Official Series Discussion Thread: Vancouver Canucks vs. San Jose Sharks

[Wickabee]

Vigneault needs to go. End of story.

[jlai624]

Sigh****************** that is all.

[09232003]

wow I have not seen too much of this series but what the heck is going on in Vancouver?

[Wickabee]

wow I have not seen too much of this series but what the heck is going on in Vancouver?

They're playing okay, but that's it. At the end of the day they really have looked 'good' for one powerplay, which Kesler scored on in game 2. Other than that, they've been average.
What upsets me about this is that I don't think Schneider was ever hurt. I think management was trying to advertise Luongo for a summer trade and all it did was screw up Schneider, who was red hot until he "got hurt". He played quite well until the third and just dropped it. Schneider should have played the last two games and into the playoffs. Barring that, Luongo should have started game 3. What happened to the "We have 2 #1 goalies and will play the hot hand," talk?

Vigneault hates Ballard for some reason that HAS to be beyond lacklustre performances. Edler has been as bad as or worse than Ballard all season and he's playing high end minutes while Ballard has to watch a guy with zero NHL experience struggle valiantly to keep up.

Then you look at who Vigneault puts on the ice in a given situation. Down 2-1 and pressing, you get an offesnive zone face-off and, because you're looking for a goal and need scoring power, you put out Andrew Alberts and Frank Corrado? Nothing against these two, but they're not going to get you any goals. Where's Garrison? Golden-boy Edler? Hamhuis? Bieksa? Honestly, this happened twice and whether is was AV or Bowness, it's a coaching mistake.

Then you look at the general on-ice attitude of the Canucks. I'm watching guys more worried about short shifts than working for a win. AV is starting every game with 3 lines. Sitting your fourth line at the beginning of the game forces you to play them at the end. Again, no offense to fourth liners, but at the end of the game you want one of your top two or three lines out there. Instead he's tiring the first 3 lines out and placing the pressure of the entire game on the shoulders on Lapierre, Wiess and Sestito. You aren't going to win that way.

This season has been a year of trade-offs. Luongo's one soft goal a game is gone, but we now have at least one brutal defensive breakdown per game.
Sami 'I'm down!' Salo is gone, so Kesler spent the entire year in an on-again, off-again relationship with the IR.
Goaltending and size aren't problems anymore, so they've stopped scoring completely.

At the end of it all I see a team that has run into a wall and a coach that can't guide them over it. This is as talented a group of players as are in the NHL, minus PIT and NYR (on paper, of course) but they aren't playing to my potential, let alone theirs. That tells me the coach isn't being heard and can't get their attention back. That tells me AV has reached his shelf life and this team needs a new coach and maybe a new identity.

[mooneyes]

Are they really that talented? they used to be no doubt. Teams focus on shutting down the smaller (and aging) Sedin's in the play-offs, much like Kessel, that leaves one elite forward, Kesler, but he wears himself out...Roy has been good, but not sure, new team, chemistry? and the 3rd line, the so called fasted line in hockey, maybe so but they rarely finish/score and if they can't do that, they must at least be a physical force which they are anything but.

I have always been a big fan of Bieska, but where is the Big shut down Weber/Suter guy, or the power play quarterback on the point with the big one timer? Bieska handles the puck well, but his production doesn't seem to be there. Do they have a big hitter on D that scares the bejeezus out of forwards? That is an actual question as I don't know.

As for firing AV...another knee jerk reaction?, a need for a scape goat like Luongo a while ago? The NHL, has so much parity, not really AV's fault for personal that simply isn't up to par. Where are the young draft picks with some legit offensive talent to support the Sedin's etc...granted the Canuck's draft later, but still, many other GM's find unheralded gems. Regardless the coach always goes before the GM so it is what it is.

Meanwhile, talented teams?, credit the Sharks, very deep, the Blackhawks! not too mention the young Sens, Habs, Ducks, and those Bruin's and King's. For sure the Sen's before they lost the best d-man and goalie,plus a ridiculous amount of upcoming talent, perhaps they are what the Nucks used to be, but no more...time to rebuild?? Well like you said, a new identity, that comes with new blood.
3 goals in their last 11 playoff games I think? ouch, you need that to win one game. The offense needs an upgrade big time to answer another's about whats going on in Van, that would be it IMHO.

