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  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by duane1969 View Post
    The Bible is both fact and fiction.

    There are parts that are undeniable fact. Jerusalem really exists. The river Jordan relally exists. There really were pharoahs. Etc.

    On the flip side, there are many things that happenb in the Bibel that are neither provable or logical. Thus fiction.

    Arguing aspects of religion such as free will vs. predetermination is kind of moot. We clearly do what we want. Or do we? LOL
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  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by habsheaven View Post
    Duane you are right, there is both fact and fiction in the Bible. That can also be said for the latest John Grisham novel.
    No arguement from me.

    My .02 is that every religious text, be it a Quran, Holy Bible or Torah, has challengable aspects. All ancient religious texts are written from someone's perspective and influenced by their opinion and underlying motivation. Questioning the reality or legitimacy of one specific religion just shows that there is a hidden agenda.

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  3. #13
    The Bible is written and interpreted by man for man to go along with mans editing of it it is a far cry from what it is intended and this more fiction than fact

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by pantherfan82 View Post
    If he knows before you make the choice then was it really a choice?

    Even if God knows the choise, you as a person still has to choose, so both way, just a thought
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  5. #15


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    Quote Originally Posted by pantherfan82 View Post
    IS THERE FREE WILL OR DOES GOD KNOW EVERYTHING. My logic tells me it cant be both ways. If there is free will that implies that you always have a choice and you decide your destiny and that until you make a choice nobody knew what that choice was going to be. If god knows everything then he knows what you do before you do it. To me that implies there isnt a choice. So which is it? Free will or god knows everything? Seems like it cant be both ways.
    God knows everything. There is also free will. God knows the outcomes of every possible choice you will and won't make. Just because He knows the possible outcomes does not mean that you do not have the free will to make those choices. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive.

    Quote Originally Posted by pantherfan82 View Post
    GOD HAS A PLAN FOR EVERYBODY (GOES ALONG WITH GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING) Ė if god has a plan for everybody and when you are born knows what yours is. Knows what you are going to do etc etc. This causes me to think 2 different things. One when god puts you on this earth he already knows whether you are going to believe in him and ask for forgiveness. So he puts the non beleivers here knowing from day one that they arent going to believe in him and send them to hell? Also when people like hitler was born god knew hey that guy is gonna grow up and be responsible for killing a bunch of jewish people. Why would god do things like this? Am I missing something here? And if god has a plan for you then when people pray what are they really praying for? If god has your plan already made will praying make him change his mind? Like if enough people had prayed would holucost not of happened? These are all questions in my head.
    I understand your questions here, and they are some that many non-belivers have (and that many believers ought to examine). God has a master plan for mankind that we cannot even begin to comprehend. He also has a plan for each of our lives that ends in salvation if we choose to follow that path. However, he has given us the free will to decide which paths to take. It is up to us to decide whether or not we want to seek out His plan to prosper us, to give us a hope and a future.

    Bad things like the holocaust happen because God gives us free will. He is not the great puppet master who dictates each and every decision we make. He can use our foibles, however, to further his master plan.

    I know this won't answer all of your questions, but it will get the discussion going.
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  6. #16
    Here's a question I have. If God has a "master plan" and a believer believes that He has a "master plan", why do so many of those believers pray for "results" rather than just pray for "strength and guidance"?
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  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by habsheaven View Post
    Here's a question I have. If God has a "master plan" and a believer believes that He has a "master plan", why do so many of those believers pray for "results" rather than just pray for "strength and guidance"?
    Ive had this same thought because if God has a plan can praying actually change anything for you?

  8. #18


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    Quote Originally Posted by habsheaven View Post
    Here's a question I have. If God has a "master plan" and a believer believes that He has a "master plan", why do so many of those believers pray for "results" rather than just pray for "strength and guidance"?
    The Bible tells us to pray for results and that God will bless us with results. The Bible also tells us to pray for strength and guidance. Prayer is about humbling yourself before God and communicating with him--acknowledging that He is in control of all things. He rewards all those who are faithful to Him. Sometimes with results. Sometimes not. One thing prayer will do is bring you closer to Him and His will for you.
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  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by habsheaven View Post
    Here's a question I have. If God has a "master plan" and a believer believes that He has a "master plan", why do so many of those believers pray for "results" rather than just pray for "strength and guidance"?
    As someone who was raised in the Baptist church I can atest to the fact that prayer for strength and guidance is common place. Praying for wants/needs is human nature just like buying a lottery ticket or a raffle ticket for a chance to win a car. Because God has a master plan does not mean he takes away our desire for things.

    Also, what you guys are arguing is called predestination. Not many Christians that I have known in my life believe that every single thing in our lives is pre-planned and laid out.

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  10. #20


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    Quote Originally Posted by duane1969 View Post
    As someone who was raised in the Baptist church I can atest to the fact that prayer for strength and guidance is common place. Praying for wants/needs is human nature just like buying a lottery ticket or a raffle ticket for a chance to win a car. Because God has a master plan does not mean he takes away our desire for things.

    Also, what you guys are arguing is called predestination. Not many Christians that I have known in my life believe that every single thing in our lives is pre-planned and laid out.
    Calvinists do.
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