in the 7 figures and up are already paying at a higher tax rate than just about every family making less than 6 figures each year

Sigh.Anything else that AUT already said?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wickabee

Then actually close actual loopholes and actually end actual deductions. I'm not saying their not supposed to pay enough, I'm saying the reality is, they don't. How many times and in how many different ways do I need to say this?

The fact of the matter is your country is designed to go in cycles. For the middle class this means sometimes things are good and sometimes they're bad. For the wealthy sometimes things are good and sometimes they're great. The good times are good for everyone but the great times come when everyone else hits the bad times. Labour is cheaper and they can blame entitlements for the poor for taking all the money when, in reality, the rich are using their loopholes and deductions to make sure the money isn't there in the first place. Then entitlements get cut and suddenly the government can afford even more deductions in the name of business investment. Of course, a lax policy regarding business regulation makes business more lucrative, so let's deregulate business. Great! Now their are jobs, but they're paying the same wages and have the same conditions as China now has. But don't worry, you got yours, they can get lost. When they resort to crime, use your money to make laws harsher and arrest them all. Then the rich can use prison labour to cut costs even more! Once all the poor are tucked away in cages doing all the work for free, everyone left can move to the beach and not be annoyed.

Think it can't happen? You're right. Because that's the Republican/Conservative dream and there are a lot of liberals who have votes. Without those liberals, it could easily happen, just as easily as your worst nightmares could come true if there were no conservatives.

---

Wick, the effective rate is not what they are supposed to pay. It is what they actually pay. That means that even with all of the deductions they get, they STILL pay substantially more in taxes as a percentage of their income than does the average taxpayer.

And they should. What I'm saying is cut the deductions. I didn't say cut the deductions for the wealthy only.

No one should have to say "keep business in the country" and yet here we are. You say it's because of outrageous taxes? I say it's because of low labour cost. So low no one could afford to live on that wage here. There should be a law against American companies making goods elsewhere for sale in America. Selling in China? A Chinese factory is fine. Actually, at that point, I don't care where it is so maybe it should be a tax. Yes. Tax American companies that produce goods elsewhere for consumption here. Tax them just enough so that it costs no less than it would have in Pittsburgh or Cleveland or Phoenix. Lowering taxes, and inevitably if we continue on the pattern of "competing" with China in this area, employment standards is not the answer.
Look,I'm not saying a tax hike is necessarily the answer. And if it is, a slight hike for everyone is better than one single group. But tax hikes on the middle class create less spending and slow the economy further. Tax hikes on the wealthy do not, they still have money to spend. Any spending curtailed with the wealthy is out of their own spite or future self-preservation, not survival, as it is with the middle class. The wealthy have to realize they have it better and have attained what they have, at least partly, on the backs of others. Let's face it, if workers were paid dollar for dollar on the money they brought in, or in other words what they're "worth", owners would go broke.
You like to talk about unions, and I rarely disagree with you on that subject, but you don't speak of owner greed, almost as if they've earned the right to be greedy. I hate unions, but without them, I shudder to think where we'd be. Same with business owners. I don't trust them (as a general group, not necessarily every individual, so just don't). I don't trust them to hire solely because they got tax breaks. I don't trust them to keep jobs in the US as long as countries like China are making it easy to obtain slave labour. So tax breaks on businesses aren't the answer. At least, not the whole answer. Raising taxes on the middle class will slow the economy. There's no reason a small tax increase on the wealthy should do the same, unless they get their noses bent out of shape at the idea of helping the economy. Business owners or "Job Creators" love to talk about how they, personally, help run the economy. As soon as it gets tough they shout "don't look at me to fix it". Self imposed double standard, that's all it is.