Just some ideas, you know your team far better than me, but they are on the verge of going 8 and zip against 2 big teams that are simply better.

[Wickabee]

Are they really that talented? they used to be no doubt. Teams focus on shutting down the smaller (and aging) Sedin's in the play-offs, much like Kessel, that leaves one elite forward, Kesler, but he wears himself out...Roy has been good, but not sure, new team, chemistry? and the 3rd line, the so called fasted line in hockey, maybe so but they rarely finish/score and if they can't do that, they must at least be a physical force which they are anything but.

The Sedins, Burrows, Kesler, Bieksa, Hamhuis, Garrison...yeah, they're as good a team as any, minus a couple, on paper.
Kesler was good for almost half a game in game 2. Other than that, he's been as average as any other player on the team. As for Roy, you must not be watching this series at all, because he's been non existent offensively and is incapable of clearing an easy puck defensively. He played great in his first few games as a Canuck, but he's disappeared.
The "fastest line in hockey" hasn't actually been together in awhile. That was Raymond-Schroeder-Hansen. Schroeder hasn't played in a long, long time.

I have always been a big fan of Bieska, but where is the Big shut down Weber/Suter guy, or the power play quarterback on the point with the big one timer? Bieska handles the puck well, but his production doesn't seem to be there. Do they have a big hitter on D that scares the bejeezus out of forwards? That is an actual question as I don't know.

Their quarterback at the point with the big one-timer is Edler, which is a coaching mistake in my mind as Garrison does the same job offensively without the defensive liability Edler has represented all season. Bieksa has been trying to up his game all year and his defense has suffered for it. Their biggest, baddest Dman would be Alberts, I suppose, and I'm sure you know what he brings to the table. You're right they need a big, puck handling defenseman. Edler looked to be that last season, but Garrison is slowly making him look less than useless.

As for firing AV...another knee jerk reaction?, a need for a scape goat like Luongo a while ago? The NHL, has so much parity, not really AV's fault for personal that simply isn't up to par. Where are the young draft picks with some legit offensive talent to support the Sedin's etc...granted the Canuck's draft later, but still, many other GM's find unheralded gems. Regardless the coach always goes before the GM so it is what it is.

No. I think the people who were saying it last year when they got stunned by LA was a knee-jerk reaction. I think the people calling for it when the Canucks went on a short losing skid this season was a knee-jerk reaction. I've just watched three games played by a team that should be skating with the Sharks all night long, but is struggling just to keep up. They're not playing they're systems because when they do, it's not working anymore. That's when the coach needs to step up and guide the team. It shouldn't matter what the roster is, no team should be putting on this poor a performance. It's not that they're losing, I could handle that. It's how they're losing. They just seem to give up. Yes, captains needs to lead, but they're not coaches and at the end of the day, Vigneault is not performing in that department, and hasn't for 2 seasons now. Every coach has a shelf-life in every job. We know this. Vigneault has reached his.

By the way, I was never one who blamed Luongo. I was the one saying Luongo played lights out for 3 games and gave them an honest shot to win a fourth, and sucked in 3 games. That means he gave them the opportunity to win it all and they didn't take it. Just like game 2 when Kesler and Luongo together gave them a chance to win it, damn near won it by themselves, and the rest of the team jumped off their backs. To me, that's coaching. I just think they're not listening to him. Not that there's animosity or anything like that, Vigneault just become ineffective.

Meanwhile, talented teams?, credit the Sharks, very deep, the Blackhawks! not too mention the young Sens, Habs, Ducks, and those Bruin's and King's. For sure the Sen's before they lost the best d-man and goalie,plus a ridiculous amount of upcoming talent, perhaps they are what the Nucks used to be, but no more...time to rebuild?? Well like you said, a new identity, that comes with new blood.

Okay, I figured I'd have to point this out at some point because someone wouldn't understand that I'm talking about the Canucks, not the Sharks.

*ahem*

THIS IS NOT TAKING ANYTHING AWAY FROM THE SHARKS! YES THEY ARE A GOOD TEAM AND SEVERELY OUTPLAYING MINE! I'M SIMPLY ANALYZING WHERE THE CANUCKS WENT WRONG BECAUSE THEY ARE A LOT BETTER THAN THIS! MY TALKING ABOUT VANCOUVER IS NOT SOMEHOW A SLAM AGAINST ANY OTHER TEAM!

Clear? Good.

If I meant "rebuild" I'd have said "rebuild". A new identity does come with new blood, but I think new blood is needed. Rebuild would mean a complete overhaul and I don't think the entire core should go. I think Edler needs to be traded now before he really proves he's not the Lidstrom he's supposed to be. Lapierre can walk when his contract runs out tomorrow and, while I wouldn't shop guys like the Sedins, Burrows, Kesler around, I wouldn't say anyone is untouchable either. That's just me.

3 goals in their last 11 playoff games I think? ouch, you need that to win one game. The offense needs an upgrade big time to answer another's about whats going on in Van, that would be it IMHO.

So, they should rethink their identity, but they do need to get some scoring. That would be new blood and, honestly, a lot of it. We have a TON of guys who should be 15-20 goals a year guys and no one is doing it.

Just some ideas, you know your team far better than me, but they are on the verge of going 8 and zip against 2 big teams that are simply better.

Well, the thing I don't agree with is size. The Canucks have upgraded since the Boston Finals in that department and are bigger. They also managed to do it without picking up a guy who can't skate (see: John Scott). The thing is, The Canucks have a first line, a second line center and the rest of the roster is third liners. Their fourth liners are really third line players, so are the guys around Kesler. You simply can't win a game with a first line and 3 third lines. It's just not going to happen.


But yeah, firing Vigneault wouldn't be a knee-jerk reaction. Firing Gillis at this point would be, though he's on a short leash too. Basically, right now I say fire Vigneault and give Gillis 1 season to make conference finals or better. If they don't, the Sedins' contracts are up and Vancouver has some major decisions to make.

Mostly I want to avoid Vancouver being the new Calgary.

[tiger tiger]

There's many levels of messes that could have led to the current state of the Nucks.

1. Lack of communication between Gillis and AV. There's not a lot openly said about this, but I find it odd that the Gillis brings players in, and AV usually benches them or mis-uses their strengths and why they were brought in. Ballard, Booth, and Kassian being prime examples.

2. AV benching Lu for Schneider last playoffs. Don't know if that was double checked with Gillis, because it opens a huge can of worms. Everyone knows Lu wants to be the #1 guy, so if you bench him, you are packing his bags up for him. Even if Lu/Scheid have a great relationship, can it be good for the locker room? These guys just went to the SCF with Lu, and now you're benching him? kicking him out the door?

3. Then I guess Gillis decides to back up AV by signing Schneider to a $4 mil/yr contract??!?!? Seriously??? Was there even going to be an offer sheet??? Look at the direction teams like Chicago and Tampa went. Even Washington. The Leafs, maybe b/c of Burke/Nonis. Even then, evaluate the offer and see what Leafs offer for you in trade. For sure it would have been at least Kadri, Bozak and possibly another pick.

4. The current goaltending controversy. I'm going to assume Schneider was hurt and not ready, because if he wasn't, that's a whole different ball of idiocy. Lu plays great in the first 2 games. Canucks can't score and there are defensive breakdowns. So what does AV do??? Switch goalies!!! That should get more goals!!! I'm convinced that AV completely 100% blindly believes in his own system so much that when it breaks down, it's someone else's fault. I like the guy, he's a great personality, but just can't make the adjustments. He knows what his system needs to be effective, and the parts just aren't interchangeable. So when injuries or adjustments need to be made (quite common in playoffs), he's lost. He can't figure why Elder's mistake are costing him games (b/c you lost Salo who was his defensive bail-out), Bieksa gets injured and the team falls apart b/c the system so desperately needs a RH dman, so they call up Carrado instead of using Ballard. Tanev gets injured and the whole system is screwed. So the system works or it doesn't. You can't tweak it.

5. yes, AV has his favourites. Took him so long to figure out how to use Garrison. Hmmm...a dman with a big shot. We just lost Salo to Tampa...how should we use Garrison???? Finally when Garrison was able to use his shot, he injures/breaks? P. Stastny's foot. So for SJ team that loves to block shots, make them pay for it. But SJ has no problem trying to block an Elder shot. But don't worry defensive minded Bieksa is there to bail him out!!

5. Inability of AV/coaching staff to make adjustments to other teams. He gets out-coached.

Goes back to the first series vs the Hawks in 2010. Canucks dominate and win the 1st game. Lead in the 2nd game, Hawks make adjustments and come back to win 4-2. Apply same formula, and win again by greater margins. Completely lost, the Canucks have no answer and fold. Hawks never score less than 4 goals in the games they win, with the pinnacle being a 7-4 win in game 4. How do you allow 7 goals in the playoffs???? Not the last time this will happen.

Second series vs hawks. Canucks win first game decisively again. Hawks make adjustments. Canucks win the next 2 narrowly. Hawks make further adjustments and blow Canucks out the next 2 games (12-2. Foreshadowing of the SCF meltdowns??). Canucks lose a heartbreaker in game 6, and Toews wills his team into OT in game 7, where a mistake and great shot by Burrows finally "slays the dragon".

Boston in SCF. Bruins score no less than 4 goals in the games they win. 8-1, 4-0, 5-2, 4-0.

In the regular season, Canucks got spanked by the Red Wings 8-3. Final game of the season, 7-2. Good teams do not get spanked that way, even if it's the last game of the season and playoffs are set. Interestingly, AV leaves Lu in net for the entire game, both games.

I figure there's some lost of respect for coach AV in the locker room, and it's showing in the on ice product. Nucks are on the verge of being swept by a team they beat in 5 games, 2 years ago. But SJ have lost Clowe, McGinn, Murray. Maybe Torres is an "X" factor.

Maybe it was getting so close and falling 1 game short in the SCF. Getting that close didn't make the Canucks more hungry. They seemed content to beat Boston in the follow up regular season game, and bow out in the 1st round. They beat LA in the regular season, and don't care if they lose to SJ b/c they're already beat them before. There's no winning instinct. Don't know why, but it's gone.

[tiger tiger]

*ahem*

THIS IS NOT TAKING ANYTHING AWAY FROM THE SHARKS! YES THEY ARE A GOOD TEAM AND SEVERELY OUTPLAYING MINE! I'M SIMPLY ANALYZING WHERE THE CANUCKS WENT WRONG BECAUSE THEY ARE A LOT BETTER THAN THIS! MY TALKING ABOUT VANCOUVER IS NOT SOMEHOW A SLAM AGAINST ANY OTHER TEAM!

Clear? Good.

lol. Awesome.

okay, I'll step where you won't. I don't think the Sharks are a better team. On paper they are worse than they were 2 years ago, and on paper they are worse than they were a month ago.

I've followed the Sharks closely, largely because in my keeper hockey pool league, I've had quite a few of the key Sharks players (Thornton, Boyle, Heatley). I remember when Jumbo used to toy with the Canucks. Then slowly, as the team aged, and traded away picks/prospects for playoff rental players, I saw the Sharks as a diminishing team. Sharks seemed to have this trend of falling behind and then storming back in the 3rd.

BUT, I believe Robinson is the difference maker. He can take less and get more out of it. Just like how Scotty Bowman was an "advisor" to the Hawks, to help Coach Q. I wouldn't be surprised if they were able to get to the Conference Finals with Robinson's help, but eventually you just need the talent. But good coaching is a necessity to win the Cup.

[Wickabee]

Meh, I'm just sick of someone, somewhere, somehow taking some sort of offense when I talk about Vancouver.

Anyway, I think these two teams should constantly be skating to very close finishes. Game 2 was a perfect example of what this series should look like, but they dropped that and didn't show up for the other two.

At the end of the day, the Canucks played one 60 minute game all year. It's a coaches job to motivate a team and make sure the team is getting all it can from each individual. Personally, I think he's inadvertently set up a country club atmosphere. The team is believing the hype, not the reality and he should be bringing them back to earth.

Simply put, he's not doing his job and the proof is in these performances.

[centrehice]

The Sharks are simply taking care of business. They aren't falling for the Orange Twin Cycle. Just stay in one spot along the boards, don't move, one of the Orange Twins will either give you the puck, or run into you with his head down.

If you chase him around, he will destroy you and make you look bad. Approach them from both sides on the back-check in the corner, centre stays and keeps coverage in front of the net, and Voila, you've beaten the One Trick Twins.